The technical bits:

C3C 1.22

Civ: tbd - see below
Difficulty: Monarch
World Size: Standard [Possibly Small, but with 7 opponents?]
Everything else: random

Variant Rules:
We may never build ground units with a move rate above 1. This means no upgrades allowed to Mech Inf (if the game gets that far) or Radar Artillery (again...), of course.
No Armies, no SoZ!

Standard SG rules/etiquette apply.

Roster:
eldar
Ville
Veovim
Tone
Minute Man

This is the start chosen:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save1.jpg

The actual save file, Save #1, is attached later on in the thread.

Choosing the Civ.
The following Civs are definitely out because their UU is land-based and has move > 1, or even worse (in the case of the Aztecs) their basic warrior unit has move 2:

Aztecs (Jag Warrior);
Incas (Chasqui Scout);
Zulus (Impi);
Egypt (War Chariot);
Hittites (3-Man Chariot);
Iroquois (Mounted Warrior);
Celts (Gallic Swordsman);
China (Rider);
Mongols (Keshik);
Arabia (Ansar Warrior);
India (War Elephant);
Japan (Samurai);
Russia (Cossack);
Ottomans (Sipahi);
Germany (Panzer);
Spain (Conquistador).

The other expansionist Civs (Portugal, America) are also out, as they start with a Scout.

So, we are left with a choice of:
Sumeria (Enkidu Warrior) <-- Not totally averse to it, but very early.
Greece (Hoplite) <-- GOTM40, too early for my liking.
Carthage (Numidian Mercenary) <-- Not totally opposed, but still a bit early.
Babylon (Bowman) <-- Earliness issues once again.
Maya (Javelin Thrower) <-- Same as Babylon.
Persia (Immortals) <-- One of the best choices, a unit that is good to go for a full 2 ages.
Rome (Legionary) <-- Not bad, but TR02 (still playing) is Rome.
Byzantines (Dromon) <-- Best sea UU there is. Only really effective on a 'pelago map.
Netherlands (Swiss Mercenary) <-- Great defense, great timing, but not so hot on killing stuff.
Scandinavia (Berserk) <-- Would be a top choice, but expensive and only effective on 'pelagos (or specially-constructed maps).
France (Musketeer) <-- I'm not a fan.
England (Man-O-War) <-- Getting a bit late in the day, but a decent enough boat.
Korea (Hwach'a) <-- Might be interesting - a much-maligned unit.

I've not forgotten anyone have I...?

Sumeria (Enkidu Warrior) UU:*** Traits:****
Greece (Hoplite) UU:** Traits:**
Carthage (Numidian Mercenary) UU:* Traits:***
Babylon (Bowman) UU:* Traits:**
Maya (Javelin Thrower) UU:*** Traits:*****
Persia (Immortals) UU:***** Traits:****
Rome (Legionary) UU:*** Traits:***
Byzantines (Dromon) UU:**** Traits:***
Netherlands (Swiss Mercenary) UU:** Traits:****
Scandinavia (Berserk) UU:**** Traits:**
France (Musketeer) UU:**** Traits:****
England (Man-O-War) UU:** Traits:***
Korea (Hwach'a) UU:? Traits:**

That would leave me with:
Sumeria (Enkidu Warrior) UU:*** Traits:****
Maya (Javelin Thrower) UU:*** Traits:*****
Persia (Immortals) UU:***** Traits:****
Rome (Legionary) UU:*** Traits:***
Byzantines (Dromon) UU:**** Traits:***
Netherlands (Swiss Mercenary) UU:** Traits:****
Scandinavia (Berserk) UU:**** Traits:**
France (Musketeer) UU:**** Traits:****

I would pick France, great UU, nice traits and good in all maps :)

Signing in BTW ;)

not a sign in but suggest to make a small map or you guys will get really bored moving foot soldiers around :)

regretably NOT a sign up.
but will definity lurk.
if youre short i could fill in sometimes.

i would go for persia, as the IMMORALS are, for lack of a better word.... immortal ;)

as for land, how about a 3 billion, wet, world? that would also slow the opposition.

I'll be away from the 14th to the 18th, but if that's not a problem, I'll sign up.

@Ville, veovim:
Welcome to the game :)

@dman:
Yeah, I did think that maybe a small map would work better. I also though that using a custom .biq to allow more than 5 opponents would be interesting, though I'm not sure how to pull that off and still get a random map. I'll investigate in the editor this evening, shouldn't be too difficult. If so, how does Small, with 7 opponents (as opposed to 5) sound?

Discounting all choices of Civ but 3:
Persians would be too easy, IMO.

Vikes, well, I like the UU, but if we wound up on a Pangaea, they're a bit expensive just for souped-up MedInfs.

Having seen what Bamspeedy achieved with Musketeers and bombard units in his Beyond Sid game, I like the idea of going with France. A stack of Treb/Cannon, MedInf, and Muskets would be dangerous indeed. Or we could make it even harder and say we can only use Muskets+bombarders once we get Gunpowder?!

@sw, regarding climate etc:
Warm/Wet/3billion is great for slowing down the AI, it's also great for terrain impenetrable by our artillery (jungles, swamps, mountains...). I generally always go with random climate and age, least then I can't blame myself for a bad choice :)

Sounds different. Good for practicing warring skills in games where ainwood has been stingy with resources in C/GOTM. ;) Can I sign up please?

I'll sign up. I've been getting rather addicted to the horse/knight/cavalry blitz lately, so it'll be nice to do something different.

As for the civ, Persia would get my vote, but France would be fine, too.

Okay, Tone and MM complete the roster. I'll roll a start or two tomorrow (busy on COTM10 tonight).

I'll be lurking with random comments to send y'all back to the stone ages... ;)

well, I guess there's no room left. If there is I'll join, though.

btw, to get a random map with an edited game, just leave the map blank (all water). When you start, it will act as a random map.

Just uncheck custom map even if you have a custom map and it will be random ;)

I wouldn't like to play Persia because 1) Too easy 2) Overplayed
but I can play with them too if everyone else wants to :)

Attacking only with Musketeers wouldn't be too wise, they are excellent defensive UU with +1 def and def bombard. I would take MDIs and Cannons with Musketeers and we'd have pretty immortal stack :p

Just a check: everyone's alright with France, small world, modded for 7 opponents?

Yes (XCL...)

Just a check: everyone's alright with France, small world, modded for 7 opponents?
Sounds good to me.

When do we see some startup pics for us lurkers to discuss :lol:

Just a check: everyone's alright with France, small world, modded for 7 opponents?

Fine with me.

@dman: When I get home from work :)

France is fine with me. I've hardly played them so something else that'll be new to me.

Darn, I rolled a great start then realised the save was probably infected with the tech rate bug :( Back to the drawing board....

Okay, I rolled a bunch of starts in the end, making sure I'd started a random Small map beforehand (to prevent the tech rate bug... like I should've done before making the first map from my .biq :wallbash: )

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save1.jpg
A bit rocky for my liking. Are those floodplains to the north?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save2.jpg
Nice open ground, a lux, but no fresh water in sight.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save3.jpg
I don't think we'll be playing this one - well it'll be the most challenging, at least.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save4.jpg
Shiny! Water, too. I like the look of this one.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_save5.jpg
Two food bonuses, but both on plains, and no immediate water.

definetely start 1 or 5
River and BGs will outbid all other benefits.
Start5 has nice food bonuses but with no river in close proximity it is not as good

Desipte the lack of water, I'm plumping for Save #5. That said, a 4-turn pump might make this game a little too easy, which brings #1 and #4 into play.

[Edit]The more I look at #1, the more I like it. Those are certainly flood plains to the north, which means full value for the hills/mountains. 2 BGs for early shields. Yeah, I'm sold on #1. #5 might involve a trek to find water.

#5 is only a good start if there is fresh water near. I like #1 for the river - looks ike we would get at least two more river sites in our core due to the spur.

Plus the commercial trait. Rivers+commercial = good :-)

I vote for #1 as well. #5 has food bonuses, but if there isn't any water nearby, all those plains aren't going to be very useful.

Okay, assuming start #1, I'll settle on the spot (see no reason not to), move the worker to the SW BG, and post a pic of what I see :)

[Post-plonk]
Holey moley, can you say 'Bonus Grassland'! 6 of 'em! Plus what's lurking under that Forest?
Cripes, this place is gonna be a shield monster.

suggest to move settler and worker to opposite mountains. You will regret if there is a cow or two just outside of city borders. (remember TR02?) :)

never mind cross post :)

I make it a round 25spt @ Size 12 out of Despotism: 6 BGs (12spt, 12fpt), 2 FPs (8fpt), 2 hills (6spt+, 2fpt), 2 mountains (6spt+), city square (1spt, 2fpt).

If my maths is right, that's 24fpt, 25spt.

We are at 3000BC, and it's crowded. Very crowded. Like, well, you'll see. We had a spot of luck, a serious heart-in-mouth moment, and not a lot else.

BC 4000 Plonk down Paris in situ, get 6 BGs, 2 flood plains, enough to be getting on with. Worker to the SW BG. Research Writing @ Max. F10 gives us our opponents: Spain, Otto, Persia, Greece, Carthage, Vikes, Korea. Great, 5 of our opponents start with Alphabet, and 3 with Masonry. So our starting techs are already widely known. Good news front, all but 2 have fast UUs and of those, only one is any good. Building a Warrior.

3 3850 A Korean warrior turns up already. Masonry nets us BW+10g. IT: The warrior goes away. I had my heart in my mouth… he could just as easily have moved next to Paris, declared, and it would've been game over in 3750BC!

4 3800

IT: Warrior->Warrior.

5 3750 Worker roads. Warrior (renamed "Eric") heads off to explore. Onto the south mountain, and Seoul's borders are already visible!

7 3650 I've never seen an AI capital so close. Worker moves to the next BG.

8 3600

IT: Warrior->Warrior.

9 3550 Warrior #2 (henceforth, Zinedine) heads off north. More AI borders, close by.

IT: Our borders expand, engulfing the Goody Hut, and:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_pottery.jpg

:dance:

10 3500 Out other immediate neighbours are Persia. The three capitals borders are touching each other.

11 3450

IT: Warrior->Granary. A Barb pops his head out of the fog between Paris and Seoul.

12 3400 Warrior goes to MP duty. Worker roads. Meet Spain; sell Pottery for 19g.

13 3350

IT: X-man boots Zinedine.

14 3300 Get WC from X-man for Pottery+31g. Change Paris to another Warrior, I'll pop a Settler first, then the Granary.

IT: Warrior->Settler.

15 3250 Worker mines. Eric disturbs some Barbs.

IT: Eric flawlessly kills a Barb and promotes :) Scandinavia becomes the next contact.

16 3200 Sell Ragnar Pottery for 20g.

19 3050 Worker roads. Contact with Ottos. Looks like a Pangaea.

20 3000 Nothing to report last turn. Settler due IT, where to take him? Can we afford to build a Granary? It's already very busy out there.

3000BC world:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_3000BC.jpg

Neil. :cool:

Roster:
eldar <- Just played
Ville
Veovim
Tone
Minute Man

Anyone of you can pick up and play, just post a "got it" and go. First come first served, it'll determine the order from there on in.
10 turns from now on, 24 hours got it/skip, 48 hours play.

That certainly is crowded. As for where to send the settler, I might do W-W-NW of Seoul for the bonus grasslands, or a maybe a bit further south for the silks. The Koreans obviously aren't going to be happy either way, but that won't be a problem for too long. :hammer:

Speaking of which, do we want to try to rush Xerxes before he gets immortals?

I would also like to see what is to our immediate east, to place a city around the furs.

That certainly is crowded. As for where to send the settler, I might do W-W-NW of Seoul for the bonus grasslands, or a maybe a bit further south for the silks. The Koreans obviously aren't going to be happy either way, but that won't be a problem for too long. :hammer:

Speaking of which, do we want to try to rush Xerxes before he gets immortals?

I would also like to see what is to our immediate east, to place a city around the furs.

All sounds good to me. Furs first, settle 1NE of them. Get a Rax in Paris and build an Archer before the next Settler. Granary will have to wait. We're grabbing our land by fighting. First settled city should go Rax->units after the first warrior/worker.

