Difficulty = Deity
Civilization = Random
Map = my standard Pangaea
Barbs = None
World Size = Standard

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (24 hours first choice)
Gozpel (24 hours first choice)
Greebley (24 hours first choice)
Meldor (24 hours first choice)

Sign up requirements: Multiple military wins at deity, and previous wins win crazed deity variants.

=====================

Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 3.
Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 3.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape, or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another landmass.

Worker baiting - You can't spread around and sacrifice workers to an oncoming attack. This is often done to avoid losing real units or cities. This takes advantage of the AI failure to prioritize targets.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.

2) Worker blockades are prohibited. This prevents things such as fortifying workers along the coast to stop invasions, blocking troops from going through your territory with workers, etc. Workers activity doing something along the coast is fine. The workers must be actively doing something.

3) You may not declare war on a civ if you are currently shipping cash and / or goods to the civ.

4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.

5) Our reputation is golden - please respect it.

6) Self-research is highly preferred, if it is viable. I would rather invest money in beakers to toward science, then waste it on demands. Minimum research is discouraged unless we have no viable alternatives. This may happen at times such as going for republic early on, or late game to insure we get nationalism.

7) As you probably know barbs are screwed up in C3C. It is preferred that you add the following line to your Civ3 .ini file - noAIpatrol=0. Adding "noAIpatrol=0" to the .ini file turns the annoying patrolling back on for the AIs, but also restores movement to the barbarians.

I like this concept and I think I'm ready for a "relaxed" game of Civ3 again. Plus, I've not really played a full LK game and I should. Sign me up if there's an opening.

Arathorn

I like this concept and I think I'm ready for a "relaxed" game of Civ3 again. Plus, I've not really played a full LK game and I should. Sign me up if there's an opening.

Arathorn I put you as first alternate. With Gozpel having PC problems (indefinite skip) I predict you will be in.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (24 hours first choice)
Gozpel (24 hours first choice)
Greebley (24 hours first choice)
Meldor (24 hours first choice)
Arathorn (first alternate)

You know, I really shouldn't sign up. But I've never played with Arathorn and I can't let it slip. So sign me up!

But if everyone can play, Arathorn can take my slot.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel (24 hours first choice) I suspect NO with PC problems.
Greebley (24 hours first choice)
Meldor (24 hours first choice)
Arathorn (first alternate)

I would like to try this again.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel (24 hours first choice) I suspect NO with PC problems.
Greebley
Meldor (24 hours first choice)
Arathorn (first alternate)

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Greebley
Meldor (24 hours first choice)
Arathorn
Open Slot? (first alternate)
With Gozpel on indefinite skip I am dropping him from the list. Arathorn is officially in, and Meldor is the only question mark.

Count me in...

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn

This one is full. I will start it today.

Could you move me to a later slot? I have two other games.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-2150BC.zip

3300 BC
(IT) I frelling hate disease from flood plains.


3150 BC
Japan walks over to say hello. I ship Japan Masonry and Alphabet for The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial and $10.


2670 BC
First contact is made with China. I ship them Alphabet and The Wheel for Bronze Working, Warrior Code and $20.


2310 BC
Orleans is formed, and we have a source of dyes.


2270 BC
(IT) The Byzantines have already completed the Colossus.


2150 BC
Lyons is formed and we have a source of silks.

A new border is found to the south. Greebley can found out who they are.

==========================

Summary:
We pretty much have to go farmer's gambit. It is the only way we won't wind up a 5CCC despite the new version of the rules relaxing the expansion phase.

I have no clue where the horses will come from, but have already snagged 2 luxuries with spare to trade later.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

A picture of the starting empire. Check out the crazy Oasis overload.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-636.jpg

Ok, I got it.

Not much to report. I continued the farmers gambit. We have 5 towns and will settle another soon. We have 2 warriors and two workers.

I tried to spread out our towns more than I usually do to claim more land.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95_BC1750.JPG

Who was the new mystery civ?

=====================

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

Odd, I thought we new 3 civs when I started. I am guessing you mean Russia?

In other words we know Russia, China, and Japan.

Somehow I missed the fact that Japan doesn't know Pottery. We can trade it for HBR at the very least.

Ya, I see what you mean. We met Russia my first turn.

I see it and it is in the queue

1750 BC (0)
The Mongols get Pottery for HBR and 6g. HBR, 33g and 7gpt goes to Cathy for Writing. HBR goes to the China for Mysticism and 1g.
(I) Orleans Worker->curragh

1725 BC (1)
(I)Mao demands 12g. He then starts the Pyramids.

1700 BC (2)
We meet the Byzantines and they have Iron Working, Math, Philo, Maps and Poly. Found Marseilles.
(I)Paris Settler->Settler, Tours Warrior->Warrior

1650 BC (4)
(I)The Japanese finish the Pyramids in Kyoto.

1600 BC (6)
(I)Paris Settler->Settler

1575 BC (7)
(I)Tours Warrior->Warrior

1525 BC (9)
(I)Lyons Worker->Warrior.

1500 BC (10)
Nada.

I have been building cheap MP for us It is being too expensive for us to not have them. Even with 2 luxes on line.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

Got it.

Arathorn

Well, now. How does one play Civ3 again? Something about building things starting with "w".... Oh, well. I'm sure it'll come back to me at some point.

In trying to get my bearings, I note we're down all visible techs to everybody except Japan. Japan is only up Iron Working and Polytheism. We're working on IW, of course, so we'll have no trade possibility once it comes in. Too late to stop now, though. Twofers are right out, as we have nowhere near enough cash.

Early turns are pretty straightforward, try to settle here, there, and everywhere, in a slightly more spaced pattern than typical, making sure each city has 12+ squares and a reasonable chance to not flip.

And sending out explorers. There's a lot of land around and we only have a couple warriors out exploring. Heck, it's almost impossible to even know where to settle, we have so little map information. Nearly all warriors produced are sent out on exploration missions.

Of course, this ticks a few people off, so I leave when kicked out by Mao, Theodora, Mao again, Theodora again, Cathy, etc. I also kiss Mao's feet in 1450 when he comes demanding all 14 of our gold. I briefly toyed with the idea of saying "NO!" just to get Lee's reaction, but it's so blatantly wrong, I just couldn't do it.

In 1325, upon founding Rouen in a slightly dangerous cultural spot (the temple should be whipped on turn 7 of the next player's turn), we got the FP message. Avignon might be the place for it. That's when things started heating up a bit.

A warrior met a different blue guy up in Theodora's territory in 1300 BC. He claimed to be an emissary of the Germans, led by some guy named Bismarck. Upon checking with them, they are only up Polytheism and Iron Working. Again, some x-fer action might be possible with cash (which would have been demanded away earlier, I know). Anyway, it drops our time to IW to 1 turn...1 beaker in fact. Typically, in that case, you can buy the tech for next-to-nothing. But, no, any civ with IW (all 5 of them, in this case) are insulted at the thought of 8 gold. Wild. I'll just complete the research.

So, when IW comes in, what do I pick? Literature, but I put no gold into it. I smell a deal coming soon, if we can swing it. Plus, the only iron anywhere near us is on the island to our SW and we will need Map Making ASAP to be able to claim it.

1275 shows more fruits of exploration labor. Egypt, in stunning yellow garb, is met in the east. She knows Math, Philosophy, and Polytheism that we don't. I want to buy MM and then trade it around for more cash and stuff, but we can't afford it yet. I'll risk one more turn at 0 sci and then see what happens.

Oh, BTW, Japan has iron, up by the Byzantines, but it was unconnected last we saw. Egypt has two sources, as they have one for trade (though we have no trade route). China has a source, unconnected as far as we know. And that's it, other than the one on "our" island, that we may have to hurry to claim.

In 1250, we can afford Map Making. China has the best deal for it...9 of our 40 gold and all 24 gpt (or maybe 1 less gpt and a bit more up-front). I'm certain we could then send MM to Egypt for Math and gold. With MM and Math, we'd be certain of getting Polytheism from Germany, but I'm not sure about Philosophy from Japan, though it's definitely a possibility, depending on what they've been researching. Polytheism would open up Monarchy for a nice min run on an expensive govt tech that we'll need/want (more on this later), since our cash will be tied up for 20 turns. 3 techs in 20 turns is a good deal, though, and it might be our only way to get iron. NOTE: I did *NOT* make any of these trades. I left it open to the team and the next player. I would do it in a solo game, for sure, but it's not appropriate for a turn 10 deal, IMO.

On government, I think we'll be needing to build big old slow stacks and using alliances, which means Monarchy, not Republic, will probably be better. We have no native horses and none particularly near. Our UU is best suited for slower, grind-out war. Plus, we really, really want to avoid casualties and slow stacks are better at that, if you can afford the time. With alliances (probably necessary), we can play "pick on the leader" and show a strong front, to get the razes we need. I think Monarchy and stacks of swords/MDI/longbow with catapult/trebuchet/cannon support and spears/pikemen/musketeers defending will be the way to go. With China and Japan as neighbors, the knight age won't be the most friendly to us, but big stacks and good allies will allow us some progress.

For me, I built warriors, workers, and settlers. A couple curraghs for exploration, and I started two temples in culture-attacked cities (Japan founded AFTER we did), plus one granary in a city I can't remember but that looks to have great worker factory potential -- ???? Worker Factory 2B or something like that.

Major NOTE Lux tax will need to be increased to 10% before you press enter!!! Else Paris will riot. This might cause a tiny budget problem, short-term, if you pay the 24 gpt, but it will resolve quickly as other towns grow.

Minor note, whip Rouen when you can, to get its temple up ASAP. It's in a culture war.

That's it for now. Fun stuff, but should be more fun later, when the fireworks begin. :) :D

Arathorn

As Sirian recently said "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away"...I look forward to following this one

I would make the deals, it is unlikely that we could do better on our own.

I got it and will play tomorrow night earliest. Need to file the god damn tax return..

In 1250, we can afford Map Making. China has the best deal for it...9 of our 40 gold and all 24 gpt (or maybe 1 less gpt and a bit more up-front). I say make the deal with the qualification of more gold up front. Gold will be demanded away and I prefer not to be to stretched for GPT. Without mapmaking we could get into a dispute on when the variant rule after the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. This variant all but requires mapmaking.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe (currently playing)


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

we got the FP message. Avignon might be the place for it.
That is always good news in ANY deity game. I've had more then one game at deity where it took ages before we could build it.

On government, I think we'll be needing to build big old slow stacks and using alliances, which means Monarchy, not Republic, will probably be better.
I agree with this. I really don't like Republic as much since the made units cost 2 gold each for support. I don't want a needed war to have major problems due to war weariness.

I finally got a chance to look at the game. There is *IRON* on the island. The Map Making deal is a must.

Looking at the lands we claimed we really need workers. The amount of jungle and swamps we have is absurd. If we get a lot of that island we gain mostly swamp and jungle. :rolleyes:

Plus, the only iron anywhere near us is on the island to our SW and we will need Map Making ASAP to be able to claim it.

Was I not clear enough with this?

Anyway, as I've thought about this a bit more, we should definitely minimize the gpt part of the payments to China and go ahead and spend our cash. We'll get cash from Egypt and probably from Germany and/or Japan, too. Income is more valuable than cash on-hand at this point.

As for workers, I couldn't agree more. One thing to remember is that the AI will never send workers to clear lands outside their cultural borders, so the river to our SE surrounded by marsh can be ours, if we get a couple workers to clear a spot for a settler. I think we should do that, once we get the island settled and we have a bit more workforce.

I started one town on a granary that can be an every-other turn worker factory once we are out of despotism. Paris can actually do warrior, worker repeat every two turns (even in despotism) if we let it grow, but we need the settlers more right now, as we need to get to the island soonest.

Arathorn

Was I not clear enough with this?
I read through your report and I didn't notice it. However, I often miss things like that unless highlighted. I think that is why I bold for the critical stuff. I didn't stick with me from your report.

preturn: raise lux to 10.

Interesting. When I ask "what do you want for Map Making" mao says "never", but if I manually do it we can buy with 23gpt+27g. I buy it and can still keep lux at 10 just break even.

Map Making to Egypt for Mathematics+26g. No deal possible from Japan. Map Making+Math to Germany for Polytheism+27g.

Egypt has monopoly on Monarchy, and Russia/China/Byzantines have CoL/Construction. They wouldn't trade with each other.

I make Orleans max shields and galley in 8 turns, and by doing so we actually make 1gpt.

1200BC: capital grows to 6 and we raise lux to 20 this turn.

IBT Germany starts Great Lighthouse.

1175BC: Germany starts MoM. A Chinese galley heads toward the island. :( We are 4 turns away from the galley, but instead of whipping it I use the two curraghs to block it. :D

Found Grenoble.

1125BC: We can afford min research on Lit..

1050BC: Byzantines complete MoM.

1025BC: We found Dijon to claim the iron. We are making +6gpt now.

1000BC: raise lux to 20 this turn.

Note: there is Chinese settler pair going to claim the spot west to Orleans. Our next settler should settle first. Our existing settler is going to found on the hills NE to Grenoble.

All following settlers then should claim the island.

Make sure to block the Chinese galley like this. As long as it cannot move to costal tiles within 3 movements it'd go back to Xinjian. Do this until we settle the entire island.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1000BC1.jpg

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-750BC.zip

We still have one mystery civ hiding out there. I hope to find them soon.

975 BC
The Byzantines complete the Great Wall.


950 BC
I pop rush the temple in Rouen at exactly 20 shields needed.


925 BC
Amiens is formed and starts a temple. Our empire badly needs more culture to avoid flips.


900 BC
Cherbourg is formed and it starts a harbor.
I partial whip temples in Avignon and Grenoble via settler, then back to temple.
(IT) Our minimum science run is a waste as multiple civs starts the Great Library.


825 BC
I whip a temple in Rheims.
I should have done this on the first turn. I swap our minimum science to Monarchy. We can't get to a better government quick enough.
(IT) Egypt completes Temple of Artemis. That is a wonder I am glad is far away from us.
They ALSO complete Hanging Gardens the same turn.


800 BC
Japan is going to build a city NW of Orleans. I had a feeling that was where the land-based settler was going, but they also snuck one in by boat. I swap Orleans to temple because of the upcoming culture conflict.
(IT) The Byzantines get $25. Japan is next for $24.
Moscow completes the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse.

==========================

Summary:
I can sum up our needs in 2 words: Culture and Workers.
Culture is due to multiple cities are in culture conflict. Please finish whipping the temples where possible.
Even with Industrious the lands are so horrid we probably need to double our worker force.

IMPORTANT: China has a settler wandering on the island. If Greebley isn't careful we will lose a city spot there.
The settler in Besancon is heading toward the worker on the swamp.

I think the expansion phase is over and Paris is now on worker duty. Greebley, if you can find a legitimate spot I missed you can swap back to settler. We won't get another spot on the island as I expect China to claim the fish on the hill spot.

I started irrigation from Rouen towards Rheims. Please keep it moving that way. Several of our cities are dead for population until those plains are irrigated.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

IMPORTANT: China has a settler wandering on the island. If Greebley isn't careful we will lose a city spot there.

How did they get there? Did we let the galley slip?

Ok, I got it.

My guess is a second galley. I don't see how you could block 2 galleys on different squares.

Preturn: I think there is room for a second settler in the swamp and perhaps a fourth one on the island. It costs less to research Monarchy than to buy it. I decide to go full research so we can get it. It is a govt tech and thus costs more.

IBT:

730 BC: Build the town Poiters on the island. I send our warrior to try to stand on the one spot I think China can build a city on that island. By using the boat I think I can beat the Chinese Settler. It means leaving the new town undefended, but I doubt China will try to take it.

IBT:

710 BC: There are Gems close to our borders. Not sure if we could claim them. They are mostly in Chinese territory. I think our first war may be with China. We could use another Lux.

IBT:

690 BC: Build Toulouse in the swamp. It looks like one more town in the Swamp and one more on the island will be it. When those are built we will start the Variant.

670 BC:

650 BC:

630 BC:

610 BC:

590 BC: Build Bayonne, the fourth and last city on the island.

570 BC:

550 BC: Dijon riots. Unfortunately, it will starve next turn back to size 1.

Notes: I switched the worker factory to a temple. It needs more shield squares. Right now it makes tons of food but take too long to get the shields for the worker. I would rush it when it has 40 shields to go (4 turns or so).

We have a settler on a square that is Swamp. We started clearing it but have some turns to go. After it is settled (5 turns) we start the variant.

I am building Barracks so we can start building forces. I would like to hit china in the not to distant future.

Here is a picture of our territory.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95_BC550.JPG

One thing I forgot: I didn't start the Forbidden Palace. We should decide on a city and start building it.

Also research is still much cheaper than buying Monarchy, but we might be able to get another tech as some civs don't have it. The cost was 19 gpt and our 66 gold. Japan and Germany both don't have it so it is probably worth buying it and then trading for other techs from them.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

I see it and it is in the queue...

I got a chance to look at the game. I saw the last spot proposed by Greebley. Do we really want a city in cultural conflict with the Chinese capitol?

We have done a decent job with culture as several temples have completed, but the AI is still 3 times our cultural and growing faster. We have 3 more temples on the way, but that isn't enough to close the gap.

I thought it ok since it was only a single square and it gets a lot of unclaimed land. Also I would like to make China the first target. I am amenable to not building it if that is what the team wants of course.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing) @48 hours time limit for results
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Sorry, didn't get to play last night...

550 BC (0)
OK, we have a Japanese warrior in our midst and a Chinese spear on the island. I can't boot the Chinese 'cause we have an undefended an rioting city there. Looks like the Japanese and Russians are unhappy with each other. That might make either of those an excellent choice as a first target.
Monarchy for 19gpt and 54g from the Chinese.
Monarchy and 6gpt gets us Currency, Lit and Philosophy from Japan.
Monarchy, Currency, 7gpt and 7g gats us Code of Laws and Construction from Germany.
That catches us up with the lowest AI but we are still down at least Republic, Monotheism, Feudalism and Engineering to the rest. I start a 50 turn run on Engineering, but hopefully we can improve the economy enough to speed that up. I wake the worker in Cherburg and send it towards Dijon so it can use both citizens and get the harbor there faster.
(I)We get booted all over. Paris Rax-Market, Poitiers Worler->Worker,

530 BC (1)
May have to diband the explorers, we are out of neutral territorry and trying to bring them home will only make the AIs lass than happy.
(I) Watch Russia and Japan go at it. The Byzantines start Sun's. The Germans start Sun's

470 BC (4)
(I)Lyons Rax->Market, Rouen Rax->MarketCherburg Worker->Warrior, Avignon Worker->Worker, Beascon Spear->Temple, Grenoble Temple->Rax

450 BC (5)
Found the last city. We are no officially in the Raze3 to build phase.
(I)

430 BC (6)
(I) The Byzantines start Leo's.

410 BC (7)
(I)Bayonne Worker->Worker. The Chinese start Sun's, the Eygptians start Sistine.

390 BC (8)
(I) Paris Market->Temple. The Russians start Sistine.

370 BC (9)
(I) The Japanese start Sun's.

350 BC (10)
Whipped the temple at the Wroker Farm.
Builders turns. I don't know when we should start. We need to at least the iron connected so we can upgrade the warriors first.

Deleted - first double post in ages. :mad:

Monarchy for 19gpt and 54g from the Chinese.
We got the target government. Did we revolt? I doesn't sound like we did. :(


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0


Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Got it. Looks like I get to play a bunch of anarchy and then maybe a very few builder turns.

Arathorn

I did not go to monarcy because we needed to build up the cash to go through it and still meet payments.

(0) 350 - Fix Orleans to get granary before growth. Check out the probable cash situation with specialists. We can revolt very soon, but I want to let a couple projects finish first. Plus, there's this Japanese MDI by one of our towns and I don't want to fight while in anarchy.

(I) Ahhh -- the Japanese and the Russians are fighting -- good to know. And, bad, Cleo demands silks. I'd've been happy to trade them for a bit of gold. Worth a possible war declaration? She's far away, but either Japan or China coming at us soon, in a MA, would be BAD. I grumble and pay the ... nice lady.

(1) 330 - Workers work. REVOLT! -28 gpt with 70 gold at the start. MM gets us to essentially 0 gpt, but with one inevitable starvation and minimal to no growth. Of course, it's a 7-turn job.

(2) 310 - (7) 210 Watch Japan and Russia fight. See KT, Sistine, Copernicus started. See a Russian musket. We're way behind in tech. Watch China move a few troops towards us.

(8) 190 - Hey, we're a Monarchy! We can afford 20% science. And we can start growing again. Plus, we have a few workers complete jobs.

(9) 170 - Still noboby directly fighting us...that's good.

(10) 150 - Gold returned. We can afford to sustain 60% science, which is being poured into Feudalism, which is never worth buying. We're down all visible techs and a few beyond that, to everybody.

Notes:
- A few regular warriors by Krasnoy...are trying to get home to serve as MP. They've been trying for a while, being booted here and there and traipsing through different people's lands to try to get home. Warm bodies are very good in Monarchy, however.
- We need everything, including workers desperately. First target might be better served to be Japan, but we can't fight anybody at this point.
- Water vessels (galley and curragh) are trying to find the elusive missing civ.
- I tried to get a screenie, but my computer crashed (again), so you'll have to beg the next person. Sorry. :(

Arathorn

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

preturn: flip calculator says Strasburg has a 5% chance to flip..

So..we haven't connected iron.

Our cities have too much food. Good to pump some workers here and there, but sucks for builds.

