View Full Version : Trading Reputation


microbe
Mar 02, 2005, 12:36 PM
If you often wonder why AI would "almost" sell you a tech for 500g but would "never" do so if you add 1gpt, you should read on. In my opoinion, this is one of the most important game mechanisms that you have to know to play this game at the higher levels.

Note, this article describes what I think the game mechanism is from my experience in playing various games and incomplete testing. There are certain things that I haven't specifically tested but believed thus it is possible that some of them are completely or partially wrong. Feel free to correct me if you find any mistakes.

What is trading reputation?

First let's define "gpt deal". As far as trading reputation is concerned, "gpt deal" isn't an accurate name as you could risk trashing your reputation even if you are not paying gold-per-turn. A more accurate name is "rep-risky deal". A deal is rep-risky if any of the following is true:
* You pay per-turn (resources, gpt, RoP) goods for hard goods (techs or lump sum gold) from the AI.
* You export resources to the AI (even if the AI only pays per-turn goods)
* MA/MPP is involved.

But unless explicitly stated, we'll use the more common term "gpt deal" in this article to refer to rep-risky deals.

Trading reputation decides whether AI is willing to make gpt deal with you. It has the following characteristics:
* Your reputation starts with clean.
* Each AI has a record of your reputation separately.
* An AI views your rep as "trashed" if any of the following is true
- You had a gpt deal with this AI before which got terminated prematurely for certain reasons (see the next section).
- The AI knows or knew another AI with whom you had a broken gpt deal, and those two AI are NOT currently at war (that AI who you betrayed might have been destroyed). This is similar to what your foreign advisor says about "xxx is a known lier and betrayed our friend yyy".
* Once an AI thinks you have a trashed rep, it would be less willing to or never make any gpt deals with you anymore. Note the "less willing to". Although your rep is shot, you could still possibly make gpt deal but would have to pay a lot more. I think it depends on how big gpt payment you avoided in the broken deal. Practically, once you break a gpt deal you'll never be able to make such deal again.

How do you have a broken deal

Your gpt deal could get broken and trash your reputation if any of the following things happens before the 20-turn deal ends:
* You declare war on that AI (including MA/MPP).
* You are exporting resources and could no longer do so for the following reasons:
- the resources are lost, depleted or disconnected.
- the trade route between you and the AI is cut (AI capital isolated, harbor is destroyed, the AI through which the route goes declares war on you or the other AI, etc).
* You break an MA or MPP.

Cases that do not trash your rep

There are certain cases that a prematurely terminated gpt deal does not affect your rep.

1. The AI declares war on you

Of course you get no rep hit if the payee decides to end the deal by itself. It's often (ab)used by players to avoid huge gpt payment by deliberately tricking the AI to declare, such as asking the AI units to leave our territory. The key is to make sure the AI would declare (decided by relative power and its attitude), and that you could defend your territory until you could make peace.

2. The deal involves an MA and the target AI is destroyed

If you have a gpt deal with A in which you have MA against B. If B is destroyed before the 20-turn period expires, the deal ends immediately but your rep isn't affected. It's often (ab)used by players to sign an MA when the target AI is about to die, and get money back as soon as the AI is destroyed.

3. The AI you are paying gpt is destroyed

It doesn't include the case if you are paying resources.

4. The deal involves AI exporting resources but not you, and the AI cannot export resources anymore (pillaged or trade route is cut).

For example, if you have 120gpt for saltpeter+ToG from an AI, and the AI's saltpeter is pillaged, the trade ends and you get no rep hit, because it's the AI who cannot execute the trade, not you. It could also be used as exploit as you can disconnect your own capital and stop the gpt payment. The only thing you need is to include AI resources in the deal.

5. The deal involves both AI and you exporting resources, and the AI's resource is cut but trade route is fine.

I have not thoroughly tested this. I tried cutting my own capital off and it gave a rep hit, but not sure what happens if cutting AI capital off.

What to do if your rep is trashed?

Sometimes it's just unexpected or unfortunate that your rep is trashed even if that's not your intention, but don't panic, you can still do gpt deals with a trashed rep.

1. renegotiate peace treaty

If you can renegotiate peace treaty with an AI, you can include a gpt deal and AI would accept (probably with a bit prenium for the peace treaty itself).

2. MA

If you broke a deal with A, and want to make gpt deal with B, you could MA with B against A and B will forgive your betrayal to A.

RoP reputation

RoP reputation is a related topic but quite independent of trading reputation. It decides if AI is willing to sign RoP with you. Your RoP rep is trashed if you declare war on the AI while you have any units with attack/defense value (including boats) inside AI territory, regardless of whether you actually have RoP deal with the AI. Trading and RoP reputation is maintained separately and does not affect each other.

Peace treaty reputation

Well, there is no such a thing. It means if you sign or renew a peace treaty and declare within 20 turns, you do not incur a rep hit, unless by doing so you break a gpt deal (within the same peace treaty or not).

So you could attack an AI, sign peace and get several cities, and break it immediately without a rep hit. However, many consider it an exploit.

AI attitude

Last just to point out a common misunderstanding. Trading reputation has nothing to do with AI attitude. "AI being furious with me" says something about its attitude, but it would possibly still happily trade with you.

thetrooper
Mar 02, 2005, 12:39 PM
Thanks microbe!

What I have always been looking for. Reputation is a difficult matter.

Admiral Kutzov
Mar 02, 2005, 05:25 PM
Cool article :goodjob: Confirmed much of what I felt intuitively.

If only I was intelligent enough to get the big words... ;)

Question for you. I've jumped into a couple of emperor or so games late and everyones whining about "our crappy rep", yet I've been able to do gpt deals. If I understand you correctly, this is a function of AI 1 hates AI 2 more than me?

Whomp
Mar 02, 2005, 06:46 PM
Great stuff Microbe!
This is similar to what your foreign advisor says about "xxx is a known lier and betrayed our friend yyy".
It seems to me that it would be a good idea to try and help the AI trash their opinions of each other by cutting their trade routes if you can.

microbe
Mar 02, 2005, 07:30 PM
Question for you. I've jumped into a couple of emperor or so games late and everyones whining about "our crappy rep", yet I've been able to do gpt deals. If I understand you correctly, this is a function of AI 1 hates AI 2 more than me?

Not sure. I don't seem to have seen this. Maybe you can post a screen shot or tell me the exact words?

Admiral Kutzov
Mar 02, 2005, 09:18 PM
Not sure. I don't seem to have seen this. Maybe you can post a screen shot or tell me the exact words?


This is all fuzzy memory, but in one of the Jumpmasters games (A or C, IIRC), the long term players were depressed about bad rep, but I had no prob doing gpt. I'll see if I can find something specific for you to work with.

Edit: Been looking, can't find an example. If I have a senior moment and remember where, I'll be back (insert CA governor voice over...)

Whomp
Mar 03, 2005, 11:03 AM
I think the moderators should put this piece in the introductory section of the "War Academy".

It would save many people the frustration of wrecking their rep. I can remember a game awhile back where I was having good success on a arch. map and it almost tanked my game when I started a war and my trade routes were cutoff. By not clearing more fog first and only having one main trade route was a painful mistake.

Is helping wreck an AI's rep considered an exploit? I have never purposely attempted to wreck an AI's rep this way.

Grille
Mar 03, 2005, 05:59 PM
Is helping wreck an AI's rep considered an exploit? I have never purposely attempted to wreck an AI's rep this way.

You'd usually have to hurry for that purpose...:)

It's not uncommon that the AI get that task done on their own (by ROP-raping in the first place)

wit>trope
Mar 07, 2005, 10:13 PM
What about if you give a resource to an AI civ for free? If that trade is cut somehow would you still get the rep hit?

TimBentley
Mar 07, 2005, 11:41 PM
What about if you give a resource to an AI civ for free? If that trade is cut somehow would you still get the rep hit?
Yes. A more common rep hit I've heard of is having the resource demanded and losing the trade route.

plarq
Mar 11, 2005, 09:05 AM
Even rep is shot,we can trade per turn for per turns:e.g I traded AI 30gpt for Wines,it's allowed by AI.But I can't get Wines+Gold(Lump Sum).If I traded AI 20gpt+200g,it can still get wines.

microbe
Mar 11, 2005, 01:35 PM
Even rep is shot,we can trade per turn for per turns:e.g I traded AI 30gpt for Wines,it's allowed by AI.