Good grief. Maybe a small map + 7 opponents wasn't such a good idea, after all. :) Well, at least our foot units won't have far to walk.

I agree with grabbing the furs, but I don't think the spot NE of them is actually on the river (though I haven't looked at the save yet to make sure). One space SE might be better.

Koreans actually look like a good first target. Persia may or may not be a problem, depending on where the iron is (and if it's this crowded, there's a pretty decent chance he won't have it).

This is going to be a crazy game. I like it! :)

Can I suggest going for the game to the south before the furs.

Happiness can be solved with the lux slider but that early high production with game and two bgs can either get a decent archer factory going for an early archer rush. I would go for the furs next as their extra shields are useful but the game tile is 2 sh/2 fd without any improvements. A core of three/four towns can produce enough archers to take out a nearby civ of our choosing but we'll need to be on good terms with the others to avoid being hit when our forces are otherwise engaged. Once we have another civs land we can steamroller the rest!

Later when we need to fill in the gaps that our military create we can chop the forest and build a granary there. An early war is a must. A granary town producing settlers will fill in the gaps of towns demolished but without the military we'll have no land to fill.

Got it! I'll see what I can do :)

Turn 20
Looking good

(IBT)
Paris: Settler->Rax (14)

Turn 21
Our brave warrior called Eric attacks a hairy smelling uncivilized barbarian warrior who lives in mountains. Lost 2 hp, no promotion, spots silks.
Worker moves SW.
Settler goes SE.
Warrior called Jacques follows Settler.

(IBT)
Another hairy and smelling warrior spotted by Eric.

Turn 22
Eric is hurt so he tries to get past this strange man by running to forest next to the mountain.
Worker mines.
Settler goes E. And so does Jacques.

(IBT)
The hairy and smelling man in mountains doesn’t see Eric.
Jacques sees another member of this disgusting clan!

Turn 23
Eric tries to sneak behind the warrior. He’s now in mountains again.
Jacques and settler travel further E. Place looks good, it has fresh water and small fluffy animals. Further, 2 tiles SE, Jacques can hardly see some wheat. It’s foggy so he’s not sure.
Zinedine has found a big salty lake!

(IBT)
The warrior surprises Eric and he’s struggling. Suddenly he remembers what his father told him when leaving the glorious city of Paris: ”The future of France is on your hands, don’t let us down.” Eric gets power and kills the enemy with his big axe. He’s promoted and is now elite. He’s now known as Eric the Valiant, hero of France.
Hairy warrior is almost in the gates of Paris. He must be stopped!

Turn 24
Meanwhile, Jacques has found wheat, his eyes didn’t lie, settler follows him SE.
Eric the Valiant is tired and wants to sleep. Permission granted.
General Ville decides to wait and see how the enemy moves before attacking. If he climbs to mountains, we shall defend. If he comes down, we shall strike!

(IBT)
The warrior moves to mountains. We can’t take risks. We will defend Paris.

Turn 25
Jacques and settler decide to found city of Orleans.
Persians know how to produce weapons made of Iron. We want to do that also!

(IBT)
Good thing our troops didn’t attack the warrior, Korean warrior attacked and didn’t even hit the warrior!
The warrior moves to open ground.

Turn 26
The time to strike is now! Kill! Kill!
Our warrior in Paris kills the barbarian warrior without even becoming dirty! Victory! Victory!
He shall be called, Didier the Brave from now on.

(IBT)
Carthaginian warrior spotted near Orleans.

Turn 27
Eric the Valiant wakes up and continues his journey. Spots Dyes near us!
Didier the Brave gets back to Paris. Big celebration begins.

(IBT)
Nothing special.

Turn 28
Koreans are backwards and so I buy IW from them for WC+Pottery
Messieurs, WE HAVE 2 IRONS!
Worker finished his jobs and moves towards Iron.
Eric the Valiant and Zinedine continue exploring.

(IBT)
It’s quiet without those smelling warriors!

Turn 29
Zinedine spots Goody Hut.
Eric the Valiant enters the lands of Ottomans. Spots big city called Istanbul.

(IBT)
Paris grows. It is now just as big as Istanbul.

Turn 30
Worker begins to build a road to Iron.

-------------------------
I thought this song would be great national anthem for us :p

Manowar – Battle Hymn

By moonlight we ride
Ten thousands side by side
With swords drawn held high
Our whips and armours shine
Hail to thee our infantry
Still brave beyond the grave
All have sworn the eternal vow
The time to strike is now

Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !

Gone are the days when freedom shone
Now blood and steel meet bone
In the light of the battle's way
The sands of time will shade
How proud our soldiers stand
With mace and chain in hand
Sound the charge into glory ride
Over the top of the vanguished pride

Victory, victory, Oh !
Victory, victory, Oh !
Victory, victory, Oh !
Victory, victory, Oh !

To the battle we ride
We crossed a starlit sky
No space no time
We'll catch the wind
Strange losses, men died
We crossed a starlit sky
And still no space or time
We'll catch the wind

Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !

Sound of charge into glory ride
Over the top of the anguished pride
By moonlight we ride
Ten thousand side by side

Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !
Kill, kill, Oh !

Good going :-) We'll snag both sources of Iron, too - just get some culcha in Orleans and Seoul won't be able to touch the one close by (it's in Orleans' 2nd ring, Seoul's 3rd).

[Edit]
Build a Warrior then a Settler. Rax in 3, growth in 10; when it finishes, it'll be growth in 7, Settler in 6 @ 5spt. So we can get another Warrior out first.

Getting dotmap ideas but I'm at work so can't produce one.
Thoughts: by the Dyes, SW of the Game; by the Silks, in the jungle, on the river bend. Game tile is the better bet for first up.

Roster:
eldar
Ville <- just played
Veovim
Minute Man
Tone

Still first come, first served for the first round.

I doubt I'll be able to get to this before tomorrow evening (that's evening for GMT-500). Tone or Minute Man, if either of you can get to it before then, feel free, otherwise this can be my 'got it'.

I'm only on turn 5, but I'd like some input. Here's what's happened so far:

First off, a dot map. Is this more or less what you were aiming for Eldar?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-dotmap1.jpg

IT - Things look good, so I press enter.
Writing comes in. I'm not sure whether we should keep the set path of CoL then philo, or just go for philo. I decide to try to get CoL based on my previous experience. I usually go writing on min, then max to philo. Since we did writing on max, it should even out.
Do we want to establish any embassies? Doesn't matter - we can't afford to.

2510 BC (Turn 1) - Eric and Zinedine keep exploring. Zinedine gets barbs.

2470 BC (Turn 2) - Eric gets booted to the other side of Ottoman territory. Zinedine kills a barb.
Greece shows up. Trade Alexander Iron Working for The Wheel and 20 gold. Horses are south of Paris.
Only Osman doesn't have Iron Working now, so I trade it to him for Ceremonial Burial and his 5 gold. Osman has Math, but we aren't getting it without trading writing.

2430 BC (Turn 3) - Paris Barracks > Warrior
Orleans Worker > Barracks
The new worker starts irrigating the wheat at Orleans.
Zinedine walks out to a mountain on what looks like a peninsula - it is.

2390 BC (Turn 4) - Osman has a worker up for trade. The first post says "standard SG rules." Does that mean that we can buy workers this early or not? IIRC, you can't under RB, but can under LK. However, the LK games are deity, this is not. I think it would hurt the AI too much so I don't make the trade. Sorry if this is a mistake.
A Greek warrior wanders by Orleans, but it looks like it is passing through.

2350 BC (Turn 5) - The Greeks declare war? :eek: They raze Orleans? :cry: This is an unwelcome surprise.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-ruins.jpg
The new warrior also comes in at Paris.

Now for some questions:
1) What do we do with the worker? Move south and hope Alex doesn't have someone waiting (two squares south is fog)? Then try to get home through Korea?
2) Do we still want to have Paris produce a settler?
3) If we produce the settler, where do we want to send it?
4) What aggression level did you set the AIs to eldar? This is the first time I've ever seen one try this.
5) Losing Orleans has screwed up our tech situation. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to try for both CoL and philo any more. What does everyone else think?

Sneak attacked in 2350 BC? Ouch! :eek:

1) You pretty much have to run (and hope) with the worker; south is probably the best bet. There isn't really anything else to do.
2) I don't think we want to try any offensive operations yet; just try to hold off the Greeks until we can get peace. Maybe one more warrior in Paris, just to be on the safe side, but then back to a settler - we really need more cities.
3) Away from Greece, methinks. :) Probably toward your red dot.
4) Don't know, but I suspect the extra-crowded conditions have something to do with the attack. I've never seen this, either.
5) That depends - does anybody else have writing yet? Or more than one city themselves?

Btw, your pink dot is one space off the coast, which is always annoying, though I'm not sure where else it could go. Maybe one space SE? We'll still get the wheat if we found on the red dot as well.

You should change the location of pink dot. Pink dot needs to be where Orleans used to be.

Oh, and as long as I'm delurked, I'll add that three tile spacing may be important, since it's infantry only. (Which apparantly bans Mech Infantry :) ;))

5) That depends - does anybody else have writing yet? Or more than one city themselves?
We have a monopoly on writing, but everyone else has at least 2 cities.

That's a tough call. I'd be sort of inclined to go ahead and finish CoL (especially since we have 5 turns invested already), then decide whether it's worth trying for Phil at that point. Even if we can't pull off the slingshot, it's not the end of the world; we'll still have a CoL monopoly to trade around for other techs.

I'll add mine to Minute Man's as they are similar:
1) You pretty much have to run (and hope) with the worker; south is probably the best bet. There isn't really anything else to do.agreed!
2) I don't think we want to try any offensive operations yet; just try to hold off the Greeks until we can get peace. Maybe one more warrior in Paris, just to be on the safe side, but then back to a settler - we really need more cities.I know we need another town asap but it's no good if it's going to get razed so I would go further and go for an archer first.
3) Away from Greece, methinks. :) Probably toward your red dot.That was my preferred option before but I didn't know about the river and wheat. I would recommend this for now though and then get some archers out of it!
4) Don't know, but I suspect the extra-crowded conditions have something to do with the attack. I've never seen this, either.I haven't seen it either but I usually get wary around the time when good land is running out. I guess that we've reached that stage already! We now need to make sure that we are not dogpiled hence the need for settlers and offensive units.
5) That depends - does anybody else have writing yet? Or more than one city themselves?. I would carry on-it's only monarch and they will normally go for MM after writing.

Tomoyo is correct, Pink Dot should move to ex-Orleans. There's some Dyes as well, by some Jungle; though Persia may have taken them. Tough call on the Greek DoW. At least they're a long way off?! They're one of the ones I didn't meet.

Agression level is normal, but this feels like an 80% water Pangaea. Very limited room. AIs will run out of it quickly. And Orleans, undefended, is (a) an easy target; (b) a prime target, with its two Furs. Then (c) Monarch AIs do start with, IIRC, 1 offensive and 2 defensive units (maybe the other way round). So Greece with its 2 bonus Hoplites will feel they are somewhat harder than anyone else on the map right now.

I know we need another town asap but it's no good if it's going to get razed so I would go further and go for an archer first.

I missed that we have WC already. So, yeah, build an archer or two.

And I agree that we want to re-found Orleans, but we need to deal with the Greek situation first.

2350 BC (Turn 5 resumed) - Worker goes south, no Greeks in sight.
Eric and Zinedine keep exploring.
Science at 100% now gives CoL in 27 turns at -3gpt. We only have 26 gold (and it will be a while before we can found a city to help with unit costs, so I move it down to 80%. CoL due in 32 turns at -2 gpt.
Swap Paris to Archer.

2310 BC (Turn 6) - Worker finishes roading iron. We won't have enough food to work that for a while, so I move him down to start roading to the red dot.

2270 BC (Turn 7) - The Koreans don't like our worker walking through their lands, but don't give a move or declare order yet.

