Not much to report. Game on!

You mean you didn't make any attacks on the rampaging Danish hordes?

Monks arrive in England to chronicle recent events.
Norse vikings raid Frankish coasts.

The Norse continue their campaign against the Anglo-Saxons and two armies are sent marching against them. One from the North and one from the South. More troops are being sent to the region to ensure the onslaught continues as planned.

The Franks are certainly on their last legs now as the cities of Nantes, Angers, and Blois are emptied with more troops poised outside other cities ready to continue the slaughter. The cities of Rheims and Laon contributed nothing to our advance, thus removed nothing from it as well when they were lost to the German invader. We are glad, however, that we had a warning of their arrival so we could at least make them pay for these cities in blood.

It is not a matter of if, but of when we will claim all of Normandy for ourselves.

You mean you didn't make any attacks on the rampaging Danish hordes?
Well, I only killed a chief. ;)

DANES 811 AD

* Monks ransomed in Frisia.
* Danes capture Utrecht.
* Anglo-saxons defeat a Danish fleet attacking London. The heroic victory make the Anglo-saxons devise strategies to defend their homelands. The Anglo-Saxons may now build the Burghal Hidage.

I am away until Aug 2 (living in luxury at the Pickfair House in Beverly Hills, with rich relatives). If I can DL everything, I will try to play from here.

Otto continued the French campaign by taking Compiegne, but his Nobles grew tired of war and intervened behind his back, arranging an ignoble treaty of peace with the heathens. Otto vows to find a way around this meddling in Empire affairs.

Since the Danes disdained the Proclamation of 808AD by invading Utrecht, Otto seized the walled Danish city of Oldenburg. Danish spearmen, raiders and a chief were slain in the battle. The Danes are advised to remove from Frisia immediately or face true Saxon wrath.

BTW - I forgot to set this (new) computer to "pause at end of turn" and had an unfortunate incident, and had to replay part of my turn. I did not see anything and did not have to replay any battles, so I don't think any harm was done.

I det store landet uten konge, alle mennesker naa venter paa Olav og mange andre blodige nordmenn.

This is a Viking game after all. The use of some Viking language looks appropriate ;)

Då kan jag och Morten skriva på våra hemspråk då. ;)
(Then me and Morten can write in our native tounges.)

Anyways, I have an important message to all. From august 10 - 26 I will be in Bulgaria. At my enxt turn I will clear my password (will play as many turns as I will make until my trip though) and then I think one of my allies can play for me while I'm gone. Well he may as well take over the civ if he likes. Any one up for it? Patient?
On a side note. My own computer has crashed. It's beyond repair. It means all my civ modifications etc. is LOST. :( All my work is gone! :cry:
I will probably buy a new computer after the trip though. And for now I can use my dads to play in this PBEM.

. Any one up for it? Patient?

My own computer has crashed. It's beyond repair. It means all my civ modifications etc. is LOST. :( All my work is gone! :cry:
.
1) Patient? (but with all the gold we are going to earn as plunder from Viking cities, we can sure afford to help you buy that new computer).

2) Condolences (I have also experienced that ...aaaargh!)

I don't think I'm on for any more civs in this game, thanks.

Frankish turn....

Okay then. I'm sure la fayetter or peaster wants to play my civ then. :)

Turn coming up soon.

Nothing to report. Keeping the Danes at bay.

I'm sure la fayetter or peaster wants to play my civ then. :)


Of course yes, if no one minds (but I would very much prefer that you get a new computer and stay with us :) ).

Of course yes, if no one minds (but I would very much prefer that you get a new computer and stay with us :) ).
Well, I can't play during my two weeks vacation. But after that.

A young prince rises to yield the sword from the rock, claiming the Scottish throne.

The Scottish town of Waterford finally reaches an adequate size for the Norse to lay claim to.

The Anglo-Saxon town of Sutton, flanked by a supported Spearmen (?), is added to our domain, with the Spearmen disappearing into the hills looking for food to survive.

The Frankish cities of Nantes, Angers, and Blois join our cause.

Thor is called upon to guild our forces against the Germans. Striking between the cities of Compiegne and Laon, Thor makes both cities available for us to reoccupy.
A stack of a Spearmen and two Monks falls to our ships with another Monk being unguarded appearing to have tried to charge at Rouen being captured by our troops.

The cities of Cambrai and Rheims are emptied and added back under our control. Further exploration down the Germans connected Ruins finds a stack of units near Aachen. It is also noted that the rumored location of a Coronation Sword is no more. The stack is topped by a Swordsmen, but it is guessed that a much more powerful force is with it. Once again Thor is called upon to give us guidance and removes the stack of units before us as well as empting the city they were near.

The city of Aachen proves too fragile to be conquered again and falls in ruins, taking with it the Wonder of Charlemagne.

The German proclimation of protection for other Kings lands while having little in the way of resistence themselves makes us wonder about the strength of these lands they claim to protect. Thus, we turn an eye to the Frisians.

The city of Cologne is added to our Empire, as well as the city of Bruges. The city of Ghent is emptied of defenders.

Seems a bit one-sided, this game....I don't know, Morten, but as an MP game I'm not sure it works. I certainly won't ever want to play a Christian kingdom again against a Viking who knows what he is doing...You would need to invest months of time in a steady and inevitable retreat - even if one day it were possible to turn the tide, I would have given up long before then.

In SP, it would be a fascinating challenge, of course, and as you could progress the game quickly, you could be hoping to strike back here and there before the evening's play was finished, thus making the game much more fun....

DANES 814AD

Proper sacrifice being made, the Danes called upon the might of Thor, attacking Hamburg with the aid of his terrible powers.

After the battle the Danish king woved never again to let such destruction take place in his domains, and while Danish warriors eagerly took possession of the once great Saxon city, the Danish king solemnly accepted baptism, with the vow to root out the remnants of pagan beliefs within his realm.

Following the recapture of the walled city of Oldenburg, the Danes learned the custom of the Lord's prayer, allowing them to perform their new proper faith in specially constructed holy buildings.

The Saxon king, which was sighted near Magdeburg, will no doubt strike back hard on the Danish invaders, why king Sven himself has decided to join the campaign in Saxony, along with his hirdsmen.

In the Anglo-saxon lands, Nottingham was taken in Danish possession without battle. In the east, the barbarian lords of Smolensk was persuaded to swear allegiance to king Sven.

Seems a bit one-sided, this game....I don't know, Morten, but as an MP game I'm not sure it works. I certainly won't ever want to play a Christian kingdom again against a Viking who knows what he is doing...You would need to invest months of time in a steady and inevitable retreat - even if one day it were possible to turn the tide, I would have given up long before then.

In SP, it would be a fascinating challenge, of course, and as you could progress the game quickly, you could be hoping to strike back here and there before the evening's play was finished, thus making the game much more fun....
I know what you're saying and the same thing crossed my mind too, following the onslaught of this game. I still think though, along the lines of one of my previous posts, that there's a great difference between the kind of onslaught that the vikings fight and have fought until now, and the kind of bonified campaign that the christian civs can mount if or when they play defensively and slowly build up from behind the coasts.