This kind of trade is not the topic of this article as it doesn't affect your reputation even if you break it.

boogaboo
Mar 13, 2005, 06:22 AM
It seems to me that it would be a good idea to try and help the AI trash their opinions of each other by cutting their trade routes if you can.

Yes!
I will cause multiple AI-AI wars!
:D

tR1cKy
Mar 15, 2005, 10:03 AM
Interesting article. However, there's a glitch.

I'm trading with the Aztecs. I give wines for spices. In the middle, there are the Greeks at war with me, but i have a sea route to reach the Aztecs anyway. At a certain point, cultural expansion of some greek cities claims all the coastal tiles available. Nor me not the Aztecs have the ability to trade via proper sea squares. The trade route is broken. But my reputation remains intact.

Could it be that, when a route is broken not by your fault, your reputation isn't ruined?

Then, do you have an answer for this?

microbe
Mar 15, 2005, 02:01 PM
I'm trading with the Aztecs. I give wines for spices. In the middle, there are the Greeks at war with me, but i have a sea route to reach the Aztecs anyway. At a certain point, cultural expansion of some greek cities claims all the coastal tiles available. Nor me not the Aztecs have the ability to trade via proper sea squares. The trade route is broken. But my reputation remains intact.

A save exactly before the trade route got broken would be interesting to see.

Grille
Mar 15, 2005, 04:59 PM
Well, not 100% sure on this (but 99%;)), but I think that you get away w/o a ("major"?) rep hit in case the deal in question involved per-turn-deliveries only and is abandoned for what reason ever before the natural 20-turns expiration.

So say you have a
spice(11)---wines(11)
deal going and someone (a barb or whatever) pillages a road in the middle of the trade route which breaks down the connection, you don't get rid of the ability to sign such deals again (so no rep hit per definition).
However, if this deal inluded upfront stuff, like
spice(11),IronWorking---wines(11)
(you *get* the tech)
your rep will be trashed in cause of the interrupted trade route.
Of course, if you gave a way upfront stuff and accepted per-turn-donation only, the other side would be to blame.
So in case the trade route is somewhat risky, make sure you don't get a lump sum of gold, WM, worker, com or tech within the deal. This seems similar to the ROP rule (could even break a plain ROP by war declaration and still sign ROPs *if* you don't ROP-raped; dunno if that also applies to plain MPPs that get canceled by war declaration).

btw, slightly off-topic:
plain trade embargoes don't seem to hurt your rep in case your embargo-buddy leaves the stage before the deal expired

tR1cKy
Mar 16, 2005, 05:05 PM
A save exactly before the trade route got broken would be interesting to see.
Alas, no save available.

When the treaty broke, i was sure that my rep was thrashed. Only some turns later, when seeing that someone would like to accept gpt for a tech, i realized that my rep was in fact still intact.

Probably the question is resolved by Grille (thanx dude!). My treaty was luxury<->luxury and nothing else, and so its explanation fits in.

EDIT: i'm not sure the affordable deal was gpt for a tech, but it was something that required a clean reputation in order to be signed.

Gyathaar
Mar 16, 2005, 05:48 PM
You sure the civ you could so deal with was not at war with the AI that you had the broken deal with (or they didnt know that AI yet)?

microbe
Mar 17, 2005, 04:15 PM
So say you have a
spice(11)---wines(11)
deal going and someone (a barb or whatever) pillages a road in the middle of the trade route which breaks down the connection, you don't get rid of the ability to sign such deals again (so no rep hit per definition).


This is discussed in the article, and you get a rep hit.

Resources are special. Even if you trade resources for per-turn deal, the trade is risky as far as reputation is concerned. This is why someone demanding your resources could break your reputation if the trade route is cut.

Whomp
Mar 20, 2005, 12:21 PM
If our boat is in the AI's territory to start a turn and you move it out, declare and move it back in is that ok?

Pfeffersack
Mar 30, 2005, 05:57 AM
Excellent and very helpful article! :goodjob: I was looking for a detailed explanation of this since long ago, but must have missed it first.

If our boat is in the AI's territory to start a turn and you move it out, declare and move it back in is that ok?

Not completly sure, but I think I have done that without ruining my reputation.Troop position in the moment of the declaration of war matters.

The Fjonis
Mar 30, 2005, 08:42 AM
Just to get one thing absolutely straight: You say that having troops in an AI's territory and then declaring war causes a rep hit. It is the moment you declare war that is interesting, right? Say I don't have any troops in his territory, declare war, and start pouring units into his territory in the same turn - is that OK?

Whomp
Mar 30, 2005, 08:46 AM
@The Fjonis--Yes that's ok to do.

I wasn't sure if you're already in AI territory, move out, declare and then move back in if there's a rep hit. My impression is since you were out of AI territory when you declared you would not get the rep hit.

Herrs
May 11, 2005, 12:00 PM
What if you brake a deal what A who is in war with B and they sign peace later, will your rep with B be broken? Or, similary, If A and B don't have conact and later get to know each other will A "tell" B about your bad behaviour?

Perugia
Jun 28, 2005, 11:58 AM
This is really really helpful but I'm struggling with some of the finer detail.
* You pay per-turn (resources, gpt, RoP) goods for hard goods (techs or lump sum gold) from the AI.Can you confirm the definition of hard goods includes workers, maps, cities and communications ie anything that does not expire in 20 turns?

As you said under Peace Treaty Reputation, if you are paying per-turn for a peace treaty then that is also a "rep-risky deal". Shouldn't that be explicitly included in the first definition as a peace treaty is arguably not "hard goods" as it can be renegotiated in 20 turns.



Cases that do not trash your rep.....

There are certain cases that a prematurely terminated gpt deal does not affect your rep.

2. The deal involves an MA and the target AI is destroyed

If you have a gpt deal with A in which you have MA against B. If B is destroyed before the 20-turn period expires, the deal ends immediately but your rep isn't affected. It's often (ab)used by players to sign an MA when the target AI is about to die, and get money back as soon as the AI is destroyed.
Does it matter what else is included in the deal on either side, whether gpt or "hard goods"? Would you agree that as long as you include a MA in the deal and the target is eliminated the other gpt trades stop executing without a rep hit to either the player or AI A as neither side can execute the trade without B in the game.


3. The AI you are paying gpt is destroyed
It doesn't include the case if you are paying resources.
Do I understand correctly that if you are paying resources to a civ that is destroyed you get a rep hit.

Vol
Jul 31, 2005, 04:18 PM
There is an essential piece of information missing in this article, that I found out the hard way. This may only apply to PTW and not Conquests, but it has to be mentioned to warn anyone else who reads this guide.

My friend and I were playing an SG where reputation was essential, as no self research was allowed, and there was a limit on gold in the treasury (You can read our turnlog here, http://unhelpful.info/test/).

However, when I got the game back in 750 AD, our reputation was broken! We re-examined everything, and we had strictly followed the guidelines set out in Microbe's article. Yet our reputation was broken.

After much investigation, we determined the cause:
- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

Another important item left out:
- Your reputation is restored with civilizations that can no longer contact the civilization you offended
- If you get someone to declare war against the civilization that you offended, the new warring civ will now honor gpt trades with you
- This should also apply when you eliminate the civ you offended, so there is hope to restoring reputation.

The guide is otherwise great, but its unfortunate that this omission screwed up our game.

Himalia
Aug 01, 2005, 06:56 AM
I had no idea that you could actually gain rep back by crushing another Civ like that. Ill have to take a close look it seems to me no matter what you do the AI will be Anoyed with you about something.

nullspace
Aug 01, 2005, 06:19 PM
I'm quite sure that eliminating a civ does not fix your reputation. Your rep is only fixed with a civ is that civ is at war with the civ you screwed. Once that civ is eliminated, no one is at war with them, so everyone will hold you accountable for your dealbreaking.

Vol
Aug 01, 2005, 08:46 PM
Indeed.

I just tested this, and as soon as I eliminated that civ, everyone went back to treating me with broken reputation. In fact, its even worse. Prior to broken reputation, I could get 16 gold for 1 gpt. With broken reputation, but prior to eliminating the civ, I could get 3 gold for 1 gpt. Now I can only get 2 gold for 1 gpt (great deal!).

So if your reputation is broken, you can artifically recover it by getting all nations to go to war with the civ you offended. But, if that civ is ever eliminated, everyone will go back to treating you with broken reputation. I even tested the case where everyone who knows the civ is at war with them, yet as soon as they are eliminated, your reputation is broken again.

It seems very inconsistent that in one case (being at war), not being able to communicate with a civ means reputation is forgiven, but in another case (civ eliminated), not being able to communicate with a civ does not provide forgiveness.

Well, this is all very sad and unfortunate.

BTW, there's no way to mod a save game to somehow fix our reputation flag?

Daghdha
Aug 22, 2005, 06:18 AM
The info in this thread may just be the most vital when you move up from emp level trying to keep pace with AI on, say, deity. I 2 consecutive I have run into serious problems when my rep was ditched due to gpt deals that was broken unintentionally on my behalf. An RoP with an AI that involves another AI in between is a high risk deal indeed. In both these games the in-between civ has declared on me, thus breaking the RoP with far away civ. I didn't think RoP's were affected but now I know better ;)

Edit: One question has arised sice I started paying attantion to rep. If a do a gpt deal with an opponent and don't have the tech required to carry it out, will my rep go bye, bye? Example is suicide curraghs. On an arch map I can reach an AI with a suicide curragh and thus make a deal. But as i understand it, AI don't use this tactic. Could it be AI consider the deal broken as soon as it notices the there is no trade route?

microbe
Sep 01, 2005, 08:07 PM
After much investigation, we determined the cause:
- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

I didn't know about this and still doubt this is the case. It's in fact contradictory to my "Peace Treaty Reputation" section. If someone could come up with the save and instruction to reproduce this problem I'd certainly be intested.

microbe
Sep 01, 2005, 08:26 PM
Can you confirm the definition of hard goods includes workers, maps, cities and communications ie anything that does not expire in 20 turns?

Yes.


As you said under Peace Treaty Reputation, if you are paying per-turn for a peace treaty then that is also a "rep-risky deal". Shouldn't that be explicitly included in the first definition as a peace treaty is arguably not "hard goods" as it can be renegotiated in 20 turns.

It's actually quite different. If you sign a peace treaty and get some hard goods (like gold) from the AI, and immediately break it, your rep is intact. So peace treaty really has nothing to do with trading reputation.

However, I have to admit the rules about MA/MPP/Peace treaty didn't go through too much testing. Feel free to prove me wrong (but better with saves).


Does it matter what else is included in the deal on either side, whether gpt or "hard goods"? Would you agree that as long as you include a MA in the deal and the target is eliminated the other gpt trades stop executing without a rep hit to either the player or AI A as neither side can execute the trade without B in the game.


It doesn't matter. You always get away.

Do I understand correctly that if you are paying resources to a civ that is destroyed you get a rep hit.

Yes.

Vol
Sep 01, 2005, 08:32 PM
I will gladly provide the save. It is attached below. As previously stated, this was in PTW 1.27f.

If you load the game up, you will notice that our reputation is in-tact. The simplest test is offering 1 gpt to Korea for its 8 gold. They will accept the deal.

Now, straight-up declare war on Spain. Go back and check Korea. Now, for the same deal, they would never accept. Reputation is broken.

The per-turn trades with Russia are not a factor. As you can tell after war is declared, the spices and incense are still being traded. The path through Korea (land and sea) and the Great Lighthouse ensure it.

The current peace treaty with Spain was straight peace-for-peace, nothing else was included in the deal. If you don't believe me, I can provide the 600 AD save as well, as the same thing happens if you play from there.

If anyone can come up with an explanation other than the one I provided above, which contradicts this article, I welcome it.

Perugia
Sep 02, 2005, 07:45 AM
I loaded the save into Conquests 1.22 to see if it was just a PTW thing and found something seriously wrong with the save.

I managed to get the 1gpt deal with Korea as you said but prior to the DoW checked diplomacy with Spain. All of the options are greyed out - you cannot trade with Spain for anything. Specifically you cannot put the active peace treaty (14) on the table and then press escape.

With other civs hte diplo screen is OK and specifically you can put the peace treaty on the table and DoW by cancelling the active trade.

I reckon that means when you DoW on Spain the game treats it as if you actually moved a unit into their territory and attacked to carry out the DoW.

Vol how did you DoW? Do you get the greyed screen in PTW. I don't have my PTW disk with me so can't check now (I didn't bother to reinstall from the Conquests CD).

BTW I will look out for a save where I redeclared on an enemy and did not get a rep hit and will post it if I find one.