2230 BC (Turn 8) - The Koreans are moving a settler pair to the west. I sure hope we can get a city there still.

2190 BC (Turn 9) - Paris archer > warrior
The Greek barbarian is walking up to Paris. I move the archer on to the gold hill to meet him.
The archer puts us at -3gpt again. Move science down to 70%. It's going to need to drop again for a turn or two when the settler gets out.
Persia now has writing!
Will the Ottomans trade us Math for Writing? Nope. Does this mean Greece knows it, the Ottomans are about to learn it, or both?
Spain picked up HBR. Writing isn't enough for that either? So much for trade value.

2150 BC (Turn 10) - Attack and flawlessly kill the Greek.
Paris grows, so science can go back up to 80%.

Here's a view of the world. There are dyes south of Barcelona, and and a Korean settler pair somewhere south of our workers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-2150BC.jpg

And the save:

Variant Rules:
We may never build ground units with a move rate above 1. This means no upgrades allowed to Mech Inf (if the game gets that far) or Radar Artillery (again...), of course.
No Armies, no SoZ! If we capture the SoZ it must be razed if it is still active.

Roster check:
eldar
Ville
Veovim -> just played
Tone -> up
Minute Man -> on deck

@eldar:I was not a trainer but a trainee in the game I started.

Wow! Tough start... I hate when AIs declare so early.
Good luck guys, i am sure you will fix the situation soon.

I'm sorry but I won't be able to play until tomorrow evening. If it's OK with you, eldar and Minute Man can play before this we could swap the rota order if this helps keep momentum. Otherwise I'll post a 'got it' and play my turns after work Tues.

OK-consider this a 'got it'.

edit-did we agree on the first location? Game or wheat? If anyone is out there please advise otherwise I'll go for the game.

Ok-maybe the wheat looks better now!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83988&stc=1

turn 0 (2150)
Press enter!

turn 1 (2110)
Archer onto hill to spot any Greek swine approaching. Workers road BG in south. Erik and Zin continue to scout.

IBT
Korea build town close to game. Cathage has obviously researched Myst and traded with Persia for writing.

turn2 (2070)
Workers head north to get road towards the east. Greeks still refuse our envoy. Reduce research to 70% and still lose 1gpt.

IBT
Mapstat tells me that Greece has Myst but not Writing so maybe they will trade with peace. Vikings have a worker and need techs but if we are passing up worker deals in the early game...

turn 3 (2030)
However, Greece will not even give us a peace deal if we give them Writing for nothing!

IBT
Caught between a rock and a hard place: Persia demands all our gold and we are running a negative budget. If I give in we lose an improvement or a unit. They declare war.
Paris:settler>sword.

turn 4 (1990)
Reduce research to 20% until we settle. Settler and vet warrior move 2 east.

IBT
Ottomans now have Myst and Maths.

turn 5 (1950)
Workers road towards furs and war/settler continue their journey.

turn 6 (1910)
settler/war in place, one worker chops and the other moves to the other furs.

turn 6 (1870)
Found Lyons (rax). Up research to 80%.

turn 7 (1830)
zzz (BTW Greece wants Lyons for PT and Persians will not talk)

turn 8 (1790)
1st forest chopped, furs in 2.

turn 9 (1750)
Persian spear/settler head right for our iron (protected by the archer), 2nd worker roads furs.

turn 10 (1725)
furs connected to Paris, worker mines.

Minute Man: You may want to send the archer towards the Persian settler/spear and see if you can highjack them or wait for the sword next turn. I'll leave this part of the turn to you as you will have to deal with the consequences! :)
If you wish to switch the build in our 2nd town please be my guest. For example we can get a reg sword once the road is connected or a granary-the choice is yours!
There is a Persian reg warrior E of Bergen if you want to send the elite after him.

All: Sorry if you disagree with not paying the Persians but we could have lost our barracks if we had given in. Luckily there has been no offensive action against us during my 10 turns. Maybe a couple of swords and get Perse? :) I suggest that our next town is built at the end of the road, SE of game-views?

the save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83995&stc=1)

Heh, this is turning into a bit of an OCC. I think we should concentrate on Swords for now, and use 'em to punish the enemy. Clear a firebreak.

I agree! Paris is quite productive with so many bgs. Maybe when we get to size 3 we should get some archers out instead though. 7 shields/turn will give three archers in 9 turns rather than two swords in 10.

Yeah, I think I would have refused Xerxes, too. I hate giving in to demands, and this way we have an excuse to clear out a little more breathing room. With this much crowding, war is probably our best bet for expansion.

Got it. I'll see what I can do.

OK, I take back what I said about clearing out some breathing room - I hadn't realized just how weak we are. It's 1725 BC, and our empire has a total population of 3! :eek: Now that I've looked at the save, here are my thoughts:

1) Our military is pretty pathetic, and it's going to be growing at the rate of one sword every five turns. That's not going to be enough to do any serious damage to Persia for a while. We can probably hold our ground, but I wouldn't really feel comfortable marching on Persepolis without a minimum of 3-4 swords, which will take a while.

2) We're not going to pull off the Republic slingshot. We're still 13 turns from CoL, our economy is pretty small, and we lost our Writing monopoly a while ago.

3) All of our other neighbors are growing bigger and bigger, while we're devoting what little production we do have to military builds.

So, I think we really need to drag some others into the war onto our side. I'm thinking about turning down research to the minimum for a bit, accumulating enough cash to establish a couple of embassies, and trying to buy alliances with Writing before Cit gets around any further. Spain vs. Persia is the obvious first choice, and then perhaps Korea.

Also, now that I think about it, we should try to bring our wandering warriors home and upgrade them. Which, of course, takes more cash that we don't have. So it looks like max research is a luxury we won't be able to afford for a while. We'll have to get our tech some other way.

We really do need growth, so I'm a little tempted to switch the build in Paris to a granary, but I think we do need some swords first. But Lyons should definitely get a granary instead of a barracks. Then hopefully in 15-20 turns we'll be ready to conduct some offensive operations.

What do you guys think about this plan?

I suspect that we might be able to hit Persia and cripple them as if they had a decent military why haven't we seen it? We are weak but their strength comes from the number of towns and thus their *potential* production.

I would like to see granaries in both our cities but as that is risky whilst we are at war switching the Lyons build to granary was one of the options I was thinking of. I was also toying with the idea of getting a sword from Lyons (in my mind the rax was just a placeholder whilst the forests were cut and Lyons connected to the iron) and then a couple archers from Paris and then going for granaries. We could then strike Perse with 2 swords and three archers towards the end of your turns but this is only a suggestion. If it works, it gives us our third city so it could be worth the risk!

I am tempted to see the research through. None of them have MM or Poly yet and these techs normally appear first in my games-we could use CoL to buy peace if we have to (with the Greeks) but personally I am keen to take on Persia whist they may not have iron connected. However if we go for granary builds then we will need to get more cash and this is the only way

BTW I was trying to get the warriors back once Persia declared but evictions did not go our way and they were a long way from home!

Before you drag Spain in against Persia, make sure that Persia isn't a threat to take Spain's iron city. That would really suck.

I suspect that we might be able to hit Persia and cripple them as if they had a decent military why haven't we seen it? We are weak but their strength comes from the number of towns and thus their *potential* production.

True, but they probably do have two or three spears, at least, defending Persepolis, and our offensive might consists of one archer (and one sword about to be built).

I was also toying with the idea of getting a sword from Lyons (in my mind the rax was just a placeholder whilst the forests were cut and Lyons connected to the iron) and then a couple archers from Paris and then going for granaries. We could then strike Perse with 2 swords and three archers towards the end of your turns but this is only a suggestion.

That's actually a reasonable plan. I think I may do that - weakening Persia would be really nice. But still, 2 archers=8 turns, so we won't be able to attack Persepolis until early in the next player's turns.

I am tempted to see the research through. None of them have MM or Poly yet and these techs normally appear first in my games-we could use CoL to buy peace if we have to (with the Greeks) but personally I am keen to take on Persia whist they may not have iron connected.

Well, like I said, I don't think we'll be able to get Philo first. And I think we have a pretty decent shot at getting CoL first even if we turn down research for a while. Now that I've thought about it some more, I'm not so sure that getting alliances is a good idea, but having the cash to upgrade a warrior to add to the strike on Persepolis would be really nice. And we're going to have to turn research down soon anyway if we keep building military, as we currently have 7 of our 8 allowed units.

I just don't see the sense in putting all of our economy into research, especially if it's something non-vital like CoL, when we're this tiny and at war with two other civs. We have better things to do with our money.

Before you drag Spain in against Persia, make sure that Persia isn't a threat to take Spain's iron city. That would really suck.

Yeah, I know. I just wish we had more of the map explored, so we knew for sure whether Xerxes has access to any more iron.

We can get CoL first, and it'll be good for some trading, and getting AIs off our backs. For starters, I'd like to see if we can get peace with our enemies - as long as the demands aren't too ridiculous (like, say, the ask for Lyons).

Other than that, we have two requirements:
1. Growth in Paris.
2. Units.

Of course, until Lyons is up and running - a Rax, then whatever it can produce - we can't really do both very well.

What I propose is:
1. Get a Flood Plain irrigated and roaded.
2. Build Archers instead of Swords, until we can get 10+spt.

With this, at size 3, Paris gets +3fpt and 5spt, working one Flood Plain and 2 BGs. Better growth, and still a unit every 4 turns.

Edit:
Now I've had a look...

Paris:
As soon as the Worker's finished roading the Furs (in the inter-turn), head to the Flood Plains and start on them. After the first Sword (use it to cover the Worker), switch back to Archers. Keep checking the Worker on the Flood Plain - when he says '1 turn to go' on the irrigation, switch Paris to working that tile. Paris will get the extra food in the next inter-turn. Of course if only 2 food is needed to grow anyway, don't make the switch.

(Having done the maths, should be on Turn 4 of the set, 1625BC).

Lyons:
Keep it as it is until 1 turn from growth. Then switch to the Furs being mined.
I'm not sure which tile will be picked on growth - probably the other roaded Furs, but may be the Wheat. Next priority for the Worker currently mining should be working the Wheat tile, though.

Edit 2:
Don't bother talking to Greece. It's Lyons or nothing. Persia aren't talking.

Whoops! Please accept my apologies. I forgot about the flood plain. One of the workers should have gone there earlier rather than both working the furs forest.

On a different issue, persia is about to settle N/NE of Paris (unless that settler is on a long trek). Could we launch an early strike there before reinforcements arrive? We might catch the town with only one spear! If we demolish the town, they may use their production on another settler rather than military units.

There's a Sword due in Paris next turn. Now, I'd suggested covering the Irrigating Worker with it, but as the Persians are in the same area too.... Two Slaves. Would be very nice. And at this stage of the game, a hit Persia may talk peace for.

I think they will settle before we can catch them but we could try. Maybe another civ will get to their site first-we can but hope. I had a chance when they landed next to our archer but I didn't fancy the odds as they were on a hill. The last point is still valid though.

IHT - 1725 BC

Looks like the rest of the team is in favor of keeping science where it is, so I'll do that. Not much else to change.

1 - 1700 BC

Paris sword->archer. Change Lyons to sword - I'm really nervous about leaving Lyons with just one warrior with the Greeks out there somewhere. That's how we lost Orleans.

Xerxes will talk now, but he also wants Lyons for peace. This is why I wanted allies - since we're in two wars, I think that makes peace more expensive. Send the sword off settler hunting to see if that will make X-man more reasonable.

2 - 1675 BC

Isabella boots Zinedine, but he's on the right side of her territory now. The volcano SE of Wonsan erupts. Persia settles Antioch 3 spaces NE of Paris.

I think long and hard about whether it's worth attacking Antioch, but we're not going to get out of these wars anytime soon unless we take the offensive, and with a vet sword vs. a reg spear, our odds are pretty decent. So I do it...and, of course, red-line the spear, but lose. :wallbash: Sorry, everybody, but I figured it was worth a try.

4 - 1625 BC

Lyons sword->tentatively set to granary. We'll have plenty of time to change it if we decide something else is better.

5 - 1600 BC

Paris archer->archer.

Persia just moved a warrior (from Antioch) and an archer (from Persepolis) toward our borders, so I have to retreat the worker (who just finished irrigating the flood plain) so he doesn't get killed.

6 - 1575 BC

Somehow Eric the Valiant manages to cross Ottoman territory without getting booted. So both our warriors will be home soon, which will help a little bit.

