Difficulty = Deity
Civilization = TBD (I am thinking militaristic for one of the traits)
Map = Pangaea
Barbs = Roaming
World Size = Standard

Signed up:
LKendter
open slot
open slot
open slot
open slot

Remember, up to 20 turns per round. Not much should be happening - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

The goal is to try for 25K via worker sacrifices ONLY.
A city will be designated as 25K. That city may NOT build any culture generating buildings. It must build a sacrificial alter.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Sounds like my kind of game. I would like to join. I would vote for the Iro.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
open slot
open slot
open slot

Considering you need only 625 AI Workers, better play against AGR Civs exclusively :lol:
No sign up, lack of time atm.

Holy leader farming, batman!

Holy leader farming, batman!

Is that a signup, or simply a comment?

I lack the time to sign up for another SG, but as a lurker, I second the Iro motion, not least because they can see all the food resources at the beginning of the game. Their UU may be the best in RandR - horse with enslave for 20s, no HP penalty. Only drawback is they are not MIL.

The problem you'll run into is that slaves only yield 2 or 4 culture. You have to capture workers to get the big culture, and there aren't usually too many of those running around. Doc, do upgraded slaves yield the full culture?

do upgraded slaves yield the full culture?
Slaves upgrade to the current available worker level. If you can upgrade them before peasants come into play, then you would get the worker level sacrifice. However, you *can't* sacrifice peasants / laborers.

The high yields for workers really show up with nailing settlers as they split into workers. It also looks like even if you capture higher-level units (peasant / laborer), you get the worker. This game will come down to searching for constant kill changes. Even enslavement units will help with getting 4 culture points for each slave. Earlier warfare against units should hopefully yield lots of slaves.

Still looking for at least 2 players.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
open slot
open slot
open slot

So you play it like 5CC AW, lots of razing and leaving open terrain to lure the AI in and harvest the settler pairs. I believe you are correct about always getting workers on capture. This strikes me as the more fruitful approach, consdiering you would need over 6,000 slaves from combat to get the job done.

Well, I've never even been close to win deity. But it sounds fun though. I could try if its ok with you.

Not a sign up. Interesting idea. You may want to choose a very lousy and small town for 20K, possibly on tundra, as if you can't build culture happiness will be a problem.

Not a sign up. Interesting idea. You may want to choose a very lousy and small town for 20K, possibly on tundra, as if you can't build culture happiness will be a problem.
I was already thinking the same thing. The 25K city will be a location that will only pick up 2 or 3 squares total, but I hope they decent for shields. The city may be a permanent military pump.



Still looking for at least 1 player. I would prefer 2.
This idea has caught a lot of people's eyes. Now if we could just get a couple more to join us. ;)


Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
open slot
open slot

I will sign up and have a go. Gut feel says on a standard map, the AI won't supply us with enough workers, even on deity. 625 captures, which will go up when we can no longer upgrade slaves to workers (at feudalism) is a lot. Captured peasants/labourers/engineers do become workers when they're captured, and peasants/labourers/engineers can't be traded for either. I can see us resorting to gifting our cities, conquering & razing them while they're still empty, then replacing. I'm fairly sure the population of gifted cities changes nationality immediately.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas
open slot

I will try out the Iroquois for the civ.
I upped the world size from small to standard based on Sanabas.

I *DON'T* want to use gifting cities.

If you still want someone else, stick me in the pot...

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor

I will try out the Iroquois for the civ.
I upped the world size from small to standard based on Sanabas.

I *DON'T* want to use gifting cities.

I'd say if you play panagea and just leave a 20x20 killing field open somewhere outside your second ring, the AI will send enough settler pairs to feed the monster. This should also significantly stunt AI development, as they will constantly remain in expansion mode.

3600 AD
I pop a hut and get some boring maps.


3450 AD
We met the Aztecs and their nasty jags. 2-1-2 with blitz, amphibious assaults, trips a GA and travel through forest and jungles easily. I ship them Cultivation and Domestication for Warfare, Ritualism, and $31.


3300 AD
The next civ met is the Inca. No trades are possible.


3050 AD
I give the Mali The Wheel for Pottery and Alphabet.


3000 AD
We meet Persia and give them The Wheel and Pottery for Mysticism and Boat Building.
I ship the Mali Mysticism for Weaving, Fermentation and $3.
I ship Persia Weaving, Fermentation and $35 for Masonry.


==========================

Summary:


Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember: I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-3000BC.zip

The initial starting area:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-625.jpg

Got it will try and play tomorrow, but it may be Wed. I normally play right away in the morning, but I have a job interview tomorrow morning.

IHT: Swap Salmanaca to regular cultivator. (I don't want to wait for the extra 30 shields, with our growth, we can pop out normal cultivators.)
Turn 1: Cultivator builds, start worker housing. Sending cultivator south. Lux to 0%, where it will stay for a while.
Turn 2: The Malinese are fighting barbs.
Turn 3: Found Pig town near pigs, start roading our Wool at the Capitol. Meet the Celts, give mysticism for Sailing and 11 gold. I could not touch scrape mining.
Turn 4: Meet Babylon. The Wheel, Mysticism and weaving gets Scrape mining and 1 gold, and he had more gold.
Turn 5: Caste System pops.
Turn 6: Build worker housing, start TG in Salamanca.
Turn 7: More movement.
Turn 8: More exploring.
Turn 9: Tribal guardian to forge (Can be changed to cultivator at no loss.)
Turn 10: Lee's gonna love this, urbananization pops too. When Writing comes in, we can trade for all the prereqs to dynasitcism.
How the Heck did I play 11. I must have lost a turn in here. Sorry my mind is going.
I would put the next two cities, where I kinda diagram them, but that is up to the team to decide.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bloodbath_LK.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-2510.SAV

We will need to figure out where the 25K sacrifice city goes soon. Pig City has good long-term potential and won't be it.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember: I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.

Reposted as some of the variant rules were missing. :sad:

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I doubt we will initially claim all of these spots.

The southern area expansion in priority order:
Red dot - iron, need I say more? Its first build is culture.
I would be shocked if the AI settled between Quito and us.
Blue dot - nice city for production
Light Green - Tropical fruit is a luxury resource.
Medium Green - it has low growth with high shields.
I think this is our sacrifice city.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-630.jpg

The northern area expansion in priority order:
Light Yellow - horses, need I say more?
Purple Dot - flood plains with Oasis has obscene amount of food.
Brown Dot - another wool source and it is a coastal city.
Light Blue - simply more territory.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-631.jpg

Lurker comment:

Note the value of expansonist in RandR - once popped all the way to Construction from huts (huge map).

On the dotmap: early cities founded on hills tend to mysteriously develop faster and are easier to defend, if necessary.

Reposted as some of the variant rules were missing. :sad:

If you want post count, just say it. :)

I think the hills south to the wool might be good to have. It won't be big due to the hills/mountains/deserts. The only downside is it might be too close to capital and thus makes a wasted spot rank-corruption wise.

Is it allowed by the rules to found the city in 1800AD and sacrifice all 600+ workers in one shot?

On the dotmap: early cities founded on hills tend to mysteriously develop faster and are easier to defend, if necessary.

Good point - I am still not 100% use to 2 shields from hills in RaR. I will redo the dot maps and post again. I suggest Zavior hold of playing until the team agrees on the dot maps.

Well, I just got home. I'd grab that horse spot first, have I told you about my obsession of mounted warriors? :king:

I'd find the city 1 SW of the proposed city spot, on the hill.

This is RandR, Iros don't build Mounties. Their UU is better.

:)

Just a note: The Iroquois don't build Mounted Warriors in RaR. The Sioux do. (Who knew? :p )

:bday: Dr. Seuss

The Iro build Braves (cheap Horseman equivalents.)

Comments from team member BEFORE Zavior plays?

I will stick with the southern map.
The revised northern map is below.
We will need larger, strong towns for the variant.
I don't want to cramp our empire to badly.
I fully expected to see the industrial age.
It will take to long for that many workers to appear.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-631A.jpg

Hmm, do I take 10/15/20 turns?

Hmm, do I take 10/15/20 turns?

I fixed the template for this game to show the below. It is 10 turns. Please wait until I get some dot-map comments before continuing.
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

I would get to the Iron first, then go for the Fruit, then Horses 3rd. Our Braves will be effective until pikes.

I would go Iron, Horses and then fruit.

For the overlap with the capital, I don't worry so much about that as in most games we never get the cities to a full size 20 anyway, although that seems a lot easier with RaR.

I don't see much objection to the new dot-map, so go and play Zavior.

Will play tomorrow after school.

For a game accentuating military, tighter spacing and staying at 15 has a lot to recommend it. Not least in pollution prevention later on.

Southern map is good, the darker green is exactly where my choice would be for 25k as well. On the northern map, I would move the purple (looks pink to me) 1 tile south. I don't think the extra shield from the hill tile offsets losing the oasis for however many turns, as the oasis will help it grow extremely quickly. I'd move it 1 S (1 SW of original location) so it has the oasis immediately, and also picks up the cow later. It will develop into a shield monster, with 6 hills & 1 mountain, and enough floodplain to reach size 15 quickly. Rest look good though.

IHT: Nothing I can do.

Turn1: Exploring

IBT: Wool connected.

Turn2: Trade urbanisation from celts, they already knew writing. Sold urbanisation to babylons for castle system.

Turn3: Exploring

Turn4: Exploring

Turn5: Exploring, again. Lose citizen to disease in salamanca.

Turn6: Disease strikes again.

Turn7: Exploring. We cant afford mathematics, mythology is out too..

Turn8: Exploring

Turn9: Exploring.

We are on turn 40 now.

Diseases delayed cultivator in salamanca, Dynasticism in 15.
Not much else.

Zav, I think you played the wrong save. Take it from someone with experience is such matters...

:blush:

Zav, I think you played the wrong save. Take it from someone with experience is such matters...

:blush:
:confused:
It went from 2510 BC to 2150 BC. Writing went from unknown to known. I don't understand the issue.


===================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor(on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Hmm, maybe I'm paranoid here, but I'm fairly certain I played from romeo's save.

I think he did play from my save. Dynasticism must be really expensive. Wow.

One reason must be, that we only have 2 cities. Diseases delayed cultivator in salamanca.

Got it. Dynasticism is insanely valuable in trades. I can't remember being able to afford to trade for it without having it almost fully researched myself, but even if you only beat a couple of AIs to it you can still get a lot at the trade table. From memory, absolutism is similarly valuable, so I suspect the new settler units being available has a bit to do with it.

Romeo popped Caste and Urban, but Zav traded for the same techs?

2150BC: all good. We're currently extremely weak, if any of our neighbours declare on us we could be in a whole lot of trouble.

2110BC: Sell Urbanisation & Writing to England for 16 gold & 1 worker (couldn't afford the worker with just 1 tech)

2070 & 2030: zzz

1990BC: Salamanca builds Hardy Cultivator ----> Hardy Cult
Buy Dynasticism off the Aztecs for 35 gold, start researching Philosophy.
England is the only civ without Dynasticism, we sell it to them for all 3 of their available techs; Maths, Slavery & Naval Warfare
Revolt, draw 4 turn anarchy.
Reorganise tiles for max food, Pig Town will grow to size 4 and disorder in 1 turn, so I switch it to a normal pioneer and waste a few shields.
Normal Pioneer will have to go around the mountains to reach the iron, so I send the hardy cultivator & escort to the iron.

1950BC: Pig Town builds Pioneer ----> Hardy Pioneer. Send it with escort to the horses to the north.

1910 & 1870: zzzz

1830BC: We're a monarchy

1790 & 1750: zzzz

Our iron city can be founded next turn, our horse city can be founded in 2. There are 2 olive oils to the north, 1 incense to the south, but they will take a long time to connect as there's a lot of jungle in the way. My preference for the next two cities would be Oasis, then Olive Oil. We're 1-3 techs behind everyone, and can't afford to play middleman. We should reach philosophy first though.

Romeo popped Caste and Urban, but Zav traded for the same techs?

:confused: This means either the wrong save got played or somebody's write-up is wrong. Zavior played the right time period, which makes it hard to see how it could have been the wrong save. Zavior doesn't mention getting writing, but we didn't have it before his play, we did have it afterwards. I suspect the right save got played, but Zavior has misreported the trades that were made.

Turn 5: Caste System pops.
Turn 10: Lee's gonna love this, urbananization pops too. When Writing comes in, we can trade for all the prereqs to dynasitcism.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-2510.SAV

And now I'm really confused. I just had a look at the 2510BC save romeo attached, and we DON'T have Caste System & Urbanisation.

Zavior doesn't mention us getting writing, Romeo mentions us getting techs we don't have, WTF???

*edit*
I have also done a large stupid as well, didn't think of asking for clarification. What can foreign workers do before we have built our sacrifice city? The english worker I traded for has built a road since it couldn't be sacrificed. Probably I should have fortified it in Salamanca until the sacrifice city was built. Sorry.

I also think our iron city would do very well as our sacrifice city. It can easily be a small, high production city, and it doesn't have the food to be a large city anyway.

What can foreign workers do before we have built our sacrifice city?
NOTHING. Read the line Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
Since we don't have the sacrificial alter, they will simply be fortified waiting for it.

Turn 5: Caste System pops.
Turn 10: Lee's gonna love this, urbananization pops too. When Writing comes in, we can trade for all the prereqs to dynasitcism.
Romeothemonk picked a bad with "pops". However, everyone is missing a key word in the above: Trade. Writing would get us get the rest of the requirements in trade for Dynasticism.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I see it and it is in the queue.

And now I'm really confused. I just had a look at the 2510BC save romeo attached, and we DON'T have Caste System & Urbanisation.

Zavior doesn't mention us getting writing, Romeo mentions us getting techs we don't have, WTF???


Lee is correct. I use the word pop, to signify that an AI has produced the tech, or we have received it from the GL. I use the words got or researched if we received it. Sorry about the language confusion.

I took a look at the game. We have a naked city and two settlers on the way without escorts. I have found that RaR is *MORE* aggressive early in the game. I had multiple false starts until I understood that a food heavy capitol needed to build military first. Please build more military before the settlers. I don't want another early RaR loss.

1750 BC (0)
I wake up the English worker doing the no-no's and will send it to the mountain to await the alter. Swap PigTown to a Tribal Guardsman.
(I) The Persians start the Hanging Gardens.

1725 BC (1)
We found Grand River to get the iron and it starts a Shrine.

1700 BC (2)
Allegheny is founded to get the horses and it starts a worker.

1675 BC (3)
Up lux for one turn.
(I)Salamanca Hardy Pioneer->Hardy Pioneer, PigTown TG->TG. The Aztecs start the Sphinx

1625 BC (5)
(I)The Inca get 22g.

1600 BC (6)
(I)Allegheny Worker->Worker

1575 BC (7)
(I)PigTown TG->TG, The Celts complete the Hanging Gardens.

1550 BC (8)
Cattaraugus is founded to claim the oasis and starts on a Hardy Pioneer.

1525 BC (9)
Raise Lux for one turn.
(I) Salamanca HP->HP

1500 BC (10)
I left the hardy Pioneer unmoved so the next person can decide where to send it.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-1250BC.zip

1500 BC
I agree that Grand River is the sacrifice city. I switch it to the Sacrificial Alter to avoid it having any culture buildings. The city has been renamed 25K sacrifice. I wake the English worker up and start sending it that way.

The settler will head south to claim the tropical fruit.
(IT) Philosophy comes in and we get it first. I take Classical Education as our free tech.


1475 BC
I get to trade 2 monopoly techs to the AI. When it is all done we gain Bronze Working, Aristocracy, Code of Laws, Mythology, Trade, Construction (mines), Seafaring, Civil Engineering, and $603. We now have tech parity and got a lot of cash out of the AI hands. :D
(IT) The Aztecs complete the Sphinx.


1400 BC
(IT) Babylon builds the Mausoleum of Mausollos.


1375 BC
The nice thing with RaR is there is always a civ that goes a different path. I give Civil Engineering to Persia for Riding and $3.


1325 BC
We decide to test if the sacrificial alter works. ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-637.jpg

Oil Spring is formed and we have tropical fruit.
I ship Classic Education to England and get Polytheism.
(IT) For the moment I give in and give Babylon Riding. This won't last very long, but we have NO offensive troops at the moment.
Persia completes the Great Wall.


