Ok We are moving up the chain.....First Monarch, then Emporer slipping the date back a bit. What can we do on DemiGod????

This is [c3c]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_3.jpg
4000BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start3.sav)

Roster: FULL
Tubby Rower
Dman
Minute Man
Bede
Mach
A-K
eldar


Still working on world settings so rolls will be out tomorrow.

HEre are the guidelines for the game. I stole these from others but they did a better job of writing things down than I could.Also, each turn (except the first player) will be around ten turns +/- a few. If you don't have to complete them all then its OK to stop early and pass it on. Sometimes the game just has some natural break points beyond which you might commit the next player to a massive undertaking and you want to leave the choice up to them as they will shoulder the burden. Sometimes a war is just about over and you don't want to leave a the next player with a couple of boring "clean-up" turns or you have worked to get something done that you feel is important and you don't want it lost. Take a couple extra to do so. Try not to "hog" all the fun, but don't short change yourself either.
Succession Game Etiquette Guide
Please do:
Let the team know if you're going to be unable to play for an extended period - holiday, illness, exams etc.
Post a "Got it" notice or ask for a skip within 24 hours of the save becoming available (I reserve the right to skip a player who hasn't responded after the 24 hour grace period is over).
Play and post within 48 hours of posting a "Got it". Additional time may be requested and granted for expected delays.
Write up a log of the events occurring during your turn and post it along with your save.
Provide notes for the next player as to the current situation and any immediate plans for the future - are those Caravels heading NE or SW? is that Swordsman fortified to heal or act as a lookout? Our forces are mustering for an attack on...
Feel free to pause and ask for advice, or simply discuss, if a situation arisies in the game and you're unsure of the best course of action.

Please do not:
Automate Workers.
Use City Governors unless the team has discussed and agreed their use.
Leave units on goto orders that will extend beyond your turn. (Auto-moving is bad form in SGs)
Make deals on your last turn. However, you should notify the next player if trading opportunities exist.
Make wholesale changes to build orders on the inherited turn without consulting the team. One or two is okay, and pre-builds may naturally get changed.

Signing in.

I'm probably going to regret this, but I can't resist giving it a shot. Sign me up, too.

Sign me in as well ;)

Okay,panel, put on your blindfolds :cool: , it's time for the Mystery Guest. Welcome to "What's My Line?" Please sign in.

<goes to blackboard and with the screech of chalk sending a chill up the spines of the audience>

TGOMTG :devil:

Here to learn how to whup Demi-God before the end of the sixth millenium!

Thanks for the invite. :D

Checking in. My only DG experience to date was COTM3, where I got royally whupped, ending up a 2CC watching from afar as India blasted into space.

Here to learn how to whup Demi-God before the end of the sixth millenium!

You really meant to say "Here to teach to whup Demi-God", didn't ya? :crazyeye:

Here to learn how to whup Demi-God before the end of the sixth millenium!

...says the player who's part of a team proving Sid on a Pangaea isn't as daft as it's cracked up to be (albeit with a 3-cow start) [pimp]

idiot contingent aboard :salute:

You really meant to say "Here to teach to whup Demi-God", didn't ya? :crazyeye:

And who do you think is the "+1" on that magnificent team... ;)

Ok looks like everything is full. I'll roll some starts today and put together a roster. Here is what I'm planning...

70% continents,
Normal climate
Normal Temperature
4 billion years old
Sendintary barbs.

As far as who to play...Dutch or England??

Do we want random opponents or does someone want to dictate those. I like some sort of unexpected things in the game. (Even though MapStat will reveal this one pretty quick...)

Let me know before noon EST

i'd rather have hittites but england works.
I don't fancy playing Dutch because of defensive UU,
but if team want Dutch i am fine with them :)

I forgot about the Hittites. They seemed pretty strong in my COTM9 even though they didn't have a lot of land. I think that I'll do them unless I hear a significant dissent.

Rivals??? All random sound fine?

Hittites and random rivals sounds good. :)

If we go for the Hitties bump the barbarian setting. Will keep the AI busy early and set us up for some defensive leader farming when we go to war with the neighbors.

Ok updated the roster.. Its on the first post, but those of you like me that are too lazy to scroll. Here it is...

Roster: FULL
Tubby Rower (out March 7-10)
Dman
Minute Man
Mach
Bede
A-K
eldar


If there are any objections let me know now.

So Hittites, random rivals and roaming barbs. I'll roll some starts and post pics then get the save uploaded after the start is decided.


Be back in a bit....

Well I don't think that we have to discuss this but I'll post them all anyway. Start # 3 has 4 BGs, two golden hills & a cow on a river (starting location is BG). If we move the settler south. we can get all of those in the capitals radius.

well here are the pics..
Start #1
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_1.jpg

Start #2
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_2.jpg

Start #3
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_3.jpg

Start #4
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_4.jpg

Start #5
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start_5.jpg

Yeah I agree,#3 it is. Scout onto the cow first -- maybe we might want to settle east on the hill, depending on what we see. If we don't see anything, why don't we just settle in place? We'd lose the bg, but we'd get the cow to work immediately, and we'll get the city a turn earlier.

Start #3 is a definite winner...
But why would you move settler south?? Cow won't be in city radius then.
I'd rather settler in place.

Suggest moving scout NE-E to the top of mountain to get better view if nothing opens settle in place worker to irrigate cow

What about research?? Min on writing?
Build order??? Should we build scout 1st and then warrior->worker->warrior.
This looks like 6 turn settler factory.
We also probably want to squeeze a worker before settlers or/and granary are built.
I think we also should try to pull a settler before granary.
I see Tubby put me to play opening. If anybody else wants to do that I'll be happy to pass such an opportunity. :)

Research? Writing, yes. I would do max...only because I'm not used to the DG tech rates. I defer to the trainers.
Build order? Scout first, yes. An early worker? I've never done that before, looks like I'm might learn something here.

I agree settle on the spot, but let's move the scout & worker first. I suggest worker n, scout ne-e. If we find another moocow...

EDIT: I think tub meant settle sw...

I wasn't thinking about. I now see after looking again that the cow won't be in the radius. E on hill is my preference but settling in place is fine too.

I'd research Writing on Max.... someone (I believe soutscout) did a bit of research and max on writing does pay off. Especially that most of the early workable tiles are on the river.

NE-E is best for scout because he would see 2 tiles in every direction barring other mountains. He would alsoo cross the river on the second movement point and climb a mountain. Two things that would normally slow him down.

Worker to either mine & road in place if settling to the E or move to cow to irrigate/road. With all of the BGs around shields won't be a problem.

Build order....scout, settler, granary, settler, settler, etc.

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_start3.SAV)

I can start us off. I should have some time during Ana's nap today to squeeze out the first 20. I was planning on getting GOTM 40 finished but that can wait. I like this start.

If I don't hear from anyone in ~15 to 20 minutes. I'm going to proceed with the plan that I laid out here and post the 3000BC save later today.

Opponents - Babylon, Otto, Portugal, Dutch, Spain, Russia & France. 4 of which start with Alpha. Philo gambit might be harder this game

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_settle_or_move.jpg

The title of this picture is settle or move.....What to do? The game in forest would be nice....I think that I want to move but will wait for response or 10-20 minutes.

I've done the math and 3 cows give us +3 food and city gives us +2. so food is ok.


Shields 3 cows = 6.
city center = 1 maybe 2 (on hill)
1 BG = 2 or 2 BG = 4.
game in forest = 2

We might have a 4-turn warrior-settler pump here. Don't know need confirmation.

Irrigating cows instead of mining would increase growth and might have worker-settler-settler pump.

Basically I don't know what to do with such good land.

Lurker's comment:

When the city expands it will have 3 cows, and if you settle in place it will also get those 2 gold mountains for some extra commerce.

....if you settle in place it will also get those 2 gold mountains for some extra commerce.
I hate to settle on BGs unless I have too. The gold can be captured by our first settler since those hills won't be worked for a LOOOONG time.

Oops, didn't see that on first glance, you'd have a 3 cow and game start if you moved onto that hill to the east.

Ok. Moving to east....I'll be back in a bit

Doh, too late. I would have settled in place...

Edit: Try to get a settler out before the granary?

3 cows???? :eek: Holly cows.....
Well.. how about early domination win and beat both our monarch and emperor games??? :lol:

Ok... i am a little late... Tubby...
What ever you do play smart ;) Remember no red ambulance required this time.

We will definetely have 2 settler factories with those cows... Don't have time now, but we should be able to do some calculations ... We even have a game in city radius as well...
Well... go ahead and do you best..
Remember to post detailed log and a roster...

@TEAM: I will be extremely grumpy on MM issues this time around... Beware :mischief:

I'm with you on the red ambluance, dman.

Here is my log I hope I did OK...

T0 4000BCmove scout NE-E to two more cows on a the river and a game in the forest. See another river too.
Pause for some reflection.....
refresh thread to see any responses....
Pause more for reflection....
Broke mirror due to bad reflection.
Decided to move settler go E to hill. see wines to the south....woo hoo great start!!!
Worker to cow to mine
T1 3950BCsettle Hattusas -> scout in 5
worker on cow to mine next turn
scout popped a settler, and I'm gonna use it this time
move settler NW to be on river and get maximum BG
Writing @ max
T2 3900BCScout moves E
Tarsus founded -> scout
worker starts mine
T3 3850BCzz
T4 3800BCzz
T5 3750BCGH teaches us CB
T6 3700BCBabylonian spear comes into view (he has BW & we have alpha)
Hattusas scout -> worker
move new scout west
see brown borders to the east
T7 3650BCtarsus scout -> barracks
move tarsus citizen off of cow so new Hattusas citizen (coming next turn) can use it
meet Cathy she has BW & we have Alpha and CB
T8 3600BCportugal warrior comes from the south. He's even with us
mine done, worker road
eastern scout sees 4 warriors, 3 spears 3 workers and a scout all russian. welcome to demigod!!!
bump lux to 20% to prevent riots
T9 3550BCHattusas worker -> granary
move worker to northern cow
T10 3500BCchange tarsus to worker due in 2
T11 3450BCborders expand and switch second citizen in tarsus to 3rd cow
T12 3400BCTarsus worker -> barracks
worker to help road.
bump sci back to 100%
T13 3350BCgot WC from GH near orange borders (Ottomans)
T14 3300BCsee light blue borders north of cathy.
T15 3250BCMeet Ottomans and Spain That leaves only the French and Dutch on the other continent
switch which cows the two cities were working
try to broker Masonry from Ottomans but he won't even trade 3 techs and all of our economy for it. would have been nice....could have gotten even in tech and probably everyone's economy and 3 slaves...
mine done 2 workers move to 3rd cow
looked to see if I could squeeze a settler out before Hattusas granary but no. two turns shy on growth
T16 3200BCcan get Masonry now, but 3 techs 5gpt, & 3 gold sounds expensive
switch Tarsus to settler due in 8
T17 3150BCbump lux up to 20%
T18 3100BCcan get Masonry from Otto for Alpha, 1 gpt, and 6 g
trade it to Henry for 20G and BW
T19 3050BCtried to trade Isabella Masonry for 3 slave but can only get one...nope
mine done, two workers to mine BG NW of Hattusas
T20 3000BCMM Hattusas to get exactly 14 shields in next 2 turns just enough for granary to be done.
one worker NW of Hattusas is mining and the other is roading

Dman you'll have to MM the two cities to get the optimal shield/food balance. I think that I have it ok. If you make Hattusas work all thre cows, Tarsus won't grow fast enough to produce a settler before the shields fill up. We could switch Tarsus to a barracks and start pumping archers. Right now we have no military and that needs to change quick!!


Screenie and save to come after uploading

3000BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_tub_3000BC.SAV)

Dotmap
All dots are on regular grasslands except the red and light blue. Don't know about them yet but I'm thinking that they are hills.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_3000BC.jpg

One more thing....Bump the Lux up to prevent the Hattusas from rioting!!!!!

Looks good, tub. We popped a settler, nice! The save download is broke, though.

You mined all three cows? Hm...I would have irrigated at least one of them, to get Hattusas to 5fpt. Later, if we can get that game chopped and irrigated, we could have gotten Tarsus to 5fpt too... Hey people s-m-r-ter than me, can you give a word on this? Thanx...

Also the dotmap is a bit more spread out than I would have made it...I don't have time to make myself one, though...

Er...why exactly did you decide to mine all the cows? If you irrigated a couple of them, we could have two four-turn settler factories. Mining them essentially wastes half of our food bonuses. Especially in the really early going, food is much more important than shields.

EDIT: crosspost with Mach. Don't know about the "smarter" bit, but I do agree with you. :)

Sorry about the mining. I wasn't thinking I guess. I'm glad you guy yelled at me instead of dman!!! I think that we could still get good production out of those cities.

I think what I was thinking was to make Tarsus a worker pump instead of a settler pump. We could build a barracks in Tarsus and get archers & workers every few turns.

I'm looking into the save issue right now.

TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok We are moving up the chain.....First Monarch, then Emporer slipping the date back a bit. What can we do on DemiGod????

This is


4000BC save

Roster:
Tubby Rower - mined too many cows
Dman - up
Minute Man - on deck
Mach
Bede
A-K
eldar

The save is fixed

Hattusas can be a 4-turn settler factory at size 4 and 5 by the following:
3 mined BGs (2 are used at size 4)
1 mined cow
1 irrigated game (5 fpt now)

Tarsus can be a 4-turn settler factory or 2-turn worker factory at size 4 and 5 if you do the following:
1 mined cow
1 irrigated cow (5 fpt now)
3 mined BGs

Hattusas:
Size 4:
7 shields, 5 fpt
14 shields, 5 fpt (GROWTH!)
Size 5:
23 shields, 5 fpt
32 shields, 5 fpt (GROWTH! Settler completed!)

Tarsus:
Size 4:
8 shields, 5 fpt
16 shields, 5 fpt (GROWTH!)
Size 5:
26 shields, 5 fpt
36 shields, 5 fpt (GROWTH! Settler completed)

Alternatively, Tarsus can be a 4 turn - settler (3 turns) / warrior (1 turn) pair at size 5 and 6 by mining a 4th BG, so you have 10 - 20 (Growth) - 32 - 44 shields. Corruption might take a bite of one shield, but it's close to Hattusas, so it'll still work.

Good luck team, I'll be lurking. Hope the post here helped. :)

So do we back-track and irrigate a cow? I'd put the next city 1 NW of red dot (right on the wine). Yellow dot looks good for moving near the dyes. Need to give this more thought. Be interesting to see where dman takes this.

Thanks, Ginger Ale! That was what I was thinking, although I couldn't have said it so clearly. I disagree with you on one point -- Tarsus cannot be a 4-turn settler/warrior factory because it will go down to size 4 when it builds the settler...meaning it can't build the warrior. It also can't build the warrior first (at size 5) because of corruption. So I think the best we can do is...

Go back and irrigate two of the cows. I think then, for the short term, Hattusas will be a 4-turn warrior/settler factory, and Tarsus will be a 6-turn warrior/settler factory. When the game gets irrigated someday (quite a ways away), one of the irrgated cows can get mined again to get both cities to 5fpt. But I'm still thinking about this...

You've got quite a few possibilities, but none of them are making Tarsus into a four turn warr/sett factory. It is already losing one of four shields to corruption. At size five, it can be at 10spt, but lose one to corruption. At size six, it will only be at 11spt (unless you give it all three cows, expand the borders somehow, or don't have it at 5fpt), and will lose 2spt to corruption. Best scenario at size 5 without taking all three cows is 9spt after corruption. There's just no good way to turn it into a warr/sett combo right now.

Hatt can easily be a 4 turn warr/sett factory using two cows, but then Tarsus is at best, a 6 turn sett factory (one cow) with some random military tossed into the mix. You can use both as 4 turn sett factories by chopping/irrigating the game and only giving one cow to Hatt, but neither will be pushing out any military at all.

You've already got Babs on your front porch, with Portugal and the Russians on either side. On Demigod, you don't have nearly as much time to screw around. By the time you get two 4 turn settler factories up and running, not only will you be short on military, but the AI will probably settle right next to your capitol...fun stuff.

My advice? Well, I'd set up Hatt to be the 4 turn warr/sett combo, using two cows (one irrigated). I'd give an irrigated cow to Tarsus, and just have it pop settlers and workers in between military. You've got a lot of close neighbors, I don't know if setting up two four turn settler factories is really warranted, especially with the lack of military you'd have at that point with neither of those two cities being able to produce military. Both cities would be wasting many shields on the settler builds, and you'd have to go and chop that game as well as irrigate a useless grassland to boot.

Pink dot is probably a bad idea as well. Being in culture conflict with two Bab cities is probably not the best idea on Demigod.

Just to let you know, if you had not popped the settler, (the GH gave me CB), the Babs would have settled two spots NE of where Tarsus currently is. Yeah, I couldn't resist playing your starting save with all those cows around. ;)

Thanks, Ginger Ale! That was what I was thinking, although I couldn't have said it so clearly. I disagree with you on one point -- Tarsus cannot be a 4-turn settler/warrior factory because it will go down to size 4 when it builds the settler...meaning it can't build the warrior. It also can't build the warrior first (at size 5) because of corruption. So I think the best we can do is...

Go back and irrigate two of the cows. I think then, for the short term, Hattusas will be a 4-turn warrior/settler factory, and Tarsus will be a 6-turn warrior/settler factory. When the game gets irrigated someday (quite a ways away), one of the irrgated cows can get mined again to get both cities to 5fpt. But I'm still thinking about this...

Sorry, I forgot: you bulid the warrior before the settler, then it will work. :)

Sorry, I forgot: you bulid the warrior before the settler, then it will work.
Er, like shadow just said (hi shadow!) at size 5 it can work 3bgs, 1 irr cow, 1 mined cow...for 10 shields before waste. Since it will assuredly have a smidge of waste, 1-2 shields, it can't make that 1-turn warrior... :)

Thanks for the analysis Ginger & Shadow. Wish I had the ability or planning to sit down and do that sort of analysis.

Sorry guys. I guess I need my idiot's express card back from you A-K. I've never had so many food bonuses and didn't expect the other city so soon. I guess that's what dman gets for not wanting to go first.... :rolleyes:

It seemed to me that all of the AI with the exception of the Babylonians and Ottomans maybe had bad starts (ie. jungle, marsh and/or desert). So we might be able to back track and it not hurt us so bad. I think that we should go with Ginger's plan and go from there. With basically a 2-turn settler factory. We'd be able to fill in every gap on the map. Now we just need a place to get workers to improve the rest of the terrain and military to defend and conquer everything

Jeez... we play DG, and we get to balance out the major DG starting bonus on our FIRST TURN?! And 3 cows, Game, 6 BGs, two gold hills, in our city radius? Man... we should be playing this at Sid :) Any level below would be a shoo-in for an OCC, I'd guess.

I have it will read Tubby's log and play tonight...
Give me some ideas as well...

Sorry about the mining. I wasn't thinking I guess. I'm glad you guy yelled at me instead of dman!!!

So, that's kind of image I made of myself :lol:
Yeah Tubby, i was going to yell on those 3 cows mined, but then again with best startup location i saw in very long time and free settler I almost wished you messed things up more than you actually did. :) .

Basically, I do agree with Ginger Ale :thanx: and we will follow that plan.
Hattutas - 4 turn settler factory; Tarsus spits settlers/workers/military in and between.
Unlike the TR02 our neigbours are so close and it won't fill each and every square... We will be lucky if we get first ring cities built and then some before we have to start fighting for survival.


What can we do on DemiGod????

Launch space ship perhaps to avoid extermination... I know i don't sound like myself, just kidding :) . But i think we should at least decide if this is going to be a military type of victory or peaceful one. or is it too early and we will change our minds?



Roster:
Tubby Rower - mined too many cows
Dman - up
Minute Man - on deck
Mach
Bede
A-K
eldar

I suggest to change roster a little and put Bede between Minute Mand and Mach.
This way trainers will alternate trainees and help us to keep this game under control better.

Yellow dot looks good for moving near the dyes. Need to give this more thought. Be interesting to see where dman takes this.
It is tempting to move yellow dot one tile west to get dyes into city radius.
That should be our next city in any rate, before Porto claims the land.

Then we will need to get a city south of Hattutas to claim wines and the next one for silks.

I don't feel good about having undefended cities and bab warrior lurking nearby. On DG level that's just clear text invitation for them...
@Tubby: Was it clear where that warrior was heading? If i don't change production from settler to military now it will be too late next turn.

I hate having Babylon as direct neigbours. With their cheap temples and libraries they will certainly become cultural monsters.. Given chances, We will have to deal with them before anybody else.

Our UU - 3men chariot... But as usually we will have to change our government type before entering GA. Nice timing as in TR02 is preferred.

I'm still trying to figure out the start. Just to be a :devil:, what if there's not much more land out there in the fog? what good's a settler pump gonna do? Having said that, Hattutas - 4 turn settler factory; Tarsus spits settlers/workers/military in and between.
I like the plan.

But i think we should at least decide if this is going to be a military type of victory or peaceful one. or is it too early and we will change our minds?

I'm OK with the military victory, but it probably is too early to decide.

I suggest to change roster a little and put Bede between Minute Mand and Mach.
This way trainers will alternate trainees and help us to keep this game under control better.

What, you don't trust me not to screw things up, so you need somebody who actually has some idea how to play this game to go after me? :lol: I'm afraid you're probably right, though....

What, you don't trust me not to screw things up, so you need somebody who actually has some idea how to play this game to go after me? :lol: I'm afraid you're probably right, though....

I trust you. ;)
it is more to ensure that one of the "trainers" actually opens the save and provides some suggestions to the next player :)

I think we can modify dot map by moving yellow dot one tile west and cyan dot north. This way we still will have tight city placement and claim all BGs with no expansion needed.
Blue dot i would move one tile west closer to Hattitus.

Save comes first (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_dman_2550BC.SAV)

Pre-turn:
Push lux slider up to 20%

IBT: For a second i had a very bad feeling :twitch: forgetting to switch Tarsus to military unit, but we are lucky and bab warrior is heading away. Russian SoD (2 warriors covered with spear) are moving towards Hattutas

T1. 2950BC Worker to ming BG.

IBT. Russian SoD moves south

T2. 2900BC Hattutas granary->warrior.

T3. 2850BC. Worker finished roading BG. Move to BG south from Hattutas. We have 3 workers - this is good. It will be important though to use them in most efficient way. Babylon has two workers but won't sale. Spain has Wheel!!!!
oh... no sale is possible. I just hope we get writing 1st and sell it around. No republic slingshot is possible on DG, so don't even try to hold for writing - sell it ASAP if we are the 1st to get it.

T4. 2800BC. hattutas warrior->warrior; Tarsus settler->Warrior. Sending settler towards Yellow dot. Still hasn't decided on best location. Babylon now has 3 workers for sale. THey are either having major barb infestation or they are at war. No technological changes. lux slider down to 10%

IBT: Arrgh!! Barbarian shows up west from us threatening settler.

T5. 2750BC I have to take warrior of hattutas and bump lux slider to 30%. Hattutas has grown to pop 4

T6. 2710BC. Hattutas warrior->settler in 4. Move citizen from Game to river side BG to max gold. Worker mined BG moved and started irrigating cow.
Major technological advances happened. RUssia and Porto know IW and Myst. Porto also has 2 workers on sale. Babylon has 3 workers on sale. Spain still has exclusive on Wheel and nobody will trade even if i drop our sci. slider
to 0. I sould Spain Masonry for 25 gold just to be able to keep researching writing on Max.

T7. 2670BC. Scout evades barbarians.

IBT. Barb warrior decided to go worker hunting near Tartus, but still few tiles away.

T8. 2639BC. Ugarit founded one tile west from originally proposed yellow dot switched to warrior. We popped the barb hut and got 25gold. Hattutas grew to pop 5. I have to give him all 3 cows to get +5gpt. Settler in 2. Lux slider is up to 30%. Writing in 7. AIs did the trick they love to do and sold all techs around. So everybody is up at least 3 techs now.

IBT. Now, this is cool and never seen before. Fortified barb warrior killed 4 (four) portugese warriors and stays alive. :clap:
Stack of 3 more porto warriors are moving our direction. Another barb warrior directly treatens our worker.

T9. 2590BC. I have to move a warrior from Tarsus to cover our worker.

IBT. Porto warrior finally kills offending barb.

T10. 2550BC. Ok, all workers finished doing something. I decided to rename them for easy reference.
So here we go... Moe finished mining BG->road it. Curly finished mining BG move it across the river to Tartus towards another BG. And finally Larry finished irrigating cow and moves to river side BG.
Hattutas settler->Warrior. Move settler south towards Wine.. i wasn't sure if i need to supply it with ecscort, but then i saw russian SoD and decided to let him go alone - russians would take care of all barbs down there. (Only
problem if russia decides to declare on us if we settle right next to their SoD). I really want to get writing 1st and if i send warrior to cover settler i would have to raise lux slider therefore lowering sci. slider. Right now we have writing in 5 and lets keep it that way. But don't be lux slider shy if you have to. (never hire clowns, ever)

Post-turn: Ugarit should build warrior->worker->barracks. All new cities should probably use the same order build.
Workers to improve land around new cities and start pumping chariots/horses (I hope by that time we will have wheel)
We can decide if Hattutas should change to settler. But we are really thin on millitary and there are too many AI warriors running around. So we might want to get a warrior from hattutas before starting on next settler.
We should keep building reg. warriors in Tarsus to cover settlers produced in hattutas and for MP purposes. Once we have enough we can build something else in Tarsus.
Worker south from Hattutas once finished road should get wines connected before doing anything else.
I moved one of the scouts back. He should explore lands south from us.

@Minute Man: This is important:

1. Always MM around Hattutas each and every turn to make it efficient settler factory.
Check Hattutas every turn and move a citizen from Game to river-side BG if it doesn't hurt production. (that will give us extra gold). 2. Get writing ASAP. Once you get writing trading order must be:
a) trade with AI who has all technologies but has no money. Get us much as you can for writing.
b) start selling writing from the wealthiest AIs to the poorest ones (writing will drop in price each time, so you want to make sure you get to the wealthy ones first).
c) get those workers if Babylon still has them (or anybody else for that matter) even if that mean we have to pay for them in addition to the techs. The more workers we have the better.
3. Do not use all workers improving a single city. Spread them around.
Larry-Do Hattutas improvements until everything is mined/roaded for settler factory then move to the next city.
Curly to continue impoving around Tarsus
Moe to connect wines and start improving around new southern city.
Well... You get the point :)
4. I suggest to ignore irrigating second cow. Doesn't look like we are in urgent need in second settler factory. Improve unimproved tiles first. This is debatable though.

Screnies for the curious crowd:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03-2550BC.JPG
P.S. This map looks like Pangea... Tubby, are you sure we are playing continents???? I doubt so.

Fortified barb warrior killed 4 (four) portugese warriors and stays alive :cool:

Moe finished mining BG->road it. Curly finished mining BG move it across the river to Tartus towards another BG. And finally Larry finished irrigating cow and moves to river side BG.

naming workers after my followers? :crazyeye: :lol:

never hire clowns, everunless you're in late game anarchy...

Once we have enough we can build something else in Tarsus.
maybe a rax?

I like red circle on grapes better than red dot. Would be same distance from capital as Tarsus and thus have same corruption? Does that make sense? Does it hold for Conquests? Also save a couple of worker turns connecting the lux.

I really hate early games above Emperor. Much more fun to MM when cops and CE are around. Understand the need, just venting.

Future thought for a city. On the fog near the surplus dyes? Trade goods?

Surrogate roster duty since Tubby's off in balmy Chicago (as per dman's mod):

Tubby Rower - mined too many cows
Dman - just played
Minute Man - up to expansion
Bede - still making lists, keeps him out of jail
Mach - hanging out
AK - saber broken, bought cutlass today, police out front, mumbling about disturbing the peace
eldar - maintaining low profile for now

RCP does not apply in Conquests.

not even for the first ring?

Thanks for the roster update A-K.... I'll be heading out tomorrow and this is probably the last time I'll check in until at least Thursday night.

Great job with a bad start dman. Sorry I couldn't have passed you off three cities and a settler ;)

@ A-K how is the black-outs going with all of that hitting your head with the sword???

It is not the Admiral's head we need to worry about. That qualifies as a useless appendage anyway. But if he cuts off a digit....watch out.

A note on settlement distances: There is a really funky interplay between distance and rank (founding order) in C3C. The one thing you don't want to do is build a later town within the distance to the nearest productive towns as that will increase corruption in the older towns further out. Does that make sense? As I said it is funky. And I may even have it backwards. But that is one of the factors that makes "settle from the outside in" a tricky approach to take.

Tubby's off in balmy Chicago
It actually was nice and balmy today -- felt like the first day of spring. But it's supposed to get cold & wet the next coupla days, sorry tub...

Not much else to say. I like the dotmap -- I like red dot where it is, since the wines will give us that extra food. And I like the worker dispositions. Keep them workers apart. And good luck MinuteMan!

My job for tomorrow: stare at the c3c corruption equations in the war academy...

OK, I got it. I'm a bit exhausted from my SGOTM6 turns, so I don't think I'll get this played until tomorrow night. Will try to follow your advice, dman.

And I like the red dot where it is, too, but that might change when we see more of the territory around there.

A note on settlement distances: There is a really funky interplay between distance and rank (founding order) in C3C. The one thing you don't want to do is build a later town within the distance to the nearest productive towns as that will increase corruption in the older towns further out.

Well, adding a closer town will make all the further towns more corrupt, true. But I didn't think the order towns were founded makes any difference in the overall corruption (aside from being used as a tie-breaker with two towns at the same distance) - all that matters is the distance to the capital and the number of towns that are closer.

Well, adding a closer town will make all the further towns more corrupt, true. But I didn't think the order towns were founded makes any difference in the overall corruption (aside from being used as a tie-breaker with two towns at the same distance) - all that matters is the distance to the capital and the number of towns that are closer.

That was true for PTW.
In C3C the order in which towns were built also play role..
That is why different towns at the same RCP radius have different corruption level in C3C. There is an article on C3C corruption i placed link in 5Grams SG to

Well, yes, like I said, if two towns are the same distance from the capital, then founding order is used to break the tie, and the first one founded has a lower rank. But for towns at different distances, AFAIK, the order in which they were founded doesn't matter.

I am not entirely sure about this. Alexman's calculations make absultely sense, and I've seen no btter model so far (besides, it is how it was intended to work, at least according to what has been said during beta).
Nowever, I notice in almost any game that captured AI capitals have less corruption than the cities surrounding them, even if those are closer to your Palace city.
For any cities founded later than capital, the founding date only applies in case of a tie - but IMHO not for cities founded at 4000BC.

Thanks, DocT!
I've never noticed it and this is something i never heard before...
Definitely a kudos for this piece of information.

That's interesting; I had never heard that either. All I know about corruption comes from Alexman's article. But I just looked at a couple of my old save games, and as far as I can tell, the corruption in captured AI capitals is about the same as the surrounding cities. Not really a large sample size, though.

@M-Man: You probably should update your signature ;)

I just checked a recent save where I was surprised about the corruption (from LK88; all cities have 2 corruption reducers btw, and are in WltKD; founding date in that order):
Moscow is distance 16 from the capital, no FP equivalent in between: 9/48
Leptis Minor is at 16, but next to 2 FP cities: 3/18
Argos is same distance, even close to a FP city: 5/19
No other cities at distance 16. Not surprising Moscow has a lower corruption than Argos, but the extent is surprising IMHO.

But:
Tihuanaco @13: 2/11

I admit, this does indeed not seem to differ from the proposed corruption formula - but, it indicates a lot of rounding issues are involved here. Moscows gets 14gpt from the Lighthouse tourism; thus, keeping cities with Ancient wonders is worth it. Corruption seems to be rounded up, not down; because of that, cities with mediocre commerce are substantially more corrupted than those with lots of. And since Ancient Wonders are usually found in AI capitals, I supposed those are less corrupt. Maybe they are, but I can't prove it from this sample ;).
In any case, the impact of a 4000BC founding date compared to a city at same distance founded in 1300BC (even if there are only a few cities at that same distance) is huge; in this example, the older city is about 1/3 less corrupt!

IHT - 2550 BC

Decide to go ahead with the warrior in Hattusas, since all those AI troops running around make me nervous. MM Hattusas to work the river for an extra gold, since we don't need the extra shield for a warrior. Agree that we need Tarsus more as a military factory than a settler factory, so will keep mining around there.

1 - 2510 BC

Russian SoD moves to the SE, so our settler has a clear path. A Dutch warrior is now in view of our western scout. William is up The Wheel but nothing else.

Nice thing about playing at this level...when a barb pops out of the fog next to your scout, you can run and hide behind one of the numerous AI warriors in the vicinity. :)

Move our settler south, and this is what I see...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-scarybarb.jpg

What was that about not needing to worry about barbs, dman? :hmm: Nothing to do but hope the Russians manage to take this guy out.

2 - 2470 BC

The Russian spear and first warrior take out barbs to their south, then the final warrior takes out that barb...with one hit point left. Whew. That'll delay our settling there by a turn, but it sure beats the alternative.

Hattusas warrior->settler. Tarsus warrior->warrior.

3 - 2430 BC

That darn Russian warrior fortified on the red dot to heal. I really should have seen that coming. :wallbash: So I'll found one space to his NE, as I don't want to waste a food bonus by settling on the wines.

4 - 2390 BC

Ugarit warrior->worker.

Writing comes in, and nobody else has it yet. :D OK, step right up, Minute Man's Tech Emporium is now open for business! Get Mysticism and The Wheel from the Dutch, Iron Working from Babylon, 197 gold (and not a penny more) from Portugal, 52 gold from Spain, and 42 gold from Russia. Osman is broke, so he gets left out.

Now for the bad news...we have neither horses nor iron. The nearest source of horses is right next to Moscow. The closest iron is by Guimaraes, which is just west of Ugarit...and Henry also has another iron and is within range of two more horses (both too far to our SW to be able to get). I wonder who our first war is going to be with...

Not quite sure what to research next, but with all these rivers around, our economy is doing very well, so I decide to gamble and go for Philo next.

Harran founded, set to warrior. Need to raise lux to 30% to keep Hattusas happy at size six.

5 - 2350 BC

Tarsus warrior->warrior.

6 - 2310 BC

Hattusas settler->warrior. Hattusas is now making 10 spt, so we can actually get a warrior and a settler in four turns. So I change Tarsus to a barracks.

Portugal and Spain now know HBR.

Our scout has uncovered not one but two flood plain wheats SW of Harran. I'm actually not quite sure what we're going to do with all that food, but I have to go for it. So I start the new settler off in that direction.

7 - 2270 BC

Hattusas warrior->settler.

8 - 2230 BC

:sleep:

9 - 2190 BC

Harran warrior->worker. Ugarit worker->barracks.

I'd like to use our new worker to connect the dyes, but a barb just wandered out of the fog to the west, so have to send him east instead.

10 - 2150 BC

A barb horseman comes out of the fog and kills our northern scout. :(

Hattusas settler->warrior.

Here's the current situation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-2150BC.jpg

dman's green and blue dots still look good, though if we do settle on the blue dot, we won't be able to get the silks, as there's a Russian city whose borders have already expanded to claim them. We'll probably want a city near the red dot before too long, as it's be nice to have a port.

I left the settler unmoved so we can discuss where to send him. I recommend the green dot. If you send a warrior to accompany him, you'll need to raise lux to prevent Hattusas from rioting.

The other settler has reached the wheats, but I'm not quite sure where the best spot is to build the city. I think I'd go one more space SW, but where he's standing would work, too.

HBR hasn't spread any further yet. We are still up techs on Hammurabi (Wheel) and Osman (Writing), so there may be a trade opportunity there in the future.

I haven't established any embassies yet, but with all this available cash, maybe we want to? Still haven't figured out when the best time is to do that.

Roster check:

Tubby Rower - sunning himself in Chicago
Dman - bailed out by Cathy's boys
Minute Man - just played
Bede - up!
Mach - getting ready
AK - cutlass broken, searching for more durable weaponry
eldar - still maintaining a low profile

City placement isn't my forte. Haven't had coffee yet, still groggy. Plant 2 wheat city in place for later use as worker factory? Moving SW pulls in another hill, but building in place keeps the CxxC spacing which is nice for defensive purposes. Once the rax are up, maybe it's time to build some archers and go get some resources. Don't see the need to trade anymore until we get Philo.

At some point I'll have a look and make some (no doubt ill-advised) suggestions. My weekend was largely taken up with :beer: and [party] and :dance:, and no Civ. Last night was back to COTM10.

I think a review of my current SGs is in order tonight, if my wife lets me!

Neil. :cool:

Good job M-Man...
The only one thing i would do differently - i wouldn't bother about that wheat
but rather go for blue/green dot cities instead. We have a lot of food already and right now we need shields and low corruption. Not saying it was a wrong decision, but that city won't do us much good for quite some time.

I am sure old friar Bede will figure out city placements ;) .

I felt we wouldn't have neither horses nor iron...
Startup location was too good to be true already as it is.

I guess we will have to start a little war against Porto first to get us some iron and then move Dutches a little to claim those horses at some point.
But we will see how it goes.
I think another important city location should be W-W-NW from Tarsus.
That city will help cover all those tiles between Ugarit and Tarsus without need for culture builds and we will get extra luxes for trading purposes.

I would put blue dot city where it is... We will get those silks later. I'd rather have tighter city builds at the moment.

Oh, Have you guys noticed. Unless this is a large map we are definitely playing pangea again... I believe we've met 6 civilizaitons already on the same landmass.. It just can't be continental map.

Unless this is a large map we are definitely playing pangea againAccording to the espionage screen, there's only one civ we haven't met.

Got it.

Following orders.

I am going to go ahead and settle the wheats as it does provide a springboard to the west and the horse resource and the shield potential is pretty good, too.

W-W-NW of Tarsus is a sound choice and will be next on the list after green dot then blue dot.

Oh Yeah....
It would be silly try to move settler from that location now...
Settle to grab those wheats...
What do you guys think we should do on research after philosophy??
Perfect situation if we could grab math before we have Philo and then get expensive Currency or construction as free tech.
Since it looks like we are going to have some early archer wars we may want to put research to 0 after that and start building stacks of spears/arhers/pults to get to the resources.
We really have to get hold of iron before MA and research will be skyrocketing

We already have a few turns invested in Philosophy so getting Currency as our freebie will depend on the trades available in the next five. Ideal would be getting to Philosophy then "Big Picture" trading for Math.

Not sure that setting research to 0 is best step as long as we have the cash on hand to support the research budget and the miilitary build-up. There is not much to do with cash in the AA before the government change anyway.

Concur that acquiring iron and horses is crucial.

Currency is a better bet than Construction - the AI will usually go for Construction first.

After our Philo freebie I see two potential paths for research:
1. Min run at Lit while Harran prebuilds Glib or;
2. Max run at Rep (gotta grab horses to make this worthwhile)

Be nice if we could con Hammi into an alliance to get him into a GA.

To paraphase Mr. Murphy "Whatcha gonna do now d-man, done dropped your horses when you went out the window?" ;) Looks like we have clear lanes for the wheeled stone throwers when the algebra permits construction.

With 4 scientific AI, initial MA trades and our own research are gonna be 'impotent' as Curly would say.

After our Philo freebie I see two potential paths for research:
1. Min run at Lit while Harran prebuilds Glib or;
2. Max run at Rep (gotta grab horses to make this worthwhile)

Be nice if we could con Hammi into an alliance to get him into a GA.

To paraphase Mr. Murphy "Whatcha gonna do now d-man, done dropped your horses when you went out the window?" ;) Looks like we have clear lanes for the wheeled stone throwers when the algebra permits construction.

With 4 scientific AI, initial MA trades and our own research are gonna be 'impotent' as Curly would say.

:lol: Yeah... what am i going to do :lol:

Agree with Admiral... with 4 sci AIs we will have very hard time to level with techs after MAs start...
Great Library would work out nicely here and Harran is a good city to build it.
We can build granary in Tarus after all, build workers there and join them to harran to outperform AIs productionwise.
I am not proposing building Gr. Lib though, just a thought.

Edited to delete double-post, See next page for log.

Agree with you Bede, it is either all or nothing...
Quoting myself from previous post:


Since it looks like we are going to have some early archer wars we may want to put research to 0 after that and start building stacks of spears/arhers/pults to get to the resources.


it's okay to do full speed research in AA but once everyone in MAs 0% is much better IMHO, I think we will save more money that way.

and BTW nice playing ;) .
What are our war plans?
Should we sign Porto to fight Spain as well...
That way they will spend extra military they have in 20+ turns we should be able to turn on them to get that iron.

Following orders and building where indicated until the big news of 1990BC when our brave and lonely scout in the tundra finds this jewel:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_1990_00.jpg

One more tech we don't have to trade for.

Then in 1950BC Philosophy comes in right on the button so I open the Big Picture window and make this trade:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_1950_00.jpg

Then select Currency as the free knowledge. Once the interturn is over it's back to the Trade screen and sell Philosophy to anybody has money, then set the research to Literature at maximum as we are going to need libraries and markets to keep pace with the nerd nations in the future.

With all that money in the bank open embassies with everybody (all but Russia are building some kind of wonder in their capitols, she's building a settler) and it is a good thing I did as this message comes in from the Foreign Office:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_1910_00.jpg

Of course I suggest she ride off on Rosinate for such a Quixote-ish move and she tilts at our windmill and declares war...

So place a call to all our new ambassadors and build alliances with Ottomans and Babylon against Spain. I pay them in gold per turn rather than our leading edge tech as I want to keep them interested and I can always sell them knowledge for our money back later. It costs 23gpt (9gpt to BAbylon and 14gpt to Ottomans) but there is still enough in the treasury to support maximum research (at a deficit), which can always be made up by peddling Currency around.

Here is what Currency can do for us (trade not made) if we think it is time.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_1750_00.jpg

I am not sure about making a deal for Map Making as it is knowledge we can't really use right now.

Running my eyes across the map finds this source of horses in the far NW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_1750_01.jpg

Two more towns from the W-W-NW Tarsus spot (warrior and settler are one move out from there) and we have our horses.

My approach to research at this level is a little different than AdmK's or d-man's. As long as we have the cash in hand I like to push the science budget as hard as possible. The premium built into AI owned monopoly techs at Demi-god makes minimum research a loser's game. Better to put everything you can afford into the science budget as it does buy you a discount when the AI out-researches you to a technology. Or put nothing at all. The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything. That is why markets and libraries are important as both structures multiply the return on commerce.

Our workforce is lagging behind our population growth BTW so having that town on the wheat as a worker farm is going to pay off.

Note on trading technique (as buyer): always before opening negotiations go to the F1 screen and set all sliders to 0 ( or you can leave entertainment where it is). Then make the best deal you can as you can always move the sldiers back up where they belong afterward.

And don't be afraid of deficit research that looks like it will over-run the available cash. You want to pile up the beakers just as fast as you can, when you are one turn away from going broke you can always turn it down. It can a risky tactic when the neighbors are likely to make cash demands, however.

What are our war plans?
Should we sign Porto to fight Spain as well...
That way they will spend extra military they have in 20+ turns we should be able to turn on them to get that iron.

I don't see a need to pull Portugal in as he hasn't hooked up his iron yet anyway.

As for the war plans I would let the eastern bloc fight it out and when Babylon has pissed away their Golden Age fighting against the Spanish take them down first and get the iron at Babylon instead.

The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything. light bulbs go on...

Note on trading technique (as buyer): always before opening negotiations go to the F1 screen and set all sliders to 0 ( or you can leave entertainment where it is). Then make the best deal you can as you can always move the sldiers back up where they belong afterward I do this too. I usually turn the research down when there's about 75 left in the bank in case of demands.

That's some nasty jungle to hack through for horses. Gonna need those 2 wheat.

@ Bede - nice work getting Hammi into his GA soon if he's not there already.

That's some nasty jungle to hack through for horses. Gonna need those 2 wheat.


Not so bad. Settle at the bend of the river. Then NW-NW-NW-SW (knight's move) and build there. Then NW-NW-NW-NW (knight's move on the other leg) and you only have two jungles to road and you have your horses. No need to cut anything as the citizens can go fishing.n Buy map making build a harbor and those towns are as productive as they are going to be for some time then just use them to build boats.


@ Bede - nice work getting Hammi into his GA soon if he's not there already.

A trip in Bede's Taurus (wasn't that what Dr Who called his conveyance?) reveals that Hammi kicked off his GA in 2670.

@Bede: Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else???

@Bede: Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else???

Just wanted to point out that they are there and accessible.

We are about out of room for new towns in as we are getting pushed from east and west. IIRC, don't have the map open, north and south are the only directions we have left.

Settle at the bend of the river. Then NW-NW-NW-SW (knight's move) and build there. Then NW-NW-NW-NW (knight's move on the other leg) and you only have two jungles to road and you have your horses. No need to cut anything as the citizens can go fishing.n Buy map making build a harbor and those towns are as productive as they are going to be for some time then just use them to build boats.
light bulbs going off again... I'm too linear and was thinking of a heroic worker effort to road there
Are you suggesting to push to get those horses before settling new cities anywhere else Don't know about anywhere else, but definitely a high priority.

Ok sounds good..
I thought we were running of space...
We should start building markets one at a time and libraries only in cities that are at danger of flipping... Rest of our towns show start military production as soon as it makes practical sence...
Archers/some spears/some pults..
I really think we should declare on porto..
Take that iron town raze and replace it and make peace in 3 or 4 turns..
That will bring us iron much faster than if we went after Babylon.

Going for literature so soon probably means we are not getting Great library in this game.

Ok, I got it. I'll play it tomorrow night. Let's see, should be pretty straightforward turns -- build up Hattusha towards a worker farm, and military factories elsewhere. Settle toward those horses on the min-jungle-road plan. Start building libs in pressured cities. Be judicious with the workers. Turn down research when our gold reserves start getting too low. And stay out of trouble. :mischief:

Should we settle toward the horses before we settle a coastal town on Old Red Dot? I think so...

For what it's worth, I agree with Bede -- attack the Babs first. They have better lands than Portugal, as well as spices.

Bede's argument against the GreatLib:

Great Library cost 400 shields yields 6cpt
Three libraries costs 240 shelds yields 9cpt.
Three marketplaces costs 300 shields yields zero cpt but raises commerce per roaded river tile by 1.

Great Library expires with Education and offers no boost to scientific output.

Three libraries in all those riverside towns will boost science output by 1 beaker for every river field roaded and worked (even in despotism, more in Republic). Add the same number of marketplaces and the return to the treasury goes up to pay for the libraries (again 1 gold piece for every river tile worked). Some of that money goes into research depending on where the science slider is set.

In short three libraries and three marketplaces will generate more net beakers than you will ever get from the Great Library over the course of the path to Education.

The key is only to build those improvements in towns where they will do the most good, say where gold lost to corruption is less than 30% or so.

Bede's arguments against Great Library are good (although i don't agree with all of them - Gr. Lib gives you techs right away when with 3 or more lib/markets you are dragging way behind AIs. Gr. Lib - superb source $$$ when you can resell the freebies to the rest of the world). I am not suggesting to build it. I truly believe training games should stay away from wonders.

But...
Great library is really good for something else - xOTMs where you can use all the "dirty" tricks.
Build G.Lib. put research to 0 and start collecting cash.
Before Chivalry use the cash to short rush horses
after chivalry (comes for free from G.L.) use cash to do "resource disconnect" trick to upgrade horses to knights.
With such a setup games up to DemiGod level usually won before you need Cavalry.

Again, We are playing a different game here, so I agree no Gr. Lib.
But, in production cities always build markets before libraries. Money before science in early ages (we've got to support that early republic we will become in a little while) and currently we should do it just one at a time.
once we hit our golden ages we will catch up with everything.

Gr. Lib gives you techs right away when with 3 or more lib/markets you are dragging way behind AIs. Gr. Lib - superb source $$$ when you can resell the freebies to the rest of the world).

But, in production cities always build markets before libraries. Money before science in early ages (we've got to support that early republic we will become in a little while) and currently we should do it just one at a time.
once we hit our golden ages we will catch up with everything.

I'll argue that with markets/libraires and the riverside fields we have here that we will not fall behind the other nations so long as we high power research and trade judiciously and boldly. And in my experience, aka IMHO, the Great Library is a poor source of trade bait due to the rich get richer effect. Yes you get free(?) knowledge but only after the value has been squeezed from it and the two wealthiest nations have already researched/purchased it. And you end up with chump change on this kind of map. Better to let somebody else build it and you pay the chump change.

The other thing I have noticed, but not quantified, is that when the human player builds the Great Library the tech pace slows down. This is probably related to the propensity of human players to feed gold into the world economy, a propensity diminished by the Great Library.

Now on an islands map the equation changes.

Concur that markets first is the way to build unless the border expansion is needed. Just remember that the flipping thing is not related as much to "local" culture as it is to "total" culture.


For what it's worth, I agree with Bede -- attack the Babs first. They have better lands than Portugal, as well as spices.

And the Babylonians will become the culture monster a lot faster than Portugal ever will. Not to mention the spices for my curry. And Russia only becomes a problem after the High Middle Ages.

Preflight -- Turn on notepad, MapStat, and Joan Jett. Pour scotch (rocks). Oh yeah, I'm ready to rule.

MM looks good, of course.
Machridates hits space.
(I) Hattusha worker --> granary
Babs discover Map Making

T1 (1725BC) -- Make this trade...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM_Babs_trade.JPG
I hope that's ok, they wouldn't take anything less, but they're all techs that everyone else had, and I feel they would have gotten this stuff from someone else on the IT if I didn't do it. The Babs don't have horses, so I don't mind giving them HBR. They wouldn't give me gpt...
(I) Hattusas settler --> warrior

T2 (1700BC) -- found Ankuwa, start worker
(I) Hattusas warrior --> settler
Tarsus archer --> archer

T3 (1675BC) -- zzz
(I) zzz

T4 (1650BC) -- Dodging a barb warrior near the knight city spot
(I) zzz

T5 (1625BC) -- Warrior finds barb camp next to knight city spot. The nice Ports have sent help!
(I) Hattusas settler --> warrior
Tarsus archer --> archer
Ports built the Colossus in Lisbon, and a bit o' cascading follows.

T6 (1600BC) -- Our warrior takes out the barb camp.
(I) Hattusas warrior --> settler
Aleppo worker --> rax

T7 (1575BC) -- found Kadesh on knight spot, start worker
(I) Lit comes in, start const at breakeven (we're down to 59g)

T8 (1550BC) -- zzz
(I) Tarsus archer --> archer
Ugarit rax --> archer

T9 (1525BC) -- zzz
Hattusas settler --> warrior

T10 (1500BC) -- found Adana


Quiet turns. I leave an unmoved settler in Hattusas for the next player. F3 says there are barb tribes near Kadesh; that's where the warrior is going, to find it. Our population has outgrown our workers -- I think maybe the granary in Hattusha can be rushed soon, that should help. We are strong compared to the Babs. The Russians are down Map Making, which we could sell them for chump change. Er, that's all I can think of saying.

Machridates, he died old. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_mach_1500BC.SAV)

Home sweet home...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_1500_hsh.JPG

Turn on notepad, MapStat, and Joan Jett. Pour scotch (rocks). Oh yeah, I'm ready to rule.

Are you sure you're not an idiot? This sounds like something I might do. Sorry to be insulting. ;)

delayed reaction: didn't Dr. Who drive a phone booth? Weren't those rolling garbage cans ancestors of R2D2?

Need to consider this then post. As Sir Clive might put it, "I'm a bit knackered tonight; please, sir, may we have a dot map?"

Are you sure you're not an idiot?
Am I sure? I never admit to being sure about anything. :) Try talking to my girlfriend -- she'll talk your ear off on this topic. :lol:

Dotmap? Well, we're running out of room. Next city on the horses, then one SW-SW-SW of Tyrana. That's all the good spots I see. Maybe we can squeeze one in S of Aleppo in the forest; besides that, we have to clear marsh. We'll want one S of Babylon someday, after we own it, but right now that spot is too close to the Bab cultural boundaries. If I was me, I would settle the two cities, then convert Hattusas into military production...and clear space the hard way. :hammer:

Try talking to my girlfriend -- she'll talk your ear off on this topic.

Been there, done that, I'm married. :lol:

Ports built the Colossus in Lisbon

I believe that's a Golden Age for Portugal. I think we should definitely attack Babylon first. :)

And, since there hasn't been a roster for a while:

Tubby Rower
dmanakho
Minute Man
Bede
Mach - just played
Admiral Kutzov - up!
eldar - on deck

got it, probably tonight.

Bede's research rant:

Put everything you can afford into the science budget as it buys you a discount when the AI out-researches you to a technology.

And I mean everything. Run a deficit until there is nothing left. Or put nothing at all. The in-betweener just doesn't help and leaves you wondering why you can't buy anything.

And break-even research (net gpt=0) will break you. It is the worst of the in-betweeners. You aren't piling up beakers fast enough and you aren't piling up any cash.

Remember that beakers are not lost when you shut research off in the middle. The "beaker bucket" remains when you close the spigot unless you change research projects.

That is why markets and libraries are important as both structures multiply the return on commerce.

Here endeth the lesson.

And it is time to start peddling Literature around, there is gold to be made and then you can turn the spending up again. It is also time to build archers and spears and pults. The towns on the Babylon border need bigger garrisons. Build a library in Tarsus BTW as it can make good use of those grasslands outside its borders. Put mines in the plains at Hattusha.

And I mean everything. Run a deficit until there is nothing left.I agree, Bede. Just...how much is "nothing left"? A-K said he stops at about 75g, in case someone demands it from us. I let it get to 50 or so, because I wanted to finish lit when we were so close.

Those gpt deals up in 7 turns, that'll add to our research...

BTW AK, FYI, I looked over the save again and I don't think I did a good job with the workers around our future worker factory. One is roading his way up north...but the other is :smoke:ing something. We need that wheat irrigated, and I think we'll need some plains mines... Here's how I work it:

1 irrigated wheat (+3f)
1 non-irrigated wheat (+2f)
2 irrigated plains (+2s)
2 mined plains (-2f +4s)
city center (+2f +1s)

That makes +5f and +5s. (The current gold situation is 2/7 lost to corruption, so hopefully the same will happen for the waste.)

Edit: Cross-edit with Bede. Mined plains...looks like we're in agreement. :)

The amount in the treasury is less important than the amount spent. If you want to keep a reserve against demands, that's cool, but don't set the slider at anything greater than 0 or less than the absolute maximum considering entertainment needs (until you can use scientists but we are a ways off from that).

BTW, the likelihood of cash demands drops once you have embassies and a decent military. We have the one, not so sure about the other. The other tiem you risk demands is when you have managed to drive an opponent into insolvency by trading for everything they have in cash and gpt, especially in strategic resource deals which they cannot re-sell. Luxury resource deals improve their economies so they can afford them, strategic resources do not. If they drop into deficit they will demand cash to make up the difference, or they will sneak attack.

Ankuwa and Kadesh should start working on libraries to get some culture.

but don't set the slider at anything greater than 0 or less than the absolute maximumFor the first time in quite awhile I spent my morning train ride staring out the window, thinking, instead of reading my book. :) Now I understand completely; I shoulda went to 0% sci. If I had done so...if/when we push the slider back to max, that same cash we pile up will go into research anyways (via a deficit), so nothing is lost there; we'll end up with much the same discount when we trade. But if we don't ever switch to max research on this tech, then we end up with nice cash. The moral: be either here or there at any given time. Lesson learned.

Ankuwa and Kadesh should start working on libraries to get some culture.That's what I figured. I just guessed that squeezing a worker out each, to get those horses hooked up sooner, was a slightly higher priority. We do have jungle roads to build, and we're still a ways away from having a functioning worker factory.

For the first time in quite awhile I spent my morning train ride staring out the window, thinking, instead of reading my bookYou don't have to worry until you start dreaming about SoD's (I'm not kidding I have actual dreams about 30+ cannons bombarding some city :crazyeye:)

I converted to the Bede standard and went for more pix than words. It took awhile.

Bella beats the losers to Poly in 1475.

@ Mach - do you road tiles first? I almost always improve them and then road unless there's a need for speed. I think Bede and D-man will back me up on this. IIRC, I got this from Cracker's War Academy article. If you want me to, I could, in a simplistic, idiot ('cause I can't use the big words like Bede) way lay it out. Although that might kill Bede and Dman in laughter...

Bella kisses Osman and makes peace in 1450.

Post 1425, Osman finishes Oracle and Willie finishes Zeus.

Willie and Hammi learn Currency. so...
Construction from Henry for Lit + 9 gpt
Lit to Willie for 170g
Lit to Osman for 93g
Lit to Cathy for 46g (what a bargain for her)
Construct to Hammi for 2 workers and 29g
Science to 100% (or the monk may call in the Inquisitors)

Henry demands 41g. Chicken Idiot caves.

Then this happens http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Cathysattack.jpg

Ask Cathy to declare or leave and she leaves.

Henry and Hammi (the evil H's) learn CoL. Cancel the Hammi Pact since he's got that nice land that we want. Kiss and make up with Bella (need to teach her how to use a toothbrush...)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bellaspeace.jpg

Trade Hammi Poly for CoL straight up. Hammi draws Feudalism as his freebie. Willie's building the Glib. Dude, we'll have Education, before you finish. Keep on :smoke:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/henrysfolly.jpg

Build Remedial City since somewhere along the line I made what should have been a team decision and started the FP in Tyranna.

Future plans:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hammi.jpg

and here's the save http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_AK_1250_BC.SAV

Nice job working up to the Bede standard, AdmK.

Get Tomoyo to show how to put the save behind Henry's left eyeball, or Izzie's left fur strap and you'll be golden..

But if we are going to put the FP anywhere it should be Tarsus, as that is now and will probably be for quite some time the leading producer of both shields and commerce.

And where's the silks and horsies, Bede want his jammies and chariot!

But if we are going to put the FP anywhere it should be Tarsus, as that is now and will probably be for quite some time the leading producer of both shields and commerce.
I did actually consider that (stop laughing dman). Putting it in Tyranna gets us a third "good city" When we hit Rep. we've got all those nice hills to work and the BG. Tarsus can be a monster without the FP. <retreats to dungeon after arguing with master> BTW, horsed should hook up next set. We may never see the silk PJ ride (Fiona will cry)

Good job admiral! :goodjob:
There is nothing else left to do but get some silk jammies and few chariots for the old friar. :)

I did actually consider that (stop laughing dman). Putting it in Tyranna gets us a third "good city" When we hit Rep. we've got all those nice hills to work and the BG. Tarsus can be a monster without the FP. <retreats to dungeon after arguing with master> BTW, horsed should hook up next set. We may never see the silk PJ ride (Fiona will cry)

You are, of course, correct as always. I am occasionally guilty of short-sightedness. I had not paid enough attention to those juicy gold hills.

I've noticed dman's up in Sid Vicious... we might lose him for a bit ;)

Ok, I'm back. Apparently everything worked fine while I was gone but everything is in "crisis mode" enought so where it has delayed my morning cup of java. I'll check back in later after reading all of the logs.

I've noticed dman's up in Sid Vicious... we might lose him for a bit ;)

Yeah, that certainly might take some time...
But i believe you are up and Tubby is on deck...
So i have couple of days in front of me. :)

I'm playing? Ooh, yeah, so I am :) Manana, manana.

Ok. Things calmed down enough at work to read through the posts and it sounds like I might be at war after eldar starts smacking some Hammi around (sounds perverted I know).

Anyway. I guess you guys did pretty well with the mined cows. Were we going to irrigate one of the other two?

Does Hammi have only 3 cities? After we take Babylon, if we could get Ashur in a peace deal, should we do that our take the 3 cities in A-K's map and then sue for peace?

Welcome back, tub. :)

IIRC, I saw four cities...one is under the fog by Ashur; you can just barely see the borders.

You are, of course, correct :eek: Are you feeling ok? I'm noting this on the PDA, the computer and the paper calender. My wife is looking at me like I've gone round the bend (again). my son just asked what 'unprecedented' meant and I told him it's when Bede agrees with me. He gave me a wierd look and rolled his eyes. :mischief:

@ eldar - I wasn't thinking of keeping Hammi's cities, I was thinking of combat settlers(Unless Hammi's got a good wonder). We can settle that sweet land better than he did.

:eek: Are you feeling ok? I'm noting this on the PDA, the computer and the paper calender. My wife is looking at me like I've gone round the bend (again). my son just asked what 'unprecedented' meant and I told him it's when Bede agrees with me. He gave me a wierd look and rolled his eyes. :mischief:


It's like my old man used to say when I got something right: "Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and again."

Okay, I got it, am playing now.

Okay, I got it, am playing now.

Wish I hadn't, though... I'll spare the pain of having to read the log first by posting a pic that sums everything up quite neatly:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_eldar_1000BC.jpg

Okay, now for what actually happened. Note that it all goes very well until turn 9:
0 1250 Pre-flight: Set Prefs, load MapStat, look at trades. Babs have Feudalism. Ouch :( Do Babs have Iron? No. I can sell CoL to the Dutch. If I don't, someone else will soon enough. Get 53g, all of his treasury, for it. There's nowhere obvious to send our Settlers now (that we won't be beaten to). Stop prevaricating and Just Get On With It!

IT: Hatt Settler->Settler.

1 1225 These are likely quiet turns. We don't have the troops to take on Babylon, just yet. 6 Archers would be a good start. Found One Horse Town. The only open spot now available is a horrible flip risk - I'll keep the next couple of Settlers ready for raze-and-replace in Babylon.

IT: Ankuwa Cat->Library.

2 1200 Zzzzz.

IT: Harran Archer->Archer, Aleppo Rax->Archer,

3 1175 Zzzzz.

IT: Ugarit Archer->Archer. Lisbon completes GLH. Heh, it'd be another GA if they hadn't already had one.

4 1150 Trade has opened up with Russia, she has spare Silks, and is backwards in tech. Too much to turn down. Trade her CoL for Silks, plus all her (14g) treasury. Means I can turn Tarsus's Clown to a Beakerhead. Our Scout found a 4th Bab city, Elippi, which is on a hill.

IT: Watch some Spanish units impale themselves on Elippi. Hatt Settler->Worker. We already have 3 spare Settlers with nowhere to go... extra Workers are always useful.

5 1125 Zzzzz.

IT: Watch some more Spain vs. Bab stuff. Very entertaining. Spanish stack outside Elippi now.

6 1100 The Ivory site east of Babylon is free. Long trek for a Settler and we'll be at war before then. I have 5 Archers and a Cat in Ankuwa, enough for a first strike at Nineveh. In place next turn, declare the turn after.

IT: Billy boy DEMANDS 45g. I give it to him. Hammi dials us up! I know what he wants, but let's see, shall we? Indeed! Alliance vs Izzy and RoP! I politely decline his offer. Hatt Worker->Worker. Harran Archer->Archer. Hattusha Granary->Worker. Kadesh Cat->Library.

7 1075 Move troops up to border (5 Archers, now 2 Cats).

IT: Bab/Spain peace. Not ideal, there'll be more to chuck at us. Aleppo Archer->Archer.

8 1050 Dial up Hammi and declare. Troops next to Nineveh.

IT: Hatt Worker->Settler. A Bab Galley pops up next to Adana - I'll switch to an Archer there to counter an invasion, if one happens. Tarsus Market->Archer. Good of our best city to join the War Effort at such an opportune moment. Ugarit Archer->Archer. Remedial Worker->Library.

9 1025 Heh, colour-blind me… it's a Russian Galley. I did wonder how the Babs got a ship that far round the world (it came from the East!).

Battle of Nineveh (Rd 1):
Cats go 2 for 2, HPs taken off a Bowman (Vet) and a Spear (Reg).
A second Reg spear shows up.
Archer 1 takes 1 HP off the Spear and dies, Bowman on top. 3 Defenders, then.
Archer 2 kills the bowman, 2 HPs lost.
Archer 3 flawlessly loses to the Spear, which promotes :(
Archer 4 does the same (no promotion though). :cry:

Stop the attack. Only 1 Archer left, 2 spears in the town.

IT: Bab bow kills an Archer. Time to bug out. Worse news... Dutch invasion in the south. Expect DoW next turn. Talk about bad timing. Hattusha Worker-Worker but I don't see how we'll keep from losing it to the Dutch in the next IT. Adana Galley->Rax. Ottos build MoM.

10 1000 Yikes, they're Dutch ACavs. This is bad. Get the obligatory out the way… ask to leave or declare, he declares. Go looking for allies. Henry first - 240g gets us his assistance. Anyone else would be a pain (units trekking across us), so Henry it will have to be. Now either our two Reg Warriors in Hattusha get lucky in the IT, or we lose it. Can't get reinforcements there because of the rivers. Dial Sci down to 50%, we still get Republic in 2, at a healthy +23gpt. Next player: pray Henry's enough of a diversion, and get peace with Hammi ASAP (that or find allies vs. Hammi but peace would be better - I don't think spending 20 turns watching one back whilst Dutch ACs hammer our other one is a good idea).

Save's down there somewhere. Knew I should've stayed in bed!

[Edit] A though (after the fact, unfortunately). Should I have turned down Sci (as I would've anyway), and offered Billy some gpt before asking him to leave?

Neil. :cool:

20 turns watching one back whilst Dutch ACs hammer our other one We have 2 backs? :lol:

Should I have turned down Sci (as I would've anyway), and offered Billy some gpt before asking him to leave?

should have tried for any type of deal where we paid the gpt. An RoP with us paying gpt may have kept him away.

We have 2 backs? :lol:

Way I see it, we have 4: the Portugese (they're off it for the time being, playing with Billyboy), the Babylonians (wouldn't play fair...), the Russians (being vewwy vewwy quiet, and going sailing with us), and the Dutch (naughty, naughty, neighbourhood bully!)

Well crap!!!! It looks like I'm up

Roster:
Tubby Rower - up!
dmanakho - on deck
Minute Man
Bede
Mach
Admiral Kutzov
eldar - just played

I have it but will wait to see what everyone thinks on the whole issue. I'm glad that we were able to get that prime real estate in the jungle.

the Russians (being vewwy vewwy quiet, it is duck season or wabbit season? (or mudbat for the more sophisticated in our little group?) :lol:

we have 4:
Miltaristic people tend to call those fronts:lol: again

Well, i am back....
So what's going on over here? :)

Not a whole lot. I'm up and we now have 4 backs according to eldar ;) . I need some advice before I play. Should we make peace with Hammi now? Since this is really my first test of getting sneak attacked without having the force to counter, what should I do? When do you get peace if you can't handle the incoming force? What is the cut-off for me knowing that we cannot handle the incoming attack??

Looks like you did pretty good in Mag 7. You guys are amazing!!!

BTW, look at the QSC from COTM9. I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised by your pupil...

We won't be able to get peace with Hammi for a couple of turns. We badly, badly, need the Horses connected because we don't have the means to counter-attack.

Not a whole lot. I'm up and we now have 4 backs according to eldar ;) . I need some advice before I play. Should we make peace with Hammi now? Since this is really my first test of getting sneak attacked without having the force to counter, what should I do? When do you get peace if you can't handle the incoming force? What is the cut-off for me knowing that we cannot handle the incoming attack??

My intuition never fails me... Have we attacked porto as i suggested, guess who Willi would be fighting now instead of us? :) . And we would have iron already connected... :rolleyes:
We will probably loose a city or two to Willi and will have hard time to recover... I can't load the save from work... Do we have MAs with someone against Babs. If we do we can't stop that war.
If you think you can control Willi's attacks for another 3 to 4 turns do it and then peace will be possible. If you can't then maybe MA against him is a better option. Again, it is hard to say without seeing the save.
@Bede and admiral: What are our options right now? Have you guys looked at the save?


Looks like you did pretty good in Mag 7. You guys are amazing!!!
Thanks, those guys are amazing not me... My turnset was a piece of cake and I am not particularly proud of fighting resourceless AIs.


BTW, look at the QSC from COTM9. I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised by your pupil... I saw that.. Good job! :goodjob: Hope to see you in the top 20 soon.

I saw that.. Good job! :goodjob: Hope to see you in the top 20 soon.
Well my scores are increasing which is a good trend. My Jason scores are as follows:

COTM 8: 196 (loss)
GOTM39: 175 (loss)
COTM 9: 4703
GOTM40: 5440
COTM10: 6984

back on topic....Should Hattusas anbd Tyrana ( and other cities not producing military) be switched to archers? If I'm not mistaken, we are far behind militarily. I'd like to not finish this game like this on my turnset.

Well, after looking at the save we are facing very unfortunate turn of events.
Therefore radical measures are needed.
I don't see a way to save Hattusha and Adana and probably also Remedial City.
Willi will simply roll over those cities.
Here is what i suggest to do:
1. Before hitting next turn move warriors out of Hattusha and Adana and send them to Harran. Move all workers away of that region to the central part of our country.
2. Gift both Hattusha and Adana to Spain. It will be easier to recapture them from Spain when we have forces built.
3. Send all military we have to Tyrana and Harran and wait for Dutch. Switch Tyrana from FP to either walls or spear also we need walls in Harran. I know lots of shields will be lost but better losing some shields than the entire game. Switch to military builds everywhere else. We will need some spears and some walls If we can't stop Dutch at this point the game is lost.

I don't know if MA against Willi was a good idea. We could simply waited 3 to 4 turns and made peace with him and then re-claimed those undefended cities from Spain again.

Such setbacks happen on harder levels, so be prepared to start another DG thread if worst happens. :)

On unrelated note..
if we survive that long upon republic research is complete make sure you sell currency to Ottomans and Russians for whatever it worth - gift them into MAs.
Then turn research down to 0 and use Republic to buy freebies they received and sell it around.
In MAs we will have to play 0 research strategy for quite a long time.

well I guess it is fitting that I would be the one to deal with this for punishment for mining all 3 cows!!!

Concur with d-man.

We are going to lose those two right out of the box. I would let the Dutch attack a defended Hattusha as that will slow down the advance, then give Adana to Spain.

Just a little note:

The Deity RoP (TM Sirian) is a long and time honored tradition and should be honored. Just because somebody shows up at your door with a couple of AC's does not always mean they are going to declare, especially at this stage of the game. Note the "not always".....but even if they do waiting that extra tick means you can move forces around for better defense, or be in a position to attack their wounded in the captured city should it come to that. The "boot" technique only works in your favor if you can hit the attackers with something strong enough to kill them.

The MA's were the best we could do. That at least will draw his attackers to a more better opponent (closer to home). When was the SoZ built BTW? He can't have many so he will run out of gas soon.

Sorry you have to take it on the chin in your own game, TR.

Disagree with Bede only on one thing... Give Hattusha to Spain as well.
This will also slow down even better them since they will have to cross foreign territory for them.
It will also save us 2 warriors - not a big deal you say, but good enough for MPs and slow them down when they take on our inner cities.
My very strong opinion - DO NOT EVEN TRY TO DEFEND Hattusha.

You might want to gift Spain Remedial city as well if you see you can't defend it.

Sorry you have to take it on the chin in your own game, TR.It's okay. I was wondering if any of my SG's were going to fall flat. I hope it doesn't happen this time. But it's bound to happen eventually.

According to A-K's log, Willie built it in 1425BC (~turn 65). We are at turn 80 now which gives him what 3 maybe 4 ACs.

Okay, I guess I learned something about diplomacy :sad:
Would some gpt and an RoP have got him off our back? Having said that, what would've happened had I done that instead?

I learned in the recent German XOTM (a few months back) gifting/trading with the AI doesn't necessarily get them off of your back. Sometimes they are just bloodthirsty. The Arabs took an undefended city while a trade was ongoing. I later found out that undefended cities were a :nono: but that's in hind sight.

As to your second question, replay those last turns if you still have the autosave and see. It would be a good lesson for us all.

Okay, I guess I learned something about diplomacy :sad:
Would some gpt and an RoP have got him off our back? Having said that, what would've happened had I done that instead?

It wouldn't help. They would have attacked anyways.
This is just the way game mechanism works and i tested it in numerious occasions. Nothing will work on the last turn after AI decided to attack (even MA against another civ I never tested MPP though) and entered your territory.

stop worker actions. Move dead worker near adana to city all others have movement points used up.
move 1 warrior in Hattusha to Tyranaand the other Harran
Gift Hattusha and Adana to Spain
Harran switched to walls.
Tyrana switched to walls...117 shields wasted (OUCH!!!)
move warrior sent to Hattusas (from gifting Adana to Harran
bump sci up to 60% to accomodate for lost citizens
Remedial City swithced to walls, but have to wait 9 turns
Hattusas swithced to archer

hit enter....

build archer in Tarsus
build walls in Harran and Tyrana -> (spear)
1 Horse makes worker -> worker

T1 Build Emar -> worker
move settler to autochop jungle near horses

T2 learn republic
sell Otto Currency for Alliance vs. hammi & 27G
sell Currency & 2G to Cathy for gems (she only had 6 gold)
buy Eng from Otto for Republic and 221G
sell Engineering to Porto for 359 + 4gpt
buy Mono from Cathy for Eng, Republic, 384 & 12 gpt
sell Otto Mono for 221G
Offer remedial City to Izzy. She looks better now that she has somewhat normal clothes
turn research to 0%
switch Tyrana and Harran to archers. By keeping Remedial City one turn longer the AC's went to it and should give me enough time to build an offense

T3 tarsus, Aleppo builds archers
switch Hattusas to barracks to start producing REAL Military

IT - redline one AC but lose an archer to the 2nd and he promoted

t4 - Ugarit archer-> archer
trade Izzy Rebulic for Monarchy and 50G. Everyone else had it already...
Heroic Archer goes redline but fights back to redline AC then dies from exhaustion
take out 3 Dutch warriors with archers

T5- redlined AC's retreat....
Babs land a bowman near Emar.
road on horse is complete
Tarsus, Harran, Tyrana archer -> archer

T6 - BAbs burn Emar
road done to horses. forces are moving to protect towns along horse road....
take out bab bowman with cats and archer in the north.
Tarsus, Hattusas, Harran switched to 3man chariot

T7 - Aleppo archer -> 3man
had to use two archers to take out an AC

T8 - Hattusas, Tarsus 3man -> 3man

T9 - Tyrana assaulted by AC and loses an archer
Agrit Archer -> 3man
reg archer takes on AC and kills with no scratches or blood on sandles and promotes for tidiness
vet archer kills dutch archer on hill and wins promoting to elite.

T10- Hattusas, Harran 3man -> 3man
take out Dutch archer with elite archer looking for a leader but no. see archer and 2 AC's ready to kill him. Sorry :( . Dman could send something down to protect him but I doubt that it will prevent the death of our sole elite unit. I suspect that that will change in a minute.

I left quite a few units unmoved. We have 3 3-mans that are either at the Dutch front or can get to it quick. There is 1 in the north that can be used. I didn't want to use it in case we wanted to save our GA for a little later. Now would be a great time IMHO. It seems as though all the Dutch can throw at us now is archers and warriors sprinkled with a couple AC just for spice. The Babs have been quite except for the bowman that Hammi sent to our border that I dispatched and lone bowman that is currently by Kadesh that needs attending to. I have 2 warriors to cover the worker building a road in case we want to wear him down before using the 3man. Izzy, sent a swordsman down from the north for the cities that we gifted her.

Also where is Joan? It looks like we have the whole landmass uncovered except the far NE but no Joan. I have the scout headed up in New England to find out what's up there. I could have sworn that I put continents so maybe she's playing by herself??? No wonders so she must be tech backward.

Save and screenie to come in a bit

750 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_tub_750BC.SAV)

I think that if we want to go ahead and burn our GA we should go after both Hammi and Willi at the same time. Soon we will have two 2-turn 3man pumps and another 3-turn one. I realize a lot of shields will be lost due to despot. We could gamble with the RNG and revolt to republic right now but the WW would kill us. Monarchy is available too.

I hope that I did better this turnset than my last one.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_750BC.JPG

BTW, The bottom Magenta circle on the screen shot are 2 AC only. But only one of them is elite.

I also got the numbers mixed up on the archers and warriors...its 2 warriors and 1 archer.

Also, tech parity is everywhere except Babylon which has Fued and no Republic, Monarchy, Mono, or Eng. Everyone else is at the same level (including us).

well..... if you've asked me i'd suggested not to have and MA against Babylon... We should have made peace with them during your turns and traded feud.
I still think we shouldn't have made MA against Willi either... I bet he is talking to us now, isn't he...
We could have made peace with both of them and simply walk back in to all those cities we donated to Spain.
Burning GA in despotism is simply terribly wrong idea.
And now we are commited to have war on two fronts at the time when we are not really ready for them.

I have it and will study save tonight.

I don't think that I would have survived if Babs were solely focusing on me. I just didn't want to lose the game, but I might have hurt us a little. Hammi has had Fued for about 3-5 turns now and no one has traded him for it...yet. I'm not sure that we want peace against Willi. I think that we should go after him soon if not now. We have 11 turns left on the alliance with Hammi and 10 against Willi.

We could revolt after a couple more 3mans are out. If you definately want to wait until we revolt and do the GA thing you need to change all of those 3man builds to something else. I agree on not burning the GA in despot. That's why I was REALLY heasitant on using the 3man chariots. We only have 4 right now and those need to be guarded to prevent defensive wins to trigger our GA.

I'd hate to do this but I think that we need to either
- revolt now and pray to the RNG gods for a short anarchy, or
- start pumping archers and take a couple of cities before our MA runs out.

Otto and Henry will probably bail on the MA early and that would allow us to get peace a bit earlier. I've only seen that one spanish sword coming down. So we should be ok with still getting the cities back. (Izzy had a spear in one city a few turns after the gift. She might have rushed it.)

I don't think war against willi makes much sense..
He doesn't have iron neither he has luxuries we need.
Fighting war against Dutches is simply burning our resources for nothing
Now imaging our horses attacking his swiss mercenaries and i don't like the odds already.
If you ask me - bad idea at least until we have knights, so....
keep asking questions where the game went wrong :)

keep asking questions where the game went wrong :) Game went wrong when I volunteered to go first!!!!

Looking at the map in the crpViewer we can see that Willi has the following resources within his borders.....

Ivory, Wines, Spices, Furs, horses and Iron

Oh, so Willi does have some iron... that's better
but still we have bad odds fighting against swiss mercenaries.

Hey, where is the rest of the gang??? Why is all of the sudden everybody became so "talkative" as soon as things went south. :lol:

it's just a game, remember???? no reasons to get upset ;)

What are the swiss mercs??? 1/4 defenders? I wonder why Willi hasn't sent those in to pillage.

MAybe because we really don't know what were talking about and were faking it..... And now that we are in trouble no one wants to give bad advice. Bad advice is easier to give if you know that we're powerful enough to recover if it doesn't work out.

I know it's just a game, but I still hate to lose.....

This game isn't a lost game...yet.
It's much better that what we had in M7+1 at the same period of time :)

But the end result of this game will pretty much depend on how many mistakes players make in future.

But the end result of this game will pretty much depend on how many mistakes players make in future.Well you're up....You'll have to deal with my mistakes though....Hopefully Otto or Henry will pull out of the war early and you can work your magic.

Roster:
Tubby Rower - just played
dmanakho - up
Minute Man - on deck
Bede
Mach
Admiral Kutzov
eldar

Guys, guys, guys....

This game is so far from lost it's funny. It may take a litle longer to win that's all. Not yet having iron is, as they say, a bummer, though.

So it is time for making hay while it rains. With our opponents at war with the neighbors, hunker down and build wariiors, warriors and even more warriors. I bet Tarsus can do one every turn by now and a couple of other towns are not far behind. That is more AC's and Swissies or even Knights than Willie can make. Pile them into the border towns along with a catapult or two.

Let the bogies pillage as they will and keep plinking away at them and when the blood runs red on the grass whack 'em with an archer. Or just wound them and they will go quietly away right into Portugal from whence they shall not return,,,,

I realize that we haven't lost or are even close to it. The pictures are a little more scary when you aren't playing. After I played my turnset I actually felt good about our position,...well until dman started analyzing it.

Hattusas is producing 15 shields per turn right now

Tarsus is producing 16 but losing 2 to waste

I think that Harran is producing 10-13 after waste

It wouldn't help. They would have attacked anyways.
This is just the way game mechanism works and i tested it in numerious occasions. Nothing will work on the last turn after AI decided to attack (even MA against another civ I never tested MPP though) and entered your territory.

I tried the MPP in a recent game to try and save my beach head city. They still attacked on the IT with MPP, with me gifting them gpt and lux. They were far from broke, so that wasn't an issue, and weren't paying me gpt anyway. They just wanted my one city off their landmass, and there wasn't a thing I could do to stop the attack.

The desert beach head had no resources (or future resources either), and nothing to gain except for Osman having complete control of his home continent. It was a former Russian city, never owned by Osman. I had only had the city for maybe...5 turns before the attack, and can think of no good reason for him to attack, other than tactical reasons. I was building up my attack force there.

There are situations where you can delay the inevitable, but once they reach the gates of the city, my assumption now is that all bets are off.

Hey, where is the rest of the gang??? Why is all of the sudden everybody became so "talkative" as soon as things went south. Been busy teaching Linebacker to put little plastic discs in his eyes and taking him to baseball practice. Also was rampaging with tanks over in SW2. Finally I had another incident with an edged weapon. Haven't had time to look at a save. 4 words: trebs, pikes, MDI, knights (ok so that's five, who's counting). Where's Zeus? Any shot of grabbing that in a short war? Let's grab more resources.

We have no iron nor Fuedalism. So the last three are out... Not sure when trebs are available.

Zues is in Dutch capital and not likely to get it soon due to swiss mercs. Might need to try to get someone else to go after it, like Cathy!!

Resources are good. but none easily obtained from current position.

Watch out for those pointy things.

We have no iron nor Fuedalism. So the last three are out... Not sure when trebs are available.


Sorry, should have clarified. I was looking at the little glass ball again (do you know you can make little white flakes go from the top to the bottom...I digress) and was thinking (see the smoke, hear the grinding) of the future.

See my glass is half full (and you can ascertain on your own what was in it and where the other half went) :crazyeye:

@ d-man: now are you sorry you spoke up? :lol:

Hey, where is the rest of the gang???
Sorry, I'm around, and I've been watching. RL things have been keeping me busy lately, and unfortunately I'm gonna be here-and-gone-and-back-again for the rest of the week. (My laptop and I are gonna be alternating between two places: one that has internet, and one that doesn't.)

So anyways I haven't been able to take a good look at the save for awhile. I'll be on a flight tonight, so I'll look then, and hopefully have some things to say in the morning.

Anyways...I'm not upset about anything. Games like these happen; sometimes they're lost, and sometimes they get pulled out of the fire ...and those are the best ones. Like Sid Vicious. :) Personally I'm really hoping I can get my hands on this one again...

4 words: trebs, pikes, MDI, knights (ok so that's five, who's counting). Where's Zeus? .

You forgot to add nukes to the list, because it is as close for us to get as pikes and the rest... :rolleyes:


Let's grab more resources.

Lets also grab our butts because that's what we need to take care about before grabbing anything else :lol:

BTW - who's up?

@ dman - see aforementioned (finally started using that book I got for christmas, you know, the tyrannasaurus) glass half full comment :p

I am up and i have it :scan:

I'm here, but I've been hiding from embarassment (still). And playing COTM10 (I could win it easily but I have a personal vendetta to settle in that game - there's an Uber AI City that is just screaming out to be razed). And just finished off my set in SGOTM6.

I'm still hanging around, but I just started a new job a couple of weeks ago, which has cut back on my Civ time a bit. Besides, the ratio of trainers to trainees just keeps increasing in these games, so I don't generally have much to add that hasn't already been covered by my betters....

And after seeing what dman did to the Ottos in M7+1, I'm certainly not going to presume to give him tactical advice. :worship: FWIW, though, I agree with the prevailing opinion - weather the storm, get out of these wars, then go back to the business of sharpening our swords on our neighbors' helmets (note to the Admiral: somebody else's helmet, not your own :lol: ).

But the end result of this game will pretty much depend on how many mistakes players make in future.
Minute Man - on deck
We're doomed. :lol:

save... (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_dman_550BC.SAV)

pre-turn: revolted into republic and draw 4 turns of anarchy. redlined bab bowman. I wish we never had any MAs signed.

IBT. Lost archer.

T1. 730BC. vet. archer vs. reg anc.cav. -> 2hp anc.cav.

IBT. Our warrior kills warrior, anc.cav and gets promoted to elite.

T2. 710BC. Elite warrior attacks 1hp horse -> we get a leader. :dance: What the heck i am supposed to do with it :confused: Build a chariot army? i bet nobody than that before. :)
I'd say rush FP in Tyrana. Switch Tyrana to spear to avoid shield wasting

IBT. Lose 2 archers to Anc. cav.

T3. 690BC. Tyrana spear->FP. Rush FP in Tyrana. We lost silks.

IBT. Our brothers Portucal helped us greatly. One heroic swordman kills 4 dutch units before died. His death will be remembered and there are no Dutch troops on our territory left. Porto and Osmans signed MA against Babylon.
Russia and Ottomans signed MA against Babylon.

T4. 670BC Anarchy is over and we are republic. Trade wines + 72 golds to russia in exchange of silks.

IBT. Yes Yes Yes!!! Porto signed peace with Dutch. Dutch completed Pyramids.

T5. 650BC. Making peace with Dutch for 150gold. Time to get our cities back from Spain.

IBT. Situation just couldn't be better. Spain and Russia signed MA against Babylon. Spain built ToA.

T6. 630BC Declare on Spain. Remedial City recaptured. Golden Ages started. Failed to take Adana. Hattusha next turn. Everyone knows feud. now. WIll do self-research in 4turns.

IBT. Spanish sword dies attacking our chariot.

T7. 610BC. Both Hattusha and Adana re-captured. We are back where we were now some 20 turns ago. Time to shake Babylon.
But for now i want to complete all the marketplaces. Galley found an island with IRON. We won't get that iron until after Navigation. (ocean tiles to cross), but claiming it now would make sense.

IBT. Babs landed bowman near Kadesh.

T8. 590AD. just moving troops around. I'd like to build another city 2 North from Tarsus.

T9. 570AD. Killed that bowman. Rushed a market.

IBT. Spain wants peace.. Sure dear... give me that 119gold you have throw couple of cities and we have a deal.
Arrgh... Hatutas rioting.. it grew in pop and didn't built market yet. :mad:

T10. 550AD Feud comes switch high speed on Invention in 7 turns with budget deficit. Our Chariots should be ready to take Nineveh and a source of dyes in 2 turns.

Post-turn: Gems deal expires with russia, see how much they want for extension. If it is less than we would spend on bumping lux slider up then think about it. But remember we will have dyes connected soon.

1. So i say use lux slider for now and later we may trade those dyes and not spend money on it.

2. Make sure you use workers properly. Don't put piles of workers on the same tile... Admiral likes to make huge stacks of workers and assign them tasks like mining mountains in one turn :crazyeye: This is waste, i explained why in one of the previous games.

3. Starve Hattusha with scientists, we don't want it to flip.

4. By the end of your turns I expect you to build markets and libraries (yes, you heard me right - libraries ;) ) in each productive city we have, but do not forget about military.

5. Make sure you have that Pink Dot - Iron city built and hopefully raze Babylon. Show us your military talents. Bottom line - we want to see iron connected soon. We will need knights sooner than we think.

6. As soon as troop surplus is available enhance defence of our borders with Dutch and Porto. We don't want to be burned second time.

7. We need to re-establish settler factory. Right now we can shave settlers from all cities with markets that are about to reach pop 9 to prevent lux bumping. Lots of shields are wasted in those cities anyways. With Chariots we don't need that 15spt per city.

These are preliminary thoughts. I might add some more or change them later.
Suggestions are welcome. Minute Man welcomes those. ;)

North:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03-550BC-north.JPG

This is the entire map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03-550BC.JPG

Wait, I thought we were doomed? :lol:

Those large stacks of workers are cause I'm usually roading trying to get the swords to the front.

nice job, dman.

Re those MA's: try to avoid them at this level. Although there's a balance when you know the AI will make peace before the deal is done. Which is heavier grasshopper, a MA or an RoP? If we're not going south, maybe we want RoP with Willie?

Make sure you have that Pink Dot - Iron city built and hopefully raze Babylon. Show us your military talents. Bottom line - I want to see iron connected soon. We will need knights sooner than we think.
power of pink dots has been well documented. strongly suggest we proceed as indicated. ;)

If we're not going south, maybe we want RoP with Willie?

Or may be my favorite - large stack of chariots/knights on the Willie's border 15 turns from now. :)

Good job, dman. :thumbsup: Things are definitely looking up.

Got it, but I'm up in SGOTM6 as well, so I might need a little extra time.

Dman, why are you so down on the chariots. Aren't the Hittite chariots 2.2.2 That's better than a horse... good job though.

Take your'e time MM, if it's going to be later than Saturday then let us know and we can jump back to you.

They're still Chariots, and they can't go over mountains/through jungle without roads.

They're still Chariots, and they can't go over mountains/through jungle without roads.
Ooooh.. I see. I didn't think about that. thanks for the info. I guess that's my one thing that I learned this game!

Yeah, about the Chariots... I actually wanted to build horses, but horses were not shown as a choice to build in production line.... :confused:

Or may i need a better glasses perhaps?

That's why I was building them. I thought that since they are 2.2.2 then they might replace horses but looking at the war academy, they replace chariots. I'm not sure what is going on.

You can't build Horses until after the GA has been tripped, because despite their wheeled nature, they're still a better unit than Horses.

GAs have been tripped indeed. IIRC, We were in GA since my turn 6

I see rumours going around that the Venerable Bookseller is a year older :D

In which case.... :bday:, Bede!

Yes...given his wisdom and mine....extrapolating when I will be as knowledgable......He's what 348? plus or minus a year.

regardless :bday: :band:

Yeay!!! :bday:
i am joining the gang and congratulate an old friar one more time.

Happy Birthday Bede :)

/delurk:

3MC replace both chariots and horses. I'm pretty sure you still can't build horses after initializing your GA.

Greetz
Lullaby

Thanks Lullaby!

Here are the several strategic points on this game:

1. build more cities. the more the better. The same old reason - to shave as much as we can off unit support cost. So for the future we may want to implement Gozpel(TM) squeezing tactics. Again we will be required to re-establish a settler factory.
2. We are in the middle of landmass and i hate having two fronts. Once we take care of Babylon we should turn the opposite direction and start chipping piece by piece of Willie's and Henry's land and to avoid been backstabbed always keep some units on opposite border... Also it is a good idea to find another scape goat after Babylon and Spain is a really good target for that purpose. For example start war on Willie and Spain at the same time. Then Sign MA with Russia and Otto against Issy and let them boil in their own juices while we can concentrate on our primary target.
3. Self-research won't always work on DG level. We do it now because of GA. we will probably have to stop it soone after GAs end. We should pursue tech that AIs don't go after often. For example the trick Bede and I pulled in AK7 Opium barons game when we went after PP and Democracy and team managed to buy the rest of IA techs using those 2. I reckon we can do it in this game as well.

Please bring more strategic thoughts on the general flow of the game as well as tactical solutions.

I know that we have used #2 in the past but now that it is written down it seems to make more sense to me now

AS far as strategy, Russia is mired in the swamp & jungle. I hope that she cleans it up before we evict her, but I think that she should be last. I think that Otto has some nice territory in the north so maybe we could go in this order for expanding...

Hammi (current focus)
Willil (lots of nice land)
Henry (jungles but take one eldar's backs off)
Otto (more nice land in the north - maintain west coast)
Izzy
Cathy (hopefully jungles are cleared)

Tubby's order looks good to me, so unless AIs decide change our plans i'd say we follow that list.

We should use GA to get markets and libraries going and then start massive military build up. We should have a very strong core by the end of M-Man's turns.
Libraries in border cities that will be somewhat productive/temples (cheaper) in border cities that will be heavily corrupted (even with courts) for the land squeezing puproses.
Dedicate a city for settler factory (Hattusha??? so may be build a settler there instead of starving it??? i never looked at flip chances for that town). Shave workers of each city that reachers certain size.

Hattusha as I recall has the FP wheat. The only thing is does it have the shield power to produce settlers without rushing? Settlers out of there should be good since it was 4 when I gifted it. It's probably up to 7-8 by now.

It's probably up to 7-8 by now.

You think Izzy doesn't now how to rush? :) It is still 4 as it was when you gifted it. (well, i was also starving it for couple of turns as well)

Thanks for the good wishes, gents.

Query: how did you know?

This is a good community and all of you are an important reason for it.

Now on to the game.

Any time we go a-warring we need to bring our friends, 'cause if we don't they will become our enemies.

But, how do we manage war weariness if we are a republic? you say. Never lose a battle, never lose a city, never leave troops in enemy territory.

If you can accomplish those three things you can make war until the cows come home for milking. The first two require concentration, so no chasing strays or deviating from the objective. Don't split your attacking forces, even for what looks like an easy kill or conquest. The third requirement can be met with the "combat settler and worker" team.

Note on research: d-man's point is a good one but it needs a caveat: Self-research does work, but only if you follow Bede's Three Principles of Technology Acquisition, which apply to purchasing as well:

1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad plan. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

The only exception I would make is when #2 is of such overwhelming importance the nation would not survive without it.

Thanks for the good wishes, gents.

Query: how did you know?

It was on nightly news featuring your dearest friend Bugsy telling the rest of the world about this special ocasion :)

Roster:
Tubby Rower
dmanakho - still scratching his head over no horses
Minute Man - Delayed due to SGOTM6
Bede - turning grey waiting and officially older now
Mach
Admiral Kutzov
eldar - just played

Thanks for the good wishes, gents.

But, how do we manage war weariness if we are a republic? you say. Never lose a battle, never lose a city, never leave troops in enemy territory.


This is very important point... And I am sure it will apply in our game and don't anybody dare to miss it :devil: ;)
I am actually refering to those remote town Spain gave us in exchange for peace. In case of war with any of our eastern neigbors we won't likely to be able to defend those cities. In case if city is in danger to fall - gift it ASAP.
Nothing hits WW worse in republic than lost cities.
Be wise who you donate it to.. Think strategic there.

As for Military Alliances.

Here is my theory and how i use them.

1. When I use MA
a) I use MA when I am prepared for the war and I am the one who actually starting it (or sometimes planning to start but AI beats me to it)
b) when i wage a phony war and just need to keep AIs busy for one or the other reason (like slowing down tech pace)

2. when i don't use MA.
a) when i was sneaked attacked and totally not ready for the war. I'd rather risk and bleed next 3to5 turns until attacker agrees to make peace (and they always do that's just a mechanic of this game). In this situation I have short war and even if I lose something it's usually not terribly bad. But if you make and MA when you are not ready to wage war you will have your hands tied down for another 20 turns.
b) can't think about anything else at the moment

Nothing hits WW worse in republic than lost cities.
concur
In case if city is in danger to fall - gift it ASAP.
ditto
2. when i don't use MA.
a) when i was sneaked attacked and totally not ready for the war. I'd rather risk and bleed next 3to5 turns until attacker agrees to make peace (and they always do that's just a mechanic of this game). In this situation I have short war and even if I lose something it's usually not terribly bad. But if you make and MA when you are not ready to wage war you will have your hands tied down for another 20 turns
very strongly concur.

I can't remember the last time I used an MA as a republic.

I can't remember the last time I used an MA as a republic.

well, it's not that i don't use MA in republic. The opposite is true - i always do, but only when write the script for the soap opera. (which is usually the case on all levels below Diety).

Now that I've sitting here thinking, vague recollection of using MA when I knew my friends would make peace long before the 20 turns.

Feeling guilty. Think we need to go get dman some knights and cavs to play with.

This is beating a dead horse with bede up, but, we need a strategic dot map to expedite discussion.

OT-did you know that the king units turn into inquistors on Bede's b-day? Firaxis coded it as the temple easter egg.

The whole MA spiel hits home - thanks for correcting my mistake. I actually got it right in COTM10, with my MA denying both opponents crucial resources (China Horses/Iron, Japan Ivory).

I did get caught out by something I wasn't aware of.

I was still in my alliance with Japan when I finished the last Chinese city. I guess the alliance must have been part of the peace treaty I signed when I swapped the alliance around - for the most part, I'd been going for a GA military build-up, preparing for an invasion of China. Anyway, the Alliance-with-Peace bit is what's important.

The Chinese war was over 20 turns, but as Japan didn't come back to re-negotiate peace, I forgot about cancelling the alliance as well - I couldn't care less if those two were still fighting by that point.

Right, so I capture the last Chinese city. So the alliance with Japan is broken - and as it was part of the peace deal, so was the peace treaty, and I'm at war with Japan - WITH NO WARNING, NOTIFICATION, NOTHING. If I hadn't checked F4 before deciding what to do next, I'd have been caught with my pants down as my supposed "allies" killed my units, wiped out my cities, and really hammered my WW up in next to no time.

OK, I've finished wrestling with the monster that is SGOTM6, so I should be able to get this played tomorrow. Sorry about the delay.

[lurker's comment]

Cool game. Wasn't really planning on reading this, but then saw TR's started a demi-god game, with such a strong cast... And the phenominal starting location.

Keep on trucking! (and I'm learning a but about the MA and such, too).

OK, I finally got my turns played. They didn't go as well as I had hoped, but still quite a bit better than they could have. What do I mean by that? Read on (better get comfortable :) ) and find out...

Pre-flight
I take a look at the happiness situation and notice that if we turn down luxuries to 10%, we'd save 26 gpt, and the only city that would be unhappy is Hattusas (which is due to build a marketplace in three turns). I'm tempted to give Hattusas a scientist, but since our gems deal is about to expire, I'll keep luxuries where they are for another turn.

I think about building a settler in Hattusha, but it would be a Spanish settler. Spain isn't a culture monster now, but they are religious, and it looks like their culture is starting to increase, so let's not risk it. Besides, with a granary and flood plain wheat, it'll grow back the lost pop in no time. So keep starving.

Do a little MM. Tarsus, in particular, is making 20+ spt, which we don't really need, so let other towns borrow a couple of its improved squares.

Also...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-OHT.jpg

:nono:, dman. :p Change that to a library - we have several fast-growing core cities that we can shave workers off of once they finish building libraries and markets.

1 - 530 BC
Valencia spear->temple. Tarsus settler->3MC.

Tarsus is still at 20 spt, and I'm tempted to build archers to avoid wasting shields, but with 42 gpt in unit support, I think we'd better go for quality over quantity.

As expected, our gems deal expires. I find that Cathy is willing to renew it for dyes + 10 gpt. Since that lets us turn the lux slider down a notch, I think it's worth it, so I go ahead and make the deal. And Hattusas gets a scientist for the next couple of turns.

What's this scout doing? We have essentially zero unexplored territory on our continent, so I'm not willing to keep paying this guy 2 gpt. Disband him.

2 - 510 BC
Osman doesn't want to renew our MA vs. Babylon. Fine by me.

A Bab bowman suicides on our stack of 3MCs. One less defender to kill...

Battle of Nineveh commences.
3MC does 1 hp damage to vet spear before retreating. Reg spear revealed.
3MC redlines reg spear but dies. 3HP vet spear revealed.
3MC kills spear, taking 1 damage. That's more like it.
3MC gets redlined but polishes off the last spear.

So Nineveh is ours with only one 3MC lost. Move all the wounded into the city to heal; start the others toward Babylon.

Our 3MC coming up from the south reaches the hill next to Babylon, and sees a couple of Otto spears and an archer in the vicinity. I'd much rather raze Babylon than let Osman have it, but I might have to hurry.

Actually, now that I think about it, after Babylon falls, Hammi will be down to two size 1 cities, so he won't last long. So it's probably worth keeping rather than razing. Next turn I'll have 4 3MCs in attack position, ready to take the city if it looks like it's about to fall to Osman.

Incidentally, the iron has been pillaged, probably by the Otto archer standing on it. Which is probably just as well, but we'll have to reconnect it.

I'm forced to turn down research a couple of notches to avoid going broke. Invention still due in 6.

3 - 490 BC
Hattusas market->worker. Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Ugarit market->library.

4 - 470 BC
Hattusas worker->library. Harran market->library.

All the Ottoman troops, having pillaged just about everything at Babylon, just moved away from the city. Looks like we'll get to take it in peace. Need a few more 3MCs, though, so it'll be a couple of turns.

5 - 450 BC
Tarsus 3MC->3MC. Tyrana Library->barracks. Ankuwa library->market.

Netherlands just joined the dogpile vs. Babylon (via alliance with Russia). So that's one more nation whose troops will be tromping across our territory.

The Ottomans build the Great Library (in Bursa). So make sure to include Osman in any tech trades.

IT: A Bab bowman (who had come from Ashur) attacks Ivriz, promoting the 3MC I'd stationed there to elite.

6 - 430 BC
Aleppo market->3MC. Kadesh library->harbor.

Hammi is in dire straits right about now. Ellipi is gone, and both Ottomans and Russia have troops converging on Ashur. And in one more turn, I'll have 8 3MCs within striking distance of Babylon. There's also a Portugeuse column marching across our territory, but they're going to show up too late to matter.

7 - 410 BC
Hattusas library->settler. Tarsus 3MC->settler.

Looks like there's going to be some empty space to our north pretty soon. We're going to want settlers.

Our galley sinks trying to return from the iron island (which is a suicide route, so probably not worth sending a settler there now anyway).

OK, we're as ready as we're going to be. The Battle of Babylon commences...
3MC retreats after doing one damage to vet spear. Reg spear revealed.
3MC dies after doing one damage to reg spear. Another reg spear revealed.
3MC retreats after doing one damage to reg spear. Injured vet revealed.
3MC retreats, doing no damage.
3MC does one damage and retreats.
Send in our elite 3MC, hoping for better luck. Finally kills a spear, taking two damage.
3MC redlines a spear but dies.

We no longer have enough forces to take the city, so I pull back into our territory to heal. That didn't go very well, but fortunately we only actually lost two 3MCs. I might have attacked a bit prematurely, but I thought eight 3MCs could beat three spears, even in a size seven city. Well, with any luck the other AIs will have just as much trouble.

Show us your military talents.
Be careful what you wish for... :(

We have WW now, but none of our cities are actually unhappy yet.

Change Tarsus back to 3MC. Hattusas is at +28 shields, which is really annoying, so swap a couple of tiles temporarily to get +30.

8 - 390 BC
Hattusas settler->3MC. Tyrana barracks->3MC.

On the IT, the Spanish raze Ashur, and the Ottos take Babylon. :sad: I tried...

Unfortunately, now that Babylon is no more, the Dutch forces that have entered from the south have nowhere to go, and a couple of them just started moving in a different direction. A couple of horses are even within striking distance of Harran, which is undefended. And I can't get reinforcements there in time; I've been sending all of our forces to the Babylon front (and even then, it wasn't enough). If I had even one more turn, I could get three 3MCs there. I have a really bad feeling about this...

Anyway, we discover Invention. Unfortunately, the rest of the world just simultaneously discovered Theology...and Invention! :aargh: We were literally one turn too slow (and I researched as fast as our funds would allow). Oddly, the only one who doesn't have Invention is Osman, who's about to get it from the GL anyway, so I trade Invention for Theology. This
turn just keeps getting better and better....

Set research to Gunpowder, due in seven (though we'll go broke again and have to turn it down).

I look at Harran again, but there's nothing I can do. I wish I hadn't been so preoccupied with Babylon; I totally missed this possibility. I take a deep breath and press Enter...

9 - 370 BC

...and the Dutch turn around and go home. That's a big relief. Also a big mistake on William's part - he should have attacked us while the attacking was good. Next time we'll be ready for him.

Tarsus 3MC->worker. Aleppo 3MC->3MC.

DIscover that if I turn down lux to 0, only two cities are unhappy, both of which can build workers in the next couple of turns. So I do it and hire a couple of scientists.

Found a city on the pink dot to claim the iron. It'll be under culture pressure from the Ottomans (who are turning into a serious culture monster), but that can't be helped. We really need that iron. Start building a temple for the culture.

Needless to say, I move some spare 3MCs to beef up the southern border. :)

10 - 350 BC
Hattusas 3MC->3MC. Tarsus worker->3MC. Ugarit library->3MC. Harran library->settler. Tyrana 3MC->3MC.

Portugal develops Chivalry. I don't think we have anything to trade, though.

So here's the current situation:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03-350BC.jpg

Notes:

There's a stack of 3MCs in Ivriz which will be healed in another turn and can then be sent to the southern front (or wherever else they're needed).

Most of our core cities are done with infra now and building military. We should be ready for another war before too long.

We still have lots of Portugeuse troops tromping through our territory. They seem to be headed home.

There's a settler on dman's blue dot, ready to found that city. So at least we gained a little bit of territory from the Babylonian war.

Didn't get the settler factory reestablished yet. Hattusha can probably be that once it grows a little bit more.

Roster check:

Tubby Rower
dmanakho
Minute Man - just played
Bede - up!
Mach - on deck
Admiral Kutzov
eldar

On to the next (much) better player....

Great job M-Man. :goodjob:

So what, you didn't take Babylon, part of bad luck... Not a problemo...

I think Babylon war is a big success - we have dyes (even extra ones for trading). And we also have Iron...
All we need is to get us some knights, but i believe we can attack next opponent even before that.
Bede will decide depending on the situation present.
Would be nice to get another dot map created. Another important task for us right now - keep squeezing AIs by building more border cities and then add culture to expand.
It's not just about squeezing - lots of waste land east from us..
Also it would be nice to expand Aleppo's border to get silks under control.

agree with dman.

We know Bede can do pictures. What about a dotmap?

Would also be nice to have the halls and the living room painted. any takers? ;)

Dot-map? Uff da!

Got it.

So we have the whole continent mapped and no Joan???

repeats last game again where we didn't know where Persia was until very late in game.

At least you guys will believe me now that I said that I clicked continents instead of pangea ;)

At least you guys will believe me now that I said that I clicked continents instead of pangea ;)

We believe you intended to click continents :)
But this is a pangea map. Pangea map often have islands where one or two AI (or human player for that matter) can have starting locations.

I've never played a pangea map where the main land mass is only half of the map. I realize that on pangea maps that there could be an island big enough to have a start or two on, but our "continent" isn't that big. And since all but one civ is on it, it generated a crowded condition.

We believe you intended to click continents :)
But this is a pangea map. Pangea map often have islands where one or two AI (or human player for that matter) can have starting locations.

Just ran it through Ainwood's SeedBeast and the result says "continents".

The log:

350BC Change some chariot builds to longbows. I can hear the howls of anguish from d-man now; but, there are fewer wasted shields, we aren't going to have the cash to upgrade the 3MC's we already have to knights, and that defensive free shot is just too tempting to ignore. And longbows with trebuchets are a killer combination, almost as good as knights.

Change our scientists to taxmen so we will be at least 1g to the good when we learn Gunpowder and that brings our beaker count precisely in line with the beakers needed for Gunpowder in four. Tis a small thing but important when every gold piece counts. We could really use some more markets and libaries.

A little hint on jungle clearing: it is best done when you have no more useful things for workers to do and you need really big gangs to make it work in a reasonable time. If I have the workers I like to set up big gangs: six move onto the jungle and build a road, the others come in when the road is done and everybody chops, when the jungle is gone, six move off to road the next piece, the rest of the crew builds whatever improvement is necessary to the newly cleared terrain then joins the road crew when it is done. It takes about 18, I think, to make it work the best.

330BC Sign an RoP with Henry to get him off our land a little faster and he pays a nice toll to use our roads.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_330BC.jpg

And it works a treat. Three turns in and the Portugese have left the building.

Hire a tax collector in Hattusas to avoid rioting and shift the citizens around to get 25spt, not that I know what to do with it.

270BC Gunpowder is learned and we hold a monopoly, so shut off the research to build cash for upgrades.

Take advantage of our monopoly position to empty Henry's pockets figuring I can trade for Chivalry later.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_270BC.jpg

Spain has saltpeter, Portugal has saltpeter, Turks have saltpeter, we got no saltpeter, Dutch have saltpeter at Eindhoven.

Since we are going to war with Willie boy to get some salt, buy Chivalry from Henry for 117gpt. And start a settler at Hattusas to claim some open land in the east.

Trade Chivalry and Wines to Catherine for Silks and 78g+3gpt.

250BC A settler moves out from Harran to claim the saltpeter at Eindhoven.

230BC The borders at Eindhoven expand before I can found the town so the settler goes to the hill above the floodplains.

210BC Iron is up so upgrade nine 3MC for 1080g.

150BC Printing Press is learned and no one, not even the Portugee seem to know the French. The best bet is the Dutch who have some settlements in the East Indies. Salamanca and Valencia will disband on the inter-turn. They are too far away, impossible to defend and are just an invitation for the Spanish to take. One will produce a settler, the other a worker.

Whatever you do don't sell Gunpowder to Willie.

We have eleven knights some longbows and a couple of trebs. Build some more knights, some more stone throwers and have a settler ready and we can take Eindhoven.

No dot map needed as we are only filling in the holes left by the neighbors. We are right close to the OCN so every new town will contribute to unit support but that is about it. Three more towns and every new town will start to drive corruption into the core.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_150BC.jpg

Just ran it through Ainwood's SeedBeast and the result says "continents".

Sorry i was wrong on this one... Some strange continental map with only french people populating the "other" land


350BC Change some chariot builds to longbows. I can hear the howls of anguish from d-man now; but, there are fewer wasted shields, we aren't going to have the cash to upgrade the 3MC's we already have to knights, and that defensive free shot is just too tempting to ignore. And longbows with trebuchets are a killer combination, almost as good as knights.


:gripe: - there we go... :lol:
Actually, what i'd do in such a situation - build unit for one turn and cash rush it next turn. or if it takes only 2 turns to build units with shield waste then build cheaper unit or structure one turn and cash rush Hors (3MC in our case) next turn. Most of the time this trick works unless there is really weird number of shields vs. unit cost involved.


Now... I 100% concur with Bede - It's the :hammer: time.
@Next player: Don't wait more than couple of turns. Strike WIllie and strike him hard. Must sign MAs with Henry against him whatever it will cost us.
Don't be shy to ask tactical war questions :)

Need to secure eastern borders - 3 ways to do it.
1. Station many troops there (not efficient way)
2. Sign MA with at least turks and russians against Willie (and watch them marching trough our territory)
3. Declare phony war on Spain and sign MA with Turks and Russian against Izzy.
4. Do nothing (very bad -> we have good odds for Willie to sign MA against us)

Any suggestions?

I like the Spanish war. Izzy's picture disturbs me for some reason. The only issue is that that Otto will more than likely get more powerful.

Maybe sign MA with Russia against Izzy and sign one with Otto against Willi. Then Otto's forces will be tied up coming south and be fairly ineffective.

Having Ottomans around is better for us that any of the European tribes.

Civ3 uses this nationality grouping (i forgot the term) where nations in the same group have better attitude against each other..
Ottomans are in the same group with us, so they are less likely to sneak attack us than anybody else. Another nations that could have been friendly to us - Babylon is out of the picture.

I tend to agree with Tubby if we sign Otto against Willie Osmans won't be able to grab any additional land and become stronger.
We can probably stop there, I am sure if Henry and Otto start war against
Willie they will manage to sign Spain and Russia against Willie as well...
Remember the way they did with Babylon. This is not an exact science but odds are good.

Bede - just played
Mach - up
A-K - on deck hopefully killing Ghandi in SW3

Ok, I'm around and I got it. I'll take a good look around this evening, although if I have too many questions, I'll wait until tomorrow night to play.

Bede, did you forget the save? Or maybe I'm missing something...

As for war plans, I'm ok with signing Turks against Willie. I just want to note that with this plan, we're stuck at war with Willie for awhile. If we go with Ottos vs. Spain, then I can make peace with Willie if things go sour.

Also, a few questions about builds, if you guys don't mind. Why is Remedial City working on granary? (Not that I have a better suggestion...)

And why is Harran building a pike? Wouldn't we be better off building offensive units there, or do we want pikes this game?

As for war plans, I'm ok with signing Turks against Willie. I just want to note that with this plan, we're stuck at war with Willie for awhile. If we go with Ottos vs. Spain, then I can make peace with Willie if things go sour.

This war will be on our terms and we must succeed or else :rolleyes:
We will play until is Willie pushed to the sea or until all MAs are gone and we can demand techs/gold/cities from Willie... So be ready for a long combat.


Also, a few questions about builds, if you guys don't mind. Why is Remedial City working on granary? (Not that I have a better suggestion...)

And why is Harran building a pike? Wouldn't we be better off building offensive units there, or do we want pikes this game?


I am sure Bede had his reasons... Personally I would not build pikes, but sinse we have longbows we need a pike or two to protect stack of longbows with trebs.
I would change Remedial City to courthouse or market if court is built already.
Don't build Granaries - we have to capture Dutch capital instead. Those guys have Pyramids. :drool:

EDIT: Why Ugarit is stuck on size 6? Is it MM for shields? I'd rather let it grow and have land around that city improved. This is inner core city we shall let it grow.
Another reason - all cities above 6 have better unit support. There more cities we have the better for our armies.

Bede, did you forget the save? Or maybe I'm missing something...

You know he's old now and you have to cut him some slack....

Just to add some comments:

Granaries power population growth, especially when towns start turning into cities, and the Pyramids are still a ways off.

Ugarit is in that funny place where the marginal citizen really doesn't have terribly spiffy terrain to work in, at least until we can get some workers up to chop the jungle. So, stuck it at size six for a while and managed for shields.

There wasn't a whole lot of potential for cash rushing as the budget was straining towards Gunpowder and then the 3MC upgrades and then some culture rushing on the borders. Just not enough room to make it work. The pikes and bows were built to make the best use of the available shields and to provide for cover on trebs and the wounded. If we had had iron earlier I would have built maces instead where I had eight spt, or some other divisor of forty.

The Admiral will tell you, I can be a waste Nazi (hate it, hate it, hate it, don't really like it). And it is one of the things that separates the merely good from the sublime, :D, or is that "slime".

And yeah this is a war to the death with Willie. Can't afford to let him live much longer.

Yeah, I'm old and gray.

Here is the save....

we got no saltpeter, Dutch have saltpeter at Eindhoven.


Concur with all that Willie's gotta go.

If we're gonna give MA's to fight Willie, let's give them an RoP as part of the deal so they can do some fighting for us. The trick will be to take the cities before the AI and have a combat settler to replace it in a turn or two.

Do we have the embassies up?

For those who track my schedule, playing SW2 and 3 tonight in prep for this tomorrow? :drool:

This war will be on our terms and we must succeed or else Ok, good, so, like, no pressure. :D

The Admiral will tell you, I can be a waste Nazi (hate it, hate it, hate it, don't really like it). And it is one of the things that separates the merely good from the sublime, , or is that "slime".'Scuse me while I get this tatooed somewhere... Seriously, this is the kinda thing I've been trying to teach myself lately -- my games tend to have a lot of waste. Be assured I'm gonna study this save before I play.

For those who track my schedule, playing SW2 and 3 tonight in prep for this tomorrow? Don't count on me finishing my turns tonight, AK, I'm gonna take my time and bug y'all for :help: if I need to. I'd rather be slow than screw it up... :undecide:

Yeah, I'm old and gray.Well, it kinda suits you anyway. :dance:

Just to add some comments:
Granaries power population growth, especially when towns start turning into cities, and the Pyramids are still a ways off.


I would still argue that court or market is a better build at the moment.
Let it grow in a normal pace.


Ugarit is in that funny place where the marginal citizen really doesn't have terribly spiffy terrain to work in, at least until we can get some workers up to chop the jungle. So, stuck it at size six for a while and managed for shields.


Let it grow. My point is at size 7 it gives us 2 extra units in republic.
That means 4gpt each turn... Even that citizen is a clown it is much better to let city to grow... Even if it brings us 0spt it will give us some gold some science.
This is my strong opinion - growth is the power especially in republic. LEEEETT ITT GRRROOOWWWW!!!!! ;)

Just my $0.02

This is my strong opinion - growth is the power especially in republic. LEEEETT ITT GRRROOOWWWW!!!!!
dman appears to be losing it, evaluating potential for idiot card... :lol:

Heh, you guys are funny. I've stared at the save, and here are my thoughts.

First, this is going to be a tough war. The Dutch have large cities, and they must have Swiss mercs and knights. And we're weak compared to them. So we're gonna sustain losses. We need more trebs to keep that down.

We currently have in the area 6 knights, 2 trebs, 4 bows, and a pike. I don't want to start the war with just that. If it were up to me, I'd let the current round of knights finish, then I'd make a round of trebs in our 10spt and 15spt cities. I could partially rush the trebs, so we could be at war in...8 turns? Something like that. We would be at something like 12 knights, 5 trebs, 4 longbows, 2 pikes, and 2 settlers at that point. I could send the knights against the city under the fog sw of Kummanni, and the slow movers against Eindhoven.

With this in mind, I would keep Ugarit as it is for the moment -- letting it grow would knock it down to +7spt, essentially removing one military factory from our arsenal for the next 10 turns. Maybe when the war has started we can make the changeover to food...

What do you guys think? I won't start until I hear, since I think war in 8 turns was longer than dman wanted to wait...

Most of the ideas on the picture itself...
Do you guys think this is reasonable plan.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03-warplan1.JPG


Actually, we could sell Gunpowder to Dutch if Willie had money.
Swiss Merc have the same 4 defence as muskets so we could have made some money before starting war.
Too bad guy only has 16 gold.


After looking at the save i tend to agree with Bede now... (sorry Brother Bede i was wrong).
It will take 18 turns for Ugarit to grow, so won't make anydifference to us anytime soon. Once we improve land around it and have pyramids it will change.
Remedial city however can be switched to court or market.
It will take 15 something turns (after it grows in 2) for the city to build granary. Pyramids will be ours not far away at that point.
Those wines near Harran give lots of extra food, should mine plains for shields.
Citizen in Tyrana should be switched from mined grass to golden hill.. Will shave one turn of knight build, lots of extra gold and only 2 shields will be wasted.
Try to squeeze settlers from Hatusha if you can.
I believe Bede want to abandon those remote cities to get us some settlers.
Am i right about that?