8 - 1525 BC

The Persian warrior and archer have joined up, and head into our territory.

9 - 1500 BC

Paris archer->archer. Have to attack the Persian troops now, even though they're on a hill, because they're threatening our worker. Our troops acquit themselves a little better this time and polish off the invaders with no losses. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to make Xerxes any more reasonable.


Stopping here to even out the turns. CoL is due in two turns; maybe we can use that to buy our way out of this war. In other tech news, the Ottos discovered Mathematics a few turns back, which has now spread amongst the other civs, and Persia just turned up with Map Making. I'm sure there will be some trades available when CoL comes in.

The granary in Lyons can be changed, but since our foes aren't putting up much of a fight, I recommend leaving it as is.

I believe that makes the roster:

eldar - up!
Ville - on deck
Veovim
Tone
Minute Man - just played

Sounds good overall, MinuteMan. Too bad about Antioch.

Now that we have the wheat at Lyons irrigated, I would consider changing the granary to a barracks. The granary would probably have the better pay off in the long term though, so I guess we should see if Xerxes comes up with anything more.

I checked in mapstat, and a couple civs still don't have writing (Ottomans don't have the wheel, either). I suggest we get whatever we can from it. I've checked, and Greece will take peace, so we won't have to give up CoL just for that. It might also be possible to get mysticism and math from Spain or the Ottomans after that (it definitely is before trading it to Greece). As for Scandinavia... they look kind of hopeless (I forgot to check MinuteMan's save - do the Ottomans still own Trondheim?).

I strongly suggest that we take the peace treaty with Greece-I really don't fancy taking on hoplites with archers! It will cost us Writing but we can take their cash. Only 8g but it will double our treasury and isolate Persia.
I'm not keen to set up alliances unless our backs are up against the wall and if we do 1 they won't be. If we sign an alliance we must continue fighting for another 20 turns (or ruin our rep) and I would like to use the cash to either fund research or upgrade our warriors.
We get CoL in 2 turns and then we have to make a difficult decision. Do we continue research and go for the Rep slingshot or do we switch off research and go for Persia, using the cash to upgrade our warriors? My vote is for research as Persia have offered little so far and I still believe that we stand a chance of getting Phil first
Do we trade CoL? If we don't, we may get a demand for it and have to face the consequeces and this is more likely if we are still at war with Persia. If we do trade it though we are less likely (IMO) to get Phil first. Views?
What to do in Lyons? I don't fancy another barracks yet but would not be too upset if that was the group decision! The granary is quite a way off yet and the population will be quite high when we get it but when we get it we can pump out a settler every six turns. We just need to clear a space to use the settler. How about switching the build to a settler (which we get in 2 turns with the forest chop) and using the new town to produce additional military units? Then get Lyons to build a granary. If you don't like that, then I vote to keep the granary build!
An observation: Lyons is under cultural pressure fron the Korean capital and although the flip probability is small MapStat says that we need three units to avoid the flip completely. I really hope the RNG gods are with us on that one as a flip would be disasterous! I also hope that the town in the east does not expand its borders as that really would put the squeeze on us. I think that Korea should be an early target (if they weren't already :) ).


What would I do? Take peace with Greece, build a settler and sent it to the tile 1SE of the game SW of Paris. Build and send out a small military force to KO Antioch (or capture it if it grows) and if we are still going strong then go for Persepolis and then take peace with Persia. In the meantime research at full pace for Phil and sell CoL to any powerful civs that are nearby (Ottomans) if we can get a good price for it or be prepared to cave into demands to avoid a dogpile. Once we have dealt with Persia, we should turn our attention to Korea. Views?

edit: I forgot to look at what we could get from Ottomans et al for Writing! I agree on looking to trade this now.

Peace with the Greeks sounds like a good idea. I never even saw a Greek unit, so I figured their price for peace would be high, but I wasn't checking.

On alliances: I wouldn't go for one now. We don't even have any embassies, or the cash to establish them. The time to do it would have been when Persia declared. Now that we can get peace with the Greeks and are close to having enough military to do some damage to Persia, it's not worth it.

Not sure about the Repiblic gambit. Writing has been around for a while now, and our research speed is not too impressive. On the other hand, it's certainly not the end of the world if we try and fail.

For most of my turns, Mysticism was all that would potentially be available for trading Writing, which didn't seem worth it. Now that Math is out there (and hopefully not too expensive), it's probably time to attempt a trade. I also wouldn't hesitate to trade CoL around - don't really see how that makes us less likely to get Phil first.

I wouldn't build a settler out of Lyons right now - then it'll be size one and not producing much of anything (which will also hurt research), and will take ten turns to even get back to where it is now. So I think we should, at a minimum, let it grow a bit before we build a settler. I still like the granary, but a barracks (followed by a couple of archers) wouldn't be the worst idea in the world either.

Korea should definitely be our first target, once we get out of our current wars and are ready to go on the offensive.

I also wouldn't hesitate to trade CoL around - don't really see how that makes us less likely to get Phil first. It seems to me, but I have no hard evidence to support it, that the AI often researches things that have been discovered already because these techs become cheaper to research when they are known by other civs. Also if we give them CoL there are less other options to research making it more likely that they go for Phil.

I wouldn't build a settler out of Lyons right now - then it'll be size one and not producing much of anything (which will also hurt research), and will take ten turns to even get back to where it is now.
Actually it will be back to size tow after two turns. It is growing at a rate of 1 citizen every 5 turns due to the irrigated wheat. If we go for a granary w/o dropping the population we will be dealing with specialists or using the lux slider to avoid riots before the granary is built, neither of which will be good for research unless we employ a scientist. Also the tiles will not be fully utilised because the citizens will be working tiles that are only roaded or totally unimproved. The reason why I suggested the settler is that we would be using the two improved tiles within two turns and the additional furs 5 turns later, giving our workers a chance to improve another tile before citizen 4 comes along. Meanwhile the new town will utalise some of the roaded tiles that Pris is not using yet as Paris *is* growing only every ten turns

However if you still think the settler is a bad idea that's fine but please don't reject it for this reason :)

Paris is productive enough to crank out units, so an initial Settler, followed by a Rax, in Lyons is probably best. I'll think of somewhere to send it! How may Archers to raze and replace Seoul? Probably 4 or 5, tops, as long as it's not on a hill.

Actually it will be back to size tow after two turns. It is growing at a rate of 1 citizen every 5 turns due to the irrigated wheat. If we go for a granary w/o dropping the population we will be dealing with specialists or using the lux slider to avoid riots before the granary is built, neither of which will be good for research unless we employ a scientist. Also the tiles will not be fully utilised because the citizens will be working tiles that are only roaded or totally unimproved. The reason why I suggested the settler is that we would be using the two improved tiles within two turns and the additional furs 5 turns later, giving our workers a chance to improve another tile before citizen 4 comes along. Meanwhile the new town will utalise some of the roaded tiles that Pris is not using yet as Paris *is* growing only every ten turns

Well, I don't have the save in front of me, so I didn't remember when Lyons is due to grow. But we have a lake space as well, and the forest should be chopped and improved by the time we need it, so we can have at least 5 citizens usefully employed (and still content, with two MP's). I agree that waiting for a granary might be a bit too long, though.

I think we need to decide on a strategic direction - are we going to try to make peace and expand a bit, or are we going to build up military and try to take some territory (Persepolis or Seoul) as soon as we can? If the first, a settler is probably best; if the second, we should probably build a barracks first.

I have the save in front of me :) The 1225BC save (yeah, I got greedy and played an extra turn - for perfectly acceptable reasons). Times are a lot, lot, better than they were 11 turns ago, believe me.

1. We're the tech leaders. Mais naturellement, mes amis.
2. We have another city!
3. We have more than a passing resemlance to a military.

Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_T071_1225BC.SAV)

Here are the turns:

0 1500 First up, Alex. Writing gets us peace+9g. He goes back to Cautious. Now, to Osman. He'll give us Mysticism for The Wheel. A much better trade IMHO. Ship Writing to Izzy for Maths+11g. Izzy also has monopoly on HBR; it's the only tech out there we don't know. Accidentally go for the end-of-turn; I wanted to tempt the X-man with Maths for Peace.

IT: nothing happens.

1 1475 X-man still wants Lyons, so no dice. Fire up MapStat….X-man has Map Making. Utterly pointless tech on this map! Decide to go for a Settler from Lyons. Units healing. Eric keeps tracking the Persian Warrior in our territory, hiding in a swap behind a river. Hopefully an unfair fight - esp as Eric's a Vet. How I'd love an early MGL - Lyons would get some culture. Sci can come down a bit. CoL at the end of this turn.

IT: Go to the X-man. He'll give us peace and gold for CoL - so I'll wait see what he does with his go. He may drag up more cash, you never know.

2 1450 He can't drag up more cash, but I kill his marauding warrior with a Sword (no promotion :( ) before going back to him. We are at peace with the world again. Crisis averted, though our growth was stunted. With the pressure off, Paris goes back to a Sword.

IT: Lyons Settler->Rax.

3 1425 Move the Settler to the other side of Lac de Lyons. It'll grab the Horses. Given we won't be using them, having two sources will allow us to trade them. For lots of good stuff. Research is Phil @ Max.

IT: Carthage are building SoZ - good, it's a long way off. (In terms of this game, at least - Rheims backs on to their borders!)

4 1400 Rheims founded at the far end of Lac Lyons. Phil is now coming in in 7 turns at -1 gpt.

IT: Paris Sword->Sword.

5 1375 Yawn. Same the next 4 turns.

9 1275 Action! Buy a Worker (1) from Osman for Writing. Then buy a second for CoL. I'm very optimistic about getting Philosophy.

IT: None of the AIs get Philosophy, so it's ours! Now I'd really like Polytheism to come in for some AI or other, because right now, Republic is going to do nothing for us - we're too small, and won't be big enough for a while. Monarchy makes much more sense.

10 1250 I decide to take 1 more turn (see, I told you I had good reason to go one more mile!) to see what happens with Philo. Fingers crossed for a Poly trade.

IT: Philo comes in, the only trade I do is Spain, CoL for HBR+2g. No Poly. Take Republic. I'm not keen on revolting just yet, so won't. Paris Sword->Sword. Peel off a Worker/Settler before it hits size 6, we'll need to use Lux otherwise.

11 1225 We are strong vs. Korea. No need to ask what those Swords+Archers are doing on that mountain. Bring the Reg along for the ride and I'm sure we have enough to take Seoul. Let's get this Roller Coasting!

Finally something pictorial:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_1225BC.jpg

Neil. :cool:

Variant Rules:
We may never build ground units with a move rate above 1. This means no upgrades allowed to Mech Inf (if the game gets that far) or Radar Artillery (again...), of course.
No Armies, no SoZ! If we capture the SoZ it must be razed if it is still active.

Roster check:
eldar -> just played
Ville -> UP
Veovim -> on deck
Tone
Minute Man

:goodjob:

@Minute Man: I think eldar answered your question about game direction! I still think we'll need to have a settler factory of some sort as many of these cities will be destroyed as the AI will start pop-rushing, reducing their size to 1 and I don't see much culture apart from palaces. We will then want to fill in the gaps with our own settlers rather than let another civ into the ground we have cleared.

@eldar:
1. When will the time be right for revolution?
2. Research policy?
3. Are SGLs on?

1. Revolution when we get Monarchy, I think. Despo is fine for now.

2. Not sure about research. AIs will be on Poly; hold Philo & CoL for that? Try to get Monarchy with Republic? Research Monarchy ourselves? Very open. There are no accumulated beakers right now. Our choices are: (a) Currency - a good one to trade with. (b) Literature - the AIs love to demand this, and just how much use will we get from Libraries? (c) Construction - the AIs always go for this above Currency, so no point (d) Polytheism, which a couple of AIs will already be close to.

3. SGLs are on, afaik.

and..

4. Gift Korea Republic before we go to war. Like, the turn we declare. He'll be in Anarchy when we attack, and won't be able to pop-rush.

Aren't we then giving away our most valuable tech? If Korea has any embassies we will certainly face alliances.

