Civ: Hittites
Map: Middle East
Difficulty: Emperor

Opponents:
Egypt
Greece
Babylon
Persia
Arabia
Sumeria
Byzantines

Must win by conquest.

Roster:
MeteorPunch
Hawklord
Mad-Bax
Lullaby

I would personally like to go last. We begin close to the Byzantines, and I'd prefer some pros start off. :salute:

Starting Pic:

I'd be in. But I'm neither experienced at Emperor level nor at the ancient world scenario.

I'd be in. But I'm neither experienced at Emperor level nor at the ancient world scenario.

This is based on a custom map, not the Conquest scenario - they are very similar though :p . I'll add you to the roster.

Looks like a pretty good start. I'll give it a go too.

Looks like a pretty good start. I'll give it a go too.

Cool. We need 1-2 more. We can start with 1 more but there's still 5 max. I'm going last. If anyone wants to go first please request.

Is the starting player going for 20 turns and the rest 10 as per usual. Cos' nothing usually happens in the first 10 turns anyway? I'll don't mind starting, unless anyone is adamant that they the privelage.
p.s. I have won at Emperor level, it's the ones after that I find more difficult. You need to get a good start at emperor and keep an eye on the trading if your going to keep up.

Is the starting player going for 20 turns and the rest 10 as per usual. Cos' nothing usually happens in the first 10 turns anyway? I'll don't mind starting, unless anyone is adamant that they the privelage.

Nice, a volunteer. We'll go by the standard 20,10,10 format.

Here is the save. Keep in mind Conquest is our victory condition. You may start whenever you want, but the roster isn't complete. We can strategize some more after the first play I imagine. Hopefully we can get a fourth or fifth player soon.

Save: (removed)

Damn I spelled privilege wrong and now you have quoted it so I can't sneak in and edit it before anyone notices. :mad:

Damn I spelled privilege wrong and now you have quoted it so I can't sneak in and edit it before anyone notices. :mad:

Haha, people will mock you in the public square!! :D

Turn 1 4000BC
Scout spots wheat tile. Settler moves 1 SW to bring Wheat tile within range.
Turn 2 3950BC
Hattusas founded on river.
Turn 3 3900BC
Bronze working undertaken
Turn 4 3850BC
Discovered the Byzantines to the North West. They don't want to trade. They have a bigger army than us already.
Turn 5 3800BC
Scout heads of South.
Turn 6 3750BC
Warrior built. Changed to another scout. Warrior fortified in Hattusas. The Byzantines are very close.
Turn 7 3700BC
Lots of mountains to the south west.
Turn 8 3650BC
More hills and mountains. But dye found on coast and wine on an offshore island.
Turn 9 3600BC
More dyes inland
Turn 10 3550BC
Scout produced changed to granary. Scout off to north east.
Turn 11 3500BC
Lake or sea to the south of Hattusas
Turn 12 3450BC
Definately a lake to the south. Good fresh water.
Turn 13 3400BC
More dyes to the east on the coast.
Turn 14 3350BC
It looks like we may have trouble with the Byzantines soon as they will be expanding into the same area as us to our West.
Turn 15 3300BC
Maybe we should hedge them in if we can.
Turn 16 3520BC
Turn 17 3200BC
There are some cows and rivers to the south east that would be good setling country.
Turn 18 3150BC
Definateley limited space to the north.
Turn 19 3100BC
The Byzantines are ahead of us. Traded Ceremonial burrial for Pottery and 16 gold. They won't trade anything else other than BW which we nearly have ourselves.
Turn 20 3050BC
Byzantine settler heading our way. They are going to settle in our prime area. Byzantines must be a number 1 target when we are strong enough.

OK, We will have a granary in about 2 turns with the wheat and cow worked we should be able to get some sort of a warrior settler factory going. We have never been big enough to grow a settler yet, so the granary is a must if we are going to push out settlers. I have marked possible sites on the map. I think we should try and seal of the land to Byzantines if we can by settling that way first (white dots) the red dots are where there are some good sites that will help seal of the Byzantines. I don't suppose we will be able to contain them though. There are some good places to the east with rivers and cows and stuff. No signs of anybody else yet.
There was no signs of any goody huts anywhere. It looks like there are none to be had or else I would have found them by now. This is a major dissadvantage to us as an expansionist civ as we lose much of the advantage of being expansionist.
Did you have no barbs selected? I think that gets rid of goody huts too, but I'm not sure.

Save is here. It is C3C with patch.

This is a custom map and there *should* be good huts, but maybe not :sad: . Cutting off the Byzantines might be a good idea - they will be a strong rival. The red dots you put were way too far away. We need to build up our core+distant cities that have strategic resources. Were you going for dyes with one of those red dot cities, because we are already close to dyes in Hattusus. Lulluby is up next. I'll go after Lullaby if we don't have a fourth player by then.

Red dots. There is a cow next to one and dyes next to the other. There are no other resources that I can see (as yet) next to us. There is a wine on a little island of the coast to the west. (not shown on the map) but nobody can get to it without galleys. I think the Byzantines will start settling our lands further. If we can block them by settling across to the west it might help :) or it may make them attack us before we are ready :(
There are a lot of mountains around our starting spot so the land is not good for growing settlers, the next city should have been where the Byzantines have pinched :(
Maybe the lake and coastal sites will allow us to grow OK. In the longer term there are some good places to the south east. It's up to the next player but the core area is not the best for quick growth. It will be good for productive cities with lots of shields about, but not too good for population growth.
More of a challenge this way :D

I like how you put the granary in hattusus - it can be our single massive sttler factory. I still disagree with those red dots. I didn't see the cow, but the corruption will take away any gains at that distance. I think we should build close and expand out until we see a horse or Iron, some quality stuff :D .

If we want to block in the Byzantines we need to settle Westward. If you concentrate on the core you will not be able to block them in. Probably this is a moot point as they will be crowding us out before we get anywhere near those red dots. They would probably attack us anyway if we managed to block them in, unless thay have land west of them that we can't see. They were just a suggestion as to where some decent city sites were situated. We don't have many really good sites close in to us for growth. Still if we can get settlers pumped out of the capitol and troops out of some high shield cities close to the capitol. Maybe we can let the Byzantines build cities and take them over later :)

Maybe we can let the Byzantines build cities and take them over later :)

Good plan! :D

Red dots are definitely too far away to settle early. White dots are ok but not ideal. I will post a dot map for discussion before doing my turns. At this stage of the game decisions should be made on sort of a democratic basis.

We should settle at least two or three productive city sites and get some military production running. Settling west is obvious, but should get the Byzantines angry.

Another point: as expansionist and commercial we start with the all important pottery and with alphabet, the most valuable trading tech as well as the starting tech for the philo slingshot. research on BW was in three ways not the optimal choice. First, as our scouts are supposed to pop goody huts (which didn't happen) you usually research the cheapest tech around if you don't have a plan to research a special tech (like philo for example). Goody huts that pop a tech will alway pop the cheapest tech that we don't actually research ourselves. So a goody hut would have popped CB, while it would pop BW if we researched CB ourselves. Second, with alphabet as starting tech you have a really good chance to reach philo first to get a free tech even if you go for writing on min. Third, the wheel would have given us access to our UU and horses, which we need for our UU.

I don't like the 3MC too much, it is an all in one unit, fast, with extra att and def, but imho too expensive If we are going to use it, we should build it early.

BTW, the game goal is conquest. Is this meant to be as early as possible? Or do we want to build a strong infrastructure and culture too?

Unfortunately, there seems to be less goodie huts on this map than a "real" map, so we will just have to make do :( . For cities, as stated before, I like building out from a core. This seems to be a good option as we can surround Hattusus with 6 good cities. There are lots of hills and plains though, so cities should be made with irrigating plains in mind.

Conquest is however we can get it done ;) . We are very close to 2 powerful civs - Byzantine and Greece, the other civs are far to the south. Right now, I think we should build defence (Swords & Spears) and start expanding. Once we have a few cities, reevaluate whether we can take on the Byzantines. Greece we probably won't be able to eliminate in the Ancient Age due to their Hoplites.

I agree that the white dots are not ideal but I was looking at creating a ring as there are no really ideal spots around us. The red dots were just to show the nearest decent areas for city building that I had found to the West.
I found no goody huts at all, that's why I wondered if there were any. I would have expected to find some in the area explored, nobody else has been there to pop them, so where are they?
I don't think I found any horses anywhere near us, so we will have a problem building the UU unless we can trade for them. I think horses show on the map straight away (or do you need the wheel?). I hadn't thought about the UU, in fact I haven't played the Hittites so wasn't aware of it.

(or do you need the wheel?).

Yes you do.

BTW, shouldn't you be named Hawkmoon as Eternal Champion? Or Elric with the albino picture?

Yes well the picture is Elric. The name Hawklord came from the band Hawkwind but was based on Moorcocks books. He even included the band in one series of books. So the Hawklords were an instance of the eternal champion. It's a long time since I read Moorcock, though he seems to be publishing new Fantasy stuff again. Maybe worth a look.
Edit this book was 1975

More interesting, Moorcock works on a movie script for Elric.

I will play my turns until the byzantian settler has founded a city. Then I will post a dotmap.

The map is eastern mediterranean, we are in the mid of Anatolia, and Byzanz is where it should be, at the Bosporus. This will make it easy to find the other civs.

Mesopotamia should be really crowded with Sumeria, Babylon and Persia.

Some worker turns have been misused. One road too much and one irrigation missing.

Hattusas will be a 4 turn settler factory with the flood plain in the south irrigated.

Turn 0, 3050: science set to 60%, BW still in 1

IBT: Byzantines found Adrianople
Research on BW finished. Switch to writing at max. To be discussed: try for philo or go for the wheel to see horses ASAP?

Dotmap:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MPSG2_3000BC.jpg

1, 2 and 3 encircle Adrianople. They are placed in a pattern so that they will be a s close as possible without ever getting cultural pressure from Adrianople or Constantinople.

1 won't grow much, and it will not be very productive for some time also.

2 will be really productive some day, getting 2 bg, and a 3rd after expansion. But in the beginning it will have corrupted.

3 is also a good site, but lacks 2food fields without working a few tiles.

4, 6 and 7 are the best sites for core cities imho. I placed them to get fresh water access and/or access to one productive tile without expansion. 5 will close the ring, not a good site, but I don't see a better one in this area.

The numbers do NOT show the order in which the cities should be settled, although I'd prefer to do 1 to 3 in that order to cut the Byzantines off.

It would be nice to get some experienced player to confirm that or make suggestions.

The Byz just got a really good city with that cow on it :mad: , oh well. I think the best option is move #6 NW - It will be on a river, spoiling a desert, and most importantly, the game on forrest will be 2.2.1 - that's the most productive (close) square I see.

I moved the worker by mistake once :blush: so rather than waste 2 shots I built a road. Then moved to the newly expanded special tile.

I'm not sure where you mean Meteor.

Taking site 1 first would be OK to start but won't grow very much without expansion. 2 as you say would get coruption for a while. 3 is OK probably the best in that direction. I'd say the rest were evenly spaced but it would depend where iron and suchlike things appear. I suspect that site 2 will be pinched by the Byzantines before we can get to it as we are still a little way off producing a settler.
We are also very weak compared to them and need some military so I would try and get the next city wherever it goes to produce units, maybe 3 then 1 (or 1 then 3 if you think it best). 3 would give us a boat option for making contacts and trading sooner. Maybe the scouts will find other civs before that anyway :) even goody huts :hmm:
Maybe developing the core would be best so that we can get enough forces to see off the Byzantines early and take back whatever cities they build on our land.
I'd say an early war is a must with the Byzantines so close and in competition for the same turf. We probably can't cut off the Byzantines without inciting them to war on us, unless they have loads of land off in the other direction.