IBT Germany and China start Leonard's. Egypt starts Magellan's! :eek:

Look at this!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-150BC.jpg

I start capital on library.

See Russia fighting with someone in the fog.

50BC: I buy WM+86g from Egypt by dyes. She has Navigation so the trade route is safe.

It reveals where Celt is (on a separate island). We can get there in 7 turns.

Since Celt is the smallest, I see there is trading opportunity, and the price is cheap so I buy the contact by our WM+42g.

Unfortunately, Celt is so backward that it doesn't even have Writing. :wallbash:

30BC: China gets 30g.

Egypt completes Leonard's. Byzantines complete Sun Tzu.

30AD: Egypt completes Knights Templar.

Not much. Tours Worker Factory is a 2-turn worker factory and you have to MM every 2 turns. It should keep producing workers and I think we want to merge them into other towns.

It's disappointing how backward Celts are. We are in a weird position to fall so behind with 2nd largest territory.

I haven't started FP and where do we build it?

I haven't established new embassies but we have cash to build one.

We are in a weird position to fall so behind with 2nd largest territory.
The trouble is so much of the territory is JUNK. Plains with far away water, a ton of swamp and jungle, and the whole island is garbage outside of the iron.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

On the FP -- I still think Avignon is the place for it. Cash-rush complete the courthouse there and then start the FP. It has reasonable short- and middle- term value, as well as being in the general direction of our expansion for distance corruption. It has a variety of land and pretty good prospects as a semi-power-city down the road, with plains, hill(s), and grasslands. With water becoming available to the area, I think it should be done.

I agree with Lee on our lands -- they SUCK. We have a nearly infinite amount of wetland to clear -- jungle and marsh both. Defending that land is non-trivial, too, but probably needs to be done. In a "regular" game, we could just hole up as a Republic and dig our way out (from the land and the tech hole) with a bunch of workers. With the variant, we need to go on offense semi-soonish.

We need pikes, MDI, and catapults and would like musketeers, longbows, and trebuchets fairly soon. I say go across the bottom, skip chivalry, and try to get a good slow-moving force together...use it to try to beat some upper-level techs out of our foes.

Three potential first foes:
- Japan -- share a northern border. Could get one fairly easy raise to the west and then not have a too-large front. They're already at war with the Russians. Byzantines behind them could be a good ally. They're the largest and I don't want to ignore the biggest threat this time.

- China -- Eastern border. Slightly larger front. Would save us some cultural battles that we will eventually lose, in all likelihood. Egypt and Russia as potential valuable allies. They might choose for us, too. Plus we can probably get them to declare if we demand they leave.

- Russia -- eastern border. Hard to see three cities to raze. But one easy, close city (Kras) would get us horses, if we could plant a city there. At war with Japan, so starting to thin on units.

My pick -- Japan as soon as we are ready. Ally with Byzantines (so they're an embassy priority) and hope the Russians continue to fight. China second, with the troops from the Japan war. To do this, we need troops and more workers to keep us in the game. Paris, Rheims, and another city or two can and should go to all units very soon, IMO.

Arathorn

That plan sounds reasonable to me. I definitely think we should be working towards war and your plan sounds well reasoned way to go about it.

Given the amount of lands we need to improve I don't think we should merge workers into other towns as Microbe suggests. I think we should keep them working full time to get rid of the swamps and jungles as fast as possible.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-250AD.zip


50 AD
Our cities are heavy on workers, and culture. I see nothing to change as we badly need an improved culture rating, and we still have an absurd amount of land to fix.

I hate keeping luxuries around to be demanded. I ship Silks to the absurdly cash rich Egypt (over $3800 before trading) for Feudalism (saves 2 turns), wm and $120. I start researching Engineering next.
I partial rush the courthouse via granary. I steal good tiles from Grenoble and the courthouse is due in 4 turns.

I don't have enough cash for a Byzantine embassy, but I can establish one with Japan.
Japan has horses, iron, 4 luxuries, the Pyramids, multiple buildings with Samurai being built. You know Japan is having a GA.

(IT) We get our second palace expansion. We must be doing something right.


70 AD
(IT) Japan steals our whopping $16.
China completes Sistine Chapel in Beijing. As if Stroudsburg doesn't have enough cultural pressure.


90 AD
(IT) The Byzantines steal our tm. I am surprised our $11 survived.
The $11 surviving is useless as Russia steals it.


110 AD
(IT) The FP is due in 23 turns.


170 AD
Picking up a few bucks from map sales lets me build an embassy with Russia.
Russia has iron, horses and salt. They have 4 luxuries. The capitol is downright pathetic with the Great Library as the only building outside of the Palace.
(IT) Egypt is buildings Shakespeare.
The backwards Celts complete SoZ. That won't help them much to escape that useless island.

==========================


Summary:
We are finally starting to build useful military. Paris is building every other turn MDI. We still need more cities on military including replacements for our regular warriors that are defending front-line cities.

Unit costs are starting to take a toll on our economy. However, we can't do much about it at the moment. We still need a more workers, and pikes to replace the regular warriors before disbanding them.

I wouldn't bother selling maps unless we can get enough cash for another embassy.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

Ok, I got it.

How close is the Russian capital? Could we raze two other cities on the way to it?

Preturn: Paris is at Max pop. I switch it to a worker.
I change the colosseum in Rouen too (I go for Granary so I can build more workers since we are past an MDI). That is too many shields. Everything else I agree with.

IBT: Russia has knights, but Japan isn't showing any Samuri.

260 AD:

270 AD: Find another town building a Colosseum. Switch to MDI. I disagree with building culture when we have to raze all the cities anyway.

280-330 AD: Zzz.

340 AD: We lose Strausburg(flips) Not entirely unexpected.

350 AD:

Notes:
I built military almost exclusively. We seemed very weak militarily with no pike and few MDI. This seemed more important than the Infra to me. We want to attack soon.

I also built workers. We have a lot and should be able to clear our lands fairly quickly at which point we can merge them back in.

We have 6 pikes and 6 MDI.

Rouen is starving for a turn to complete its MDI this turn. Switch it back when it is done.

We have several workers we can disband.

I am guessing that if we stay on Military for 10 more turns we should be ready to attack.

I see it and it is in the queue

I disagree with building culture when we have to raze all the cities anyway.
This was NOT about building culture. This was trying to get happy size 12 cities without specialists.


We lose Strasburg (flips) Not entirely unexpected.
I am really sorry I didn't push harder not to build it. Now we could see additional cities in trouble from China.

We have several workers we can disband.
I hope you mean warriors.


We have 6 pikes and 6 MDI.

I am guessing that if we stay on Military for 10 more turns we should be ready to attack.
I think we need a lot more then 10 turns. We know Japan has fast units, and Russia has fast units as I witnessed during my turn. The only question mark is China. We have no catapults.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

I took a look at the game. I think we need to decide a cutoff point for additional workers. We now have 43 workers and the worker pump is still going. We will stay hopelessly behind in tech at a 30% science rate. The reason it is that low is the support for all the workers and to many cities below size 7 for the extra unit support.

A lot of the work being done won't pay of for a long time. There are several cities such as Rheims and Lyon that need an aqueduct to grow. However, they are developed to grow far above that.

This was NOT about building culture. This was trying to get happy size 12 cities without specialists.

Note that I wasn't implying the colosseum wasn't useful. It certainly is for the reason you mention (which I realized after the culture statement). Its just that too many games (the last time we played this variant for example) we concentrated too much on infrastructure. I feel we needed units more.

I am really sorry I didn't push harder not to build it. Now we could see additional cities in trouble from China

The solution is to go to war with China. I was hoping to do so before this. I just feel bad about not rushing the temple. Its flip chance was too high without it.

In any case China would have probably built that city anyway. At least we got something from it.

I hope you mean warriors.
Ya, I meant warriors. The workers can be merged when we are ready for that.

I agree we have enough workers. We still have lands that really need improving. At least one city was using marsh and another was using two unimproved mountains. so I wouldn't merge them yet.


I think we need a lot more then 10 turns. We know Japan has fast units, and Russia has fast units as I witnessed during my turn. The only question mark is China. We have no catapults.

I didn't see fast units for Japan which I though was odd. I don't see why we need too many units for Russia at least. True they have fast units, but they are busy with Japan. They won't be any threat to us. On the other hand, I don't think Russia is the civ that I would want to attack. Japan is my choice they are getting strong. When we attack a civ the strong civ will send settlers since we cannot settle the land we take. I think we want to attack the strongest civ early which is Japan.

So I think we should concentrate on Mil (aquaducts I agree with though) until we can war with Japan.

I think we want to attack the strongest civ early, which is Japan.
The trouble is we have a horridly long border with then and NO fast units. What sucks is we are again in the trap that the leading civ has the only horses for sale. I don't see how we can survive a Japanese onslaught with limited slow units..

Its just that too many games (the last time we played this variant for example) we concentrated too much on infrastructure.
Last game the mistake was because it was late in the game. I fear that too much military together with the monster worker forces will trap us hopelessly behind in tech for the rest of the game. GOZ7 that we are playing in proves the danger of staying behind in tech to long. IMO we jumped the gun on military.


I notice we again have silks and dyes for sale. I would much rather sell them the luxuries, before we suffer an AI demand. I would hate to be trapped between giving in to demand from a civ we were planning to attack prematurely and delaying war for 20 turns.

We may have to agree to disagree on this. Even if they have Samuri (which I don't think they do yet - I saw no sign of any) when fighting in our territory we have the advantage of roads that offset their speed. I suspect before we attack they will have Samuri unless we attack right away. But I do think we want a war before Cavalry for sure. No war before Cavalry seems a bad idea to me. In fact I would rather we had started the Military earlier, but we had so much junk land that it was hard to do so.

We do need Trebuchets I think. I would build more of those soon.

Agree on the lux although a demand may be less likely with us having units now.

Even if they have Samurai (which I don't think they do yet - I saw no sign of any) when fighting in our territory we have the advantage of roads that offset their speed.

REPEAT: I saw Samurai kill a Russian unit. Not only did I see them, I saw them WIN a battle. Japan is probably just finishing up a GA.

Speed 2 units can cross our border and attack in a single turn. When you consider that we have a lot of area with just one tile wide borders...

I took a look at the game. I think we need to decide a cutoff point for additional workers. We now have 43 workers and the worker pump is still going. We will stay hopelessly behind in tech at a 30% science rate. The reason it is that low is the support for all the workers and to many cities below size 7 for the extra unit support.

A lot of the work being done won't pay of for a long time. There are several cities such as Rheims and Lyon that need an aqueduct to grow. However, they are developed to grow far above that.
The smartest solution to this is to continue to pump workers and merge them into the cities as the ducts are built so we can get them all up to size 12 work the tiles, add more support.

The smartest solution to this is to continue to pump workers and merge them into the cities as the ducts are built so we can get them all up to size 12 work the tiles, add more support.

This is exactly what I suggested at the end of my turns. I am glad people now see its merit. :)

The smartest solution to this is to continue to pump workers and merge them into the cities as the ducts are built so we can get them all up to size 12 work the tiles, add more support.

Well the only problems is NO ducts are being built!

Had to work late last night so didn't get to wokr this one, I should get aoff early today and will do this first thing when I get home.

350 AD (0)
Swap some cities to ducts, they can go military after.
(I) Bayonne worker->Temple, The Chinese complete Bach's.

360 AD (1)
(I)Paris MDI->MDI, Tours Worker->Worker, Rouen MDI->MDI

370 AD (2)
Merge 2 workers into Orleans to get it up to 12. We need to get rid of that Japanese town so it can work more shields.
(I)Grenoble Worker->Aqueduct.

380 AD (3)
(I) Paris and Orleans MDI-MDI, Tours worker->Market, Cherbourg Temple->Market,

390 AD (4)
(I)Rheims and Chartres Treb->Treb, Dijon Rax->Temple

400 AD (5)
(I)Paris and Rouen MDI->MDI. Egypt finishes Shakes.

420 AD (7)
(I)AVignon FP->Aqueduct, Poitiers Worker->Temple. The Egyptians finish Smith's.

430 AD (8)
(I)Paris MDI->MDI

440 AD (9)
(I)Paris MDI->MDI, Rheims Treb->Treb, Besancon Aqueduct->Market, Rouen MDI->Library, Toulouse Pike->Market.

450 AD (10)
Not much, we can now join some workers into Bescanon.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

Got it. I'll try, but my computer's going, so I can't make promises. Sorry. I give it a 70% chance of being done tonight, but....

Arathorn

Sorry.

My old computer essentially finished dying. I think I have the new one up and running a bit -- enough to post, but there's still a lot of work to be done before I'll have time to play. Skip me this round.

Arathorn

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

Got it

preturn: you know what? I really think we should have revolted into Republic. We aren't likely to stay at war for too long before industrial ages anyway.

Russia is losing to Japan, and we could join the party, but we cannot claim the horses without razing 3 cities. I guess maybe China?

I sell silks to Egypt for Invention+6g (full price). I then sell our only iron to Byzantines for Gunpowder+15gpt (full price). I'm betting that we have saltpeter, and we do!

Russia, Germany and Japan lack Chemistry, but we can't buy it from Byzantines with our extra dyes, so I start researching Chemistry.

I start building our UU.

I don't think a war with Japan is wise as the frontline is too long. China seems a better choice, but they may have not had their GA yet, so it must be a fast war. Of course, we need to get more military and we'll start our GA too.

Amiens is working on an unimproved grassland and switch to an irrigated plain and we gain one shield.

China has no saltpeter.

IBT Egypt starts Newton.

460AD:

China starts Newton too. Would we be able to attack efore it gets riflemen?

490AD: Japan demands 4g+TM and I give to it.

500AD: I decide to put sci at zero to save gold instead as we get more gold than beakers (71gpt vs 63 beakers).

We build our first UU.

510AD: We can now buy Chemistry. I buy from Byzantines by dyes+WM+71gpt+165g.

Chemistry to Russia for Monotheism+worker+WM+6g. Chemistry to Germany for Theology+3g. Chemistry to Japan for Education+WM, and we can almost get horses. Chemistry is worth a lot. :)

We have 22g and make 1gpt. :lol:

I set 3 scientists to Metallurgy. We anyway want to buy this to broker with the three less advanced ones.

Anyway, we are broke but we've got 6 techs so far, not too shabby.

Russia is totally crippled. I'd like to attack and raze its towns but those marshes prevent our trebs abd we need to go through Chinese territory, but we don't have embassy. I'm saving gold for that..

530AD: somehow we are making +13gpt now.

540AD: Celts demand Currency, and of course I say no. He backs off.

550AD: I establish embassy with China: Beijing is building Newton in 3 turns. It has 7 pikes. Beijing has all improvements with Sistine and JS Bach's! The only good thing is it lacks saltpeter, but it'll soon get riflemen..

Note: I suggest we sign RoP with China (pay 1gpt) and attack Russia. Our MDIs are in Tououse and Avignon. We probably should build a settler from somewhere too. We probably can't raze more than one town but it's better than nothing. If we could get an GA it would be even better.

Japan is growing but it's backward. The most advanced are Egypt, China and Byzantines.

The weird thing is I see no cavalry. Maybe AI hasn't researched it yet. As of now I think we should stay low until we get to Industrial Ages (or at least cavalry). We have enough territory for now. That's why I think we should have gone for republic.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-550AD.jpg

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

I still think we need to attack Japan. They have been using up their troops and won't send in a huge initial force. We have had 20 turns to build forces since my turn.

Attacking any other civ is foolish, IMO. We will just give more lands to Japan. Lets attack them now when they are not as advanced. and before they have Cav or Rifles.

I still think we need to attack Japan. They have been using up their troops and won't send in a huge initial force. We have had 20 turns to build forces since my turn.


But we were not fully on military. We still have essential buildings to finish, and do not have enough units to do much more than razing one or two towns.

My opinion is that in this game we can't raze one or two here and there and then sign peace immediately, as AI would resettle. We need to keep the war going once we start, and that's where Monarchy shines. We definitely are not in that position yet.

On the other hand, many AIs are in democracy. Dragging them into war is something we should try to do. So, we probably should wait for the current deal to end and MA them against someone we want to fight.

The problem as I see it is that we spend our time building "essential" buildings game after game - some we win but some we lose because of a run away civ. I would like to try a militaristic approach to this problem. I feel it is the solution. We let some civ like Japan establish itself and build up after the initial war and then need many times as many troops to win.

If we delay some infra and use military and alliances, we can weaken the leading AI, gain more cities and catch up in the infra later. I would at least like to try this one game and see how it goes rather than playing the same way each game.

I am not sure this will stop some of the losses we have recently gotten, but I have a strong suspicion that it would be effective or at least give us more time to win. This is especially true in a game where our number of towns is limited because we remain at peace.

We chose Monarchy and can afford a 20 year war with Japan. I would have liked to have started the war already with Alliances. With 2-3 civs on our side we could really hurt Japan.

If the AI's were evenly balanced I would be fine with a peaceful game. An unbalanced game AI-wise requires war IMO. A peaceful game has advantages - easier to catch up in tech, faster infra to grow, etc. This doesn't help if Japan wins before we are ready to take them out as happened with Persia in the previous game.

There is no runaway AI in this game. There are 3 advanced ones barely made into IA I believe (not seen riflemen from China yet). Japan is biggest but is not the first tier, so I'm not worried at all.

I understand your desire to try military approach, and I agree to some degree. CIV has been such a game that human players dominate after getting infantry and artillery, and that's simply THE best strategy. It's a bit boring, so if we want to try something different, I'm all for it, although that might not be the best way to do it.

Well this is the problem with fighting Japan right now.
Look at the AI units circled in white, and the garbage we have defending in red.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-656.jpg

In fact, that' pretty much all Japanese offensive force that I've seen, so it's certainly not that much.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-640AD.zip


550 AD
No war will happen during my turns. We are currently playing depletion roulette and have no iron on my shift. I won't start a war when I have no ability to replace losses. I intended to keep the flow of Musketeers going to get decent city defense.

With how weak our island defense is war CAN'T happen when iron is being shipped. Dijon could easily fall with one warrior for defense.


570 AD
The galley by the Celts serves no purpose at this time. I disband it, as it will take to long to get home.
(IT) Mao gets $20 and tm.
China builds Newton's in Beijing.


590 AD
I have enough cash for an embassy. I establish one with the Byzantines. The have iron (temporarily), saltpeter and horses. The best defender is still a musket. They currently have 4 luxuries.


610 AD
I build an embassy with Germany. They have horses and iron, but NO saltpeter. At some point they bought it as it looks like some muskets are defending. They have 3 luxuries.


630 AD
(IT) Nationalism is official out there as Japan and the Byzantines sign an MPP.

:wallbash: Japan immediately follows with the below. :wallbash:
They

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-657.jpg


==========================


Summary:
NOTHING is moved for 640 AD. We have a very ugly situation on our hands. We need to make a team decision to either attempt to survive 5 turns for peace, or commit to a 20-turn war and waste our GA on troops. I prefer the ASAP war and to complete the buildings.

We can't get an alliance against Japan, but this would be just as effective from the Byzantine. I didn't haggle, but I am surprised how cheap it is.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-658.jpg


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0
New raze credit current: 0

Thank god we only have one turn left of the iron deal, or it would be even worse.
However, note was has already landing on iron island.
All those ships are Japanese!

I was already planning on reinforcing the island and that is why the galley under construction. However, at this point it will have to be suicide galley loading one turn, and dropping on the mountain the next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-659.jpg

Lurker comment: looks like Fukushima really fukushimed you guys over. :mischief: AI doesn't like to leave its orphans behind.

I was in favor of war 15-20 turns ago. Had I played, I probably would have started war with Japan on my turns. We need to be slowing down the leader. We can ally with Byzantines and quite possibly China. Beat on them. There's no time like the present. We're in a no WW government and I'll pick the human against any single AI any day of the week -- raze 6-9 cities or so and see what happens. Use our GA on military and bonk some heads. Infra is of limited value at this point, IMO. Heck, a couple longbows or MDI provides as much happiness as a colosseum, is cheaper, and generally costs less. Plus, it has multiple uses...why build buildings?

We can switch over a number of builds to military and go start bonking some heads. My main question is, have we built enough trebuchets (30?) to keep our casualties to near 0? If not, why not? That needs to be a big build, too.

My vote -- ally and fight for ~20 turns and then immediately declare war on China once our 20 turns vs. Japan are done. If China bails early or our MPP situation changes, maybe change earlier, but definitely start fighting Japan ASAP, preferably even earlier than we did.

Arathorn

I agree on the alliance. We will need it.

We have spent the entire game on Infra. We can afford dedicating our GA to troops.

Well it looks like I got the war I wanted, though not exactly in the way I wanted it. Should be fun.

I got it.

We have spent the entire game on Infra. We can afford dedicating our GA to troops.


We have already built a decent military. I certainly would NOT claim the entire game was on buildings.

We actually are still way short on buildings. We have almost zero churches that are badly needed for happiness. Our luxury tax is way to high. We should be able to get banking soon for another building to complete.


Let's wait for comments from the remaining 2 players.


This will be the last time I run this particular variant. I am burned out on games where people feel we must start wars quickly and get stuck on military actions. This game has frustrated me to no end with the military and fight now attitude it generated.

I must admit I have been frustrated in the other direction. That we won't consider an early military game.

It is a rough variant. As stated I feel it calls for early Military action. Probably best if we let it rest for a while.

In any case I will wait to hear from others.