Why wait until Monarchy for a revolution? I fully understand not wanting to fight a war in anarchy but once we have got what we want from Korea why wait any longer? Admittedly despotism gives MPs and greater unit support but we'll have far more cash under Republic and won't suffer the despot penalty so we can use the lux slider and probably still be better off. (Have you used CivAssist to check it out?) We won't need to worry about WW in future battles as it takes a while to kick in under Republic so although there will be turns when we have units in enemy territory which help WW accumulate, I can't see us fighting any long wars and if we can get the AI to declare first or we go for our old enemies, we'll get war fever for a while.

I agree that Monarchy may be the better long term bet but can we afford not to use our free tech in the meantime (and if we can why did we go for it in the first place?)

I agree, we haven't got any Embassies. But then, the AIs haven't had the cash for them themselves, either - most of them have only just got Writing, and I ensured they were out of cash in giving it them.

I don't want Korea pop-rushing their towns down to size 1: I'd much rather capture intact and save the 30 shields (and 2 pop!) for a Swordsman, than have to get a Settler ready and beat the other AIs in a race to the spot.

I'd much rather capture intact and save the 30 shields (and 2 pop!) for a Swordsman, than have to get a Settler ready and beat the other AIs in a race to the spot.
This brings up an important question: which towns do we want to capture, and which do we want to abandon? Getting Seoul already with a couple improvements could be nice. We might need to be careful about Seoul flipping unless we prolong the war long enough to capture it, Wonsan, and their city to the east, though. If they have any other cities, or a settler running around, finishing them could be difficult. I guess that a good solution might be to capture it, then decide what to do once we know the risk (keep it, build a settler and abandon it, or just abandon it outright).

Wonsan I don't like so much. It has some strong tiles, but it is a major space hog and I think that we could probably do better by razing it (or by building a settler to abandon it), and refounding two cities in that area.

The AIs will build spare Settlers. How many times have you captured a Settler in a city? With the map this crowded, they'll be there. Flips, I'm not worried about. If we get a Barracks in Seoul, we'll be lucky.

I really don't understand why you're so determined to be in Monarchy, eldar. In the long run, Republic is much, much better, as the commerce bonus makes up for the unit support and WW. And we do have several luxuries within reach, which will make up for the lack of MP's. The only way Monarchy would be better is if we were doing some really heavy warmongering and stayed at war for very long periods of time. Just look back at TR01 and TR02 - we conquered the whole world in Republic both times, without any problems.

Admittedly, Monarchy would be a little better at this exact point in time, but not nearly enough to be worth (a) researching it and (b) a second revolution. I think we should probably go ahead and revolt to Republic after the Korean war.

@MM, etc.

That sounds like a better plan to me. Sorry for eulogising... right now our unit support in Republic would be 3, and we have 7 or 8 citizens - an extra 7-8 gold in Republic, not enough to cover costs (Lux+units). Bring in the 3 Korean cities, and it changes.

But, yep, revolt after Korea.

That was 2nd most boring turns I have ever had...
-------
1200 BC
Greece got Polytheism
Not buying it, let’s wait until more civs have it.

1175 BC
Nothing

IBT
Paris: Sword->Sword
Lyons: Rax->Sword

1150 BC
Nada

1125 BC
Nada

1100 BC
Carthage gets MM aswell. Could buy with Philosophy but I don’t see why we would waste monopoly when we have no coastal city…

1075 BC
I want those 2 swords to the stack and then attack :)

1050 BC
Not much to report

IBT
Paris: Sword->Sword

1025 BC
Trade with Greece: HBR for Poly
Trade with Greece: Poly for MM
Lower science to stay above 0 gold

IBT
Lyons: Sword->Sword

1000 BC
Lowered again to not go bankrupt…
Hire scientist in Paris so it won’t riot.

I left sword unmoved, it can grab Korean worker if you decide to attack. I’d say attack! :p

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_T080_1000BC.SAV)

I've got it, and I'll play tomorrow night.

IT - We've got a nice force assembled near Seoul. :hammer: I declare and move in.

975 BC (Turn 1) - Paris sword > sword

Battle for Seoul:
Vet sword does 1 damage to reg spear, then dies.
Vet sword kills reg spear, takes 2 damage.
Vet sword kills 2hp reg spear, takes 3 damage.
Seoul is ours! It has 2 resisters of 4 citizens.
I put it on a catapult for the time being.

950 BC (Turn 2) - Nothing exciting happens.
I scout a bit. Seoul has incense, but needs 2 border expansions to grab it.

925 BC (Turn 3) - Still nothing interesting.
I'm just moving troops towards Wonsan.

900 BC (Turn 4) - Paris sword > settler (I'm not confident of getting any more Korean towns intact until the peace deal)
Lyons sword > sword

875 BC (Turn 5) - The Koreans will talk, and offer Pusan. It doesn't have much going for it, so I say no.
Korea and the Ottomans have construction, I'll look for a deal on it.
Rheims worker > barracks

850 BC (Turn 6) - The settler is due next turn, so I move in the swords to raze Wonsan.

825 BC (Turn 7) - Paris settler > sword

Battle for Wonsan:
Vet sword kills reg spear, takes 3 damage.
Vet sword dies to reg spear, did 3 damage, but the spear promotes.
Vet sword kills 2hp vet spear, takes 3 damage.
Wonsan is razed, we get 2 slaves from a settler that was parked there.

The Koreans are down to Pusan and P'yongyang (claiming spices way in the east).
We can now get Pusan and construction for peace, and I decide to go for it.
We do have a couple of troops by P'yongyang, but the Koreans have a settler running away NW. I suggest we keep a couple swords around to blockade it if it comes back.
Currency is due next turn, then I'll revolt.

800 BC (Turn 8) - We get 5 turns of anarchy.

775 BC (Turn 9) - Tours is founded.
As predicted, the Korean settler is back, and an Ottoman settler joins him. The blockade is in place. I switch Seoul to a settler.

750 BC (Turn 10) - Nothing important happens.

Now for some screen shots. The zoomed out version didn't look so good, so here's our empire in two halves.

The west, including Tours and Pusan:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-750BC-West.jpg

The east, plus a shot of a potential next target, Antioch:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-750BC-East.jpg

Finally, here are some notes for the next turns:
Once we're out of anarchy, I'd let the settler finish at Seoul, and fill in the gap we have. Once you irrigate the game tile, it'll grow quickly.
Since the Korean settler has come back, it might be worth it to tell him to get lost and see if they declare. I kind of doubt it, but we could wipe them out totally if they do. There are two swords in Rheims and an archer in Lyons that could attack P'yongyang if this is a possibility. You'll need to hit them fast, as I saw a spear from P'yongyang go exploring, and we don't want it to come back.
The blockade was put up in a hurry, so it can definitely be run better.
If we choose to attack Persia soon, we're going to need to use defensive terrain carefully - they got iron from somewhere.

If anyone responds within the next 3 1/2 hours, I should be able to answer questions. After that, I'll be gone until Friday night.

Edit: It would sure help if I attached the save, wouldn't it?

Nice going :goodjob:

I've dowloaded the save but don't intend to play until you've had a chance to set our forthcoming strategy, now that Korea is all but a spent force.

1. We have two more turns of anarchy and then we will be in Republic. Once this happens, Paris will grow in two turns and Lyons will grow in one both reaching size 6, which means that we then then have to cope with three unhappy people in each city. Additionally our current unit count is 18 and we have 6 towns in total so this means -12gpt unit costs that grow when our current builds are completed. Also we have to use the lux slider a bit (guess 20% but it could be 30%) as we only have one lux connected and this will not leave much cash left, unless we use specialists but I think that they are a waste of population in the early game if you have an alternative use for the population. I therefore suggest that these two towns should build settlers rather than swords. The blocade will sprout holes if those settlers split and I rather use the swords we have to attack rather than block! We can claim the spot that everyone wants (NE of silks, yes?) and also claim the incense by settling 3E of Seoul. With the additional unit support and an additional lux (plus silks to make it three when our workers get there) our situation will be much healthier. NB Paris and Lyon will only drop to size 4 and so will still be productive.

2. What are our research plans? Presumably Fued is our next tech for this type of game but min research to fund additional units or max allowed research and nurse our economy as the unit count grows?

3. Next target? Persia is close but, as Veovim says, they now have iron but the other side of the coin is that they only have four cities in total so will probably not have stacks of their UU and their towns will be productive as they are still in our core. They get my vote, once I've finished playing stupid games with foreign settlers. If we go for someone else though, we could trade with them. We could give them horses (that they probably won't use as the AI tends to prioritise UUs) and we get wines, that helps our lux slider situation.

I'll look to play this evening when I've had some feedback (hopefully)

Research-wise, we're better off going at max possible. Minimum research appears to be "out" at the moment... I also think that it's going to be better just to build new units, rather than waste cash upgrading. Also, Feudalism is one of the toughest techs to trade for. It's going to be a lot cheaper and quicker for us to research it ASAP. It goes without saying, it's the first one we'll want. Then Eng->Inv->Guns, of course.

I like the idea of building settlers, for all the reasons you mentioned. We definitely want to research Feud as fast as we can. After we get it, though, I do think we should turn down research for a few turns and then upgrade our swords - the sword->MDI upgrade is awfully cheap.

Keep in mind that once muskets start appearing, attacking with MDI is going to be a lot less rewarding, and we can't just build cavalry to restore our offensive advantage. So I think we should make the most of our window of opportunity before Gunpowder is discovered.

Persia looks like the best next target. Immortals are less scary in the middle ages - they're just cheap MDI at that point. And the Persian cities will definitely be the most productive.

I've played the way I said I would and have got to turn 6. What I would like to do is not perhaps to everybodies liking so I thought that I would post my ideas and wait. In particular you are following me, Eldar and will have to face the consequences!

Persia has entered the MA and got Fuedalism as their free tech last turn. We are still 21 turns from getting there. The shot below hopefully shows a Persian settler/archer pair hopefully about to head south again and a worker pair on our border. We no longer care if those settlers pass our blocade as our settler from Paris will claim the spot in two turns.

I would like to declare war on Persia next turn and will have two swords to attack the archer and two more to venture into persia and claim the slaves to be. (unless they move at the end of this turn!)

Question is do you fancy a war with Persia when they have Fuedalism? My view is that if we can hit them quickly they won't have many pikes to worry about but do you agree? They still only have four towns and we could take one almost straight away if we send the swords from Rhiems in with the two that steal the workers. What d'ya think?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84478&stc=1

Go for it. We can take Antioch easily enough. All we have to worry about it their GA - and work out where their Iron is coming from, and cut it off (can we get Embassies and work out who they're trading with?).

Go for it. That was all the encouragement I needed :D

Sorry no embassies-we are not rich enough IMHO.


turn 0 (750)
press enter

turn 1 (730)
block foriegners and switch builds in Paris and Lyons to settlers as discussed earlier.

turn 2 (710)
more blocking! we now have Ottoman, Korean, Carthagian and Persian settlers to contend with.

turn 3 (690)
We are now a Republic. 10% on the lux slider is enough but our research capacity is pitiful with so many units. Fued @ 40% takes 30 turns. As we have settlers from our main towns I switch production in the others to barracks.

IBT
Lyons:settler>sword

turn 4 (670)
Settler heads for Incense, swords continue to dance with our friends.

IBT
Paris:settler>sword. Persia has Fued! :(

turn 5 (650)
settler from Paris heads for tile NE of silks but will need two more turns to get there. Other settler lands NE of incense and will settle next turn as Carthagianian town is too close. Just out of curiosity I see if Persia will swap Republic for Fued but no chance! :)

turn 6 (630)
Build Marseilles (rax). Reduce lux to zero and up research to 50%.

..and having paused for consultation I place armies ready to pounce!

IBT
The Persians move where I want them (and we are officially the happiest nation on the globe!). Spain has entered the MA.

turn 7 (610)
I give Persia a way out by demanding Fued but they decline so we declare war. We steal the workers and pounce on Antioch with four swords and an archer. Attack archer protecting settler on mountain; it's a close thing but the sword survives and is victorious. The slaves move onto the silks and the reserve sword heads for the main front.

turn 8 (590)
Antioch is defended only by spear(s) and is still size 4. First sword loses one hp and the second is redlined but we suffer no loses and we now hold Antioch (rax). Persian wines are over the hill to the north so a spare sword takes a look: Arbella is a size 1 town with no culture so no point rushing to capture. Still no sign of Persian iron. Chartres is built in the south (rax). Up research to 60% which gives us a slight profit but we will have more units and barracks over the next few turns so I don't think that it will last.