1300 BC
Tonawanda is formed. This is the southern blue dot.

==========================

Summary:
Poetry is due in 1 turn. This should hopefully buy us a few more techs.
The only southern dot left is bright green. Gray dot it the only one left up north. After those 2 we should work one getting the cities up to size with production boosters, barracks, build some braves and start the first war. During the wars we can add one or two city spots. This would grabbing the Aztec silver and Mali cotton.
Keep Cattaraugus on working duty for know. Mining is known haven't even connected the empire.


Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I see it. I am stuck in the Lab today working on preparing a set of 10 time consuming samples. I will be all about letting some blood flow, virtual of course, when I can get to this.

Lurker comment:

War now will be like fighting pikes with horse - not impossible, but difficult. Curious as to why you avoided pointy-stick expansion?

Lurker comment:Curious as to why you avoided pointy-stick expansion?

Read the below from the variant rules:
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Just for the Record, I assume that my faovrite AA wonder of the Pyramids is a no go? We are not building anything in our cultural city. Or is it too loose of an interpretation.
I like the Pyramids, Angkor wat, and the Eiffel tower as they let me stay competitive in culture.

Just for the Record, I assume that my faovrite AA wonder of the Pyramids is a no go? We are not building anything in our cultural city. Or is it too loose of an interpretation.
I like the Pyramids, Angkor wat, and the Eiffel tower as they let me stay competitive in culture.

I would like to hear comments from the rest of the team on this. Technically 25K didn't "build" culture as I wrote the rules. It would lower the number of workers to throw on the alter.

We can build everything that doesn't produce culture in Sacrife, I would let it to stay so.

IHT: Swap Salamanca to brave.
IBT Poetry comes in. Poetry and 20 gold gets us monotheism. Poetry and 80 gold gets us ironworking. Poetry, mono, and 20 gold gets us demo. Poetry gets us 60 gold. Research set to drama.
Turn 1: Inca build stonehenge, Mali build slave trade. We build a brave, start a pioneer. Build a worker, start another.
Turn 2: Alleghany gets a monument, starts a worker.
Turn 3: Cattarangus builds a worker, starts a monument.
Turn 4: Salamanca builds a pioneer, starts a shrine so we can build the oracle. Democracy and poetry gets us 13 gold and republic. The Mali get 53 gold.
Turn 5: Monotheism and 45 gold gets us elephant riding. Mining the snot out of Salamanca.
Turn 6: Massive uprising. Buy 2 workers for 250 gold from the Inca. Can we say blood flow?? Rename the workers after my profs. :) Start them on the long walk!!
Turn 7: Build Mauch Chunk.
Turn 8: Aztecs get a 32 gold loan.
Turn 9: England gets a 35 gold loan.
Turn 10: Oil springs gets a riot due to growth and me being stupid. We are building the palace gardens now. We can build the water mill then build a bunch of wonders. A settler is in place in the south. We can build the pyramids soon and the oracle now. Team call.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk941000.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94fun.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-1000BC.SAV

Do we still want to build worker housings? I think their expiration date isn't to far away.

We can build the pyramids soon and the oracle now. Team call.
I think Sanabas agrees with me that Pyramids would build culture in 25K and goes against the spirit of no other culture buildings. Are there any comments from the other players on this? My gut instinct is to prohibit Pyramids.


We can build the water mill then build a bunch of wonders.
The nature of this variant is heavy warfare. I think we need to limit the number of wonders except for the nice ones like free barracks. It is time to ramp up for war. I am not sure how we can even use the settler being built.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

We can do 1-turn braves in Salamanca, gather about 20 and go smack some people around.

lurker comment: should be able to trade for/research mil training soon. Braves could use the xtra hps. Is Sphinx built yet? The first victory will also trigger your GA.

Yep, I agree that culture producing wonders go against the spirit of 25K of pure sacrifice. My vote is no pyramids/angkor wat/eiffel tower/etc.

Worker housing doesn't expire until Feudalism, which is approx 6 techs into the middle ages. I suspect it will be more efficient to just crank out the braves while they're still useful and go kill some people. Only exceptions is if worker housing will result in 2 turn braves instead of 3, 4 instead of 5, or similar. We want to go to war before the enemy has Pikes, their defense of 4 is the best all the way to riflemen.

Got it. Will play after school.


EDIT: Unexcepted event, I'm forced to go shopping :eek:

lurker comment: should be able to trade for/research mil training soon. Braves could use the xtra hps. Is Sphinx built yet? The first victory will also trigger your GA.
I ony built braves out of the capitol, which already has a rax. All the techs needed for the first age are out there, as evidenced by the massive barbarian uprising. When we get Drama next turn, we should be able to trade to the next age.
Attentive care in trading is going to be about the only thing that can keep us up in techs. The good thing is that all the offensive units that are thrown at us have a defense of 3 all the way until tanks. Our UU, and elephants, if we get them will be uber-useful for slave hunting.

"I ony built braves out of the capitol, which already has a rax."

"Built" being past tense; comment pertained to present and future. During the GA, capitol will be producing enough shields to make producing braves there a huge waste of shields. I've never been sorry to build the GL in RandR, although its not essential. Sphinx and Sun Tzu might be even better.

Excellent comment on the long-term usefulness of braves and phants. See Romeo3. ;)

Excellent comment on the long-term usefulness of braves and phants. See Romeo3. ;)
I do not know Bez, I might not be able to find it. :lol:
@Zavior, shopping is bad, but as long as you are not major appliance shopping, it is all good still.

I've never been sorry to build the GL in RandR, although its not essential. Sphinx and Sun Tzu might be even better.
I suggest that you read the variants rules. The below rule invalidates your comment:
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.

Got it. Will play after school.


EDIT: Unexcepted event, I'm forced to go shopping :eek:
Please post updates that are 8 hours later in a seperate post. This time I was lucky I caught the update. I have missed updates via edit before.

Sorry, LK, that's twice now I've done that. Will have to be more careful in the future. GA capitols still make too many shields for cheap units, however.

IHT: Why are we building palace gardens? For tourism? Pre-build? Swap to Oracle. In 9.(I guess this was the meaning of it :) )

Turn1, 975BC
Found St. Regis. Start on forge.
Oil Springs(awfully corrupted city) Monument -> Court(in 60..)
Salamanca: Mining finished, oracle in 9.
Drama gets us:
Mil. Trad + 56g
Drama + 100g -> Currency + Barding

No other profitable trades. I decide not to trade lateen sail, as its kinda useless tech on pangaea. And we wont need it, ever.
We have tech parity(not counting lateen sail, which is useless for us), or ahead of everyone.
I vote to delay oracle until we research Dark ages, however, this can be ghanged.

We are in MA, Dark ages in 11.


Turn2, 950BC
Let the flood flow. Sacrifice gets cultural expansion.
Switch Allegheny from Shrine to barracks.
Cattaraugus: Pioneer -> Forge


Turn3, 925BC
Hire scientist in tonawanda to prevent rioting, also cuts 1 turn from Dark ages :)


Turn4, 900BC
Nothing.


Turn5, 875BC
Aztecs are fighting incans.
Buy Horse breeding from persia.


Turn6, 850BC
Aztecs capture quito from incans, seems like incans are falling
Tonawanda connected to road network, fire scientist. Growth in 7.


Turn7, 825BC
Our pioneer wanders next to barb ship. Sorry.
Tonawanda worker housing -> barracks
Celts start Oracle, too late to make any difference though.
St. Regis connected to road network.
Found centralia little bit northeast of tonawanda, on coast.

Turn8, 800BC
We get FP message.
Pig town forge -> barracks.
Allegheny riots. Have to hire clown.
Most of civs know literature by know.
Mali has 2 workers for trade, but we cant afford them.


Turn9, 775BC
Someone completes Sun tzus.
Oracle in 1. Some civs know Invention and theology.


Turn10, 750BC
Complete Oracle, take Vassalage and Warrior Code.
Trade both for Invention, milling and theology.
Incans have over 5,7k gold. I leave it for next player to decide is it worth to sell techs for pure gold.
Salamanca -> Hvy Horseman

-------------

I hope I didn't delay military too much..

Some pics.

Hope they have fun
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/barbarians.JPG


And some bloody sport
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sacrife.JPG

Zavior, where is the save?
Now 2 LK games are delayed with missing saves. :mad:

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing) Waiting for save AND owes save in another LK game.
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Oh..
Was too concentrated on getting dogs jaws off my feet..

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing) Now has the needed save.
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Working Housing is made OBSOLETE by Feudalism. Please swap 25K sacrifice to forge.

It is a longer-term goal, but I want to get to Absolute Monarchy. It is a cash rush government without war weariness. Our short-term goal needs to be Crop Rotation.

We really need more luxuries. The tropical fruit is close to being connected. That is still only the second luxury for us. I would like to propose another city. Silver is a luxury resource. The city first builds a monument and we have silver. I realize the city has very limited growth potential, but another luxury is worth it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-642.jpg

At some point I would also like to get incense to give us more options for happy buildings.

Got it, will play tonight.

750BC: Switch sacrifice to forge as worker housing expires soon
Switch oil springs to pioneer to claim the silver
Switch Mauch Chunk to pioneer for incense
Theology & Vassalage to Persia for Literature
Literature to Inca for 37 gold & 1gpt (all they had)

730: Milling to Babylon for Naval Spirit
Mauch Chunk to forge, Salamanca to hardy pioneer for the incense instead

670: Salamanca builds hardy pioneer
Naval Spirit to England for athletics
Kill a Barb camp near the incense

610: Oil Springs builds pioneer

590: Research Feudalism, start on Crop Rotation

570: Azrecs establish embassy
Akwesasne founded, starts monument for silver

550BC: Aztecs & Babylon sign peace treaty
Tyendenaga founded, starts monument for incense
Upgrade 1 worker

All our obsolete worker housings have been sold. We have some braves and heavy horsemen amassing near Mali. We still have a lot of room to expand, building a few extra cities will help get our military up to size quicker. Our next tech after crop rotation should be engineering, we should get a monopoly on it.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I see it and it is in the queue

550 BC (0)
(I) Allegheny Forge->WindMill

530 BC (1)
(I)The Babs get 27g. PigTown Pike->Pike

510 BC (2)
(I)Salamanca HHorse->WindMill, Cattaraugus HHorseman->WindMill

490 BC (3)
(I) Crop Rotation->Engineering. Tonawanda HHorse->HPioneer. The Aztecs start Shangri La, the Babs Voyage of Discovery.

470 BC (4)
The Inca get Warrior Code for Mounted Archery.
(I) The Celts come and demand Tropical fruit. I refuse and they declare with two Hardy Pioneers in our lands. Awk Forge->Rax. Mauch Chunk Forge->Rax.

450 BC (5)
Brave kills a Warrior escorting a HPioneer and we have 4 new slaves and a GA. A HHorse kills a TG escorting another one and we have 3 more slaves. The 7 start the long walk. Swap Fuedalism for Clockworks with England. The Mali get Tropical Fruit,176g and 4gpt for Stirrup and a slave. Stirrup goes to the Babs for Monasticism. England gets Stirrup, Crop Rotation, 8g and 3gpt for Fundamentalism. We could get Moanasticism, but I pass.
(I)Salamanca WindMill->American Longbow. The Mali start Leo's.

430 BC (6)
HHorse kills and archer at Armagh giving us another slave.
(I)

410 BC (7)
(I)Aztecs and Celts embargo us. We lose a HHorse to a Crusader. PigTown Pike->Pike.

390 BC (8)
We kill the crusader.
(I) Our HHorse Defends agianst another Crusader and promotes to elite. Salamanca AL->Knight, Cattarugus WindMill->Knight.

370 BC (9)
Withdraw our elite to heal, gathering a stack to start attacking. St Regis Rax->Pike.
(I)Not much.

350 BC (10)
The first of the 9 new slaves arrive ready to go on the altar next turn.

Stirrup goes to the Babs for Monasticism.
You had me scared with the word Monasticism. However, I loaded the save and we don't have it. Monasticism OBSOLETES the Sacrificial Alter and would double the number of workers to kill. This is why the variant prohibits us from ever getting it. If anyone ever buys this tech a replay will be required.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I didn't catch that I put the worng tech in their. Now I forget which tech we got.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-150BC.zip

350 BC
I decrease the science rate, as I don't like negative cash flow and just $15 in the bank.
Without the ability to build happy buildings, I can't justify the misery from the slave market in 25K sacrifice.

Our cities are really hurting from corruption. It may not be the best choice, but I start the FP in Cattaraugus. I realize it is close to the capitol, but we do have 2 more FP type buildings eventually. We really need the OCN improvement.
(IT) The Celts kill a heavy horseman. (0-1)


330 BC
I kill 2 crusaders, and 1 archer. (3-1)

I sacrifice 4 workers and 1 slave. I think that qualifies as a blood fest.
(IT) I don't want 2 wars, so the Aztecs get $20.
I have no idea where the crusader came from, but Pig Town is captured by the Celts. They killed the Ranger in the city. (3-2)


310 BC
Now I see how I missed it. Crusaders are a move 3 unit.

Pig Town is recovered and we get $37 for our troubles.
I sacrifice 3 workers.

I kill 1 crusader. (4-2)


290 BC
One last slave is sacrificed. I need to generate some of my own kills.

I kill 1 archer. (5-2)
(IT) England completes the Colossus.


270 BC
I kill 2 archers, 1 spearman, 1 tribal guard and 1 pioneer. (9-2)
I got 3 new slaves.

It is time to go monopoly tech trading. :D
I give Mali Engineering and get Alchemy, Heraldry, and $75. Persia gives us Scholasticism and $10. England gives Castle Building and $40. The Aztecs give Siege Warfare and $65. The Inca are worthless to trade with. I have to through in $110 to get Babylon to give us Guilds.

I sign peace with the Celts, as I would prefer to use our GA to become a powerhouse. We don't have the troops to move forward. I give them Engineering and $5 and get Astronomy. That was out of reach before.

We are at least back in the tech race.


230 BC
(IT) Babylon completes Voyage of Discovery.

210 BC
England gets Astronomy and $5 for Scientific Method.

More blood flows as I sacrifice 2 slaves.


190 BC
I sacrifice 3 workers.
(IT) We get a free embassy from Babylon.


170 BC
(IT) The Mali can have their token $20. I don't want another war until after the GA. I know they have multiple elephants.

==========================

Summary:
I would like to use the GA to get to highly productive empire, and then start playing oscillating wars. We also need science buildings in the strong cities like Salamanca.

Sorry Romeo, but you will have to suffer a builders turn. Our long-term viability depends on getting happy buildings, production boosters, along with money and science buildings.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Ah Nuts. Peace again.
Just kidding. Will try and throw together a nice science/powerhouse city or two. I see we haven't built the Palace gardens, so I will probably throw that down to get some belated tourism.
Just a question for the team. Are we going to research, steal, buy, or pointy stick our way through life?
I am leaning towards the capitol becoming an uberscience city, not quite as much as St. Pete in Zav1, but similar.
Just so you all know, I will not hesitate to snag a pioneer pair or two if they trespass on our sacred lands, especially when they will declare the war. :evil:

I will not hesitate to snag a pioneer pair or two if they trespass on our sacred lands, especially when they will declare the war.
Well the Celts are coming through, but we just signed peace with concessions. The Mali would eat us alive. Let's save the bloodlust until we have a stronger empire. I actually lost a city to the Celts. :eek:
Mali elephant stacks wouldn't be fun.

I see we haven't built the Palace gardens, so I will probably throw that down to get some belated tourism.


I suggest you check the most recent save. I build that and the forbidden gardens. I would like to get academy / the academy built during the GA.

This is why I don't want a war. I don't want to waste our 2 biggest cities building units to keep the empire alive.

I suggest you check the most recent save. I build that and the forbidden gardens. I would like to get academy / the academy built during the GA.

Sorry LK. I am at the office now. Free internet usage, but no gameplay. Gotta love School Rules :p . I will not be able to download the save until tonight, and it is behind Mldr05 and MM05.
I just didn't see that they were built in the turnlogs. Sanabas swapped from them last time and no one said a thing, so I assumed that they hadn't been built.
I will deliberate for a while as to what to do, and hopefully we come out with a win/win situation. :crazyeye:

I just didn't see that they were built in the turnlogs.
I will admit I don't report what's built well in the turnlog. To me the only important builds to note is wonders. At some point we need to start snagging some.

IHT: Swap salamanca to Academy. Get ready for a war with the Celts. I know Lee is gonna hate me for it, but I cannot pass this oppurtunity up.
IBT: Aztecs wipe out the Inca.
Turn 1: Cattaragus Toll House to Academy. Gear up for fun.
IBT:
Turn 2: Salamance builds an academy, starts Knights templar. I calculate that each of us needs to get 12 slaves every 10 turns. I must do my part. The Celts declare on us. Heavy horse whups pioneer trio and viola, 120 culture. Knight kills another pair and we get another 120 culture (2-0).
IBT: Not much
Turn 3: Catarangus builds academy, will do some 1 turn pikes for a while. Knight kills archer. Heavyhorse kills archer and gets a slave. Elite brave kills archer. (5-0). Vet brave kills vet archer gets slave. (6-0). Upgrade spear to pike in a border town.
IBT: Celts advance
Turn 4: Heavy horse gets a workout. He kills a Celt knight (7-0).
IBT: Gunpowder comes in. We trade it to the Mali for Education, architecture and world map and 10 gold. Gunpowder and 70 gold gets Navigation from Aztecs. Gunpowder and World map gets us physics and 30 gold from Babylon. England gives us Usury for architecture. Education gets us Chivalry and 37 gold from England. We are only down map making and of course monasticism.
Turn 5: Start research towards printing press. Start Cattarangus on a town clock after it has popped 3 pikes. Sacrafice 6 workers. unsure on a slave, as it only has 4 culture.
IBT: The Mali build Leos.
Turn 6: Knight kills Celtic something or other. (8-0).
IBT: Not much
Turn 7: We built the Knights templar in Salamanca. Mali build the Silk road, we start a guild hall in salamanca. Longbow redlines and dies to spear. (8-1). Pike kills Spear (9-1).
IBT: Trade world maps with the Xman and snag 48 gold in the process
Turn 8: Buy a worker from Persia for 130 gold. He starts the long walk. Hack apart 2 slaves on the altar.
IBT: Celts build Angkor Wat.
Turn 9: Elite brave kills a crusader, nothing happens (10-1). Hack apart another slave for only 4 culture. Knight kills claymore (11-1).
IBT: Nadda
Turn 10: Lee is not gonna like me for this, but I notice now that lux can be dropped to 10%. This saves us some serious cash.
The Celts will talk but I would stay at war with them for a while to leader fish with. I am building temples to try and get us Chichen Itza. 3 temples and 300 shields later, a free courthouse everywhere. It is best to let the Celts come to us, then pick them off once they are deep in our territory. The Jungles and forests are great for stopping them cold next to our cities.
Sorry on the war Lee, but I only built 4 units during my war, all of them pikes, but I couldn't resist the workers and slaves. I just like RaR wars a lot, and cannot stand peace. Had I developed my playstyle sooner, I would have been more help in LK88.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94f11.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Lk9450ad.jpg
And a little bit about my kill zones, they have always gone to the black spots.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/killzones.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-50AD.SAV

Can you upgrade slaves to workers, then sac them for 40? Won't work after Abs Mon, even if it does now. Will eventually need to create an open kill zone to lure settler pairs.

Will play after school.

GAME HALTED - Read the LK houserule below. We just got concessions from the Celts. I need time to decide what to do.
There was NO threat from the Celts, and this was just abusing the settlers walking through our territory.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

GAME HALTED - Read the LK houserule below. We just got concessions from the Celts. I need time to decide what to do.
There was NO threat from the Celts, and this was just abusing the settlers walking through our territory.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Sorry LK. There were 3 Celtic archers 1 tile next to our capitol when I got the game, and we had just 1 pike in the capitol. There were also 2 settler pairs in our territory.
It may have been my fault, but I considered the 3 archers next to our capitol a real threat. The 3 archers stayed around our capitol, until they moved down towards a temporarily underdefended pig town (1-brave). Also this move towards Pig Town was not the shortest method out of our territory. (It took the 3 turns to organize enough trooops to knock off 3 archers stacked on a mountain). In my log, I focused more on the settler pairs for their immeadiate payoff in terms of winning, but the archers were actually my largest strategic concern.
I personally consider the demanding cities/taunting of the enemy to get them to declare to break a peace deal abusing the peace. The Celts did it willingly with 11 turns left on their deal. I had no communication with the Celts other than the move it or lose it. I admit I was focused on the settler pairs, but I was concerned about the 3 archers hanging around our capitol. That is why our capitol now has 2 units, and I always advocate 2-5 units in the capitol unless we own our own continent.
If you want a replay, which I understand, I can play tonight ~8PM my time.
I didn't mean to cause problems with that turn set.

I know Lee is gonna hate me for it, but I cannot pass this opportunity up.
I am still trying to decide what to do. I keep reading the above line and it sounds like you planned to break the peace treaty the second you got the game. Can you explain what this was about? This occured turn 0 before you saw the strange archer patterns.

@All including lurkers - did the above 10 turns seem like peace treaty abuse?

You got a discount on tech so ya, it was against the rules. You cannot attack a civ for the full 20 turns, nor can you engage in actions with the intent of having them declare war.

The fact that you can get anything from a peace deal and then do the same thing a turn later makes me feel this is one of the bigger exploits in the game

Lurker Comment:

My experience with Romeo is he likes to be at war at all times in RandR. Seems like he was oblivious to any benefits that would accrue from this perticular declaration. The celts were just the most convenient outlet for his thirst for blood. The LK is going to kill me could pertain to the advice LK gave that he would like to spend the GA on infra.

Bez is the most accurate. I never really want peace in RaR.
@Greebley, If the Celts had moved it, it would have been a moot point, I just wanted to know the intention of the archers. I have been burned before by the AI ignoring the 20 turns of peace rule, and wanted to remove a military threat to our core ASAP. If they moved, no war, but they wanted to fight. And they declared without me goading/demanding of them.
The Mali only had settler pairs in our territory, making them feel like I would be just settler hunting. I really want war as much as possible, as I can keep a fairly strong kill ratio throughout, and thus waste the AI production bonus, while farming MGL's and slaves. In RaR I like to almost play defiantly all the time. :crazyeye:
I would personally consider it abuse if the 3 archers were not there next to our capitol, but if LK wants a replay, that is certainly ok by me.
Basically I see this as a question of are 3 archers a threat to our core. I said yes. I would do the same thing if the Mali had 3 archers, or the Aztecs or whoever.

I don't find this to be any different than making a huge gpt deal for tech right before you give an AI the boot that you know they will declare on. I find that to be much more of an exploit than this, even though they are technically the same thing.

It would be an exploit if we made a deal for tech or got a discount for tech and then WE broke the peace by declaring war before twenties turns were up. However, in this case the AI is declaring war and not us. We asked them to remove their troops and they had the choice of moving them or declaring. The AI will not declare if they don't think it is to their advantage and it doesn't do anything to our rep because they are the offending party.

I think for me, that is the big difference, did we declare or did they. In this case they did and we should be in the clear.

The second issue for me, and why I tolerate what looks like a big exploit is the answer to the question "Does the AI do this or can it do it?". The answer is clearly yes, it can do this and does do it. How many times do we avoid making big gpt deals to keep the AI from declaring on us and getting out of the deal? How often do we tie other things to such deals to lessen the chance of the AI doing so? To me that takes it form bieng an exploit to being something that would be dastardly, but not exploitive.

Summary - The AI declared and ended the peace, not us. Don't see that it applies. The AI does this all the time, so it isn't a true exploit.

Summary - The AI declared and ended the peace, not us. Don't see that it applies. The AI does this all the time, so it isn't a true exploit.


Additionally, the AI was asked to leave (I am making an assumption on this as the turnlog does not specifically state how the state of war was entered into); giving it the opportunity to keep the peace. Turn 3 Romeo killed the archer stack having only knocked off 2 settler pairs in the preceding turn. This could be an attack of opportunity while moving the forces into position to remove the threat perhaps? Looking at the log pessimistically the war could have been a plan to abuse the breaking of the peace treaty. It's hard to tell from the information at hand to tell which was intended.

Perhaps a better explanation of the reasoning for going to war in the turnlog would have been appropriate. Three archers next to an under-defended capital does pose a threat to the empire. If the capital were better defended perhaps the Celts may have left when asked to do so?

I am not happy with it, but the turn stands. The good point is this isn't that different from buying a lot for GPT and demanding to leave. The problem is I can't remember the last time any player in the LK series did this. I saw the units wandering around, but I accepted it because we just signed peace. It was a long time ago, but I did see the AI restart a war almost instantly.

I know Lee is gonna hate me for it, but I cannot pass this opportunity up.
You are right, am I not happy that we didn't spend the GA concentrating of getting up to speed with needed buildings. I realize not a lot of units were built, but that doesn't mean we won't be forced to due to the war.

Each war makes it harder to sign peace with that civ, and we are in this game to play oscillating wars. Until rails arrive we could lose this game if too many civs turn on us.

@ DwarvenZerker, the reason for hitting the settler pairs first was their position. At the time I got the game, we had 2 semi-direct paths between Cattarangus and Salamanca. The Celts blocked both routes, and our attack units were in Cattarangus, and I was trying to get them towards the archers. On turn 2 the archers had moved 1 turn away from the capitol towards pigtown. On the IBT of turn 2 they moved to the mountain tile 1 move away from Pigtown. On turn 2 the archers were not an immeadiate threat, but were a short term strategic threat heading towards a very underdefended pig town. (The aforementioned 1 brave)
I would have waited until ~turn 5 normally if I wanted to break the deal intentionally on my terms, but the times and positions required quicker action. I would have been happier with the Celts moving instead of declaring, seriously, so I could have beat on England instead.

Each war makes it harder to sign peace with that civ, and we are in this game to play oscillating wars. Until rails arrive we could lose this game if too many civs turn on us.
We have a very limited window of time yet before Political philo. Unless we nuke an opponent, I have never seen more than 10 turns without talking peace. One of the nice things about RaR is that the 4 pikes I built will be the best defender for a whole age yet, and are not obsolete until Rifles and cavs show up. We will need the pikes anyway, and I think wasting a total of 3 shields on 4 pikes is better than wasting around 30 shields on 2 infra builds in Catarangus.
I imagine that the use of Golden Age is gonna be a difference between our styles. Luckily we will be just fine :D , as I am a real optomist, especially after seeing the recovery in LK88.

The good point is this isn't that different from buying a lot for GPT and demanding to leave. The problem is I can't remember the last time any player in the LK series did this.This has been done multiple times in LK series games. The last I can think of is Microbe but I think it was done several times in LK87. I will look back in the turn log to see if I can find a specific incident to point to.

Unless we nuke an opponent, I have never seen more than 10 turns without talking peace.
I have seen more then 10 turns. It happened in one of my culture games where I couldn't get peace during any of the 10 turns.


I imagine that the use of Golden Age is gonna be a difference between our styles. Luckily we will be just fine :D , as I am a real optimist, especially after seeing the recovery in LK88.
My war style is very different. I like to set up for strong overwhelming force. My battle with the Celts was to tight for my taste. I rarely lose a city, even if I got it back.

I agreed with Meldor's actions to get our GA going. To me the GA is the time to really push for the needed buildings. I personally hate war during a GA as is distracts me from creating a powerhouse civ. However, I then prefer ASAP peace and start building.

This has been done multiple times in LK series games. The last I can think of is Microbe but I think it was done several times in LK87. I will look back in the turn log to see if I can find a specific incident to point to.

I wrote that badly. My point was the last time of the peace treaty and another war ASAP. The GPT trick is common, and I am not questioning that.

OK, can you explain why you think there is a difference between one and the other?

lurker comment:

The unique feature of this game is the necessity to utilize the enslave feature while you can still upgrade to workers for sacrifices. Though I also prefer to develop infra during GA's, I also like to have a couple temporary cities that can get my military up to snuff while the big cities are developing. And no, LK, ideally such cities do not include the capital, Zav1 notwithstanding.

;)

OK, can you explain why you think there is a difference between one and the other?

I think the biggest differences are that you can get things for free and that you can redeclare war without repercussions (rather than needing to get them to do it).

Things like [Edit: demanding] an almost dead civ for its last 3 island cities and then immediately redeclaring war and destroying the capitol are pretty abusive as there is no penalty for doing so, IIRC.

One could argue the case that as long as the AI is declaring the war is a lot less abusive. I am guessing that is the point that you are trying to make. As you say it is like the make a deal and order them to leave.

The rule as it was written doesn't differentiate between who declares war. It could be rewritten to say that the player can't redeclare war if he gets something from the peace treaty (he can try to get the AI do the war declaration).

I am not sure. Will the AI give up a city or tech and then turn around and declare war when you ask him to leave? I am hoping the AI is not that dumb.

Things like [Edit: demanding] an almost dead civ for its last 3 island cities and then immediately redeclaring war and destroying the capitol are pretty abusive as there is no penalty for doing so, IIRC. This is a different case and if you declare, it will damage your rep. However, if you demand they move their troops, then it is they who declare and not you, and your rep is intact.

I see no difference between this and buying expensives techs for 100's of gpt and then demanding they leave so they declare. Either way you are taking advantage of what the AI percieves is your weakness. And, if you have fought with an AI enough, it will declare if you look at it wrong, making this easier to do.

If you ask for towns or a tech in a peace treaty (giving them nothing) then you can redeclare war and it DOESN'T damage your rep. I believe that is the main exploit. I haven't tried it recently but it certainly used to be true.

It may damage it if you give them gpt or a lux. Not sure on that. As far as them declaring, I agree with you. It is no different than making a gpt deal.

Starting to play now.

IHT: Nothing for me.
IBT: Aztecs declare on babs.
Turn1, 70AD: Few worker actions.

IBT: Celts complete Shangri La
Turn2, 90AD: Kill celts, lose Hvy Horseman to claymore.(3-1)

IBT: Printing Press comes in, but its already known :cry:
Print +100g -> english for banking
Print + 22gpt -> babs for matchlock
Aztecs complete Chichzkszen itza
Research to metallurgy, in 13.
Peace with celts. I dont want to lose cities.
Matchlock + Print -> celts for pol. philo

Turn3, 110AD: Salamanca -> The academy
I'll concentrate on infra since we do have GA on.
IBT: Nothing

Turn4, 130AD: Few worker actions.
IBT: Nothing

Turn5, 150AD: Few worker actions.
IBT: We complete the academy, start HE

Turn6, 170AD: Few worker actions.
IBT: Mali & Aztecs ally against babs. Our GA ends. Metallurgy in 12, bah. Making +9gpt

Turn7, 190AD: Again, workers.
IBT: Hmm.. Why do malinese rally their troops inside our borders? They're at war with babs, that might be the reason.

Turn8, 210AD: Erm.. Nothing?
IBT: More malinese

Turn9, 230AD: Workers.
IBT: Malinese

Turn10, 250AD: Workers, again.


-----
I'm very disappointed with myself. I dont know why, I just am. The feeling that I could have done more ...

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I don't like loading the game and seeing Salamanca (the capitol) in riot. It should have built temple, bazaar, or arena to improve happiness before Heroic Epic. We suck for science output. A library and university should both be higher priority in the capitol above Heroic Epic.
Tonawanda is about to riot. Pig Town is one turn from losing pop due to unhappy, but it is building a school? It should have been already working on a happy building and could have completed a temple already. Pop is very difficult to get back in RaR.

I am totally baffled by the choice of Metallurgy for the next tech. We should have either went for Theory of Warfare hoping for a monopoly tech, of Absolutism for Absolute Monarch that is the BEST government for making war.

We are at peace with the Celts, but we have 4 units OFF the road net near a city of these. Troops should always be on the road net for maximum flexibility.

Zavior, we can't afford these types of mistakes at deity.

While 25K can't build culture building, a marketplace gives one content face in RaR. This is a rare chance to improve happiness without culture.

I'm very disappointed with myself. I dont know why, I just am. The feeling that I could have done more ...

I acknowledged my mistakes. I'm sorry about them, but for me it seems I cant do any better.. I felt like playing and still being somewhere else at same time..
Sorry.

I can replay tomorrow, if its ok, maybe I can concentrate better then.
Or, maybe I should take a little break from civ since I feel everything I do goes wrong, gah.

Zav, from my experience in inheriting your turns in Zav1, I just think you're trying to play a little above your difficulty level. Some folks who have played with me in other SG could fairly point out that you're not alone there. :)

This is a great way to learn fast, but it may be too much to learn all at once. Not sure if it's just the adjustment to RandR or civ basics. Maybe you could try some monarch/emperor games first?

I can replay tomorrow, if its ok, maybe I can concentrate better then.

NO replay will happen. Mistakes aren't replayed - period. The only time I have done a replay is a violation of a variant rules or a severe break on the houserules. Your turn stands.

Zav, from my experience in inheriting your turns in Zav1, I just think you're trying to play a little above your difficulty level. Some folks who have played with me in other SG could fairly point out that you're not alone there. :)

This is a great way to learn fast, but it may be too much to learn all at once. Not sure if it's just the adjustment to RandR or civ basics. Maybe you could try some monarch/emperor games first?


Well, thats the problem. I cant seem to decide what difficulty to play. I'm struggling at deity, but can play emperor without problem. At dg, with any luck I can win 50/50 of time.(In c3c, that is) You're right, this seems to be out of my reach. But that turnset, I feel like I played under my skills.
I'll drop out if thats ok, I dont want this game to fall to my stupid mistakes.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Hey Zav, I have no problem with you playing. I make mistakes too. It is Lee's call, but I would like to have you stay.

Hey Zav, I have no problem with you playing. I make mistakes too. It is Lee's call, but I would like to have you stay. :confused: It is Zav's call. I don't know why you are saying it is Lee's call. It read to me like he already dropped.

Well, if you can stand my turns, I might aswell continue.
I'll think about this more. I'll let you know..

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (status unknown)
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Well, thats the problem. I cant seem to decide what difficulty to play. I'm struggling at deity, but can play emperor without problem. At dg, with any luck I can win 50/50 of time.(In c3c, that is) You're right, this seems to be out of my reach. But that turnset, I feel like I played under my skills.

From this you seem to be a Demigod player. If you know you are struggling at deity, this game seems a bit too much for you.

You may want to read Arathorn's Guide to Variants in the Strategy forum. He gives some analysis of how much difficulty some variants bring.

I noticed you opened a AWE game. If you can't comfortably beat deity, that would be too difficult.

We'll see. It could be too hard, see if that game lasts till my turn :lol:

In my opinion anyone who plays demigod can become a deity player simply by spend more time on their decisions. Go through the towns, examine what they need and switch builds if necessary, make sure workers are working optimal squares (not every turn obviously, but at least once or better twice in a 10 turn period) When choosing a tech look at the civopedia (in RaR) find something you want to aim for and pick it (stating your reason).

By the time you know enough for Demigod, it is possible to play Deity level if you are careful about what you do, IMO. If time is the limiting factor then try playing 5 carefully instead of 10.

By the time you know enough for Demigod, it is possible to play Deity level if you are careful about what you do, IMO. If time is the limiting factor then try playing 5 carefully instead of 10.

I think the word careful sums up things well.

I have developed the habit of zooming into the city each build so that I get a sense for when they need happy buildings, etc. I have even slowed or speed up growth based on what I am building.

lurker comment:The unique feature of this game is the necessity to utilize the enslave feature while you can still upgrade to workers for sacrifices.

We passed that point as soon as we researched Feudalism. Slaves upgrade to labourers after that, and AFAIK labourers can't be sacrificed.

Got it, will play tonight, and apologies for lateness as per LK93.

"We passed that point as soon as we researched Feudalism. Slaves upgrade to labourers after that, and AFAIK labourers can't be sacrificed."

Right you are. Three strikes and I'm out. You're gonna have to find someone else to give you bad advice from now on. :lol: Good luck!

250AD: Do some reorganising, to prevent Pig Town from starving, and Tonawanda from rioting. Switch some builds, 25k to marketplace, decide on 1 more town to use both wool & flood plain NE of salamanca.

260AD: Salamanca builds Heroic Epic
Lux to 20, fire a few specialists
Find a worker on a goto order to I don't know where, and cancel it.

270: zzz

280: Research Metallurgy ---> Absolutism
Drop lux back to 10 so we can afford 20% science. 10% sci = 29 turns, 20 = 15 turns

290: Discover we have a 60% cap on our rates. At 60% tax, we will be broke in 4 turns, so time to get some money. Aztecs are most powerful with most teritory, so they pay the most for our only spare lux. 12gpt for tropical fruit.

300: Aztecs extort 21 gold & map
Mali build Gutenberg's Bible
Caughnawaga founded

310: We're still going broke, just slower. We don't need our only camel, so I sell it to Persia for 260 gold & 29 gpt. We're no longer in danger of going broke.

320: zzz

330: Celts & Mali ally v Babylon
England & Mali ally v Babylon
Persia builds great Library

340: zzz

350: Mali builds Copernicus' Observatory

Celts are still our best option for war, our peace treaty expires in 3 turns. They are currently sending offensive units across our territory to hit Babylon, without an escort. Silly them. Celts are allied with Mali though, if Mali joins in against us we're in trouble. Mali doesn't have incense, and we don't need ours at the moment (it's not a lux in RaR), so if we war with celts we should sell incense to Mali first to discourage alliances. We can get 5-600 gold for it. There is a stack of 12 cavaliers in Salamanca ready to go and kill things. Absolutism is due next turn, and includes the best warmongering govt.

Are you aware of that camel is resource, which might disappear and trash our rep?

Are you aware of that camel is resource, which might disappear and trash our rep?

Sure am. Risk of that particular resource disappearing sometime in the next twenty turns is extremely low though. No idea exactly what chance, but back of the envelope says well under 1%. If we don't take that chance, we go broke. Easy choice.

Sure am. Risk of that particular resource disappearing sometime in the next twenty turns is extremely low though. No idea exactly what chance, but back of the envelope says well under 1%. If we don't take that chance, we go broke. Easy choice.
Well I disagree with "easy choice". I really don't like risking our rep like this. This is far to earlier in the game to have a destroyed rep.

If our economy sucks this bad we really need to concentrate builds to improve our economy.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior (status unknown)
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I did notice a few key things.
1) I don't know where it happened, but somehow we are now seriously behind in tech. I have a feeling pointy-stick is now forced as part of the tech strategy. Even in a heavy war game that isn't a position I like.

2) We are an old fashioned monarchy from the ancient age. The rate cap is 60%, rampant corruption, and each city civs 2 free units. Absolute Monarchy will give us a 90% work cap. This alone is huge. The corruption drops to Problematic. Cities (size 8 to 15) will now give 4 free units. This revolt alone will do wonders for the economy.

3) Our number one problem IMHO is lack of workers. 25K sacrifice is working *4* undeveloped tiles. Allegheny is working *6* undeveloped tiles. Several other cities are just as bad.
We need to build more workers - period. 14 cities with just 12 workers is downright horrible.
This seems happen to often in games with no free labor.

4) Bazaars and marketplaces need to take priority over units. Both of them boast income and luxury spending. Marketplaces have the bonus of one content face. Marketplaces allow for banks and the central bank small wonder (interest like Wall Street in the standard game).

5) We need to have more than one older unit defending the 25K city. The loss of that city would be a major disaster. Can we get a few more pikeman down south?

6) Are the Celts the next target? We need more luxuries. We need the better units from Saltpeter. Notice something interesting along the English border?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-646.jpg

I would smackdown the English soon. If you don't feel comfortable with the war, just build a few units, and leav it to me to really pound them.
I agree with Lee, we need a major infra push, and more than that we desperately need a better form of government.
A mid-tirm goal would be keeping a force of horse type units around, and getting us to cavalry before the AI gets Automatic weapons. If this can occur, We can really lay down the hammer.

A mid-tirm goal would be keeping a force of horse type units around, and getting us to cavalry before the AI gets Automatic weapons. If this can occur, We can really lay down the hammer.
We have 12 cavliers in the capitol right now. We are getting in position for another smack-down.



I agree with Lee, we need a major infra push, Now there is something I never thought I would hear. ;) ;)

I see it and it is in the queue.

Well I disagree with "easy choice". I really don't like risking our rep like this. This is far to earlier in the game to have a destroyed rep.

I think we different views of what's an acceptable risk. I'd put risk of resource disappearing at a similar level to risk of someone else starting a war that cuts off our trade route. If I'm not prepared to run that risk, I wouldn't trade any of my resources or luxes ever.

If our economy sucks this bad we really need to concentrate builds to improve our economy.

Agreed. It wasn't possible to improve the economy fast enough without circumventing the rate cap, which definitely is against the spirit of having a rate cap. Bazaar and marketplace in salamanca improved it some, extra wool will improve it more, and Absolutism will be a big help. In 20 turns we should still be getting 29gpt from Persia with no risk of a rep hit as well.

350 AD (0)
I wake up the Cavaliers and move them towards England. I notice we don't have an embassy with them so I build one. They have 1 gold, 1 incense, 2 saltpeter, 1 iron and 1 horse. Unfortunately, the horse are way to the south and the second salt is well into their lands. Their is a lot of jungle between us and the first city so we might take a hit. I would also like to get some defenders on top of our silver as well and protect the front line cities. I may not get it done before the end of this set, if not Romeo will thank me. Lower Science.
(I) WE get Absolutism and the Only tech we have a chance of getting a monoploly on is Music Theory. Having looled over things before the IT, I decide to revolt now. We draw 4 turns. We get a riot and I scroll ahead to settle the other cities.

360 AD (1)
We trade the Aztecs 349g and 22gpt for Theory of Warfare. ToW and 8gpt goes to Babylon for Magnetism. Swap research to Leadership as a number of AIs now have Music Theory.
(I)

370 AD (2)
Worker moves.
(I)

380 AD (3)
More of the same.
(I)

390 AD (4)
One last time around the block.
(I)

400 AD (5)
We are an absolute monarchy. I re-arrange things and Leadership is due in 10 at 40% science. We have lux at 10% and we have an excess of 19gpt.
(I) The Mali demand and get 22g. Salamanca Pike->Bank, Tonawanda Bazaar->Halberdier, St Regis Bazaar->Pike, Centralia WaterMill->Harbor

410 AD (6)
Swap Caughnawaga to a Harbor.
(I)Cattaraugus Cavalier->Bazaar, Mauch Chunk Pike->TownClock, Caughnawaga Harbor->Port, PigTown Cavalier->GuildHall

420 AD (7)
(I) Allegheny GuildHall->Laborer, Centralia Harbor->Port, Tyendenaga Port->MajorPort.

430 AD (8)
(I)Tonawanda Halberdier->GuildHall, St Regis Pike->Pike, Akwesasne Cavalier->Forge

440 AD (9)
(I) Salamanca Bank->EstatesGeneral, Cattaraugus Bazaar->Market, Oil Springs Bazaar->TownClock

450 AD (10)
I did mostly builder turns. We need to decide where we want to build the Summer Palace.

15 Cavaliers and 1 Templar waiting to go after England.
There is at least one up to date defender in the frontline cities.

Three turns to Leadership, the Babys still don't have it, we should be able to trade it.

Have fun Romeo.

Actually Meldor, Lee is up. He can kick off some warring first, or use that special builder talent he has.
This one is looking pretty now.

I think we different views of what's an acceptable risk. I'd put risk of resource disappearing at a similar level to risk of someone else starting a war that cuts off our trade route.
I will agree we have a different view of acceptable risk. If some deal burns me, and I have been burned with depletion, I tend to be very leery of using it in the future.


Actually Meldor, Lee is up. He can kick off some warring first, or use that special builder talent he has.
This one is looking pretty now.
A lot will depend if we completed the road to England and have settlers on standby. I would really hate to clear the sugar and salt just to give it to another AI.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior (status unknown)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-550AD.zip

This is just plain crazy. In the game where we can't build the Pyramids, the AI stilled haven't build this AA wonder.


450 AD
I drop the science rate by 10%. We have a ton of peasants to upgrade to laborer. We need to speed up worker tasks.
(IT) Babylon doesn't have much time to live. Persia and Mali ally against them.


460 AD
I ship wool to Persia for Leadership and $75. Babylon finished researching Leadership, so we can't get a 2 for 1 deal. :(
I start research on Cavalry Tactics due in 12 turns, as that is the ONLY tech I can find Babylon missing. 12-turn research at this point in the game is horrid. The Celts are also missing Cavalry Tactics.
(IT) The Aztecs complete Temple of Zeus that is already obsolete. :crazyeye:


490 AD
The Celts know Cavalry Tactics. There goes one potential trade.


510 AD
They haven't crossed our borders, but 2 Aztecs cavaliers next to our silver hill makes me nervous.


520 AD
Our economy is so screwed. Our research rate is downright horrid. I feel force to play depletion roulette and give camels to Persia for Cavalry Tactics, $38 and tm. You know how much I hate this of deal.

I ship Cavalry Tactics and $45 for Map Making and wm.

I start research on Mercantilism heading toward Smith's. If we even have an outside shot I have to try.

==========================

Summary:
We are in deep trouble with the economy. If we can pull of Smith's it would really help. Salamanca is working on the economy boasting Estates General. We want to be size 15 for the maximum effect. I started irrigating the flood plains to get growth.

I have been upgrading peasants to laborers as we get $60 to spare. That extra movement point makes then a lot more powerful.

Romeothemonk can have fun with England.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck?)
Status unknown - I can't tell if he still wants to play.

Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Woohoo. I love setups like this.
England shall feel my wrath.
This may be like LK88, where we have to wait until the late industrial to breakout. I will do my dangedest to get us some territory ASAP though.
Will try to play tomorrow.

IHT: Not much, declare war on England.
IBT: catarangus, market to library.
Turn 1: Advance on liverpool. Set military builds to pikes.
IBT: Lose a pike to an english cavalier. WE NEED ROUNDHEADS. Hehe. Mali build the encyclopedia.
Turn 2: Lose 1 templar and 2 elite braves, but raze Liverpool. (We killed 2 line infantry and a cavalier. The wounded cav killed both our elite braves.) IT gives us 2 walking culture bombs.
IBT: We lose a Mameluk to a dragoon.
Turn 3: Oka is founded. Templar kills musket, Knight kills dragoon. we have several retreats, but no losses as we kill 2 line infantry, a hussar, and a cannon and raze hastings. We get another 80 culture for doing so, and a great leader.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Lk94leader.jpg

The questions:
What do we want the leader to do? I am thinking rush the Military academy in Oka, as there is little cultural pressure there, and 1 expanion should eliminate all pressure.
How far into the English should I go? I think I can pretty dang near exterminate them in 10 turns.
Can I sign massive gpt deals linked with Alliances against Babylon or is this an exploit? I could get us either a buttload of gold, or a few techs, similar as Microbe pulled off in LK88.
Will resume playing this evening.

Pre-Got it. This time I'll give it time it deserves ..

Pre-Got it. This time I'll give it time it deserves.
Please include a zoom to city when selecting builds. I found this really helped me with to decide if a city needs a happy building next. The issue that stood out from last turn was lack of watching happy problems.


What do we want the leader to do? I am thinking rush the Military academy in Oka, as there is little cultural pressure there, and 1 expansion should eliminate all pressure. I love that fact that once again an out of to date unit generates the elite. ;)

It will be a long time before the Pentagon and 3 unit armies. The early 2 unit armies are weak and will be hit by the AI.

I would much rather see International Port in Caughnawaga. The reasons are:
1) Our economy still sucks. The IP gives extra commerce for all those water tiles. With a border expansion from the port that city gets *9* water tiles.
2) All the extra food from the IP will let us work 4 hills, and 2 mountains. When you combine that with the shield bonus from the water tiles the city will be a shield powerhouse.
3) With the high income we have another killer science city. This would be a great place for future income boasters along with the capitol.

I see NO logical city for the Summer Palace, so I am in no mood to rush that.


How far into the English should I go? I think I can pretty dang near exterminate them in 10 turns. It sounds like I didn't give you enough settlers. ;)
I definitely would raze and replace York. I would hold of the razing until we have another settler nearby. My goals were:
1) Saltpeter, and we have already secured that.
2) Sugar, and we are in a position to secure it.
3) Spice would be a nice bonus. Based on your comments we get the bonus.
4) Beat some techs out of them.