When do you think we should war with them? I think 3-5 cities, 5-10 Swords at earliest.

Reasons for this to be 2nd city:

1 game+Plains+river tile=2.2.1
2 It's on the river corner - no need to build Aquaduct (but don't let this city get to size 7 if it builds granary.
3 It's close to capital
4 It's on desert, which will waste the deserts negative effect.


Here's where I meant for city: (pic removed)

Doh! Now I understand :)
Only thing with that is that you would have to move the others to keep the ring even and avoid corruption in the other cities. I'm still not 100% on how that works but I think if we had 1 city closer then the rest would get more corruption being a little further away.
As to war, when ever the players think the army is big enough or maybe has more advanced units that the Byzantines. It is the opposite way now. I agree we need to build at least 4 or 5 cities and have 5 plus units. It would depend where the Byzantines are. If we could take their cities on this side and hold them on the land bridge we would have a killing zone and need less troops.
We will see :scan:

Doh! Now I understand :)
Only thing with that is that you would have to move the others to keep the ring even and avoid corruption in the other cities. I'm still not 100% on how that works but I think if we had 1 city closer then the rest would get more corruption being a little further away.

I have no idea how the ring corruption worksas I am new to "elite" Civ gaming :D . It seems I read it has no use in Conquest - only in vanilla/ptw - but again, I'm not sure.

As to war, when ever the players think the army is big enough or maybe has more advanced units that the Byzantines. It is the opposite way now. I agree we need to build at least 4 or 5 cities and have 5 plus units. It would depend where the Byzantines are. If we could take their cities on this side and hold them on the land bridge we would have a killing zone and need less troops.
We will see :scan:

That's a possibly good strategy. If we could somehow take the land bridge and fortify spears and catapults and let them walk right into it. Although they have dromon and could land troops around us if they are smart, so i dunno.

Heh, I changed my mind about city location #6 - if you haven't gone already. A desert connected to a river is a floodplain, so we can get growth from there and the game/forrest tile.

I wouldn't go for swords but for 3MC instead. A despotic GA would give us no gold bonus, but the shield bonus will be heavy as there are many 1 shield tiles around. This will allow us to build even more 3MC to overrun some mesopotamian civs.

RCP isn't effective for lowering corruption in C3C. I usually try to space cities evenly for three reasons:

1. less complicated overlapping and therefore easier citizen management

2. cities spaced cxxc can easliy support each other when attacked

3. aesthetic reasons :D

I will go for city site 3 then 1. If 2 is settled by then (the Byzantines will also have to settle in the different direction) I will go for the wheat south of 2.

Building a galley on the north coast won't do us much good. The Black Sea is merely an inland sea. Building one on the south coast would bring us contacts to Greece and Egypt which we won't get for some time otherwise.

Well Ok but your map does not show cities cxxc. more like cxxxc. I read somewhere in the forum that corruption is worked out by 1 per stright tile and 1.5 for a diagonal tile.
3 would be more productive than 1 in the short term. (Probably the long term too). Catapults would be very useful too. But that is in the future. I agree we need a decently productive city for the second site.

cxxc for first ring is *very* dense. These cities should be allowed to grow to size 12. Outside I follow cxxc quite strictly if I plan on warmongering.

The cities on the ring have cxxc or cxxxc depending on where the bestt sites are.

I'm sure you already read the following articles, but in case you didn't, do so.

Monarch to Emperor (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_montoemp.shtml)

Hittite civ review (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_civ_hittites.shtml)

I will play now and propably have finished within one hour.

Turn 1, 3000 BC:

switch research to writing, due in 27. We should be able to trade for the wheel, and I'll wager with only the Greece and the Byzantines starting with alphabet we still have a chance to reach philo first.

Renamed the eastern scout scout1, the western scout scout2.

scout1 s, s, spots desert only
scout2 w, w, planing to circle around our homelands counter-clockwise

IBT: nothing

Turn 2, 2950 BC:

Lux to 10% due to pop growth
scout2 sw, s
scout1 s, s, spotting even more desert
Mming Hattusas for 2 more gp

IBT: nothing

Turn 3, 2900 BC:

Hattusas Granary -> Settler, due in 5
Worker e to flood plain
scout2 s, s
scout1 s, s, spotting non-expanded green borders

IBT: nothing

Turn 4, 2850 BC:

Worker starts irrigating the flood plain
scout2 sw, s
scout1 e, e
the green borders belong to Babylon
Trade them Alphabet, get Masonry and Warrior Code

IBT: nothing

Turn 5, 2800 BC:

scout2 se, s
scout1 e, e, meets grey persian spearman+warrior fortified on a hill
Persians are up IW and Myst :eek:

IBT: nothing

Turn 6, 2750 BC:

scout2 s, s
scout1 w, s
Moving down the Euphrat and Tigris rivers will bring us to Sumeria sooner or later

IBT: nothing

Turn 7, 2710 BC:
scout2 se, e
scout1 s, s

IBT: nothing

Turn 8, 2670 BC:
Hattusas Settler -> Warrior
Worker roads flood plains
Settler moves to site 3
scout2 e, e
scout1 se, s
Lux set to 0%, science to 100%

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 2630 BC:
scout2 e, e
scout1 s, s

IBT: scout1 meets sumerian settler coming from the south

Turn 10, 2590 BC:
Sumeria is up Myst, no trades possible
scout1 s, e, moving on to meet Arabia
scout2 se, e, finds furs. Maybe we can settle there first

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_Hittites2590BC.jpg

The red dot marks a powerhouse city site, the red ring is furs.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_Hittites2590_BC.SAV)

I had to decide whether to build the settler slowly to avoid falling back to size 1 or building it faster to get the 2nd city asap. Once again I hope for an experienced player to varify my decision to build the settler as fast as possible.

Interesting developments...

2590 press enter
2550 settler moved to #3
2510 Tarsus founded
2470
2430
2390
2350
2310 Tarsus is building barracks
2270
2230 I notice adrianople is now the Byzantines capitol? Has this always been?
2190 :lol: The Greeks (who we haven't even met!) have kicked the Byzantines out of Constantinoble! :lol: I assume they now have 1 city.

That's a pretty major development. we might want to attack and capture adrianople as it is good/high production. Although if we do this, I'm sure that Greece will be after us next.

Second big thing: As soon as the worker gets done mining, Hattusus will be a 6-turn settler factory (right now it is 7-turn). Keep in mind to always keep the city screen worker on the wheat+cattle+floodplain at size 3. Size 4 >forrest adjust luxury slider. size 5 hills adjust luxury slider.

Also, we discover alphabet next turn. I assume we trade it and go 100% to philosophy??

Greeks are currently the same color as us (i'm having civ color issues):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/mpsg2_1.gif

Yes well I wondered about the ring thing but you said cities spaced cxxc can easliy support each other when attacked I was just a bit :confused: , not difficult for me getting :confused: . I agree with your last post. I have been up and down from Emperor since Civ 1, though I am still learning the new civs and stuff in C3C. It was interesting to read Ision's opinion about the Hittites, there UU is not very useful really is it?
Trading is paramount at this level so yea get those scouts out there.
The red dot would be good, even better if we can build the forbidden palace thereabouts :)
I think we will have to deal with the Byzantines before we get anywhere near settling that. Maybe not, we will see.
Nice trade at 2850BC :D
So is the plan to build up the core for troop production, with the capital as a settler pump and take out the Byzantines asap.
I would say yes get a second city quick so we can start producing troops to put of AI wars.
That would be my plan (at least at the moment). Any other plans welcome.

Woaaa! All change whilst I was typing up the last post :lol:
Kill the Byzantines and block of the Greeks. Bearing in mind the Byzantines have spearmen in their last city this may be a problem for now. It is looking like a total military tactic would be good for the forseeable future. What do you guys think?

One thing is, Greek has Hoplite and they may be in Golden Age :crazyeye: . Very hard to kill them right now. As for Adrianople we don't have our powerful units yet, so will have to do with archers/spearmen. A rush against adrianople will also take away from the newly formed settler factory. I'm leaning towards not taking it. I think Greece will take it before we get our first archer built :( . What do you guys think?

And, here's the save: (removed)

I think you could be right. We need troops quick or else the Greeks will steamroll over us too :eek:

Don't attack Greece. Just take Adrianople and block the chokepoint.

The 3MC ist a strong unit under the right circumstances, and these occur here: no unpassable mountain ranges (the mountain lines have gaps) and no large jungles/swamps. As for Adrianople, I'd go with about 7 Archers or so, if Greece doesn't take Adrianople before. This city lies in our first ring. We might want to change settle order to get the productive cities settled earlier.

The other civs seem to be in worse starting positions: on flood plains/desert where they will stay low on shields for quite some time. We should be able to settle most good spots to the se and e.

Hattusas will be a 4 turn settler factory at 4->6 if set up correctly. This is rather simple. If you are not sure how to do it read the article about spotting settler factories in the war academy. It will need some MMing at every growth though. In any case, don't stop building settlers from the moment Hattusas reaches size 4 until there are no more good sites to settle.

Also if you want to go for philo do NOT TRADE WRITING!
If we want a shot at philo we should deny the other civs the basic tech for that.

Check trades every turn! If one of the three mesopotamian civs or Arabia gets writing, trade it if you get valuable techs for it. Greece shouldn't have gotten any other conctacts yet.

Also if we didn't make contact with Greece yet we should do so ASAP.

I take it is my turn. So I have picked it up will play soon.

AI
Byzantine settler/spear duet heading for our hill site.

2150 BC 1 Writing=>Philosophy
Hattusas settler=>warrior
Will go for site 6. We are not strong enough to take Byzantines and need production.
2110BC 2 Persians have writing already :(
2070BC
Hattusas warrior=>settler
2030BC 3
Ugarit Founded
science to 80% g-1 ph in 10
AI
Adrianapole expands
1990BC 4
Contact with Egypt - no trades we want
1950BC 5
Trade
Get:
Mysticism + Wheel + 19g for Alphabet
Iron working for wheel + 28g
Iron appears on Hattusas doorstep :D
1910BC 6
Trade
IW to Egypt get 66g
AI
Babylon builds embassy in Hatt
1870BC 7
Hatt
settler => warrior
1790BC 9
Scout 1 spots a goody hut :eek: :dance: :band:
1750BC 10
Harran Founded
Bloody maps :cry: after all this time :cry: :cry:


Settler/warrior factory is running between size 3 and 5 but needs tweeking.

Philosophy in 3.

With luck we should be able to get Mathematics and poly when we are 1 from PH.
We need some workers to connect things.
Fingers crossed for 3 turns. :)

If we can take out Byzantium, we now have the technology if not the troops, we can seal the land bridge and get 2 cities without building them.
Well it's nice to dream ;)
Current Empire below

And also the save file

Yes, things are looking up. It's funny to be happy to have 4 cities :love: . Yeah, now with Iron we can change up a bit. Hattusus continues to produce settlers, while the other cities can produce Swordsmen/workers for the Byzantine invasion! I would change Harran and Ugarin build orders to workers or barracks> then Swords, skipping spears.

Workers would be good once they get to size 2. It may be worth changing to warriors so we can get workers (and connected) as quick as possible. The second city should be able to build a worker soon.
I'll leave that up to the next illustrious leader.
p.s. the worker is on the iron now.

Overall this looks pretty good, but

I have to say that the worker has been misused in his case of developing a 4 turn settler factory. The principle ist to pump out a settler every 4 turns while growing from size 4 to 6 and then back to 4 due to the settler. Connecting the dyes and getting the settler factory up and running would have been more important in the long run then connection the iron.

The iron connected will block us from building warriors, as they get replaced bei swordsmen, which are very costly to build at that early stage of the game. Also we could have built warriors and upgraded them to swords at a later stage when the iron got connected. Spearmen now will be the cheapest unit we can build, still double the price than warriors, too expensive as military police. In sum, connecting iron that soon can be more of a curse than a blessing.

Also mining a hill isn't of much use at this time because we need every food we can get for growing and getting settlers out. Irrigating some plains would have been the wiser choice.

This is not meant to be offensive in any way, the all around situation is good. it's simply a statement that in my humble opinion some things could have been worked out even better.

With the dyes connected and 2 MP we will still need to raise lux to 10% when Hattusas reaches size 5. But using the lux slider is no crime indeed ;)

Also the Byzantines misplaced Casearea. We will have to raze it :D

I don't think I can play before saturday morning CET. If you wish you can skip me. If noone hasn't sent a got it or a finished turn set, I will play then.

I take your point about the worker factory, another irrigated plains would help with it. Can we afford not to have the iron connected with the Byzantines so close. We can use another city to build the spearmen or send out settlers alone for a while as there are few barbarians around. I think they are sedentary, which is why there are few goody huts, the barbs are sitting around their villages not going far.
We need to build up forces for a quick strike at the Byzantines before the Greeks attack them again or the Byzantines attack us.
Perhaps we need a balance between military and settlers.
If you want the pure settler pump then the iron needs to remain unconnected, but that leaves only weaker military to protect us while it is in operation.
Do you want to gamble with your peoples future? :crazyeye:

No barbs is even more propable. Means no huts too.

What use is the connected iron for if we simply can't afford to build 30 shield swordsmen and can't build 10 shield warriors any more? That early we need settlers, workers and military police, plus some cheap attack units just for the case. Archers would have done here. Building barracks and swords requires a long long time where we could put out settler after settler.

Byzantines won't attack us. They already found their common enemy. Plus they have been weakened significantly.

Don't be afraid to make criticism. I won't say that I am the civ-master, although Hawklord might be :D . I would generally connect Iron asap, but I do see your point. Here's an alternative: after settler is produced, as long as we are not at war, send him by himself and then build the warrior or two.

There are some goody huts, I found one and a barbarian sitting on a mountain, though I have not seen his village so he might have been created by an AI scout. There are very few if any, so little to stop settlers going it alone.
The question is whether pumping out settler/warrior pairs will be better in the long run than taking 2 Byzantine cities and sealing off the Greeks at the cost of slightly slower settler production, perhaps not slower if only settlers are produced. We could get expansion at a similar rate either way but with less well guarded settlers and more micro managing of the factory. Probably more wasteful on shields that way too.
OK, warriors are cheaper but building up the ring cities will get high shield producing cities and better units.
Maybe we should forget the iron and irrigate one more plains, build workers and develop the ring cities while operating the settler factory and connect the iron when the ring cities can take over the unit production at a faster rate. By which time other cities will be able to pop out a settler or 2 every so often so we can build up our core again.

Connecting the iron will have high importance once the core is productive. In order to get the core up we need workers first.

That said, we might even want to produce one worker or another in hattusas in between the settlers.

Also, I wouldn't go for warrior/settler pairs, but instead produce

For now the build order in new cities should be something like warrior, worker, warrior, warrior (as MP in newly founded towns) then barracks followed by archers/swords/3MC.

BTW, any sign of horses anywhere? The screenshot shows only the immediate surroundings.

There is a possibility to zoom out by pressing "z" before taking the screenie.

Lullaby, can you not play between now and Saturday, or are you playing next. I'm not sure :crazyeye: .

It's my turn, but I won't be able to play before saturday. So you can skip me if you wish.

However, I will play on saturday if noone else hasn't played or claimed to play the next turn set by then.

Alright. I will play sometime today then.

Horses next to Harran but will need to expand to get them. I considered shifting the city but decided that we can get the horses when we need them so didn't.
I agree 2 prioritees for now are
1 Workers to develop 1st ring
2 settlers to finish ring and expand south. Especially that nice wheat producing area :)

Right choice. The horses will fly in as we settle the #1 dot from my former dot map.

We should raze Caesarea before with archers or swords (preferably archers, they are much cheaper). This city is just totally wrong placed.

Greece & Byz must have kissed and made up...

1750 change build orders. press enter.
1725
1700 We are first to Philosophy! I take Code of laws so we can get Republic next, but Republic will now take 45-50 turns :eek: !! I think it is still best to go for it.

1. We have the tech advantage.
2. We can trade for "old" tech w/ Republic.
3. Republic will help 100x more than anything else in the Ancient Age.

1675 build settler. move him towards location #1. change build to worker.
1650 Tarsus builds barracks. It is a slow growth city. I start build on spearman, send warrior to Hattusus.
Theodora wants writing. I tell her goodbye.
1625 Hattusus builds worker. change build to Swordsmen (just in case, but also to fix the build sequence).
A Byzantine Settler/Spear combo come to cross our land. new worker goes to claim dyes.
1600 Hattusha founded. A Byz warrior heads towards Tarsus - I retreat the exTarsus warrior across the river. I'm considering popRushing the spearmen, but the population growth is so slow so I don't.
1575 Byz warrior goes north, so I continue our warrior movement.
1550
1525
1500 Hattusus requires micromanagement on every turn...but it is now a true settler factory.
Hattusha is build a spearman to get the result of worker woodchopping.
Haran's build should be changed to worker.

That warrior is on his way to Hattusha:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/h1.gif

Here's the z pic you wanted:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/h2.gif

And the save...

(removed)

Can't we trade writing for some techs now that we don't need it? Maybe too late now, I would have traded it just before we got Philo.
I'll get the save and play another set. I would finish the ring and then send the next settler West to settle on the coast where we can get the wine and block off any Byzantian expansion towards our south lands. Start of second ring. Hopefully we will be starting to build up forces by then. Possibly the Byzantines will expand that way first, we will see.

No one would give me any trades. You can try though. Also, there is probably a Byz city to our west...that's where they were headed. This is good though, the Byz core is only two cities, so we could knock it out with a small stack of swordsmen (3-6).

City location 4 looks good. Then we should probably build swordsmen and take the byzantines out.

1500BC 0
Trades
Persia give HB + 31g for code of laws
Egypt gives Poly for HB + writing
Babylon gives Maps + 3g for Poly and CofL
Summeria gives Maths + 33g for HB, Poly and Writing

In summary
We get Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Map Making, Maths and 67g
For Code of Laws and writing.
We still have philosophy all to ourselves for trading later. And all of the AI's gold so they can't sell to each other for a while.

AI
Summeria discover construction, won't trade though.

1475BC 1
Hattusas expands
Tarsus
spear to worker.

AI
Babylon demands Philo - Ha, no chance. He backs down.
Byzantian city of Nicaea steals our last ring position. :mad:

1450BC 2
Zzzz

1425BC 3
Zzzz

AI
Another Byzantine settler/warrior is heading for my other site. :eek: Build troops :mad:

1400BC 4
Harran connected

1375BC 5
Tarsus worker => archer

1350BC 6

1325BC 7

1300BC 8
Ugarit worker+>archer

1275BC 9
Babylonian troops approach from the south

Hattussas
Settler=>settler

AI
Babs are going towards Byzantium city, maybe they will knock it down for us.

Babs are level with us in tech. Time to trade Philo away. Monarchy and Construction available to trade. No won't trade.

1250BC 10
Tyrana founded.

Settler in Harran with escort. I'll leave it up to the next ruler where to take it. Furs to the south, wines to the west as the coastal spot next to wheat is still there.
We should destroy those pesky Byzantines asap.

map:

Here is the save

Looks pretty good. Some workers will help. Maybe switch the archers to settlers if no shields will be lost and the workers are finished after pop growth.

Caesarea and Nicaea are badly placed. Adrianople and Varna are in great positions to be kept. Not nice that they settled to sites in our first ring though.

Hattusha could need a temple for cultural dominance.

I think we should put settler production on the backburner and go for military so we can sort out the Byzantines. The Babylonians are going to be the civ that gets big by the looks of it and they are coming our way. We need to start warmongering soon. Putting settlers out to the south, get the furs and the wines. I'd go for the wines then the furs, by which time we should be able to rally a big enough force to take out the Byzantine core and get our core in a better shape to give us a solid base to conquer the world.
Me NO! i'm a peaceful builder honest i'm not a meglomaniacil dictator. Well not yet anyway :)

I agree that now is the time to build army to take out the Byzantines. I would build swords however, as archers are at a dissadvantage against fortified spears.

1250 Send Warriors from Hattusus and Hattusha to be upgraded in Ugarit. Change Hattusus to Swordsman. Poprush walls in Hattusha.
1225 Get 27 Gold from Byz for Philosophy. Upgrade 2 Warriors to Swords in Ugarit. This may be a bad move: I move Settler towards Caesaria. I don't know where he should go and we are short on units.
1200 I send the settler by himself to the 2 wheat coastal town. While we are still in Despotism 20-25 turns, he will be able to poprush some defense.
1175
1150 Hattusus is now a 3 turn Swordsmen factory :lol:
1125
1100
1075 Forrest chopped down...now Hattusus 4 turn sword factory :( Babylonian spear+warrior appear to be heading to Tarsus, our Swordsmen follows them.Rush spear in hattusha,rush sword in ugarit.
1050 Meet Greece. They are unadvanced much like Byzantines. Swords begin formation for invasion :evil:
1025 Allepo founded. Harran rushes Swords. Invasion force readied.
1000 Tarsus and Harran build Swords. Begins work on....3-Man Chariot! Persian Spearmen is eyeballing Allepo. 3 Swords are ready to raze Caesarea. 4 Swords approach Adrianople. Hattusha should build settler after Chariot So we can settle near where Caesaria was...

Try to wait until Republic to get Golden Age. Whoever plays next gets some fun turns. We are at war with Byz! Our rep has diminished somewhat (dangerous with all these different tribes around our territory).
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/h3.gif

Besides the Persian spear, there is a 2warrior/settler stack in the left of the pic. We need a warrior in this city ASAP. Our new (and endangered) town:

(removed)

Here's the save file, good luck.

(removed)

oops, double post...

Given that the Byzantines have been producing settlers to expand again we should have a chance of taking them out. Plus with some of our UUnits about we can get a golden agewhich will help. On the down side some of the other civs might join in against us as we have an empty city, but we can always rebuild it. It is better to get the Byzantines out of our core area so we can get max production and they are currently weak.
Can we drag in some other civs on our side before the Byzantines do. Namely Persia and Babylon so they do not attack us from the south?

Do you want me to pick this up or should we wait for Lullaby tomorrow?

I don't have the skills to recognize how the cpu's will react to a situation. I know their mood declined against us when I declared war.There's nothing we could really spare to give them - we need all the money/science we can get.

As far as playing, go ahead, it's just a game :) .Unfortunately there is only 3 of us so that means each has to play a lot (which I don't really mind). There are still many crucial early turns to go, so he will have his chance Saturday. If you do play today, I'll do another turn and we'll just go from there...

lots of action in this game up ahead...be ready! :cool:

OK I will play it now.

I hope the 7 swords are enough. You might stand against 5 spears or so in Adrianople.

I hope the 7 swords are enough. You might stand against 5 spears or so in Adrianople.

Our military was "strong" compared to theirs back when we only had 1 swordsman. The most spears they'll have is 3, but probably 2. I am overconfident that they are weak. ;)

Sorry to butt in, but I have been looking for an SG to join, and I think you only have 3 players. If you have room for someone else then I would like to play. :)

Fine with me :)

Yeah, we've gone so far with us three, but another would be great. You can play next after Hawklord if you want, just read the past few threads to catch up. Welcome aboard! :salute:

OK I'll play after Hawklord. Nice to be here :)

1000BC 0 Changed Tyrana warrior => cat

AI Persians, Babs and Egyptians moving about. Keep an eye on them.

975BC 1
Caesarea Destroyed with the loss of 1 sword. 2 workers captured.
Told Greece to get out of our lands or else war. They moved.

AI Babylonian troops cross our lands. I will let them go for now as they are on a mountain. Persians are also approaching.

950BC 2
Adrianapole Lost 2 swords but killed a spear, redlined spear and weakened another.

AI
Tyrana Byzantine attacking warrior killed.

925BC 3 Troops moving

AI Persians are approaching through our mountains in force. Mostly spears. Not happy with the look of this.

900BC 4
Adrianapole Brave swordsman attacks city and redlines defender. 3MC kills last defender and creates a golden age. Captured.

Byzantium will give us Varna for peace but we really want the capitol & they have another settler somewhere. If I can get 2 cities I will take peace with them as I do not like the look of the Persian movements.

AI Persians are withdrawing.
875BC 5 Moving troops

850BC 6 Meet Arabs, we now know everybody. Arabs won't trade.
Republic in 4 turns
Booted Persia out of our lands.
Nicea Sword redlines but kills spear. 3MC kills archer outside the city.
Varna Hold off on attack. If we attack now it will be destroyed. If I can get capitol it will move and we can possibly capture it.

Slider up to 20% for happy citizens.

AI Persians are back
825BC 7
Nicea destroyed. Would have been nice to capture it.
Varna Lost sword killed spear

800BC 8 Troops move

AI Booted Persians again.

775BC 9 Republic=>construction

AI Persians are back in our lands.

750BC 10 Troops move.
Settler in place for our last inner ring city.

We have the choice to change governments.
If we make peace with the Byzantines they will give us everything including their other city. I think it is worth doing that as we need to consolidate our gains so far. Reasons are:
1 Hassitusas will produce a settler next turn to get the plains North West to seal out the Greeks.
2 The Persians will likely declare war on us soon if we remain at war with the Byzantines. They have been creating incusions every turn and the AI see's you as potentially weak if you are at war with another civ.
3 We can take out the rest of the Byzantines once the peace is over.
4 We are in a golden age and should take seize the moment to build up our infastructure.
5 If we continue on and destroy the Byzantines the cities will be raised.
6 I think our culture is better than the Byzantines so we should be OK for flips.
7 I think we have achieved our goals in completing the inner ring.

I don't think we should change gov's until the GA is over. Maybe go for a suitable wonder. Get some troops, settlers and improvements built.

I would have made peace a couple of turns ago but didn't want to tie the next players hands.

Here is the save.

Good job sacking the Byzantines. Since we are at peace and in GA, we need to expand like mad, taking advantage of the land you cleared out.

I would've avoided the despot GA, but sometimes it can be a *huge* boost that turns the game, so really it's ok either way. Does anyone have strategies that take advantage of the despotic GA? I know we need to expand, but is this GA good for expanding, or should we build infrastructure, or both?

I don't really see how Persia could hurt us (especially now), but they keep walking around our territory. I think they're at war with the Byzantines.

Our new player mad-bax is up next!

The despotism penalty means that we can't reap the maximum rewards for the GA. But we will make more shields, and we will be able to build more units. I would press on militarily and worry about infrastructure once we change government.

Got it. Will play in 10 hours.

This is 1.22 right?

I'd advise not to change gvt. while in a GA. Nothing more stupid then losing GA turns through anarchy.

This is 1.22 right?

Yep. 56789.

I'd advise not to change gvt. while in a GA. Nothing more stupid then losing GA turns through anarchy.

So true. I actually did that once :cry: ....




....reload :D .

Also, with mostly desert between us and Babylon, I'd go for 3MC and later Knights rather than Swords. Use these to keep Greece at bay.

We are not at peace yet. But the Byzantines will talk peace and give us everything they have. I would take them up at the moment. I didn't want to do it 2 turns before my turns ended. Though I would advise that it would be the best option.
According to the manual our shunned gov is despotism but our prefered is fascism. What does that do to the GA? I still think it would be unwise to waste 1/4 of the GA changing gov's.
Fill up the land, build troops and change once we get out of the GA.
We are also starting to fall behind in tech. We should trade it to catch up when the time is right. One of the others will get it soon. Some time in the next 20 shots we should trade it carefully and we will be back on par.
Maybe for an aggressive civ monarchy might be better until we are much bigger. What does everybody think?

I have no intention of changing governments. I have looked at the save and am leaning towards peeling settlers off our bigger cities. We can also trade Republic for tech Parity. My heart says trade it to Egypt Republic for everything they have and then declare war as they enter anarchy. My head says fill the available space with cities and then hit Babylon with chariots/knights whilst starting to build some infrastructure.

First of all here is >>THE SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-530BC.SAV)

Turnlog
(0) 750BC: Pre-Turn
OK. Here we go then.
Sumeria have the most to offer so..
Republic to Sumeria for Monarchy, Construction, Literature and 123g.
This leaves Currency remaining for the AA. We can get this in 10 turns by setting the slider to 100%. This I do meaning Ugarit will Riot. Therefore I whip a settler from this town to reduce the population.

Take Peace with the Byzantines for their remaining city (Smyrna) and all their 5g :p

Most cities switched to settler. Adrianople switched to galley. (I don't know the map, maybe this is not optimal).
Aleppo is changed to granary, since it is an obvious worker pump.

IBT:
Hattusas Settler - Settler
Ugarit Settler - Library

(1)730BC:
Found Ankuwa - Library
We need to try to avoid improving hills until all the flat land is improved if possible. Plains are best value as they only take 8 turns to move onto the tile, road and then irrigate.
Persia have a couple of workers for sale. I buy them with Monarchy in the hope that Xerses will then revolt to Monarchy.

IBT:
Harran Settler - Library

(2)710BC:
Quiet


(3)690BC:
Quiet

(4)670BC:
Babylon and Egypt learn currency. They only want 150g for it, so I buy it from Egypt FOR 135G, since from what I can see, Babylon look a better target for the next war.
Babylon got Mono as their free tech, so I set research to Engineering in 30 turns. We won't make it before revolting obviously.

IBT:
Hattusas Settler - Settler
Adrianople Galley - Settler
Tarsus Settler - Library.

(5)650BC:
Found Kadesh - Courthouse
Galley goes to have a look at Egypt.
Sumeria now have Monotheism

(6)630BC:
Found Adana - Spear.
I hate building spears. But when you see where the town is you'll understand. ;)

IBT:
The Sumerians wipe out the Persians. Poor Xerses. <shrug>

(7)610BC:
Quiet. Found a hut. Won't get a settler or a tech - so I won't pop it.

IBT:
Tyrana Settler - Library

(8)590BC:
The galley gets to the top of the map and discovers it doesn't wrap. :p
Decide to send a sword into Greece. Alex won't mind.

IBT:
Hattusas settler - settler

(9)570BC:
Found Hubishna - Library (But switch at appropriate time)
Found Alaca Huyuk - Library

(10)550BC:
Alex minded after all and we got kicked. Put the sword in Adana and switch to library.
Found Emar - Galley. This will obviously transport a settler to the 1 tile Wine island.

(11)530BC:
Take and extra turn because there are some units on goto that I need to catch.
Smyrna riots of course. It is obligatory for me to leave a rioting city for the next player. :p
Found Alalah - Library.

Our Nation
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-530BC.jpg

We need the wines on the one tile island before revolting to republic. It's OK if we don't have a harbor there since we can cash rush when anarchy ends. Without this lux Republic will be a pain. Our people will riot - a lot.

I would advise against temple builds. Libraries are better for us since they are 3cpt per 1gpt maintenance. We need some culture to protect against flips in the conquest phase. We also need to research a little quicker through the MA otherwise Sumeria will give us a problem. Later we will get them into a war with Egypt, and take them both out at the same time I imagine.

Good job 6 cities added since I played last. I think Tyranna should build the FP...anyone else think this is good? Also for wines, do we need to build a city right on top of the 1 tile island?

Lullaby can go next, then the order will be:

MeteorPunch
Hawklord
Mad-Bax
Lullaby

The map represents eastern mediterranean and middle east. Not many foreign shores to find (possibly Crete and Cyprus). Ships are of lesser use here.

Got it, btw.

Turn 0, 530 BC:
Switch Aleppo from granary to lib. We need to get in the furs asap.
Switch Hattusas from settler to spearman. Goal is to let it grow to size 4 . before building settlers again. We also need some military police here and there. Not optimal because Hattusas lacks barracks.
Switch Kadesh from courthouse to lib.
Switch Smyrna from spear to lib.

IBT: nothing

Turn 1, 510 BC:
The black sea galley isn't really of much use.
Set science to 90%, still +2 gpt, engineering due in 12

IBT:
Adrianople settler -> lib
Will move the settler towards the unsettled north east, trying to claim some gems there
Hattusha lib->worker, we are really low on workers
Egypt is building SunTzu

Turn 2, 490 BC:
Found Ivriz between Ugarit and Aleppo, production set to lib

IBT: Greeks are building Hanging Gardens

Turn 3, 470 BC:
nothing

IBT: GA ends

Turn 4, 450 BC:
nothing

IBT: nothing

Turn 5, 430 BC:
Hattusha worker -> worker

IBT: nothing

Turn 6, 410 BC:
Hattusas spearman -> settler

IBT: Babylonians are building SunTzu's

Turn 7, 390 BC:
nothing

IBT: nothing

Turn 8, 370 BC:
nothing

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 350 BC:
Lux set to 10% because Hattusas is now size 5. Science down to 80%.

IBT: nothing

Turn 10, 330 BC:
Ugarit lib -> spearman
Hattusha worker -> barracks
Founded Kanesh in the NE, will get gems after expansion, production set to lib.

Much to do right now. We need workers, culture, troops, settlers.
Aleppo has heavy happiness problems. Try to whip the lib.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_330_BC.SAV)

To be honest, I don't really like the map. the northwest and mesopotamia are really crowed, which already lead to the persians whiped out and the byzantines reduced to 1 city, while the whole east is empty. Putting in India instead of either the Byzantines or Greece and putting the starting positions farther apart even if this was not historically correct would have been better imho.

Got it.

Since GA is ended, should we go to Republic now?

WE need another lux connected really, but yes I would go to republic now.

Lets peel some workers off. We need another half dozen really quickly. Peel one off each town as its library completes.

For the next "phase" 2 things are important: workers and infrastructure. The only war I could see happening is finishing off the Byzantines or some foolish civ invading us. As soon as we get a nice stack of Med Inf & Pikeman restart the invasion campaigns (Greece doesn't have Iron :p ).

I'd like to clean up my backyard first, so Greece would be my next target. But it's quite a way until then.

As for Aleppo, pop rushing isn't possible right now, but growth there is extraordinary because someone irrigated the wheats instead of mining them. What we can do is change production to a cheaper building, pop rush that and switch back to lib.

sadly it's too late for Aleppo...it is a sad city.

330 revolt. 8-turn anarchy...ouch! :cry:
310 Egypt wants gold :sad:
290 Babylon want gold :sad:
270 Sumerians want gold :sad:
250 We discover Engineering
230 Trade Greeks Currency for wines We need to stick a town on that wine island before their culture expands...but I think we are too late.
210
190
170 Trade Engineering to Sumerians for Theology and 7 gold
150
130 Rush Galley in Emar

There will be a settler and Galley ready to go on the next turn for "Wine Island"

We are soon to discover Feudalism. Once we get those libraries built, we can get on the warpath again, right?

OK got it.
Can you want to edit the first post with the new rota MP cos it took me a while to find it Cheers :)

130BC 0
Happiness slider up to 20% costs 4gpt but increases output in cities.
Smyrna & Kadesh & Hubishna & Alaca Huyuk & Ivriz
Change from library to workers or spears. Policemen and workers are more useful at the moment. 30 to 50 turns for a library is too long.
Alalah library =>worker

110BC 1
Hattusha worker=>Trebuchet
Emar galley=>worker
Alalah worker=>worker
Ivriz worker=>spear
Smyra spear=.worker
All libraries changed to temples. Temples are cheaper, if we want to expand they are the best quickest ones to get.

AI
Egypt are building Knights Templar
Sumerians are building Sistine Chapel

90BC 2
Harran Temple=>Barracks
Ankuwa Temple=>spear
Kadesh spear=>temple
Alaca Huyuk spear=>worker
Karhuyuk founded on wine island set to build temple

AI Babs are building Knights Templar

70BC 3
Ugalit spear=>sword
Adana temple=>spear

AI Egypt building Sistine Chapel

50BC 4
Adrianapole temple=>spear
Tarsus Temple=>sword

30BC 5 Improvements

AI Greeks move settler towards our lands. :eek:

10BC 6
Hattussas temple=>Barracks
Sword from Adrianapole seals border. warrior from capitol sent to garrison Adrianapole

AI Greeks go away. :lol:

10AD 7
Alaca Huyak worker=>temple

30AD 8
Fudalism=>Chivalry
Tyrana temple=>pike
Kanesh worker=>temple

50AD 9 Emar worker=>temple

70AD 10
Hattussas barracks=>pike
Ugarit MI=>MI
Troops moving to Byzantine vicinity.

Mostly building stuff & workers. Quite a few cities expanded borders and some more are due to do so. Only one city left to connect. Well apart from Wine Island City (Karhuyuk).

We are behind 1/2 the other civs and I could get no deals at all. However we will soon have Chivalry in 12 less if you loose money and should be developing for war.

Take out the Byzantines :D

Not worth putting up a map.
Save below.

If I'm up I won't be able to play until Monday evening, so you won't get a new save till Tuesday morning.

70AD: Pre-turn
Since we are short of workers and want to go to war soon, I changed some builds to workers and others to barracks. The military builds were changed to chariot since they are fast units and have a longer upgrade path.
Aleppo, which is chronically unhappy was changed to settler to get the pop down.
Reduced the Science slider to make a little cash for hurrying a harbour and doing a few upgrades.

90AD:
Quiet

110AD:
Quiet

130AD:
Quiet

150AD:
Have to renew wines deal for Iron. :(

170AD:
Quiet again.

210AD:

230AD:

250AD:
Prepping for wars against Byzantine and Babylon.

260AD:
Declare war on Byzantine.

270AD:
Declare War on Babylon
Capture Varna from the Byzantines, but a settler escapes on a boat.
See a Babylonian Knight. Should be fun.

So we have 12 units about to take Eulbar. Then of course take Shurrapak, turning SW to take the city in the fog, Eridu and then Zariqum. Ashur should be taken last and razed. Not only is it a flip risk but it has the city defensive bonus. Better to replace it. Peace with Babylon then and fill some gaps with cities. We need to do this as the unit costs are killing us. The city build density is much lower than I am used to.

The first ring should now complete markets since we have 3 luxes. Harran needs to build a market after it competes its chariot this turn.
The second ring should build courthouses. Courthouses will increase our overall production by 30%. Forest chops may be used to hurry them up a bit.

The settler in Alaca will go NE to the tile SE of the row of 3 game, to claim the gems. I have left some workers in that area to road the tile.

We will have to make do with the workers we have at the moment, and we need to build settlers and increase the city density outside the core.

Babylon has not found it necessary to connect up their empire. They are therefore very vulnerable. I expect to take a couple of cities and a tech in the peace deal. Our chariots are perfectly adequate for this war.

Remember to road and irrigate all plains tiles in preference to other tiles.

No more defenders please.

Lack of rivers mean aqueducts will be necessary of course, but more importantly it will supress the research rate. I would not make a big thing about trying to get a tech lead in this game. We don't need navigation so the top of the MA tech tree is not required. Cavalry may be needed to deal with egypt, but the beakers required to get to MT may well be better spent short rushing knights.

Somehow we need to build more cities to get rid of unit support costs. Build density should be increased to reduce the need for aqueducts.

>>THE SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-270AD.SAV)

:bump:

Hello. Anyone Home?

We're waiting on Lullaby, maybe he's gone to sleep lisening to himself :lol:

Well he's up to his neck in a war, so I hope he wakes up before he plays.

Oops. Didn't realize it was my turn. :rolleyes:

I will play tonight.

Turn 0, 270 AD:
Change production in Karatepe to treb. This city won't get old, as it's placed on the furs, and furs give +1 shield in addition to gold bonus. Plus the city is placed much to close to Aleppo/Eulbar for my liking.

IBT: nothing

Turn 1, 280 AD:
Upgrade sword to MDI in Tyrana
Capture Eulbar losing 1 sword and 2 3MC
Kill wandering byzantinian warrior

Losses allow raising science funds to 20%, chiv now in 10 instead of 19

IBT: Byzantine dromon bombards our coast and lands a warrior

Turn 2, 290 AD:
Byzantine Warrior killed
Captured Surupak losing one reg 3MC, getting us 2 slaves

IBT: Egypt wants 4gp. Well, I have seen bigger demands

Turn 3, 300 AD:
consolidating gains, suppressing resistance
I still don't know why Aleppo has both wheats irrigated instead of mined

IBT: nothing

Turn 4, 310 AD:
Moving our main force west. There is an iron source there in babylonian borders. Hopefully it's the only one.

IBT: nothing

Turn 5, 320 AD:
Breaking up the attack on Elippi after losing 2 3MC without taking away a single hp off the defender
Science now up to 30% due to losses
Signign peace with the Byzantines for 11gp. We will have to wait for them building a new town.

IBT: nothing

Turn 6, 330 AD:
Found Kummanni in the NE to get gems in
Gather troops outside Elippi

IBT: nothing

Turn 7, 340 AD:
Capture Elippi without loss, getting us 1 slave
Science down to 20%, Chivalry still in 1
Babylonians speak with us, but won't give anything valuable for peace

IBT: Chivalry in, research set to Invention
Egypt trades Chivalry to everyone :(

Turn 8, 350 AD:
Found Malatya in the NE, on coast
Change production in core cities from markets to knights

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 360 AD:
nothing

IBT: nothing

Turn 10, 370 AD:
Captured Akkad (Iron) without loss
black borders at the south coast of Caspian Sea. It seems Persia has respawned. Hard to win by conquest with respawning opponents ;)
Science to 40%


The situation in mesopotamia:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_Hittites_370AD.jpg


The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_Hittites_370AD.SAV)

Babylon will give two minor towns far to the east for peace. No techs, no interesting cities.

My suggestion: use knights to squeeze Babylon hard. They should be down to a minor force after we are finished.
Validate that the dark borders in the ne, east of our ne settlements, are really the newly spawned Persians.

The wine harbor should be heavily flip endangered.

I starved the former babylonian cities down to size 1 if possible. Do so with the remaining resisters. This will help to avoid flips as soon as we have population superiority in these towns.

There is far too much irrigation done. I started mining some food bonus fields. This should be continued.

One greek settler is moving through our lands.

Some other things:

1. declaring war on the last turn of a turn set isn't quite optimal. The next player shouldn't be left in a situation that is choiceless.

2. Please do not leave troops/workers/settlers on goto when giving away your save.

Got it.

We're at war with the Babylons? Good job taking their lands. Should I also focus on Greece?

Also, do we have a FP?, if not, I'm gonna start one.

Persians got wiped out somehow... :confused:

@Lullaby: Our lands are all mountains and Hills. We need to Irrigate every spare tile we can. :confused:

We are in Republic, we don't need to mine grassland all of the time. We do not lose the bonus food due to government. A lot of our cities have hills for shields, in Republic it is often better for wheat to be irrigated for city growth. Alleppo needs the hills mined and it will be OK, though they were irrigated when we were in another government (not by me) I would leave them now and mine the hills instead.

Sorry for declaring war on the last turn, but it was the best time to do it. It has also opened the map out a lot. We can take out Greece next whilst expanding Eastward, and then we will be ready to take out Babylon properly.

The reason I slowed Chivalry was to give us a chance to build our UU in bulk and make some money for upgrades. What are we researching for now exactly? Not MT surely? The game will be over long before then. The only civ with power is Egypt and that should be fun with knights.

No rivers and no coast mean no gold. Research is a bad idea. We won't be able to support units.

I am stuck on the second turn and the only possible solution I can see with Babylon is peace+pulling back the 2MC's to be upgraded to knights. That little deal Miss Cleo struck with everyone(Chivalry) Allowed Babylon's shiny new knights to take one of our minor cities. There is no way we can take them with our 2MC's. Also, because they took this city it caused WW and 5 cities to riot.

Our biggest advantage (besides being smart humans :mischief: :p ), is our great productive territory. Once cities get to be 7-12 size taking advantage of the hills we will be very productive. The slider is a 30% to make happy with new WW :( .

You can take peace by all means. I never intended a war to remove them from the game. Just to push them back so that they didn't stifle our expansion. This has been done.

Babylon had knights at the start of the war.

See if they will give back the city for peace.

@Hawklord: They gave the city back. :lol:

370 changed a couple miners to irrigators,but left most of them
IT: Babylon has knights! Shuruppak is captured.
bad. I really don't like our situation. Most our 2MC's are down south away from barracks to be upgraded. Also on this turn, our citizens have begun to feel the sting of war and are rioting (WW)...I'm not sure what to do. Our 2MC's are no match vs Knights. I think I will get peace (and some cities, I hope) and pull the 2MC's back to be upgraded.
380 Try to get our core up to par with marketplaces. Building workers in Babylonian cities. I can see I'm not used to playing on emperor. I'm not used to being in a Republic government and being this corrupt.
390
400 Sumerians are working on JS Bach... :lol:
410 Egyptians are working on Copernicus...:lol: we are behind
Trade w/ Greece our Iron for their wines ends. Some cities are unhappy
420 Harbor is rushed in Wine Island.
Samuha founded
430
440
450 Trade Iron to Babylon for Gunpowder and 8 Gold. Hope they don't have revenge on their minds.
460
470

Notes:

- There is a settler and a knight headed to build a city by a cattle on AutoGoTo.
- The corruption is rediculous. I'm not really aware of corruption fighting strategies at Emperor level+ (Mad Bax help?). My strategy would be to stop building cities.
- Hattusus is building Knights Templar just for the heck of it. Nothing really useful to build other than wonders.
- Tyrana is building FP, but it will be awhile.
- @Everyone: I highly recommend CivAssist. I've been using it the past couple of days and it is very convenient. It lets you know when cities are rioting and when new trades become available,etc.

That's a got it, play soon.
Someone should have mentioned Civ assist it's easy to forget that some people havn't used it. You might want to look at CivReplay too. The mapstat bit is good for PBEM's Civ assist closes down everytime you move on in a pbem but mapstat is OK and stays open.

470AD 0
Happy slider up 10%
Changed courthouses to temples mainly. Rather expand territory as cheap as possible.

By the time the courthouses are built we will have a forbidden palace and it will be less useful. I don't really think you get a lot of use out of them when your cities are this small.
It looks like I should be peaceful until we have upgraded troops and filled in the land a bit.

IBT
Nippur Babylon finishes Knight Templar.

480AD 1
KnightsT changed to MoM.

490AD 2
Zzz

500AD 3
MofM built
Greeks founded city in My spot. Greeks really need to be the next target. They are closer to our core.

510AD 4
Zzzz

520AD 5
Yalbert founded in the best place near where they were.

530AD 6
Zzzz

540AD 7
Alaca Huyak produces settler

550AD 8
Zzzz

560AD 9
Zzzz

570AD 10
Katna founded

Mostly upgrading 3MC's as and when possible.
Roading from new cities to improve communications and city production.
Replacing some defense in empty cities.
Finishing off building improvements and MMing cities.
Connected Saltpetre so we can build muskets.
Reinforcing our outlying cities with upgraded 3MC's.

Very peaceful very boring but necessary.

Only real thing of note:

I'd say that we need to build more military and wait until the FP is finished to give us that extra production, by that time we should be able to take out the Greeks or whoever.

The save is now too big to upload without zipping it up so it is a zip file.
Save is here:

Well, MadBax is/was up. If Lullaby wants to go he can. If neither get it, I'll play tomorrow.

Sorry, not sure how I missed it. Unfortunately, over the Easter weekend I will be unable to play. Sorry. I can Play Tuesday.

- The corruption is rediculous. I'm not really aware of corruption fighting strategies at Emperor level+ (Mad Bax help?)

Build courthouses. :)
Short rush stuff.
We need gold multiplication improvements. Markets an banks.
We need more luxes. Have we got the gems hooked up yet?

Corruption appears bad because of the map. No rivers, no coast. Need roads and rails everywhere - though I really hope it will be over by rails.

Building an FP is quite a good thing. I once started it, someone changed it though. It can be a good tactic to try to get a leader through excessive warmongering and rush the fp. But as we aren't militaristic and have no elite knights ready I'd rather build it the usual way.

We could think about min runs on science to get money for short rushing courts. We won't get many techs eny more anyway if we think about conquest.

though I really hope it will be over by rails.

Me too. I actually wanted to slow down the tech rate as we are *ancient* civs, but I thought I would mess something up.

If we can actually get our land up and running there should be no problem mowing everyone down with Cavs.

@Lullaby: is that a "got it?"

Nope, isn't. Ain't got time tomorrow.

I played :D

570 Changed a bunch of build orders. Mainly to marketplaces,libraries, and aquaducts.
Decided to starve Ellipi and Akkad to 1.
580
590
600
610
620
630 Metallurgy
640
650 Katna founded
660
670 Forbidden Palace completed (finally...)
Trade Iron to Babylon for Theology,Military Tradition,Territory Map,Spices,12 Gold

Notes:
- It is up to the next person to continue solidifying our core infrastructure (Marketplaces and Aquaducts. Libraries? and start to build the great Cavalry army.
- Many of our neighbors lack important strategic resources. Keep in mind which resources are good for which units.
- If I remember correctly, Greece doesn't have Iron,Saltpeter, or Horses. They might be defending with Spearmen... ;)
- Can Republic handle our soon to be aggressive ways? Is there a way to make Greece declare on us first?
- Should we turn science off?

Hawklord is up. You can play or skip to Mad Bax.

- If I remember correctly, Greece doesn't have Iron,Saltpeter, or Horses. They might be defending with Spearmen...

Hoplites are more propable ;).

Republic is quite acceptable until communism.

OK got it will play soon

670AD 0
Upgrade some knight to cav

IBT Sumaria threatens us for Dyes. Up yours Gilgamesh. A bit posturing but he backs down.
Thebes builds JSBachs

680AD 1 Change some cities builds.
Upgrade some knights.

690AD 2
Zzzz

700AD 3
Zzzz

IBT
Education =>Banking

710AD 4
Kultepe founded

720AD 5
Build up forces on Greek front.

730AD 6
Build up forces on Greek front.

740AD 7
Declare War on Greece

Constantinoble captured
Delphi captured

750AD 8
Attack Corinth Hopolite killed

760AD 9
Thessolonica holds out against cav.

Corinth captured
Argos captured

770AD 10
Almost capture Pharsolos
Starving Greek cities.

Greeks have no defence against cavalry. We can get rid of most of them except for 1 tile islands. It may be worth making peace at some time and getting those cities that way.

We are very backward. We need to start trading. GPT is better, but the Egyptians and Sumerians look like they may need a lot of units to kill. We need to build a LOT more cavalry. 100 minimum. We can short rush them. Babylon must be conquered immediately.

Not getting Egypt and Sumeria in a war has been a costly mistake. We should put that right very soon.

Please use Tax men in captured cities you are starving instead of clowns. Please rush settlers from those cities to increase the number of cities and reduce unit maintenance. Please don't build muskets. They don't have a job.

The Greek one tile cities will need to be starved down to size 1 in order to get them in a peace deal. It's not going to happen. We need Amph Warfare now.

Tougher game than I thought, but it's all over. The AI just don't know it yet.

Muskets have a job it's called defense. The AI will attack us if we have too many undefended cities. Especially ones on our borders.
We can take out most of the Greeks and have more productive cities on that side as it's closer to our capitol.

Our only real threat IMO is Babylon. Greek is not and Egypt/Sumeria are too far away to care. Here's why Muskets are a waste:

Cavalry
6.3.3 = 80 shield

Muskets
2.4.1 = 60 shield

Muskets get +1 defence, that's it. For just 20 shields more we can build the cavs which can move 3 (9 road spaces), fast enough to defend any borders quickly. More Cavalry will mean Greece is gone faster, which means Babylon will be gone faster too.

Now if one of our border cities had something important (a wonder), I would definitely put a couple Muskets guarding it.

I have played 4 turns, but then had a small family crisis and had to stop for the evening. I will complete the turns tonight.

We are at peace with the Greeks and have their 1 tile island. We are nearly at tech parity, only lacking Physics, and we now have a full world map. I am building Cavalry in the core and courthouses in the outer cities. We are preparing for a bloody war vs Babylon.

No big surprises yet. :)

Sorry it's late, but it was just one of those things.

>>THE SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP-880AD.SAV)

(0) 770AD Pre-turn
Buy Economics from Egypt for 34gpt + 15g + WM
Buy Astronomy from Babylon for Economics + WM + 60g
World Maps are too expensive for my tastes. The big three are up every tech we can see.

Decide to self-research Physics in 6 turns.

(1) 780AD:
Capture Pharsalos
Decide to make peace with Greece to get their one tile island and catch up in Tech. I want to go after Babylon anyway. The Greeks are gassed anyway
Give Greece Chemistry. Economics, Dyes + furs for Navigation, PP and WM.


IBT: Huge Wonder Cascade

(2) 790AD:

(3) 800AD:

(4) 810AD:
Cavalry count up to 14. :(
Not enough yet.


(5) 820AD:

(6) 830AD:
Learn Physics research Magnetism.

(7) 840AD:

(8) 850AD:
Built a new city to Steal Babylonian Salt.

(9) 860AD:
Babylian deal expires next turn.

(10) 870AD:
Cancel deal with Babylon. Well here I am again. All dressed up and nowhere to go. I need to declare war right now.

Take Ashur without loss.
Take Sippur without loss.

Trade iron to Arabia for Incense and Change.
Trade Salt and Dyes to Sumeria for Spices, Magnetism and Change.

I have a tough decision to make.
I can reach Nineveh and Uruk next turn, but only have 15 cavalry available for the attack. Uruk has a musket as its top defender and I assume Nineveh has too. Question is, how many in each city. Do I split the force and attempt to take out both cities or go for safety and only take on Uruk?

(11) 880AD:
Take Uruk for the loss of 1 cavalry. It had a drafted conscript rifle in it. :eek:

Took Nineveh with 3 rifles and a spear for the loss of 1 cavalry. We now own Leos.


There I leave it. The Babylonians are dead, pretty much. Babylon needs to be captured and will probably require a minimum of 15 Cavalry to take. This is because it is the capital and also it contains 2 wonders (Pyramids and Oracle). Despite the Oracle having expired, the AI will definitely defend it. Nineveh had 3 rifles and a spear. It wouldn't surprise me if Babylon had 6 rifles in it.

Gaining the Pyramids will be a great boost to our empire. (Don't forget to sell any granaries we have ;) )

Good luck to the next up. Don't feel obliged to take on Babylon next turn. Wait a couple of turns to get a good stack together - that's fine. Then just mop up the other towns (which cannot draft) and take peace when war weariness sets in. Since we are behind in tech, it would be a good idea to buy ToG from Egypt before making peace. This will get us to the IA and we will be able to pointy stick IA techs from Babylon. We can take their remaining cities by force in 20 turns. :)

Don't do any deals with Sumaria. We will be killing them soon and we may aswell keep our rep in tact until the obligatory and massive ROP rape on Egypt. Should be fun. :D


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP-880AD.SAV

Nice stomping there, Max. I've never really done big gpt deals like that and it's probably something I should learn for higher levels.

I looked at the save and here are a couple things: Greece has Sun Tzu in Athens and I think they're still defended by Hoplites. It might be worth a little trip over there to capture so our Cavs can heal in 1 turn in newly captured cities. Second, I don't think I'd take Babylon yet. If we do their capitol will probably move to Samarra and they'll have a more productive core than they do now. ...or just take it and get the pyramids :evil: .

Will get it and play it tonight. Seems pretty good so far.

Turn 0, 880 AD:
1. I initialize starving all newly conquered cities to size 1.
2. Change builds from libs to military or harbor or markets in some cities.
3. Some greece settler/hoplite pairs are wandering through our lands, passing by some undefended cities! I cut off the land bridge at Constantinople with a warrior.
4. MM cities to optimize production time.

IBT: minor counterattacks
Tyrana cav -> market

Turn 1, 890 AD:
Dropped Lux to 0% at the cost of 1 taxman in Aleppo
Science to 70%, ToG in 3, still +61 gpt
Troop movements to the south

IBT: Pharsalos flipped to Greece
Kish finishes Smith's

Turn 2, 900 AD:
Troop movements to the south

IBT: Egypt finishes Shakespear

Turn 3, 910 AD:
Troop movements to the south

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 920 AD:
Troop movements to the south

IBT: nothing special

Turn 5, 930 AD:
ToG in, research steam power at 80%
Troop movments to the south
Newly built cavs move west

IBT: Ashur flipped to Babylon

Turn 6, 940 AD:
Capture Babylon losing 2 Cavs
Capture Eridu without loss
Capture Ashur losing 1 Elite Cav
Capture Zariqum without losing 1 Cav

IBT: Babs destroy Larsa, some village to the far far east. We did we have it? I usually gift those towns away.

The new Bab capital is Samarra

Babs still won't give Nationalism for peace, just some minor cities. I decide to attack for two more turns to take one of their core cities.

Turn 7, 950 AD:

Continue starving the former Bab cities. Man, are these cities large.
One turn of rest and suppressing resistance for the troops.

IBT: We beginn suffering from war weariness

Turn 8, 960 AD:
This will definitely be the last war turn.

Capturing Nippur losing 2 Cavs, getting Knight's Templar
Make peace for 3 cities and 22 gp. Best I could get.
Build embassies in Sumer and Thebes.
Sold some granaries.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 9, 970 AD:
Found new Tarsus in a gap in the former Babylonian area.
Hurried temple in Yalburt, Akkad, Ellipi, Shurrupak, Samuha.
Sell wines, furs, dhyes, gems and iron to babs for50gp, 42 gpt and world map. They wouldn't pay more gpt.
Sell furs to Sumeria for 20 gp and 13 gpt.
Science to 50% to get steam power in in 5 instead fo 4, +270 gpt.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 10, 980 AD:
Science to 60%, steam power in 4, +224 gpt
Hurried temple in Babylon

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_Hitites_980_AD.SAV)

Suggestions:

Steam power should have max priority. We have a huge worker force that can quickly rail the core and drastically increase our production.

Meanwhile starve all cities that have more than one foreign people in them down. Keep starving them to reduce flip riscs.

After that we should turn down research to 30% or so and use the money to hurry first temples and second courts in the conquered Bab cities to prevent them flipping back. The units should stay there for some turns until these buildings are bought.

Greece must be our next target. We really want Sun Tsu. Throw them off the continent, reducing them to the one island city they have.

We should beeline for replacable parts, making our workers even stronger and allowing for artillery/infantry. Communism could be a choice though. We have far more than the optimal number of cities.

The warrior at the lanfd bridge by Constantinople should stay there to prevent greek settlers from voluntarily wandering our lands.

Got it. I'll see if I can do anything about Greece.

Well played. My only comment is that the Sumeria deal commits us to 20 turns of peace, for just 13g. If it had been a straight up gpt deal then we could cancel it at any time for no loss of rep and declare war.

So maybe the Greeks can be finished off now. The cities at the top edge of the map are a pain to pick, and I hate that about maps with no polar caps. Then we can do the Byzantines (despite the distance) and then Sumaria.

Completely agree on steam.

Sorry about not keeping the land bridge blocked. The Greeks will not attack us, but if we attack them then we could have lost a core city for a turn. :blush:

My only comment is that the Sumeria deal commits us to 20 turns of peace, for just 13g. If it had been a straight up gpt deal then we could cancel it at any time for no loss of rep and declare war.

I must admit I wasn't aware of the possibility to cancel pure gpt deals without rep loss. But we will need 20 turns to move a considerable force to the nw, capture Athens and then move the force south to get into position for an attack on Sumeria.

When attacking Greece, keep the cities, but also keep starving them! They still have higher culture.

I'd not keep any sumerian cities. Raze all of them, flip risks are very high. maybe keep cities with interesting wonders, but I don't see many.

Sell barracks after capturing Athens.

I'm with you on steam. We need communication rail system (all cities connected) first so that we can move troops quickly before railing up the core.

980 Prepared for Greeks.
990 Declare on Greece. Capture Pharsalos. Capture Thermoplyae (Great Lighthouse...woohoo!).
1000 IT: Discover Steam. 2 candidate for Iron Works Ivriz and Akkad. Akkad is too far away and Ivriz is size 3, max is is 5 or 6...I don't build it..
1010
1020
1030 Capture Thessalonica.
1040 Athens captured. Mycenae captured.
1050
1060 IT: Thermoplyae flips.
1070 Ephasus captured. Knossos captured.
1080 Thermoplyae recaptured. Greeks are no more.

- Some of our core cities didn't have Libraries which is plain wrong. some are building them now.
- the workers are just getting coordinated in building railroads and need help :)
- a few core factories started.
- There are already some Cavs near the Byzantines. I think we just need about 5 more (they have spearmen :eek: ).
- Revolt to communism would be good.
- I haven't been MM (at all :mischief: ) so we still need to sell barracks :blush:
- I started some trade deal w/ Sumeria because I thought the Byz were the next target. If you look at the save, we could easily take out the Byz then the Babs.

Got it will play later.
Has the effect of courthouses been made better in C3C. I've found that the effect of them is almost useless in smaller cities and only becomes useful when the cities grow large enough. So it is not a lot of good building them in small outlying cities where they take forever and a day to build and have very little effect until the city gets much bigger.

1080AD 0 150g for sale of barracks

1090AD 1 Shifting troops North

1100AD 2 to 1130AD 5 Moving troops

1140AD 6
Declare war on Byzantines
Sardica captured along with 1 worker. 2 spears killed.
Trebizond captured. 2 spears killed.
Septum destroyed
Dyrachium destroyed

IBT. Wierd A Byzantium galley just attacked us in the Greek sea, it must have been there a long time.

1150AD 7
Chalcedon captured
Heraclea captured + worker

THere is another Byzantine city somewhere and I can't see it.

1160AD 8 Railroading

Trade WM + Nationalism for iron and horses.

1170AD 9 Railroading

IBT Babylonian trades have ended, they needed us a lot. So war is possible with them.

1180AD 10 Railroading.
The Byzantines won't talk to us and I still can't see them. We should send a cavalry over the water for a look around. Traded map with Egypt to try and find them, maybe there is a settler somewhere. Anyway riflemen and the ability to conscript will be useful soon enough.

I suppose Babylon should be next though Summeria is heading out East and almost keeping pace with us in size. They are all fairly small cities and we should be able to steamroll them when the time comes.

Anyway onward to the next player and the team.

Seems that Mad-Bax is up.

Me again already? Ouch.

OK I'll play tomorrow night.

>>THE SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-1265_AD.SAV)

(0) 1180AD: Pre-turn
Well, not much to say really. It all looks pretty good. I spent some gold to short rush a couple of factories, so they can go back to unit production. I'll try to finish off the Byzantines and start war with the Babylonians again.

(1) 1190AD:
Declare war on Babylon.
Capture Zamua.

(2)
Capture Korsabad

(3) 1210AD:
Capture Samarra the Babylonian Capital
Capture Carchemish
Capture LArsa

(4)
Capture Mari and generate a leader. Cavalry Army.
Capture Ebla

IBT: Learn RP research Corporation in 5.
I guess we go for tanks.

(5)
Generate an SGL
First stage War Weariness kicks in. Raise lux
Game crashes. Reload.
Capture Adab.

Trade Industrialisation to Egypt for Medicine and change.
Switch Research to Scientific Method.

(6) 1240AD:
Capture Naiassus from Byzantines and they are destroyed.
Babylon still won't talk to us. Never mind. A few more cities then.

(7) 1250AD:
Capture Karana. Begin to mass troops for Sumerian war. I won't declare on my turn though. ;)

(8) 1255AD:
Capture Telloh.
Can't see the Babylonian capital unfortunately. Will need a Tmap in the peace deal.

(9)1260AD:
Trade Arabia horses and physics for incense. :eek: Didn't give them iron since there is a small chance we can deal with them before they get Nationalism. Found the Babylonian capital will send 6 cavalry there.

(10) 1265AD:
Captured Nina.
Tidied up a bit.

After turn report.

1. Our SGL is in Uruk ready to build TOE next turn. Normally I would take Atomic theory and Electronics as they are by far the most expensive. Alternatively though we could take The Corporation and refining so that we can see oil. Another option is to wait a bit and research the corporation and take Refining and steel. Motorised Transport will shorten the upcoming wars a lot. It's up to you.

2. There are a couple of galleons on auto to the Babylonian capital. I thought they were caravels and so I only put 3 units in each. :blush:
There is a frigate there already. Move in with the frigate and bombard, then move out onto the fish tile to deprive the babylonians of that tile.

3. The war against Sumeria will be tricky. We don't have enough units at the moment. We need to wait 9 turns for the furs deal to expire anyway. Use those turns to build cavalry. Tanks are close enough that we don't have to worry about arty too much, but it would be useful to get a stack of around 25 together.

4. When declaring on the Sumerians, ally the Arabs and the Egyptians in on our side. This will divide the Sumerian troops and weaken all three nations. If we have to break the deal because of war weariness then so be it. It is past the point that it matters.

5. It is important that we take out the Sumerian core first. It will be very expensive in terms of lost cavalry, but we just have to grin and bear it I'm afraid. Lux will be at 40% after about ten turns of war. We may have to take the Sumerians in two bites, they just have so many cities.

6. We could do with some more workers. I would research at about 70% and use the excess gold to rush some temples. Those towns can then peel off a few workers to rail the hilly areas.

Turn 0, 1265 AD:
We are totally overfed. Far too much food nearly anywhere. I'm quite sure I mined some tiles to prevent this, but this has been undone and with all the rails it's getting worse. We could have many more shields in the core with more tiles mined. 10 surplus food and no growth possible is simply a gigantic waste of production power.

Carchemish has a resistor and no units to quell him.

Did some mming for about an hour or so.

Called my mother. She's got a birthday and will get furious if I forget (which I did most of the time). You would think she gets kind of used to it, but no. Instead I remember her birthday after being told to once to often. Welcome to conditioning.

Some more mming.

Lower lux to 10%. 2 new specialists needed. Net income raised by about 60 gpt.

Change production to factories in a number of cities, to courts in others.

IBT:
Scientific method is in. Research set to corporation.
Niniveh worker -> ToE

Turn 1, 1270 AD:
Science set to 0.
Hurry temples in Zariqum, Sippar, Uruk, Nippur and Nimrud.
Rush ToE in Niniveh.
Captured New Elippi losing 1 elite cav.

One galleon was on auto move and is now exposed. Hope it doesn't get attacked.

IBT:
Niniveh ToE -> settler
Corporation and refining in, research set to steel

Turn 2, 1275 AD:
We have oil near trepizund, but it needs to get hooked up.
Steel due in 7 at 70%, +33 gpt
Trade SciMeth to Gilgamesh for communism, music theory, world map and all of his gold (1)

IBT: nothing special

Turn 3, 1280 AD:
Hurried temples in Zamua and Samarra.
Destroyed new Ashur
Captured the babylonian capital Izibia.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 1285 AD:
destroyed the babylonian capital new Babylon

IBT:
Babs want peace. Won't pay anything though.

Turn 5, 1290 AD:
nothing special

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 6, 1295 AD:
Suffrage done. Lower lux to 0, science to 80, steel in 2 instead of 3.
Hattusas goes for Heroic Epic. More happiness to counteract ww.

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 7, 1300 AD:
found new Ugarit
Babs are history

------------------------------------------------------------------

I stopped at this point because we are at peace now and have an important decision to make: switch to communism or not.

I have absolutely no experience with communism and simply don't know which size and structure an empire must have for communism to pay off. So I let others decide.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP02_1300_AD.SAV)

I will do some calculation with the save to show the difference by switching to communism.

Yes we are overfed. I prioritised railing over mining however. 30 workers is half what I would like to have even counting slaves.

Got it. I'm generally a big fan of switching to communism. I wouldn't switch though if there's still some wonders or scientific research or builds that need attending to.

I'll post and play tonight.

Well, I played 7 turns and time for another strategy session:

1300 Traded our Territory map for Sumerian World Map. I wanted to see how "railroaded" he is. They have about 3 railroaded tiles per city right now - not much.
- who said there's no democracy in the middle east? Sumeria,Egypt,and Arabia are all Democracies :lol:
- we still have 2 turns on a trade deal with Sumeria.

About war...we have 60 Cavalry. My initial thought was that we definitely need some Artillary stacks to beat their Infantry. Cavalry tend to die vs infantry. upon investigating their smaller towns and cities however, they are defended by Enkidu's and Riflemen, and....they are bankrupt! If we kill a few towns they Democratic people will become angry and they'll have to revolt (which will only take a couple turns).

Communism would be too nice though. We will be getting tanks soon, and from there on, it is war time. I'm stopping cavalry production to corruption prevention (courthouses, police stations), revolt.

1305 Revolt, 6 turns.
1310 IT: trade deal ends w/ Sumeria
1315 IT: trade Egypt horses for Espionage (for Secret HQ) and World Map. She wanted Iron, but without Iron, they can't build factories or railroads.
1320 IT: Gilgamesh demands wines! I tell him goodbye, risking war (which I kind of wanted), and nothing happens, *sigh*
1325
1330
1335 Emerge from Anarchy into communism. change Hattusus to Military Academy.



- I think Akkad should be the site for Iron Works and Secret Police HQ. It's location is insanely productive, but we might finish they game before it gets built here :( .
- Hoover Dam? I think a palace prebuild should be started, but we still need about 4-5 more techs. We are going for motorized transportation, then back to hoover dam.
- Razing cities? I made a little map here:http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hittite_map.gif

basically, it might be worth razing some cities so we can defeat the enemies without worrying about flipping. It's kinda sloppy, but it works.

- Military Alliances? I think Mad Bax said we should ally with someone vs Sumeria. Basically, it would weaken both civs to make it easier on us.
- The whole reason for this post: should we attack the strongest cities first, or the weak ones? Our Cavs are still in place to go for the stronger, mostly.

- Here is my sneaky Cav pillager, don't forget about him!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/pillager.gif

and the save: (removed)

I'd say that we should take out the cities in the middle to cut off supply routes. Get the other civs involved if we can. The core cities would be a harder target but strategically better.
We are still quite a way off tanks.

I'd say that we should take out the cities in the middle to cut off supply routes. Get the other civs involved if we can. The core cities would be a harder target but strategically better.
We are still quite a way off tanks.

That's a cool idea. We'd only need to take out 1-3 cities to chop their territory in 2 parts.

Tanks: I think every city that can *potentially* build tanks should be building whatever is necessary to build them faster, ie: factories,courthouses, etc (production boosters).

I've got the save but will wait to hear what the knowledgable advisors think we should do before playing :) I take it it is my turn or are you going to finish off up to your ten?

I'd say raze every city but those that hold interesting wonders. Workers do us much more good than totally corrupt new cities full of resistors to be quelled. Slaves will help us more in speeding up our railing/mining activities.

No other advice needed as I see it.

I'd say raze every city but those that hold interesting wonders. Workers do us much more good than totally corrupt new cities full of resistors to be quelled. Slaves will help us more in speeding up our railing/mining activities.

No other advice needed as I see it.
That is probably good as Sumeria will have culture flip problems.

I've got the save but will wait to hear what the knowledgable advisors think we should do before playing :) I take it it is my turn or are you going to finish off up to your ten?

Your go...

I am away for the weekend and won't play my next turnset until monday night.

I'm fine with waiting a while to play. This game will be over in ~50 turns. I just started a new SG today and any of you are welcome to join. It might be tougher than it looks...see my sig.

1335AD 0
Conscripted some infantry to defend border towns. This helped reduce unhappiness in larger cities and released cavalry for offensive action.
MPP with Egypt and Arabia

Trades
Arabia
Democracy +2g for iron

Egypt
World Map, 15gpt +20g for wines
9gpt + 3g for furs
Sanitation, Free Artistry for Iron

OK that's roped in everybody on our side.

IBT
Hindana goes over to the Summerians

1340AD 1
War declared on Summeria
Sumer captured lost 1 cav Temple of Artemis
City next to Karana destroyed. Leader created.
Der destroyed

IBT
Lots of archers but little else moving around.

1345 AD 2
Agade captured
Leader Hattusillis created in mopping up riflemen outside city.
Lagash captured Newton's Uni
1st Summarian cavalry encountered and destroyed
Leader created outside Nimrud

IBT
Egypt and Arabia declare war on Summaria

1350AD 3
Kuara captured along with artillery
Secret Police HQ hurried in Uruk
Isin destroyed

IBT
Sumer reverts

1355AD 4
Sumer recaptured
Ur captured. Lost 2 cav
Sumerian capitol moved to Babil

Uma captured great library

IBT A few cav killed

1360AD 5
Troop movements

IBT
Arabian deal ends

1365AD 6
Arabia
Trade Incense for Wines, Furs, Horses and Dyes.
Erech captured

1370AD 7
Kish captured Smiths Trading Company
Leader Anitta created
Nagsu captured
Bad-tibira captured

IBT
Zabalan reverts

1375AD 8
New Lagash Captured
Zabalam recaptured

1380AD 9
Kutha captured
Kua captured
1385 10 Troop movements

The Sumarians are weak and have put up little resistance so far. I have seen few cavalry. If we keep going we should be able to finish them off before we get too much trouble with flipping. We have quite a few armies now.

Wow, good job of routing there Hawklord! And, 3 GL's!! :eek:

Did those conscripts come from our main cities?? Since some of them are stuck at size 12 that might be a valid tactic. I honestly never conscript, but it's something I need to learn about doing.

Well some of them did but conscripting from cities where the population are balanced as in 4 happy 4 unhappy usually leaves 4 happy 3 unhappy or sometimes conscript twice to leave 3 happy 3 unhappy if the first one does not work. It keeps population down to a managable level but there is a cost if you do it too often. The population just goes into unhappy after a while once they get too big so conscripting can be helpfull sometimes.

I gues I'm up. Will play tomorrow evening. I should be able to post tomorrow evening too assuming I can get net access from the hotel. We'll see. :)

I had a few problems with the game crashing which meant repeating turns a few times. I couldn't get all ten done, so I just stopped at the most appropriate point.

1385AD: Pre-turn
Cycled through all the cities. Changed a few builds, but not many. Some of the starving cities were switched to worker, and a couple of other changes. Nothing significant.

IBT:
New Lagash was re-taken by Sumaria.

1390AD:
All the Egyptian troops running through our land are going after Sumaria. I am not worried by them ATM.

Capture New Lagash, Dabrum, Tutub (generating a leader), Kissura, Babul (razed for 5 slaves)

IBT:
Egypt and Sumeria sign peace.

1395AD:
Capture Anshan, New Kisurra, New Umma, New Katallu, New Kish,

IBT:
Sumeria and Arabia Sign Peace.
Umma flips back to Sumaria.

1400AD:
Capture New Zabalam, New Agade, New Isin, New Akshak, Umma, and civ crashes. Half an hours work lost. :mad:

Reload: Capture New Zabalam, New Agade, New Isin, New Akshak, Umma, Susa, New Ur, New Der, New Erech.

IBT:
Learn Mass Production, Research Motorised Transportation.
Complete Heroic Epic
Egypt and Arabs declare war on the Sumerians. Yeah right.. 2 cities left.

1405AD:
Capture Marad and New Bad-tibira and the Sumarians are dead Do some MMing and civ crashes again. Seems to be every time I reassign a scientist.

IBT:
Intelligence agency is built.

1410AD:
Decide to leave it here with all movement left. Fed up with the crashes anyway. However, we have lots of turns left on deals with Egypt and Arabia. Do we want to honour them or not? If not then we can ROP rape Arabia with cavalry whilst building tanks for Egypt. Otherwise we can wait 5 turns and go for Egypt. We could wait longer if you like to build more tanks.

Save and screenshot to follow.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2MB2.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-1410_AD.SAV

Nice job :) Funny about the crashes it was OK in my turn. Maybe it's because the save is getting bigger with all of the cities you captured. :D

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2-1410_AD.SAV)

Edit: Cut and pasted the link from mb's post here.

Sorry you had some problems there, MB. I really didn't expect you to clear out the Sumerians so fast :goodjob: .

Looks like we still have alliances with Arabia and Egypt for 5 more turns. I would take 5 turns to move units to take Arabia once the deal runs out, and have an alliance and rop w/ egypt. Once arabia's gone, use a little rop abuse to take out egypt.

I think we have 11 turns left on a silks deal with Arabia. We can't wait that long IMO. This is why Egypt may be better. If things go badly they could get tanks before the end. I know it will be expensive, but I don't think they have rubber - so no infantry.

Also I know it's a pain but there are silks to the East of the continent. If we can string some workers out there to road to them and build a colony it will help happiness by 4 happy faces per city with market. I was too busy railing to the new Eastern towns and then down to Arabia.

Turn 0, 1410 AD:
Moved troops to egyptian border
Changed some builds in productive coastal sites to battleships and in one to transport.
Change production in Hattusas from bank to cav. We don't need to research anything after mot transport, so we can go 0% science from then on.

IBT: nothing

Turn 1, 1415 AD:
Poprushed some stuff

IBT: nothing

Turn 2, 1420 AD:
nothing

IBT: mot transport in, flight in 7 at 70%

Turn 3, 1425 AD:
Change military production to tanks

IBT:...

Turn 4, 1430 AD:
...

IBT...

Turn 5, 1435 AD:
We are going to reduce Egypt to sand and mud.

I will raze the cities. MM is too much right now. I don't see any reasing to stretch this game any longer.

Razed 5 cities.

IBT: nothing

Turn 6, 1440 AD:
One more city razed

IBT: nothing

Turn 7, 1445 AD:
stopped assigning new actions to free workers. Even so my play time will be around 5 hours.

Capture Thebes, egypt capital, along with Bach's Cathedral
Don't raze it because the wonder might be useful.

IBT: nothing

Turn 8, 1450 AD:
Capture the egyptian capital Heliopolis alog with Shakespeare's
Raze Elephantine
Raze Abydos

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 1455 AD:
Raze El Amarna
Raze Hieraconpolis
Raze Pi-Ramesses
Capture Memphis and Sistine Chapel
Capture egypt capital Alexandria including Copernicus
Raze Cairo
Raze Bubastis

IBT: Flight in, research set to atomic theory

Turn 10, 1460 AD:
Raze El Ashmunein
Raze Busiris
Raze Lisht
Raze Byblos

With all those cities that will never finish any production I really see no use for all the worker turns and keeping even more cities.

Egypt is pretty much done. The next player should declare in Arabia on this turn. This might be over before he is done with his turnset.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MP2_1460_AD.SAV)

Got it. I'll probably raze a city or two :mischief: .

1460 everything seems good to dropkick the ai, lullaby.
1465 - Pithom captured. Buto razed. Kahun razed. Tanis razed. Sebennytus razed. New Thebes razed. Buhen razed. New Memphis razed. Edfu razed. Oryx razed. :egypt: is gone.
- Spy planted in Mecca. The Arabs best defenders are 7 musketmen, which is sad.
- Let the massacre begin...I trade world map :)
- Leader/Army created.
- Basra razed. Anjar razed. Najran razed. Muscat destroyed.
- All workers: shift-A
- Cavalries are actually much better than tanks now because of movement, whouda thunk?
1470 - Fustat razed. Aden razed. Medina razed. Bayt Ras destroyed. Baghdad razed. Shiraz razed.
1475 - Khurasan razed. Bukhara destroyed. Mecca (Great Wall, incense) captured. Mansura razed. Yamama razed. Fez razed. Merw razed. Mosul razed. Balkh destroyed. Damascus razed.
- They have one city left, so rest of turn skipped.
1480 - whoops, they had 2 cities. Kufah razed. Aydab razed. turn skipped to see scores.

conquest 46h 42m 8s :king:
score 6176

Thanks to everyone for playing - you are all good players, and I wouldn't mind playing again sometime. I'm sorry the map wasn't even in terms of resources for AI's - I didn't make the map and I never considered to check.

@Mad Bax - looking forward to sgotm7 :scan:

Here's the last save if anyone wants it:

Well done MP. We really trashed them in the end. :D
Never ceases to amaze me how the AI fall over once the tipping point is reached. I hope they fix that for Civ4.

SGOTM7 is an AWD (But winnable ;) )

I expect you all to join. :)

I can't wait. I'll be joining team noob :D .

Good game. It was a gas.