IBT
A persian archer is dropped off ouside Antioch's borders from a galley.
Seoul:rax>sword

turn 9 (570)
all quiet (except my mouse no longer works in the game-save and reload! :mad: )

IBT
The persian archer doesn't attack. It loads on the galley, the galley enters and leaves Arbella and then (presumably) another archer is deposited where the last one was! :confused:
Paris:sword>sword; Lyons:sword>sword. Our troops quell 2 of the 3 resistors in Antioch and is goes into disorder. Carthage has built the Statue of Zeus! :eek:

turn 10 (550)
Swords head for Persia. Arbella is now defended by a pike. Switch both cits in Arbella to specialists as it will only riot next turn if we quell the other resistor. So what if they starve (but feel free to change!)

Notes:
Please change any builds you want to. Paris and Lyons will grow to size 6 soon-you can have the silks connected after the forest chop as Paris grows but Lyons will grow the turn before this so be prepared to either employ specialists or revert to the lux slider. Maybe we should get a settler from Lyons and raze Arbella if it doesn't grow before we get there?

Paris is currently +6 food per turn-you can mm this next turn and still get growth in 3 turns. Alternatively if you fancy a slow growing sword factory switch one of the fp citizens to the iron and get a sword every three turns!

Have fun!

save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84504&stc=1)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84505&stc=1

Whoops, didn't realize I was up. Got it. Probably won't have time to finish it until tomorrow night, though.

Keep pounding on Persia, eh? I think I can handle that.

It would have helped if I'd posted the order at the end of my save. Sorry.

Pre-flight: Well, this certainly looks better than the empire we had last time I played. Our military is poised to do some serious damage to Persia. I'd definitely like to take Persepolis before it's all said and done.

Paris is a little frustrating - I can't quite MM it to a good number of shields no matter what I do. Decide to leave it as is. I might change Lyons to a settler, depending on how the battle for Arbela goes.

1 - 530 BC
Xerxes does the archer shuffle by Arbela again. I find this silly and whack him with a sword. He was in the way, anyway. ;)

Boy, have I gotten addicted to fast units. It's so annoying not being able to attack Arbela this turn...

2 - 510 BC
X-man uses his galley to drop a spear (from Arbela) off just behind my invading force. Ooh, I'm shaking.

Battle of Arbela commences. It turns out that one pike is all the defense; I lose one sword but destroy the city. Bet Xerxes wishes he'd left that spear in the city. :) Will probably need to put up a blockade for a few turns, or one of those wandering settler pairs might steal our hard-earned wines.

Persia will talk now, and he's down to two cities. But he won't even give up Feudalism for peace, so forget it.

Lyons is unhappy, but the silks will be online next turn, so I hire a scientist for one turn.

3 - 490 BC :sleep:

4 - 470 BC
In the process of dancing with Carthage's settler, I uncover green borders a little bit to the NE of where Arbela was. So now we finally know where the Greeks are. It amazes me that we still haven't explored at all to our east. Will have to work on that when the Persian war is over.

Persia sends a random pike into our territory; I pretty much have to take a potshot at him with an available sword while he's on the low ground, or he'll pillage to his heart's content. Fortunately we win.

5 - 450 BC
Lyons produces a settler. Just have to hold the Carthaginians off for a couple more turns.

Our unit support is up to 26 gpt. We've got to get some bigger cities. At least we're putting our military to pretty good use.

6 - 430 BC :sleep:

7 - 410 BC :sleep:

8 - 390 BC
Xerxes wants to talk. Yeah, right. See the first immortal, just north of our iron (where we've still got a sword parked.

Greece completes the Oracle.

Avignon founded on the ruins of Arbela, which gives us wines just in time to prevent Paris from rioting at size seven.

Begin the march on Persepolis.

9 - 370 BC
The immortal kills the vereran sword on our iron without a scratch. :( But our SoD is only a turn away from Persepolis, so we'll see who has the last laugh.

Spain build the Mausoleum of Marsellos.

10 - 350 BC
That darn immortal kills another sword on the iron, again without a scratch. :mad: On a mountain, this should be an even fight, but he's won 8 rounds in a row. Gotta love the RNG... Another immortal sorties out of Persepolis and kills a sword in our SoD.

Feudalism comes in. Set research to Engineering for now; we should discuss this.

Battle of Persepolis begins. I hope I brought enough forces...
Sword kills pike without a scratch.
Sword redlines pike but dies. Healthy pike revealed.
Sword redlines pike but dies again. Maybe I should have waited for MDI...
Sword kills (weakened) pike.
Sword redlines immortal but dies. I'm sensing a theme here....
Archer kills immortal. That leaves a redlined pike as the top defender, but we're out of attackers. :gripe: So close...

Here's the current state of our empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-350BC.jpg

Notes:

Sorry about leaving the Persepolis situation in a bit of a mess. I'd have played another turn just to clean things up, but I'm honestly not sure whether to press the attack or not. So I'll wimp out and leave the decision to the next player.

Once the Persepolis situation is resolved, I'd recommend making peace with Persia and building some infrastructure. We really need some markets, and maybe some libraries if we're planning on doing more research. We have several cities that are now reaching the point of being productive.

I still like the idea of turning down research for a bit, piling up some cash, and upgrading to MDI's (and if you don't think we need MDI's, go review my battle notes again). Though admittedly it's not quite as urgent now that I got half of our swords killed... :rolleyes:

Roster check:
eldar - up!
Ville - on deck
Veovim
Tone
Minute Man - just played

Well done mm; swords against pikes is not an easy battle and we really needed those wines.

I've just taken a quick look at the save. Is it worth attacking the persian sword? We have a 50-50 chance of success which is slightly less than when we are defending but we get three bites of the cherry to kill him. We can't afford to lose production on the iron tile at the moment.

Research is a difficult decision. The faster we research, the faster our enemies progress as well but then again only Persia and Spain appear to be in the MA at the moment so maybe we should carry on full speed ahead-we haven't got that much to upgrade. I'm not really sure on this.

The attack on Persepolis is also going to be a difficult choice. I would expect the pike to heal completely and there may be reinforcements built/marched in as well. If there is a fresh pike in there, maybe the wise move is to wait for the two MDIs and withdraw but I must admit that I would probably attack with the 4/4 sword and if the signs are encouraging continue with the 3/4 archer and 2/4 sword but otherwise withdraw and regroup. It's a bit risky but we have much to gain and relatively little to lose.

I was hoping that the iron was going to be NE of Persepolis but no such luck! Are we looking to wipe them out or just take this town and move onto greener pastures? Carthage's ivory is very tempting but their ACs are quite scary. Maybe they would be a good target after we get muskets. How about Spain with their dyes? The iron source would be easy to cut (unless they have a second source somewhere!)

It looks like an interesting turn set ahead, Eldar!

1. The Force at Persepolis will likely be killed in the inter-turn.
2. We should be researching Feudalism ourselves. It's clearly the key tech in this game. [Edit - oops, we have it!].

I've looked at the save and am doing some trading first. I've just got Korea to sell us Engineering, his free tech, for Republic, by selling him Currency first.

Greece I wasn't so lucky with. He got Engineering or Feudalism as his tech. (Note there's no loss there... he can't get better defenders with Feudalism!) I leave Osman alone; we don't need Monotheism.

1. The force at Persepolis will likely be killed in the inter-turn.It might but I doubt it. Persia really isn't that strong. They have one redlined pike in Persepolis and one other town to produce units with. I'll stick my neck out and say that I can't see three attackers coming inter-turn!

2. We should be researching Feudalism ourselves. It's clearly the key tech in this game. We have it! That's why we are now building MDIs :) See turn 10 of MM's post.

We have it! That's why we are now building MDIs :) See turn 10 of MM's post.

I just edited my post after opening the save :blush:

Here we go!

First off, the good news:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_dead_persians.jpg

But just before that, this happened:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_colossus.jpg

That was nice of them. What was dumb of them was researching Monarchy just before dying, and promptly revolting. They were in Anarchy as I ran them over :lol: :crazyeye:

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-eldar-150BC.SAV)

Turn log:
0 350 Currency to Korea for 15g, they get Engineering, and trade me it for Republic. Try the same with Greece, who get Engineering as well. Start research on Invention.

IT: Pesky Immortal redlines our Sword, but doesn't manage the 3fer. A fresh Pike has been whipped up by the Persians in Persepolis.

1 330 Retreat from Persepolis - for now. Get a Galley out of Chartres - I want a better map.

IT: The Persians build The Colossus for us :D

2 310 Upgrade a couple of Swords, move MedInfs towards Persepolis. MM Paris for 14 shields, and 1 extra gold.

3 290 Move more troops.

4 270 More troop movement.

5 250 3 MedInfs and 3 Swords moved into Persia.

IT: Immortal redlines a Sword at Persepolis - and dies!

6 230 Persia have Monarchy. So they've revloted. In the middle of a war :lol:

Persepolis Rd 2:
Sword vs Vet Pike: Pike dead, Sword 2 hps.
Sword vs Vet Pike: Pike dead, Sword 1 hp.
MedInf vs. Reg Pike: Pike dead, MedInf 1 hp.
MedInf vs. Reg Pike: Pike dead, MedInf 3 hps.

Persepolis+5 slaves is ours. Plus Barracks :D

I find the Persian Iron, it's up by Pasargadae.

7 210 Troops healing in Persepolis.

8 190 WW is starting to hit. Lux up, Sci down. Pillage Persian Iron.

9 170 Troops move.

10 150

Battle of Pasargadae:
Sword vs Reg Pike: Pike dead, Sword 2 hps.
MedInf vs Reg Spear: Med Inf dead (figures…), Spear 2 hps.
MedInf vs Reg Spear: Spear dead, MedInf 3 hps.
MedInf vs 2hp Spear: Spear dead. Pasargadae falls, Colossus is ours, Persia no more.

Next: finish off Korea to nab the Spices.

Neil. :cool:

This is looking really good now. The crowded map has made it an interesting game (especially with the lack of mobile units as a handicap).

I'm now wondering what this would be like at a more difficult level :)

The RNG was with me on this one - 8 battles, only 1 loss. Could've been very different.

Got it! XCL

Cool. I think we want to look West after Korea - Ottos in particular, before they get to the Middle Ages.

IBT
Paris: MDI->MDI

130 BC
Moving troops towards P’yongyang

IBT
Seoul: MDI->MDI
Lyons: MDI->MDI

110 BC
Move troops

90 BC
Attack!
MDI (4/4) attacks Korean spear-settler, -1hp, get 2 slaves
Other MDIs move to Korea

IBT
Korean archer kills the MDI
Carthaginian troops move to our territory…
Persepolis: Worker->Worker

70 BC
P’yongyang is ours, didn’t lose a single MDI :)
Aww…was that your last city? :p
Rush pikeman in Marseilles

IBT
Yep…
Our MDI wins Cart AC, is redlined
Invention->Gunpowder (14)
Marseilles: Pike->MDI
Chartres: Pike->MDI

50 BC
Carthage has 2 AC and Warrior next to P’yongyang, move some troops there
MDI vs AC, -1hp, kill
MDI vs AC, -2hp, AC retreats
MDI vs Warrior, -1hp, kill

IBT
Cart land Numec near Seoul
We lost 4 slaves and Eric the Valiant
Avignon: Rax->MDI
Lyons: MDI->MDI
Antioch: Pike->Pike

30 BC
MDI vs AC, -2hp, retreat
MDI vs Numec on hill, flawless kill :eek:
Sword vs AC, redlines, promotion, 2hp left
Another sword finishes AC
Recapture slaves, and they thought they were free :nya:

IBT
Carthaginians have killer warriors!!! Lost 2 MDIs…
Paris: MDI->MDI

10 BC
MDI vs war, -1hp, kill
Sword vs war, kill

IBT
Seoul: MDI->MDI

10 AD
Pike pillages Ivory, they have one near Leptis Magna and another one under Utica, which shall go down!
Pillage Iron

IBT
Pike –2hp vs AC

30 AD
Gather troops

IBT
MDI redlined vs AC
Paris: MDI->MDI
Persepolis: Worker->Worker
Tours: MDI->MDI
Lyons: MDI->MDI
Carthage finished Great Lighthouse, thank you!