I don't think we want them dead yet, as I don't want the #1 threat of the Aztecs to get stronger. It is your call how much to destroy, but I want them alive enough to give us techs. Pointy stick will really help us out. To many of the killer wonders such as Supreme Court is coming up, and we need to catch up on tech to increase the odds of getting them.

Can I sign massive gpt deals linked with Alliances against Babylon or is this an exploit? At this time I have NOT ruled this an exploit. Our GPT payments to Babylon should be gone at this point. I would make Mercantilism the #1 goal, as Smith's is a killer economic wonder. That would save a lot of maintenance cost for us.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing, and finishing up)
Zavior (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Did we clear out the English city that was up near the Mali?

Did we clear out the English city that was up near the Mali?
The troop stack was all by the English core. I suspect that oddball city is still there.

Second the call for International Port with the MGL. 1000 shields worth, and more benefit than some great wonders. Should go in the city that works the most water, and if that city isn't very close to salamanca, it will be a good site for forbidden/summer palace.

Did we clear out the English city that was up near the Mali?
I like the confidence others have in my ability. I will probably leave that as the only English city, as the Mali are the cultural giants this game, and that city site would be a flip risk extroadinare.
Good thinking with the IP. I knew there was a reason I should ask.
I now have doubts about taking out all of England, but I think I will revise my goals a bit.
1) Take out the Spices as well.
2) Knock the English out of Federal Republic
3) Extort a few techs.
4) Get granaries in our core. Very important and not done yet.
5) Get Smiths started.
6) Leave a Decent Military in case someone wants a piece of us.
7) Use gold to get our peasants to laborers.
I forgot to note that the Persians built Sistene's and everyone swapped to Bach's and Clauswitz's.
Oka was built on Gold, so we have another native source, or a native source, I cannot remember. Anyway the English are down 1 gold source.
The good news compared to LK 88 is that our Tech Hole is less deep and we have about double the cities on a smaller map.
The Bad news is we have less than 1000 culture in our 25k city. We might actually hit 50k before we can hit 25k. We are neck and neck with the leading civs in culture.

Turn 3: NOt much just moving stuff around
Turn 4: We build the estates general. Salamaca to library.
Turn 5: Celts and Babs sign peace. Lots of builds to Academies and libraries. Make a deal with the Mali. We declare on Babylon, give 110 gpt and sugar, and get flintlock, juris prudence, and newtonian synthesis.
Turn 6: Get Mercantilism, set for economics. Celts get Bachs, Persians get Newtons. Salamanca starts a slave market. Kill an English Musket near 25k. Reset counter (1-0). Lose 1 cavalier, kill 3 line infantry and Raze York. (4-1) Get 6 Walking pieces of culture. They will look good in our mueseum in 25k, if we could build one. The English will not even cough up Econ for peace.
Turn 7: Caunewaga builds the IP. I set Salamanca on a court, so it can build a prison. Ditto with Catarangus. Cities will need extensive MM when their current builds finish next turn set. A English hussar dies to our templar in the IBT. (5-1). Set up for an assualt on the next English town, also with Saltpeter.
Turn 8: Our troops forget what retreat is and lose 3 cavaliers at Newcastle killing nothing. Get peace with the English getting 2 workers and perspective for 35 gold. I have all the captured workers on GoTo to 25k. (5-4). I am sorry about that snafu. I spread units all over the open area so we can settle it.
Turn 9: We are in a semisever techhole now as Aztecs start Taj Mahal. I am building mass infra.
Turn 10: Malinese finally whack the Babs. We can now do 3-4 turn research. We can sell SUGAR and Should do it.
The next war should start in 5-7 turns and should be on the Celts. we have 2 city spots availible. We can build on the rubble over the spices next turn and have another settler on the way. I think he should settle under our Dragoon on the flood plains.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94_New_lands.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-650AD.SAV

Get peace with the English getting 2 workers and perspective for 35 gold.
IIRC Perspective is an optional tech. I am curious why that tech?

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Because I wanted to take full advantage of the Credit I had built up by slaughtering their people. I realize it was optional, but anytime I can get a Tech for 35 gold on Diety, I usually take it.
Notes for Zavior.
1) I MM'ed all the cities on my last turn, but you will need to remicro Caunauwagua every time it builds something.
2) Sell the courthouse in Salamanca as soon as the prison finishes but not before.
3) Get some workers down to improve cattarangus. Our second best city is still working unimproved tiles. I was working caunewauga, and some of the other northern cities that had minimal to no improvements, but that time is over for now.
4) We can trade like crazy. England lacks gold, and we should be the only sugar and spice dealers in the world now. (Does that mean we traffic in little girls?? Sorry couldn't resist) I would trade all of our spare everything that we can.
5) If we have some money, upgrade the last of our peasants to laborers.
6) Good luck, and I probably wouldn't start any wars on your turn, but I still wouldn't trade with the Celts.

I'll get to this in 5 hours.

I got a chance to look at the game.
1) Zavior will get the honor of sacrificing the worker that will break the one thousand barrier. :D

2) We only have one bank built so far. I want to get 4 more built for the central bank.

3) We still have six peasants and we want them upgraded to laborer. That extra movement point means a laborer can move to a grassland AND start a road the same turn. This really speeds up the land improvement. I would still like a few more worker types built.

4) 25K sacrifice has enough spare happiness that it can now afford a slave market. I would slot that after the tollhouse. It can then build a bank. While we can't build culture, some of the science improvements such as school of scribes have NO culture.

5) Salamanca is by far our best shield city. It will get better with the prison. Smith's *MUST* be next if we want to get it. We only need 14 turns before the boast from the prison. Our economy is improving as we can support 50% science. I want to further improve it.

6) Should be build the summer palace in Caughnawaga? This is the international port city. This is so far the best option I see. I hate to leave an OCN improvement not built.

7) I see two options for the spice city.
The first is purple dot that becomes flip proof after border expansion.
The second is yellow dot. However, that city is a flip risk to the Aztecs. I would not feel comfortable trading spices until Tzintzuntzen is gone.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-649.jpg

6) Should be build the summer palace in Caughnawaga? This is the international port city. This is so far the best option I see. I hate to leave an OCN improvement not built.

7) I see two options for the spice city.
The first is purple dot that becomes flip proof after border expansion.
The second is yellow dot. However, that city is a flip risk to the Aztecs. I would not feel comfortable trading spices until Tzintzuntzen is gone.


Question 6: Yes, definitely. IP and a palace is a very good combo.

7: Have only looked at your picture, so I'm not sure what is to the west. I'd prefer to settle on the river instead of 1 tile away. Depends what else is there whether that's feasible or not.

Lurker (cowering at the possibility of being wrong yet again) comment: As I recall, cities cannot be built on desert in RandR.

Lurker (cowering at the possibility of being wrong yet again) comment: As I recall, cities cannot be built on desert in RandR.
I this case you are dead on. We are forced to build at the flip risk yellow dot.

Bez is correct on this one. You cannot build cities on Desert tiles.
A few things about building the Summer Palace:
1) First build at least a forge and or a mill or two
2) Our IP city will be one of our most productive, so production bonuses are huge.
A few more random notes:
Our Military cannot be overrun by the AI at this point imho. I would tell everyone but the Aztecs where to stick their demands at this point. To be on the safe side, I would also give in to the Mali, at least for now.
I would build on the ruins of the old spice city. That way we immeadiatly get all the spice in the world, and totally ruin Englands rep. It will only take 3 defenders to prevent a flip to the Aztecs. This is based on it's similarity and overlap to Oka which only needs 3. The amount of units we need to prevent flips will also go down when the 8 sacrafices manage to mount the Altar.
I would start Smith's as soon as the Prison finishes in our capitol.

2) Our IP city will be one of our most productive, so production bonuses are huge.
That is why I was debated SP there. It sounds like it is NOT a debate, and we should work that city toward the SP. The city already has 19 raw shields were no production boasters. It still has 2 hills and a mountain to claim. Thanks to IP the sea tiles add 2 shields each.

It will need some production boasters before we start to build it.

Sorry, I need skip. It took 5mins to load up the save, and the game is like dia-show. It might be my cp fan, which I cant help now.
I dont have time to solve this problem as we leave for a week tomorrow.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I would build on the ruins of the old spice city. That way we immeadiatly get all the spice in the world, and totally ruin Englands rep.
This site is far worse then yellow dot for flips. This adds a second tiles of conflict with the Aztecs and a tile of conflict with England. IMO the extra spices aren't worth the higher flip risk.

Yes it has a higher flip risk, but there is not much we can do about that other than build culture there. I do not think we can settle on either of your dots, as I think both are desert. Even if we have to station 10 units there initially, (Which we still have), I think the monopoly ownership of a luxury is too important to pass up. Even if this means we delay a war by some turns.

I do not think we can settle on either of your dots, as I think both are desert.
Yellow dot is a flood plains tile IIRC. We can settle there.

Yes it has a higher flip risk, but there is not much we can do about that other than build culture there.

I think the monopoly ownership of a luxury is too important to pass up.

We will have to agree to disagree. I have been screwed to badly with flips. LK88 with the 8 army disaster in the latest one in a SG. I am playing the COTM and lost several elites to flips.

If this city flips we destroy our trading rep. This is a hypercritical city in that a flip destroyers our rep if we trade spices. IMO the extra spices aren't worth risking a destroyed rep.

Got it.

Hard to see where the river goes on the pic, but if the yellow dot is a floodplain the river must be there. Again, I haven't looked at the game yet, I will when I log off. But the tile on the river 1 S of the pink dot will give us a spice monopoly, and looks like it will have no flip risk with Aztecs, and 1 of the 21 tiles controlled by the English? city to the SW, who should be a low flip risk as romeo has just been crippling them. I'll look at the save, but that seems like the best city location to me. The yellow dot has 1 of 21 tiles providing flip risk, but it is with the much stronger aztecs. 1 SW of the yellow dot provides us with more spices and less flip risk, am I missing something that means we shouldn't settle there?

OK, just looked. My preference is still 1 tile SW of the yellow dot. It shares 2 tiles with London, but gives us a spice monopoly. If we think 2 tiles is too high a risk, my second preference is 1 tile W of the yellow dot, which gives us 2 spices and shares 1 tile with london. I'd rather share with England than with the Aztecs, we're behind the Aztecs on culture, we have a large culture lead over England. It also doesn't have to last as long without flipping, the risk of flipping to England should disappear well before the risk of flipping to the Aztecs.

Unless there's a major objection, I also plan to not complete the Prison in Salamanca yet. Completing it and then starting Smith's will see us complete Smith's 15 turns from now (3 for prison pushing us to 93 or 94spt, then 12 for smith's). Immediately switching to Smiths when it's available will see us complete Smith's 11 turns from now. Smith's is extremely important to us, I don't want to spend the extra 4 turns to complete it and risk missing out.

OK, just looked. My preference is still 1 tile SW of the yellow dot. It shares 2 tiles with London, but gives us a spice monopoly.
I am simply going to repeat my preference for yellow dot. A trade good city that flips would destroy our rep and would kill us this game. We very much need to take advantage of everything we can trade.
What good is a monopoly if we lose the city to a flip?



Unless there's a major objection, I also plan to not complete the Prison in Salamanca yet.
If we can keep accumulate enough shields before we get Economics I agree 100%. Several turns of built up shields is just as good as the prison.

I am simply going to repeat my preference for yellow dot. A trade good city that flips would destroy our rep and would kill us this game. We very much need to take advantage of everything we can trade.
What good is a monopoly if we lose the city to a flip?

Yep, agree the monopoly's no good if it flips. We can go to war and remove London in 18 turns if we want to, we are a lot further off removing Tzintzuntzen. That's why I'd prefer to share with England instead of the Aztecs. Sounds like minimising flip risk is the main preference, and 1 tile W of the yellow dot gives us 2 spices with less flip risk than the yellow dot, and as soon as I dig out the Clash and play 'London's Burning' there is zero flip risk and we can claim the other 3 spices at no risk either. Any sharing with the Aztecs will last much longer and make trading a higher risk.


If we can keep accumulate enough shields before we get Economics I agree 100%. Several turns of built up shields is just as good as the prison.

We can. My turnset will end with Smith's due in 1 turn, unless the AI builds it sooner.

OK, got the calculator out, and it told me taking a spice monopoly, sharing 2 tiles with england was a smaller initial flip risk & required a smaller garrison than the yellow dot, and they're close enough to even after the first cultural expansion. So monopoly it is.

650: All looks good. Economy is still weak, we still need more labourers.

660: Flipfree founded.
Wool to Aztecs for Economics & 32 gold, enter IA and start Nationalism
Sugar to Mali for 200 gold
Celts sell us another 40 culture points for 120 gold, it starts marching

670: 25K reaches 1K, 4 peasants upgraded

680: Aztecs can afford Sugar now, they pay 11gpt, 2 more peasants upgraded

690: Aztecs extort 19 gold & map

700: Sugar to Persia for 180 gold

710: zzz

720: Mali builds Clausewitz's

730: Research Nationalism ---> Theory of Evolution
England builds Shakespeare's Theater

740: Mali & England sign MPP :eek: That makes the Celts the next target, not England, so I start moving most of our horses from flipfree to the celtic border.

750: zzz

Salamanca will complete Smith's next turn, mostly I built a lot of marketplaces, a few labourers, a few military. Economy is looking better, it will look a lot better next turn. Caughnawaga built Slave Market and Forge, that got summer palace down to 8 turns, it's about halfway through.

Salamanca will complete Smith's next turn :dance:
This is more good news for the economy.


Caughnawaga built Slave Market and Forge, that got summer palace down to 8 turns, it's about halfway through. I am continuing to feel good about the economy. We are close to another powerhouse city.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I see it and it is on the list.

750 AD (0)
Not much to change, we need to get on the stick for razing cities and collecting slaves if we plan on winning this thing.
(I) Salamanca Smith's->National Monument (as a pre-build). 25K Hussie->Hussie, Oka Monument->Forge. The English swap to Taj Mahal.

760 AD (1)
I build an embassy with Persia and check its ToE build in Antioch. It is due in 24 turns. Sell the just hooked up spices to the Aztecs for 227g. I use this to finance taking a turn off ToE research.
(I)Not much

770 AD (2)
I think the next target is the Celts. Their military is average to us and we can get another incense and tea.
(I) We finish ToE and start STeam. We finish the Summer Palace.

780 AD (3)
I ask the Celts to leave and they declare war. We kill off a pioneer escort and have three slaves. The start the long walk. We assualt the city of Armagh but the Celts have a ton of defenders there. Swap Salamanca to a Uni so we can build ToE.
(I) No counters from the Celts. The fols want to build the Summer Gardens. The Celts finish the Taj Mahal.

790 AD (4)
It looks like there was only one pike left in the city and we raze it. We get 6 more slaves to walk to the altar. We sang another slave near Budapest.
(I)Celts counter, we lose 1 they lose 2. Salamanca Uni->ToE

800 AD (5)
Form the city of Ganogeh. It has some overlap with standing cities but it fills the gap and isn't a flip risk.
(I) Only one Celtic counter.

810 AD (6)
We begin the march on Budapest.
(I) One more Celt counter. Steam->Industrialization

820 AD (7)
Kill three Celt units and begin the seige of Budapest.
(I) The Mali declare on Persia. Looks like the Aztecs may sneak attack us. I would liek to see the Mali and Aztecs go at it though.

830 AD (8)
The city of Budapest is razed and we get 5 more for the altar. Pick up Medicine for 48gpt from the Aztecs. I then sell them Tropical Fruit. I am really nervous as the Aztecs could take the spices town on turn one. I sign them to an alliance against the Celts fro cash and 8gpt.
(I) The Aztecs pay for Mali to join the cause. We lose a couple of units to counters. The Celts but the Persians in against the Aztecs. England is brought in against the Celts.

840 AD (9)
We sell the Aztecs coal for Humanism, Dyes, Tobacco, 342g and WM. This will allow us to drop lux to 0 as soon as ToE builds.
(I) The Aztecs pull their units to go after Persia. The English try to retake Endinbourgh

850 AD (10)
We move up to take Edinburough if the English don't. I would then settle to get the tea before razing Angora.