The plan looks good to me. It always helps to be able to take a couple of cities on the first turn, before your opponent can even react. That's why fast units are so much fun.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the numbers. I'd feel comfortable sending in 6-8 knights on Monarch, but I honestly have no idea how many defenders a Demigod AI will have. Investigating the city should answer that question, though.

It is a pity that the civ it makes the most sense for us to attack is the one that has a strong defensive UU, though. Have the Dutch had their GA yet?

We should get one worker and one settler out of the Spanish cities (the settler will be native Hittite). Then it is just a matter of getting them home.....

Will has not had his GA and has held the Statue of Zeus for a little less than 60 turns and the Art of War for two.

Listen to d-man when he's talking war :salute:

And, how could I miss the gold at Tyrana, must be getting old?

Wow you guys stay up past my bed-time. I have to go to sleep @ 9 or 10 EST to have enough energy after I get home from work to play with my daughter. She's go-go-go all the time.

Back on topic, the plan sounds good dman. I agree with MM that I don't know about the defenders. Also I thought that the swiss mercs were 2/3? can anyone confirm?

If you hadn't played yet Mach, here's a list of do's:

1) wait for attack force to be in place
2) maybe investigate a city to find out number of defenders
3) make sure no units are in Dutch territory (even galleys) declare war
4) sign on Portugal and Ottomans against Dutch
5) make sure no units are in Spanish territory (even galleys) declare war
6) Sign on Russia against the Spainiards
7) use knights to take first two cities hopefully on first turn
8) pause to heal and get slow attackers up to those cities
9) have fun!!

I like the plan, however I do share my concerns over how many Swiss Mercs we'll find in Eindhoven. 3 Knights per Merc sounds about right, but if we see 4 - what then? Risk it with 8 Knights?

[Edit]
Hmm, nice x-posting there TR :D

Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!

Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!
Oh come on. it's better to die fighting than quit!!! I'd say go ahead and risk the 8 knights vs 4 mercs. But I'm a risk taker and sometimes It's not the best risks to take.

Ok I see the plan and I agree it looks good. I'm glad I paused to get instructions, because I would have attacked later with trebs... I'll play tonight.

Settlers from Hattusha, that was what I was thinking. We'll have that worker factory reestablished in short order.

I doubt we'll hit 4 mercs in one city. Certainly not Eindhoven, which is only size 5 and doesn't need any flip suppression. That other Foggy City may have more units, since it's squeezed a bit...

I'm afraid war with Spain might jeopardize our settler and workers we'll have over there. I'll do my best with that. I'll make RoP with Turks as part of the MA, so I can hide in there.

NO RoP with the Turks. We don't want them to take any of the Dutch cities. Be greedy on this one. They shouldn't sneak attack you. So let them trudge through our territory.

The MAIN reason for getting the Turks into the Dutch war was to prevent them from getting stronger and at the same time tie them up so that they do not MA with the Dutch against us

EDIT::::Can someone more knowledgable confirm my list? I'd hate for Mach to follow my advice and it be wrong and the exact opposite of what the team would recommend!

Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!

I had a similar experience... My berserks rolled over the Hittites (or whoever it was that was to their east), then I reached the Dutch, and my offense just ground to a halt. I didn't quit, exactly, but I set the game aside for a bit and didn't get back to it in time to finish.

Oh come on. it's better to die fighting than quit!!! I'd say go ahead and risk the 8 knights vs 4 mercs. But I'm a risk taker and sometimes It's not the best risks to take.

Well, having been burned at Babylon (I think I had 7 attacks and only killed one spear), I'd advise caution. Getting a bunch of knights killed without taking a city wouldn't help our cause much.

My combat calculator says a veteran knight has a 51% chance of beating a fortified regular merc, and a 34% chance against a vet (though that doesn't take retreats into consideration). So I'd say that a 3-1 advantage is probably the minimum I'd feel comfortable with.

I doubt we'll hit 4 mercs in one city. Certainly not Eindhoven, which is only size 5 and doesn't need any flip suppression.

You're probably right, though investigating Eindhoven will answer that question for sure. You can count on Amsterdam to be pretty heavily defended, though.

The real problem with Swiss Mercs is that they're so cheap - half the price of muskets. Which means that they cost a DG AI, what, 21 shields? And we're about to kick off Willie's GA...this is going to be a tough war. After taking the first two cities, it'll probably be a good idea to bring in the trebs and advance more slowly. Blitzing with sheer force of numbers isn't going to work too well.

EDIT: x-post with Tubby. Your list looks good to me. Not that you asked for my opinion. :)

Just to play devil's advocate, tub...Willie has mercs, ancient cav, horses, iron, high populations... IIRC, we are strong compared to the Turks and weak compared to the Dutch. I agree, the main reason for the MA is to tie up the Turks, and make sure they don't MA against us. But I don't think we need to be worried about the Turkish chances of taking and holding Dutch cities.

@MM, I was going to turtle up for a few turns after taking the two cities, so Willie can gas hisself a bit, before trudging toward their core. So I agree with you, this is gonna be tough. Are you suggesting I should build a round of trebs after the knights? We only have 2 trebs right now...

@tub, your list looks good to me too. Thanks for it. :) I would just add have 2 settlers ready with the attack force, and raze-and-replace both cities.

After thinking about it.....Risks are just that. I would do as MM suggested and hold off til we get 3-1 ratio against those mercs.

Just to play devil's advocate, tub...Willie has mercs, ancient cav, horses, iron, high populations... IIRC, we are strong compared to the Turks and weak compared to the Dutch. I agree, the main reason for the MA is to tie up the Turks, and make sure they don't MA against us. But I don't think we need to be worried about the Turkish chances of taking and holding Dutch cities.

IMO, the other big reason for the MAs is that we aren't strong enough to take on the Dutch alone. And it would be really nice to see Osman losing a lot of troops trying to take out Mercs for us. If he does manage to take a city or two, not a big deal...they'll be far from his core and not very productive.

Are you suggesting I should build a round of trebs after the knights? We only have 2 trebs right now...

I'd probably build a few. I don't really see us taking a city like Amsterdam without either (a) a huge number of knights or (b) some bombardment support.

I agree with the above. (I've changed my mind about the 1st point and and now on MM's side)

Give the Turks RoP!

Give them RoP, and stop them at the gates of Vienna. Hang on, that was RL (just been to the "Turks" exhibition at the Royal Academy of Arts...).

If he does manage to take a city or two, not a big deal...they'll be far from his core and not very productive.
bingo

We're not going on a blitzkreig to paris here. To paraphrase scout, combined arms, combined arms, combined arms.

IMIO, grasshoppers having good discussion. Now to place winged, multi-faceted eye, flying creature into ointment. What if we take 2 cities on first turn and then send MI, LB and trebs as our follow on forces for the 2nd wave of cities and then switch back to knights for wave 3?

bingo
We're not going on a blitzkreig to paris here. To paraphrase scout, combined arms, combined arms, combined arms.

Damme, that's twice in one game I have to say "Correct, as always, Admiral"!

You feelin' alright?


IMIO, grasshoppers having good discussion. Now to place winged, multi-faceted eye, flying creature into ointment. What if we take 2 cities on first turn and then send MI, LB and trebs as our follow on forces for the 2nd wave of cities and then switch back to knights for wave 3?

Just want to add a note here (and some of you have heard this before):

Focus on the objective. Do not pass "GO", do not "chase strays", go directly and by the shortest route to the target.

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.


I think that's what I meant in my own little deranged way. Have I expounded on plans to become a brain surgeon or rocket scientist? <runs away waving cutlass, trying to load cartridges into revolver>

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.Yup, that's what I meant when I said I'd turtle up for awhile after (hopefully) the two cities are taken. I'll build some more trebs, and possibly other slow movers (knights in the capital, though), while Willie gasses hisself. With any luck, AK will be playing with slow movers in enemy territory, maybe escorted by knight skirmishers.

How did it go? You be the judge...


T1 (130BC) I scout out Foggy City...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_Arnhem.JPG
Yep, they got mercs.
Rush a settler

T3 (90BC) I investigate the cities...
Eindhoven: 2 reg mercs and a treb, building a galley
Arnhem: 3 reg mercs, building library
We want 15 knights, we have...15 knights. Deep breath. War in 2.

T4 (70BC) I position the troops, rush a settler...
(I) The Turks are positioning themselves as if they want to attack Pink Iron, hehe... Little do they know, those units are destined for another civ...

T5 (50BC) I cover our workers near Pink Iron with a 3-man to keep them from temptation anyway.

And here we go!
Declare on Dutch
Sign up the Portuguese against the Dutch for 11gpt
Sign up the Turks against the Dutch for ROP and 17gpt
Declare on Spain
Sign up the Russians against Spain for 13gpt

Battle of Arnhem:
Knight redlines reg merc and dies
Knight kills reg merc
Knight does no damage and retreats
Knight kills reg merc
Knight dies on redlined merc, which upgrades to vet
Knight takes Arnhem! City razed.

Battle of Eindhoven:
Vet 3-man takes two workers that were in the way
...and Eindhoven is covered by a vet merc! That wasn't there before...
Knight takes out vet merc
Knight takes out reg merc!
Knight takes out reg merc! Eindhoven is ours!

Um, what just happened there? Knights musta ate their Wheaties today. :)

Brace for counterattack...

(I) The Ottomans declare war against us. Miraculously, the warrior in Pink Iron holds against two archers, but the 3-man retreats, losing the workers. And the spear pillages our iron. They bring up more archers. There's nothing I can do to save the town.

Here's what it looks like:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_Mach_PinkIron.JPG
And just for fun, the Dutch counterattack...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/TR03_DutchFront.JPG

T6 (30BC) Found Samuha, New Eindhoven
I evacuate the wounded 3-man from Pink Iron, leaving behind the heroic warrior behind. I kill some Ancient Cavs, and divert some knights up toward Pink Iron.
(I) Pink Iron is taken. The heroic warrior managed to kill an archer, but died to the second.

T7 (10BC) Found New Arnhem
Elite Knight defeats wounded ancient cav near New Eindhoven, and we get a leader! Build knight army.
(I) Turks sign Russians up against the Dutch.

T8 (10AD) Pick off some units
(I) We lose the settler and workers that were trying to come in from Spain. Well, I led them on a merry chase, and that spear managed to kill two archers.
And now the Portuguese move 3 archers and a warrior to outside Tyrana. Are they about to attack us??? I bolster the defense in Tyrana.

T9 (30AD) Pick off some more units.
(I) Spain declares war on the Portuguese...
The Ports retreat from Tyrana. Sheesh.

T10 (50AD) Same

Ok, so, we're at war with the Dutch and Ottomans. I replayed that inter-turn a few times, and nothing I did could keep the Ottos from attacking. Dman, you advised me to move all 3-mans to the Dutch front, and I didn't really listen all that well -- I left most of our 3-mans in our border cities, and it still didn't deter the Turks.

The Otto advance is stemmed, but still I lost us our iron. :(

There's a small force in Ivriz to take back Pink Iron, but it's a bit wounded -- the Ottos have hoards of archers that just keep comin'.

The Dutch were concentrating their attacks on New Eindhoven, until I built that army. They are in the process of shifting their focus west.

That's all I can think of saying. Was there anything I could have done to stop the Ottos from attacking? Should I have delayed the Dutch offensive when I suspected the Ottos might attack? They came with two archers and a spear, which I figured they would divert toward the Netherlands once I made the MA...

I don't think our position is all that bad, we have the forces to hold our Dutch takings, and to retake Pink Iron. And I have much faith in A-K. :)

Here's teh save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tr03_mach_50AD.SAV)

Innerestin', very inneresting'.

Been a while since I have seen so aggressive a set of AI's even at this level of play. They are a bunch o' barbarians. The Turk lacks for no resource that I can see. But why is he sending archers :shakehead:

And if that is the case then 3MC's are just the ticket.

I think we can still make use of the chariot guys now that the iron is x-ed, and they are really cheap.

So preserve the knights in the west and play a skirmishing game with Willie, moving our border forward as we can. And send the 3MC's against the Turk.

got it......

Well, this looks like fun.

Given what Osman's just done, it brings me to a point I've always been unsure of - the AIs reputations/attitudes amongst each other.

Ossie just RoP-raped us - does that mean he'll never get another RoP with any of the other AIs ever again? Or are they more forgiving when it comes to "their own"?

I second Bede here.
I've never seen so much agression from AIs, that surely will be a good lesson for us
Strange strange...
I suggest we take pink iron and control over iron back and i believe at that point ottomans will agree on peace deal so we can concentrate on dutch.
Do Ottomans have Salpenter? If they don't they won't get SIpahis and will be really easy target after Dutch problem is solved. (We may re-think dutch war and just keep it going until MAs are expired and then make peace and turn back on Otto or something.)
Sorry my war plan was a blow and the calculated risk of stripping our easter borders didn't play well. :blush:

ON a second thought if we think we can fight 2 front war and use our 3mcs to make some real damage to Ottoman's lets do it.

I took a look at the save again this morning and I saw the Otto's other iron souce is right near our new town of Samuha. One of the 3-mans in there could go over and disconnect it. And if we rush some culture in Samuha, we might bring that iron into our borders, wouldn't that be nice? Sorry I didn't do that earlier...

IIRC, the Ottos do have saltpeter, on a hill. I think it was in or near old Babylon, but don't hold me to that. But they don't seem to have horses...

I don't think we have many 3-mans available as an offensive force, lots of them are stuck in garrisons, but with our production we can build a bunch in a hurry. Currently (IIRC) we have 3 (wounded) knights, a 3-man, a longbow, a med inf, a treb, and a musket near Pink City.

Sorry my war plan was a blow
I don't think it was; it worked perfectly. We gots us some salt. Who could predict what the tricksy Ottos would do?

I can't think clearly right now...
Now i am having another idea on using Knight Army and few knights for active defence against Willie. Make peace with him as soon as Henry signs peace with him or MA expires (whatever comes first) and concentrate on Ottomans..
I am not really sure what is the best way to go.
Either will work but we need to generate new team strategic plan for the future since ottomans messed up our original plans.


@Mach: You played your set of turns very well. It is not your fault Otto's declared on us. You simply can't do anything at all once they decide to start war and enter your territory. MAs don't help as we've discussed it previously.
What we will have to do for future is to keep better garrisons in all border cities and track each and every AI movement inside of our territory. Just to make sure we are not getting caught on the same trick 3rd time in a single game. There should be a good proverb on such a situation. :)

Now i am having another idea on using Knight Army and few knights for active defence against Willie. Make peace with him as soon as Henry signs peace with him or MA expires (whatever comes first) and concentrate on Ottomans..Ya know, the same idea crossed my mind. The Dutch are not going to be harder to conquer than they are right now, what with their cheap mercs, and them in their GA. They'll be easier later, when we have cavs. (Do they have salt now that we took the one source from them?)

The Ottos, on the other hand, are ripe for the picking. They're currently fighting with longbows, archers, and spears. We can disconnect their iron in short order. Plus they sneak attacked us, so we got a grudge to deal with...

I agree, this is a thought to consider.

You played your set of turns very well.Seriously, thanks... :blush: :)

EDIT
and track each and every AI movement inside of our territory.Yeah, learned my lesson there. When the Ports moved those archers next to a city manned by one warrior, plus some sword movement in their territory near that city, I quickly moved two knights into it. They backed off, luckily.

Wow Mach. Trial by fire huh? You did a great job holding off the attacks!

Otto does indeed have saltpeter just south of Konya (Konya is NNE of Babylon). That appears to be his only source of saltpeter. I think that we need to wait out the MA's against Willie and then go after Konya to disable Otto.

Wow, tough break, Mach. But I think you did perfectly well, under the circumstances.

I wonder whether the proximity of Pink Iron to Babylon had anything to do with Osman's sneak attack? I didn't really like building it there, but there really wasn't anything else to do after failing to take Babylon.

I don't know if I agree with focusing on the Ottomans at this point. This is exactly why we wanted to take out the Dutch and Portugeuse in the first place - so we wouldn't have two fronts to guard. I say we stick with the original plan - get our iron back, do whatever else is necessary to get peace with the Ottos, and go back to securing our western border.

Roster:
Tubby Rower
Dman
Minute Man
Bede
Mach - got burned by Otto
A-K - implement operation Righteous Revenge while looking at his new sharp implement
eldar - on deck away this weekend

Tubby,
You got your roster wrong.
Bede played before Mach and Admiral is UP

Ooooh yeah..... Sorry. I 'll change it

Hey, I'll be both on deck and away this weekend. Well, on deck for and hour and a half each way frm France....

Well so will I. I'll be monitoring things in the forums but won't be able to civ any. So if it gets to us then, dman will be on deck and we'll just skip. I hate skipping but in the interest of keeping things moving, we'll do it.

got it. got it. Thought i said that? getting old

got it. got it. Thought i said that? getting oldYou seem to be up in every game.

I wasn't rushing you, just really posting the roster.

A note for AK, if you haven't played yet: I think I hid a worker in a city somewheres near Pink Iron, and then forgot to wake him up again. :blush: Take a look and get him moving again.