50 AD
MDI vs Numec, -1hp, kill, promotion
MDI vs Numec, killed
MDI vs Numec, kill
Sword vs Archer, kill
Utica is ours!

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_T130_50AD.SAV)

Veovim? :bump:

Variant Rules:
We may never build ground units with a move rate above 1. This means no upgrades allowed to Mech Inf (if the game gets that far) or Radar Artillery (again...), of course.
No Armies, no SoZ!

The exception: Leaders. Of course, we have no means of preventing these from occuring, other than not attacking with Elites. SGLs are on too, I think. If we get a Leader of either type:
- Must move to the nearest city (MGLs can wait until a city's captured, if that's how they were generated) and rush an improvement/Small Wonder immediately.
- No Great Wonder-rushing with SGLs.

Standard SG rules/etiquette apply.

Roster:
eldar
Ville <- just played
Veovim <- UP
Tone <- on deck (warm standby as Veovim's MIA...)
Minute Man

I'm back, and I've got it.

IT - The world is a much pinker place than when I last saw it. :goodjob:
Carthagian archer kills the pike sitting on their ivory. The MDI still stands.

70 AD (Turn 1) - Battle for Leptis Magna
Vet MDI redlines reg NuMerc, but dies
Vet MDI kills reg NuMerc, goes red
That NuMerc I redlined earlier kills an MDI flawlessly and promotes
Vet MDI kills 2hp vet NuMerc
Vet archer kills 2hp archer
Leptis Magna is ours, and we get 3 slaves

90 AD (Turn 2) - Carthagian AC comes out of nowhere and retakes Leptis Magna. I guess I should have moved the MDI off of the Ivory and into the city.
I retake Leptis Magna, and pillage the neutral road so we won't get any more nasty surprises.

110 AD (Turn 3) - I've gathered some troops and am marching on Theveste.
Ottomans and Spain come up with Monotheism. The best deal we'll get is Engineering + 32 gold from the Ottomans. We're not going to get much value out of Engineering otherwise, so I decide to make it.

130 AD (Turn 4) - Nothing much happens

150 AD (Turn 5) - Kill off a NuMerc that landed near Tours

170 AD (Turn 6) - Battle for Theveste
Bombard a reg NuMerc for 1 hp
Vet MDI dies to reg NuMerc, no damage done
Vet MDI kills reg NuMerc, takes 1 damage
Vet MDI kills 2hp reg NuMerc, takes no damage
Theveste is ours

190 AD (Turn 7) - I'm gathering troops to march on Carthage.

210 AD (Turn 8) - Gunpowder comes in, I set research to chemistry on max sustainable.

230 AD (Turn 9) - Our troops are now advancing on Carthage.
Hannibal makes a good joke.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-joke.jpg

250 AD (Turn 10) - Nothing too interesting happens.

Here's a view of our new Carthagian towns, plus our salt.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03-Veovim-250AD.jpg

We can capture Carthage in 2 turns, and a decision needs to be made: what do we do about the Statue of Zeus? Razing Carthage will take the Great Lighthouse with it, and will take Sun Tzu if our luck is really rotten and they finish it next turn (there's a fair bit of irrigation, so I doubt that will happen). The alternative, of course, is just disbanding the AC for a few extra shields.

If we raze Carthage, we should switch one of our towns to a settler right away. Good candidates are: Paris (fastest possible completion), Seoul, P'yongyang, Tours (I'd do this, it'll regrow in a hurry), and Chartres.

I forgot to write down when, but I set Lyons to the forbidden palace somewhere along the line mainly because it can complete it the fastest. If you guys don't like it, we could switch Lyons to a market, and Seoul would be a decent candidate for the FP as well.

Also of note: We have just hit level 1 war weariness. Thanks to our many luxuries, this will only be a problem if Carthage has a settler on a boat, but I thought I would mention it anyways.

We must raze the SoZ. If it comes with free Sun Tzu - tough break. The Lighthouse is not going to be an issue on this map!

I'd have researched Chivalry, and made a run for KT during our soon-to-be GA - Paris would snag it easily, possibly in 10 turns or less. Find a Pike or a Spear to upgrade, and get it done - redline something, and make the kill.

We're only a two turns into chemistry, so if you want to swap to chivalry, it's not a huge loss. I was thinking of trying to get cannons before anyone else gets muskets, but KT would be pretty useful. Perhaps a better idea than my original plan would be to go for KT, while at the same time building a handful of muskets and parking them on every source of salt in the world (there are two in Ottoman territory, and one that is visible in Greek territory). I think that our extra strong defense could make that quite viable.

After Carthage, I'd go for Osman next. He'd have been my #1 target if Hannibal hadn't come knocking.

As for KT - Paris is currently Size 8 doing 15 shields per turn, working 7 tiles with a shield, plus the centre; that'd give it 23 shields in the GA. It should be able to make 30 per turn in the GA at size 12. Maybe get a pre-build going?

OTOH - do we really need it? I don't think the AIs will build it. Using those 300 shields for extra units is going to finish things quicker :D

I've got the save and had a quick look. We are looking strong so well done guys!

Apart froma little bit of mm that can be done these are my observations/intentions in no particular order.

1. Tours is making +5 food/turn and would benefit from an aquaduct. I think that it will be worth it in the long run. If you disagree perhaps the next best thing is to get a settler out to replace Carthage when we raze it.

2. We need workers to irrigate the plains around Utica. All our workers that I can see are on lengthy jobs mining hills, etc. Antioch is making 5sh/turn and has reached its pop limit. I intend to switch the build to a worker. We will not lose production in this town as it will grow the following turn and regain pop 6. This could be done every 10 turns. MDI in 8 and then a worker in 2 to coincide with the pop growth.

3. Research at the current rate is not sustainable if we want to upgrade some of these pikes. (Why are we building so many pikes anyway?) We should get some cash from Carthage and if we reduce research slightly we can build up a small upgrade fund. We need 90g per pike, right?

4. Further to my comment on pikes, I would also like to switch the build in Marseilles to an MDI. We need more offensive troops!

And then saving the *best* 'till last...

I disagree on our next target. Ottomans are strong but we need to make sure that we can get our reinforcements there quickly and we don't yet have the roads to help with this. Additionally our troops are slow and are over the other side of the island (it's too small to call it a continent, let alone the world :) ) and so will take a while to get there in the first place.

I would like to suggest that we use the troops that are already in the East to deal with Greece and meanwhile build up some troops in the West and get a road straight to the heart of the Ottoman empire. The Greeks will provide us with gems and I think that I'm correct in saying that we will get war-fever due to their previous attack on us. When we have dealt with the Greeks, we can move all our troops Westwards (apart from a couple of MDIs to cover galleys) as we will then have only one front line-much tidier. If we do that I will also switch the build in P'yongyang to a settler to claim the lands around Carthage.

If you disagree on this and still want to go for The Ottamans first we should still renegotiate peace with the Greeks as we will not be in a position to attack them in the subsequent 20 turns and their gems will be handy!

I shall wait (as usual) to see what the group decision is before playing.

3. Research at the current rate is not sustainable if we want to upgrade some of these pikes.
If you think that we can control the world's saltpeter like I mentioned earlier, I think that we can shut off research entirely (or go for Chivalry at a reduced pace). Now that I'm thinking about it, we could shut off research, trip our golden age, then use all of that money to rush stuff. We'd plow over the rest of the world easily.

(Why are we building so many pikes anyway?) ...
4. Further to my comment on pikes, I would also like to switch the build in Marseilles to an MDI. We need more offensive troops!
I believe that I was trying to get some defending MDIs off of defence by building less expensive pikes, but I've probably overdone it.

I like the research idea. :goodjob: Cannons would be nice but they are not essential given the slow rate that the AI can research. (They are still looking for invention.) I was not implying that we should do this when I made my comment but I like this idea a lot. I can even see the sense in building pikes now. :D This gets my vote.

I'm not keen on researching Chivalry though. This will reduce the time the AI needs to get it and that's not good news for us IMO. When the AI gets it, we can start/continue a prebuild for KT but I think that even then our MDI/muskets stacks will see them off. We just need as much time before they get knights to deal with the stronger civs.

I've waited but only one reply!

Eldar, this is your game and if you still want to go for the Ottamans next just post to overrule me otherwise I'll assume that you have been convinced by me that the Greeks should be the next target. :D

I should be able to play this evening.

Sorry, I semi-convinced myself that Greece was probably a better first strike, because that's where are troops are right now... so Greece it shall be.

I think that I've set myself up for a mighty fall. After all this gazing into the future and mid-term strategy making, now watch me as I lead our magnificent armies to a standstill and the next person is left still playing against Carthage! ;)

Sorry, didn't realize you were waiting for input. Attacking the Greeks is fine with me. We still owe Alex a good butt-kicking in return for attacking us earlier. And it would be sort of nice to finish things off in the east and only have one front to defend before we turn our attentions to the west.

About pikes...I think we do need some. First, they'll upgrade to our UU (though at a hefty price tag). Second, once the AI does get around to discovering Gunpowder, we're probably going to need some bombardment to soften up the defenders before sending in the MDI's, and it'd be a good idea to have some defenders to cover the stack.

I agree with not researching Chivalry. Really, what's the point? I don't think KT is worth it...one templar every five turns isn't going to amount to all that much. We are going to want cannons at some point, but that's about it.

We're not going to need Cannons - check the Dom tiles now, add Greece, Spain, and see what you get. This is winnable with current tech and units.

I agree we should attack Greece next. That would help our future attacks by leaving only one direction to attack so we wouldn't have to split troops.

turn 0 (250)
A little bit of mm to ensure growth in one turn in Paris and increase production in Chartres and Antioch-switch to settler as it is food rich and we need to fill the space that Carthage will leave. switch off research as suggested by Veovim.

turn 1 (260)
Stack moves adjacent to Carthage. I was also going to get Antioch to build a worker but now I'll wait until it produces a settler.

turn 2 (270)
Stack moves across river to improve attack odds next turn. Pike enters Greece just to get a better map.

IBT
Greeks ask us to leave but do not insist.
Paris:musket>musket; Chartres: settler>MDI

turn 3 (280)
Attack on Carthage: Treb does nothing, first vet MDI redlines reg merc but loses. Second does the same but there are now just two 1 hp defenders which are dispatched with no problem. We take 171g and raze Carthage. (I've never razed the SoZ before!) Take Pike out of Greece (don't want to ruin our rep), empty Carthagian towns out of the front line and prepare to take on Greece.

IBT
Foreign settlers appear at our borders!
Seoul:MDI>MDI; P'yong:pike>rax; Antioch:settler>MDI

turn 4 (290)
Forces assemble for two-pronged attack into Greece. I'm leaving the musket at home as we could make better use of our GA with more towns.

IBT
Rhiems:MDI>MDI; Marseilles:pike>MDI

turn 5 (300)
Declare on Greeks and two stacks enter their lands.

IBT
Avignon:temple>MDI.

turn 6 (310)
The DoW was popular with our citizens-turn off lux slider. Kill archer as our stacks land next to Athens and Sparta.

IBT
Greek horses arrive.
Paris:musket>musket.

turn 7 (320)
Lose two MDIs in taking Sparta and we have excess wines. Lose two more MDIs taking Athens but we now have the Oracle. The loss of culture opens up vast tracts of land for the foreign settlers to take up.

IBT
Horse attacks MDI but withdraws. Greeks send a galley down the western shore.
Seoul:MDI>MDI.

turn 8 (330)
Paris is not so happy so up lux to 10% again. Build Besancon (rax) upstream from Carthage ruins and other settler in place on the ruins.

IBT
Perse:pike>MDI

turn 9 (340)
Build Rouen (rax). Greek galley dropped off hoplite and settler by the Rouen settler-thanks for the slaves, Alex! Send smallish stack towards Thermopylae.