Out of curiosity did you sign the MPP? If so aren't we committed to the 20 turns?

Out of curiosity did you sign the MPP? If so aren't we committed to the 20 turns?
NO - I did NOT sign the MPP. I just wanted to show the option is available. It looks like I build the embassy just in time.

I must admit I have been frustrated in the other direction. That we won't consider an early military game.
This is exactly why this variant won't be replayed, along with defiance, and several other options.

I find early wars the most frustrating in civ.

If we do not have much danger in our core, I would go for war and ally with China.

If we do not have much danger in our core, I would go for war and ally with China.
We have SEVERAL city with just one tile that we control. There are several spots where Japan can cross with multiple Samurai and attack that turn.

I think this is a very good time to reprint the rules.
We *WILL* lose at least one city barring RnG insanity. We really need to watch if we have the right to build anything.

Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 2.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

Lurker comment: Just my two cents, but like everything in Civ, I think the build vs. war question actually could come down to early game development strategies. I.E. better early game development allows more flexibility later. I learned a lot from this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105345&page=2&pp=20

Was surprised how tight they started. Once I adopted this approach, it became clear that it lets you work less corruptible tiles earlier than the alternative, eventually adding up in a pronounced fashion. This game started out especially spread out. I know this is due somewhat to the variant, but still something to think about.

It looks like we are going to be able to get an MPP with Byzantines and ally China and Egypt in vs Japan. Do we want the MPP?

I am not expecting hordes of Samuri as they have been at war. This is especially true with alliances. Still I am planning to switching over to Military builds. I feel this will be necessary. We need to keep our towns. Research will also suffer for 5-10 turns to guarantee the safety of our towns.

I am guessing the next player will probably have the option to go on the offensive. Razing several towns would help us replace any town that is lost.

Keeping the island town depends on a reg warrior defending vs a Musket. It will probably fall as Lee states. My hope is to limit our Casualites to just that loss. Whether we can do that remains to be seen.

My primary reason for the Alliances is that losing a city is costly for us and I want to keep them. Allies will help with this. Also 20 turns of war does not bother me. We can get in Razes and make up for any losses we incur at the beginning.

-------------------

My current plan would therefore be to go for the Alliances and risk the MPP. Science would be off until I feel we are safe (for upgrading troops). Builds would concentrate on military.

I will play tomorrow in case we want to discuss some more. It seems fairly straightforward to me though.

It looks like we are going to be able to get an MPP with Byzantines and ally China and Egypt in vs. Japan. Do we want the MPP?

The Byzantines WON'T sign an alliance due to the MPP. All total GPT was NO for an alliance. The Byzantines would be our ultimate partner as the draw the Japanese to the other side of the world. China still brings Japan toward us. The best allies bring the AI as far away as possible.


Keeping the island town depends on a reg warrior defending vs. a Musket.
There is a Samurai under that musket. The city is lost. The danger is also losing the iron city.

I was assuming the Samuri vs the warrior would win. The musket would fight the second warrior.

Egypt and China will sign an Alliance. Byzantines require an MPP as you state. The question I was asking is do we want the MPP with Byz. The alternative is to fight them as they have an MPP with Japan.

I think we are saying the same thing here.

If you sign MPP, make sure you do not sign MA until the MPP triggers.

If you do not sign MPP, make sure to get some gpt deal out of Byzantines first, and be prepared to MA with China against Byzantine as well.

The question I was asking is do we want the MPP with Byz. The alternative is to fight them as they have an MPP with Japan.

I think we are saying the same thing here.
Do we really want to fight 2 civs at the same time with our terrible defensive position? The Byzantines have rifles. Do you really want to fight rifles with MDI?

If we are commited to the 20-turn version, the MPP is mandatory IMO.

Definitely agree on joining WITH Byzantines, not fighting against them. They're a key ally (or even THE key ally), as they will pull Japan in multiple directions. 20+ turn wars was one of the reasons I thought we went with Monarchy in the first place. I have no problem with that. China is the other key, as fighting them, too, would be problematic at best and disastrous at worse. Egypt is completely optional, IMO. If they join against us, ally Germany against them and let those two fight each other and build bad blood while we concentrate on nearer foes.

Agreed with Greebley on the CHANCE of keeping all our island villages, as the AI might not attack with a musket, and we darn well better have two warriors in that town by the time Japan moves. If we can survive one turn, we can have more troops there by the second time Japan moves and it MIGHT work out, depending on what the ships are holding.

Fighting rifles with MDI? <Shrug> It happens. Enough trebuchets and/or cannons and it's fine. The odds are actually better for the attacker than fighting infantry with cavalry, and everybody does that all the time. That's the least of my concerns.

Arathorn

If we don't ally then Japan could ally China against us. I don't think we have a choice. Trying to fight Japan, China, and Byz and we will lose too many cities.

I see a 20 turn Alliances as much less risky. It sounds like pretty much everybody agrees. Microbes point with the MPP is a valid one, otherwise the Byz and China may end up at war. I will see what I can do to avoid that.

Preturn: Load up a previous save and see that Japan moves before China. So we should be ok making the MPP and Alliances this turn.

First I rush a Musketeer in our Iron Town and switch the courthouses to Musketeers on the Island.

Then I switch most cathedrals to things that finish earlier sometimes at a minor shield loss in some towns. Lower Lux to 10% and remove all scientists that we have. Only Beascon is far enough along and has nothing to good switch too. It will finish the Cathedral.

One town was building a Cathedral before a Market. Odd choice. That one is easy to switch to Market in 1 turn.

We Trade with Byz to Get the MPP.

We trade China World Map 91 gpt and our 7 gold for Horses, Chivalry, and An alliance vs Japan.

Egypt's Alliance is expensive so I end up skipping them.

We get our Iron back next turn and can build knights.

IBT: On the island, the Samuri kills the Warrior in the town. The musket loses vs the second warrior and we keep the town! A pike (town is on a hill) is attacked by a Samuri and wins. We lose an MDI who is the second defender

650 AD: We pick up Republic from the celts for Monotheism and Feudalism

I boat over a musket to the island. With the 3 muskets built we have one for every city and a warrior on the iron hill. There are also 2 warriors in the town near the Samuri to keep Japan from taking it.

I trade Japan Silks and 71 gpt for Metallurgy.

Cancel our iron deal and we can build knights. I am now building Knights (MM cities to optimize builds - capitol builds knights in 2 turns), Cannon, and Musketeers.

Buying Metallurgy tied up most of our gold. We need better Artillery if we have to handle Rifle defended cities.

IBT: We lose another worker to the Samuri on the island. A Caravel sinks our Galley. We lose another MDI in the same town. However we complete wall this turn.

660 AD: Move Musketeers to defend our towns.

IBT: The only attack from Japan is on the Island. The Samuri loses to our Musketeer and there are no more enemy troops on the island.

670 AD: Almost every town has at least 1 Musketeer. We build our first Cannon and Knight. Kill a Longbow.

IBT: Our second galley is Sunk. However the Japanese ship presense is completely gone.

680 AD: Things are starting to look good now. Thinking about an offensive. Not a peep from Japan.

IBT:

690 AD: Move next to the isolated town. It is guarded by a Musket.

IBT: Japanese have Cavalry [Edit: I keep calling the Japanese Germans. Fixed the wording. If I use German elsewhere I probably mean Japan ]

700 AD: Attack Fukushima. Bombard misses. Two MDI win vs reg muskets. The Knight loses vs a reg Musket.

IBT: Our galley loses again. This is getting annoying. We are 0 for 3 at even odds. These are not Frigates that are attacking.

710 AD: Wait for another Knight.

IBT: A Musket is annoying us.

720 AD: Bombard and Attack Fukushima. We Raze it without loss

Trade Byzantine Dyes and 82 gpt for Mil Tradition (Some deals ended). Hmm... Unfortunately we lost a Lux as well. Since I was unable to complete the Cathedrals we need to hire scientists - about 1 per city.

Trade Mil Trad and 18 gold for Banking (we need banks).

IBT:

730 AD: Advance on Nagoya.

IBT: Rouen is attacked and loses a Muskeeteer and MDI

740 AD: Bombard and attack Nagoya (guarded by Samuri). Lose 1 MDI and Raze Nagoya

IBT: Lose another Musketeer.

750 AD: Head back into town to defend.

Notes:
We Razed two towns and managed not to lose any. Yay! The Japanese cities were defended by Muskets and Samuri.

On Meldor's turn we can start the offensive. I think we want to take enough towns to own our own horses. It would also be nice to have enough Razes so that we can Raze Nanking and get the Lux at the start of a future chinese war.

We are really broke. I overspent and had to use some trick to get us to break even. We are building a bank in the capitol.

I merged a bunch of workers to boost production.

Be careful about lessening defenses in cities. That will attract the Japanese Cavalry.
Gained 4 techs but two were Optional (Chivalry and Mil Trad). We still don't have Astronomy.

For the war if Japan wants to replace his towns, then let him. After they settle then take out the town again. That will build up our town credits.

We probably want at least one town building a bank.

Sorry to nix all the Cathedrals, but It was my opinion that it was necessary. An AI facing multiple opponents will attack the one with the weakest cities. By getting our defense up, we were not attacked (which would have cost us more units and made us more likely to be attacked again). To make up for it, I am hoping we can steal Japan's Incense (and horses).

Rheims needs a worker merged into it. It is at 19 shields.

Marseilles needs 2 more MP.

We have:
19 Workers
8 Warrior
2 Spear
5 Pike
4 Knights
1 Cavalry
12 Cannon
20 Musketeers
12 MDI

[Edit: We have 4 Trebs too]

Only 6 slaves so far.

Kudo's on building the Musketeers before the war began. It saved us a number of towns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95_AD750.JPG

Nice! Paris was a 3-turn musketeer factory and should continue to do so after the bank. We need a settler as we are only one raze away from another city.

However, our GA is going to end before the deals run out I assume, and that's going to be a problem.

I think we will have one turn with all the deal and not GA. If we save up some cash, that will be fine. It is also possible China will end the war with Japan early and we will get our cash back before the GA ends.

Paris can build Musketeers in 2 turns (35 shields). It was ideal for Knights (two turns also) but we can no longer build those). [Edit: or are you talking about when the GA expires?

Nice, Greebley. I knew the island would be touch-and-go, but not losing any cities was HUGE, especially for this variant. I know luck played a role, but good job on getting reinforcements there.

I propose a goal for this war of razing Shimoneski, Satsuma, Ise, and Toyama...not necessarily in that order. On top of Greebley's razes, that would give us 2 city credits, one to go about Satsuma's location (probably one NW or so, to have no overlap with Tokyo, once the border has expanded -- hard to tell exact location without grids) and one to be saved for the China war, as we move east next. If we have extra time, Krasnayorsk would be a good additional raze, but I think those 5 for the ~10 remaining turns would be good.

I expect to war with China on my turn. :devil:

I also imagine OCP (approximately) will be the strategy from here out, to maximize the additional tiles gained from each city. True?

Arathorn

Arathorn,

I am in major feast mode as I am still up in LK87, LK94 and MLDR06. Could we swap on this one and that should give enough room for me to finish the others up? Thanks!

That would probably work pretty well for me. My eldest turns 6 today, but I doubt he'll be up that late. I'd love to take a big old bite out of Japan. Consider the swap request accepted.

Arathorn

Happy B-day to your eldest!

[party]

Given his half-elven blood, he can look forward to many of those to come.

;)

Ya, OCP seems ideal to me. I also like the idea of going for Japan and then China in 10-15 turns. I want to grab those gems and relieve the pressure on our cities.

If we can get both the incense and the gems it will go a long way to relieving our unhappiness problems.

I trade Japan Silks and 71 gpt for Metallurgy.
:confused: I know that CAN'T be Japan. The question is who it is really.


We are really broke. I overspent and had to use some trick to get us to break even.
Depending on the timing of the deals we may be in deep trouble when the GA ends.


Sorry to nix all the Cathedrals, but It was my opinion that it was necessary.
I hated to see it, but I agree 100% with the decision. The problem is we still need them. However, with the stretched economy banks need to be first.

Kudo's on building the Musketeers before the war began.
You can thank the team on this one. I found a lot before I got the turn, and I continued to spread them around on my turn.


I also imagine OCP (approximately) will be the strategy from here out, to maximize the additional tiles gained from each city. True? This is a key to this variant with the qualification of avoiding cultural overlap.


The nice thing on the map is the culture pressure is OFF several of our cities.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Fukushima, Nagoya,
New raze credit current: 2
Number of new cities to build: 0

I think we bought Metallurgy from the Byz.

The overspending is why I suggest we keep a bank build going. I made several GPT deals on the Preturn - 640. We got our GA in 630- 640 IBT. It shouldn't be too bad. We can generate cash when the first bank builds next turn. If we have some savings we will be able to cover that one turn of deficit.

If the celts ever have cash we can trade them tech. Also we might get our money back early if China declares peace early.

I thought Greebley said anything that was Japan should be Germany as far as trades go.

Other way around. I kept calling Japan Germany because that was the big nasty in LK87 - I think I removed all reference to Germany and replace them with Japan. I kept doing it though.

It is unfortunate; I have a tendency to replace one word with another that has similar meaning to me but is wrong in the given context. Even worse I often don't notice it so I can't fix it other than heavy proof-reading. Sigh.

(0) 750 - OK, on the new computer -- seeing how it goes. It should be a bit faster in the interturn...I hope I don't miss anything important going by.

Do a fair bit of minor micromanagement, gain some food here, a bit of commerce there, build a barracks before cavalry in Tours, that kind of thing. Somewhere needs to find place for a settler, too. Actually, Tours is best suited for that, so no barracks and a settler to be produced there. We'll grow back the population rapidly.

(I) Repel two cavs from Japan -- both retreat. Musketeers are pretty tough.

(1) 760 - Borrow money from Egypt (1 gpt for 15 gold) to afford a cavalry upgrade, so that we'll have good forces to go after Satsuma in a couple of turns.

(I) Egypt/Japan embargo us.

(2) 770 - March on Satsuma. Clean up a Japanese cavalry.

(I) Germany/Byzantines MPP and MA vs. Japan. Three Japanese cavs attack our stack by Satsuma across a river. They take a total of 1 hp from defensive bombard, two musketeers, and an elite knight defending. I guess that helps our income a bit, but that's not the way I would've chosen to do so.

Egypt declares on China. YAY!

Egyptians start ToE. BOOO!!!

(3) 780 - Trebs/cannons go 7 for 12 against the 7(?) defenders of Satsuma. MDI defeats cav, MDI defeats musket, MDI dies to sam, MDI dies to sam, cav dies to sam (he started with 2 hps), MDI dies to cav, cav dies to cav, cav dies to cav, cav kills cav, cav kills cav, MDI kills cav. And that's it for me.

(I) Jap cav kills musketeer with defensive bombard across a river without breaking a sweat. Did I piss off the PRNG gods at some point?

(4) 790 - Artillery redlines Satsuma defenders. MDI kills cav, knight kills cav, and we raze Satsuma.

MDI on island kills a dropped-off cav.

(I) Jap cav kills a musketeer, no sweat, but then the second (both regular) dies to our elite knight, giving us.... well, pictures are hard to insert. Giving us our first leader.

(5) 800 - Positioning by Shimoneski. Form the cavalry army.

(I) Lose a musket and MDI to enemy cavalry. Their range is so great, it's hard to cover everybody.

(6) 810 - Cav army kills two samurai, cav kills third, and we raze Shimoneski. It's hard to find two reasonable spots here. There are two good spots, but they overlap a fair bit (near the two ex-Japanese cities). After some deliberation, I decide on a river site with lots of land and good potential, but giving up some good coast/sea squares, including two whales. Rails aren't THAT far away, so whales aren't too valuable anymore.

(I) Lose an MDI to yellow-lined cav. Kill a cav in defense. Celts/Germany peace.

Get Heroic Epic and Military Academy messages. Want to start both -- but I'm not sure where.

Paris can do HE in 6 turns, so gets that. Avignon, our FP site, starts Military Academy.

(7) 820 - Just maneveur. Kill a few Japs, of course.

(I) Jap cav kills an exposed MDI, leaving itself open to counterattack. Elite knight who produced a leader is killed on his way east. I need to learn to count better.
Celts/Egypt ally vs. China. Japan/China make peace, so we lose our horses.

(8) 830 - At Ise, yellowline musket and see a cav. MDI kills cav, cav kills musket and we raze Ise.
Horses cost 64 gpt+ from China. No thanks. We'll try to get our own at that price.

(I) Japan finds 6 cavalry to attack our settler stack, losing one, killing a musketeer, and retreating lots.
Egypt demands TM and 23 gold. They're already at war with China, and would have to go through Mao to get to us. BUT, is a war worth 23 gold? As much as I want to tell Cleo to stuff it, I pay her off.

And thus ends our GA...oh, boy, I worry about revolts coming.

(9) 840 - MPP with Byzantines can be cancelled, saves us 14 gpt, so it is. We are free to make peace with Japan at any time. I'll have to think about that, once some other things are taken care of. Like killing the Jap cav on the island again -- thanks for leaving the MDI there.

We have enough cavs on hand to raze Toyama.

Even after canceling the deal with Theodora, we're at -16 gpt. We have a 72 gpt deal to Mao set to expire next turn, though. Raising lux tax to 30% to put people back to work moves it to -39 gpt. We have 51 gold, so we can do it, but only for one turn (which is all we need).

Japan won't give Astronomy for peace. Why not? We've razed a whole slew of cities. Hmmm.... I guess we go for Krasnoyarsk and Khabarovsk to get us horses before we let them off the hook. They're still the #1 ranked civ according to F8 and have the most land.

Brest formed up in the old Satsuma/Shimoneski area. Needs a lot of stuff, but I start it on walls first. It needs a cultural expansion to be flipproof, but it doesn't overlap any of Tokyo's core 21.

(10) 850 - Once again, our vet cavalry can't kill a regular defending Jap cavalry in the open by Brest. Sigh. We might need to make peace soon just to keep this city. I figured 4 musketeers and a couple cav would be good, but.....

At least, we raze Krasnoyarsk with the army. Khabarovsk shouldn't be more than a couple turns away. I don't know if Brest can hold.

We're at 20 gold but back in the black at +44 gpt.

Right now, we can give Japan 20 gpt with peace and get Astronomy. I have no idea if it's worth it. Depends on whether Brest can hold -- I give it a 50/50 shot or so. Give me better luck and I'd give it a better chance but my 5 defense with defensive bombard against their 6 attack had no shot. Those horses look nice, but getting a city over in the east will greatly lengthen our front with China, who has to be next, I believe.

BTW, Egypt has insane tech -- infantry, ToE building, Steam Power, at least.

Avignon has our artillery stack. It can be used against whoever we go up against next. Gotta be in the east, though, I believe.

Razes: 2 (coming in) + 5 = 7 - 3 (one city built) = 4...credit for one city plus one extra raze. The army's current location might not be a bad place for that city, to get horses and to be on fresh water...but it would require clearing a marsh first.

I would do the peace with Japan for Astronomy and then see about getting horses from them. And declare on China in the next 3-4 turns, once we get that front reinforced a bit.

Arathorn

The army's current location might not be a bad place for that city, to get horses and to be on fresh water...but it would require clearing a marsh first.
We pretty much have to get a native source of horses, so I agree.


BTW, Egypt has insane tech -- infantry, ToE building, Steam Power, at least.
Are we sure this is only 850 AD?
This is really bad as we need to stop Egypt, but you know how much the AIs suck when it comes to infantry vs. infantry wars. And we are still several techs away from even getting to the IA. :(


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 2
New razes from current player: 2 + Satsuma, Shimonoseki, Ise, Toyama, Krasnoyarsk = 7
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to build: 2
Number of new cities built: 1 - Brest
Number of new cities to build: 1

The problem with getting the horses is that we risk losing Brest. Also Egypt looks like it might take the city and we still don't get horses.

Maybe it would be better to make peace and buy horses for 20 more turns (and do the astronomy deal) We can go back to war with Japan after 20 to get horses.

In the mean time we could fight China. Grabbing the Gems should be easy enough and we can relieve the cultural pressure on the rest of our cities.

[Edit: We may also want to build more Cannon in case we need to take on Egypt. Enough Cannon can handle infantry. We could trim their "outlying cities" if need be.

I think we should make peace. Japan is not a threat.

We need to get the top civs fight (Egypt, Byzantines and China). Agree on fighting China.

On the good news front, Egypt and China are at war. That's a good thing. Not much has seemed to change hands.

We can not directly attack Egypt at this point. We need to go through Chinese and/or Japanese lands to get there. A RoP might accomplish this, but.... Alternatively, we could try to organize the world against Egypt, but I'm not sure that would hurt Cleo too much and might just make her strong. Plus, I don't think we have the economic might to really organize that coalition.

My advice:
- Wake the MDI in Brest to kill one last Jap cavalry up there and then make peace, getting astronomy. Don't worry about horses
- Spend 2-3 turns prepping for war on China (getting people into place)
- Start warring on China with existing cavs. It's a reasonably narrow front and they have been fighting Egypt for a while. Goal: Gems and maybe even one of their two horse sources (near their capital, but we're already near/in their first ring). Use the army and artillery stack.
- Add a fair few native workers to Brest to get it up to speed. Change its wall build to temple/library for a border expansion.
- Make the Japan (again) or Egypt decision once we have trimmed China some. Egypt is the big dog, but we don't border her yet. I don't even see "border cities" we could trim at this point.

Arathorn

I agree with Arathorn. China first and then we see whats up with Egypt.

