Bez1-Sid Rising. Ruling? [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

ThERat

Mar 19, 2005, 11:49 PM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1_1250BC.SAV)

Pre-turn
up lux, reduce science, philo still in 3

1.1475BC
MM London so we get settler in 2 growth in 2

2.1450BC
nobody has philo, our slingshot might pay, we need to get back into trading game badly

IT :eek: an Incan warrior drops next to Nottingham, we get philo, select classical education
next tech will be decided after tech brokering
London, settler -> warrior
Sheeptown slave market -> forge since it is at 9spt at the moment

3.1425BC
there are some Civ's that have philo as well now
brokering 1st:
Naval warfare, CoL, Maths and 50g for Classical education from Siam
Bronze Working for Philo from Rome
Construction for CoL and Maths from Rome
Aristocracy for Philo from Arabs
Civil Engineering and 30g for Philo and Maths from Polynesia
Polytheism and 150g for Classical Education and CoL from Celts
Trade and 10g for Polytheism from Siam

that's it, no more techs out there, but a lot of money
Classical Edu and Trade to Polynesia for 579g and 9gpt (all they have)
CoL, Maths and Naval War for 333g and 1gpt from Arabs
Naval war and Trade to Celts for 260g
Siam is rich, the rest broke and we have 1422g in the kitty

Siam warrior next door makes we wonder whether they will really attack, not worried about that unit
but they might pull in a lot of others (lucky they can't in RaR at this stage. it dawns to me later)

we have some rich land here, 3 tea next to Nottingham and 1 north. settler heads north to coast
set reseach to poetry since they tend to ignore it

IT the expected happens
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11425.jpg

their 1 attack unit manages to beat our warrior

4.1400BC
pull a spear to Nottingham now covered by 2 warrior

IT :mad: they beat another warrior losing 1 hp only

5.1375BC
spear arrives and our warrior take out that demonic unit

6.1350BC
Celts know democracy, we could get it for 1000g, but there are no othr trades available, leave it for now

IT Persia and Siam sign trade embargo, better than war
London gets a european spear, now making 14 spt, set it academy for the time being

7.1325BC
found Canterbury in the north to claim tea, next settler south

8.1300BC
since we can mine we need more workers, we have now 4
new techs available
get Republic for 405 from Persia
give it to Polynesia for Democracy 63g and 3gpt
Arabs have some money, give Classical Education for 90g and 6 gpt

9.1275BC
London is now at pop 8 and 19spt
we could actually aim for Colossus in 9

IT so much about Colossus, Persia just finished it

10.1250BC
Persia and Celts know riding now, we can get it cheaply for 250g or less, but we might want to wait for a 2-fer
hope the poetry gamble pays, 4 more turns to go
London is at 21spt now, we can improve that, we chould get it to 30spt
the build now is academy, but we can change to palace garden or mill to boost shields
southern settler can settler 1 tile east or move down to claim suger
York pioneer to be changed to hardy to settler jungle, if we wish to

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11250.jpg

sanabas

Mar 20, 2005, 04:27 AM

Since we were talking about holding off our first revolt until we had Democracy, I will assume people agree with me that we want to be a democracy, both for the commerce bonus and the rate cap. I'd revolt straight away, but we're nearly at poetry, so I'll wait until then.

1250BC: all good

1225: Romans build Pyramids
Sell Polytheism to Polynesia for Riding and 5 gold

1200: Give Siam 60 gold for peace, then discover we had war happiness. Bugger. Lux % goes up.
Coventry founded

1175: Persia declares war on celts, also builds Sun Tzu's

1150: Polynesia demand 79 gold, I tell them where to go, they declare war
Research Poetry ---> Drama, immediately revolt
Trades: Poetry & 650 gold to Siam for Barding, Iron Working & Polytheism
Poetry & 220 gold to Persia for Military Training
Barding, Mil Train & Poetry to Celts for Monasticism & 30 gold
Barding, Iron work & Monotheism to Arabs for Seafaring, 51gpt & 50 gold (Economy looks much healthier now)
Monosticism to Siam for elephant training & 200 gold
Monasticism to Persia for 165 gold
We're now equal Tech leaders

1125BC: We lose tech lead, others have currency

1100BC: Barding to Rome for Coffee

1075: Persia demand 61 gold, they have a beachhead on our island already so I cave.

1050: Persia/Celt war is letting us play middleman for discount techs.
Tea & 440 gold to Celts for Athletics
Athletics & 210 gold to Persia for Horse Breeding
Athletics & 120 gold to Siam for Currency - We enter middle ages
Horse Breeding to Celts for Olive Oil, Gems & 55 gold
Monasticism to Arabs for 4gpt & 180 gold

1025: Celts build Chitzen Itza
We're a democracy, between our luxes and war happiness, we can set lux % to 0, science to 80%, we're making approx 60gpt.
Warwick founded

1000BC: zzz

Drama is now due in 4 turns, I could be wrong here but in my experience the Dark Ages tech can't be traded, so we can only trade Drama for money. I think we should not trade Drama, research Literature and not trade that either, and build the great library. London can prebuild library, and start great library the turn we get literature, it should be at around 30spt by then. We're still at war with Polynesia and have war happiness, there's no sign of polynesian ships so far.

sanabas

Mar 20, 2005, 04:30 AM

Oh yeah, one question occured to me. We're using at least RaR 1.02 because monuments cost 40 shields, not 20. Please tell me we're using 1.03b so workers get faster.

ThERat

Mar 20, 2005, 05:13 AM

good call on delaying the revolt, I think we can get the Glib, just don't trade those techs away, by now the AI should be busy with MA techs. simply don't trade away drama and lit until we are quite safe.

London will surely be able to make more than 30spt, now it's 26spt and with some boosters and more mines, it should be closer to 40spt, GLib is 360s, so roughly 10 turns.

romeothemonk

Mar 20, 2005, 07:33 AM

We will want to kick that Persian city off our Island soon though. I think they poached our iron. That would be very not good.
Got it, will play later today.

Bezhukov

Mar 20, 2005, 08:16 AM

Good work, people. So the plan is to make London the super city and use York to settle our lands?

romeothemonk

Mar 20, 2005, 08:21 AM

IBT: Nothing to change.
Turn 1: Canterbury builds worker, starts forge. Polynesia is also at war with the Arabs, doubt we will see any units.
Turn 2: London hits 30 spt with the water mill, start a 1 turn port.
Turn 3: London builds port, starts Shangri La. If we lose, it we can easily cascade down.
Turn 4: York, Hardy pioneer to shrine. Sheep town, shrine to forge. Lit is due in 7. Persians drop another city on our Island. Shangri La swapped to academy, which will finish before lit.
Turn 5: Notice london is working unimproved Tiles, moving all workers back to fix that.
Turn 6: Not much.
Turn 7: A polynesian canoe shows up.
Turn 8: The Canoe drops off an archer, Celts build Shagri La and Angkor Wat.
Turn 9: York builds worker, starts water mill, Sheep town builds harbor, Nottingham pioneer to shrine. Sending the Pioneer way down south. London grows and gets a specialist.
Turn 10: Lit comes in. Start london on a library, as the academy finished. Dark Ages in three.
We can trade with India and get silver. I would do this, as it would let us put that guy in London back to work.
I have 2 regular warriors tracking that archer. I would settle the Hardy Pioneer in place, and then consider rushing a shrine. We should really use our gold for rushing infra, I didn't because I didn't know if we would get the GL. As Drama is still a monopoly Tech, the GL seems pretty safe at the moment. Sheep town is going to be an unbelievable powerhouse very quickly.
Some pictures follow.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1main.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1london.jpg
Our Military advisor is very astute.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1f3.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-750BC.SAV

sanabas

Mar 20, 2005, 09:37 AM

If drama is still a monopoly tech, I would spend 360 part rushing London's library to complete in 1, and switch off research. That will let London work an extra tile, which will mean we complete GL in no more than 11 turns from now. Dark Ages can't be traded, but GL will give it to us, so no need to research it.

Bezhukov

Mar 20, 2005, 11:44 AM

Guess I'm up, unless Doc wants to take a spin. Whaddya say Doc? How bout two Sid wins in a row?

:)

Doc Tsiolkovski

Mar 20, 2005, 01:16 PM

I may jump in later, but not now. I'm feeling pretty sick (flu), and cannot concentrate enough.
Just one more comment: Do not rely on the GLib. That thing is so darn cheap for the AI, they can complete it within 2 turns sometimes.

Bezhukov

Mar 20, 2005, 06:36 PM

Thanks for letting us know, Doc. Hope you're feeling better soon. As for the GL, don't think we have much choice but to go all out to get it. If we miss, we miss. Got the game and will play tomorrow.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 02:14 PM

Sorry for the delay - RL and all that...

Pre-flight: Ship Gandhi CoL for Silver and RoP, improving relations. Swamp Coventry to Pioneer (why not found on the grass tile one NW? We can’t settle deserts! Need to settle on the first settlable tile to minimze wastage – same problem with sheeptown. Let’s do a dotmap. York to archer to fight interloper. MM for growth in York, 40spt in London. Sheep to granary. Warwick, Nottingham to counselor.

Ship wool to Brennus for some cash and RoP to help him fend off the Persian hordes. Ship tea for some coin and an RoP to Siam to improve relations. Give Abu 50 gold to improve relations, then sell him Athletics for the gold and an RoP. We English are a peaceful and prosperous people.

730BC: York:archer->pioneer. Archer redlines, but takes out polynesian arch.

710BC: London: lib->GL (in 9). Rome, Persia, and Siam now have Drama. Found Newcastle in northern peat bog (getting two spt from city square)

690BC: Dark Ages comes in. Go for Theology in 4 to have cascade target if GL fails. Sheep:granary->counselor.

670BC: York: pioneer->warrior (4 turn settler/warrior factory set up), worker join to London to get 12 pop.

650BC: Canterbury:forge->SM, Sheep:counselor->port. 9 gpt to Siam for tobacco. We can ship him Camels for a lot of stuff, but would hurt our rep if it depletes.

630BC: Celts build Voyage of Discovery, Persians cascade to GL. Take a peek at Persepolis. No cascade. Due in 9. Our exploring curragh finds horse on an island a long way from home. 11 got to Rome to reup coffee and RoP. Sheeptown to trading ship in 2 – we’re going after those horseys.