Vol
Sep 02, 2005, 10:24 AM
The declaration of war was done by selecting "We grow tired of your insolence, prepare for WAR!" on the first diplomacy screen. Just a straight-up declaration.

Of course you cannot renegotiate peace (it is grayed out) when the deal still has turns left on it. I'm aware of no per-turn deal that you can renegotiate (put back on the table) before its over.

You can trade anything else with Spain in the normal fashion, like getting their 15 gold and world map for contact with the vikings.

nullspace
Sep 02, 2005, 06:23 PM
I tried out Vol's save in conquests, and it works the way he describes. India's rep is fine to begin with (can trade gpt for lump sum). Declaring war on Spain breaks a 20-turn peace treaty, and breaks no other deals. After that, India's rep is ruined because of what we did to Spain (can't make the same trades as before).

I think the exploit with peace treaties is that you can always get paid for peace even if you always declare war again immediately after. It ruins you trade reputation, but other civs never learn that paying for peace buys them nothing.

Esox
Sep 22, 2005, 10:48 AM
Great thread, this one!

Has anyone experienced this: In my current game I have a luxury swap going. I am importing silks in exchange for 2 of my luxuries. While this trade is still active, I plan to capture a city (from a different AI) which would also give me my own source of the silks I'm already importing.
So what happens in a case like that? Will the deal be canceled, and would I get a rep hit? Or should I cancel the trade first?

TimBentley
Sep 22, 2005, 11:41 AM
You'll still be importing the silks.

TruePurple
Dec 10, 2005, 01:40 AM
- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146621

And I play conquest. I warred with them, made peace (can't remember if the initial deal had transaction in it) the peace expired, renewing itself to 20 turns. (and near as I can tell will just keep renewing itself, forcing you to attack at the specific turn between the set) So basically, if you have a peace treaty that has any turns on it. Its trust breaking to attack.

Smart
Dec 27, 2005, 04:49 AM
Peace treaty reputation

Well, there is no such a thing. It means if you sign or renew a peace treaty and declare within 20 turns, you do not incur a rep hit, unless by doing so you break a gpt deal (within the same peace treaty or not).

So you could attack an AI, sign peace and get several cities, and break it immediately without a rep hit. However, many consider it an exploit.


You cant breake peace treaty without a rep hit.
Moderators, please correct this article in War Academy, it misleads people.
Here is Deity SG (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=147885&page=6), where we have ruined rep using peace treaty abuse, anybody can download save and see that this article is wrong

wanhaiyang
Dec 28, 2005, 08:12 PM
Another issue that I don't think it has been specifically covered above, is the trading rep loss caused by destruction of the AI civilisation that you have a gpt trade with.

I used to make large gpt payments to AI civilisations on the brink of destruction in return for technology, so as to try and save a lot of money (i.e. I might only need to make 1 or 2 payments out of the 20). However I have stopped doing this as when such an AI is destroyed I suffered a large trading rep loss.

A way round suffering such rep loss is to keep the ailing AI alive by giving them one of your cities for free. If you have a city you can give them then you should consider first selling all its infrastructure and pillaging all its land improvements (Just to ensure it remains weak. I have had a case of doing this and then finding that another one of my cities culturally flipped to the "weaker" civilisation). You then should ensure you get a ROP with it and station defensive troops all around the city (on all 8 tiles and perhaps 2 or 3 troops per tile) so that the other AI civs can not destroy this last city.

Then you can wait and milk the AI (whose city you have surrounded) for all the technology it has (I am playing in Deity level so I am always behind in technology). Once the ailing AI has nothing more to give you, wait until the ROP is over and then destroy it.

tupaclives
Dec 28, 2005, 09:23 PM
That tactic was demonstrated superbly in 'Sid Vicious and the Magnificent 7+1' aside from good demonstration of that tactic it is also a terrific read about a truly incredible game, I would recommend it to anyone who is yet to read it.

