Do you approve of the appointment of Donsig as Vice President as valid

Options
Yes
No
Abstain

Private Poll, 48 hours.

Do you approve of the Appointment of Unregistered Citizen Donsig as Vice President

This poll is presented to override a Presidential Appointment of Donsig as Vice President. The nomination was posted March 02 05.19 AM CET. Today is March the 07, 05.45. AM CET. Five days have passed and following the rules

This poll is based on five key principles

1. All Officials in the Chain of Command must be registered citizens
2. All nominated, elected and appointed officials must be registered citizens
3. All Officials in the above points 1. and 2. must be registered in the Fanatannian DGVI Citizen Registry
4. Equality of the law, no one should be allowed legal preference. IE.Civanator missed a deadline for the Presidential nomination and could not run.
5. Fanatannia need a swift and fair decision on the matter


The Poll is Private, and will last for a full 48 hours according to Law.

Options are

Yes
No
Abstain


I have added the following Exhibits.
Exhibit A. Daveshacks Announcement on the Appointment of Donsig as VP
Exhibit B. Constitutional Articles, Confirmation Polls, Deputies and Vacancies
Exhibit C Link to the Presidential Thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112988
Exhibit D Link to Citizen Registry http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112537
Exhibit E Link to Judiciary Thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113140
Exhibit F Link to Election Code Breach thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113678

EXHIBIT A
I am pleased to announce the appointment of Donsig as Vice President.

To all the candidates, thank you very much for your interest in this position. :) It was a very difficult choice, I started writing this post several different times, and had written in each of the candidates at one point or another.

March 02. 05.19. AM CET.

Now, five full days following this date.... is March 07. 05.49. AM CET
This means by the overlap of this 48 hour approval poll, we will under all circumstances have activated both approval and Absence at once.

This Law has already been violated as Donsig has neither registered or posted the last 5 days. No acceptance, no registry and nothing else written.

b. Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3 days in
a thread related to their area without prior notice, the
Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

This Law will be activated by the expiry date of teh maximum seven day absence with notification (this was not notified) of the approval poll (Expiry Date of Approval poll to coincide on the very hour with the Absence deadline with prior notification, itself broken as such).

2. Vacant Offices
a. An official or Justice may declare themselves to be Absent for
a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 week. During
this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and
duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or
Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence,
whichever comes first.

2. Confirmation Polls
a. Confirmation polls are used in certain, specified situations
to challenge the decision of an elected official. Confirmation
polls may be used only when explicitly allowed by law. Any
citizen may create a confirmation poll, should one not already
exist. This poll must be created within 24 hours of the
appointment or decision, and ask the question "Do you approve of the
<description of decision>?", with Yes, No and Abstain option.
If the confirmation poll directly concerns a citizen (e.g.
appointment), this poll is to be private, as it is a form of an
election. The poll will run for 2 days. At the end of the time,
if a majority of the citizens vote "No", the decision is
overturned. Any other result approves the decision.

C. Deputies and Vacancies
1. Deputies
For all positions with deputies, the leader may appoint the
citizen of their choice as their deputy.

2. Vacant Offices
a. An official or Justice may declare themselves to be Absent for
a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 week. During
this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and
duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or
Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence,
whichever comes first.

b. Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3 days in
a thread related to their area without prior notice, the
Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

c. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for
three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice
Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active
Judicial matter for 3 days, the President may declare all
Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a new Chief
Justice.

Putting on polling standards hat.

This poll follows all relevant polling standards. It does not have a link to a discussion thread, but that is not relevant for this topic. :goodjob:

DS. :D

Please observe Exhibit H. That is one of the discussion threads.

Putting on citizen's hat

Fair citizens, this situation could be one of several things.

A simple oversight on donsig's part (not registering). Once he registers the point is no longer valid.
An invalid use of the approval poll mechanism, because the initial time period after the appointment when approval polls are valid has passed.
An invalid use of an approval poll, because the relevant law has not been ratified.


In the demogame we don't deny people the ability to serve our society due to bookkeeping errors. We don't selectively ignore part of a law because we don't agree with it, and we don't rely on unratified laws just because they do what we want.

You should make your decision on whether you want Donsig to be Vice President. There are already other mechanisms in place to withdraw the appointment if the citizenship requirement is not met in a timely manner.

Putting on journalists hat

As an independent Reporter from teh Free Press, The Inquisition I would first like to address the Presidential family member acting as a citizens opinion in favor of the Phantom Vice President.

Fair citizens, this situation could be one of several things.

A simple oversight on donsig's part (not registering). Once he registers the point is no longer valid.
An invalid use of the approval poll mechanism, because the initial time period after the appointment when approval polls are valid has passed.
An invalid use of an approval poll, because the relevant law has not been ratified.


In the demogame we don't deny people the ability to serve our society due to bookkeeping errors. We don't selectively ignore part of a law because we don't agree with it, and we don't rely on unratified laws just because they do what we want.

You should make your decision on whether you want Donsig to be Vice President. There are already other mechanisms in place to withdraw the appointment if the citizenship requirement is not met in a timely manner.


A simple oversight on donsig's part (not registering). Once he registers the point is no longer valid.
An invalid use of the approval poll mechanism, because the initial time period after the appointment when approval polls are valid has passed.
An invalid use of an approval poll, because the relevant law has not been ratified.


I will meet this points one by one showing the true nature of this.


Not a simple oversight at all, the most fundamental duty a citizen of Fanatannia should do is to register as a citizen to enjoy all political and legal rights protected by the Laws and Elected Officials. This principle is Holy.
This is the only valid way to validate or invalidate the appointment of a non-citizen failing to register in the DGVI registry. We closed the doors on several latecomers during election time, and treated these strictly. The same power group has decided to delay the required Judicial intervention for all counts on failed citizen registry requirement, failed for posting within three days requirement and failed notification of absence requirement. In addition, comes the failure to accept the position, which was key in the nomination threads if you can remember. By ignoring to handle this issue in about a week, starting March 1 to March 7, The Presidency and the Judiciary are doing all in their power to prevent this approval from taking place.
They have done nothing to remedy this, but this approval poll is justified.
We went on an election on the same unratified law the President mentioned, and thusly needs to include the remedies in the same unratified law in order to accomodate a check of balances in our system. The very attempt to discourage proper justice is appalling and indeed transgressing citizens rights for approving and disapproving ineligible candidates.
If the ratification was the issue, we would not be playing the game now.





Donsig failed to register in time and has not registered one week into DG6
Presidential Appointment not publicly accepted by Donsig
Donsig has passed the three day notice for elected officials vacancy
Donsig failed to notify any absence, soon to be passed by end of poll
President failed to handle the issue preemptively
Judiciary failed to address the issue preemptively
Presidency and Judicary have stalled timely remedies of the situation
Equality to the law and respect for the Citizen Registry institute must prevail over personal preferential treatment, favoritism and cronyism
Would you like a system where non-citizens become the 2nd official in contested position in the Chain of Command, or trust a non-citizen forgetting to register to serve as nr 2 in the Chain of Command vs a citizen with all formalities in order?
Observe the extremely strict handling on making this poll compared to the extreme leniency to the broken law by our chosen officials


In the demogame we don't deny people the ability to serve our society due to bookkeeping errors. We don't selectively ignore part of a law because we don't agree with it, and we don't rely on unratified laws just because they do what we want.

We do indeed. We had an uncontested Presidential Election due to Civanators absence and coming a little bit to late for nominating himself before deadline, and the same applied to all nominations and acceptances. And not signing up in the citizen registry is not a book keeping error. It is a non-citizenship.
DS and his group do indeed rely on unratified laws, in fact, the present elections were done on a constitution not ratified. So DS is preaching double standards here, and he does indeed ignore both parts of the law and has become elected and made the cabinet structure on same laws..

You should make your decision on whether you want Donsig to be Vice President. There are already other mechanisms in place to withdraw the appointment if the citizenship requirement is not met in a timely manner.

You should make your decision on whether you want Fanatannia to have a Vice President that is a citizen, with all credentials in order, a posting presence and who has followed the vacancy laws as well as appointment procedural laws, and he failed on every single count. There are no other mechanisms in place, or DS and the Judiciary would have enacted them at a much earlier point. I urge you to vote for this poll regardless, and vote No, since it would be a major violation of key state principles, a violation of the constitutional articles and a violation of what is morally right.

Fanatannia deserves a registered citizen as Vice President, and we got almost 100 well qualified candidates to choose from, and the law should serve over old friendships!

Well, I certainly understand where Provo is coming from. So far, the only argument the pro-Donsig side seem to make is "Well, it's Donsig. We all know him." This is, of course, not true. A vast majority of the people who have signed on to the registry for DG6 are newcomers. To them, the actions of a citizen in past Demogames are irrelevant. Thus, we really shouldn't be giving Donsig a pass.

Look at it another way. Imagine if I were the president, and I appointed my friend "Bob" as my VP. Now imagine if Bob never posted in the citizen registry and never posted in the president thread. Wouldn't people be a bit miffed that this person--this unknown non-citizen--got picked to be the Vice President of the Demogame? Now, replace "Bob" with "Donsig", and you can see why some people might be a little upset.

I would also like to add, Provo, that attacking the Judiciary for not handling your request as quickly as you'd like is no way to win friends. Additionally, the language you've used to describe your case against Donsig and DS has been far too negative and accusatory for my tastes. I regret using the phrase "pro-Donsig" in the earlier paragraph, because that would imply that others are "anti-Donsig", and that's really not what this is about. This is about ensuring that the Demogame remains an open forum, where citizens can voice their opinions, make decisions, and run for office based on their own merit and not their "veteran" status.


p.s.- I would like to reitterate that this is in no way a slight on Donsig. But, he has unfortunatly become the focal point of this argument and there is little way to discuss the issue without bringing him up.

I would also like to add, Provo, that attacking the Judiciary for not handling your request as quickly as you'd like is no way to win friends. Additionally, the language you've used to describe your case against Donsig and DS has been far too negative and accusatory for my tastes. I regret using the phrase "pro-Donsig" in the earlier paragraph, because that would imply that others are "anti-Donsig", and that's really not what this is about. This is about ensuring that the Demogame remains an open forum, where citizens can voice their opinions, make decisions, and run for office based on their own merit and not their "veteran" status.

Good that at least one person within the Judiciary chose a different position than the other two. Well, regarding the "friendship" within the Judiciary branch I am not troubled at all.


For me a clean conscience and following the laws, codes and principles of a democracy government game simulation key to my gaming experience, and in that space there is very little room for trading favors with friends. I have tried that too another game, and to my surprise I became backstabbed and so on by people I considered to be on good terms with, and learnt that the only true friend you can have is fundamentally strong principal base where you advocate for right and wrong in the legal arena. Far too long I ignored legalities and procedural mechanisms. And it is indeed very troubling that you say you need "friends" in the Judiciary. Is it to get preferential treatment?
Why did they "forget" the Mid Term Consular Approval Vote they wrote in themselves?

I have no issues with DS , but the fact that he did not preempt the problem when he appointed Donsig. Donsig has done no harm by doing nothing, except for filling an office someone else could be more productive and motivated in.
In fact, Nobody could be good as anybody in the VP position, but since Nobody is not Donsig, but Nobody, Nobody did not get the position. Now, no one, nobody, not even Nobody do have the position, and now we know that not just anybody can become, but they got to be somebody. Right? :D

The biggest problem I had was with the CJ that rejected cooperation in the outset, and the later attempts to minimize the problem, the identifier of the problem and the remedies of the problem. I will not be hard on the verbal excesses anymore, and would constructively work around the issues, maybe sometimes point out indiscrepiances. I will also show the people that the Judiciary is for the people, not abive the people, and I appreciate you share that vision Ash. Now, all officials need some public support, and that requires posting and involving the people, not just signing up for the nr 2 job and leave.

this poll is still invalid:
2. Confirmation Polls
a. Confirmation polls are used in certain, specified situations
to challenge the decision of an elected official. Confirmation
polls may be used only when explicitly allowed by law. Any
citizen may create a confirmation poll, should one not already
exist. This poll must be created within 24 hours of the
appointment or decision, and ask the question "Do you approve of the
<description of decision>?", with Yes, No and Abstain option.
If the confirmation poll directly concerns a citizen (e.g.
appointment), this poll is to be private, as it is a form of an
election. The poll will run for 2 days. At the end of the time,
if a majority of the citizens vote "No", the decision is
overturned. Any other result approves the decision.

Once again, invalid poll due to time.

I will commend Provo, however, for creating a well-formatted poll. States the question, the options and the parameters in a neutral manner with the lobbying starting in the next post.