610BC: Warwick:counselor->SM Forest mine completes, cutting turn off of lib construction. London now makes 50 spt.

590BC: Reup lux deal with Brennus, throwing in 9gpt. We’ll need to reconsider these deals when we get caught up in tech. Sheep:Trading ship->spear. York:pioneer->Water Mill.

570BC: Notice that we're in Demo when London doesn't get happier with extra MP. Sorry bout that. Start rushing some key needed improvements in distant towns. Especially counselors (cheap courts).

550BC: Well, we get the GL (much rejoicing). I recommend we snag the Palace Gardens quickly (2 turns), as this will pay big tourism dividends very soon. Then we can build the production boosters and go to town.

*** Of utmost importance***

There is a trading ship south of London. He needs the Pioneer (should be one to his west) and a couple units (the spear in London will do), and should go ASAP to claim the horses on the Island near our curraugh. Settle on the horse so you won't need a worker to hook up, then rush a harbor.

Once the town southwest of London hits 5 pop, pls rush pioneer there to claim the rest of the peninsula. Let's not be shy about cash-rushing to get the rest of our cities up to speed.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 02:19 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Greatlib.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/horsesense.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-550BC.JPG

romeothemonk

Mar 22, 2005, 02:27 PM

We let the persians get 3 towns on our Island. I sense some elephant rampage coming shortly. I would build a rax in sheep, and have it crank out elephants. We really want to hit Persia while they are already at war with the Celts, and we need our iron back ASAP.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 02:33 PM

We are seafaring, which means the more coastal cities the better, and we are COM, which means the more coastal cities the better, and that we suffer less from having too many cities. So I say bunch 'em together as much as possible along the coasts.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap4.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap2.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap3.JPG

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 02:41 PM

Romeo, we're going to get the industrial strength production boosters coming through the GL next turn. We also need to get the lands we already have to a basic level of development (due to the lack of granaries, we are lacking workers). Phants could provide for slave labor, but I'd like to get a little better established on the lands we have before picking fights with the world leader. Should we get the horses, we will have sufficient lands and resources to win the game as is, although iron will eventually be required. Don't forget, there is open iron available on an unoccupied island that is closer than the horses. As the horses are more important, I'd say go for them first. But it would be easy to also send a settler toward the iron.

BTW, we are still in the phony war with Polynesia, wait until tech comes from the GL and use one to get peace.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 02:43 PM

Romeo, if you do war, pls promise: No empty coastal cities. This is honey for the Sid sneak bear, and there are lots of amphib units in RandR.

romeothemonk

Mar 22, 2005, 02:52 PM

I have to disagree with you Bez.
Elephants are extremely important as they are both military and workers. We need to lay tons of roads, and have some military might. Elephants fill both. Elephants are also a top-teir war unit until hussars, which show up at the very end of the middle ages. Horses are nice, yes, but Iron is far more important.
The best defender for a whole age is the pikeman, which requires iron. We can build Mameluks and beduin raiders if we want for offense without horses.
At Sid Level we must be more careful with our population, food, military and economy. This can only really be done by having one help the other. The Elephant at 0 pop and 60 shields that roads as fast as a laborer and is a fast attacker with the highest attack value for about 40 more turns, is much much superior to a 1 pop, 10 shield worker right now.
Notes:
As Feudalism comes in, sell off the old worker housings. We really do not need to pay useless gpt.
Build us some elephants!! We do not need to go to war, but they will certainly help discourage war, and allow us to road up our empire without killing our pop, or draggingtoo badly on our unit costs.
Consider disbanding some reg warriors as we have better troops now.
Build as many production multipliers as we can in London and Sheep town, sneaking out an elephant every now and again.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 03:45 PM

Pls do not build elephants in london until it gets 60 spt, or that will cause huge shields wastage.

The GL will probably only supply our research for 10 or so turns, which means we need to get sci buildings built soon as well, especially in our coastal cities. I'm really mystified as to mhy Canterbury was settled so far inland, wasting all those valuable high-commerce sea tiles. Probably too late to move it, so let's at least get it going on commerce.

I guess we can squeeze out some phants, but they are not the premier unit in this age. Knights have an extra attack and defense, and Cuirassiers run circles around them both. The main benefit I see is the creation of slaves. This implies that we may want to fight a 20-turn war against X instead of a quick strike. Let's get the horse city established first, as we lack horse on our continent and they are very important to have. I'm not a Camel fan.

You are correct on the need for pikes. We should have enough cities for FP soon, which I would recommend building in York.

Our saving grace is we're in a cash rush government, and we should be able to make a good deal of cash from selling GL techs. The key to this game will be trading, so let's try to maintain RoP's where applicable, as they improve relations and prices.

ThERat

Mar 22, 2005, 05:39 PM

sorry about Canterbury, maybe the C3C player in me influenced me with this decision, because I wasn't thinking of all the great commerce we would get :smoke:

I agree with Romeo to build elephants not only for working and a war with Persia, but to deter AI's from extorting things from us. Since we will get quite a few free techs soon, I try and sell as much as possible to gain cash and luxes. We need that money for trading later on.

Got it anyway, this looks good and fun. By the way, should we try and settle more of the Island in the west and south?

Edit: looking at the dot map, it's an extremely tight dotmap with 2 tile spacing, is that really required?

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 06:09 PM

Re: the tight spacing. Pls read my reasoning regarding our traits, then look at the commerce generated by the London city square alone. Each coastal. city we found gets that double commerce bonus. BTW, this is the main reason we are playing the civ we are. Commerce wins high-level games.

If we get to the point in the game where this is too tight, we've already won, or can keep some cities small to produce units while letting others grow out for commerce. I prefer to keep most cities at 15 pop max anyway to minimize pollution and save on sewer costs. In emergencies, we can abandon some cities late game.

I'm not set on this exact map, but I think tight coastal spacing would be smart. As would making a push to the other island, as our COM will really shine in getting those cities productive more quickly, and they create the opportunity for a lot more double-bonus city squares. After York completes the FP, he is a good source of pioneers with all the FP's.

I was not extorted once in my set, nor am I often in my games. I think my habit of maintaining RoP's and ongoing trades helps me here. If found it of the utmost importance to take all measures to snap up any luxes that come on the market to deny them to the AI. The other team's clowns win games. :D If one AI starts running away, it is a good idea to quit trading with that one however.

BTW, the Persians are currently fundie. :)

I wouldn't sit on too much cash right now, as it can be very productively invested in cheap improvements to get cities up an running relatively fast. Since we'll be getting irrigation soon, our first priority should be securing a decent work force, one way or another.

Personal note: My first Deity RandR win was as England. I had a hill/crab start with little else. No river. Got two cities on my island to seven for Rome. Luckily had iron, so when he sneaked, fought to a draw. Managed to snag a gold city on a distant island, a two-lux city on the Malinese island, and random cities on 3 other islands. Thanks to the COM bonus, was able to stay in the tech race, and actually make some cash. Traded for saltpeter and horse, built my 4-ROF UU, triggered the GA, and went to town.

Bezhukov

Mar 22, 2005, 06:17 PM

We definitely want to squeeze two cities onto the peninsula south of sheeptown to grab all those sea tiles, and sheep can loan some of his sheep to them when he wants to grow faster. I'd wait until we boot X to worry about arranging the southwest peninsula. We can just claim the land for now and develop the southern tip cities away from the prospective battlezone.

ThERat

Mar 23, 2005, 06:51 AM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-350BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
next turn we will get a host of techs

IT ok here we go
Mounted Archery, Fundamentalism, Invention, Lanteen Sail, Naval Spirit, Stirrup, Vassalage, Warrior Code, Milling, Clockworks, Scientific Methods

1.530BC
sending our settler on the way with a cover

IT oh, a Persian Jannisary is approaching :eek:
learn Castle Building, Feudalism, Heraldy, Siege Warfare, Alchemy, Guilds, Scholasticism

2.510BC
Celts are the tech leaders, we will get more techs next turn
sell worker housings except for London for happiness
worried, rush a spear in Nottingham
I want to make sure Persia doesn't mean business, get their 42g and give them 3gpt

IT Jannisary doesn't enter our territory yet
we learn Chivalry, Crop Rotation
get palace garden delayed due to shield drop, for the time being start elephant there
get FP message
Sheeptown finishes 1st phant, set at 21spt at zero growth to build more phants

3.490BC
all Civ's are broke, no chance to sell some techs for cash
London grew, need to raise lux to 10%, sell worker housing
set London to 33shield to maximise growth since we build phants

IT Persia and Celts sign peace
get Engineering, Usury

4. 470BC
sell Persia Usury for 270g

IT Celts declare on Rome
London elephant -> town clock at 40 spt in 3

5.450BC
zzzz

IT Persia seems to beeline for our dyes

6.430BC
shadow him, we have now 3 phants

IT Architecture,Banking are in

7.410BC
phants are great at roading in 1

8.390BC

IT Persian unit finally buggers off
London town clock -> wind mill in 2 at 50spt now
we get 2 more pioneers

9. 370BC
Education will come in next turn, I have been running Astronomy at a slow pace, speed it up now in 11 at -19gpt

IT Polynesia and Arabs sign peace
we get Education
London wind mill -> school of scribes in 2

10.350BC
London can make max 58spt, York at 30spt
our elephants have been happily roading
left it to next player to start attack, we have 5 of them now and York can make 1 every 2 turns, Sheeptown every 3
we need to start tech brokering now with lost GLib
Celts run off with money and techs
2 settler almost at their destination, need to build some hardies now

where do we want the FP?

elephants are all over the place due to roading
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1350.jpg

dingy almost reached destination
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1350b.jpg

sanabas

Mar 23, 2005, 08:18 AM

Got it.

I want to make sure Persia doesn't mean business, get their 42g and give them 3gpt

left it to next player to start attack,

I wil leave it to Romeo to play with the elephants, don't want to trash our rep just yet. I'll keep working on colonising/roading.

Bezhukov

Mar 23, 2005, 10:12 AM

When London gets to 15, can he work a desert tile to get to 60spt?

Pls build Academy and The Academy before SoS. We really need to get some coastal squares worked and some sci buildings built, or we'l fall too far behind in tech. Phants cost almost as much as a sci building each. Phants before production boosters are a big no-no in my book (see LK87 for where this leads.)

Labs and Schools can wait. Mills and Academies shouldn't have to.