bustedsynapses
Oct 24, 2007, 04:12 AM
Since Civ4 is out, I know few come back to these threads, but I'm new here, and wish to weigh in on this. I'm disabled, so have lots of time. I have played each C3C dozens of times, a few times for each nation. Specific experiences: Middle Ages. I trade with Burgundy via sea route at beginning of game. 5 turns later they lose their city w/harbor. My rep is trashed. I declare war while I have a unit in my victim's territory. I have violated RoP, even though I have no RoP. I have a MA, but make peace before 20 turns are up. Rep is trashed. If the MA included RoP, then I have violated RoP. If trade was involved, hten I broke trade agreement, as trade deal was tied to MA. No reason for the trade to stop, but it does because it's tied to MA. I have to make goods exchange separately, but sometimes, it is the only way to get the AI nation to ally with me. Essentially, I can never trade for other than gpt, no matter how careful I am, without getting my rep trashed, because the AI comes after me right away, and finds ways to break up the trade route, and it is always my fault. The only exception to this is if I trade with an immediate neighbor. I check every turn to see if trades are still functioning. I save every turn and reload to verify the cause of any break. I have logged more time at C3C than probably anyone, and I can say with authority, that unless the AI nation with whom you are trading declares war on you, your rep gets screwed.

Spoonwood
Nov 21, 2009, 10:44 PM
What if you're selling a tech to an AI for gpt and YOU declare on the AI? Anyone have any actual memory of declaring on the AI while still getting gpt from the AI and not getting a reputation hit?

I did a quick test on a game after I had launched the spaceship and it seems you won't get a reputation hit. Anyone else that can confirm this for me?

AlanH
Nov 22, 2009, 05:10 AM
As far as I know that's the case. You only get a rep hit if you are paying per-turn gold or resources to the AI and that deal is ended prematurely. Note that a deal can be ended by a trade route breakage, as well as a declaration of war by either party. I've lost per-turn trading reputation simply by selling a luxury to an AI and having the trade route broken by a barb galley.

Optional
Nov 22, 2009, 09:16 AM
Anyone have any actual memory of declaring on the AI while still getting gpt from the AI and not getting a reputation hit?I tested this once, after Own suggested doing such a thing with the Dutch in 'new succession game'. Yes, if you're not giving anything from your side, you can safely declare on that AI without any fear for your reputation. I didn't know it before either.

Spoonwood
Nov 22, 2009, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the responses guys!

ahman
Dec 10, 2010, 07:07 PM
So if your reputation is broken, you can artifically recover it by getting all nations to go to war with the civ you offended. But, if that civ is ever eliminated, everyone will go back to treating you with broken reputation.

It does however seem to work to destroy the civ before they get contact with any other civs than you. I've been alone on an island with Russia, and I gpt-raped them a long time ago. This turn England showed up, and Russia haven't seen them. I can get a good gpt deal with England - 38 gpt for Drama - both before and after I kill Russia (I'm already standing outside their last city, I was about to finish them off).

Clean rep! :D

vmxa
Dec 10, 2010, 10:18 PM
Yes you can break your rep with civ A and if civ A is eliminated, before civ A mets otherss, no one will know of you rep issue. We called it Arian Decpetion years ago.

Ceoladir
Dec 10, 2010, 10:34 PM
How can a dead Civ tell another about you're trashed rep, it's actually quite logical, however, I used to not think so. :lol:

ahman
Dec 15, 2010, 08:14 PM
Germany just screwed me on 25gpt when Iroquis convinced them to military alliance up on me (I wonder how much they payed them). When this happens I comfort myself with that at least they will have trouble making future deals with other AI civs.

Now my question: Am I wrong? Anyone have insight in the inner workings of AI to AI trade? Maybe they don't even care about reputation between them? They cheat in other ways, so why not in this.

It would also be good to know from a strategic point of view, because if AI:s have reputation between them, you could deliberately try to destroy reputations, to generally slow down technology advance!

If anyone has seen this already being discussed somewhere, could you please point me to the right thread? I can't seem to search for "AI trade" or "AI reputation" because AI is removed for being to short.

Happy Holidays.

SonicTH
Dec 18, 2013, 01:40 PM
Alright, time for a question!

Currently I'm playing the Age of Imperialism mod as Japan; I have the entire world against the United States and the British Empire. Now, once I finish off the US West Coast, I'm going to have to send my fleet around South America to get to the East; I would prefer to use the Panama Canal.

Unfortunately, the owners of Panama have an alliance with me for about 17 more turns. So my question is: will I incur a rep hit if I keep hitting them with espionage missions until they declare war on me? As I recall, the AI holds a war triggered by espionage against you since you provoked it.