It is much more fragile from the viking side, and much harder to do, than we make it seem from the outside. The vikings cannot concentrate a lot of forces in one place, in the fear of foreign emissaries hurting you real bad. This makes every move just as precarious as it is for the christian civs.

All that said, I'd like to hear suggestions for improvements to the balance of the game, to make it more mp-friendly. Any ideas?

In the next update, I've already removed the Danish and Norse heirs, making their journeys to get a king longer than the other civs. This means a lot to the early game, I think. But I am not sure if this is enough. Does the christian civs need other or earlier means of defenses? Are the Drakkars too powerful? Should some techs or wonders be available earlier?

I think John getting tossed the Scots at the last second didn't provide much in the way of preparation for them and that allowed them to just be run through. Normally they should at least be able to slow down the Norse a bit to allow the other Civs extra time to prepare their defenses. On top of that, one very crucial error by the Franks opened an opportunity for them to get hurt much earlier than would have normally been possible.

Add to that the great cooperation between the Norse and Danes and the somewhat (?) cooperation between the Christian powers. I'm not so sure it is the game design that caused the situations, but a series of events that led to where we are now.

I think just removing the Heirs from the Norse and Danes would remove their early ablility to have powerful land units. That would leave them in the ever contstant situation of being able to raid from the seas but not really be able to push inland all that well. That alone will give the Christian powers more time to hold out against the Vikings.

One thing I would change though is the number of Barbarian units in the core of the Christian powers lands. The units in the heart of the Franks territory not only make it where they have to not only try to block the Norse/Danes but deal with these inland threats as well. Wouldn't their lands be basically under control and free from interrior threats?

I think changing those two things would allow for the balance of the game to favor the Vikings early on (as it should) but allow time for the Christian powers to prepare their defenses and (barring any crucial mistakes) eventually start to push back on the Vikings.

I think those are both constructive suggestions, Duke. I can't really comment on the game balance vis a vis the Scots or Franks, as they were both hindered by my stupid play.

However, the Anglos-Germans-Friesians have played pretty well it seems, and pretty well co-ordinated, but it doesn't seem to be helping them much....

The Holy Saxon Empire was shaken this year by horrible storms in Hamburg and Normandy. Many of our greatest warriors were lost, and the heathens were quick to take advantage of the disorder. Our mighty armies in France have not been heard from since Spring and are feared dead.

Archbishop Jurgen of Koblenz has decreed that the protection of other Kings, (who have not paid any tithes to the Empire whatsoever) is up to Our Lord and Our Lord alone. Jurgen preaches that the Great Storms of 814 are merely His punishment of Otto for arrogant claims to power.

Nevertheless, Otto still commands the respect of the Saxon warrior class. Our horsemen made a surprise raid on the Danish port of Johnsburg and razed the town. We recaptured Hamburg by force, and persuaded a Viking Chief in Oldenburg to join the Empire for just few coins. Our nearly exhausted men pushed on through the winter to capture the Danewirke in Hedeby, raze the Danish capital of Jelling, and capture the port city of Ribe.

We are pleased to hear that Sven has accepted Baptism, and hope that the Danes will soon forge better relations with their Christian neighbors as a result. Perhaps they will even teach the Truth to the pagans from Norway.

The scenario seems unbalanced to me, too. But the Viking victories may have been the result of greater skill or better luck with huts, battles, etc, so I am keeping an open mind. I hope all players will share their passwords when the game is over, so we can all see what really happened.

Opinions about Germany:

1) Germany has some great advantages over the other Christian nations, such as our short coastline, plentiful monks and our access to barb cities. So, the other Christian nations, especially the smaller ones, need most of the help. I'd suggest giving them a few War Galleys, Knights, etc, so they have at least a slight chance to defy the Vikings on land or sea.

2) Reduce the supply of German monks. Twenty can build long "railroads" from runes very quickly, allowing fairly strong attacks with just a few units (eg our 808 and 814 turns). This trick is cool, but not very realistic, and it could unbalance the game unpredictably. With a slightly better stock of attack units, Germany might have turned the tables in France or Denmark even in the first 5 turns of this game.

3) I guess you (Morten) intended German missionaries to pop huts in the east to gain Allies. In this game (but not in my play-testing of the previous version), these units were quickly wiped out by hordes of barb Knights and by ambushes. Luckily, I did get one Giant this time, but the Vikings probably got much more help from huts. So, you might reduce the barb level in the east and/or remove some huts from the North.

But IMO, the arrival of super-units such as Giants and Kings from huts or Swords is pretty unpredictable. These units will unbalance future games unless you make other changes, such as giving several of them to each civ at the start. Or narrow the gap between super-units and the useless Christian units such as spearmen and archers, etc.

4) I am still a PBEM newbie, but I felt the start of the game was a bit chaotic. I play-tested the first version of the scen posted here, but didn't have time to test the latest revision or to think thru human/AI issues. AFAIK the Christian players did not talk until approx the 2nd-3rd turn. I am not sure this made a BIG difference, but I might have saved my Heir, and we might have avoided some other subtle mistakes.

Whos turn is it? :confused:

Norsemen : Duke of Marlbrough
Danes : Morten Blaabjerg
Germans : Peaster
Anglo-Saxons : la fayette
Franks : Patient English
Frisians : Arthedain
Scots : open (Patient English)

Sorry,
after all that heated discussion about balance, I simply forgot that Otto had played his turn :(

When the mighty Norse warriors saw English weapons twinkling in the sunshine, they suddenly stopped their onslaught.

"Why should we die so young on this green island while our brothers accross the channel have their pockets full of Enola Gays that they have great fun throwing at their foes ?"

(Alfred waiting for the conclusion of some diplomatic action in the meantime)

The glorious city of Nottingham has been removed from dirty Danish hands.
Norse weapons can be seen twinkling in the sunshine, not very eager to feel the taste of English steel IMO.

No combats....

Cologne retaken for now.

Oh yeah.. my plane leaves on wednesday.. happy civing while I'm gone. :king:

I'm in the process of playing. It may take a couple days due to work load and GOTM updates.

Oh yeah.. my plane leaves on wednesday.. happy civing while I'm gone. :king:
Happy holidays, man :cool:

Sorry for the delay. Not much to report despite the long wait.

Finally a young warrior emerges, drawing with ease the Sword of Coronation.
With the sacred vow to fend off barbarians from all Scotland, a new king is crowned at Scone Palace.
Danes Develop Baptisim! (Missionary)
The Norse king receives baptism! Heathen rituals of sacrifice are banned! The pope dispatches a missionary to root out the remnants of pagan beliefs.
The Danish king is proven the faith, and receives baptism! Heathen rituals of sacrifice are banned! The pope dispatches a missionary to Jelling, to baptize the Danish people.
Danish vikings raid Normandy.
Christian Monks settle in Ireland.
Monks offer their services to the Saxon crown.

The Frankish cities of Amiens and Le Mans fall to our troops. Chartres has been emptied of its defenders. Troops advance on the city of Ferrieres and Arras.

The Frisians lose the city of Antwerp to a few coins and turns over a fleet of ships that will be used to bring troops to lay siege to Dorestad. The city of Ghent is brought under our control.

A Saxon Monk and swordsmen that wandered too close to our lines are of concern no more.

817AD

After the fall of Danevirke, the Danish king Sven commenced negotiations of peace at the mighty Saxon king's camp south of Jelling.

But it appears, recent events have overridden these negotiations. While discussing peace terms, Danish delegates witnessed the spectacular arrival of a cloaked man from the North, rushing into the camp from the seaside. This grey excellence in blue garments invited the Saxon king to play a game of dice in his tent, from where none of them were ever seen again.

Deprived of their king, the Saxon camp broke into confusion. Soon Danish chiefs decided to openly defy their king's orders, taking advantage of the situation, attacking the Saxon forces. The Saxon forces was quickly sent on the run, and many monks were ransomed.

Hedeby and Danevirke were liberated, along with Oldenburg, Ribe and Hamburg.

Hearsay claims, that the cloaked man was in fact the human shape of Loke, summoned by pagan deeds in Uppsala, recently claimed by the Norse.

Loke Smokey ! As GrandHerren Hairichen used to say - "Never trust a Viking!"

The proud Saxons did their best without a king, with somewhat fewer monks, and with epidemics on the rise after the horrible storms of 814AD. The citizens of Hamburg revolted against barbaric Danish rule, and handed over a giant and a drakkar to the Church. We performed the annual Recapture-of-Oldenburg ritual this summer, and expect an even bigger crowd next year.

The Mayor of Schwerin accepted Baptism this year, along with those other tribal leaders in the North, who are apparently concerned about their reputations. However, the good Mayor has wisely pledged full support of the True Church.

Due to heavy storms and muddy Danish roads, the Saxon army could not quite reach the tiny village of Hedeby this year. However, Lord Karl III of Mainz led a brave group of Saxon Raiders to victory over a band of Danish spearmen outside the south gates. Some witnesses report that the Danish King was also killed in the Battle of the Marsh.

Save file?

I'm uncertain as to what happened but it appears one of my Giants was somehow passed to the Danes despite not being gifted over. I'm not too thrilled with that, especially since it sounds as if he is in the hands of the Germans now.

Duke: I don't understand your post ... how could you lose a giant in northern Germany, and how do you know it was lost ? But anyway, if you and Morten decide that something went wrong with the program, we should probably replay before La Fayette takes his turn.

I opened Mortens save in single player mode and I am one Giant down. The Giant missing was exploring far far up north and somehow ended up with the Danes.

I looked at my save and the Giant is missing from there but I don't understand how it happened or is even possible. Even if I tried gifting it to the Danes there is no way I could have. You can only gift units that are in cities and that are not alone. He was neither.

Perhaps the Giant was willing to say "no" to the Holy Church :) ?
Anyway, I am ready to play, but I'll wait until those "gigantic" affairs are settled.

That is indeed very strange. I simply assumed he had been gifted to me along with other units this turn.

I opened Mortens save in single player mode ...

I thought we decided on a "no peeking" policy, but maybe I misunderstood. While I am thinking about rules, here are a couple of ploys (which seem OK to me, but maybe not... opinions ?)

* Building a long line of runes to function as a railroad. It did not occur to me that this might be illegal, but I recently noticed a rule against doing such things with airports in cfc gotms.

* Suppose my nobles (eg the Senate) declare peace with the Norse, but I want war. I can talk to [the AI of] an allied civ such as France, which will probably ask me to join them in their war against the Norse. I don't think the nobles block this kind of deal.


I looked at my save and the Giant is missing from there but I don't understand how it happened or is even possible. Even if I tried gifting it to the Danes there is no way I could have. You can only gift units that are in cities and that are not alone. He was neither.

I still don't understand. Was it first missing at the beginning of your 817AD turn, or at the end of it, or in Morten's save ? Could it have been killed by barbs, or loss of its home city, or from shield/support problems, etc ? I guess Morten can tell us where the giant in Hamburg came from.

You can certainly gift units that are not in cities thru civ2dip [I am not sure about other methods] but I seriously doubt that happened here :) And even then, the unit would not pop into Germany.

The unit appeared in Aggersborg on this turn, and was transported by a Drakkar to Ribe, after it had been conquered by my Drakkar and missionary in a dual effort. He then traveled along the 'rails' to wipe out all German resistance as far as Hamburg, in cooperation with the Drakkars taking out all the monks.

@RE: The Runes as RR's
I would say the usage of the runestones for this purpose was no way intended, I never actually thought of it being used this way. It caused a great deal of frustration for both Duke and me, but ultimately I let it pass, as in part I was interested in seeing how far this trick could be pulled, or how it would backfire, as this pbem is partly a multiplayer test pbem.

In the next update, I will remove the Radio tech to a viking exclusive, where the trick will be much more difficult to pull off, since they don't get the free monks, and generally have poorer production. I would like runestones to be able to be built, for ravens and hammers, but I could also exclude the tech from the game completely, or make it a 'house rule' not to emply them like this.

RR's are still in the scenario btw, but at a much later phase of the game, where they don't have such a huge importance.

@Diplomacy and war
In a pbem I would say all diplomatic contact to the AI outside the agreement between players is prohibited. The case with democracy and war is a touchy one, but I think it is a disadvantage of being in a holy empire, that you nobles squabble a lot, which should generally be accepted.

But since there's a lot of makeaggression events in this game for the vikings vs the christian civs, you will very fast find yourself at war again, even if your nobles sign a treaty. So in most cases it won't be a big problem to get to war again.

Morten - I guess you can decide what to do. Should we replay starting with Duke's 817AD turn, or just go on?

I just assumed that transportation was the main purpose of the monks + runes. I think it would be enough to make a house rule against this ploy, included in the readme.txt. If you remove this feature, I would lower my previous assessment of Germany's chances to defend (and to enjoy the game) quite a bit. IMO it's best to remove it, and then create some other viable positive options for the Christians to choose from while they try to ride out the storm.

Here's my save with the Giant staying where he was.

Duke, I assume this means you're taking the Giant back and want us to replay without it? I'll test and see if the Giant appears after accepting your civ2dip offer, and then replay my turn.

The Giant didn't appear this time around, and neither did the other gifted units. I replayed my turn, albeit a little differently without the Giant. Hope this is acceptable, even though I cut the roads in a different place, and the Danish missionary traveled as far as Lüneburg (which was destroyed) and Hildesheim (which was conquered).

Basically the same units were deployed, and are still at risk, so even though it seems I accomplished more this turn, it may not necessarily be so. But as I was 1 Giant shorter, so the Germans will also be now, of course.

What do you mean there were no gifted units? Everything should have been the same as last time just with no Giant....?

I just checked and it looks like the e-mail I sent you last night didn't go through so I resent it. It seems I may be having issues with my CFC e-mail, but it looks to have gone through this time.

Vikings - I get the feeling you guys aren't telling us everything. There was a civ2dip file involved between you this turn? Was the same file used in the replay ?

Also, can we have a clarification about "peeking" ? Duke said he completely disagrees with it, and Morten wrote

"I personally think it may spoil the game, so I think we should disallow 'peeking' in this game, understood as the checking of other civ's powers via the AI taking over their play."

I do not completely understand the 2nd half of this statement, but I interpreted this as a "no peeking" rule.

I am willing to accept Morten's ruling about the nobles, but it does not seem to be covered by ...

"Contacting or trading techs with another players AI without agreement or alliance is also a no-no. Establishing caravan routes without agreement is okay I believe, within the framework of civ2."

...since the ploy would occur only with the AI of an allied player, and by agreement.

@Peaster
We aren't telling you everything ;) - But the same files were used, even though I still don't know where the Giant came from... It remains a mystery, but it was clearly not Duke's intention of giving it to me, and hardly was he capable of it, since doing with Civ2Dip would make it active only on the next turn, and doing it with the AI would require the unit to be in a designated city.

We'll work the unit trades out via email, as it really doesn't belong here, for confidentiality reasons.

To clarify the other things :

Contacting an allied AI after agreement, for facility of trading (be it maps, units or techs) is one thing, but contacting an AI player to 'bend the rules of civ2' (which I think it accounts to) is unfair, IMHO. If you think otherwise, I am willing to accept it, though.

No peeking : What I meant by the quote was the peeking of a turn, where you let the AI play the other players' turns to get an idea of their forces and capabilities. I see no harm in looking at the save the way you suggested yourself, in SP mode, where no civs take moves. I personally haven't done this, as I haven't seen the need to, but I accept that others may play differently.

@Peaster
We aren't telling you everything


Of course not! But surely you understand that this kind of situation is delicate. The players involved should be open about relevant info.

...contacting an AI player to 'bend the rules of civ2' (which I think it accounts to) is unfair, IMHO

Why do you think it bends the rules ? AFAIK this is perfectly legal in GOTMs, which have an incredibly long list of rules compiled over many years. I have heard of MP rules against contacting a second player's AI, but IMO the intention is to protect the second player from abuses.

It is unlikely that everybody will agree on what bends the rules, what breaks the rules, and what just takes advantage of game mechanics. IMO the rules should be clearly stated before the game starts. Hasn't the MP/PBEM community made any effort to do that?



No peeking : What I meant by the quote was ... you let the AI play the other players' turns to get an idea of their forces and capabilities.

Wow ! Was anyone considering that kind of peeking ?

Whether it's 'bending the rules' or 'taking advantage of game mechanics' it is a matter of opinion IMO. If you insist on being able to do this and nobody else objects, I am ok with it.

AFAIK there's no detailed pbem rules list. As each scenario is different, it'd probably be difficult to work something like this out for each occasion that arises.

817AD #2 was even worse for Germany than 817AD #1, as the Danes played a little better this time :mad: [At 'Poly, "replay" means you perform exactly the same actions as before - as much as possible]. But maybe 817AD #2 did not go so well for the Danes either;

The proud Viking Chieftain who abandoned Denmark a few years ago returned in 817AD to destroy the evil Danewirke and the village of Hedeby. Perhaps there was some truth to those rants about Loke deceiving the Danish rabble, for their King fled across the border and joined Saxony. Unfortunately, an Emperial Guard has been required day and night, to protect him from the many angry Germans who want to see his head on a pike.

------------------------

I have not used the alliance-to-declare-war ploy yet in this game (though my memory is fuzzy about 817AD #1). If there are no objections before 820AD, I will probably use it. I agree that it is a matter of opinion whether it should be legal, but rules should be decided in advance, and there are many many factors in this scen that already favor the Vikings.

IMO making a rough set of MP rules would be (would have been?) worth the effort. I doubt that a new scenario would require very many adjustments. BTW, I have heard of some "rah rules" at 'Poly for MP, but don't have a link to them...

I am ready to play
but I would very much like to get a clear explanation of what happened in the "affair of the disappearing giant" before I play.
I have read what has been written in this thread, but many points remain unclear to me: has there been diplomatic action previously? has the giant really disappeared? has a turn been replayed without trying to make the same moves as in the previous turn?
If someone has a clear view, please help me :crazyeye:

I admit not playing precisely the same as the previous turn, as for one I couldn't without the Giant, and second, the game was based on completely different presuppositions, with one unit less (which means a great deal to the Danes right now).

In the previously played turn, my Giant was clearing the tracks for my missionary, in the newly played one my king and raider came to perform the action instead, admittedly going a little further...

As it turned out, the second turn stands out perhaps even worse than the first for me, losing the Danevirke wonder in the process, so nothing has basically changed balance-wise. I managed to destroy a German city, the Germans managed to destroy a Danish city, and gained a king in return for a Giant - so I suppose Peaster won't have much to complain about either.

I can testify to that the Giant remains where he was, with the Norse, although noone knows how he came to appear in one of my cities, other than it must've been a mixup/flaw in the trading mechanics of either civ2 or civ2dip. Unless the Giants have begun an act on their own in this game...

My turn and the diplomatic action have all remained the same, just that the Giant was confirmed as to have been left where he should have been. I have no idea how it was moved to the control of the Danes, since gifting units through Civ2Dip requires a turn to pass to avoid double movement of the unit and a gift through a players AI requires the unit to be in a city and not the lone unit in that city.

The Giant in question was at 23,17 and was exploring 'Fire Island' in the far north. He was not gifted through Civ2Dip nor through the AI. I am lost as to how he ended up under the control of the Danes and transported to their city.

All this was just to get him back where he belonged.

Morten's account is accurate, but by going further than before, he caused fairly serious losses to Germany that he has no way of knowing about. I think he and I agree that Denmark and Germany were both hurt by the replay, but probably less than the value of the giant.

It still seems a little strange that Morten didn't notice the extra giant in Denmark, and that DoM hasn't answered my questions. I am not complaining too much, because I am about ready to write the game off anyway. And because a quick poll of the Allies did not support a strong complaint.

This is a game
and some mystery remaining doesn't scare me.
I'll play my turn tomorrow.

(I like the idea of a giant ready to move against the orders given by the AI :) )

Morten's account is accurate, but by going further than before, he caused fairly serious losses to Germany that he has no way of knowing about. I think he and I agree that Denmark and Germany were both hurt by the replay, but probably less than the value of the giant.

It still seems a little strange that Morten didn't notice the extra giant in Denmark, and that DoM hasn't answered my questions. I am not complaining too much, because I am about ready to write the game off anyway. And because a quick poll of the Allies did not support a strong complaint.

I'm not sure what you mean. Morten did notice the Giant, but he just assumed I had gifted it to him along with some other units. Not until I started to read of Giants in the Danes hands did I know of it and then wondered where it came from since I had heard nothing of it before when I was given accounts of the Danes resourses.

What questions were not answered? I believe everything was touched on already. I'll kind summarize what happened from my side to see if that clarifies anything.

When I saw the Giant discussion I pulled Mortens save and checked the Norse situation in SP mode (During the course of the game I saw many times were the save was pulled multiple times so I assumed people were checking the game already.). I then checked it to the save that I had started that turn with and saw I was down a Giant. A quick check of all my Giants told me which one had disappeared.

The Giant was gone in the save I posted so I had to go back and redo the end of my turn and made sure he stayed where he was suppose to be. Morten then played off of that save, which the only difference was that he did not have the Giant. Nothing else from the game file or diplomatic relations was different.

Units given thru civ2dip don't pop in from nowhere and they cannot move in the same turn that they arrive. I'd expect Morten to know this and think twice about the giant. Also, if I got a giant from another player, I'd expect some kind of discussion along with it.

I guess your last post answers my question about when the giant disappeared - between the start of your 817AD turn and the end of it (correct?). I cannot think of anything to cause that either - probably just a computer glitch of some sort - or Loke.

No giant in sight :sad:

Great...even the Norse I can attack with my one remaining horseman unit are protected with airplanes ("Ravens")!

Where are the Christian "magic" units Morten? I could use a damn good archangel strike right now....:)

I feared a trap being 'sprung' on me once I started my advance inland so I tried to cover as many options as possible. :D

Where are the Christian "magic" units Morten? I could use a damn good archangel strike right now....:)
I actually considered putting them in the game (they're in the units.gif), but ultimately decided against it, in favor of a 'strictly rational' christendom. The vikings being the mystical pagans and the christians representing the rational march of inevitable medieval progress... That, and I ran out of events-space. But I'd very much like to hear any ideas :)

Archers and other missile-borne units can attack Ravens, btw.

Archers and other missile-borne units can attack Ravens, btw.

Shhhhsh !

Anyways, I have an important message to all. From august 10 - 26 I will be in Bulgaria. At my enxt turn I will clear my password (will play as many turns as I will make until my trip though) and then I think one of my allies can play for me while I'm gone. Well he may as well take over the civ if he likes. Any one up for it? Patient?

Was someone set to play the Frisians? Or, should we let the AI have it since they will be down to one city soon? Or, do we want to let the game sit for a week?

I think La Fayette volunteered to sub for Frisia.

I think La Fayette volunteered to sub for Frisia.

Perfectly true !
But arthedain should be back within 5 days.
The suspense wouldn't be unbearable :)

Maybe you could take a look to see if his turn is complicated. It sounds like Arthedain would be happy for you to play the turn.

It sounds like Arthedain would be happy for you to play the turn.
It sounds like Peaster is a clever diplomat :)
I'll play the Frisian turn tomorrow.

Such an awful lot of units to move! :p

It sounds like Peaster is a clever diplomat :)


I wish this were true, but you can see right thru my diplomacy! :mischief: Anyway, thanks for playing.

I still have to check city production and such, but 13 cities changed hands this round.

Save to come tomorrow.

Monks arrive in England to chronicle recent events.
Christian Monks settle in Ireland.
A young warrior emerges, claiming to be the true defender and rightful king of Friesland.

The new Anglo-Saxon Monk is ransomed by a ship recalled from other duties.

After a shift of cargos at sea a Drakkar kills the new Frisian Heir along the coast. The city of Cologne is retaken and the Horsemen who tried to hide in the Mountains is no more.

The Frankish cities of Chartres and Arras are brought under Norse control.

A raid into German lands turns into an invasion as nine cities are taken from their control. The final city in our advance contained the treasonous Danish King. He was shown the light.

From a lurker's viewpoint, it looks like the good Duke is steamrolling through everyone.
True?

The only place that is somewhat 'steamrolling' is with the Germans. The ruins they built to get to me are being used against them. :)

Everywhere else it is the slow crawl that was expected to get to the inland cities.

Duke - I am curious how you got your units into my rune system so soon. I pillaged a few of them over the last two turns, hoping to slow you down. We can discuss this after the game if you prefer, but I don't think revealing this is going to matter too much.

I used ships (as your Raider in the fort will show you), plus you aren't the only one with Settlers/Monks. ;)

Serutan, the Vikings are slicing through the Christians. But they have Marines, Nukes and Airplanes, so...;)

Danes 820 AD

King Sven is dead! Long live king Sven!

Mourning the loss of their deceitful king, Danish nobles elected the king's Norse cousin Sven as his successor to the Danish throne. Travelling from Norway, king Sven reached the land of the Danes and at once prepared to arrange for the land's defences. Now with Danevirke fallen, he ordered Danish chiefs to take full advantage of their finest weapons, their ships. Any approaching army will swiftly be crushed by the Danish fleet, able to strike anywhere, anytime, along Danish and Saxon coasts.

Danish Raiders returning by the king's orders, from successful raids in England, came past Bremen, and decide to take a look at the Saxon capital. Destroying a fleet of harbouring Drakkars of apparent Danish fabric, for the good of their own safety, they found an anchoring spot just off the city and outside the reach of enemy emissaries.

Another Danish fleet took up a similar position, anchoring just off Hamburg.

In the far east, the city of Chernihiv swore allegiance to the new king Sven.

---
During a gift exchange between the Norse and Danish player, a civ2 'breakthrough' in science led to that the Danes received the unresearchable tech "Unique", which is only used for special units that are in the civiliopedia, not for any buildable units. The Danes found themselves able to build kings, heirs, warlords and other unique units. It's a comparatively easy loop hole to fix, giving all these units a obsolescence tech. This attached rules file fixes this, and exchanges the former file.

The Germans have agreed to await a response from Frisia...

Are discussions still taking place?

Message from Peaster, who is somewhat net crippled right now:

Duke,

We were hit by Hurricane Katrina a few days ago, which makes it hard to post anything for a while. Possibly unrelated to that - I have not been able to open the Hammer thread from my office today.

Anyway, the Allies have decided to quit. We were just waiting for Arthedain to agree to it. Since I am net-crippled, I have asked the other guys to post something in the thread about it. I hope there will be some analysis of what happened, but I might not be able to join in for a while.

Best,
Peaster

Hey again guys! Sorry for not writing sooner. I did agree to quit this game though, via e-mail. Anyways, I'm up for a new PBEM if people are interested. It might also be a different scenario if you guys would like that. Suggestions are welcome. I also would like to congratulate the winners, the vikings. If I'm not mistaken though, Morten signed peace with us, so that makes DoM the last man standing.

OK, the agony of the Franks is over at last! ;)

I'm certainly up for a new scenario...but if it is new to me, I would like a week or two to get used to it first.

OK, thanx for playing everyone :) It was fun and very instructive! I will take all the events of the game, and the comments made along the way, into careful consideration when making the next update of the scenario.

I'm also up for a new game! Not sure which one, although my own Spanish Armada scen springs to mind (which would be a heavily alliance-kind of game, with one sole objective : conquer/protect England). It could also be nice to play a good scen that I know nothing at all about whatsoever! Any good ideas?