If you want to fight Persia, see how close they are to Political Philosophy first. When they get that, they can buy others in. Our UU shall one day rule the seas - let's make it there first.

ThERat

Mar 23, 2005, 10:23 AM

actually London can work the desert to make it 60spt but at the moment at negative food

now we at least some defense up in case an AI want to sneak attack. During my turns, nobody demanded anything, at least some indicator we have a good defense

as for SoS, the academy has been built already. I went for astronomy so we can grab Copernicus in London

romeothemonk

Mar 23, 2005, 10:41 AM

I built the Academies during my last turnset. :) Science good. Persia Bad.
Rather than a school of Scribes I would rather build a University in London, as it is a prereq for many things. The great thing is we can cash rush lots of stuff there, and I would consider short rushing production and science there.
Kudo's to ThERat for giving us some elephants.
@Bez I think you mean LK88, LK87 is the world map game IIRC.
Sheep town does need a few more production boosts.
Do we want the IP in sheep town or in London??

sanabas

Mar 23, 2005, 11:52 AM

Didn't read the last few comments until just now. Academy SW is already built, I kept the 'phants going in york & sheeptown, but we are now close to enough of them to switch sheeptown back to some production boosters. London went SoS, temple, bazaar, guild hall, and a 1-turn 'phant. I doubt we can get copernicus', we can try to and use university, holy city or gutenberg's bible as a fallback if we miss.

We want IP in sheeptown I think. Fairly sure it has more sea squares than London, and it really needs the food bonus. Hopefully Romeo can find us a MGL for it.

350BC: All good, I change York and Sheeptown to barracks, rush 10 shields in york. Also switch nottingham to a pioneer.

IBT: Lots of RoPs expire. Don't renew with siam, renew with arabs, celts & india, I give away horse breeding to India, stirrup to arabs & wool to celts, get back silver & 133 gold from them.

330BC: Siam have money now too, give them wool for 95 gold & RoP.
York & Sheeptown build barracks, back to veteran 'phants.
Brighton founded

310BC: Norwich founded, Leeds founded, Lambsburg founded
Polynesia has landed next to Newcastle's 1 archer, so I make peace and get 19 gold out of it.
Give Persia banking for Astronomy & 168 gold, start on political philosophy for alliances and as a prereq for encyclopedie

290: Celts have a beachhead on our island in the NW corner.

270: We now have horses, but I stick to building 'phants as they have the same upgrade path & attack but let me road while waiting for the war to start

250: Polynesia & Celts ally v Rome

230: Renew Tobacco deal with Siam, we give Tea & Wool for Tobacco & 18 gold

210: Renew RoP with Rome, we give them Banking for Coffee & 6 gold

190: zzz

170: Lose Gems & Olive Oil, sell the Celts Tea for 132 gold.
London builds Guild Hall, is over 60spt without starving it
Birmingham founded

IBT: Persia demands Tea :lol: Not waiting another 20 turns, I tell them where to go, they declare war.
India & Celts ally v Rome

150: Research Political Philosophy, start on Printing Press for a monopoly and gutenberg's bible
Elephants go on the march to the persian border, no fights yet.

We can sign alliances now, we can have a short war and kick the persians off our island, or ally up and have a long one. Everyone except the Celts & Siam are behind us in tech, so should ally without spending money.

Oxford? in the SW corner is about to build a pioneer to go and claim iron on the next island, trading ship is there for transport, spearman is on the way for defense.

sanabas

Mar 23, 2005, 11:56 AM

Ignore what I said about IP in sheeptown. It doesn't have enough sea squares. I'd say IP in Dover, with London 2nd preference.

romeothemonk

Mar 23, 2005, 12:04 PM

I will try and get to this befor Easter. Kudos on the setup. I sense some slaves in our future.

ThERat

Mar 23, 2005, 05:04 PM

Persia demands Tea :lol: guess they got their money back so they felt they should demand some more stuff.

lucky we have all those phants now to make them feel some pain. iron will be ours

again, where do we want to have the FP?

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 07:43 AM

FP needs to be built yesterday. This was a costly oversight, as it really helps OCN. York seems best for now. The key factor in the IP is the extra food, and how many low-food tiles it allows us to work. London doesn't need it, as it has flood plains. What's that city up on the north coast on the peat bog? May have to wait too long for high explosives to get it developed, but it could be a monster with IP (once we can plant forests). Otherwise, sheeptown might be a good candidate, although we'd need to forgo that city on the hill north of it to get the most bang for the buck.

Pls do not ship luxes to the Celts. AI clowns are our friend, and the Celts are the biggest threat to us (50K culture win). Let's get the Celts fighting the Persians, if possible. On a related note, let's figure out who is closest to the Celts in culture and help them.

romeothemonk

Mar 24, 2005, 09:36 AM

IHT: Swap London to KT, and York to Bazaar. Sheep town swaps to FP.
Turn 1: Position to Attack.
IBT: Lose a spear to a Persian something or other.
Turn 2: Kill a spear, a Mujahid, an MDI and lose a reg rider at Samaria, get 2 slaves. (3-2) Kill a Mujadin by Hamadan, get 1 slave. (4-2).
Turn 3: We snag perspective from the Romans for Political philo. Rome is fighting the Celts, help Rome. Lose 2 elephants at Samaria, cause they forgot to win or retreat. (4-4). Kill a spear and a TG at Hamadan, and capture it with a slave.
Turn 4: Quell the Resistor in Hamadan. Start Science and corruption reducing stuff everywhere. We don't have counselors in most places. The Evil Persians have pikes now. OOO, Im scared.
Turn 5: We build the KT in London. We got a wonder!! And it is one of my favorite wonders as well. Start London on Copes (Prebuild if nothing else) Kill a pike and a spear and Raze Tyre, net 4 total slaves no losses. (8-4)
Turn 6: York starts academy.
Turn 7: Get PP at Monoply, get WM, 150 gold and Navigation from the Celts for it. Gunpowder, WM and 250 gold from Siam for Incense and PP. PP, Wool, Tea and 300 gold get Physics from Rome. We build the FP in Sheeptown, sell the Rax there. Corruption is reduced all over. Found Iron town on the Island.
Turn 8: Persia and Rome Ally against India. Destroy Samaria and kill 1 spear. (9-4). Capture a spear settler pair. (10-4). Build Exeter so we can have iron on our own continent. Rush a shrine in Birmingham.
Turn 9: Moving and stuff. Trying to get some more settlers out.
Turn 10: We have trades availible with the Arabs. I suggest we take them.
No really nice trades opened up on my turns, but I snagged us about 8-9 free workers, plus some gold, and helped to secure our Island. We desperately need more culture. We are fine on troops for a little while yet. I upgraded some of our new foreign workers.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-1.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-2.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-3.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-50_AD.SAV

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 03:13 PM

Good warring Romeo! One question - you have read the pedia on the RandR version of KT, correct? I'm mystified by your enthusiasm for it, especially giving up Copes to build KT. Why?

romeothemonk

Mar 24, 2005, 03:36 PM

Yes I have read the civilopedia. I have several reasons for liking the KT:
1) Free units from the city that builds it. The closest unit of it's kind is the cavalier, and I almost always get 3+ units from it, so it pays for itself in usable units.
2) Culture, the KT is worth Culture per turn, which we desperately need.
3) In almost every game I have played KT is built in the best city, and it allows the best city in the game to contribute to war, even when it is wonder building.
4) We didn't give up Copes, it is due in 5
5) I think the KT becomes a tourist attraction.
6) I have noticed that the civilopedia here says that the templar is a 6-1-2 unit, but in LK94 the templar were 5-3-2.
7) Just a personal preference on the KT

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 05:18 PM

Ok, just checking to make sure you knew about the frequency. At least you didn't build the Royal Tournament. :lol: We'll see if we can get Copes too. No guarantee on Sidney level, that's for sure.

ThERat

Mar 24, 2005, 06:08 PM

looking at the statistics provided by Romeo, we need to make sure that
Persia or India/Siam do not fall behind Celts in culture

Persia and Celts share the Island, maybe it would be good to ally Persia against Celts so both get bogged down in war? We could then get rid of that intruder city on our Island.

when we select new techs we have to be very wise to chose a tech we might get as monopoly for trading else we will very fast fall behind. unfortunately matchlock is known already. PP was great

anyway, :goodjob: Romeo

romeothemonk

Mar 24, 2005, 06:12 PM

Matchlock was the last required tech to start absolutism. That was why it was chosen. I concur that a Celtic war with Allies could be good for us very soon.

romeothemonk

Mar 24, 2005, 06:14 PM

Another idea. We are the suppliers of incense to the Siamese. Let us make sure that we keep selling it to them. They also pay a pretty penny for it.

ThERat

Mar 24, 2005, 06:15 PM

I know why matchlock was chosen, no disagreement, it's just a pity that 2 have it already.

Doc Tsiolkovski

Mar 24, 2005, 06:27 PM

Problem with the current Templar is that it is lacking an upgrade path. And the Pedia is always correct about unit stats and resources (sinec they're autogenerated), so 6.1.2 is all you get.
But I agree with the reasoning, I like the wonder as well.

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 07:47 PM

It does beat the Royal Tournament, but Doc, I think you overnerfed the frequency a tad, given the short time until obsolescence. Again, worse on RT, but especially given the lack of upgrade, a little weak. Agree on helping others compete with Brennus. If we war on Celts, razing the Angkor Wat city would be a big help (free Shrines in all cities). If we can get just a mini-pile on him (i.e. Persia and Rome) they should be able to do some damage. Oops, scratch that - I see that Caesar is not long for this world.

Let's get some pikes built first. Did we get the FP built yet?

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 07:48 PM

Guess I'm up - I'll take a spin tonight.

romeothemonk

Mar 24, 2005, 09:16 PM

Yes we have the FP. It is in Sheeptown. I thought that was in my turnlog.
I would get a whole world dogpile on the Celts, as they are trading a lot with the world.
In the really evil stage, I would have arabia and polynesia and siam declare on them. That way they lose silks and we have a chance to build the uber-wonder silk-road.
The Celt town on our Island is a major flip risk on our northern empire, and it needs to go ASAP.
The Celts forces should be in the North, so a persian decleeration could really screw them.
I would not invade the mainland, just trim their colonies.
Good luck Bez.

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 10:37 PM

Pre-flight: As I am a peace-loving civver, and our empire has really suffered from the need to build units, I decide to focus on catching up in development ofr my set. Others can war if they wish.