IBT
Chartres:MDI>MDI
Spain have built ToA in Madrid! :goodjob:

turn 10 (350)
Troops reach the edge of Thermo.

Before you press enter:
I was going to send our small force around Athens into Delphi to attack next turn to relieve the cultural pressure in Athens but I'll leave that up to you. I have moved none of these troops and there is also a MDI in Utica that you can move in that direction if you want to wait.

Current Production:
Paris can exceed 20 sheilds/turn from next go with an additional pop point and a little mm. Seoul has just reached 15 sheilds/turn so could switch to musket production. Antioch is now at 10 sheilds/turn and Tours will have the aquaduct in place for next turn so will become useful again. Most importantly we get the FP next turn which could tranform some of these fringe cities.

Cash!
We have a fair bit of cash to upgrade units and rush fringe production (current growth +113gpt) but I didn't use it with the FP so close to finishing.

Next Target?
Hopefully you can finish off the Greeks with the limited forces over there. (They have three towns still but could be down to one after the next turn!) We almost have roads to Ottomans but maybe the Spanish could be our next target (note road to Barca!) with their recent build of the ToA. Put that with our captured Oracle and we'll have a powerful combination. Lines of communication will not be stretched either.

Nice going Tone. I think Spain will make an ideal next target - ToA should be the game-winner.

Variant Rules:
We may never build ground units with a move rate above 1. This means no upgrades allowed to Mech Inf (if the game gets that far) or Radar Artillery (again...), of course.
No Armies, no SoZ!

The exception: Leaders. Of course, we have no means of preventing these from occuring, other than not attacking with Elites. SGLs are on too, I think. If we get a Leader of either type:
- Must move to the nearest city (MGLs can wait until a city's captured, if that's how they were generated) and rush an improvement/Small Wonder immediately.
- No Great Wonder-rushing with SGLs.

Standard SG rules/etiquette apply.

Roster:
eldar <- on deck
Ville
Veovim
Tone <- just played
Minute Man <- up

I posted the report in a hurry just before rushing out for a meal. I've just returned to see that 'colon p' is the code for :p . I was going to edit it but on reflection I shall leave it. It adds a certain something to the report. :)

(I told you that I don't normally build pikes which is why I wasn't aware of this before now!)

Got it. Kick butt and take (Greek) names. Begin preparing for a war with Spain. Sounds like a plan.

Got it. Kick butt and take (Greek) names. Begin preparing for a war with Spain. Sounds like a plan.
Also, our golden age hasn't been triggered yet. I think that if we wait until Spain to do that we might not get the full 20 turns, so we should do it now. :devil:

Also, our golden age hasn't been triggered yet. I think that if we wait until Spain to do that we might not get the full 20 turns, so we should do it now. :devil:

Yeah, I don't really understand why I keep seeing people bend over backwards to avoid using a perfectly good UU just because the timing of the GA isn't completely, totally, 100% optimal. If we were in Despotism, I'd understand, but... My philosophy is to use the UU to best advantage and take the GA when it comes.

Anyway, I think our muskets are too far west to be of much use against Greece. But they will be prominently featured in the Spanish campaign, if I have anything to say about it.

Also, is there some reason we haven't built even a single market? :hmm: What, don't we like having gold and happy people?

Not that any of this is going to matter in this game, of course. I think we're pretty much entering the mopping up stages here. So I'll get out my mop and see how many opponents I can sweep away. :)

Indeed - 1 Market = 3.333333333333333 Swords = 2.5 MedInfs. So we've not really needed them - and probably won't.

Now it'd be nice if we could finish this off before Easter weekend. Three guesses as to where I'll be going....

Well, I do think markets might have been useful earlier. Though admittedly I wasn't expecting us to be able to just roll over everybody this quickly with MDI's and pikes. I agree that there's not much point in building them now.

Now it'd be nice if we could finish this off before Easter weekend.

I'll get this played tonight. Then it's up to you. :)

Yeah, I don't really understand why I keep seeing people bend over backwards to avoid using a perfectly good UU just because the timing of the GA isn't completely, totally, 100% optimal. If we were in Despotism, I'd understand, but... My philosophy is to use the UU to best advantage and take the GA when it comes.Agree totally but I was not prepared to send units that I had built in my latest turns to defeat a weak enemy. I wanted new units to be ready for the next attack as soon as Greece had folded (or even before). I did not want all our best units taking four turns to get back into position once they had healed.
Also, is there some reason we haven't built even a single market? :hmm: What, don't we like having gold and happy people?
Are we planning to milk or conquer? IMO I never considered a market in my turns as I could always see where the next lux was coming from. We bought our happiness with swords & MDIs rather than markets, that's all ;) Now if we were running out of new luxes to get and/or research was a priority then I can see their use but I only build them when I need them in games like this. (I am doing my utmost to curb the builder element in me). We have stacks of cash and the lux slider is so low at the moment why bother with them?

Pre-flight:

I decide I do like the attack on Delphi. We have 3 MDI's and a sword, which hopefully should be enough. So I send the troops in.

I rush a settler out of Sparta. This seems better than starving the city, since we've got a big gap to fill. The citizen will be Greek, but hopefully that won't be a problem in a few turns. :D

Switch Pasargadae to a harbor - hopefully we won't need the temple, and we need more food there.

1 - 360 AD
Paris musket->musket. Seoul MDI->Musket. Sparta settler->barracks. Tours aqueduct->MDI. Lyons Forbidden Palace->MDI. Antioch MDI->MDI.

Get a message that the Spanish are building the Pyramids. :rotfl:

The Battle of Thermopylae commences. There'll be no repeat of history, as I take the city with no losses.

The Battle of Delphi is kind of a draw - lose two MDI's, kill two Hoplites. Unfortunately, there's a third, so fail to take the city. I'll have to back off and try again.

With the FP, we're at +138 gpt, so I decide to invest some of this huge pile of cash in building up our military. So I rush a couple of MDI's in less-productive cities and will continue to do so for the rest of my turns.

2 - 370 AD
Persepolis, Marseilles, Chartres MDI->MDI.

IT - A Greek horseman rides out of Corinth and almost kills a passing MDI. Where did the Greeks get horses?

3 - 380 AD
Pyongyang barracks->MDI. Tours, Antioch, Rheims MDI->MDI.

4 - 390 AD
Paris musket->MDI. Persepolis MDI->MDI. Lyons MDI->musket.

Found Grenoble in the gap between Athens and Sparta, just to take up space.

We now have four muskets and an even dozen MDI's in the vicinity of Paris. That should be enough to get the ball rolling, don't you think? :mischief: So I move a big stack to the Spanish border. We'll go in next turn.

5 - 400 AD
Seoul musket->musket. Tours, Antioch, Chartres MDI->MDI. Leptis Magna pike (?) -> harbor.

Call up Isabella and tell her that she's looking very lovely today, but her pretty head really would look better on the nice shiny pike we've reserved for her at the gates of Paris. For some reason she seems offended by this, as when I politely ask her to remove the random settler pair she has wandering across our territory, she declares war.

So I got some war happiness out of the deal to boot. Time to send in the troops...

On the eastern front, our army is sufficiently healed, so I march on Delphi again.

6 - 410 AD
Paris, Pyongyang, Avignon, Rheims MDI->MDI.

Istanbul builds the Pyramids. Way to stay relevant, Osman.

The second Battle of Delphi goes much better than the first, as we capture the city without loss. Next stop: Corinth. It's on a hill, though, so I'll take a few turns to heal first.

At Barcelona, lose a couple of MDI's to a pair of obnoxious spearmen, but take the city. I also pick off that settler pair that Izzy though was worth going to war over.

I just noticed that we never got around to founding embassies. They're cheap, so I establish them with the Ottos and Vikings.

7 - 420 AD
Pasargadae harbor->barracks. Tours, Antioch MDI->MDI.

Just shuffling troops around. Madrid has big culture borders, so it's going to take a few turns to get there.

8 - 430 AD
Paris, Chartres MDI->MDI. Lyons musket->musket.

More troops moving. I send our galley on a suicide run, just because I want to see if there's anything out there.

9 - 440 AD
Seoul musket->musket. Marseilles MDI->MDI. Theveste pike->harbor.

Our galley sinks. I guess we'll never know...

10 - 450 AD
Paris, Tours, Antioch, Chartres MDI->MDI.

OK, time to make up for the lack of news for the last few turns....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-byealex.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-Madrid.jpg

And look, we captured the MoM! :dance: Oh, yeah, and some great big temple, too....

So here's the current situation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-450AD.jpg

I have another SoD on its way to Seville, and more troops on the way to the front. We have an ungodly number of MDI's being produced (especially since I've been doing a bit of rushing here and there). After we take Seville, we might as well just declare war on the Ottomans and roll over everything in our path until we hit the domination limit.

Oh, and Izzy hasn't even put up enough of a fight to trigger our GA yet. Not that we really need it....

Have fun, eldar! Time to get some quality :hammer: in before the holiday weekend....

Nice going MM! :goodjob:

The horses came from Thermo. It was either held in reserve or the build started before you took their source on turn 1.

Once we have Seville are we going to declare on the Ottomans? They still haven't got Invention and with no research partners this will be their last tech if they get this far. If they get Theology we don't want that as it will make our Oracle obsolete. Chivalry will be useless to them as they have neither horses nor iron so we should only face archers and spears! Game over!

Sun Tzu-is that just a place holder? Your not expecting another turn in this game, are you?

I think I may get to finish it off tonight :D Still no GA :lol: I'll see if I can kick one off.

lurker's comment

just had to pop in and say :goodjob: to you all.
great game, and fast - considering you're only using slow unit ;)

I finished it off this morning... no real hitches. I'll post the full report after work (~9 hours or so).

Sun Tzu-is that just a place holder? Your not expecting another turn in this game, are you?

No, that was just a mistake on my part. The game kept suggesting Sun Tzu after I built pretty much everything, and I guess I clicked through the cities too fast on my last turn.

Sorry about the extreme lateness - things got busy Thursday evening and I've been away all weekend. Here we are though:

2 470 Take Seville, declare on Ottos. Kill a Spanish Warrior with a Musket to kick off our GA.

3 480 First battle of Istanbul: their Spears are too much for our MedInfs! One survives….

4 490 Istanbul Rd2: It take 4 MedInfs to knock off one lousy Spear, but finally we take the city and some big pointy things made of stone.

5 500 The ToA expansions roll in, taking us to 61%. Bursa Rd1:Two Spears gone, no casualties.

6 510 Bursa Rd2: City falls.

7 520 Edrine: 3 Spears, no casualties.

8 530 A Reg Spanish Archer lands by Sparta, which is on a hill with a Vet Pike for defense. I ignore the Archer. Lose a single MedInf attacking Iznik.

9 540 Iznik Rd2: the Spears are stubborn but the city falls, we are over 66%. Trondheim adds to the total. Kill the Archer with a MedInf.

10 550 No flips in the IT, we win :dance:

Win/mini-map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar03_gamewin.jpg

Next: progress maps and stuff, given our shaky start, might be interesting!

Took a while (I've not done one before...) but here's how it all panned out, in six neat pictures:

Thanks for sponsoring this game Eldar :thanx: . It was certainly interesting having to deal with that slight mishap earlier on, and nice to know that we came back and totally crushed everyone despite it :D .

What did your city ranking and "History will remember you as ..." screens look like? I watched the victory parade, but my city ranking screen was messed up (the #2 city was a size 2 Viking city that got razed by Osman ages ago), and the "History will remember you as ..." screen didn't come up at all.

We were "Magnificent" :D I don't remember what the top cities were, sorry.

The landmass certainly helped, with the variant chosen - almost as if the RNG knew what we were doing when it was picked! If I took it up a notch or two to Emperor or DG, I'd reduce the number of Civs; though looking at the 3950 shot, we did end up in the "crowded" part of the map!

Thanks for the game, Eldar. For the type of game we were to play, small and crowded suited us. I'm just glad we ended up where we were. We had water and iron-what else did we need? We made our own space!

Cheers

Tone

Thanks for the great game guys :thanx: