This poll is plain and simple: What do we want to gain from Philosophy, should we research it first?


Map Making
Literature
Other


Please refer to the numbers for the poll.

Note: Other includes... well, everything else. Please specifiy what you mean by Other in the thread.
Also: CoL is in other as I did not see that much support for it in the threads.

So, this would seem to indicate that Conquests includes a return of the free tech from getting philosophy bonus. Or have I stumbled into the Civ II demogame forums by mistake? :confused:

I'd say map making is a nice pay-off. With it we could keep better track of our conquests in India. :D

I have to say other. As I said in the discussion thread, what we pick should be the most expensive monopoly available at the time.

I voted other. I agree that we should select the most expensive monopoly tech available.

I think we need to make a bee-line straight for the GL, so we should pick literature.

Map-Making:

Lighthouse and Galleys

Let's exploit our seafaring trait to the maximum. Map making all of the way!

So, this would seem to indicate that Conquests includes a return of the free tech from getting philosophy bonus. Or have I stumbled into the Civ II demogame forums by mistake?
Nope, you're in the Civ III demogame forum. They brought back the philosophy free tech in conquests.

Great Library will be a must on this difficulty level.

We have a tie right now...this could be interesting.....

- TP

I just had to break the tie. Map making is not a necessity at the moment.

I say we start this game off on the right foot...the civilized foot! Go for Literature.

Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

But, building the Great Library is almost a necessity for out nation. Getting Literature will help ensure that we get it.

I see the GL as a mill-stone around our neck. It is a worthless wonder.

Consider Its' benefits.

1. It gives us every tech known by at least two other nations (that we know) until we have learned Education.

2. It gives 3cpt and eventually 6cpt.

Now consider the penalties.

1. It costs 300 shields to build.

2. It requires the knowledge of an optional tech.

Now you can discuss the ramifications of the contrasting pro's and con's.

1. Between building the GL and learning Education (when it expires) what will we gain. We have two choices. First we can turn research down or off and accumulate gold. This will of course condemn us to not taking a tech lead since 2 civs will already know any tech we get. Since we may not know all the civs, it is likely that there will be civs out there that are even more advanced, on another continent maybe with more civs and better terrain. Thus we can never get a monopoly tech and thus buying "stuff" like maps and resources will take up some of the extra gold we make. Since the upgrade multiplier is 3 for C3C we will not be able to make as many upgrades anyway as we would with "classic" Civ. C3C has a much lower resource density. If we save gold for upgrades and find ourselves without iron or horses then we end up with dozens of warriors about to jump into Republic and everything is a mess. Second, we can try to research at an accelerated rate to get a monopoly tech, or a tech lead for military advantage, in which case the GL will provide no benefit, except for a few initially. Thus we will be 300 shields shy of where we should be, which is 10 horses or swords and enough to take out a neighbour on their own.

2. What are our chances of getting it? Well, right now we have one city. The next city will be a settler factory, and the third city is also potentially a settler factory type city too. That means we need to wait until our fourth before we can begin to build it. Therefore it is not likely that we can complete it before Lit is known by other civs, and therefore with cascades from the Pyramids in particular our chances look slim to none and we end up with an expensive library since we will not be able to cascade the HG or GW ourselves. In trying to build it of course, we cannot reduce the towns population and it will max out. This means higher slider settings just to support 1 town. If the town is not on a river then the pop will max out at 6 and we waste food.

3. Just to finish with the GL. A useful tactic is to acquire the GL to catch up in tech without learning Education - gift the city to the AI and then avoid learning Education for a while (until MT usually) and then capture the city back to catch up in tech. We cannot do this here since we are proposing to handbuild it in our core, and we cannot tolerate a core city being owned by a rival.

So, not only is the GL risky, but is is actually detrimental to our chances of winning the game. It would be like tatooing "I love Britney Spears" across your forehead. Might seem a good idea after a few beers at the Karaoke bar, but you would spend the rest of your life regretting it.

4. Lit is an optional tech. We don't absolutely have to have it. We may choose to have a republic at some time sure. At the moment we have one lux. :p With no other luxes and to support republic we would need a slider hike forever, or size 3 towns.

5. Libraries. When will we need libraries. In despotism? Nah.. I don't think so. Therefore we need to prepare for becoming a republic first, before we start building libraries.

6. So from lit we end up with a monopoly tech. Wow. Congrats team.


Mapmaking is similarly foolish right now. This is not an archipelago. The starting landmass is apparently big enough for 3 civs. So it's continents or pangea. If its continents we will probably need suicide galleys for contact or wait for NAvigation/magnetism. So why mapmaking? We can already sail the seas. You don't think we can trade maps at this point do you. :nono: Printing Press is required for that.
You want to sail the high seas with settlers to the corners of the map to plant settlers in every godforsaken nook and cranny? Puh-leeeese!