Well, for one turn I had 25K as the city of ours with the most culture. When the current 5 slaves )on goto) get there, it should be there again, if only briefly.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I am really nervous as the Aztecs could take the spices town on turn one. I sign them to an alliance against the Celts fro cash and 8gpt.

If the Aztecs had already decide to attack us, the alliance wouldn't have mattered. I have been attacked more then once by a civ I just signed an alliance with. All this did is trap is into a full 20 turns of war with the Celts.

If the Aztecs had already decide to attack us, the alliance wouldn't have mattered. I have been attacked more then once by a civ I just signed an alliance with. All this did is trap is into a full 20 turns of war with the Celts.
My experience differs. Just to see what would happen, I went back and did everything the same except for the alliance. The Aztecs moved in and declared war taking the spice city and nearly taking 25K.

I wasn't the Celts that bought them into the war either as they moved a unit next to the city prior to declaring war and hitting the city. If it had been an alliance, they would have declared on the Celts turn and then attacked.

I tried other combinations, but the alliance seems to have put it over the top for them not to attack. Maybe because it gave them someone just as weak to attack. They were going after the Celts until the Celts brought Persia into it. After that, they turned the units around and went the other way.

If the Persians prove to be a lot to handle, they will most likely not go the full twenty with the Celts. On the other hand, with Mali, England and us hitting them, I doubt the Celts will last 20 turns anyway. On top of the incense and tea, there are also gems that could be had as well.

Believe it or not, I spent most of the time on infrastructure and hardly any on military. We should be able to get ToE and 2 extra tech, which should get us to rail or close enough.

I think the next step is to get our defenses up (at least 3 defenders in all borders, maybe as many as 5) and then go after Mali. Once we take a slice of them, we should be in position to hurt the Aztecs.

BTW, if you want to play with the turn yourself, I can post the turn before the Aztecs attack and you can play it out for yourself. I have always found that an alliance at the right time can stop agression against you and turn the sword in another direction. It is something that you will see me do if threatened and our Civ isn't ready to handle the attack.

My experience differs. Just to see what would happen, I went back and did everything the same except for the alliance.

I tried other combinations, but the alliance seems to have put it over the top for them not to attack.
:confused: This is really weird. My experience as been more the LK87 experience. We ally with China against Germany, but the STILL attack us. I am not sure what makes the difference sometimes.

=========================


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-950AD.zip

850 AD
Flipfree really has me baffled. MapStat shows it at 0% flip risk. It is at point-blank range of London. I don't understand how this can have no flip risk.

I count 2 banks built, and 2 in progress. I swap 25K sacrifice to a bank for the 5th bank.

I swap our military builds to defenders. We still have to many cities with 1 defender and have to 2 more colonists on the way without escort.

I sell Persia gold for wm and $360.
(IT) The English beat us to Edinburgh.


860 AD
I give wool and $40 to Persia for Industry.

I really hate signing a RoP with an AI civ when our city defense is weak. However, it this case I am caught between a rock and a hard place. Without the RoP I can't continue the Celtic war. My gut feels says the Celts will die, and we need to grab a piece.

However, at this point I am not building any more cities. I don't want cities trapped behind the English lines when I have a shortage of defensive units. England is the next target when the Mali MPP is gone.
(IT) I must have missed a bank somewhere, as our people already want to build the Central Bank.


880 AD
I sell sugar to the Mali for $225.

Angora is razed to the ground for $0 and one lousy sacrifice.
The gods enjoy another 5 workers at 25K sacrifice.


900 AD
(IT) The Mali completed Edison's Workshop.


910 AD
Geneva is toasted for $0 and 4 sacrifices. However, between the dead and badly injured units the offensive is stalled for now.


920 AD
(IT) ToE completes and we get Sanitation and Espionage as our free techs.


930 AD
Having techs to sell is a nice feeling. A massive and time consuming trading session occurs with us having 2 monopoly techs. As I was trading techs I kept finding techs only owned by 2 or 3 of the 4 trading partners.
I also give up Sugar and spent $76.
I get the needed techs to build the corruption reducing Supreme Court: Federalism, Constitutionalism, and Modern Legal System.
I got the following mandatory techs: Steel, Social Darwinism, Grand Strategy, Electricity, High Explosives, Replaceable Parts, The Corporation, and Repeating Rifle.
I got the following throw in techs with left over credit rather then waste it: Music Theory, Social Contract, Naval Cannon, Naval Tactics and Ship Building.

I am happy to report we have unconnected rubber by Oil Springs.

While we still have gaps, the AIs are no longer way ahead. England is only ahead of us by Free Artistry and the evil Monasticism. None of the AIs have Thermodynamics yet, so I set our research to that due in 10 turns. IMO this is our best chance for another monopoly tech. We can now build rifleman with a defense factor of 5.

I've been working on the railroad...
(IT) The Aztecs and Persia sign a peace treaty. :(

==========================

Summary:
We are painfully short of labor with rails available. Please keep St. Regis on every 3 turns laborer, and peel them from other towns when possible. A military rail-net will go a long way toward improving out military situation. I would also let food-heavy Tyendenaga keep building them. We can now clear jungle and swamps for even more worker tasks. This would let us do thinks like getting Akwesasne up to size.

Please build 3 district courthouses for to allow for the building of the Supreme Court. We also want 3 factories for the awesome production boasting Crystal Palace. If we pull these 2 wonders of our productivity will soar.
We also have East India Company to build in Caughnawaga after we complete the production boasters. This is good for free 50% boast in entertainment funding in all cities.

Central Bank is due in 4 for another economic boast.

We will cross the 2K mark when the new Celtic sacrifices reach 25K.

=================

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

"I must have missed a bank somewhere, as our people already want to build the Central Bank.:

Despite what is listed in the pedia, I have yet to encounter a wonder that needed more than 3 of the prereq (with the possible exception of the second wonder allowed by research labs (cure for cancer?).

"I must have missed a bank somewhere, as our people already want to build the Central Bank.:

Despite what is listed in the pedia, I have yet to encounter a wonder that needed more than 3 of the prereq (with the possible exception of the second wonder allowed by research labs (cure for cancer?).
I just checked the .biq and it is only 3 banks. That explains the confusion.

Woohoo I get a war to pursue.
Got it.

IHT: Swap Caunwekae to court. With the court, we should go down to no corruption in Caunewake.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 1: Road some more. Sqeeze an extra 10 gold and 1 gpt out of the Aztecs for our sugar.
Turn 2: Start 2 District courts, one in pig town, one in 25k. The Aztecs have a lot of cavs and such.
Turn 3: Minor building projects.
IBT: Some crappy news and stuff. England and Persia sign an MPP. England and Celts sign peace. An idea here though. All of the Aztec Heavy hitters are in Celtic territory. We could do a world Dogpile quite nicely to trim them.
Turn 4: Build the Central bank, start a factory. I guess I am going to try and get as much infra up as possible. The Celts are an OCC, time for the MA trick. I dial up the Mali, get refining and realpolotik for 515 gpt and an alliance. In a completely expected turn of events, we have no oil, but the English have 2 sources.
IBT: Something went wrong, the Celts must have a settler on a boat. all their cities are gone, but not them. NUTS!!
Turn 5: Actually Celts are a 1 tile Island off of England. Time to make the best out of a really crappy situation. Refining and Realpolotik get us 76 gold, WM, free artisitry, and Advanced metallurgy from England. Refining gets us 466 gold from Xerxes.
Turn 6: Just to make Lee feel better, Thermo pops 2 turns before we could have gotten it. Swap to grand war.
Turn 7: Still trying to make a railnet go, and kicking myself for a really dumb mistake.
Turn 8: Some of our payments went away, so we can continue to research. I have a semi-railnet going now.
IBT: The English sneak attack us. I will see what I can do now. Kill a hussar and lose a line infantry (1-1).
Turn 9: Salamanca has built factory, coal plant and prison on my watch now. And to add insult to injury, Grand war is now availible. Kill a hussar. (2-1). in the good news catergory, the Celtic city is losing population and the Aztecs do have leathernecks, but they semm intent on marching through our territory. Spend down to a thousand gold on upgrades. Since England and Persia have an MPP that hasn't triggered yet, I sell fruit, spices, and 65 gpt for screw propellor, so we can at least see mass producion. It is too bad that internal combustion is in the way.
Turn 10: In a bid to make the world a better place for us, I attack and kill a cavalier in British territory, this triggers the Persian MPP. Kill a cavalier (3-1).
Now we are in an odd situation. We can get the Aztecs after the Persians, and most of the Aztec heavy hitters are still over in the former celtic mainland. This could be really good. I am beginning to think that if in ~6 turns the Celts aren't destroyed we will have to give the Mali the move it or lose it choice.
I really pooched up that deal. On the good side, Salamanca can build 1 turn cavs, and cattarangus will be able to soon. Now I know why the MA trick is not considered an exploit.
Both the Mali and the Aztecs have 26 cities, and the Aztecs have a bigger military.
Some good news however.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94b.jpg
And who says the AI uses armies well?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94_britarmy.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-1150AD.SAV

This is a general SG issue I am getting tired of. What do people have against building workers? I notice one of our two sources of new labor is stopped. We can now make Akwesasne a viable town by clear jungle. That requires a lot of labor. Railing the mountains requires a lot of labor. This whole game is suffering IMO due to the constant worker shortage. I know I will never play another worker sacrifice game. It seems like most games where you can't get free labor no one will build enough labor.

@ALL - for the players confused by the 1150 AD date. The save is labeled wrong. The save is really 1050 AD and that is the date I expected to see.

Just a guess on why the MA with the Aztecs vs. the Celts worked: Do the Celts move before the Aztecs? If so, what might have happened is that since the Aztecs declared war on your turn, the Celts moved units into the Aztec territory. The Aztecs felt threatened, and turned around. After that the Celts might have always had soft targets available in the field so the Aztecs forgot all about attacking you.

Sorry for a mislabel on the save.
On the worker issue, I built ~8 more workers during my turnset. I noticed something at the beginning of my turnset I forgot to mention. Our Hardy Colonists were fortified, but they can rail. I started them railing the mountain that they were on.
My thoughts on RR'ing mountains differ from LK's, but for every mountain RR'ed we add 1 more base shield, but it becomes 4 shields in Salamanca's box. I kept the 2 1-turn worker gangs working on building a railnet, but whenever I would skim a worker, I would start it on a longer term project, since we really lacked the labor force to make more 1 turn stacks. We can probably make at least 1 more 1 turn flat stack, but personally, I would combine with a current stack to make a 1-turn hill stack, and RR some hills by Salamanca, Catarangus, and Caunewanke.
I agree that the lack of slave labor hurts, but this game is teaching me some very valuable lessons.
1) We don't need TGL, or the Encyclopedia on Diety.
2) Judicious, almost oscillating warfare means that you can accumulate a nice land empire before tanks
3) LK really like's Smith's and it is starting to rub off on me
4) Never underestimate early science buildings, as our research really hurts, and most of our towns lack libraries and academies
5) Worker shortage should be defined at the beginning of the game and goals set (my personal goal is to get 3 stacks that can RR anything already Roaded in 1 turn)
6) Worker actions need to be more coordinated between players, as our true advantage as humans is planning ahead. ( I am beginning to think that worker action planning is more important than military planning)
With saying that I will say that I have misc stacks RR mountains and hills by Salamanca and Catarangus. Cat can currently do 1 turn rifles, and Salamanca will be able to do 1 turn cavs. Salamanca can swap to stock exchange instead of the hospital, as in hindsight we need more gpt than spt at the moment.
I have the workers working to extend the railnet down to London, and I took some time to make a nice RR Net around Sal and Cat, also increasing their base spt.

I have the workers working to extend the railnet down to London, and I took some time to make a nice RR Net around Sal and Cat, also increasing their base spt.
I think this is a preference issue. I put priority on military rail-net ABOVE optimizing shields. Rails IMO are one of the huge human player advantages. The faster you can connect your cities, the stronger your mobility is.


I have a lot more comments coming, but I need time to write them up.

One other thing is artillery is available. The artillery in RaR is stronger then in base C3C. We really should start building some artillery now that rail-net can move it quicker. Remember artillery is move *2* with a better bombard rate.

Thermo pops 2 turns before we could have gotten it. Swap to grand war.
WTH? By swapping techs you WASTED all the research into Thermodynamic. 8 turns of researched were thrown down the toilet for nothing. In a game that we are struggling to keep up in tech this is terrible. Did you change research just hoping for a monopoly tech?
I confirmed the wastage as you were down to just 2 turns to go. I tested 1050 AD Thermodynamics requires way more then 2 turns.


I dial up the Mali, get refining and Realpolitik for 515 gpt and an alliance.
...
Now I know why the MA trick is not considered an exploit.
This isn't a question of exploit. This is POOR play. I always check for a 1-tile island before trying the alliance trick. That is exactly why I couldn't pull it off in LK92 recently.


I am beginning to think that if in ~6 turns the Celts aren't destroyed we will have to give the Mali the move it or lose it choice. You answer to a mistake is to start a war with a monster civ? I 100% disagree with you on this one. We have to accept our mistake and deal with the penalty and eat the GPT loss.

Romeothemonk I am very disappointed with this turn. I know you are capable of better play.

I would prefer a SKIP before you rush a turn with sloppy play.

Yes it is kind of a preference thing, but whenever I get the game, I always find 3-6 units standing on our road/railnet between Cat and Sal.
I am untrained in civil engineering, but it appeared to me that it was the largest roadblock, as it is the shortest route between the Mali and everyone else. By widening the railnet there, it achieved a double purpose. It gave our most productive cities a spt boost, and it kept the railnet open in the last 4 turns of my set.
Some notes that might not be clear enough from my turn log
1) We have built 2 district courthouses, 1 in pig town, 1 in 25 k
2) We have more than 3 factories completed
3) We can build stock exchanges and should build them. With 3 we can build Wall Street and the brokerage firm
4) Most of our agile military can hit London in the next 2-3 turns,
5) The next MGL should rush the CIA as we could then steal our way into parity, plus know where and how hard to hit the Opponents.
6) One of the goals of the English war should be to secure oil. We need oil for tanks soon
7) We can sign the Aztecs vs the Persians, or the Mali versus the Persians. Since the Persians are broke, they should not be able to sign in someone else against us. Most of the Aztec military is out of position (read in our lands), but they could also really hurt the Mali, which could help us out as well. By having the Mali fight Persia, they will likely lose a portion of their empire, as well as allow the Aztecs to concentrate on the Celts. (That MA move I made is really stupid if the Celts don't die in the next 10 turns, it might even be stupider than losing 8 armies in 1 flip)

On the good side, Salamanca can build 1 turn cavs...
Salamanca is our science super city and by far the strongest shield city. It has the Estates General for a big income boast. We have several killer wonders to build. IMO cavalry would be a major waste of time from Salamanca.

This repeats some of what Romeothemonk says, but this is a critical direction for us. It adds some things he did not talk about.

We should be working toward Supreme Court for corruption reduction in all cities. We should be working toward Wall Street for 50% boast to taxes, science and entertainment. It then opens up the brokerage firm for another 50% tax boast. We should be working toward Crystal Palace for 125% production boast in Salamanca and a 25% production boast in all other cities. We have the National Gallery for a 100% science gain. We have National Monument for 50% tax gain. If we can get this all built our production and science will be able to crush the AI civs.

Our goals are:
1) Three factories have been built, and we are simply waiting for Mass Production.
2) Three stock exchanges - I can't find any built.
3) Three district courthouses - 25K sacrifice and Pig Town have built them. We need to build 1 more. I would build that ASAP so that Salamanca can complete Supreme Court before and maybe some of those nice small wonders before starting on Crystal Palace.


This below comment from Romeothemonk this CRITICAL:
One of the goals of the English war should be to secure oil. We need oil for tanks soon
Tanks in human hands along with Pentagon and 3 unit armies are brutal in human hands. They took LK88 from a joke to utterly destroyed AI civs.
No matter how bad the English war gets London must be razed and replaced.


Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Romeothemonk I am very disappointed with this turn. I know you are capable of better play.