Change Canterbury to granary to get growth going – we need to start irrigating! Ship Arabia Banking for some luxes.

IBT: Reup RoP for 20 gold with Abu. Do not reup deal sending wool to Brennus for RoP. Notice he lacks saltpeter. Reup RoP with Gandhi, sending him Chivalry for silver.

70AD: York:Toll House->Philosopher’s School, Nottingham:granary->peasant, Sheeptown:Windmill->port, Warwick:port->granary, Dover:port->Slave Market, Lambsburg:Slave Market->counselor

IBT: Celts get Silk Road, Persians Leos

90AD: Upgrade a bunch of workers to peasants. Matchlock->Absolutism

IBT: Celts and Siam get Abs.

110AD: Coventry:peasant->Slave Market, Newcastle:shrine->slave market, Birmingham:counselor->slave market, York:philosopher’s school->guild hall, Sheeptown: port->town clock, Lambsburg:counselor->granary, Trade Siege Warfare to Polynesia for silks, ship Rome Matchlock for 10gpt and 46 gold.

IBT: Rome researched Music Theory and traded it around to get ahead of us in tech.

130AD: Dover:SM->granary, hamadan:counselor->harbor

IBT: Siam allies with Celts vs. Rome

150AD: London:copes->skim laborer, Nottingham:laborer->pioneer, Brighton: Slave Market->harbor

IBT: We ship 4 luxes and camel to Siam for tobacco, RoP and 700 gold. LK would balk, but he’s not here. :lol:

170AD: London: peasant->Toll House

190AD: London:Toll House->Opera House (pre-build for Encyclopdia), Oxford:shrine->harbor, Norwich:counselor->harbor

210AD: Lambsburg:granary->forge, broghton:harbor->forge, ship Rome Absolutism for Mapmaking, switch York to Summer Palace in 4.

230AD: Sheeptown:Town Clock->major port, trade Abu tea for furs and some gpt

250AD: Sheeptown:Major Port->Guild Hall, Canterbury:Water Mill->Town Clock, Hamadan:harbor->Slave Market

I may have missed some build records here somewhere. Need to grow cities out to 5 pop to get WLTK days. There is another horse on our horse island if we can get a settler there. Cities that have been building production boosters can start in on sci and econ buildings soon. Opera House in London is pre-build for Encyclopedia - Humanism is still unresearched. Faster Sid wonder builds may help us, as it cuts down of cascade possibilities.

Workers need to chop forest and irrigate that tile, irrigate flood plain, and mine hills to make Canterbury a monster.

ThERat

Mar 24, 2005, 10:46 PM

I know I am up but some tiny roster every now and then does wonders

Bezhukov

Mar 24, 2005, 10:50 PM

You're wish is my command.

Bez (just done)
ThERat (now playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Romeo (plotting next war)
Doc (whenever he feels like taking a spin)

ThERat

Mar 25, 2005, 12:31 AM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1_350AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
do some calculation, London has built 200shields, needs another 800 for Glib2 (called Encyclopedia) at 65 shields
thats 13 turns or so

IT see Persian cane get sunk by Indians

1.260AD
some workers on automove :nono:
shift some elephants towards Celts

IT we get Summer palace

2.270AD
nobody has Humanism still, at least we have a monopoly

IT India and Persia sign peace
get Humanism, go for free Artistry

3. 280AD
we got a monopoly, but if we trade we might threaten our encyclopedia
it will be ready in 13

declare war on celts, sign persia in for 3 luxes
attack their town, 2 elephant wins later we raze their foothold and net 246 gold
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1280.jpg

IT India gets signed against us

4.290AD
can trade with Arabs now, get Music Theory and alliance against Celts for Matchlock and Physics

IT we get celt landing of 1 cuirassier

5.300AD
York has been building 2 halbediers , could cover cities, but a phant takes care of it and we get another slave
found Cambrigde in the south
trade Absolutism with Arabs for 23gpt and Magnetism
land 3 phants next to Tantingel on east Island

IT Polynesia and Celts sign versus Persia
good, the more Civ's fight the merrier, celts finish Gutenberg

6.310AD
attack Celt town
surprisingly it was only defended by 1 unit
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1310.jpg

IT better news, Siam and Persia ally against Celts

7.320AD
rush a pioneer in horse town, we get Free Artistry
go for Juris Prudence so we can have monopoly on Social contract hopefully

8.330AD
nth much

9.330AD
Exeter is a slight flip risk, shrine -> temple

10. 350AD
found 2nd horse town Glocester
nobody knows Humanism, we get Juris prudence in 3, then can go for Social contract
we have 2 monopoly techs at the moment, even if encyclopedia goes wrong (6 more turns), we have some little backup
I did not trade Humanism, unless we see Civ aquire it, we should not trade
Celts would talk already, but we still have an alliance
we have to be careful since there are some Indian vessels and Celt galleon around

horse Island
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1350c.jpg

watch those 3 ships
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1350d.jpg

ThERat

Mar 25, 2005, 12:35 AM

one more thing, we just lost 2 lux, we should trade again with Arabs, but DO NOT trade Humanism

and if possible, sign peace with India as soon as possible, so that horse towns are not in danger, we should send some units over to help out

romeothemonk

Mar 25, 2005, 06:52 AM

Nice turns guys. I really liked them both. Great work.

Bezhukov

Mar 25, 2005, 12:10 PM

With all the warring, check to see if any luxes have been freed up. Hogging the luxes = AI clowns = win. The one exception to this is sending luxes to Persia to help against Brennus. Can we get the Polynesians signed up against to Celts? May be too late now (as it would tie us in for 20), but Polynesians are seafaring and might take out some Celt ships. After we get our next tech, let's investigate what tech we need for our UU. It is actually quite effective and can help us defend our blessed Albion. Let's get that tip of the Isle where the Celts were settled ASAP. Can we squeeze two cities in there?

I agree - good show.

sanabas

Mar 25, 2005, 01:18 PM

Got it. Good work to not trade Humanism. nice war too.

Bezhukov

Mar 25, 2005, 06:44 PM

Not sure how serious a culture threat Brennus is at this point, but razing the Angkor Wat city could do a lot to slow him down if this is at all feasible.

ThERat

Mar 25, 2005, 07:48 PM

actually I can see that Brennus is stronger than Persia, we shipped him lux already to join the war (3 lux)

reason why I didn't sign more because giving up Humanism was a strict NO for me, that's why we got India to fight us.
northern town currently building pioneer to cover that 'hole' up north

Bezhukov

Mar 25, 2005, 07:56 PM

>we shipped him lux already to join the war (3 lux)

Sorry I wasn't clear - my comment was intended to acknowledge that this was smart, not a suggestion. :)

sanabas

Mar 26, 2005, 07:14 PM

350AD: All looks good, but our defense looks thin, and our Navy is non existent. We can repel invaders OK, but we look very vulnerable to amphibious attacks, and will find it very difficult to project any power outside our home island, especially hard on the celts island. I turn down research to get cash to rush navy & defenders, and immediately rush a great galleas and a colonist for the NW corner.

IBT: sign RoP with Arabs
India declare war on Arabs
Polynesia & Celts ally against us, we lose our silks
Siam builds Magellan's Voyage

360: Sell incense, sugar & dyes to the Arabs for cotton, spice, WM & 291 gold
Sink Indian war galley (1-0)

370: Celts & Rome sign peace treaty
Sink Indian war galley (2-0)
Sign peace treaty with india, swap WM to do it.
Sink Polynesian outrigger (3-0)
Manchester founded

380: Sink Celtic canoe (4-0)
Kill Polynesian archer (5-0)

390: Sheeptown builds forbidden gardens
Kill 2 pikemen in Niau, it auto-razes (7-0)

400: Canterbury starts East India Company

IBT: Renew RoP with Siam
Horses, Sugar & Wool to Siam for Tobacco & 630 gold
India & Celts ally v Persia

410: London builds Encyclopedie

420: India & Polynesia sign embargo against us
We get Jurisprudence, Mercantilism, Metallurgy, Naval Cannon, Newtonian Synthesis & Theory of Warfare

IBT: Persia & Siam ally v Rome
Celts & Rome ally v us (bye bye rome)
Celts how much alliances mean to them when they offer us peace. I reject as I like our rep the way it is

430: We get Economics & Leadership, London starts on Smith's Trading Company
Sell Humanism to Siam for 1650 gold
Sell Humanism to Persia for 290 gold & 18 gpt
Celts have founded a city next to Irontown, I kill a celt crusader there (8-0)
Bristol founded
Leicester founded

440: Polynesia delare war on Siam
Learn Cavalry Tactics & Flintlock, enter IA.
I turn research back on for Naval Tactics & our UU, due in 6
Free Artistry to Siam for 1950 gold
Sink Celt galleon (9-0)
Sink roman canoe (10-0)
Carlisle founded

IBT: Renew furs deal with Arabs, we give them Free Artistry, they give furs & 14gpt
A privateer (I think persian, but could be celts) sinks a great galleas (10-1)

450: Learn Constitutionalism & Federalism. We can revolt now for Federal Republic, or wait for Absolute Monarchy?, depends how much time we want to spend at war. I left us as a democracy for now.
Kill another Celt crusader near Irontown (11-1)
Kill a roman spearman in Ravenna, sink a roman canoe & a polynesian galley(14-1)
Discover an Indian slave walking on water next to the Romans :confused:

4 attackers have just landed on the Roman island and by the Celtic city next to Irontown, Romans should be extinct soon.

Tintagel had 3 elephants for most of my set, and the 1 resister there still hasn't disappeared :mad: Dunno if elephants can't squash resistance, or if it was just bad luck.

Bezhukov

Mar 26, 2005, 07:24 PM

Great job, Sanabas! :thumbsup: Things are developing nicely. I'd like to maintain a trade bonus government, as I chose the English so we could be economically dominant. No rush for Fed Repub. We'll need to be in it by the time Lady Liberty becomes avaliable, although long-term I'm shooting for Dem Soc.

Man o War (our UU) will rule the seas for quite a while, and it has a 4 RoF on bombardment, so will help any invasions we might contemplate. Oh yeah, and also trigger our GA! Romeo gets to have some fun next.

Romeo (currently playing)
Bez (on deck)
ThERat
Sanabas

ThERat

Mar 26, 2005, 07:42 PM

wow, great turns Sanabas :goodjob:
this SG is really amazingly good, haven't seen a bad turnlog yet. we might have a shot here actually

and thanks for building up the naval defense, weak point for me :(

sanabas

Mar 26, 2005, 08:01 PM

Ta guys. One thing with this level, if we get any war weariness at all, it is usually crippling, it's something to watch out for if we're staying in a trade bonus govt. I'm really surprised how well we've gone too, Encyclopedie lasts almost all the way to Total War, a diplo win via League of Nations shouldn't be too difficult from here. With the newer naval units coming up, we need to build a couple of shipyards to upgrade our carracks & galleases. I think there's still a curragh hiding in London too that can be upgraded, galleons are really effective at picking off canoes/triremes/galleys. We're still waiting on a MGL for International Port too. Canterbury is another candidate for IP, it will let us work all those hills and make canterbury a monster shield city.

Bezhukov

Mar 26, 2005, 09:36 PM

Did we get the forest near Canterbury chopped yet? Irrigating that tile would give him some extra food. I'd say we have have better than a shot - I'd be surprised if we did not emerge victorious. Nice balance of talents in this team.

WW isn't bad as long as you wait for them to attack you. :) With Sid unit levels, this isn't too tough. Once we get bazaars (and hopefully East India) built, happiness shouldn't be too difficult to maintain with 10% lux. We'll also get Emancipation soon from the Pedia, which will kill our Slave Markets and giev us more happiness, if less production.

I think the "hogging the luxes" strategy has paid off, both in maintaining our own and keeping the AI supplied with sufficient clowns. Remember that we've got a (30-turn) GA coming soon, so we can plan worker actions with this in mind. Probably should not revolt until post-GA.

ThERat

Mar 27, 2005, 05:40 PM

Canterbury forest was chopped during my turns

I fear Celts start to win the war against Persia, some towns look razed already. Can we step in to help? Do we have the ability to build armies yet? a defensive army for a landing would help.

Discover an Indian slave walking on water next to the Romans what can we do to put this poor fellow out of his misery? it's obviously a bug, must have been a sea attack that created a slave, but the transport was full :lol:

Bezhukov

Mar 27, 2005, 06:34 PM

"a defensive army for a landing would help."

Prolly better to use marines to raze coastal cities with artillery support from our UU.

One good use for a defensive army would be cutting off the Celt capital via the evil pillage.

romeothemonk

Mar 28, 2005, 09:17 PM

I got it now. I am back from A minor vacation.
I will try and play tomorrow morning.

romeothemonk

Mar 29, 2005, 08:32 AM

IHT: Swap some builds, nothing major. Building Leicester was a gigantic mistake!! It should be unfounded ASAP. I really hurts the rank corruption of everything else and gives no real bonus, as it will be trapped as a little town for all eternity. RANK CORRUPTION KILLS AT SID. Tight pack is good early but totally blows later.
Turn 1: Templar kills scut X2 and we own Ravenaa. Please allow another MAJOR rant here. Once again, this is Sid difficulty. We are commercial, and have gobs of Cash. NEARLY EVERY TROOP WE OWN IS REGULAR. THis is horrible. I have reg warriors as top defenders. It will not kill us to spam some vet units out of our good cities and keep them upgraded. I have gotten rolled at Emporer with larger armies than this, and we are fighting 3!! Wars. Kill 2 pikes and a crusader, losing a 4 HP regular cavalier. Capture Carchemish from Celts. (5-1). We can upgrade our workforce to laborers, but there are almost no laborers, start the upgrade process.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-1.jpg
Turn 2: Celts build Bach's. York is put on Musketmen, and I expect it to stay there until we have at least 1 vet musket in every city on our Island.
Turn 3: Renegotiate with X-man, canceling the Alliance, but snagging some gpt and workers. Polynesia declared on the Arabs. We get Steam Power. I am building lots of ports and major ports.
Turn 4: Cancel Alliance with Arabs, Celts are ripping X-man a new one. The Arabs start Smiths. Pull a MA deal with Siam against Rome. We Get Nationalism and modern legal system. I lost a reg cavalier and a vet templar, killed 2 pikes and elimanated Rome. (7-3).
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-2.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-3.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-4.jpg
Turn 5: Start a low power run towards Medicine. (Rate Caps). Something I didn't know, Elephants can clear forest. India and Celts Ma against Siam. Rush a shipyard in Newcastle. This may be a minor inconveince, we cannot get our UU until we get shipbuilding. Backtracking now. Sink Poly Cannoe. (8-3).
Turn 6: Not much happens.
Turn 7: I am now pushing out Line infantry. We will have some regs, but I am trying to keep them inland.
Turn 8: Hmm Carmatheon flips, and Medina builds Smiths in half the time our investigation showed. This could be very bad. Swap London to Shakes in 1. Arabs build Newtons.
Turn 9: Get shakes, set london on Growth. Persians have 3 cities left, none on Celt land.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-5.jpg
Turn 10: Good news all around.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-6.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-7.jpg
Re MM for GA, stop Line infantry production to get prisons up. Raze Carcemish for some gold this time.
Thoughts: We should after our prisons complete, swap our three best cities to district courthouses, and have Sheep town Prebuild The Supreme Court. This is the last wonder other than the Crystal Palace I even think we should try for. Losing all that production for Shakes wasn't worth it IMHO. Possibly the Statue of Liberty could be worth it in London. We can make peace with the Celts anytime, and the next player may want to consider it. I re-MMed some of our cities, but they will be wanting for more I am sure. I didn't do much with the trading and stuff, so please watch and check for oppurtunities. We may want to preserve X-man until the deals run out, and do the MA trick again.
Do not capture any cities from here on out unless they have a wonder. Flipping really sucks, and it will happen. More thoughts to come later.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-550_AD.SAV

LKendter

Mar 29, 2005, 08:38 AM

:confused: How do you show a 540AD picture with East India in 14 turns, but also show a picture showing it completed?

romeothemonk

Mar 29, 2005, 08:42 AM

Here are our forces before my 10
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-8.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-9.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-10.jpg

And here are our forces after my turnset. I should mention we lost 3 units in the flip of Carchemesh, but all were reg troops.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-11.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-12.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1-13.jpg

romeothemonk

Mar 29, 2005, 08:46 AM

:confused: How do you show a 540AD picture with East India in 14 turns, but also show a picture showing it completed?

It completed that turn, and I took my picture of the splash. I closed the splash, and took a picture of the Golden age splash. The c3c engine defaults to rebuild what you have just built until you change it. Normally this appears instantaneously, but when a splash interrupts it, it can be seen. I have had this happen numerous times before, and it is kinda cool. :cool:
Don't worry it is all legit.

Bezhukov

Mar 29, 2005, 10:33 AM

"I didn't do much with the trading and stuff"

Appreciate all your comments re: military, but if we do not trade to the fullest, we lose. That's why I chose commercial monster England to play. Pls play close attention to the trading. I usually do not build prisons until factories are built, as they are quite pricey - were any cheap commerce builds available instead?

Not sure why we are fighting Siam, as we need them to help offset the Celts. Why are we going full out research when we have the Encyclopedia? We may need to formulate a long-term plan at this point to weaken Brennus. What's the status on the culture race? We will get the Smith's effect soon enough with Soc. Dem. :)

Bezhukov

Mar 29, 2005, 10:34 AM

Doc, it's yours if you want it, OW, I'll take it tomorrow.

romeothemonk

Mar 29, 2005, 10:49 AM

I wanted to build prisons so that we could get over 100 shields in our core cities. This allows for 1 turn units, or much more economical builds on units. Prisons also reduce corruption, which is a major problem on Sid. After the Prisons are built, we can sell the courthouses to save on upkeep in our 2nd palace cities.
We are going full bore on units so that we can build our UU. I hit the Golden Age after I started going full bore on research. We are 2 turns out, I would finish it, then start no research.
We are not fighting Siam, the Celts and Indians are. We are helping Siam. They have more than half the culture and more than half the culture per turn of the Celts. (Siam ~120 cpt, Celts ~180 cpt)
Our Military is way too weak right now to even consider an offensive.
I am/was using our Elephants to Road the Jungle, then our laborers to mine it. Elephants ignore jungle penalty, and 2 riders can move to a new square and road it in 1. I would do this, and let the laborers improve the already roaded trails.
On the Trades, I watched for deals, but didn't really see any good ones, other than the MA trick. (Good ones involve someone paying even 20% of what the tech is worth.) I am not a guy to squeeze water from rocks.
I think we should finish our research, and flood the seas with our UU. (~10-15 of them) However, we should only do this after we get the supreme court up. If you want to not build the prisons and get the court up even faster, I understand that too.
I took a whole lot more advantage of the seafaring trait then the commercial trait during my turns, and suggest that we follow that.
Also we will want a decision on Liester. Do we abandon it to reduce rank corruption? I vote yes. I hate cities that are stuck at less than size 7 permenantly. We don't need that to win here.

Bezhukov

Mar 29, 2005, 11:39 AM

I'd do a test to see how much good it would do. How do we stand in relation to the OCN? I've always been disappointed in the effect abandoning my temporary cities has on the corruption of the rest, but then again, I don't play Sid much.

I had considered a city near Leicester much earlier, then decided against it, given the placement of Sheeptown. Gets back to my concern with how Sheeptown was placed originally, as if we had been more careful, we would not have either had to waste Leicesters's tiles or create a suboptimal city to work them. Something to consider in the next early game.

Bezhukov

Mar 29, 2005, 11:41 AM

Tech trades are of course important, but more important than that is controlling the luxes - making sure we have a full supply (over 11, there is not benefit), and denying them to the Celts/helping our friends. See Bed3 for the imcome that can be generated from happy allies. We can also make good coin selling resources.

Given your concerns vis-a-vis our military, another good use for our UU would be pillaging the crap out of the Celtic coast.

romeothemonk

Mar 29, 2005, 04:20 PM

I concur with blowing the snot out of the Celt coast. In ~20-30 turns we can bomb the coast, then hit them with some vet colonial marines. This combo is really nice and we need only ~6 Man'o'wars and a clipper full of Marines. This could sustain us all the way to the advent of tanks. We can really take out some old Celt cities and burn the culture. I saw ~30 hussar type units of the Celts roar past during my turns.

Bezhukov

Mar 30, 2005, 11:06 AM

If I do not hear from Doc by this evening, will fire 'er up and report on the morn.

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 02:22 AM

Pre-flight: Alrighteee, then! Let’s see if we can get some of my Queen-loving magic going here. Make peace with our good friends the Polynesians. Ink a trade embargo against the Celts with Gandhi – boy does he have some caish on hand! Wait until we discover Shipbuilding to ink a new deal with him. Persia’s capital is now on our iron isle, and they have two other cities on another island. An opportunity to purchase Gandhi’s cash, or better, Brennus’s, at some point if need be.

Brennus pays us 200 for peace, as are people clamor for an end to war, for a while. Great, the only coal I can find in the entire world belongs to Brennus, and he has three. And we have a nice brand-spanking new trade embargo against him. No sweat – we’ll find a way. Do we have the Supreme Court yet?

I’ll not go into too much detail on MM adjustments, just a couple…

Switch London, York and Canterbury to District Courts, Canterbury gets his in five, slightly starving.

Leicester works six extra tiles. I disband it to test the impact, and income goes down 1 gpt. It stays.

560AD: Brighton:court->granary, Lambsburg:bazaar->colonist (he’s crowding sheeptown), Cambridge:shrine->harbor, Birmingham:major port->windmill, Manchester:counselor->harbor, Carlisle:counselor->harbor,

We’re the second largest nation in the world. BTW, we didn’t need Ship Building to build our UU, we can build it now – but more pressing priorities present themselves. Shipbuilding will be nice to trade to Brennus, as it turns off his Colossus. Oddly enough, he’s not the tech leader – that would be Siam, by a good margin.

Found some coal on an unclaimed Isle!

Reup lux deal with Arabia, throwing in an extra lux to help his economy along.

570AD: Our Ship (building) finally comes in, we go for Industrialization in 6, Warwick:windmill->townclock, Gloucester:counselor->colonist

We sell Siam Shipbuilding for 1850 gold. He is four techs ahead – no more helping Siam for a bit. Sell Brennus shipbuilding for 650 gold, turning off his colossus. Brennus now has Industrialization too. Switch our research to ToE, to try for Darwin. We can trade Brennus the 4 techs we are up for Industrial, but will wait a few to see what develops first. MM London to grow two turns faster, still getting District Court.

IBT: Oh yeah, we have Encyclopedia – we get Industrialization!

580AD: London:District Court->factory (making 102 spt), York:District Court->laborer, Notingham:aqueduct:watermill, Tintagel:harbor->port, Ravenna:counselor->harbor, Exeter:courthouse-.granary, Newcastle:forge->bazaar, Hamadan:courthouse->bazaar, Oxford:CH->bazaar, Dover:bazaar->shrine, Norwich;CH->bazaar, Leeds:colonist->port, Cambridge:harbor->port, Manchester:harbor->port, Carlisle:harbor->port

590AD: York:laborer->factory, Exeter:granary->windmill, Brighton:granary->colonist, Lambsburg:colonist->toll house

600AD: Canterbury:District CH->Factory, Ravenna:harbor->port, Leds: port->colonist, Cambridge:port->counselor, Gloucester:colonist->harbor, Manchester: port->granary, Carlisle: port->granary

The Celts are building Clausewitz, so must have Strategy.

Swtich York to Supreme Court in five. Rename Newcastle to NoCoal, as despite all the surrounding jungle, none was to be found there. Found Newcastle where the coal is – on the island south of the horses. There is a second supply in the isle, and an iron works site there.
Sell Arabs our Camels for 22 gpt, Siam gets Elephants and Incense for 22 gpt as well.

IBT: We get Grand Strategy from Pedia

610AD: Sheeptown:Factory->library, Dover:Shrine->Major Port, Birmingham:Windmill->Bazaar

Crap, Siam beat us to ToE by a turn. Found Bath to get the second coal, Iron works spot is still open (requires plant forest), reup horses for tobacco and 44 gpt with Siam (cut off luxes for a while to slow down tech), Leister:forge->granary, Coventry: granary->windmill, Warwick:townclock->bazaar, Dover:Major Port->Townclock, Norwich: granary->colonist

620AD: Nottingham: Windmill->Colonist, Sheeptown:Library->Prison (pre-build for Coal Plant (don’t have Coal hooked up yet), Bristol->port, colonist

Sell ToE to Brennus for 1450, Send Polynesia a couple luxes to see if it helps his econ along. Same with Gandhi. They are both trading with Brennus, so next time we declare on Brennus, need to buy everyone else in and get embargos to starve Brennus of luxes.

630AD: London:Factory->Univ, Berwick:harbor->port, Ravenna: port->granary, Leeds:Colonist->granary, Lambsburg->toll house->laborer, Cambridge:granary->counselor, Newcastle:harbor->port, Manchester->granary_.forge. Carlisle:granary->courthouse, Bath:harbor->port,

sell Polynesia saltpeter for 17 gpt in case Brennus comes calling.

640AD: Leicester:granary->harbor, NoCoal:bazaar->granary, Hamadan:bazaar->shrine, Oxford:bazaar->granary

Trade Arabs ToE for furs and 12gpt. Siam has Steel.

650AD: York: Supreme Court->Factory, Berwick: port->granary, Ravenna:granary->CH, Brighton:bazaar->shrine, Birmingham:bazaar->temple, Newcastle: port->granary, Carlisle:CH->forge, Bath: port->granary

London should have a good shot at Darwin after he finishes his Coal Plant and University (join a laborer to get him to an even twenty pop), Nottingham is about to pop a Hardy to settle the ret of the jungle –we’ll be able to clear it soon, so good time to get a city started. Place it so that it can reach both mountains. I’ve been running min research and buying infra to get all the new cities started, including buying colonists on the horse isle to settle the coal isle (this allows the main isle to get max use of its GA pop – pls continue to work max number of shield producing tiles so we can get main isle up to speed on infra – long way to go, but good progress made.

We do not need to war until after GA! Celts learned one whole tech during my set and are well behind the Siamese. Siam has slowed down since I cut off their luxes. Pls continue to get infra established on main ilse during GA. Once we can rail, we will be in good shape. Pls keep Leicester and Lambsburg around, as they will be handy for milking the many workers we will need soon to rail and clear jungle. Don’t be afraid to skim a hardy off of a productive city to settle and abandon (clearing jungle).

Since ports are half price for us (as are fisheries!), they are our cheapest culture build.

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 02:28 AM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/large.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/supreme.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-650AD.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Coalisle.JPG

romeothemonk

Mar 31, 2005, 08:15 AM

I didn't see selling District courts in your log Bez. We should do this in all cities that already have either a palace or a "FP".
Good turns, if uneventful.

ThERat

Mar 31, 2005, 09:36 AM

won't finish turns today, but am at turn 7, the Celts have eradicated the Persians and are starting to run away in culture, they now make double of that of Siam (2nd). we must stop them soon, preparations for war should start sooner. Both Siam and Celts have tonnes of money, razing towns will gain us a lot of money.

And ToE is in 6, Celts also in 6 :eek:

romeothemonk

Mar 31, 2005, 10:09 AM

I think our plan should be to build up a fleet of veteran Man'O'Wars. I mean ~20 of them, and then have a clipper full of Marines, Leathernecks, etc.
With this force, I can almost assuredly cripple the Celts in 10 turns. I say "I can" because I think it will take some time (~10-15 turns) to build up the needed force, but if we have the force already, I am more than happy to let Sanabas pull the trigger. I just happen to be kinda bloodthirsty every now and again. :)
How is our Military doing? Do we have enough units? As soon as we have Vets, we should keep them everywhere, as they upgrade very nicely. I doubt we need more mounted units, but we will need a lot more foot units.
@ThERat, can we sabotage their production? Declare and bombard their tiles? Do any more lux prevention at all?
We may need to sell incense to the Siamese, as they lack it.
Just some random ramblings, I have developed a trust of the teams excellant playing skills.

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 12:55 PM

Siam has incense, but is down two luxes from when I received the game. These can be used to lure her back into war with Brennus, if necessary. DC's are sold in London and York, but remains in Canterbury, where it does some good.

If we just keep our eye on the ball for ten more turns, it should be smooth sailing. This involves finishing what I call "the basics" before diving in on units precipitously. The basics = all current production boosters (hospitals and prisons can slide if need be), enough happiness to get WTLK, if necessary, the cheap lux, tax, and sci boosters (toll house, bazaar, academy, library, SoS), granary, and Major Port, if necessary.

If we sacrifice these to build 8 turn units, we will lose. Also, pls do not neglect to develop the Coal Isle with generous amounts of rushing, as it can contribute quite a bit to our empire with its size. With counselors and supreme court, any city can be productive.

We don't need ToE, as if Celts get it, we get the techs! Only good for denial, and if we need an army, let's build that instead of optional wonders. On the other hand, I'd like to get research going again until we get rails, refrigeration, and City Planning, as all are essential for further development, and ToE would get us rails immediately.

At the point that we have the above techs, we could allow pedia to carry us through a war. I disagree that we need a "lot" more foot units. We need primarily a squad of the 4 ROF Man-o-War's and 10-20 Colonial Marines.

Sheeptown, York, and Canterbury should be able to crank out the majority of this force. Pls do not forget Shipyards before constructing our fleet, as naval battles should lie ahead. Yippee! :D

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 01:02 PM

If we declare on Brennus, we should be able to buy in the world, cutting off all his lux imports, though he should have several domestically. We need to be careful, however, because if he takes some of our farflung cities, WW could be a problem. I'd wait until the 20 turns are up, for instance, to reduce WW.

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 02:48 PM

BTW, we now have a quartermaster on our team! :eek:

Congrats, Sanabas!

[party]

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 03:16 PM

Note: When I speak of Gandhi in the above report, apparently I was speaking with Siam - the leaderhead threw me!

LKendter

Mar 31, 2005, 04:04 PM

BTW, we now have a quartermaster on our team! :eek:

Congrats, Sanabas!

[party]

What is a quartermaster?

ThERat

Mar 31, 2005, 05:04 PM

On the other hand, I'd like to get research going again until we get rails, refrigeration, and City Planning, as all are essential for further development, and ToE would get us rails immediately.
we were doing min research on espionage when Siam got that, scratched it and went full steam ahead for RR techs, getting the first required tech in 5 turns (at turn 7: 2 more turns are needed) and nobody else has it. plan too sell it for cash. both Siam and Celts own around 20k.

as for rushing, I tried to rush builds in the following manner: let city build one turn, then cash rush via a cheaper build to complete next turn. of course due to the immense amount of imropvements available it all seems a little overwhelming and it's hard to chose what to build. I went primarily for shield boosters in main Island (plus the missing docks) and for corruption reduction in the fringe towns. I sent 2 elephants over to coal Island to road it.