-- Ravensfire

The poll is indeed valid, as President Daveshack very recently APPOINTED Donsig another time, giving him a 24 notice to answer the call, and the following Exhibit G from the Presidential thread proves that this poll has been put up within 24 hours of this Appointment, giving 24 hours for Donsig to accept the position. This means that the 24 hour deadline clause for putting up the approval poll has been reactivated by the following:

Exhibit G, 04.07. AM 7. of March

Daveshack On the legality of the appointment, we have had cases of nominations being accepted by non-registered people, and typically the problem is resolved by having that person register. Nominations have to be explicitly accepte in public. Likewise this same principle should be used for appointments. I will set a 24 hour time for donsig to register and accept the appointment, after which the appointment must be assumed to be unaccepted, and a new candidate will be chosen.

There were three candidates who applied via PM. The choice was a very difficult one because all three are unable to serve as DP at present (don't have Conquests) and have somewhat similar interests. I had written draft appointment announcements for all three at various times. I finally decided on donsig because his interest in making sure that citizens have full information in the forum coincided with one of the things I was hoping a vice president could do.

Provolution, you had a better mechanism of challenging this appointment at your disposal. Just post an approval poll "do you approve of this appointment Y/N/A?", private, and 48 hour duration.

Also do notice that the President himself recommended putting up this poll.

I therefore call humbly for the Judiciary to retract its decision on the basis of the fact that the quoted appointment has been reacted to in due time.

The poll still stands as testament to the Judiciarys interest in the manner.
So I recommend the poll to run its course. We could have had a working VP by now serving the nation, but we don't. The Judiciary has itself failed by letting this case get out of hand, no credible VP in place.

The only thing the people can do now is to state their position on this, and hope that the Judiciary will find a replacement with no further procrastination.

It will be valid the second Donsig registers.

The Approval poll still runs, since this is about the question of trust in the system.
The actions shown in the discussion thread of this poll makes it evident that we need a replacement under all circumstances.

I bump this attempted obscured poll.

It will be valid the second Donsig registers.
As a matter of fact. Donsig actualy registered himself.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2606998&postcount=97

If this thread is for decideding if we will except donsig as vice-president, then its ok and i vote yes for him as vice-president (i don't care i wasnt picked) but if its about if the presidents appointment was legal, isnt that for the court to decide?

After seing that Donsig has posted his registery. I do regret voting no :sad:.

I'm still amazed (and rather annoyed) this even became an issue...

This poll doesn't do anything except inflame the situation.

Again, this poll is invalid. Currently donsig is not the vice president. Once ashburnham posts his decision, DaveShack may reappoint donsig. Then a new poll must be started if someone wants it.

That sounds perfectly good to me. As a Consul I will definitively vote for Donsig, as he is one of the best contributors to the game, and I miss his work as Finance Minister.
However. this will be a reminder to the many legal holes we need to fix.
Again, for many of us, it is a matter of principle, the citizen registry is quite The Institution that should be respected over old friendships and cutting corners.
We should also respect the laws above anything else, and not start a condemnation of those seeking to rectify the processes.

That sounds perfectly good to me. As a Consul I will definitively vote for Donsig, as he is one of the best contributors to the game, and I miss his work as Finance Minister.
However. this will be a reminder to the many legal holes we need to fix.
Again, for many of us, it is a matter of principle, the citizen registry is quite The Institution that should be respected over old friendships and cutting corners.
We should also respect the laws above anything else, and not start a condemnation of those seeking to rectify the processes.

We should start the condemnation of those who wish to be anal and start a war over a minor error that could be fixed with a single PM. This situation has exploded, it was handled badly from the beginning.

Fixing laws is fine and all, but it must be done with common courtesy and respect.

Well, that is a two way venue, and signing the Citizen registry is very basic.
One week is a long time for the nr 2 in the CoC.

I vote YES.

Come on folks. Are we here to play a game, or throw temper tantrums over minor things based on issues in the past?

I vote YES.

Come on folks. Are we here to play a game, or throw temper tantrums over minor things based on issues in the past?
The reason I voted "no" in the first place was because he did not register properly in the citizens thread and that was it. I kept Donsig's Demogame past where they belong. Now that he has registered, I would wish to have my vote to be changed to a yes. (Though I do feel guilty on not waiting untill Donsig actualy registered before voting :sad: )

Well, this poll is non-valid as the Judicary made the similar decision as the poll initially showed, and the President is presently reviewing new VP candidates afresh.

The Judiary considered this topic and made a ruling on it. Donsig has registered as a citizen. DaveShack has made a midterm appointment of Donsig as VP. This poll is moot.