I think I used the term Border cities, but that is not quite what I meant. I meant the cities that were not directly connected to Egypts empire.

I think the horse deal ends next turn? we will need to renew. Perhaps with Japan. If we can trade for incense too, then that would be useful.

Horses deal was tied to the alliance vs. Japan, I think. When China and Japan made peace, we lost horses. We haven't had any for a while. I'm not sure how many cavalry I would've been building if I had the chance, though. Musketeers for defense, banks for cashflow, a couple courthouses, etc. I actually built a fair bit of building infra during my turns, even though we were at war.

Offense can be done slowly and very efficiently with the army and the artillery stack. I see no reason to worry TOO much about horses TOO fast. We have one three-cav army and, while more would be good, it will be enough for now. Another 15 or so musketeers is what I see as the next big need, along with the eternal need for infra.

Incense (and/or other luxes) would be good. Another luxury would probably save us 10% in lux tax, which would be huge. Two luxes might let us turn lux tax from 30% down to 0%. Definitely a good idea! Japan might even have two luxes (incense and fur) for sale.

Arathorn

I finally got a chance to look at the game. Egypt is a run away monster as they are the ONLY civ working on ToE and Suffrage. I think this changes our goals quite a bit. IMO Japan is no longer number #1. It is now Egypt. When the time to fight Egypt comes along we must have as many stronger allies as possible. If we aren't careful Egypt will eat Japan alive.

If we sign peace that should lower the piece cost between Egypt and Japan. We have to pray they sign peace. Egypt has already gained too much territory for my taste.

Our other problem is our economy still sucks, and we have little power to research or buy techs. $20/turn to get Astronomy sounds like a good deal to me. That still leaves us 4 techs from the all powerful rails. We had better have coal with all the jungle we have suffered with.

I don't know how recent our maps are, but the good news is NO signs of railroads in Egypt at this time.

IMHO is it way to early to build military academy. Until we have factories we won't be hand building any armies. I would much rather have another bank. We also need libraries, but we are screwed at the moment for self-research abilities and they will have to take a back seat to banks.

I see it and it is in the queue...The good news is that I am off for four days so I should be able to work my way out of the major feast that always weems to hit when I am up in LK87.

850 AD (0)
Ok, wake up MDI in Brest and kill the redlined Cav. I then check out our ongoing deals and we have nothing to keep us from making peace with Japan. As stated by Arathorn, we can get Astronomy for 20gpt. I add in a WM swap and I can get the price down to 17gpt and 11g. Make it a done deal. Japan has 3 sources of horses and two lux we could get, but they must have a trade embargo as we can trade right now. Seems we can't trade with Egypt either. I agree that the Military Academy is a little premature. Unless we plan on using it for a prebuild, but it looks like we don't have a shot at a wonder anytime soon. I swap it to a Library due in 8, which is when it will grow and need more happiness.
(I) The Egyptians ignore the city with the Horses and it looks like they are going after the Chinese city with all the gems. Rouen Cav->Musketeer

860 AD (1)
Start moving all the troops from the japanese front to the Chinese front. I would like to raze the three cities closest to us to get the gems and maybe the iron, but I don't want to take much more. The Chinese have been hit pretty heavily by the Japanese and Egyptians. I swap Breat to a Temple and start moving some native workers in that direction. Once the settler get built in Tours, it will go back to building workers to merge into our cities to get them up to size. I swap WMs with the Byzantines and there is still no rails in Eygpt, however the Egyptians won't trade maps so we may still be out of date. I would like to find something to trade our silks for before someone demands them away. I would pillage them until we need them, but Lyons depnds on that square.
(I) REally baed news, the Egyptains grab Nanking. We can only hope that they lose it again. Rheims Cav->Market, Chartes Musket->Musket

870 AD (2)
Ok, the troops are in poition to attack Nanking. I would like to trim Strasbourg and Xinjian to relieve pressure on Toulouse. We can't attack Eygpt for 9 more turns due to a 1gpt deal left over for something. Eygpt has deployed workers workers around Nanking so they don't see a threat of China taking the city back. I try toget the Chinese to declare by botting their spear on the island, but they back down.
(I)Lyons Musketeer->Musketeer, Tours Settler->Worker, Poitiers Aqueduct->Temple.

880 AD (3)
OK, finish moveing the troops to prepare to start the war to raze the two Chinese cities.
(I) Dang, China and Eygpt sign a peace treaty, that means they won't be getting Nanking back. We will just have to take it frorm Eygpt after we trim the two Chinese cities. Tours Worker->Worker, Dijon Courthouse->Market.

890 AD (4)
The Chinese don't want to give us a free tech, so I declare. The Cav army takes out two rifles and a spear from Strasbourg. Another Cav takes out the remaining Longbow and we raze Strasbourg. We get four workers from the deal. I snag two more exposed workers but leave a third alone as I would have to expose a precious Cav to get it.
(I) Germany and China embargo us, no big deal Germany was the one I was worried about demanding our silks. However, the fact that Chinese Cav have enterd our lands doesn't make me happy. It looks like they are after our silks. Tours Worker->Worker, Toulese Musketeer->Musketeer

900 AD (5)
I would rather take the first shot at the Eygptian Cav if she is going to declare, so I demand they leave and she backs down but the Cav don't move. I hate that. I move the army back to heal and move the cannon up so they can hit Xinjian when the army is ready. I also move a third musket into Lyons and a couple of cannon, in case Eypgt is headed there. I then move our slaves out of their reach. I get Brest up to size 6.
(I) The egytain Cav change directions and fo after Avignon instead of Lyons and yes they declare war on us. We repell the Cav at Avignon. They kill a musket guarding the new Chinese salves and take them but they don't disband them so we can recover them. They then get another retreat of their Cav at Toulouse. They then move in a bunch of troops. The Chinese send one rider that dies at Toulouse and look to be sending in the pillagers. Rouen Musketeer->Musketeer, Grenoble Couthouse->Market

910 AD (6)
Snag back the four slave from Egypt and then kill off their 3 hurt Cav. I move the workers back to safety. The cannon bombard and then kill of a Chinese rilfe. Our Cav kills the redlined rider and promotes. I check to see that Germany still has an active MPP with Byzantines so I pay Germany, WM 6g and 17gpt to ally against Egypt. I can't pull in Japan as they still have a trade embargo against us. Hopefully the Egyptian won't buy them in on their side before we can swing a deal. We get 82gpt and dyes back from the Byzantines nest turn and that should help bring the Japanese in on the deal. Right now there are two Cav Egyptian Cav that seem to want to hit Avignon and a Cav an MDI that are haeded in the Toulouse direction although that can change. I forget hitting Xinjian for now and pull the cannon back as the Egyptians have a large stack of slow units headed our way. It has 2 warriors, 2 pikes, 3 muskets, 1 MDI, 1 Longbow and 1 Crusader. Besides, we will get to raze Nanking after all. The Chinese do look to how a pike and longbow that will move in next round. I use one of our MDI to kill the pike and then cover it with a musket. The rest of the MDI are moved back to Toulouse. Our army will be back to full strength next turn as well. Brest is now up to size 7 and the time to get its temple dropped from 55 turns to 13.
(I)Dang, the Egyptians bring the Byzantines in against us. Hopefully they won't be albe to reach us once the MPP with Germany kicks in. Eygpt buys and embargo with the Celts. I would guess the ally with China against Germany becasue we get the declare. Do we not have an embassy with the Celts? The Egyptians kill a musket in Toulouse and Avignon but the other a Avignon dies. Teh Egyptian then start retreating the slow units back towards Germany. Our Musket holds off the Chinese Longbow before being killed by a rifle. Paris Herioc Epic->Musketeer, Tours Worker->Worker

920 AD (7)
Kill off the two Egytian Cav but don't get a leader from the elite victory. Our cannon then hit the Chinese Rifle adn we take it and the lngbow underneath it out. I move the cannon and the army back to raze Xinjian as I want to have time to let those astacks of Egyptian slow units leave the Nanking area.
(I) We get a couple of bombardments. It looks like the Egyptians are headed for the island. The Chinese have a couple of ships headed somewhere. Orleans Bank->MDI, Lyons Musketeer->Musketeer, Marseilles Bank->MDI, Avignon Cathedral->Musketeer, Basancon Bank->MDI

930 AD (8)
Nothing to kill this turn, We set up next to Xinjian.They will take peace and give us Physics for 57gpt, lets see what the discount is after we raze another city. The MPP with Germany and the Byzantines still hasn't kicked in yet. The Germans are losing town to the Japanese and not the Egyptian, the Egyptians need to do their part. Fortunately for us the Byzantines are also at war with Japan so we shouldn't see many of their troops. Unfortunately that Japanese want 50gpt to ally against Egypt.I upgrade the warrior on the island to MDI and the one in Marseilles. I also send a musketeer towards Marseilles and the Chinese ships.
(I) The Egyptian ships near the island only bombard us. The Chinese land a rifle and two Longbow at Marseilles. Tours Worker->Bank (All the cities are over size 7 and it can use the infra for now), Chartes Musketeer->Musketeer, Amiens Market->Library.

940 AD (9)
We manage to taek two points each off the vet and 2 reg rifles in Xinjian. Our army goes to 4HP taking out the first two (but gets an internal promotion) so I use a vet Cav to take out the last redlined rifle and our elite cav to take out the Longbow. Xinjian is razed for 5 more slaves. I then use an MDI to take out a nearby Longbow and then open negotiation with the Chinese. We take Physics for peace and 49gpt so razing Xinjian saved another 8gpt and gave us another raze credit. It also completely removed any culture pressure from them on Toulouse or Chartes. A musketeer spy near Nanking show that it is defended by a regular infantry on the top. We will have to bring the cannon.
(I) China and the Byzantine embargo us. The Byzantine land a couple of rifles on the island. The Egyptains land a guerilla and they also move a vet infantry into Nanking.. Paris Musketeer->University, Cherbourg Market->Musket. We get a place expansion.

950 AD (10)
Both MDI on the island die trying to take out the Guerilla. I can' do anything about the rifles. I hope the muskets hold. Start moving Musketeers to help out and Upgrade another warrior to MDI. Start the cannon and escorts moving towards Nanking. The army should be healed next turn and we can go get those gems. I haaven't done any trading this turn, not that we have many choices left. I would like to see us be able to trade with the Japanese but it hasn't happened yet. I would also like to see the Byzantine/German MPP kick in against Eygpt but that hasn't happened yet either. Teh settler is waiting in Avignon. We also have another credit so we might look to see where we want to put the next city. Of course, we might have to replace one on the island.

Here is a shot of the new Chinese border

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ChineseBorder.JPG

Nanking seems our best first target. We can now grab those gems with us at war with Egypt.

I wouldn't mind buying Japan into the war against Egypt. A longer war with Egypt will slow them down and I DON'T want Egypt to Buy Japan against us - though this doesn't help us with Byz buying Japan.

Alliance is probably expensive though - Maybe too expensive. I would like to get to Rails. So maybe hoping that Japan is not brought into the war and waiting for peace would be better - though I do want to capture or better replace Nanking first.

If we do go for peace, do we want to self research? We can't get a 2-fer so I see no real advantage of buying over self research. We just give the AI's the money to research faster.

I didn't think the 50gpt was worth it to get Japan into the war with Egypt. They are at war with both Germany and the Byzatines, so they are cusy right now. I would expect the MPP for Germany to kick in at some point.

(I) The Egyptian Cav change directions and fo after Avignon instead of Lyons and yes they declare war on us. Unreal - the civ we are in the worst position to fight starts a war. We get a war of cavalry vs. infantry without good artillery support. :(


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 2
New razes from current player: 1 + Strasbourg, Xinjian
New raze credit current: 3
Number of new cities to build: 1 (left over) + 1 new
Number of new cities built: 0

I got it.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 2
New razes from current player: 1 + Strasbourg, Xinjian
New raze credit current: 3
Number of new cities to build: 1 (left over) + 1 new
Number of new cities built: 0


Am I the only one confused by the above numbers?

Can't we just have ONE simple number: the raze credit?

What's this number? Is it 5 or 8?

It is six, we can build two cities.

preturn: looks like we fall behind in tech again.

We are setting lux to 30 which is totally unnecessary. I lower lux to 20 and hire one scientist. I raise sci to get Magnetism in 20 turns. Also find some specialists to fire and Magnetism in 19 turns.

IBT Byzantine and Egypt fight on our island, a rifle loses to guerilla and another rifle kills it.

Egypt MA with Japan against us. They just couldn't wait. This could turn out ugly. Egypt completes ToE and starts Hoover. I wouldn't be surprised to see tanks soon.

960AD: move cannon to Nanking.

IBT Byzantine rifle dies to our regular musketeer. I have to sign an RoP with China. China starts Universal Suffrage.

970AD: IBT Byzantine and China sign MPP and MA against Egypt. Byzantine and Celts MA against us. For a moment I thought it was China. :lol:

China declares on Japan. Japanese cav dies to musketeer. Some Byz-Egypt-China naval fight. Celts declares on China.

The next screenshot shows how crazy the world is.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-980AD.jpg

980AD: We can lower lux to 10 and Magnetism in 12 turns.

Cannons are really ineffective but we redline the two reg infantry in Nanking. Our army captures it (it's size-1 and has perfect location, so I keep it). I probably should have razed it as the extra foreigner still adds to flip risk.

We have gems online. I hire 3 specialists without hurting shields in our core and now we can get Magnetism in 10 turns.

We now can make peace with Egypt, but I don't see the reason to do so. Really. She is at war with everyone and we'd better just keep the war happiness.

It seems Byzantine/Germany has no MPP now.

990AD: Our cav army kills musketman and sam and raze Khabarovsk. We'll soon have our own horses.

We lose an MDI but get a leader from elite cav killing a rifleman.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-990AD.jpg

I rush temple in Nanking.

IBT Another Jap cav dies. Byzantine and Egypt land stuff.

1000AD: Byzantine agrees to talk too. We kill its rifle. The Egyptian landing on the island is more troublesome - 1 cav and 1 musket.

IBT some Byzantine cavalry show up in Japanese territory. Aren't they at war or they made peace? A Jap cav retreats from our musketeer.

1010AD: I make peace with Byzantine by 80g. Lux back to 10.

IBT we lose two musketeers to Japanese but kill one cav.

1020AD: Have to raise lux to 20.

I have to decide which city to go for next. We can go south to raze 3 Japanese towns which have horses and wines, with the problem of being difficult to defend, or we go to hit Japanese core. I decide on the latter.

IBT Egypt completes Universal Suffrage and declares on Germany.

1030AD: Cav army kills 2 infantry in Tatung but there is a third. It drops to 5hp and has to heal.

Lose MDI but kill musket on our island.

We connect our horses and start to build cavalry. We desperately need them to defend off landings.

It really sucks that we cannot trade resources. We have extra iron that Germany needs. :(

Note: There are a couple of cavalry each turn to attack Brest or Amiens.

In the north, we have our cav army + 2 cavalry + stack of cannons. That should do it but we could add more musketeers and cavalry.

I would like to hit Japan really hard this time so we could use it as our trading partners. Besides the horses/saltpeter inside its territory it still has extra source for each. The other saltpeter is close too, so we should aim for that.

If you are bold, notice the Byzantine rifleman is still inside our territory, and if you like you can buy ToG and ask it to leave at some point. But Egypt is the real runaway AI.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1050AD.jpg

LKendter (currently playing)
Suffering from a severe feast and running out of time to complete COTM10.

Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Khabarovsk = 1
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 - Nanking = 1

Did we use a leader to rush a temple in Nanking???????

Do we have two cavalry armies now?

With the resources, can we figure out who Germany embargoed us with? If so, if we get Germany to declare on them, we can then trade them stuff. Might be worth looking into.

The Japanese incense has to be a high priority, as does a native source of horses. Gems was our third luxury (I believe), so incense would make 4, which would greatly ease our happiness burden, which would be nice.

Since Microbe cut out the mini-maps, there's no way to get a sense of how the world is doing against Egypt. Is Cleo growing/shrinking/staying the same? We really need to make life tough for Egypt, as they are easily the biggest threat. That might mean encouragaing peace, not war, if Egypt is too strong.

Arathorn

Did we use a leader to rush a temple in Nanking???????


Well it sounded like that didn't it? :rotfl: Seriously, how silly that would be?

With the resources, can we figure out who Germany embargoed us with? If so, if we get Germany to declare on them, we can then trade them stuff. Might be worth looking into.

I don't know if everyone reports embargos. If so, go back and read the logs. But if two guys are at war with us and sign embargo maybe we don't get the notice.


The Japanese incense has to be a high priority, as does a native source of horses. Gems was our third luxury (I believe), so incense would make 4, which would greatly ease our happiness burden, which would be nice.


We already have a native horse source. But this town could be attacked by Egypt cavalry in one turn so please send some reinforcement or cut the road.


Since Microbe cut out the mini-maps, there's no way to get a sense of how the world is doing against Egypt.

She is not shrinking. She has infantry, and you know AI can't handle that too well.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Khabarovsk = 1
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 - Nanking = 1

Actually, I founded another town on the horses (did I forget to mention?), so I think we cannot found more cities..

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: 0 + Khabarovsk = 1
New raze credit current: 1
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 - Nanking, Horse City = 0

I don't know if everyone reports embargos. If so, go back and read the logs. But if two guys are at war with us and sign embargo maybe we don't get the notice.Go to the trade screen, select the 2nd (middle) unsed tab. Select embargos, and it will show you the pairs that have embargos against us.

I have no intention of running another one of these in the near future. However, I do agree the count issue is a headache. The simplified rule for FUTURE games is suggested below. The reason for the convoluted count is what was in italics.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.
IS REPLACED WITH:
If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1150AD.zip


1050 AD
Egypt and Japan will talk. I think continuing to fight Japan is a waste of time. Egypt is the run away civ. Any focus outside of Egypt gains us very little.


1060 AD
Kagoshima is razed for $0, 2 workers, 2 catapults and 1 trebuchet.
I give Japan $10 to save 3 turns on Magnetism.
This ends the Japan and Egypt trade embargo.
I ship Japan our spare Silks for wm, $16 and $13/turn.


1070 AD
(IT) I nervously watch two Egyptian troops convoys float around the iron island, but nothing lands.


1080 AD
I end the phony war with the Celts and get $4.
(IT) The Egyptian movement patterns really look like the want to land, but again nothing happens. I don't want to deal with infantry on the iron island.


1090 AD
(IT) The Byzantines and Celts sign a peace treaty that is immediately followed by the Celts declaring war on the Byzantines. :crazyeye:
This had to be MPP tripped.
The China and Germany trade embargo ends. :dance:

Egypt lands 2 infantry on the iron island. :cry:


1100 AD
I ship Germany iron, dyes and gems and get Theory of Gravity and $55 in return. We are getting closer on the tech picture as Germany and Japan lack Steam Power.

Buying isn't practical at this time as is would require 0% luxuries and I don't know if I would get any GPT from Japan or Germany. I do plan to check every turn. I hope a turn or two of research will be enough to make the difference.
(IT) China and the Celts sign a peace treaty.
Our Musketeer kills one of the attacking infantry. The other one dies, but the infantry drops to 1 hp.


1110 AD
The newly landed cavalry kills the 1 HP infantry. The latest iron island crisis is solved. The trouble is more Egyptian ships are sailing around the island.

I can now get Rails with only dropping luxuries to 10%. I am surprised one turn of researched helped that much. I was expecting at least 2 to 3 turns of research
I get a discount by including an embargo against Egypt. IMO we should embargo Egypt the rest of the game.
$446 and $198/turn go to China for Steam Power.

We have one lousy coal source. We can now call it the iron and coal island. I already have 2 more muskets heading that way, and based on it having the ONLY coal in our empire even more will go that way.
I make the deal a 2 for 1 and give Germany Steam Power for Medicine, $55 and $8/turn. Getting Medicine from Germany shows me something totally unexpected. Germany already has Sanitation, but lacks Nationalism. That is a very odd thing to see.
It turns into a 3 for 1 deal as Japan is in the same situation as Germany. I give Japan Steam Power for Sanitation, wm and $10/turn. We are in NO position to build hospitals at this time due to the misery situation, but having the option is a good thing.

Everything we have left can't get us incense. I have to hire a ton of temporary specialist and clowns. I also swap library builds away as no self-research can occur in the next 20 turns. The lack of churches really hurts right now as the cities with churches need no specialist.

Our economy is trashed with $24/turn to spare and $55 in the bank. Rails are one of the only techs I will do that for as getting a military rail-net will do wonders for the wars.

I sign an embargo with the Byzantines against Egypt. We really want keep resources and luxuries out of the hands of the tech leaders.
(IT) The embargo from the Celts and Egypt ends.
Germany and Japan sign a peace treaty.

The Celts start a war back up due to the MPP with Egypt. I can only guess it started as I have units in Egyptian territory.


1130 AD
The single cavalry landing on the iron and coal landing is destroyed.
Well it is clear how we can catch up on tech. We need to raze some Egyptian cities for the booty!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-673.jpg


1140 AD
Rennes is formed and we claim luxury #4 of furs. This breaks the OCP goal of the cities, but I wanted those furs impossible to pillage by settling ON the furs. Now it is time for the joy of firing a lot of clowns and specialist. ;)
(IT) The China and Byzantine trade embargo ends.
The stupid wars continue as the Celts declare on China.

==========================


Summary:
Our best hope for tech is that Germany continues to lack iron. That is what setup the trading rounds that netted 4 techs.

Keep building up troops, including cannons, one the iron and coal island.

This sounds really crazy, but we need to start INCREASING our worker force again. We have a ton of lands to rail at this point. With being industrious natural workers are better then the free ones. I already peeled a couple of workers out of cities with full food boxes and we need to keep that going.

IMO the Egyptian war can't stop until we see a tank. They are still the #1 threat with having Hoover, Smiths and being the tech leader. In addition, razed Egyptian cities will give us the cash to get caught up on tech quicker. Did I mention they are the #1 culture win threat? Once we are up to infantry and artillery they may fund the massive upgrading effort.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck? - skipped other games today due to flu)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 1
New razes from current player: 1 + Kagoshima, Tatung,
New raze credit current: 3
Number of new cities to acquire: 1 - Rennes = 0

Some pictures from the front:
This is the coal and iron island. The coal is hiding under Cherbourg. You can see the start of rail-net.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-674.jpg


This is the current front with Egypt. The cannon SoD is hiding under the forward cavalry army. Greebley gets to decide on the next city to attack. Abydos is more of a core city, but probably is better defended. The second cavalry army can come of guard duty of the worker stack next turn. Most of the workers should be freed up to go to the interior to continue to build the rail-net. I like to hide very large worker stacks under armies to avoid risking any possible loss.
I have been ONLY attacking with one of the two armies. I refuse to risk both armies getting weak enough to be attacked and losing the large cannon stack. That would end our war making abilities.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-675.jpg

Good news:
- We have Steam Power and are up to the Industrial Age.
- We have Coal, so we can rail!!!
- Twofer/threefer possibilities with techs (thanks Germany and Japan). We need to continue to take advantage of those.
- Minimal rails in Egypt -- no rails will slow them down.
- A fourth luxury! That's worth a church in every city and probably cost less shields than 160*our_number_of_cities. A fifth lux will solve happiness for most cities for a LONG time.

Bad news:
- At least one railroad in Egypt -- they either have coal or got it for a while -- danger might be mounting.
- Trashed economy again, with factories still not available. (Mind, I agree it was worth it for rails but factories are also HUGE.)
- Not enough workers (but nobody ever has enough when rails come along). I suggest following Lee's start and stripping workers off full-size cities with full food boxes. After rails, they can merge into our new towns to get cities quickly and/or into metros after we make time to build a few hospitals.

Other random thoughts:
- Remember that factories require iron, so don't trade away our last iron to get Industrialization. It's not worth it.
- We get the same gold for each city razed, regardless of size, so I would go for the smaller first, to get us $$$ and more city credits. We do need to hit Cleo's core, but we're not in a HUGE hurry. Starting when we did meant Egypt didn't get too huge a lead to overcome. Cav armies vs. infantry is an OK place to be.

Arathorn

Nice turns. Seems we are on track.

Trashed economy again, with factories still not available. (Mind, I agree it was worth it for rails but factories are also HUGE.)


I agree we really want factories, but our economy has its limits. We are trying to stay in war mode. Several AI civs have already fought us making another war very likely. A military rail-net will do wonders for keeping the war going. We are at least starting to squeeze more shields from our empire and it is getting easier to defend.


Remember that factories require iron, so don't trade away our last iron to get Industrialization. It's not worth it.
A bigger problem is that would stop our ability to lay new rails. In around 15 turns I would trade Germany our spare iron, but we can't drop to none.


I suggest following Lee's start and stripping workers off full-size cities with full food boxes.
We get 2 that way, and at least more due next turn. I would also strip that in cities that will grow and hire a specialist. Rails are much more valuable then a scientist or clown.


We do need to hit Cleo's core, but we're not in a HUGE hurry.
I am not so sure. We don't know how close tanks are, and that would END our fighting ability until we reach infantry.

I got it. I have one game to play before this one.

We get the same gold for each city razed, regardless of size, so I would go for the smaller first, to get us $$$ and more city credits.

Arathorn's comment about all cities razes generating the same amount of cash didn't feel right. I set up the below contrived scenario.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-676.jpg

Note the amount of gold if I take Thebes first:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-677.jpg

Note the amount of gold if I take Memphis first:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-678.jpg

The size of the city very much matters and taking out larger cities don't just hurt Egypt more, but the line our pockets better.

Thanks, Lee. I wonder what the exact formula is. Maybe I should research that.

Arathorn

Heres a theory. You count Town as 1, city as 2 and Metropolis as 3. Add up the total for the empire.

If Thebes and Memphis were the only 2 cities (I don't think they are) then you would get 1/4 the gold from Thebes and 3/4 the gold from Memphis.

Lee, is there another city that is the capitol? If that capitol was size 1, the AI had 10 gold. Then 1+1+3 = 5 and memphis would be worth 10 * 3 / 5 which is 6 gold which isn't the case. If the capiol counted as one more then it would work.

A town would be 1/6, so 10 * 1/ 6 = 2 rounded off.
A metropolis would be 3/6, so 10 * 3/6 = 5 gold.

This is all pure speculation on very little data. Easy enough to test though.

Another example to help clarify:
If you had 3 towns, 4 city, 2 Metropolis, and a Metropolis capitol you would get:
3 * 1 + 4 * 2 + 2 * 3 + 4 = 21

So each town would be worth 1/21 of the total gold.
Each city would be worth 2/21 of the total gold.
Each Metropolis would be worth 3/21 of the total gold.
The capitol would be worth 4/21 of the total gold.

------------------------------------------------------
Note the above is pure speculation so don't take it as fact unless someone proves it. There is a lot of guesswork here. It wouldn't be too hard to set up and test though.

[Edit: I am starting to play now...

Preturn: I investigate whether stealing techs is more cost effective than self research. Stealing from Japan is about 1/2 the cost. Since without the Intelligence Agency we have 1/2 chance of success (more or less), it seems either way could work. Buying is probably about the same too. I think I will save cash for greater flexibility.

IBT: 4 Cavalry attack Rennes. Lose a Musket
Memphis completes Hoover.

1160 AD: Heavily fortify Rennes. Start backbuilding the Rail network. The attack stack head toward Abydos.

IBT: Japan and China sign peace.
Egypt declares war on the Japanese.

1170 AD: Raze Abydos for 585 gold (size 9) netting 4 workers. The Army and Cavalry go after Anyang and I Raze Anyang with the loss of 2 Cavalry. Army that attacked retreats to a town with barracks to heal.

Egypt is fighting everyone on our continent (so not the Celts).

It turns out the cost to buy is more than the cost to research, however we have more money making buildings than science.


1180 AD: Move stack toward Stuttgart.

IBT: Watch the Japanese take a Egyptian Town.

1190 AD: Raze Stuttgart
Build Strassbourg

There is a trade opportunity here I cannot pass up even though it risks war with the Byzantines.
Steal Electricity from the Byzantines.
Trade Electricity, 5 gpt and 95 gold to Germany for Industrialization
Unfortunately, I can't do the final part of the deal I saw. Electricity and Industialization with all our 60 gpt does not buy us Nationalism.

Japan does have Incense now, so I do a trade:
Industrialization for Incense, Economics (marginally useful - wealth is worth more), and small change.
The nice thing is we can reduce Lux to 0 and fire all scientists with the incense.

1200 AD: Raze Avaris. Egypt doesn't have coal anymore. Some towns are starting factories.

1210 AD: Raze Vladavodstock. Lose a Cav vs a 1 hp Infantry while doing so.
Bombard and Kill an Island landing (some Cannon were left on the isle)

IBT: Egypt and Germany make Peace.

1220 AD: ROP with Japan

1230 AD:
Raze Yakusk losing 2 Cavalry.
Build New Paris That name is a good sign.

1240 AD:

1250 AD:
Autoraze Bryansk

Notes:

We have an ROP with Japan so defend the towns

I am unsure we hurt Egypt that much with the 7 towns we razed as they were all small. However we did stop them from growing, picked up about 2700 in cash, and 10 or so workers.

Was tired at the end. No real MM for a few turns.

Random Pic of the warzone.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95_AD1250.JPG

Got it. Won't play until tonight, at the earliest, so I can get a bit of clarfification. We're at 1 of 3 razes needed for a new city, right?

Basic plan is to continue thumping Egypt until they're not the biggest threat, even though it probably means continuing to stick cities out into a longer and longer front.

I'll probably also try to sneak in a few factories and probably hospitals, too. And maybe try to move us towards Replaceable Parts, as infantry and artillery would be insanely handy. Cannons and musketeers are good, but we are going to need real defenders again soon.

Arathorn

There is a trade opportunity here I cannot pass up even though it risks war with the Byzantines.
Steal Electricity from the Byzantines.
We get lucky this time. However, a war with the Byzantines really scares me as they also have infantry. I would hate to be forced to stop the Egypt war due to the Byzantines.

I was right that the huge cash blocks from razing Egyptian cities would pay off. ;)


Bombard and Kill an Island landing (some Cannon were left on the isle)
I think some were being built when I handed it over. I would like a pretty healthy stack on the island in case we get a 5 infantry landing.


I am unsure we hurt Egypt that much with the 7 towns we razed as they were all small.
Egypt had dyes as of 1150 AD, but lacks them in 1250 AD. A loss of a luxury really hurts them. :D
With them being fascists, we took away quite a bit of free unit support as even the smallest city gives 4 free units.

@Greebley - I am curious how you picked the location for New Paris. It is crammed tight against a Japanese city, yet to the east of Strasbourg seems wide open.

:confused: There is a lot of Egyptian rifles on the map. Did we raze a rubber source?

==============================================

Right now my biggest worry is weak defense on the border towns. If China gets tempted by us the could easily raze 3 to 4 border towns with cavalry. Once those factories complete we really need to pump out some muskets and get at least 2 quality defenders in the border towns.

I think it is time for military academy in Paris after the factory.

I noticed a sleeping caravel in Dijon - please wake up those cannons in case another landing happens.

The good news is we have hit #1 for number of cities and percentage of world. :D
We still have plenty of work ahead of us. Egypt is still a serious threat and the Byzantines are by no means a wimp.


Basic plan is to continue thumping Egypt until they're not the biggest threat, even though it probably means continuing to stick cities out into a longer and longer front.
Keep hitting them until they are #2 or tanks show up.

However, there is NO reason to create a longer front. We can simply horde the right to build cities for when we can build them in more logical locations.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (I suspect still on flu skip)
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Leftover raze credit from previous player: 0
New razes from current player: Abydos, Anyang, Stuttgart, Avaris, Vladivostok, Yakutsk, and Bryansk
New raze credit current: 7
Number of new cities to acquire: 2 used to build Strasbourg, New Paris
New raze credit: 1

The island has been keeping its cannon.

This reminds me though:
I put some units into a boat thinking to ship over. They should be woken up.

I thought long and hard on the Byz tech steal. If we had ended up at war with Byz, I probably would have allied Japan against them. It was a risk, but we are far enough behind in tech and needed both Electricity and Industrialization enough to warrant it. Also at the time I though we would get 3 techs for it. Nationalism though was more than twice as much as those two techs.

Note that the two cities I place were placed entirely due to Strategic locations rather than desirabilty of terrain or closeness to water. One watches over the gap into Egyptian lands and the other gives us flexibility - it is behind jungle allowing us to attack outward while Egypt has to stop in the jungle to give us an attack.

We don't know if we razed their Rubber, but I have been seeing more and more rifles.

One other question: We could trade for or research Nationalism at full and go for Espionage after Rep Parts. As Lee mentions, going to war is a real risk of Tech stealing. However the cost of buying techs is prohibitive and supplies the enemy with cash, research is inflexible and also more expensive.

Stealing from our enemies would be much better. I think we win in the long run if we do this. What do you all think?

Stealing from our enemies would be much better. I think we win in the long run if we do this. What do you all think?
Once we have spies, the spy agency, and can steal from civs we are ALREADY AT WAR with. That IMO is the best way to steal as there is NO risk. Stealing from Egypt would be great as they give US the money for the steals. :crazyeye:

I think espionage needs to be our next tech target. The trouble is we need the ultra expensive nationalism first, and not via minimum research. The trouble is how many more diplomatic steals can we afford to risk. The failure rate on those is much higher. Do we start researching Nationalism to build to a discount on it?

I would like to get rep parts first. We desperately need a better defensive unit than 4 and artillery would be almost required for those larger cities of Egypt.

I was trying to say the same thing you did. I used "enemies" to mean ppl we were at war with. Not very clear on my part.

Also note that if we get Rep Parts first we could try trading it for Nationalism.

I would like to get rep parts first. We desperately need a better defensive unit than 4.
Actually, the French UU is defense 5 with light bombard. However, I still agree we need a better defender.


Also note that if we get Rep Parts first we could try trading it for Nationalism. I would be surprised. The only times I got Nationalism for one tech is a monopoly tech.

On further thought, I agree we won't be able to trade for Nationalism.

I want Rep Parts for the Military might it gives us and double speed workers. The problem is that we could end up at war with the wrong civ.

If we do go for Nationalism, I would say science at 90 or 100 and try to suplement the gpt lost every turn with cash from city steals.

I looked more into the amount of cash you get from taking a city. I set up a simple example with a town, city, and Metropolis


Each city is given a value of:
2 if it is a Town
3 if it is a City
4 if it is a Metropolis

You then sum the above values for all cities in the empire:
Total = 2 * <number of town> + 3 * < number of cities> + 4 * < number of Metropolis>

Gold = <the amount of gold the AI has>

The amount of gold I got in the simple example was
For a town: 2 * Gold * .75 / Total
For a city: 3 * Gold * .75 / Total
For a Metropolis: 4 * Gold * .75 / Total

The last city of course is all the gold rather than the above formula.

So my test case was to give the AI 50400 gold with the town(size 1), city(size 7), Metrop(size 13)

Taking the town I got 8400 gold
Taking the City I got 12600 gold
Taking the Metropolis I got 16800 gold

This is probably a good aproximation of how much gold you get. To see if it is exact you would want to do the calculation in the game. There may be things that change it beyond town size.

Does size 7 vs size 12 matter. I would be curious what happens with size 1, 12, 13. If you get the exact same results than pop doesn't come into play.

Size 1 vs Size 2 doesn't matter. That was the only one I checked though.

I will try the 1, 12, 13 as you suggest when I have time to see if that is also the same.

I had a chance to try this and I got the same result: Size 7 and Size 12 give the same gold.

[Edit: I grabbed a save from the modern era. The civ had 381 gold, 7 cities, and 3 Metropolis.

Expected gold would be 34.6 but I got 38 gold so there probably is another smaller factor. That means the above should only be treated as an estimation and not an exact amount. The city I tried did have a wonder. I wonder if that added to the value.

The smaller factor is culture. The relationship was non-obvious though.
Wonders don't themselves make a difference.

(0) 1250 - Looking around. Things look reasonably OK. We are pretty thin on defensive troops. And I'm not convinced rails at the front and protecting them is as valuable as getting our core improved, now that we have a military railnet up to our outlying cities.

(I) Very nice to see Japs and Egyptians fighting. They all lose troops. We don't lose any, although we have some close calls. Another landing on "Iron Works Island", but I think I can handle a lone infantry there with troops on hand.

(1) 1255 - Redline lots of enemy troops. Lose about a 1:1 ratio trying to take out rifles, infantry, and crusaders (all with 1 hp) with vet/elite cavalry.

(I) More Japanese/Egyptian casualties, but no French ones. That's good.

(2) 1260 - Maneveur.

(I) Fortified musketeer on mountain with cannon defensive bombard vs. attacking infantry? We lose, doing no damage. And more Egyptian ships approach IW Island. Egyptians also found Buto by our artillery stack, after waffling on its location for a couple turns.

(3) 1265 - "Only" takes 21 cannon shots to redline the single defender (infantry) of Buto. Raze Buto for 371 gold. Not bad pocket change, but it slows our advance in the south. Armies in the north are finally healed enough to move again.

(I) China/Byzantines ally vs. Egypt. Good news. Fortified musketeers on hills with defensive bombard go 1-2 vs. attacking infantry and one on flatlands wins without a scratch. Wild. And now 8 Egyptian ships are by IW island. WHEE!!!

(4) 1270 - At Asyut in the north, first cav army nearly redlines to take out an infantry and I decide to rest before going at it again. Better safe than stupid.

(I) More Japanese/Egyptian fighting. An insane number of infantry attack our artillery stack, taking out two of the three defending musketeers on a mountain. I think I killed 11 attackers, though. Artillery stack is in a slightly odd place to reinforce, though. Might get tricky. Only 3 infantry drop off on IW island, but I'm not sure how I'll take of them. We're short on troops there.

And Egypt captures Smolensk from the Japanese.

(5) 1275 - Asyut gets hit by the first army, which kills the first infantry, losing one hp, and then drops to very few hps to kill the second infantry. Cavalry up there attacks, wins, spawns a MGL, and then I have a heinous choice to make. Asyut is the home to Adam Smith's Trading Company. We were at one credit, plus Buto is two, and Asyut is three. I can keep it. It's got insane borders, but it's only size 3, and once we get some of our culture there, there wouldn't be any overlap. OTOH, it's been drafted at least once, as the last infantry was a conscript (which is why the elite attacked).

Dang. This is tough. What's Smith's worth to us? Free stuff in a lot of cities. We can probably make the flip chance zero or very close to it fairly easily. I think it has to be done. Wish I'd done my tech stuff earlier, but... Keep the city.

It comes complete with marketplace, courthouse, factory, and police station. Three resistors, of course. The army will guard it one turn and then the horde of suppressers will arrive. A check of F8 yields a 5:1 cultural advantage to Egypt, 44698 to 8197. And the Byzantines have pressure, too, until its border expands. Risky move, to be sure. I hope it pays off. Gpt up to 120, though.

IW island cannons stink up the place, so the infantry will get to pillage and maybe move on or attack, but an attack will never get a city.

Safe steal from China nets Replaceable Parts. But Replaceable Parts, Iron, Silks, Gems, and Dyes gets "I doubt they would accept this." It would take 60 gpt on top of all that to get Nationalism. How ridiculous is that??? I wonder if Germany has it partway researched. Next turn, I'll try to get Nationalism out of Japan with RP. They lack Electricity, so I *KNOW* they don't have RP.

SHEESH! I'm glad I kept Asyut. With all the jungle we cut down...our only source of Rubber is under Asyut. Boy, do I *REALLY* want to keep that now. Japan lacks Rubber, as do the meaningless Celts, but everybody else has a source. Asyut will be critical to our success now.

BTW, Egypt will pay 1300 gold for peace. I don't think it's worth it, but we might want to consider making a short peace with Egypt and shortening our front and building up a bit by taking out China. They're also pretty technically advanced and would make a fine target.

(I) Japan dies and dies and dies to Egypt, but finally kills a bit. We kill 3 infantry for the loss of a musketeer. A few infantry builds are started.

(6) 1280 - I gotta take out one infantry on flatlands without artillery support to free up some lines to the front. First 3 cav all die, promoting it to elite. No damage done. No retreating. Sigh. 4th one kills it without a scratch. All you gotta do is complain, I guess.

I stop our 198 gpt+Egypt embargo deal with China. He'd do the embargo for free, but he's already at war with Cleo and I want the opportunity to war with him if/when we decide we need/want to, so I just let it lapse.

I get Ironclads + 6 gpt + 18 gold + WM from Japan for Electricity. I want to see what RP is worth to him. Well, RP + dyes + silks + gems is insulting for Nationalism. What a joke.

On IW island, the two surviving infantry are redlined. First cav dies, second one wins, eventually. And they're on flatlands. Much glue this turn. On the plus side, we're up to 307 gpt right now. Actually....

I really want Nationalism. I want spies and I can still get value from RP out of Japan now. RP + iron + dyes + gems + 60 gpt to Germany for Nationalism and 12 gold. It hurts, but.... Oh, but...heck, Japan doesn't have Communism, Espionage, or anything useful for RP. Burnt again. At least we got value from our iron, but....

I should've trade with Japan first. Germany has things beyond Nationalism. Bother.

Re-MM cities to take advantage of new specialists. And I draft from a couple cities with full food boxes that can handle the happiness penalty (Paris, Rouen, Toulouse). These guys are earmarked as MP or flip preventers, but more troops are quite valuable right now, for whatever purpose. Darn road to Asyut is still semi-clogged, though.

(I)Japan/Celts make peace. So what? Japan continues to make glue. Cleo wants straight-up peace. I decline, of course. We get the Pentagon message. I'd like to build it, but I'm not sure where. Paris is on MA now, having built a Coal Plant, too. Asyut resistance ends. Temple will be rushed.

(7) 1285 - Raze Edfu in the north, between Strasbourg and Asyut. Another 331 gold. Used an army. Asyut gets its temple rushed.

(I) Germany/China ally vs. Celts. Germany drops a few cities that are really going to mess up our communication lines. I wonder if we could convince Egypt to raze them for us (by allying with Germany vs. Egypt).

What happened to 8? I dunno. I got off in years somewhere.

(9) 1295 - 13 hp cav army dies to 2 hp infantry in Smolensk. Ummm....well, that sucks. Now what?

Front is getting ugly. Egypt rolls a flak cannon into view. They will be bombing us from the sky soon. A couple more cities and then I think it might well be time to turn on China. Would cost 480 gold to get Germany to declare on Cleo. If we keep going at Cleo (might be wise since she's still the leader), I would definitely do this, just to let Egypt raze some annoying German cities for us.

(10) 1300 - Well, we're in a position to probably raze Smolensk and Hierancompolis next turn. Asyut's borders should expand and it'll become safer for our people to live there. It's already been starved to one Egyptian.

Current credit: 1 raze

Arathorn

Asyut is the home to Adam Smith's Trading Company. We were at one credit, plus Buto is two, and Asyut is three.

After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one.

A replay is required. Note the key word of *after*. We acquired another city after only 2 razes. I can't count the "razing" of Asyut as the right to capture Asyut.

:bump:

Due to lack of reaction to the replay request and rules violation.

I don't like replaying if we can avoid it. For example, I would rather penalize ourselves. Easy to do in this game. -3 or -6 razes would work (putting us at -2 raze count or -5 raze count). Just a suggestion. I will go with the replay if that is what Lee wants.

We never lost a city, so I feel it is OK to swap to the 3 version of the rules. This will greatly simplify the razed city count.



Raze Three to Dominate the World, version 3.
This game is a normal game until we can't add another city to the empire during the expansion phase. Any new city must connect to the empire, and it must claim at least 12 new tiles.

After the expansion phase is over, the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

I don't like replaying if we can avoid it. For example, I would rather penalize ourselves. Easy to do in this game. -3 or -6 razes would work (putting us at -2 raze count or -5 raze count). Just a suggestion. I will go with the replay if that is what Lee wants.
Not a perfect solution, but we do pay a penalty for violating the variant rules. If it happens again the penalty will be more severe.


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor (I suspect still on flu skip)
Arathorn
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +1
Razes from current player: Buto, Edfu +2
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: -3 (Illegal capture of Asyut)
Raze credit spent: capture Asyut -3
Raze credit at the end of the turn: -3 (Yes, we now need six razes before the next city)

I interpreted that rule quite differently. Actually, I think we have different meanings of raze/capture. To me, once the defenses are destroyed and the player is deciding what to do with the city, that's when the original city has lost control, so it's been "destroyed". At that point, whether the player chooses to raze or capture, the count has been fulfilled. That distinction was not at all clear to me.

I have no intermediate saves. I rarely save mid-SG turns when I can do them in one sitting. It would involve a full 10-turn replay. With the extra knowledge available, I'm sure I (or anyone else on the team) could make significantly more progress tech-wise and military-wise in the same 10 turns. I think replay is a bad option.

As for -3 vs. -6 or what the penalty should be....that's up to Lee. His game, his rules, his decision. How about abandoning Asyut (equivalent to -3) and removing any partial raze credits (1) from our pool? Just an alternate possibility.

Sorry for the misunderstanding,
Arathorn

"After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one."

Not that my opinion matters but doesn't the sentence mean that exact moment "after" taking a city you get the credit to acquire another one?

I interpreted that rule quite differently. Actually, I think we have different meanings of raze/capture. To me, once the defenses are destroyed and the player is deciding what to do with the city, that's when the original city has lost control, so it's been "destroyed". At that point, whether the player chooses to raze or capture, the count has been fulfilled.
That is the whole key of the problem. I don't consider the city razed until rubble is on the spot.

Your interpretation opens a real odd situation of we can raze 2 and capture 1 or raze 3 and build 1.


II have no intermediate saves. I rarely save mid-SG turns when I can do them in one sitting. It would involve a full 10-turn replay. With the extra knowledge available, I'm sure I (or anyone else on the team) could make significantly more progress tech-wise and military-wise in the same 10 turns. I think replay is a bad option.

It sounds like I didn't make myself clear in the last post. Microbe is to play with us taking a -3 penalty for the mistake.

"After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one."

Not that my opinion matters but doesn't the sentence mean that exact moment "after" taking a city you get the credit to acquire another one?

It said "raze", not "take/capture". If you "take" a city, you didn't "raze", so it doesn't count as a credit.

I got it by the way.

Gotcha. My bad.

I am back but I will wait for my next turn around the pike...

preturn: Egypt is resourceless, cool.

IBT Byzantines demand TM+38g, sure thing. Celts and China make peace. Germany kicks us out.

(1)1305AD: our army redlines but we kill 3 infantry and a flak, losing one elite cavalry and raze Smolensk for 322g.

Cannons redline 1 infantry and 2 flaks and we raze Hieraconpolis and gain 2 workers+333g.

I sign RoP with Germany. It turns annoyed.

(2)1310AD: Japan has Espionage. I exchange RP with it and switch Military Acadamy to IA due next turn.

(3)1315AD: plant spy on Egypt, and steal Sci Meth from Egypt. The reason is I want to steal Atomic Theory next.

Kill a flak and a crusader.

IBT Byz and Celts make peace.

(4)1320AD: Japan's incense deal expired and I renew by Sci Method.

(5)1325AD: Raze Lisht and gain 336g.

(6)1330AD:

IBT Egypt founds a town next to our SoD. :smoke:

(7)1335AD: Raze Pithom and get 310g. Egypt has re-connected its rubber.

I fail to steal from Egypt, but our spy survives.

IBT two new Egyptian settler pairs appear.

(8)1340AD: we build Military Acadamy.

(9)1345AD: Egypt lands two infantry to the island. Propaganda hits Marseilles and causes 20% citizens to be confused.

(10)1350AD: raze Yaroslavl' with the Great Lighthouse.

I establish embassy with China. It's weak with 31 riflemen and 33 guerilla.

Note:

There are two injured infantry on the island, stepping on our iron.

We have two stack of cannons each guarded by a cav army. One stack is next to two Egyptian settlers. For some reason it has not founded any city. Do not bombard the flak/rifle on the settlers, as that might cause Egypt not to found the town there.

We should consider doing some damage to China? It's weak and has good land.

We should have gold for another steal in a couple of turns.

Our next city should found on some luxury. How about 3 tiles SE to Asyut to claim the spices?

Also, after Asyut expands we might just take Byzantine's only iron, and sell back to her. It'll take 59 turns, however.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1350AD.jpg

There are two injured infantry on the island, stepping on our iron.
How did this happen? There should always be a unit occupying that tile. A pillage on that tile would really hurt us.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: -3
Razes from current player: Smolensk, Hieraconpolis, Lisht, Pithom, and Yaroslavl'. +5
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: 0
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +2

1350 AD
I wake up the sleeping cavalry, but all I do is create some glue. I really don't want to lose our ability to lay rails.
(IT) If you want proof that Egypt has been hurt:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-689.jpg


1355 AD
The newly arrived cavalry do there job, and the iron and coal island is clear again.
I really hate phony wars, and sign peace with the Celts taking their world map.
(IT) Japan is insane as they expect us to waste over $1000 to get music theory.
However, Japan is doing a great job of killing injured Egyptian troops.
I wonder how there are all at 1 hp? :satan:

OUCH - our spy is Egypt was captured.


1360 AD
We have really hurt Egypt, as they will give up Corporation. However, until I see tanks or bombers I am not stopping the war. The Egyptian military force is about the same size as our according to our advisors.

China took Novgorod from Egypt. This should keep China fighting them longer.

Newly formed Busiris is auto-razed for $189.
(IT) The silly wars continue as the Celts declare on China.


1365 AD
New Orleans is formed. This is actually in a gap in the core near the Japanese border. The south is way too crowded to build a new city right now. I merge the city up to size 4, and the temple is due in just 9 turns.

Not only is Egypt modern, but the have a Tow infantry in the field.
(IT) Egypt is positively crazy as they declare war on Germany. I really don't think the AI can play an effective always war.

Marseilles is hit by propaganda.


1375 AD
I had to help out China with laying some railroads, but Tientsin is razed for a lousy $59 and 2 workers. China was probably one to two turns away from capturing it, and I prefer to simple see rubble.

I try to plant a new spy with Egypt and succeed. I try an immediate steal and we steal Atomic Theory. :dance:
I sell Atomic Theory to the Byzantines for $4650 to continue to fund out stealing campaign.
I sell Atomic Theory to Germany for The Corporation, $5, wm. I also get a couple of thrown in techs of Navigation and Music Theory simply because I have the credits.
I ship Atomic Theory, silks and $1300 to China and we pick up Refining.
I ship Atomic Theory and The Corporation to Japan and get Communism.

I then decide to Press My Luck and hope not to get a whammy.
We steal Electronics from Egypt. :dance: :dance:
I sell Electronics to China for Steal and $350.
I sell Electronics and OIL to the Byzantines for Combustion and $1250. The oil was worth over $2000 in the trade.

I decide to again Press My Luck and hope not to get a whammy.
I try another immediate steal and simply throw money down the toilet.
I immediately plant another spy with success.
We have enough money for another try, so once again Press My Luck and we have mass production.

We are one tech from TANKS



FYI - We have *3* sources of Oil. China, Egypt and the Byzantines ALL LACK OIL!
I had a suspicion with Egypt due to no sightings of tanks and bombers. However, the Byzantines being drying is a very nice bonus.


I am going to delay playing my final 5 for a team decision.
IMO we should plan to revolt to Communism. I would need to push courthouses in the core and have a pre-build for the SPHQ available.
I am coming to see Communism as the ultimate government for war. I plan to push this way until the team has some real objections.

I'm in favor of Communism, as long as we have a reasonable SPHQ prebuild, courthouses in the first ring (and courthouse plus police station in the military academy city, probably even a power plant (coal/hydro)), and no real front in danger, as the anarchy can be quite painful.

I would recommend against selling Oil to the Byzantines again. It's hard to tell whether Theo or Cleo is the biggest threat at this point, but I don't think we want to help either of them. Japan and China are nice snacks. Germany is a good ally. Celts are a joke. Egyptians can't win a UN vote (WHEW!) but will probably build it. Biggest threat at this point is probably a Byzantine launch, but Egypt's culture might be a problem.

My $.02, I'd also make peace with Egypt before the revolt, to see if we can squeeze a tech out and to give us a safer anarchy period. Cleo's quite hurt and we might want to consolidate the front with a little Japan or China action before going after the big 2 again (I'd actually vote for Japan at this point, to get incense for ourselves and to get up to Theo's borders for when we need to attack her -- I guess Asyut might do that, though).

Arathorn

I would recommend against selling Oil to the Byzantines again. It's hard to tell whether Theo or Cleo is the biggest threat at this point, but I don't think we want to help either of them.

I agree 100% with you here. I just knew our window to get a lot of trades from the steals were limited. At this point it is purely stealing and a trade will be lucky to occur. I felt 20 turns of Oil to the Byzantines was worth gaining several more techs.

As for the biggest threat, it is really hard to call. I have no question the other female leaders are the threats. The rest of the world is a joke. We are now ahead of some of the civs in tech.


My $.02, I'd also make peace with Egypt before the revolt, to see if we can squeeze a tech out and to give us a safer anarchy period.
At this point it may be peace with Egypt just before the revolt. We do need tanks to make more process against either Theo or Cleo.


Cleo's quite hurt and we might want to consolidate the front with a little Japan or China action before going after the big 2 again...
This is really hard to call. I hate any distraction from the big two. I would like to wrap this one up before nukes come into play. That requires hurting the big 2 as they are the ONLY threats to advance that far.

Don't forget I gave Silks to China, so they are out for 20 turns.

I'm in favor of Communism, as long as we have a reasonable SPHQ prebuild, courthouses in the first ring (and courthouse plus police station in the military academy city, probably even a power plant (coal/hydro)), and no real front in danger, as the anarchy can be quite painful.
The military academy is in Paris. The palace still wipes out all corruption under communism, so that shouldn't be a problem.

I'm suspicious of revolting at this point. We have enough money and pretty much only need 2 techs. I would reserve the right of cash rushing.

Arathorn - Commie
LKendter - Commie
Microbe - Stay Monarchy

At this point I want to hear from the other 2 players.

I don't feel we just need two techs. I want flight, tanks, and mech inf. I would also like to know where to aluminum and uranium is.

However, the revolt isn't about cash flow. It is about productivity. We would get a lot more cities being able to help with Commie.

Add another thought - the unit support with Commie is much higher and we are already paying $37/turn for units. That would probably be zero with Commie.

I will vote for Communism.

I never heard from Meldor. If I don't hear shortly, I will start the commie plan.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1400AD.zip

1375 AD - Continued
I still haven't heard from Meldor, but I have decided to continue the game moving toward Commie.

I find 1 missed trade and send Combustion to China for $1172, $11/turn and Democracy as a throw-in.
(IT) The Byzantines start the UN. I wonder if we have any danger of them winning?


1380 AD
The newly formed city of Kahun is auto-razed for $48.

Since we don't have Wall Street yet, I decide to try another steal from Egypt this turn. I continue to roll well and we can build tanks. :dance:
(IT) An Egyptian spy was caught trying to expose our spy. I am not sure if I have seen that message before.


1390 AD
We auto-raze Athribis just in front of over 30 Chinese units for $21. Egypt just won't stop trying to build a city near those furs.


1395 AD
The Byzantines give us $800 for the iron we just stole from the border expansion at Asyut. I use this money to try another steal from Egypt and we were caught.
(IT) Egypt is also building the UN. I would prefer that they build it, as they are more likely to lose.


==========================

Summary:
We want to build pollution free Hydro Plants where possible. I really hate pollution.

I haven't revolted yet, but I have quite a few courthouses and police stations completing in the core. Greebley can sign peace with Egypt and revolt early during his turns.


Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +2
Razes from current player: Busiris, Tientsin, Kahun, Athribis +4
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: New Orleans -3
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +3

By the time I saw it, my vote didn't matter...

Ok, I got it.

Preturn: Plant spys in Byz and Egypt. Make peace for Flight with us kicking in 115 gpt. Trade Byz for all their cash (as suggested). (careful) Steal Rocketry. Sell Rocketry to Byz for 333 gpt, fascism, and Free Artistery (couldn't get Ambhib or Fission).

Can anyone possibly guess which island our Aluminum is on :lol:

Revolt for 7 turns.

Sell some techs for gpt from Germany and China. Sell techs to renew Incense and get Ivory (celts).

1435 AD: Steal Fission from Egypt. Start the SPHQ. Investigate the cities. UN in 10 by Byz.
Finish planting spies. We now have one with every Civ.

Looks like Japan is the best Target. They are "easy" an no one civ is winning now. I want more cities. The only city to capture is Kyoto with the Pyramids.
Raze Tokyo, Raze Suo

1440 AD:
Raze Osaka, Raze Shatung

1445 AD:
Build New Lyons

1450 AD:
Capture Kyoto

Notes:
We captured Kyoto for the pyramids. I would try to kill off Japan completely so we can keep them.

I chose Japan because it have max defense of 6 for its units (and not very many units either).

We are still caught up in tech excepting amphibious Assault.

Major feast mode engaged...

Would a swap be to your benefit, meldor? I'll have more time tonight than the rest of the weekend, probably. Your call.

Arathorn

Can anyone possibly guess which island our Aluminum is on :lol: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:


Looks like Japan is the best Target. They are "easy" and no one civ is winning now.
Well I felt Theo or Cleo really needed to be the target, but I have to take what I was dealt. My worry is the strength of the Byzantines.


Build New Lyons
At this point we will have to go into as close to OCP as possible. Upping the percentage of land is going to require quite a bit from the new cities after border expansion. We should also consider merging workers into these new towns to let them build a temple faster.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +3
Razes from current player: Tokyo, Suo, Osaka, and Shantung +4
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: New Lyons, and Kyoto -6
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +1

The Byzantines are supplying us with a vast sum of cash. Rather than wait 20 turns to attack them, I went to for Japan in the Interrum.

We also didn't have enough troops for Byz yet. We need to build up more troops. As it was I switched several of the police stations to troop building.

I am not too worried. Provided we keep building troops we will be able to take on Byz.

The pyramids will also help. Too many towns had no Granary.

We also didn't have enough troops for Byz yet. We need to build up more troops. As it was I switched several of the police stations to troop building.
Don't ignore those police stations to long. As we gain cities corruption will get worse and will need the extra level of corruption reduce from the PS.

I got a chance to look at the game. I really find it disturbing that in the age of marines that our coastal cities are naked. I realize that Japan doesn't have marines, but why push our luck? Egypt could easily turn on us and sneak a marine along our coast.

It feels weird to be in the Modern Age and still hurting for buildings. When was the last time you entered the modern age and still haven't build Wall Street? I also notice we are really lacking production boosting hydro and coal plants. Even if we continue to ignore our pathetic economy, our military situation would be stronger if we could pump out units faster.

I noticed good news that for the moment Egypt and Byzantines need Uranium. The odds of the nukes flying are pretty low. :D

I can't believe all the AIs are still stuck in war. Usually someone finally gives in and signs peace.

Arathorn, I had to work late tonight and will be going in to work tomorrow. Please swap and I might have some relief.

Well, I didn't see this last night, but today's actually freed up some. I got it and will see what I can do. Good luck to meldor on all the work and the feast mode.

Arathorn

Thanks, the worst part is that it is someone elses fault. However, the project milestone is a bonus goal for us and therefore, because I did my part ahead of time, I must be punished by picking up someone else's mess. Sigh...

(0) Swap a few city builds and squares around. Mostly, things look pretty good. Checking deals, I see we have a number of deals with 10 turns to go with Theodora. My goal, then, is to eliminate Japan and get us into a position to attack the Byzantines safely by meldor's turn.

(I) Very little of interest.

(1) 1455 - Raze St. Petersburg, clearing the south of Japanese cities. In the north, have to heal and maneveur a little bit. Most builds, BTW, are infrastructure to get us fully up to speed. Some troops, of course, but factories, plants, hospitals, police stations, are some of the primary builds.

Why do we have RoPs? They require us to guard all our cities and our troops have better things to do. Anyway, they're there, so I try to make sure all cities are defended.

(I) Lose a tank.

(2) 1460 - Bombard the heck out of Edo and the raze Edo.

(I) A few Jap cavs retreat.

(3) 1465 - Just maneveur. Large cultural borders and no combat settlers means some slow slogging.

(4) 1470 - Vet destroyer can't take out redlined ironclad. I hope the land troops do better.

Raze Sapporo near the Byzantine front. I think I might replace this city, as it will give us a LOT of squares, another coal, and seems reasonable.

Raze Matsuyama. There's a lot of space around here, too, which might be good for a city. Decisions, decisions. I only have one settler built.

Build New Rheims, near Matsuyama's ruins. We can get a lot of squares with a couple cultural expansions around this area. Soon, too, I hope to be able to merge in a bunch of Japanese slaves to get towns up to cities in a hurry.

(I) Lose an exposed cavalry to Japan.

(5) 1475 - Make some glue at Nara. It's on a hill, but I still wouldn't think redlined rifles would nearly kill a cav army. Oh well. It's still in trouble. Artillery on the move to a couple other locations.

(6) 1480 - Pause in the action.

(I) Theodora demands horses. I want to tell her to stick it, but 300+ gpt is hard to throw away, and our forces aren't arrayed for war now. Will it cause a rep ruination to declare in 5 turns? Probably. But I don't want that war to start. We can always concentrate on Egypt again, who is still the tech leader. I cave.

China offers his world map for no more than our world map and Rocketry! Regretfully, I turn down this wonderful deal. And Egypt and Germany make peace. Nicea of Byzantines completes UN. No vote held, but we should organize a coalition against Theo relatively soon, just to be safe.

(7) 1485 - In position again. Raze Yokohama. Raze Nara. We need/want a city up in this area to take advantage of the spices up here. That'd be another luxury for us. But I still don't have any settlers built. I will take care of that now. For now, I just build a colony on the spices to temporarily give us luxury #7.

(I) Pentagon completes. I will probably be adding fourth units to armies soonish.

(8) 1490 - Raze Hakodate. Japs are down to two cities. Looks like I'll finish them off in plenty of time. Raze Nagasaki. Start sending the troops towards the remaining Japanese city.

Found New Tours up near the spices. It will take two cultural expansions to get it, but we might have time. In the meantime, it's a good square gainer, no overlap with other cities, and can guard a spices colony (which was destroyed last IT).

Note: All tundra with mines on it has been chopped for shields, so there is no need to re-forest them.

(I) Byzantines/Celts make peace. Japan and Egypt make peace (how did Japan pay them off? Who cares?) Germany redeclares on Egyptians. That peace didn't last long.

(9) 1495 - Chop lots of forests. Plant lots of forests. Get some temples underway. One more settler will be formed. I doubt I'll form the city, though, and see if the team has better ideas than my tired perception.

(I) More raze credits for us appear, depending on who our target will be. I'm almost tempted to say Germany at this point, because they have so many annoying settlements AND they're the second-largest civ AND they still don't have panzers, but Egypt/Byzantines probably makes more sense.

(10) 1500 - A huge stack of artillery covered by a couple troops is fortified by Paris. They just had nothing to do this turn.

Leader fishing doesn't pay off. But Raze Izumo and destroy the Japanese. That means Japanese workers can now safely become citizens within towns/cities/metropolises, leading to a great merge and increase in population. That effect dwarfs the Pyramid effect.

I do a lot of merges and some micromanaging. But I pass off with the turn half-complete. I know Lee hates that, in general, but we can declare on Egypt and I want the next player to be able to position troops wisely for that. We're paying the Byzantines horses for another 15 turns. We could declare on them, but it would trash our rep.

I leave a TON of gold for stealing. I upgraded most of our cannons to artillery, so we have a very nice stack of two-range artillery weapons now, easily enough to redline two cities and occasionally three. I also leave a four-tank army, produced from the military academy. I had probably 20+ elite victories, but no MGL for me.

We can roll over pretty much whomever we choose. There are arguments for everybody, honestly. I don't want to commit the team to an action. (Quick arguments FOR each foe. China -- get our 7th native lux (wines), clean up our front and remove final overlap. Byzantines -- co-2nd place, natural next foe. Germany -- annoying interjecting cities, get them before Panzers. Egypt -- get wines, get Hoover, co-2nd place. Celts -- get enough MGLs for insane armies to roll over everybody else.)

Tech-wise, China is just Modern. Byzantines are up Space Flight (a steal would make good sense, because we're happy if she declares). Celts are still late Medieval and a joke. Egypt is up Computers. Germany still lacks Electronics, Flight, and Motorized Transportation from the IA.

Byzantine military scares me approximately zero (and they're the strongest). 53 infantry, 22 TOWs, 5 bombers, but I do have a jet fighter factory set up, complete with airport. 25 tanks, but those will drop easily to artillery fire and our offense, once they send them at us. Egypt is even smaller -- 29 infantry and 17 TOW. Germany 81 infantry, 13 cav. China 56 infantry and a dozen guerillas. Celts have a slew of musketmen (72) plus another 100+ older units. It'd be MGL heaven to invade them.

We have 14 cav, 36 infantry, 21 tanks, 27 artillery (plus probably 40 captured pieces), 4 armies, and 13 TOW. Average vs. Byzantines, so we should crush, if we're smart.

A bunch of cultural expansions are due. We're at 25/34, so still a LONG ways to go to get domination.

Total razed: 9
Total built: 2
Credit: +3 +1 carry-over = 4 (I believe)

The only city I would capture at this point is Memphis for Hoover Dam.

Arathorn

I see it and it is in the queue...

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +1
Razes from current player: St. Petersburg, Edo, Sapporo, Matsuyama, Yokohama, Nara, Hakodate, Nagasaki, and Izumo. +9
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: New Rheims, New Tours -6
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +4

Looking at the game I think our next war should be with the Byzantines. They don't have computers yet making them easier than Egypt at the moment. Additionally, their capital is least accessable. Space ship is a ways away still, but they have space flight. Might as well begin hurting them.

Probably not worth breaking our rep for, but we can steal from them or order them to leave our lands if they enter.

My second choice would be Germany. They have an MPP with China though.

I know I mentioned this last turn, but I am going to keep pushing it until it is fixed. I notice we still have a joke of defense in our coastal cities despite marines being in play. Can we put REAL defense in our coastal cities?

The question of the Byzantines or Egypt next has been answered. It must be the Byzantines as they taking Egyptian cities. At this point the Byzantines look like the only threat in the game.

The Byzantines are the only one with Amph. Assault. We have a spy. I don't recall, but I think they had zero marines. We have some navy now, too, so it wouldn't be trivial to drop marines in on us. Also, pure number of defenders helps with assaults, too, simply because they need to use up an attack. I never felt concerned about attacks from sea.

Arathorn

Got this one started, I will finish it tomorrow and post it.

Sorry for the slight delay. Comcast was down last night so I will have to go home at lunch and post the results.

As a teaser, we went to war with two civs on the same turn but not to worry. Lots of razes, some cities founded.

Question, does this have to end in Domination or can we do conquest? The Chinese are helping out by founding trash cities, but when we go after a Civ at this point, there won't be much left.

Question, does this have to end in Domination or can we do conquest?
Well the title does say Raze Three to Dominate
I really want Domination from this one. We may have to depend on letting the AI build some junk cities for the credits.

We also have the option to raze the Celtic island simply for more razes.


Comcast was down last night so I will have to go home at lunch and post the results.
I didn't realize Comcast was so big that they cover both coasts.

1500 AD (0)
Starting Credit +4 I move all the troops over so we can take on the Byzantines. Once every thing is in place, I attempt an immediate steal and we get it. I take Space Flight. I figure, we can't make two immediate steals in a row, but I am wrong and the only tech I can take is Amphib War. We then sell the Chinese Amphib War for 1023g, 35gpt, wines, and WM.
(I) We get booted by the Byzantines. WLT(Meldor)D breaks out across the land. We also get our last palace expansion. Egypt finishes SETI.

1505 AD (1)
I guess I will settle down and build up the forces. I may amuse myself by taking an island cruise or at least building up a tourist line. Lots of worker movement.
(I)Not much.

1510 AD (2)
The Byzantines still have no tech to steal and we are tied to a deal, so more building of forces.
(I) The Germans and Celts make happy.

1515 AD (3)
Build a city to cover some area (4 - 3 = +1). It will end the German colony and after some expansion, it will end the one the Chinese are making.
(I)

1520 AD (4)
Not much.
(I)We lose the Ivory from the Celts, at least for now.

1525 AD (5)
We decide that the trooops need a tropical vacation, so we send them out for a beach holiday.
(I)Not much.

1530 AD (6)
Our cruise line is approaching the first port of call.
(I) The Chinese plant two cities in the gaps. The are serious raze bait. Why couldn't we get this in the 25K game?

1535 AD (7)
Declare on the Celts (It is the only way they would let us play on their beaches). Ally with the Chinese against them. Hopefully, they will bring Germany in on our side. Double Hopeful that the Celts will buy in the Byzantines. If the Celts buy in Germany, we will have to turn China against them so we don't trip the MPP. Either way, the next "Big Dog" would be a volunteer. Land a Tank army, a settler, 2 infantry and and 10 tanks next to the first Celtic city. They must have just fought off a Chinese landing as I see the mighty Celtic army arrayed before us. Five stacks that are comprised of 4 spear, 4 archer, 1 pike, 1 MDI, 1 Horseman, and 1 Gallic swordsman.
(I)The chinese plnat another gap city and take out one of our Uranium colonies.

1540 AD (8)
Take out 5 Muskets and horseman to raze Agenincum(1 + 1 = +2). We do pick up 5 Celtic workers to help with railing the new city. I then go leader fishing with some tanks while the rest appraoch the next target city. Good news, the Byzantines come up with computers! I do an immedaite steal and get caught! They declare war and the game is afoot. Our agent was caught but got away. Pound and raze Ancyra(2 + 1 = +3). Take out the Byzantine Saltpeter colony. Pound the city of Amorium and raze it.(3 + 1 = +4). Move the troops around the horn for the next target. Size 11 Septum is pounded and razed(4 + 1 = +5). We get an arty piece and 3 workers. The city of Brusa is autorazed with a settler inside.(5 + 1 = +6)
(I) Germans want to drop RoP. I extend it and ally with them against the Byzantines. The Byzantines go after the city I founded in the gap big time and capture it. They kill a couple of isolated units but not much else. China declares war on the Byzantines due to the German MPP.

1545 AD (9)
I kill two TOW and Two elite tanks outside our former city. I then kill 2 TOW and a tank inside it to retake it (6 - 3 = +3) I found Ebony on the Celtic island, next to Ivory. (3 - 3 = 0) They have a ton of units in that city and so it lives for another day. Clean up three more Byzantine tanks. Our arty does a good job at Chalcedon and we raze it(0 + 1 = +1). Bring the Cav armies back to heal. The Byzantines are down to 15 tanks and 34 Mechs. I then steal computes from the Byzatines and upgrade a bunch of our units to Mechs.
(I) We lose one tank and one Infantry in Ebony and the Celts through everything at it. I must have seen our army defeat at least 10 archer by itself. The Byzantines kill of a TOW and a tank while losing a couple of tanks and a couple of Marines. The Germans come in a claean up some strays for us.

1550 AD (10)
There are 75 Celtic untis in sight of our resort by the sea. I leave all our units resting as I think we have the edge defensively. If you want to leader fish, go crazy. I just dropped off 2 more infantry and 4 more tanks. I get some arty on the way to raze Nicomedia and Heraclea. Clean up some units. Clean up some stray units.

[EDIT] Changed content to try and make the raze count more clear. Also added color to make the embarassment of losing the city stand out even more. :cry: :blush: :D

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (currently playing) ON HOLD - waiting for city count clarification.


I kill two TOW and Two elite tanks outside our former city. I then kill 2 TOW and a tank inside it to retake it.

:confused:
Did we LOSE a city this turn? I don't understand what city was captured, and without a name it is really hard to understand.

I can't complete the razed count until I understand this situation.

We lost a city that I built in the gap between us and th Byzantines. I recaptured it the next turn as I had the credits to do so, but I dropped the credit count by 3 for doing so.

At the start of turn 9 we had a 6 raze credit. I recputed one city and founded one city, leaving the count at zero. I then razed a Byzantine city to bring it back up to +1. The next player will have to raze to more cities before the ability to found or capture a city becomes active.

We lost a city that I built in the gap between us and the Byzantines. I recaptured it the next turn as I had the credits to do so, but I dropped the credit count by 3 for doing so.

At the start of turn 9 we had a 6 raze credit. I recaptured one city and founded one city, leaving the count at zero. I then razed a Byzantine city to bring it back up to +1. The next player will have to raze to more cities before the ability to found or capture a city becomes active.


If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative.
Actually, the raze credit was *3*. You forget the penalty for losing a city. This means that Ebony was illegally formed. I have to charge a -3 penalty for the illegal city, as was the precedent from last mistake.



Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +4
Razes from current player: Agedincum, Ancyra, Amorium, Septum, Brusa, and Chalcedon +6
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: Unnamed city that was retaken, building illegal city -6
Raze credit spent: Unnamed city from 1515AD, retake it, Ebony, -9
Raze credit at the end of the turn: -5

His count was +6 when he took back the city. How can that be illegal?

[Edit: Oh I see it wasn't the retaking that was illegal but the next city. Right?

Losing a city goes to 3. Taking it back goes to 0. Building another goes to -3 which is illegal (so a 3 penalty brings it to -6 after the city is built). Is that correct?

His count was +6 when he took back the city. How can that be illegal?

[Edit: Oh I see it wasn't the retaking that was illegal but the next city. Right?

Losing a city goes to 3. Taking it back goes to 0. Building another goes to -3 which is illegal (so a 3 penalty brings it to -6 after the city is built). Is that correct?

Correct - Ebony was the illegal city as we didn't have the razed credit to do so.

I got it. Why am I always left with a huge deficit of raze count?

If it is prefered I can replay the last two turns and just not retake the city. I would have just razed it if I understood the rules correctly. The city had nothing in it and a few pop points wasn't worth retaking it. I could have razed it at that point and rebuilt it and been better off. On top of thatI exposed the city to ensure the safety of the Arty and I would have pulled in back water defenders to keep the city had I realized the results.

I thought the raze credit dropped by three when we lost a city but we could retake it.

I thought the raze credit dropped by three when we lost a city but we could retake it. Looking over the rules that may have not been clear enough. I will cancel that raze penalty. I have revised the wording below:
If we lose a city the razed count goes down by 3. It is possible for the count to be negative. We don't have the right to reclaim the city except if enough raze credits are available.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +4
Razes from current player: Agedincum, Ancyra, Amorium, Septum, Brusa, and Chalcedon +6
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: Unnamed city that was retaken -3
Raze credit spent: Unnamed city from 1515AD, retake it, Ebony, -9
Raze credit at the end of the turn: -2

preturn: not much.

IBT we get slaughtered by Celts and only 1hp tank army, a 3hp marine and a leader are left in the end. Amazingly, AI would use musketmen to kill 1hp tank but not the army!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1550AD-leader.jpg

Egypt and Byzantines make peace. We lose 2 tanks to Byzantines.

(1)1555AD: Our tank army heals to 9hp, but there is no way we can hold the town. I retreat the tank army and the leader and gift New Chartress to Egypt. Our raze count goes to -5.

I don't understand why we chose to found a town instead of building airfield and airlifting enough units first. What's worse, we have an MA with China so we can't even make peace to save the town. The invasion was a total failure.

I lose 2 tanks and raze Nicomedia. Raze count=-4.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1555AD.jpg

Leader rushes army.

IBT our cav army is bombarded and killed, but we get another leader on defense.

(2)1560AD: Raze Heraclea with 2 TOW, 1 MI and 2 bombers. Raze count=-3.

Get another leader and rush another army. We do not have enough tanks to fill in. I think we need to send an MI army to Celt and found an airfield there.

IBT Marine attacks from sea and loses to conscript MI. China and Egypt make peace.

(3)1565AD: Two tank armies raze Trebizond without artillery support and kill the last two bombers. Raze count=-2.

(4)1570AD: Cleanup a small landing.

Our MI army lands on Celtic island again with a worker.

(5)1575AD: Raze Nicaea with UN. Raze count=-1.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1575AD.jpg

IBT Battlefield Medicine is built.

(6)1580AD: I create airfield.

Raze Adrianople with MoM. Raze count=0.

I airlift 8 MIs which should be enough together with the MI army.

IBT Germany destroys the town we gifted to Egypt. We get Wall Street message. What??? We are into the Modern Ages without Wall Street???

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1585AD.jpg

(7)1585AD: healing and moving. Airlift some tanks. Also send over a cav army and a settler.

(8)1590AD: This comes in handy. We raze Sardica. Raze count=1.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1590AD.jpg

IBT Celt units show up again, but this time we have much stronger defense. We have Wall Street.

(9)1595AD: Around the airfield we set up a killing zone and kill the first mini-SoD.

Raze Smyrna. Raze count=2.

Two tank armies raze Varna without artillery support. Raze count=3.

IBT we lose wines.

(10)1600AD: I replant spy on Egypt.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1600AD.jpg

I transport a few more MIs and tanks and create New Chartres (again!) on the airfield and use the leader to rush an airport. Raze count=0. There are about 40 archer/LBM/MDI around us but we have a MI army and 14 MIs, so we should be OK.

We are ready to attack Caesarea, Dyrrachium and Constantinople. We should raze the first two and capture the third which has Sun Tzu's.

Raze Adrianople with MoM. Raze count=0.
followed by...
We raze Sardica. Raze count=0.
which should be 1.
Raze Smyrna. Raze count=1.

Two tank armies raze Varna without artillery support. Raze count=2.

Which I think should be 2 and 3 respectively.

Which means that create a city on the airfield appears to me to be legal.

BUT, it would put our count to zero, which means we can't raze Caesarea and Dyrrachium and capture Constantinople without razing another city first. I personally doubt whether Sun Tzu is worth it, myself. We have barracks in most of our towns and the ones that don't can make them quickly or just pump artillery. Unless Constantinople is very well situated to give us lots of squares, I would just raze. The *only* city I would capture is Memphis for Hoover Dam (if it still exists).

We get Wall Street message. What??? We are into the Modern Ages without Wall Street???

Well, that's progress then! I was building a bunch of banks in core and semi-core cities to try to get our cash flow up and put us into position to even start stock exchanges. At least we have some stock exchanges now. I think we had 0 at the beginning of my turnset.

Question: Why won't people post mini-maps? They're very helpful in determining the overall situation. I understand some cropping to make pictures fit, but at least one "big picture" is very helpful in understanding the situation. Pasting the mini-map into a spot to give a view is helpful and still allows for "in line" pictures without wide text.

FWIW, I think conquest is a bad option. The name of the game is "Dominate the World". One challenge is in letting the opponents create enough cities for us to raze to get to the domination limit, not in simply wiping them out. Those "gap cities" the AI loves to found will probably help us out with that. Vast tracts of open land will draw AI cities like flies, so it shouldn't be TOO hard, but I still think we need to keep domination as the goal.

Arathorn

IBT Marine attacks from sea and loses to conscript MI.
Well at least this proves I wasn't over paranoid about marines.


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (swapped)
Microbe (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: -2
Razes from current player: Nicomedia, Heraclea, Trebizond, Nicaea, Adrianople, Sardica, Smyrna, and Varna. +8
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: gift New Chartres to Egypt. -3
Raze credit spent:
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +3

FWIW, I think conquest is a bad option. The name of the game is "Dominate the World".
I thought I made it clear no conquest. I am repeating my comment in case their is still confusion.

Lee, I think your roster is wrong. Microbe played. You're "currently playing" and Greebley is "on deck".

You might also check. I think Microbe founded a city on the Celt land, using 3 credits, making it +0 to you.

Arathorn

Lee, I think your roster is wrong. Microbe played. You're "currently playing" and Greebley is "on deck".
Agreed, and I fixed it below.


You might also check. I think Microbe founded a city on the Celt land, using 3 credits, making it +0 to you.
I found it. I missed it do to lack of bold, AND no name given to the city. People, the credit reporting is much easier when names are given.


Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: -2
Razes from current player: Nicomedia, Heraclea, Trebizond, Nicaea, Adrianople, Sardica, Smyrna, and Varna. +8
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: gift New Chartres to Egypt. -3
Raze credit spent: create a city on the airfield -3
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +0

Sorry guys, it was late last night and when I founded the town I didn't even realize I was using it. Then today I thought I might have to replay the last turn not to found it, but I am glad to see I short-counted one raze so all is well.

We have barracks in most of our towns

Actually, I found many towns without rax.

Constantinople is a very nice city by itself.

This is the mini-map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1600AD-map.jpg

Thanks for the mini-map, Microbe. A quick count shows ~~60 AI cities remaining for us to raze. If we raze them all and no more are founded, that gives us 20 new cities. That's probably not enough. That's about equal to adding China's lands to ours. We'll need a lot more land than that.

My proposals:
- Stay at war with Celts. Raze a few cities but leave much of their land unsettled. Continue to raze their new cities after they found, to get our count up.
- Make peace with Byzantines. Maybe raze one more city first. Let them help fill up their old lands. They're quite crippled and shouldn't be a big threat anymore. We need them to help our raze count.
- Turn on China. I would say Germany, but I think we still have a RoP with them and no way to get them to declare. Raze a bunch of their cities, including their core, but leave them alive, too. Improve our fronts, so we can continue to oscillate war around, crippling the big guys enough to limit space launch fears but not so much that they can't found another dozen or so cities for us to raze.
- NO MORE ALLIES! Allies kill settlers and limit the number of cities founded. AI-AI wars, at this point, don't help us that much. I think we can solo crush just about any foe, and we need to be the ones to decide how far is enough.
- My biggest "fear" for a true loss is by culture. We need to check F8 for cultural leader, both civ-wide and 20K. I think we can just catch the halfway point for civ-wide, but any city with a reasonable 20K shot should be torched. Space is way too many techs away. We razed UN. Domination will be us or nobody. AI conquest ain't gonna happen. It's culture that we have to watch.


BTW, paying unit upkeep in Communism is quite the feat. We should be proud of ourselves. And perhaps focus a bit more on infrastructure in the next player turn or two.

My $.02,
Arathorn

Egypt has 59032cp and we have 16772. Byzantine seems to have about the same culture as Egypt. Contantinople has 8811cp. So there is little concern about culture loss.

Should we do something to Egypt? They are really weak now. Maybe after China?

I have mixed feelings on Egypt. On one hand, they were tech leaders (and are still close), wiping them out would secure us Hoover which is always a huge benefit, and they're the culture leaders. On the other hand, they're far away which doesn't help our front or make logistics of attack easy, they've been seriously munched by other foes and are no longer the big dogs, and will have huge cultural boundaries which are slow to assult with no combat settlers and their terrain.

Still, we wouldn't NEED to found cities with new credits over by them, minimizing front concerns. And the long supply lines and large borders actually help to mitigate each other. <Shrug>

Actually, the foe *I* want to fight is Germany. They're scientific, we've not munched on them at all yet, they're second in land area, have a number of small cities we could raze easily, and control some nice land that I covet (not quality-wise, but in terms of movement around the board and empire consolidation). I also have a fear of RoP rape/abuse that greatly exceeds my fear of marines. But we have on-going deals and I don't see the need to trash our rep at this point.

Arathorn

Do they [edit: Germany] still have an MPP with China? If they do then attacking China will bring them into the war.

BTW, paying unit upkeep in Communism is quite the feat. We should be proud of ourselves. And perhaps focus a bit more on infrastructure in the next player turn or two.

Hmm, I think I checked at the beginning at my turns and we were not paying upkeep. We have some junk units like regular warriors that we should disband. Just pay attention to MP. It would be good to get the wines from China.

But I did build a lot of infran too (banks, stock exchanges, hospitals, etc). We have very strong production now even without Hoover.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1650AD.zip

1600 AD
I can't believe we have over $10000, but we have a lot of units not upgraded.

I see no purpose in continuing the Byzantine war. They are no longer a threat. I sign peace for wm and $174. We still need the AIs to build a few more cities for the raze credits.

I cancel the RoP with China, as it no longer serves a purpose.
(IT) I watch a lot of Celtic troops commit suicide at New Chartres.
As expected, we get auto-booted by the Byzantines.
Our Egyptian spy was caught.


1605 AD
I kill some of the Celtic troops by New Chartres.
(IT) Once again the Celts die at New Chartres.

Germany goes modern and draws Computers.


1610 AD
I kill all the troops next to New Chartres. There is still a nasty stack just outside our borders.
(IT) Germany and the Byzantines sign a peace treaty.


1615 AD
When are the Celts going to run out of junk units? I think we know why there economy sucked! For that matter why have all these elite victories not given me a leader?


1625 AD
It is time to start earning some raze credits. I declare war on the number one threat of Germany. I based that on empire size.
New Hamburg is razed for $16 and 1 worker.
New Frankfurt is auto-razed for $16. We really don't need them, but I capture 2 workers near the town.
(IT) :confused: Is Germany totally gassed? I didn't even see a single unit. Of course, I did pack 3+ mechs in every border town.


1630 AD
Eight tanks assault the Celtic town of Verulamium, but the city survives. I wonder just how many defenders are in the city?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-713.jpg

I can't build an army as we are at the limit! I disband the cavalry army, but I still can't create an army. This makes no sense at all. I check the city count and we are at 31. All he can do is rush a coal plant in New Paris.

New Munich is razed for $16 and 1 worker.
(IT) I see 1 German Panzer attack.


1635 AD
Verulamium is finally razed for $1 and 4 workers.
New Konigsberg is razed for $18 and 1 worker.
This is frelling absurd. I lost 4 tanks to kill 1 lousy Germany infantry in the Celtic lands.
New Avignon is formed.

I am not sure when it happened, but Germany now owns Hoover. Their threat level has been elevated.


1640 AD
It is time to start hitting the edge of the core.
New Leipzig is razed for $27 and 5 workers.


1645 AD
China built New Beijing during the IT and blocked my attack on New Berlin. :mad:
They also trapped units on the wrong side that where completing the rail-net to attack New Berlin.

New Besancon is formed.


1650 AD
I instead hit the core and razed Stuttgart for $42 and 4 workers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-714.jpg
This one was on the CELTIC island! This was killing a lone panzer that landed by New Chartres.

Augustodurum is razed for $0 and 8 workers (including a settler I really didn't want to kill).


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-715.jpg
I can't build another army, so I rush a coal plant in Strasbourg.

NOTE: I killed 2 Germany panzers that game through from the Chinese lands. Watch our southern borders carefully.

New Berlin is razed for $42 and 4 workers.

==========================

Summary:
1 tank is in the army by New Chartres. Please load the 2 named elites next turn.

I gained another 2% of the world. 4 more border expansions occur during the next 10 turns including New Orleans that should close the gap with New Rheims.

Germany still needs to be hit more. Most of the cities I got were small, and most likely not well developed.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Arathorn
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +0
Razes from current player: New Hamburg, New Frankfurt, New Munich, Verulamium, New Konigsberg, New Leipzig, New Besancon, Augustodurum, and New Berlin. +9
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: New Avignon, and New Besancon. -6
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +3

I got it. I should be able to play tonight.

[Edit: I will probably continue the German war until we get Hoovers.]

We have so much gold, would it be better to do max research on Synthetic Fibers?

Not a bad idea. I will look into researching when I play.

Preturn: Start up self research. I am actually suprised Lee hadn't already done this. We have 18k and nothing to spend it on other than research. Heading to Ecology (Mass transit) and Modern Armor. It will take a while to get there.

I change the Coal Plants. I hope to capture Hoover and Leo (for a possible Modern upgrade in the future). Both are in Memphis.
Since our Armies are pretty strong I also will build some Scientific buildings.

I build a Colony on our 7th Lux (Ivory). The eighth is by Memphis (I detect a theme here).

Use the units fortified about to attack Pi Ramses. I Bombard and then kill 2 Mechs, 4-5 Panzers, 2 Marines and lose a Tank.

Raze Pi-Ramses.. (+4)

I used some armies that were defending stuff so I replace their defense with Mechs.

Capture 5 Artillery with which I bombard a stack of 3 panzers and another stack of Mechs.

IBT: A destroyer is Sank. Celtic Cav dies vs a tank that I should have covered. Kill 3 Panzers on defense.

1655 AD: Our time to Ecology drops to 9 turns from 12. Check and sure enough Egypt just got it. I do a safe steal which succeeds (needed to plant spy first).
This is good. We have Mass Transit. All towns size 15 and larger switch to Mass Transit.

Wake up the workers to improve some land around Kyoto. It has 2 mountains without Mines and an unirrigated/unmined grassland.

Kill 3 Panzers.

Raze Heliopolis (+5)

An elite attack on a Marine gets us a leader

IBT: China Demands Uranium. Urgh! Give in for now. Our border towns would probably hold but I am unsure what China currently has so I don't risk it.

1660 AD: A mech can't kill a red-lined infantry.
I rush Apollo without thinking about it with the leader. Oops.
Raze Giza (+6)
Capture Memphis (+3)
We now have Hoover and our 8th Lux.

1665 AD: Get a fairly useless leader on the Celt Island. Rush a factory.
Raze Dortmund (+4)
Build New Rouen (+1)

1670 AD: Get Another Leader on the Celtic Continent. Rush a Police Station.
Raze Bremen (+2)

IBT: A NEW town called Bremen is built by Germany

1675 AD:
Raze Bremen again (+3)
Raze Camulodunum (+4)

1680 AD:
Raze Salzburg (+5)
Raze Heidelburg (+6)
Raze Frankfurt (+7)
Build New Dijon (+4)
Build New Grenoble (+1)

IBT: Egypt starts Internet

1685 AD:
Raze Ernoble(sp?) (+2) - A newly settled Celtic Town.

It takes two safe steals and 7000 gold, but we get Miniturization.

Internet in 12 turns.

1690 AD:
Raze Gergovia (+3) (celtic)

1695 AD:
Raze Liepzig (+4)
Raze Cologne (+5) (size 24 core German city - first city over size 12).
Build New Amiens (+2)

Get a leader which becomes an army.

1700 AD:
Attack Alesia but it does not fall.
Get a leader which becomes a solar plant in New Chartres
Note that New Chartres has gotten a solar plant, Police Station, and Factory.

Notes:
Synthetic Fibers Next turn! I have been building Unis and Libs to speed it up. Nuclear power, Laser, Robotics can't hurt. We cant use the money to rush. We are currently tied in tech with Egypt and Byz and ahead of everyone else.

I have been placing cities more than OCP apart to try to grab more land.

I have been using drafting to speed up building cultural buildings.

Getting Internet will help as it gives an automatic +2 culture per city (10 turns). I checked the Egyptian city and they won't get the Internet before us (about 15 turns behind).

China is the only large nation left. Germany has 8 cities. Byzantium has 2 and is in danger of being destroyed by China. Egypt has 4 (but is still the tech leader). The Celts have 4 cities.

I would consider ordering China to leave after the next German city falls (attack lined up) and our troops are in line with an attack on them.

There is an army on its way to the main continent.

We may want to war with Egypt just to Raze Byblos and remove cultural pressure from Memphis.

I am guessing I won't see this game again (unless we need to delay to get our Dom win).

[Edit: We are up to 37% land area.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95_AD1700.JPG

I used some armies that were defending stuff so I replace their defense with Mechs.
I found us a bit short of mechs, so I loved to take advantage of army immunity. I did start some mechs latter during the turns due to the shortage.

China Demands Uranium. Urgh! Give in for now.
This is one of the few times I would have been more defiant. You may have gotten us nuked in the next war by doing this.

I have been using drafting to speed up building cultural buildings.
We can get away with that to a limited degree. Don't forget we still have some Japanese workers that we can merge to speed up building temples.

Getting Internet will help as it gives an automatic +2 culture per city (10 turns).
Having every new city expand borders in 5 turns is great. It will also speed the progress toward 100 culture points. Some of the cities need a double expansion to claim maximum land from my turn, and it sounds the same from Greebley's turn.


I can't believe Asyut is our best shield source for the Internet. Who knew that city would turn out so valuable.

Looking at the map I now consider Germany a non-threat. I agree that we need to get China to declare on us and get the next war going.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)
Arathorn (on deck)
Microbe

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +3
Razes from current player: Pi-Ramesses, Heliopolis, Giza, Dortmund, Bremen, Bremen again, Camulodunum, Salzburg, Heidelburg, Frankfurt, Ennoble, Gergovia, Leipzig, and Cologne. +14
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: 0
Raze credit spent: Memphis, New Rouen, New Dijon, New Grenoble, and New Amiens. +15
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +2

China Demands Uranium. Urgh! Give in for now.


This is one of the few times I would have been more defiant. You may have gotten us nuked in the next war by doing this.

The manhattan project hasn't been built. No danger of that. Noone has even started it.

The problem was that it caught me by suprise. I couldn't even check to make sure our cities were safe from Chinese tanks but had to decide without looking at our empire. I didn't think they could take a town of ours, but I couldn't be sure. Risking a town and the penalty didn't seem worth it.

We don't care about our rep at this point. We are stealing techs and don't need to buy Lux or Resources. We can break the deal with no consequences that I can see - even if we declare war on them. Heck we would probably survive always war at this point.

1700 AD (0)
Starting Credit +2 Not much to do except find every thing. The Celts have a couple of settlers wandering about. Seems the Chinese have a bunch of cities that could be easily razed. They even have a unit we could boot. They have a Uranium colony but that will die in several turns as New Marseilles expnads in 1 and Amiens in 7. Germany is ready for peace, I would like to leave them enough large cities so they will pump settlers to fill in for the soon to be razed Chinese towns. On the issue of culture pressure for Memphis, I think all of Eygpt would have to go to make thinkgs really safe. Maybe the Chinese will pull them into the war.
(I)Lots of Chinese and German movement. The Germans land a Panzer on the Celtic island. We get Synthetic Fibers and start on Genetics.

1705 AD (1)
Start off with the Germans, We bombard and raze Nuremburg +3. I then ask the Chinese to leave and they declare. They hadn't heard of the new Modern Armour that just rolled off our assembly lines. We make peace with Germany for 229g and 18gpt. Back to Eygpt and we bombard all stray units killing 4 Mechs and 4 Tanks and picking up 17 workers (not all of which were Chinese). We bombard and raze Kaifeng +4. Turning to the Celts, We bombard and raze Burdigala +5. I then found the city of New Cherbourg +2 to keep oil and spices out of Germany's hands. I don't do much attaacking as I upgrade all vet tanks to MA (not many).
(I)Germans boot us. The Chinese move more units in, we lose one Mech, but it takes three of theirs to do it.

1710 AD (2)
Start bombing strays. Kill off 3 Mech, 1 Marine, 1 Treb (Russian) and 1 TOW. We generate a MGL doing so. Build a factory with him. We get our first elite MA by bombarding and razing Tatung +3. Nest comes bombarding and razing New Shanghai +4. No arty but we raze Shantung anyway +5. Next comes razing Anyang +6 and more important to me, killing two of their bombers. We then turn on Caesarea and raze it +7. The Clets built another city. We promptly raze it, Cataractonium was short lived. +8
(I) The Celts and Byzantines embargo us. The Chinese throw everything they have at New Bescon and caputre it+5.

1715 AD (3)
We recapture New Bescon +2. I then raze New Canton +3. Next razed is Dyrrachium +4. This ends the Chinese presence around the Byzantines. Hopefully they will settle more cities now. Found New Poiters to fill in a big gap+1. We bombard and raze Chinan +2. /Clean up strays; 3 Mech, 3 Tanks.
(I)Not much, all the Chinese send at us are 2 mech and a tank. They try a lame 1 marine assualt on our island.

1720 AD (4)
We bombard and raze New Beijing +3. The Chinese used to have two fur colonies, I hope we didn't hurt their rep. We bombard and raze Ningpo +4 and with it goes the Chinese rubber. We bombard and raze Tientsin +5 and with it goes the Chinese aluminum. Found New Toulouse to get the furs and rubber. +2. We bombard and raze New Nanking +3. We don't have much arty left but it doesn't save Paoting as it gets razed. +4. I let most of the armies rest this turn.
(I) We lose a Mech and the covered MA to counters.

1725 AD (5)
Xinjian get bombed and razed. +5. The next city up is Beijing which is razed +6 along with Newton's. Yangchow is the next city razed+7. Yekaterinburg goes down next. +8. Sue to the number of units in Beijing we won't get much more this turn. On top of that, we have nailed all of the cities that didn't have enough expansion to keep us out, so it should slow down from here. We get a MGL on the island and can form an army. We will need escorts to bring it home.
(I)Not much

1730 AD (6)
Raze a Celt city who's name was lost.+8 Clean up a Chinese landing on the Celtic island and our island. Found New Bayonne +5 to get the rest of the wines and fill in some room. Our forces line up to take some core cities next turn.
(I)Not much.

1735 AD (7)
Hangchow holds. Kaifeng doesn't and is razed +6. Next up is the city of Canton which is razed +7. Set some more up for next turn.
(I) The Chinese attack us with a TOW. They then send 4 destroyers into the port of Hangchow. The Celts bring another settler to the spot next to our armies.

1740 AD (8)
We atart by razing Hangchow +8 with the fleet in port. The next city is Novgorod which burns +9. Line up a couple more cities for next turn.
(I) Germany and China ally against Byzantine. We get attacked with another TOW.

1745 AD (9)
The new Celtic city of Ratae is razed +10. We then raze Tsingtao +11. When then turn our attention to Macao and raze it +12.
(I) Nothing happens. We get the Internet.

1750 AD (10)
Orenburg is razed. That leaves the Chinese two cities. I used Amiens as the mealing point andI stacked all the units for your pleasure.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-1750ad.JPG

Looking at it I think we have one more credit than I thought. I left plenty for Microbe since he has been short changed twice. I also wanted to leave some room for the Byzantines and Germans to expand into.

43% of the world and the Internet is build. This is one is a wrap, and the only delaying factor will be border expansions.

Signed up:
LKendter
Greebley
Meldor
Arathorn (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Don't forget the variant rules in the first post.

Raze credit at the start of the turn: +2
Razes from current player: Nuremburg, Kaifeng, Burdigala, Tatung, New Shanghai, Shantung, Anyang, Caesarea, Cataractonium, New Canton, Dyrrachium, Chinan, New Beijing, Ningpo, Tientsin, New Nanking, Paoting, Xinjian, Beijing, Yangchow, Yekaterinburg, Celt city, Kaifeng, Canton, Hangchow, Novgorod, Ratae, Tsingtao, Macao, Orenburg +30
Lost cities / penalty from the current player: New Besancon -3.
Raze credit spent: New Cherbourg, New Besancon (recaptured), New Poitiers, New Toulouse, and New Bayonne. -15
Raze credit at the end of the turn: +14

I am not sure where the +2 mismatch with Meldor occurred.

I figured I would end with enough credits to cover the penalties you would give me.

43 cities, 43% of the world. Credit for 4 more cities plus maybe another half-dozen credits out there. That's still a ways from 66% of the world covered. It might be time for *gasp* peace, to let the AI civs fill in the land to give us more credits for more cities.

Anyway, I got it and hope to get to it tonight.

Arathorn

I do think one war is worthwhile. Declare on Egypt and raze Byblos. It would be a shame to lose Memphis with Leo and Hoover. That would remove the cultural pressure Other than that we can fight a holding action with Egypt. Destroying Egypt may not be a good idea as I think they are one of the two cultural leaders.

(0) 1750 - Evaluate situation. Egypt is cultural leader with 63174 -- not a big threat. Constantinople has over 10K culture, but just barely. That's no big threat. Nobody has built any space ship parts, so that's not a worry.

An awful lot of wars going on. Makes it hard for the AI to get settlers out. Anyway, I'm at +14 credits, so I'll try to get some cities founded ASAP, so we can get some border expansions. I have no worries about population for domination, it's all about land. Will follow the larger-than-OCP plan, to get as many squares as possible with one border expansion.

Mao pays 63 gpt, 84 gold, and his WM for peace. At two cities, all he can do is build more cities to help us with raze credits.

I also wake some MI and let the Germans (and others) into the free spaces. Why not? Their cities become our cities, over time.

(I) YAY! China founds a city. In 20 turns, that's another 1/3 of a city for us.

(1) 1752 - Found New Brest +11. Found New Strasbourg +8. Chop temples. Found New Bordeaux +5.

(2) 1754 - Found New Rennes +2. Will declare on Egypt soon, but just getting everything in order first, to guarantee no surprises when I do.

Up to 44% of land area. But expansions (and double expansions) will help that a fair bit.

(3) 1756 - Declare war on Cleo, simply because she exists. Well, that, and Memphis is a cultural problem. I'm just gonna raze Memphis and Thebes and then leave her alone. Germany's been doing a number on Egypt, so Cleopatra's no longer a real threat, but I don't want any flips on my watch.

Raze Byblos +3, which was defended by 2 regular TOWs. Funny thing is, I get a leader out of the deal. He goes back to rush a factory in one of my new cities. But he can't reach any cities this turn.

Raze Thebes +4, which was a bit of an effort. Germany's blocking rails to the front, so I went without artillery support. Lost a modern armor that way. Oh well, we're making more, all the time.

(4) 1758 - Found Paris 2 +1. Immediately get to work on its cultural buildings -- two expansions will be required to bring in all the squares I hope for it.

Workers, workers, workers, YAWN!

(I) China and Byzantines sign a treaty. Celts take advantage of some open space I gave them and found another 1/3 city credit.

(5) 1760 - Raze Tolosa +2. Thanks, Celts.

(6) 1762 - Boring.

(7) 1764 - Still not enough AI cities.

(I) Germans and Byzantines make peace. Egyptian cities greatly threatened by Germany. Maybe I'll just wipe out Egypt.

(8) 1766 - Elephantine actually had 4 defenders against 3 German potential attackers, but I didn't know that. Raze Elephantine +3.

(9) 1768 - Raze Lindum, +4, of the Celts. They like that spot. Just make sure we don't put too many units away from our Celtic city and we'll keep getting a trickle of credits.

(10) 1770 - Raze Tanis, +5, of the Egyptians. They're down to OCC and unlikely to found (m)any more cities, so I'm just going to take them out. Gives us more slave-merges to do, too.

Raze Alexandria, +6, to eliminate the Egyptians. More slave merges can be done, but I'm not going to do them.

Our peace treaty with Germany expires in one (1) turn. I suggest we trim them a bit. We can pick up a number of razes of their outlying cities. Plus, we should destroy their military. Six razes are easily possible on the first turn. After that, I'd move back away from the front and hope they found even more cities. That will give us 4 new cities to found. With second culture expansions due before TOO long, I think we might well win on Lee's turn. Microbe has a shot.

I got us up to 54% of the land. We have two city credits. There is one settler available. He is in place for where I believe we should found. With more expansions coming soon, we should be OK. There's good space west of the Byzantines, south and/or east of Memphis, and where I have a settler. The line of cities north(west) of China will be expanding again before TOO long and will merge up those borders.

Artillery stack is fortified by Amiens. It's probably unnecessary, but it can be used. Germany does have a fair few troops (23 Mechs, 22 TOWs, a panzer, and a marine), but our 80 MA, many in armies, can eat them up at will, with or without artillery support. Probably for bigger cities like Bonn, you should bring artillery or armies.

I did some disbanding in cities to get buildings up faster. More can probably be done. And merges of Egyptian slaves are safe now. You will also need more settlers. Just change some builds.

BTW, I was going for Robotics, in case anybody wanted to use radar artillery. Hardly matters.

Shouldn't be any more than another 20 turns, at max, in this game. Thanks to everybody!!! My best guess is that it can be done in under 10, if care is taken on city builds and artillery are used for rushing temples/libraries. Problem is that if it can't be done, we're almost SOL if we raze a few civs out of existence.

Arathorn

I think if we continue to place cities so they merge together after the second border expansion, we will be able to get to 66%. We can dispand units to get to 10+ culture quite quickly enough.

I don't think we can lose. The worst would be waiting around for the AI to build settlers. They would eventually do so I think.

preturn: nothing.

IBT Germany and China sign MPP.

(1)1772AD: declare on Germany and we are also at war with China. I probably had some units inside German territory but wouldn't matter.

Raze Salzburg. RC=7.
Found Orlean 2. RC=4.
Raze Brandenburg, Bonn, Dortmund, El-Amarna. RC=8.

Kill many exposed German units.

Raze Ningpo, Yangchow, Beijing. RC=11.
Capture Stuttgart. RC=8. (should have razed)

Kill 5 MIs and 2 TOWs and raze Berlin. RC=9.

(2)1774AD: Raze Alesia with Zeus.. RC=10.
Raze Nemausus. RC=11.

Found Lyons 2, Rheims 2. RC=5.

Raze Munich. RC=6.

Found Tours 2 and Marseilles 2. RC=0.

I declare on Byzantines.

Raze Ohrid, Prilep, Vidin. RC=3.

Found Chartres 2. RC=0.

Kill a LBM and get a leader.

Raze Paoting. RC=1.

Stop razing so AI would build settlers.

(3)1776AD: Get another leader.

IBT we get Laser and Cure for Cancer.

(4)1778AD: no AI settlers. :(

IBT we get Longevity.

(5)1780AD: Byzantine has a settler. :D

(6)1782AD: Germany has a settler too. Start disbanding MAs to build libraries/universities in towns that could get a 2nd expansion in next few turns.

(7)1784AD: Raze Berlin again. RC=2.

Raze Chengdu. RC=3.

Found Avignon 2. RC=0.

We are 62%.

(8)1786AD: We are 63%. We probably don't need to wait too much. 3 more cities and we should be able to reach domination.

(9)1788AD: We are 64%. I think we can go ahead and raze all the remaining cities (but one).

Raze Samosata. RC=1.

Raze Konigsburg, Hannover. RC=3.

Found Besancon 2. RC=0. We are 65%.

Raze Shanghai. RC=1. China is destroyed.

Raze Constantinople. RC=2.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK95-win.jpg

Thanks for a fun game, and I am now not in any SGs. :eek:

Another win for the LK series despite some of the most horrid starting lands I have ever seen. Just how much jungle and marsh did we have to clear? Not to mention the lack of early productively waiting for lands to develop. We had to build way more then the average number of workers, and that really killed the early economy. That together with the lack of infrastructure was a rough combination.

Nice finish Microbe :D

Ya, it was not an easy game. Agree our lands really slowed our start. I am glad you relaxed the 5 city rule. We would have not gotten the important island at all and the game would have been a real slog through the mud (probably a loss with a run-away civ).

Good game all.