Will build shipyard and start cranking out some MoW. Also build marines, that can be upgraded later on).

Bezhukov

Mar 31, 2005, 06:01 PM

BTW, Iron Island still had a few city spots left when I left the game. Once we get our cheap fisheries, any coastal location can become a monster (forests can be mined and railed to produce 4 shields). Pay special attention to food bonuses reachable by these cities.

Once we can plant forests, we can set up an Iron Works city location on the Coal Island and use our immense wealth to get it up to speed quickly. Good job, ThERat with the rushes - sounds good.

ThERat

Apr 01, 2005, 05:49 AM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1_750AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
once those elephants finish roading that mountain will send them to our islands to road
there are no other suggestions so found one city on the spot

IT learn steel
many builds finish, continue to do so

1.660AD
settle another town, we can later squeeze in one more at the lake/apple

IT Persia and Siam sign against Polynesia

2.670AD
found Liverpool

IT London finishes uni, go for ToE in 10

3 680AD
Siam is the tech leader and the other can't follow
we should later take them out via sea strikes
feel we need to increase science to follow, up to 80 and we get tech in 4

IT we get quite a few border expansions

4. 690AD
Siam now knows espionage, what a waste
we actually want RR, so go for steam in 5 since Siam also doesn't have it

IT Polynesia and Siam sign peace
Celts destroy Persians

5.700AD
MM

IT we learn social darwinism

6.710AD

IT Celts start ToE as well

7.720AD
peep at dublin, ToE in 6, we will also get it in 6, well well
start 1 turn production of Marines in Sheeptown
continue to rush counsellors and other cheaper builds

IT see Celts attack Hua Hin on iron Island, we might be able to settle there as well

8. 730AD
Siam now has steam just a turn before we get it
realise we can't sabotage Celts since we lack espionage, steal it from Siam for 930g and sell the tech to Celts
for 1850g. what a nice deal
change Sheeptown to shipyard, it can provide the MoW in 1 turn each
(it had a sheep polluted up to now so wasn't able to pull 120spt)

IT we get steam, next is high explosives for RR in 5 turns at -47gpt
York finishes coal plant (now at an odd 129spt)
set to build IA (or maybe Taj Mahal?)
Arabs finish Clausewitz

9. 740AD
we will get medicine next turn
Siam has electricity (in 1 turn :eek: )
sell Celts steam for 1890g

IT Arabs and Siam sign mutual protection
Celt and Arabs as well, Arabs demand a lux, refuse and they bugger off
:lol: Arabs declare on Celts (was wondering already since Celts and Siam are at war)
get medicine

10.750AD
we have a lot of money to spend (3000g), left it to next player to decide. I also did not MM in detail this round since it would depend
on the rushes we make
I went through every town every turn to adjust and shortrush (use cheaper builds and make up with shields)

If I am not wrong Siam is doing 1 turn research at the moment
we have now 3 MoW, but only 1 marine
Sheeptown is at 120spt churning out MoW, we need to assign towns for marines, canterbury a target with RR we can get it to 100spt
(currently at 91spt)
there is a settler I left unmoved at our coal Isle, next player to decide where to settle, suggest the lake location

currently Siam is tech run away and Celts culture runaway (17000 with 378cpt)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez1750.jpg

ThERat

Apr 01, 2005, 06:00 AM

by the way, if we are confident to get ToE, we should switch off research for the time being, it's due in 3, maybe we could check Dublin again first and then switch off research?

romeothemonk

Apr 01, 2005, 08:31 AM

Nice turns ThERat. I would continue the military buildup, and possibly sabotage the ToE.
I think Sanabas is up.
BTW good job on the Quatermaster status Sanabas. That is an awful lot of HoF games.

Bezhukov

Apr 01, 2005, 08:32 AM

Smart playing, ThERat! It's highly unlikely Siam is doing one turn research, though its clear they are making the coin that belongs in our coffers from selling tech to the laggards. We need them strong the prevent a culture win for Brennus while we are whittling him down - there's no way Siam can keep up long term in tech with no more cities than he has, so no big long term threat.

Given our income, if we can keep him at war with Brennus (preventing him from feeding Brennus tech), having Siam ahead in tech increases our strategic options, so also not a pressing problem. Hopefully, Brennus will have to flush those ToE shields.

Pls settle coal isle city on the coast (where apple can still be reached. Cheap fisheries are our friend, as is the double SEA/COM bonus. What do we have, 30 cities? That's 60 extra base commerce at town size, and even more for cities and metros!

Bezhukov

Apr 01, 2005, 09:09 AM

Anyone more familiar with war than I know how the WW clock functions? How long do we have to wait until memory of the last war fades? Would still be a good idea to lure Brennus into declaring on us. Also of great importance - trade embargos against Brennus are coming up for renewal in the next turn or two - keeping these going (and getting new ones signed) are of paramount importance to winning this game.

ThERat

Apr 01, 2005, 09:22 AM

and possibly sabotage the ToE well, that's why i took the risk and stole espionage, then realised we need to build IA first :crazyeye: stupid me. anyway, Dublin was at no growth when I checked and we can actually get ToE, I think. might want to check again next turn to be sure. we should then switch off research for the time being and get explosives and the next most expensive tech. I would sell them to both Siam and Celts to get their money.

romeothemonk

Apr 01, 2005, 09:45 AM

I have a couple of questions for the team on WW.
1) Did we even have WW from the 1st Celtic War?? We didn't lose a city and lost only a hanful of units.
2) If we did have WW, was it bad? could we control it with lux up 1 notch?
Questions for anyone knowledgable
1) Can WW bring down Democracy in RaR?
2) I read somewhere that WW needs between 20-40 turns to reset depending on government in C3C. Does this pertain to RaR? If so how long for each government?
3) What governments can WW bring down in RaR? (WW can bring down Demo in C3C).

Bezhukov

Apr 01, 2005, 09:53 AM

Things would have to be pretty bad to bring down the government. We have East India, bazaars in many cities, and tons of luxes. We should also be getting Emancipation from the Pedia sometime soon, which will kill all our Slave Markets, so we've got a lot of room to work with.

Short to medium term, WW would just be an annoyance that makes maintaining WLTQ days more difficult. If Brennus manages to take out a couple of our lightly defended overseas possesions, it could get worse quickly, but a lot would have to go wrong before the government was close to threatened. Luring him to declare would also make a lot of this even more unlikely.

Bezhukov

Apr 02, 2005, 01:58 PM

Romeo (on deck)
Bez
ThERat
Sanabas (up!)

Doc +T_McC (advice welcome, take a spin if desired) :)

sanabas

Apr 02, 2005, 06:32 PM

Got it. Don't know if WW can bring down the govt, it can certainly get bad enough to force us to change it, when 80% lux still can't quell disorder. WW on Sid is moslty either non-existent or crippling, there's not much middle ground.

sanabas

Apr 03, 2005, 03:17 AM

750: T of E is due in 3 turns, High Explosives in 4, which is very wasteful. I investigate Dublin, they also have T of E due in 3, so I can't slow down London's production. We'll get the Celt's T of E techs via Encyclopedie, so I switch research to Electricity for Edison's workshop, and switch London to Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for Edison's. Gives us 100% science bonus, and should give 2 monopoly techs to get a lot of cash out of the 2 powerhouses. I also switch Canterbury to International Port, so it can work the rest of its hills.

IBT: Extend peace treaty with Polynesia

760: zzz

770: Get reminded we can't build cities on Tundra. Oops

IBT: Renew lux with arabs, we give tea, dyes & 580 gold, they give cotton & spices. We want to starve Celts & Siam of luxes, the smaller civs need the help though.
Celts want a MPP :lol:
Celts build T of E, take High Explosives & Electricity
Siam builds Taj Mahal

780: Reading founded

790: We get Electricity, Social Contract, Replaceable Parts
Richmond founded
Sell Celts social contract for WM & 500 gold

800: Celts build universal Suffrage

IBT: Renew with Siam, we give Elephants & Incense for 20 gpt
Renew with Arabs, we give Camel for 18 gpt

810: We get Grand War
London builds Edison's, we take Repeating Rifle & the uber-expensive Realpolitik, start researching corporation
High Explosives is due from Encyc next turn, so I won't trade for it.
We give Grand War & R. Rifle to Celts for 4750 gold
R. Rifle to Siam for 3000 gold
Realpolitik to Celts for 12100 gold
Realpolitik to Siam for Sanitation & 1800 gold
Sanitation to Celts for 1300 gold
Ipswich founded
Upgrade 1 colonial marine, 4 line infantry

820: We get High Explosives
Birmingham starts Winter Palace

IBT: Renew Horse deal with Siam, we give Horses for Tobacco & 40 gpt

830: York builds Intelligence Agency
1 Musket, 2 'phants upgraded

IBT: Polynesia wants to renew saltpetre deal, but can only afford 1 gpt, so it ends

840: Lose furs, give arabs replaceable parts for Furs, WM, 67 gold & 48 gpt
1 Tribal guard upgraded

850: Golden Age ends

Canterbury is about to finish IP, Birmingham is building Winter Palace, this can easily be switched somewhere else if there's a better city for it. Our 3rd District courthouse finishes next turn, letting us build Supreme Court, Sheeptown is on a prebuild for it.

We should get a monopoly on Corporation next turn, I was aiming for Crystal Palace, we may want to switch to Fed Republic as Statue of Liberty is available in 1 or 2 techs time on the road to Crystal Palace.

Celts may be about to invade Iron Town, if they do we have no WW probs, and should be able to get the rest of the world to join in immediately. We have stacks of cash for rushing military or infra too. Cavalry & Riflemen are available, I've started upgrading, RR being built will make it easier to finish upgrading. All those 'phants look much nicer as Cavs.

Siam is definitely not doing 1-turn research, we are the tech leaders at the moment. Celts have kindly donated most of their cash to us, Siam still has plenty, but their empire is too small to be a big threat.