You aren't the only one LK. :(
I didn't rush these turns, but they felt a little odd. I just played the hand dealt to me and put too many chips in on a 4-9 offsuit. The flop really didn't help me either. I think this is the first time I inherited a war I couldn't do anything with.
I admit the 1-tile Island was a huge booboo, but I am prone to mistakes like this every once in a while. This every once in a while pulling a really dumb move prevents me from being a Sid level player.
On the Technology front I will attempt to explain myself. I lowered the Tech rate to zero to gather the gpt we needed. The fastest we could research was at 10%. Continuing to Thermo at 10% took 30 some odd turns. I did this until the Mali and Aztecs both got thermo on the same turn. I then swapped to Grand War, as it took the same number of turns but had the potential to be a monopoly tech. As soon as Grand War popped (2-turns) I snagged screw propellor to try and get us closer to Mass Production.
I think that everything that I did that you didn't agree with stems from the whole pooched MA deal. I was really happy when I made the deal and then some trades and got us a total of 5 techs in my ten turns, and then the Celt Capitol fell.
Something I should do to help my game is to get a border graphics mod or something. Other than us and England, everyone looks pretty much the same color to me, especially Aztecs and Celts. Not an excuse, as my mistake was pretty inexcusable, but at least I found something that can help in the future.
@LK, on the Mali, I haven't seen huge stacks of Cavalry, the closest I have seen is huge stacks of elephants. The Aztec cavs scare me a ton more than the Mali elephants.
@all, you can call me Jake, as it is much shorter the Romeothemonk

It feels like $50 in interest became too big of a concern. Our cities make $991 a turn right now. $50 doesn't gain that much, and I would much rather have continued to heavily push tech with small GPT gains to slowly push to $1000.

Part of the problem is play style. However, it feels like you stuck in war mode. The cavalry comment from the capitol with the key production boosting wonders being ignored is an example. History is chock full of examples of a foe that is superior on a one-to-one basis losing a war as the other side out produced them.


We can beat this subject to death. I am not sure what more can be accomplished outside of me saying the wastage on Thermo annoyed be more that the Mali alliance against the Celts.

Noticed that I said that Salamanca can build 1-turn cavs. Neither Salamanca nor Cat built any war units.
Technically, I agree with you, LK, on the building better units and economy. One thing I noticed was that we built the central bank in Cat, not in Sal. We should build Wall Street in Sal, and we should hold off on the Mt.Rushmore thing. It is more economical to build superhighways and Skyscrapers than Mt. Rushmore. Since we do not have WW, I would rather build a skyscraper so we can get to the empire state than the National Monument as it is cheaper. However, if the turn #'s to build are the same, then I would build the monument, as it gives us some culture.
I would use our small remaining income to upgrade some of the troops that we have, most importantly mounted stuff to cavs. I upgraded the elite * heavy horse that was left over from my last turnset. We do not need to build as much military if we just keep some of what we have current.
Hopefully Sanabas can sort out the mess I made.

One thing I noticed was that we built the central bank in Cat, not in Sal.

:blush::blush:
I couldn't figure out this comment until I realized I forget about the 50% revnue boast.

Got it, sounds like a complicated situation I'll get to look at. Probably won't get to it until tomorrow, uni is in the way.

@Lee's comment a couple of pages back about Flipfree & mapstat showing 0% flip risk, if you move the garrison out of flipfree it will show about 0.2%, and a required garrison of 1..2. Put the garrison there, the risk is 0. Biggest reason is that overall culture culture difference can easily overcome local culture. I've learnt this the hard way by having border cities with big local culture leads flipping to an overall culture monster. Nice to have it working in our direction in a deity game for a change.

OK, had a quick look, I can see 3 options.

1: Keep at war with England, hold off persia, try and get some research done.

2: Ask Mali to leave, which presumably will start a war, and save us approx 7000 gold

3: Sign peace with Celts, also saving us 7000 gold, but trashing our rep.

Option 2 I don't like, as we're not in position to fight Mali, and I think they'll do us serious damage.

Option 3 I can live with, but prefer not to. When we do go to war with either the Aztecs or Mali it will be a lot easier if we can get the rest of the world in on our side, I'd rather not make it us against the world just yet.

So it looks like option 1, it means we're looking at probably at least 20 turns to get mass production and the ability to build crystal palace, hopefully all the AIs being at war will prevent them building it. I'll try and get Salamanca on a decently timed prebuild, and I'll trade as much as possible to both the Aztecs & Mali so we can afford research.

lurker comment: poor Romeo, you picked the most expensive tech in all of RandR to buy (Realpolitik - I always end up researching that one myself). :sad:

WTH? By swapping techs you WASTED all the research into Thermodynamic. 8 turns of researched were thrown down the toilet for nothing. In a game that we are struggling to keep up in tech this is terrible.
IIRC one of the Civ mods allows you to switch away from a tech and the switch back later without wasting the beakers. Was that RaR or something else?

OK, had a quick look, I can see 3 options.

1: Keep at war with England, hold off persia, try and get some research done.

So it looks like option 1, it means we're looking at probably at least 20 turns to get mass production and the ability to build crystal palace, hopefully all the AIs being at war will prevent them building it.

Option 1 IMO is the only viable option. We do have the option of allying with the Aztecs vs. Persia and pretty much ignoring Persia for 20 turns. Having 2 of the big boys beat each other up sounds good to me.

A note. I would not build the Supreme court in Sal. I would build it elsewhere, probably in Cat. It only costs 540 shields and gives no direct benefit to the city that builds it.
@Bez, it's great expense was why I bought it, so we wouldn't have to research it.
@Timko, I do not think RaR 1.03b lets you save beakers. I also thought it did, but when I swapped away, the research time went up. When we swapped in Bed03 I think we did retain the beakers. But that was RaR 1.02

You can never retain any beakers in Civ3. If we could change the code that way, we'd be the Kings of Modding ;) .


Realpolitik enables drafting; that's why it's more expensive to buy than even a Gov tech.

A note. I would not build the Supreme court in Sal. I would build it elsewhere, probably in Cat. It only costs 540 shields and gives no direct benefit to the city that builds it.

This sounds like a good game plan. We can let Salamanca sneak in some of those nice small wonders while we wait for Crystal Palace to be possible.

It seems like convention is to keep a running tally of units killed - units lost, yeah? If that's not the case, just yell and I'll report it differently.

1050AD - Wake up the workers on the mountain, connecting every city to the railnet is a higher priority
Sell spices & fruit to Mali for 540 gold
Sell spices & wool to aztecs for 26gpt
Switch 2 builds to stock exchanges, cattaraugus to labourer then stock exchange
Pay the Aztecs 600 gold to get them to ally with us against Persia
Push SCI to 20%
My plan for Salamanca is hospital-labourer-wall st-brokerage firm-crystal palace prebuild

IBT England declare war on Aztecs, England & Persia must have a MPP still
England kill a cavalier and a templar (0-2)

1060 - Aztecs must have been getting their coal from England, I sell them coal for Thermodynamics & 100 gold
Kill English army (1-2)

1666 aka 1070 - Great Fire of London. Kill 4 riflemen in London, lose 1 cavalry, get 7 sacrifices (5-3)
Kill Line infantry & tribal guard(7-3)

1080 - Sugar to Mali for 260 gold
Caughnawaga starts East India Company

1090 - Aztecs are drawing most of the english attacks, Aztecs take Dover

1100 - Gewauga founded on the ruins of London

1110 - 3rd stock exchange built, Wall St due next turn
Raze Coventry. Kill 3 riflemen in city, lose 5 cavalry, get 6 sacrifices (10-8)
Kill 1 leatherneck, 1 cavalry, 1 line infantry (13-8)

1120 - Aztecs take Edinburgh
Mali build Universal Sufferage
Salamanca builds Wall Street
Cattaraugus builds District courthouse, starts Supreme Court
Goigouen founded on Coventry's ruins
Kill 1 cavalry, 1 rifleman, capture a settler for 3 sacrifices, lose 1 Hussar (13-9)

1130 - Aztecs take Norwich, england attacks and kills a pikeman (15-10)
Salamanca build Brokerage firm, there's no decent prebuilds, stock exchange & custom house are the best 2 things we can build, both give +50% tax
Kill 2 cavalry (17-10)

1140 - England attack & kill 1 Halberdier, 1 cavalry (17-12)
Raze Newcastle, kill 4 riflemen in city, lose 1 cavalry, 1 hussar, 1 cavalier, get 5 sacrifices (21-15)
Kill 1 cavalry, 1 leatherneck (23-15)
Make 7 sacrifices

1150AD - Salamanca builds stock echange, starts Custom house
I must have moved units out of flipfree and not noticed they were required MPs, because Flipfree riots. Sorry.


England is down to 4 cities, we should be able to take Nottingham and the one just south of Nottingham (Oxford?). Aztecs will probably get the other 2, if we can make peace with england the turn before they go we may get refrigeration or grand war out of them. Persia were unsighted until the very last turn, they were concentrating on the Aztecs.

There are 14 sacrifices due in the next couple of turns, they will put 25k into the culture lead.

I kept the 3 turn labourer factory running all set, any city that is size 15 with a full food box should build a labourer as well, as it will grow to 15 again the next turn.

East India, Supreme court & salamanca's custom house will all complete in 2 turns, they will all give the economy a boost, we can make peace with the celts in 4 turns, that will be an even bigger economy boost, we should get Mass Production 4 or 5 turns after that when we turn up research. That means Salamanca should be able to finish the custom house, build 1 labourer, and then a 6 turn small wonder prebuild will be perfectly timed for a crystal palace switch.

Just occured to me I didn't build any artillery, that may have been due to lack of oil, it may have been that I just forgot/didn't notice they were available. Oops. We should be building a few of them though. Rubber is available for a 1 gold lump sum too, we should take that the turn before we get automatic weapons, it will let us upgrade our riflemen to trenchers.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

A couple of notes, not sure that LK needs them.
1) When the supreme court finishes, sell the district court in Cat.
2) We have unconnected rubber in our territory already.
3) Customs houses are better than stock exchanges, as the do the same thing and are cheaper, and we already have wall street.
4) We probably need a slow rebuild of military, but I would focus on artillary first, and then we can add tanks as soon as we get them.

My previous roster was wrong. Meldor is up NOW.
Can we please switch the military builds to rifles. I am very nervous having the capitol defended by 1 pikeman, and having border cities defending with one pike. All the offense in the work is meaningless if we can't hold our cities.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I point out that we have 4 turns left of a really expensive Military Alliance. We should cancel this ASAP. Just so we don't forget.

Lee,

You may want to swap with me as I am up in LK87 and I did Mic8 last night so need to work on the WM tonight. Otherwise I can do this one and then put LK87 off until tomorrow.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

I take it, you voted that I should work on LK87! :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-1250AD.zip

1150 AD
I drop the research rate. I don't want to waste the $50 in interest.

I don't like the fact we are back down to a single defensive unit in multiple cities. All military builds will be swapped to rifles. The city building the Supreme Court has a single pike even though the Mail can reach it in a single turn?


1160 AD
The gods get to feast on 9 workers.
(IT) The Mali joins the dog-pile against the English.
Persia then declares war on the Mali.
This is what I love to see the AI do. :)

Our rifle on a mountain goes elite fighting off 2 Persian rifles.
We now own the Supreme Court and the lovely local courthouses.

I have no idea what happened, but all of a sudden multiple cities are miserable that were fine before hitting enter.

We also complete East India Company.


1170 AD
To help with happiness problems I go from getting cash from the Aztecs for sugar to getting tobacco from them.


1180 AD
Thanks to the Mali killing a couple of rifles we are able to raze Nottingham. The Colossus is no more. The gods have 4 more sacrifices. However, the RnG was downright cruel with several dead troops.

5 more English workers are sacrificed.


1190 AD
I officially cancel the alliance with the Mali.
(IT) The Aztecs are building Eiffel Tower.


1200 AD
Kawauka is formed in what was English territory. This continues to move us toward the English wine source.
It is to bad for the English that we finally have some artillery in play.
(IT) The Aztecs and Persia sign a peace treaty. :(
The Aztecs are building Emancipation Proclamation, but it doesn't matter as the Mali complete it.


1210 AD
I still lost a couple of units, but the artillery still helped. Oxford is toasted for $1 and 2 lousy workers.

Another 4 workers are given to the gods. The English were nice enough to leave a sacrifice where we could capture it.

Since the Aztecs stabbed us in the back, I give Persia $80 for a peace treaty.


1220 AD
The gods feast on another 3 workers.

Kente is formed.


1230 AD
Thanks to artillery fire I raze Warwick losing no units. I gain another 2 sacrifices.
I ship sugar and spices to Persia for $21/turn.


1250 AD
The Aztecs beat us to Canterbury and the silks. :(
I see no reason to continue the English war, and will grab some techs.
I give England Internal Combustion and $18/turn during the peace process. We get Grand War, Marxism, and Refrigeration. Only one of the techs was mandatory, but it was still nice to gain a few.

The gods enjoy another 2 sacrifices.

==========================

Summary:
For the most part I actually went heavy military. I would leave Cattaraugus on every turn rifles. I built a lot of rifles, but our empire is still weak for defense. Any spare cash should be used for upgrades. I got a few pikes and line infantry up to rifles. Despite the numbers of rifles I built we still have to many cities with one defender, or the second defender a junk unit.

Check cities for missing cheap science buildings such as libraries. The only city I really care about staying on buildings is Caughnawaga. With having the IP and all those water tiles I want every possible revenue and science boosting building built there.

After the lab in Salamanca please start a pre-build for the Crystal Palace

With the wars over for the moment we make be able to up the building production a little.

Signed up:
LKendter (swapped)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior (vacation Mar 18 to Mar 25)
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Well here is one interesting piece of news.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-662.jpg

lurker comment: I believe both Refrig and Marxism are required. Even if they are not, they are both super useful. Nat History Museum could help boost your research rate nicely. Remember Refrig reveals some super food tiles.

I give England Internal Combustion and $18/turn during the peace process. We get Grand War, Marxism, and Refrigeration
Isn't England close to be extinct? And this will kill your rep?

I see it and it is in the queue

Isn't England close to be extinct? And this will kill your rep?
NO - Your rep is killed if you stop shipping luxuries. I included NO luxuries in this deal for that reason.

1250 AD (0)
Nothing to change, I think this is going to be a builder set. We don't have enough fast units to take a go at anyone. I don't know why we are still at war with the Celts, I make happy with them.
(I) The Mali are going for the Persians like carazy. It might be a good time to hit them in about ten turns when all their troops are on the other side. The Aztecs take out the English. The Malinese are building the Crystal Palace and the Eiffel Tower

1255 AD (1)
(I) The Aztecs and Celts make happy. Start a prebuild in Salamanca. The Aztecs start the Crystal Palace and the Malinese finish the Arc De Triomphe.

1265 AD (3)
(I)The Mali and Aztecs sign an MPP, dosn't look good for the Persians. We get Mass Production and start Motorized Transportation.

1270 AD (4)
Swap to Crystal Palace due in ten. I will have to work on getting that down.

1275 AD (5)
Mass Production, 20gpt and 275g gets us City Planning, Coffee and Military Trandition from the Persians.

1290 AD (8)
I love it when the AI uses "rail to" and it goes across our territory. The Aztec and Mali are both railing squares in our territory. Pays for the fact that they have been blocking some of our rails.
(I) The Mali and Celts make happy.

840 AD (9)
(I)The people want to build the National Library.

850 AD (10)
I built some rifles, most of our cities have rifles now. The Mali have MotTran but the Aztecs don't. We also have some luxes we can sell to the Mali as well.

Got it before vacation.