Morten, if I am remembering the right Armada scenario, I did enjoy playing it. My only criticism (shared with those scenarios of my own like Colonies IV or Seize the Crown) is that it takes a while to get moving. It starts many years prior to the Armada, if I remember...

I could suggest a game like Bonaparte II (my own, yes ;) ) which gets you into the action pretty quickly, and is balanced between the players.

Brown Man's Burden has the same advantages, and whilst I like it a bit less - 'cos it ain't mine - it is a good PBEM.

As for the Armada, did you take any of my feedback into account?

1) Love the graphics! Except maybe the diplomatic dialog background, which is very hard to read anything against. The rats/pollution and Brothel improvement amused me particularly...;)

2) Suggestion: maybe rename the Tower of London wonder to "Elizabeth's Diplomacy" or something similar. It was mainly the hope of marrying her - and thus easing painlessly onto the thone of England - that kept the Catholic Princes of Europe dancing around her, rather than leading their armies onto the English beaches. Certainly more so than the presence of the little white-walled armoury/prison on the banks of the Thames....

3) The graphics (a major strongpoint of yours anyway) are very good. Maybe a little violently-coloured for my taste on first sight, I soon got used to them and I like the part-period, part-boardgame feel they give. Really nice work!

4) When an assasin is "expelled", why not "unmask" him. The ambassador would then apologise, rather than protest his explusion...

5) The wine resource should perhaps generate more trade or something. Same with the sheep.

6) The defensive infantry units should perhaps include Pikemen. By 1560 the Spanish Tercio was the dominant military formation. If you want to keep Musketeers, better rename them Matchlocks, although the difference in the weapon from an Arquebus was marginal.

Finally, do you ever play online games (any of you?). I could host, and then four or five of us could play a much wider variety of games, quickly. Most of us are on European time, I think...You'd need broadband, really...

In this game I was really starting to have issues with unhappiness from all the cities. I also saw no way for me to be able to take out a decent defender behind city walls with the units I had available.

By a "decent defender", do you mean the 2-3 Royal Guard that each Christian civ starts with?

What other "decent defenders" do they have?

Royal Guards, or Kings, even Thegns would be a problem.

But, that's all part of how the game is suppose to be. Once the Vikings try to start pushing inland is where they are suppose to start having a much harder time with it. The Christians needed to protect key points and just write off the rest. They can't hope to protect everything. I was surprised at how many city improvements were still in cities when I took them. I expected the cities to have been stripped.

The advice about giving up coastal cities + patience is not very convincing from this game. If the Vikings take a big enough chunk of land (eg France) then the game is over. With a few Hammers, they can virtually destroy any civ they choose (eg Germany). Also, if a major Christian power joins the Vikings, the game is over. It seemed impossible for a Christian King to
exert any control over this game.

I'd like to hear more from the Viking players about whether the scenario is balanced. AFAIK the Norse cracked 4-5 civs without losing a battle (except for the one-turn German counterattack). Is that correct ? If so, was that from luck/skill/units/other ? The Danes seemed to lose a little more often, but it is hard to tell.

Would the players be willing to share passwords now that the game is over, so the other players can see what happened ? I would go first, except that I didn't use a password.

My password was "carolingian".

Yes but, Duke, the Christians have only one King (IF they get one crowned, I never did) and they can build no more Thegns or Royal Guard. And even they are damn all use against a nuke.

And abandoning the coastal cities entirely, and stripping them of improvements is neither historically accurate nor very satisfying to play. It will be months of realtime (in a PBEM) before you can realistically counterattack...

The Vikings have to play with a double edged sword. On one hand they can build Hammers, but on the other if they take enough cities they lose that ability. If Morten hadn't built the Wonder for Hammers there wouldn't have been any during the game since shortly after that both Vikings had to accept christianity and expire the Hammer tech.

As for stripping the cities:
I think if anyone tries to play the game and not be stripping their cities for gold they will lose. I was stripping my cities of improvements almost every turn just to get more gold to RB what I needed. I also consider disbanding Monks to be be part of the 'stripping' process. Gold was the only thing that let the Norse do what they did how they did it. 80% of that gold came from Monks.

As for if this game is balanced, no. I think the changes that were suggested before of not giving the Vikings Heirs (and making the Christian ones NONE units) and removing the internal Barbs for thr Chritians could balance it as it seems it was meant to be. The other thing I thought would help the Christians is if Missionaries could see out two squares, thus letting be of more use and be able to avoid Barbs easier.

The things that tipped this game so far to one side was the poor playing by the Franks and Scots (sorry John). The Scots should, and can, delay the Norse quite a bit to give more time to the other players. The Franks were the victims of trying to protect too much with too little. Moving a badly needed Royal Guard out to try and cover a couple fringe cities cost them everything. If that unit had stayed in the city the Vikings would still be trying to take it out these many turns later.

I'm not saying they have to abondon every coastal city, but they need to pick specific ones to protect and focus on them. They simply don't have the resources to protect them all.

The main benefit the Norse had was units, lots of them ships. I planned from the beginning to only have certain ships attack while others were to act as transports. I set up shipchains early on and had most of my Norse units flowing down to the Franks from the beginning. I had planned on a couple minor attacks on the Scots just to keep them from mounting any counter-attack/ making it look like I was focusing on them and then bypassing them. My target from the first turn was the Franks. I had studied them and knew where thier potential weaknesses were in anticipation of playing them.

My ships were moving troops forward every turn. When I realized that the Scots were simply sitting in their cities I figured a little more effort could break them early on. This would then allow me to not have to leave troops behind to cover that flank.

The thing that paniced me the most was that I was able to take the Franks capital but I had no troops there. That's why I went the bribe route even though I would have preferred to use the gold elsewhere. My decision to finish off the Scots worried me at that point since it disrupted my ship chain and pulled units out of the pipeline. It almost cost me all of the Frankish cities when the Germans flowed in. Luckily my anal retentive practicies gave me a warning they were coming and I was able to get a couple units in their way to slow them down. It bought me a couple turns and saved everything.

The Germans were a victim of their own doing since they didn't have any 'stop gaps' in their ruins lines. With 19 Monks available I think I would have pillaged at least one square of ruins behind my current advance just so the Norse couldn't have pushed all the way down them like they did.

Latest news!

"The Frankish leader had a secret alliance with the Norse leader.
He received 2000g per city given to the Norse.
Now retired on the Riviera, he spends his gold playing poker with high members of the Russian Mafia."

(watch out!: this post is not supposed to be more serious than the vast majority of the latest news we watch on TV or read in the newspapers).

Duke - Thanks for the overview. I figured that gold was a big part of it, and that when one Christian civ cracks, the others are in trouble too. That's one reason I tried so hard to help France. Actually, I thought the game was over several turns ago, well before you got into the German runes, so I don't have any regrets about building them. IIRC, the 3 nukes managed to take out 4 of my super-units (basically, all of them), so IMO that's when it was all over - at least for Germany.