You want us to build the lighthouse maybe? Obsolete with our UU of course, already have extra water movement of course, only site that could build it will be about number 6 on the city list of course and we don't even know what our landform is yet.

So what does currency give? It gives markets which compliment our commercial trait. It gives us the most expensive monopoly tech we can get. It gives us a tech that the AI neglect. It puts us a step nearer the MA. It prevents the wonder happy citizenry from commiting Hari Kiri (sp?) in the AA.

Vote currency. Vote to win the game. :)

Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

The AI also values Literature VERY highly.

If we will to build the Great Library, then go for Literature. The plan then would be in my view to switch off research after researching maybe 1/2 critical techs, then let the money fund our bloodthirsty wars with India and whoever else we find. I've done this before and is a lot of fun. This is the simplest way to not fall behind in research. By the time Education is approaching, we would have built libraries in all candidate cities so we don't take too great a hit scientifically. I strongly disagree that the GL is a waste of time, though you have to play at a higher level to make any significant use of it. Of course if we don't build the GL, Literature can wait and we're better off with Map Making.
This of course is a massive decision to make (nearly always rejected it appears to me) so needs serious consideration.
One final point on the GL/megawar option is that you can expect a few great leaders to emerge, helping in wonder building etc.

Can a moderator pleace change my vote from Literature to Other. I would like us to obtain the highest value Monopoly tech.

1 subtracted from Lit; 1 added to Other - Rik

Gregski,
The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.

The traditional (and in my eyes best way) to do the Philo-thing is to get Code of Laws from it and start Republic ASAP.

BTW CT: Nonsense; Literature is not regarded highly by the AI. Not at all.

Gregski,
The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.

Ah well, they are still rather useful nonetheless. BTW does this apply to small wonders?

Just to clear up a few issues:
Map trading requires navigation.
Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either.

Take care if we're going to republic. One free unit per town, two gold per unit after that.

I'd like to reiterate going for map making. Let us exploit our seafaring trait to the max!

The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.

So, what can they be used for? :confused:

Do we try to build the great library every demogame? I hate the great library. If it ever gets built we should burn it to the ground. Everyone should go back and re-read mad-bax's post. It explains very clearly why we do not need the great library.

As for other, have you guys ever heard of Marx? The only point behind getting the most expensive free tech we could monopolize would be to turn around and sell it for profit. Do we really want to do that? Who knows right now! Perhaps doing so would be a good idea if we bartered for techs to bring us to parity with other civs. If on the other hand we could only sell for gold (because we were already advanced) then wouldn't maintaining the tech lead be worth much more than a few shiny yellow coins? It seems to me this poll is a bit premature. We should go back to the drawing board on this one...

BTW, I'm sticking with map making for now. I don't have Conquests so I'm not sure but can it really be that map making bestows no benefits upon a seafaring nation? Sid wouldn't do that, would he?

Hi Donsig,
I don't own C3C either, so I'm not 100% sure on all this.

Military Great Leaders can be used to:
1. Build an Army
2. Rush any improvement except Great Wonders.

There is also the concept of Scientific Great Leaders. These can be used to rush Great Wonders. The chance that you get one is 2-4% each time you are the first civ to research a tech. Pretty rare.

Just to clear up a few issues:
Map trading requires navigation. correct
Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either. Incorrect; small Wonders can be rushed.
Take care if we're going to republic. One free unit per town, two gold per unit after that.correct

I'd like to reiterate going for map making. Let us exploit our seafaring trait to the max!Our seafaring trait gives our galeys +1 movement. Can be useful. But not my preferred path.

I also hate the great Library; It prevents people from doing things right as TGL compensates a lot of bad play. I only build it when I absolutely need it. And then only if capturing is not an option.

I have usually found Literature to have great value to the AI, and in fact, I suspect it would be the answer for the monopoly pick as well. I don't think the great library is necessary for us to build, but the AI usually pays me quite well to get the chance to build it. The key is to horde the tech until several opponents are met, then sell it to all in one turn, especially if they are all racing with the pyramids, oracle, etc...

Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either.

MGL's can definitely rush small wonders. they can't rush great wonders or an army, IIRC.

Thanks for correcting me. Like I implied, I wasn't too sure.

MGL's can definitely rush small wonders. they can't rush great wonders or an army, IIRC.

MGL's can rush small wonders, form armies, or rush any improvement.