IHT: Not much, MM Sal.
Turn 1: Mali build the Eiffel tower. Arrange builds to get the cheap and effective school of Scribes.
Turn 2: Motorized transport comes in. 600 gold and MT gets us flight from Persia. Get Tea, dyes and compulsory ed from the Aztecs for MT. Flight is only worth 955 gold as they were researching it.
Turn 3: Use some laborers and get cat from 114 spt to 143!!
Turn 4: Get the Crystal Palace. Sal starts a park.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-1.jpg
Turn 5: MM some towns, start Sal on the National history meuseum. Pigtown starts the Military Academy. Mali and Persia signed peace for a fraction of a turn.
Turn 6: Mali demand tropical fruit. Nuts.
Turn 7: Sal starts the National gallery. Sugar and spice to Mali gets us cotton and gems and 9 gold. We build the Military Academy in Pig Town
Turn 8: Not too much. Start moving to set up an evil plan of mine. Call it payback.
Turn 9: Sal builds small wonder, starts a school.
Turn 10: Theory of Relativity comes in, get olive oil, 1500 gold and psych from the Mali for it. ToR and 900 gold gets us automatic weapons from the Aztecs, research set to tank warfare. Sal starts Edisons, due in 7. I will now pictorally try to tell a story.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-2.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-3.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-4.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-5.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-6.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk94-7.jpg
I upgrade all our rifles to trenchers, and our leathernecks to amphibs. Research is now set to total war in 7. Upgrade our pikes and halbarediers. We can renegotiate some trades with the Aztecs, but I leave that to the next person. I do not think I violated any of LK's house rules, and now we are a lot closer to the driver seat of this game. We probably want to build the CIA soon now.
I am happy with this set as I got everything to work properly and got us some Techs, and no evil long term deals. This is a step to making up for the last set which was a double-bogey.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK94-1350AD.SAV
If the MA was against house rules, here is the Autosave before I pulled it.
Hmm the file isn't uploading or attaching. I think this should be a legal play though.

@Romeothemonk - Please ask for a SWAP in the future. Please don't simply grab the game and play out of order!

leathernecks to amphibs.
I hope we have very few leathernecks. They are worst at defense then rifles.

If the MA was against house rules, here is the Autosave before I pulled it.
Well I only see ONE save, so I hope I have the correct one.


Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (swapped)
Zavior (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

LK, I thought I was up because you had swapped with Meldor. I am sorry if this caused any inconvience. We only have a total of 5 amphib units of any type. There are 4 amphib infantries and the leatherneck that killed the Celts. We only have 1 transport as well. I think the 6 gpt of unit upkeep and the ~500 glod to rush the transport worth it.

LK, I thought I was up because you had swapped with Meldor. OUCH - My bad. :blush: :blush:

My template was screwed up and didn't have the swapped marked correctly. Zavior should be back from vacation and is up.


Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

I got a chance to look at the game. A few thoughts come to mind:
1) We are still way short of workers.
Meldor added 3, and RTM added 0. We now have the ability to plant forest. Kawauka has an absurd 14 excess food. The plains should be mined to reduce the food count. Low corruption Akwesasne is stuck at size 7, but could grow if we clear more jungle. A lot more cities are still suffering from bad tile development.

2) The 8 defense factor machine gunner is now available. This will hold up to the AI cavalry stacks. We need to get some of these built.

3) I can't believe we are the ONLY civ building Einstein's Lab. There are several killer wonders coming up. Spirit of St. Louis (colossus effect), and Steal Foundry (100% production boast) are some of the good ones. While the WW help isn't needed from Hollywood, the content face in every city would be nice.

4) More than 8 luxuries do NOTHING for happy help. I have seen that comment several times. We now have 6 natural luxuries and import 7 more. I tried an experiment and declare war on the Mali and the Aztecs. This dropped us back to 6 luxuries, as the Persian coffee route was broken. The net effect was ONE more unhappy person in 25K sacrifice. More then 8 luxuries is a waste of trade resources
We are throwing away 20/turn for useless coffee from Persia.

5) This is the big one. We need to change tactics and STOP grabbing more land. We want to get to 8 natural luxuries (the maximum that is useful) at stop grabbing land. We need the AIs to start building settlers like crazy as that slows down their development AND is the best source of sacrifices. We are nowhere close to getting the number of workers to kill, and even if we raze every city on the map that won't be enough.

We are throwing away 20/turn for useless coffee from Persia.
A quote from my turn log...
Mass Production, 20gpt and 275g gets us City Planning, Coffee and Military Trandition from the PersiansWhile it looks like we are thorwing it away, it was taken in a deal for tech. At the time lux was set higher. I worked on getting infra in to get more happiness in various places like the cathedrals that were needed. I assume Romeo continued that.

lurker comment: one benefit of hogging the luxes is that it denies them to the AI, creating the AI clowns that are so crucial long term. A corollary to this is that once one is in the driver's seat, shipping one's own luxes to dangerous AI's can be curtailed.

Doc, is LK correct about luxes over 8, or is something else at work here?

1) Lee is not correct. It was that way in PtW/DyP, but for C3C every additional luxury will cause one Happy Face (4 with standard Marketplaces/RaR Dep Stores). That is not overpowered, btw, but the reason why so many things can cause unhappiness.

2) Just noticed something unexpected while working on RaR1.04: 'Double Sacrifices' improvements are cumulative! So, if you need a lot more cp, you can revolt into the (admittedly and intentionally horrible otherwise ;) ) Theocracy, and build a Holy Relic.

With its 20 free units, Theocracy is just slightly intriguing for an AW OCC. ;)

1) Lee is not correct. It was that way in PtW/DyP, but for C3C every additional luxury will cause one Happy Face (4 with standard Marketplaces/RaR Dep Stores). That is not overpowered, btw, but the reason why so many things can cause unhappiness.
Doc, then please explain why my experiement in dropping from 13 luxuries to 6 luxuries only gave ONE more unhappy person in 25K sacrifice? Until you can give me proof on your statement I will never agree with it.

During my turns I was working on getting our best cities better. This was my goal. Note in my turn log in 1 turn I got ~30 more spt in cat just from worker actions. I also greatly increased the spt count in pigtown, and the city by our coal, as well as 25k, and the city between 25 k and Sal.
I would not build any more military for a bit We are over unit support costs, and tanks can be built. Building anything else IMHO is completely ridiculus, even defensive units. Tanks are just too awesome in RaR.
It is an old habit to grab all the luxes possible. I would listen to the good Doctor on this one.
A thought though. We could stockpile Enemy workers in 25k, then revolt when we have ~100 of them, then let the blood flow. This is not forbidden in the rules, but might be against the spirit of the game.

I would not build any more military for a bit We are over unit support costs, and tanks can be built. Building anything else IMHO is completely ridiculous, even defensive units. Tanks are just too awesome in RaR.
I agree tanks are awesome. However, I don't want to have my empire defended with tanks. They need to get on the offensive and that requires defensive units.

What we DO want to build are some armies, and get the pentagon. 3 unit tanks armies will raze just about anything. Tanks with artillery support can pretty much destroy any units that invade our country. IMO we are still light on artillery.




It is an old habit to grab all the luxes possible. I would listen to the good Doctor on this one.
My experiment that dropped from 13 to 6 luxuries showed very little happy effect. Until someone can prove to me that luxury #9 does something, I won't believe this.


A thought though. We could stockpile Enemy workers in 25k, then revolt when we have ~100 of them, then let the blood flow. This is not forbidden in the rules, but might be against the spirit of the game.
The Holy Relic gives CULTURE. Therefore, this building is prohibited.

Doc, then please explain why my experiement in dropping from 13 luxuries to 6 luxuries only gave ONE more unhappy person in 25K sacrifice? Until you can give me proof on your statement I will never agree with it.

Ok, you got me here - I never tested it conclusively, after I knew for sure a 9th Luxury will give another HF.
And, as always in Civ, the real answer lies somewhere in the middle between :wallbash: and :crazyeye:.

Here's a large table (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Luxuries.jpg).

And we see that a total of 11 Luxuries has an effect. More do not help, though they show to give HF in the box.

Well that officially qualifies for a WHAT THE????

Heh, I did some research on that 1350 save and was going to post that both Lee & Doc were wrong, but Doc already has. I got the 12th resource as being useless as well, up to 11 every resource turns one content face happy or one unhappy content. I assume that figure of 11 is hardcoded, but no idea why. If you're going to go above 7 you may as well hardcode it at 15. I knew more than 8 were still effective, I didn't know there was a limit.

And we are importing 3 luxes from the Aztecs, but 1 deal is past 20 turns and can be cancelled. We can either cancel that, or since our territory is smaller, we might be able to play middleman for a profit. We can try and export 2 of our luxes that we're down to our last one of, and we should get more for them than we're paying for imports.

You have to skip me - I have nasty virus I cant get rid of. I'm going to format my computer tomorrow.

Signed up:
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Remember the variant rules:
I don't want to give cities to the AI just to get more workers.
We must build a city known as sacrifice. That city must build a sacrificial alter, and no other culture buildings.
We may never acquire Monasticism and may not build the GL, Encyclopedia or anything else that puts us at risk of getting Monasticism.
Foreign slaves and workers may NOT perform any tasks except to walk to the sacrificial alter.
All AI cities must be razed to generate sacrifices.

Got this as well. 10 builder/worker turns coming up.

1350: Switch Kawauka to Aqueduct, rush it
Cattaraugus has a full food box and size 15, so I switch to labourer
We don't have expansion room, and won't anytime soon, but we do have a couple of holes in our territory, with tiles that aren't in any city radius, so I wake our 2 colonists, and immediately found Owego.
Cancel our tobacco import from the Aztecs
Sell our only silver to Mali for 300 gold, we're now down to 11 luxes.
Psychology to Persia for 744 gold & 2gpt, I'd rather we get their money than Mali & Aztec conquerors
We also have a lot of cities building Factories, when they don't have the more cost effective production boosters like Town Clocks & Guild Halls. :confused: :confused: Can't switch many, as it would waste a lot of shields.

1355: Neodakheat founded

1360, 65, 70 - zzz

1375: Aztecs finish off Persia

1380: Research Total War ---> Radio
Pig Town builds League of Nations, I decline elections
Sell Total War to Mali for 5100 gold

1385: Salamanca builds Einstein's Lab

1390: Sal builds public school

1395: Sal builds school of Scribes

1400: Mali builds Wonderland
Research Radio ---> Machine Tools
Sell Radio to Mali for 4750 gold
Sell Total War & Radio to Aztecs for Machine Tools
Start research on Aviation, Salamanca needs to prebuild for Spirit of St Louis, but can't yet.

Aztecs & Mali's MPP has now expired, so our next war can start soon, and should be 2 on 1. Our aztec deals last a couple more turns, our Mali deals last 10 more. I built a lot of science & tax buildings, also built 12 labourers, some artillery, and our first machine gunners & tanks.

I see it and it is in the queue...

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)

We don't have expansion room, and won't anytime soon, but we do have a couple of holes in our territory, with tiles that aren't in any city radius, so I wake our 2 colonists, and immediately found Owego.

1355: Neodakheat founded

Owego only claims 3 new tiles. Goigouen can use all 14 of the land tiles near it and has none to spare. Flip free needs all 5 spare tiles near Owego to hit size 15. Chondote needs a lot of work to get past size 10 using all tiles that are shared by Owego. This is really late in the game to build a city that has a maximum size of 8. With work Neodakheat hits about size 7.

In order to shoehorn these 2 junk cities into our empire we lost shields in well-developed cities. I did a test and confirmed we lost a raw shield in Kahnawake BEFORE any production boasters. Every city then went higher on the rank corruption list probably lost a shield for a city that will never be that large.

Sorry, but totally disagree with you on these cities. I will not push cities with a lot of completed buildings down the rank corruption list to add a size 8 city to the empire with no buildings. I plan to abandon Neodakheat during my turns.


We also have a lot of cities building Factories, when they don't have the more cost effective production boosters like Town Clocks & Guild Halls.
I agree 100% that this is a bad build order. I hope I wasn't guilty of any other these. I always start from forge forward and factory should be the end of the list. It takes the most time and will go a lot faster if the cheaper production help is done first.

Fair enough. I might go do some research on exactly how the corruption model works. I didn't look that closely at the cities around Neodakheat on raw shields, I do know they were building units in the same amount of time both before & after. Was just a case of having 2 colonists we were paying upkeep for, building the extra cities to work more squares looked better than adding the colonists to cities for the same.


Dunno who was building factories, but it seemed they really didn't like guild halls. They're more effective than factories (25% for 200 v 50% for 500), and they give a tax bonus too.

1400 AD (0)
Ask the Malinese to move and they declare. Buy the Aztecs in for Tropicla Fruit and 60g. I then sell them Sugar for Tobacco, WM, and 51g.We were sending them Spices and Wool for 26gpt now it is Spices for silks and 11g. I guess we can't do gpt deals with them anymore? Take a scroll through our towns and no one weems to have an issue with going to war. We bomb all the units in our territory. We take out an MKIV guarding a setler and get 120 more culture. We then kill 2 rifles and a Trencher guarding another settler and get 120 more culture. We then snag that Mali worker that was working the same square in our teritory that it was last time I had the game, it goes to the alter. Sign RoP with the Aztecs to make things easier. It also allows us to kill the four trenchers guarding the settler in Aztec territory. It gets us 3 more slaves that die upon the alter. 10 sacrifices and the culture of the altar is still behind that of Salamanca. I then move our defenses to cover our workeres and to have more defnese on the Mali side of our borders. I start a pre-build due the same turn the tech is. due
(I)The Mali attack the defenders and grab a big ol' stack of workers on the mountain. I thought I had enough defenders but three didn't cut it. They also try to take another stack near Ganogeh but fail.

1405 AD (1)
Kill the MKIV and recover our workers. Put six units on top of them this time. I clean up allthe units around and move the two slaves back into our lands.
(I) A couple of counters but nothing serious. Lots of Aztec movement towards the other side. Guess that was were the majority of the Mali troops were waiting.

1410 AD (2)
Two more slaves fall on the altar. clean up all the untis in our lands and gt an elite Cav doing it. Move a stack of defenders, arty and MKIV on top of the mountain next to Dosso. I leave enough arty at home to pound troops moving into our borders.
(I)The Mali lose a couple of MKIV atacking Kahnawake but we get an elite MKIV out of it. They even move more sacrifices into Dosso for us.

1415 AD (3)
WE kill the stray units and then pound Dosso. After killing off all the defneders we raze the city and Wonderland. It nets us 12 more slaves for the altar. I move them back on top of the mountain to be safe until next turn. The only thing left exposed is the rifle that I had to use to kill the arty piece left in the city.
(I)The Mali get a retreat of an MKIV and we lose a Machine Gunner when they attack Kahnawake. That seems to be their favorite target. They leave our rifle only as I put a couple of Machine Gunners on top.

1420 AD (4)
12 slave die on the altar and we go over the 4K mark. We pound the city of Dogondoutchi and move a big stack of MKIV next to it so we can raze it next turn, grab some more slaves and get some furs under our control.
(I) WE lose a rifle and a Machine Gunner.

1425 AD (5)
Dogondoutchi is razed but we only get 9 slaves from it, bummer. Teh next target city is Maraoi which is size 19 and has the olives. We found a city on top of the furs. Move the stack of arty over to Kahnawake in preparation for the attack next turn.
(I) Watch a lot of Aztec units die. We get the Spirit of St Louis.

1430 AD (6)
We bombard and then raze the city of Maraoi (Szie 19) and with it burns Unversal Sufferage. That would have been a good wonder for us and we apply suffering to everyone. This nets us ten more slaves. Speaking of slaves, 9 more hit the altar.
(I)Watch more Aztec units die.

1435 AD (7)
Oops, we accidentally raze Kano and grab 6 workers. The 10 from the last raze go to the altar and we break the 5K culture barrier and I get the culture above that of Salamanca for the first time in my turn. Kill off some stray units. Found a city to get the erst of the olives.
(I)Not much at all.

1440 AD (8)
The city of Jenne is burnt to the ground and with it Copernicus' Observatory but it only yields 6 slaves. I get an MGL cleaning up some stray units. I will use it to rush the War College in a city. BTW, I think I have all of our native workers upgraded.
(I) Not much happens. The Mali seem to be taking it to the Aztecs on the other side of the world. It is a good thing we are ripping out their core.

1445 AD (9)
Our troops begin the march on the city of Belgrade. It was a little selfish of me. Gao was the next big target, but it could have been gotten within my turns.
(I)Not much, we finish the rushed War College.

1450 AD (10)
Oh no, the Taj Mahal burns in Belgrade, but we get eight more slaves to hit the altar. While cleaning up the stray units, I get another MGL. I will leave it unused so that we can rush the Pentagon next turn when our third army is completed.

Oh yeah, starting 25K cultrure was 3356, ending culture was 5556. Let the blood flow.