I am still curious to see more details of the attack, though. I have almost no idea how many giants, kings, boats, etc you had at various places and times (after 793AD, of course). So, it's hard to decide for myself whether a Viking victory was inevitable or not. Would you mind sharing your password?

I think in this game a Viking victory was inevitable, but not soon forthcoming. I had nothing that could crack well defended cities, so I could have beat everyone down, but not finished them off. After that it would have just been a matter of time before taking them out fully.

Also, with all the activity that the Danes had I could have probably taken them out as well. But, being the good Ally that I am I gave them control of troops that could have been used to instead attack them.

Here are my last 5 turns with the password removed. The 808 save is where the biggest surprise happened and I saw German units pushing towards Rheims. Although, I won't share the excel file I used to track my battle plans and try to keep track of everything that was happening in the game. ;)

BTW, the use of the Hammers was discussed very heavily between the Viking players. I ultimately decided to use them where I thought they would kill the most monks and hopefully take some defenders with them. I'm happy to hear they accomplished more than I had hoped. :)

Morten, if I am remembering the right Armada scenario, I did enjoy playing it. My only criticism (shared with those scenarios of my own like Colonies IV or Seize the Crown) is that it takes a while to get moving. It starts many years prior to the Armada, if I remember...
Yes, although I included a lot of incentive to go pirating and such. The scenario opens with the Spanish conquests in the Netherlands, and I could imagine there would be a lot of sneaky diplomacy going on before the Armada is ready to sail.

As for the Armada, did you take any of my feedback into account?
Yes, I included several of your suggestions :) I started working on a v1.5 version with a new concept of fireships, as well including 'hero' units such as Drake and Farnese, the Duke of Parma etc. But I didn't get around to finishing it. The 1.4 version plays well, I think - I played it several times mp, but just with 2 players.

I could suggest a game like Bonaparte II (my own, yes ;) ) which gets you into the action pretty quickly, and is balanced between the players.

Brown Man's Burden has the same advantages, and whilst I like it a bit less - 'cos it ain't mine - it is a good PBEM.
I never played Bonaparte - will certainly try it out! :) - Sounds like fun! It would be fun to play an industrial age scenario, especially one I haven't played before. I prefer that to BMB.

Finally, do you ever play online games (any of you?). I could host, and then four or five of us could play a much wider variety of games, quickly. Most of us are on European time, I think...You'd need broadband, really...
Yes sure! I would probably have to port forward or something though, as I am behind a router. I used to play mp games a lot on my old computer, but haven't yet tried it out with my new setup. I will see if I can it working. Any tips?

(By any chance, anyone of you who knows why Civ doesn't play sounds from the default sound folder, when playing scens on XP?)

I must own up I visited this thread, though sparsely.

Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
the excel file I used to track my battle plans and try to keep track of everything that was happening in the game.
:) Nice to hear there is more PBEM players that take the game seriously.

Concerning the password disclosure / looking at the saves: IMHO players should be always enabled to analyze the game turn by turn (by revealing all passwords or by other means ;) ), not only because of a post-game study but also because of a 'fear from cheating' that I noticed at some PBEMers. A cheater (for me a hypothetic person, :) I don't believe there is anyone) would hardly dare to cheat if he expected the game would be studied.

Obviously I didn't cheat considering the poor results of my armies. I must say though, that i don't have any of the files left, since my old computer crashed, and I started a temporary hammer map on my sisters computer. :(
I would give my password away, but dumb me used a password that I use in other PBEMS and to other stuffs. :rolleyes:

I vote for Bonaparte 2.

... and my "Hammer" game is not passworded.

Well, my civ is probably not password protected anymore anyways since I didn't play the last turn(s).

I just spent an hour or so looking over some saves from this game.

1) The game was over by 811AD (probably earlier - but I didn't go further back than that). By then, the Norse had 54 super-units: 2 Kings, 24 Draks, 12VC, 5REs and 11 Giants ! (plus 3 Hammers due next turn, 22VR and many other minor units). I assume Germany was the strongest allied civ, but we had only 4 supers (+4 RGs). I doubt even inland cities were safe against such an army.

I guess the Giants came from huts, but I haven't tried to check how many huts were popped, or what popped them.

2) The Vikings reported dropping 3 nukes on Germany in 814AD. They actually dropped 4 (but who's counting?). The Oldenburg nuke (Norse) and the Hamburg one (Danish) were fairly close together.

3) The Norse only lost 1 unit the whole game (a VR), except for the 4 units the Germans killed in their counterattack in France.

4) I studied the Danes less carefully, but I guess they were a distant second in terms of power. They lost roughly a dozen units, and about half of those were on the Danish-German border.

5) By 814AD, the Norse had fairly complete knowledge of the German map. Maybe this was gained from a treacherous ally ? or from using Hammers as scouts ?

@Arthedain: I guess if you want your old saves, they are all posted here in this thread. If not, maybe Patient or Duke still have copies.

I only had 10 Giants when the game ended so I couldn't have had 11 by 811AD. Early on I was popping huts at the rate of about 5-7 a turn. Most came from villages, the rest I bought. If I got my count right I visited every village on the upper half of the map (except one or two that were about to be visited) from the left side of the board to about 85% to the right.

The main problem I had is that all but two of my Giants were way the hell away in the rear. There was no way for them to be of any use but to try and explore, which was all but useless at this point in the game. Most of the rest of my army was the pretty much the same way. Out of the 111 units the game states me as having at the end only about 20 of them were land units that were actually close enough for actual use against anyone. Even after 4 solid turns of pushing every available unit into the Franks lands I only had 2 Kings, 1 Giant, 2 VC, 2 Raiders, and 2 Royal Guards to face the Germans. I even had to bribe a barb spearmen just to give one of my defensive points a second unit to avoid being bribed. The nine cities I took away from the Germans was the result of only 3 combats. As I took an empty city it would empty another city around it of its garrison. I think the Germans were having unit support issues of some sort. Without that the nine lost cities would have only been about 3 or 4.

I only reported 3 Hammers so that it may help the Danes appear stronger than they were. :) I was hoping the Danes would have used their Hammer against the Frisians at Dorestad and then used that city as an entry point onto the German ruins and, hopefully, their less defended cities. We couldn't work out the logistics of it because of the possibility of German counter-attacks. And, yes every one of my Hammers scouted as much land as possible before being used. I can't tell you how much 'fun' it was to try and count out 99 squares only to miss where you were and have to start over. Or finding the path that you were trying for was 100 squares and having to start over.

That one loss still irritates me. If I'm in a power situation I like to choose my battles. If I don't like the odds of a fight I wait until I do like the odds. The Scottish city of Dunkeld is a prime example. I had 2 Raiders right next to the city that, together, probably could have killed the Thegn in the city. But, instead of losing a Raider in the process I waited a couple turns until I could get a Chief up there to lead the attack. I'm somewhat of a 'perfectionist player'. I like to pick my battles and fight them on my terms whenever possible.

Morten, La Fayette...