SGL's can rush great wonders or start an age of science (which seems buggy, or at least doesn't have very much effect most of the time).

I disagree with mad-bax that the GL is worthless. He says: First we can turn research down or off and accumulate gold. This will of course condemn us to not taking a tech lead since 2 civs will already know any tech we get. Since we may not know all the civs, it is likely that there will be civs out there that are even more advanced, on another continent maybe with more civs and better terrain. Thus we can never get a monopoly tech and thus buying "stuff" like maps and resources will take up some of the extra gold we make.Right now we're in this position. We're behind in the tech race (the Indians know a tech we don't) and likely to stay that way for a while. With the GL, we don't fall further behind.Second, we can try to research at an accelerated rate to get a monopoly tech, or a tech lead for military advantage, in which case the GL will provide no benefit, except for a few initially. Thus we will be 300 shields shy of where we should be, which is 10 horses or swords and enough to take out a neighbour on their own.I fail to see how having the GL keeps us from having accelerated research. If we have research at, let's say, 40%, we'll be able to research techs before the AI AND not have to duplicate research other civs have done.

If we have research at, let's say, 40%, we'll be able to research techs before the AI AND not have to duplicate research other civs have done.
What's the point of having the Great Library if we're going to research?

We could go after techs the AI doesn't research as often, and let the GL get the techs that the AIs research frequently anyway. I do it a lot(build the GL AND research simultaneously).

Still, I think Map Making is what we should go for. If it is continents, then that does mean Suicide Galleys - but keep in mind what the lighthouse would give us: +1 movement and access to sea tiles -- which basically shaves several turns off of any potential SG route. To restate that in a different way: Sea tile access means we can start closer, and +1 movement means we move faster.

So really which one we should go for depends almost entirely on the landmass: GL would be most effective on a Pangaea, and GL most effective on Continents. My vote is "Abstain" with the caveat that we should wait before deciding--I'd agree with either Map Making or Literature, but we don't have enough information at this time.

Voted Map Making, as it's really the most beneficial tech we can chose should we manage to pull off the Philo gambit. Remember, we're seafaring, so our gallies would get 4 movement, plus a reduced chance of sinking in water. Very useful for extensive exploration, in my opinion.

GL would be most effective on a Pangaea, and GL most effective on Continents.
Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents? ;)

What's the point of having the Great Library if we're going to research?
Having the GL means that we don't have to research certain techs, leaving us free to research other techs. The GL is a means of getting techs without trading for them from other civs or researching them ourselves.

Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents? ;)
:lol: Maybe we should call the Great Library; GLib, and the Great Lighthouse; GLig, to shop any cofusion.

I voted for Map Making as the tech that we should get if we get Philosophy first. It makes more sense to go for because of the advantages it gives to any Civilization. One of the best things is that we get a ship that can now transport troops and it has an extra mvnt compared to the curragh. There is one thing that is a worry about this tech is that if we go for the GLig as a result of this tech, we will be getting a very early GA, which is not the best thing to happen.

woah.
did this poll just swing five points overnight?

Also- there are only a few hours left. Vote'em if you've got'em.

SaaM

I thought GL was Great Leader! :confused:

GL = Great Leader, Great Lighthouse, Great Library

Depends on the context. ;) It's nice if people say the full word out the first time, so from then on we know what they're talking about (especially since it involves the techs with the two Great Library/Lighthouse wonders).

The four move galleys could also aid settlement. Our settles could board and be at a spot within turns, not nine or ten.

The four move galleys could also aid settlement. Our settles could board and be at a spot within turns, not nine or ten.

4 move galleys are good for war. More movement points than a foot unit on road. Take rivers into account and the worker turns required to build a land based supply line and we finally have a decent argument for map making. :)

Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents? ;)


Other way around.

And I didn't even bring up the advantages of the Lighthouse with expansion and war, but those are 2 more good points to add towards it. I still think the Library should be considered in the event that we ARE on Pangaea, however. (In the case of either landform, though, those fast galleys mean faster contact, and in turn more techs and brokering involved.)

Other way around.
The " ;) " denoted that I knew what you were talking about, just the overuse of GL was funny.

It's a little bit late to be doing this, but for the record this poll would get a Good rating for polling standards. There was no link to the related discussion, which would have given it an Excellent rating.

Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

Arrogant enough to quote myself, meek enough to change my mind. (yeah right ;) )

I would go for literature now that 100K looks likely. I believe that libraries are the most important cultural build fo this VC. If there is a run-off I will vote literature.

There should be no run off here, I think Map Making got strong support, and Culture is very focussed on getting the Lighthouse for our overseas expansion.