I am glad you fancy a Bonaparte II game (ver III is in the works at the moment). Over at Evolution games we have a game ready to start, but need one or two more players...Would you be interested? I can vouch for both other players as good, and honourable.

The thread is at: http://www.evo-games.net/Home/viewtopic.php?t=263&start=435&sid=d72a3226ea3b6c0c9e6395a95bff1c1f

If you fancy it, let me know here, there, or by email. I hear no other voices, and the Evolution game would really be best with only 5 players (for speed reasons), b ut if the rest of you want to get involved in such a game, please let me know...

BTW, on the first page of that thread is the zipped scenario, so you can have a look at my latest changes (there aren't many)....

I think I'll pass this one, as it seems you're set to go. I just downloaded the scenario and will probably need some time to familiarize myself with it beforehand.

OK. La Fayette, are you in? We still need one more player....

I said yes.
Count me in if there's room for me.

...I couldn't have had 11 by 811AD.

My mistake - you had 9 giants. I noticed that most of them were pretty far north. But you had many fast boats, so you had the option of gradually bringing them south, if necessary. Or using them on C.Swords first. AFAIK the Christians only had 2 or 3 giants, with few prospects for getting more.



That one loss still irritates me. If I'm in a power situation I like to choose my battles. If I don't like the odds of a fight I wait until I do like the odds. The Scottish city of Dunkeld is a prime example. I had 2 Raiders right next to the city that, together, probably could have killed the Thegn in the city. But, instead of losing a Raider in the process I waited a couple turns until I could get a Chief up there to lead the attack. I'm somewhat of a 'perfectionist player'. I like to pick my battles and fight them on my terms whenever possible.

This part is unclear to me. I don't see how you can avoid losses when attacking. In your example, how did you know there was a Thegn in Dunkeld? I suppose an RE can investigate, but then you lose the RE.

@Patient - I cannot commit to another PBEM until my internet connection is back to normal. But if you are still looking for someone in 1-2 weeks, I'll check it out.

My mistake - you had 9 giants. I noticed that most of them were pretty far north. But you had many fast boats, so you had the option of gradually bringing them south, if necessary. Or using them on C.Swords first. AFAIK the Christians only had 2 or 3 giants, with few prospects for getting more.

I had many boats, but they had already been used to transport troops to the front. I had started to build Cogs for pulling a new wave of units forward but even building the ships were many turns off.

This part is unclear to me. I don't see how you can avoid losses when attacking. In your example, how did you know there was a Thegn in Dunkeld? I suppose an RE can investigate, but then you lose the RE.
It's what the city started with. My early attacks were able to be planned with fairly accurate parameters. I think I had 2 surprises in all of my attacks. One was the Anglo-Saxon King in the city when being attacked by my Giant. The other was with the Scots. They had a Giant in their city that I had no idea was there. However, since a nearby city started with a Thegn the possibilty existed that the Thegn was in that city on defensive terrain, so the city was intially skipped in my attack plans until a stronger unit could be brought up to handle the possibility of a Thegn being in the city. It turned out being a bit stronger than had been expected but the attacking unit was enough to handle it.

I actually did little unplanned attacks early on. There just wasn't much out there for the Christians to change around. I bought most of the Franks out early on so combat choices didn't matter much there. The counter attacks against the Germans were unknown so my most powerful units were used in those attacks, but, as you pointed out the Hammers seemed to have killed most of your best units, so they only faced lesser units. After checking what they were I was rather surprised to see so many 'super units'. A Giant, 2 Warlords, 4 Royal Guards, 2 Kings, a little more than the 4 that was previously stated. Actually, it's a better fighting force than I was able to muster. For all the damage the Germans did their losses are remarkably light for charging into the unknown against 'superior' troops. Makes me think the game wasn't as lop-sided as many may have intially thought.

@Peaster,

OK, I think we will be starting this coming Sunday, but - depending on the Civ you take - you might not be up until next Friday....Would you still be interested? We don't mind waiting a day or two for your first turn....

@Duke: Thanks - I think I understand what happened in the game now. Congrats to the Vikings ! Praise also to the Christians for their heroic, but doomed efforts.

German superunits (after Norse 811AD, I think): 1King, 1Giant, 2 WL. Also, 4RG's and 19 monks. IIRC had 2-3 different Kings, but can't remember if/when their lives overlapped. I was using my Giant to attack nearby C.Swords, and my monks to build rune-roads those Swords. I used RE's to bribe barb cities preferably with WL's.

German superunits (after Danish 814AD and the 4 Hammers): 1King. Also, 1RG and 10 monks. To attack Hedeby, I exposed most of these monks to attack, and lost 8 of 10, but IMO the game was already over. I thought the only slim chance to fight the Norse was to bring Sven into our alliance at the point of a sword.

Germany was able to fight back with so few units only because of the runes. If Morten forbids them in future games, Germany will probably have to play defensively like the other Christian Kings.

@Patient: I hope my computer problems will be resolved within a few days, and then I can take a look at your scen. If I do join, can you promise me a civ with some chances to win ? (My civ in the Apolyton PBEM is as hopeless as a Christian King, and I'd like a change :))

Patient: I tried to register at evo, but it demands a "control image". What the H*** is that?

@Peaster: I have absolutely no idea....It never asked me for that - I will ask one of the Admins. La Fayette, did you have a similar issue? I know you registered OK....Have another go, and let me know the exact message you get..

If you join, you would probably get the British nation to play. IMO they are one of the best (the other being France) but they do need certain "techniques" to play well. I would be happy to be your advisor on that, as I would be playing Prussia and Austria, and would very likely be your ally anyway.

Nothing major or weird, but the pros and cons of a close Channel blockade against France, for example.....I.e. If you choose to do it, how to do it properly.

If you want to swap nations with me, I would be happy to do that (I love playing the British) but the others might protest, as they hate trying to defeat Britain against me...;)

I have had no problem at all registering ( but I happen to have that kind of problems quite often, and I'm somewhat happy that this can occur to others now and then).

Thread started at http://www.evo-games.net/Home/viewtopic.php?p=23927

No rush, guys, just familiarise yourself with the scenario (read the notes!) before next week....

FYI - Apparently, the "control image" is a code, like 8KNH230, that is supposed to be displayed for you when you register. Then you just type it in. For some reason (probably related to my computer problems) the code was not visible when I tried to register the first time, but now I am in. Tx.

Patient: I'll be happy to play the Brits, and will accept any advice you have to offer. I guess we should switch to email at this point.

Sure. I think I still have your email from this Hammer game, but it is embedded in my Outlook Express, which I cannot connect with any longer. I will dig it out, copy it to a text file, and use web mail in my backup O/S to contact you. Hopefully by tonight...

OK, I have got your mail, and replied...

Heh! Now my computer refuses to display email messages. I will try on another machine later today. If you do not hear from me in 24 hours, could you also send your answer by PM ?

[Peaster pauses for fond memories of pens and paper]

But how long would it take to post and deliver floppy disks with our turns... ;)