ThERat

Apr 03, 2005, 04:13 AM

R. Rifle to Siam for 3000 gold
Realpolitik to Celts for 12100 gold
Realpolitik to Siam for Sanitation & 1800 gold
Sanitation to Celts for 1300 gold :lol: very nicely done let's milk the AI's and use for our own builds :goodjob:

romeothemonk

Apr 03, 2005, 08:33 AM

Got it. Will See what damage I can do.

Bezhukov

Apr 03, 2005, 08:48 AM

"District courthouse finishes next turn, letting us build Supreme Court, Sheeptown is on a prebuild for it."

Um, did you miss my screenie? :lol:

Good turns O/W - quartermaster Sanabas.

Romeo, we are in a strong position (although Sanabas did not mention the culture situation). Let's make sure we've got some defenses up in our overseas possesions before jumping into war.

sanabas

Apr 03, 2005, 09:21 AM

Smeg. Forgot I'd seen the screenie, missed the Supreme Court, I only went looking for District courts, which i assume you sold off again, which explains why I couldn't find them. Sorry guys. The rushed district court can probably be changed to something else decent.

Didn't look at culture that closely, Celts are still out in front, but a fair way from a culture win. Don't know what we think about victory conditions, if we want a diplo win via league of nations we'll definitely get it before any culture wins.

Yep, defense build up before war please, although the celts may be about to force one. We've got riflemen available now, we've still got plenty of cash for rushing (15k+, we might still be over 20k). A few MoW rushes on our west coast will be very helpful if war starts too.

Bezhukov

Apr 03, 2005, 11:25 AM

MoW's 4 RoF makes him good for bombardment long after comparable ships are obsolete. However, he'll soon be encountering ships that can tear him a new one in battle, so be prepared, and ATAR Clippers can run rings around him.

romeothemonk

Apr 03, 2005, 03:39 PM

Well, I have played some of my turns. We NEED to go to war in the next ten turns. If the next player is uncomfortable pulling the trigger, I will pull the trigger on turn 10.
I will finish my turns in about 6 hours. I have sufficient forces now to pursue a war, but it may leave the next person nervous. We have ~15 Man'O'Wars on turn 8 and some 1 turn unit factories pumping full steam. This will not look at all like LK96.
Please weigh in whether you would want me to start the war, or if you want another 5-7 turns before we start. WE NEED WAR ASAP, the Celts are running away and will have a cultural victory in less than 100 turns.

Bezhukov

Apr 03, 2005, 04:14 PM

We trust you, Romeo, even if playing with you is at times like having a tiger by the tail. If you are seeking consensus, some figures would be helpful. Size/composition of Celtic navy, prospects for bringing in the world against them, Celtic garrisons on our islands, culture per turn for Celts and Siamese, how much firepower we currently have (marines), how well defended our coastal cities are, what the war aims are and the necessary resources to secure these aims, etc...

ThERat

Apr 03, 2005, 07:43 PM

go fight them, try and raze as much as possible including those culture monster core cities. hope we have our iron and horse Islands secured with defense. good luck

romeothemonk

Apr 03, 2005, 09:48 PM

IHT: We already own the Supreme court. Swap some builds around to our military plan. Swap london to the Holy City for Happy help. Swap Sheeptown to Prison, swap york to Hospital. Swap other cities to production help.
Turn 1: Some builds finish. The Celts are nearing runaway status, and we are really not doing anything to stop them. The Celts appear to be headed to attack Siam. Jumbos can clear jungle, start some on it. Research to City planning. Trade corporation for a lot of gold.
Turn 2: Rushing production enhancers like mad. WAR IS NOT AN OPTION BUT A MUST IN THE NEXT 30 TURNs. The Celts do not have long to a 50K win.
Turn 3: Pumping Military. Sheeptown is a 1-turn Manowar factory, London now does 1 turn rifles. York is building the Mil academy. Spending cash like a drunken sailor on production enhancements, building workers at our hopeless towns up north.
Turn 4: More rushing and uprading our capacity to fight.
Turn 5: Sell Salt to Arabs for 32 gpt. Give Siam 4 luxes to prop up their econ for 16 gpt.
Turn 6: Same as above,
Turn 7: Same as above.
Turn 8: Get city planning, sell to Siam for 4000 gold, can start rushing again. We finally have 2 1 turn RR stacks.
Turn 9: Sell advanced mettalurgy to the Arabs for a lot of cash. I use privateers to sink a celtic galleon and get a prize ship, Lose a privateer to another galleon. The Arabs have been slowly moving some canoes by our shore. I think I shall snag some prizes
Turn 10: Sink an Arab canoe get a prize ship, disband for shields. After I investigate Parsagarde,
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-11.jpg
I try to plant a Spy. This happens.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-21.jpg
Kill a rifle and a cav in Dairish Kaibur, lose 2 leathernecks attacking cavs. Weird. York builds the Mil Academy starts 1 turn rifles. Sink a galleon by bombarding parasagarde. Exeter has a good portion of our navy, with other parts in cambridge
I wasn't trying for war, I thought a spy would be really useful and we had a good chance at planting him.
For war thoughts, we can get 2 turn leathernecks with canterbury, or we can work london a little bit to get 1 turn leathernecks. I would keep Sheeptown on 1 turn Man'o'wars for a long time yet. I have been and would continue to rush units on outlying cities. I have two cavs moving south to our iron island where a reg clipper awaits. We could really use those cavs to trim the excess units the celts have down there. Something to consider is we could have the rifleman in irontown attack the cuirasser. I would continue to just try and chip away at the sides of the empire. I would sign in a world allaince against the Celts. The Celts are at 25,000 culture and are making 483 cpt. I have not seen much of a Celt navy. All the navy I saw is at the bottom of the pond.
Good luck next player.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-31.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-950_AD.SAV

romeothemonk

Apr 03, 2005, 10:56 PM

A couple of more thoughts.
1) We can short rush leathernecks in our 1 turn rifle cities. Might be worth considering.
2) I calculate the Celts can build ~15 units per turn, we must do our part to make sure that they slaughtered. I have us making 5 units per turn, we need ~ a 3:1 kill ratio a doable process.
3) I would rush a lot of units. We probably want ~ 5-6 cavs on our mainland for landing control.
4) RR'ing a tile at york, canterbury, London or Sheeptown resuslts in either 3 or 4 spt gain. I really think we want to get London up to 140 spt. During my turns I thought it more important to get a transcontinental railroad than get more shields in the core, but I would now go for core enhancement.
5) After Refrig I would really consider shutting research off for a while to really cash rush units.
6) Liester is a 3 turn worker pump. Please do not change it.
7) I would raze small Coastal celt cities and bring the workers back so we can use the free labor.
8) I sold the rax in York as we don't need it with the summer palace.

romeothemonk

Apr 03, 2005, 11:49 PM

Just because insomnia struck I decided to shadow off the end of my turns. Due to some questionable moves in other games, I started to lose some confidence. Lets just say that my confidence is back, and in a big way now.
I will just say that I had some significant military sucesses. Very Significant, even if I dare say my best military sucesses in C3C, all while overcoming the RNG. I feel really good about this game.

If this is too much spoiler, I will retract.

Bezhukov

Apr 04, 2005, 12:08 AM

I've already made clear where I believe the questions lie in the other games you speak of, Romeo, and they are not with your warwongering. ;)

Now that AW game on the other hand, well, AW is a different thing, and paradoxically rewards somewhat methodical play. Likewise, given our civ's strengths here and trading position, war was not necessary for our own gain, so could be deferred until we had a commanding position. I imagine Brennus has been sinking a lot of his Sidshields into Opera Houses these past few sets and could be ripe for the picking.

Well done on Leicester - that is exactly the use I had in mind for him. Puzzled that you speak of our northern cities as useless, we shouldn't have any useless cities with our COM trait and the Supreme Court. Has Emancipation come in yet? If not, just disband the Slave Markets and use WLTQ days to redeem "useless" cities.

You said that London built the Holy City for happiness help. Why does London of all places need help with happiness? I usually like to build the Holy City some places that can use its corruption reduction. And last but not least - I know Lethernecks are not supposed to lose to Cav, but that's what MoW's are for - to keep the RNG honest!

;)

All piddling things - overall well done, and your urgency is appreciated.

Bezhukov

Apr 04, 2005, 12:11 AM

Romeo (cooling his heels)
DocTS (what better time to take the helm?)
Bezhukov (should Doc decline)
ThERat (star of the game up to this point)
Sanabas (our tireless quartermaster)

Let's bring 'er home, men!

romeothemonk

Apr 04, 2005, 08:51 AM

When I got the game, London was evenly split between happy and unhappy. losing a lux, or any WW at all would take out our best city. Rather than let a marginal large project finish I went for immeadiate happy help.
Emancipation has not come in, and I do not expect it for a while yet. The really sad thing about losing leathernecks to cavs was that the cavs were bombed. My spoiler info contains no specific information yet, but even in my shadow shadow game I saw 1 or 2 hp 5 defense units defeat a full health vet leatherneck.
After the next player posts, I will say what I did.
According to my warplans as I posted in LK96, This is THE time to strike and strike hard and fast. If the Celts get bombers of any type, this game could get really ugly. We want to flush their government back to fundie, so they cannot research.
To take out the other civs, they all have 1-2 noncoastal cities and I am thinking that a conquest is possible.
These turns were as deliberate as I could make them, with every decision being weighed and factored in the war sense. I really worked to get these set up as good war prep turns, and hopefully it will show.
When I refer to useless cities, I mean any city without a rax or shipyard. Theses cities on average produce between 10-20 shields, are building longterm projects, and are/were guarded by spears and archers. I tried to fix as much as I could, but it will be key to note that our northern front needs war improvements as well as improved units.
Elephants can clear jungle, and I would try and get all the phants we can back to our main to clear that gigantic jungle mess we have.

romeothemonk

Apr 04, 2005, 09:10 AM

I've already made clear where I believe the questions lie in the other games you speak of, Romeo, and they are not with your warwongering. ;)
The problem with all games lies with Balance. I cannot balance warmongering and mass building projects at high levels of difficulty. This is due to the fact that the shields required for effective warring require all the focus of the empire. To build effectively you need all your shields or you will fall behind. The only real middle ground I have found is to have 1 city building military and production the whole game, but no one seems to follow that. Even then I have noticed a great reluctance of everyone else to upgrade units, which is critical at higher levels. Especially with your economic playstyle, the goal should be to sink as few shields into military as possible, and use your excess gold to keep the military current.
I was slightly perturbed when I took over my turnset and I found that other than the few units listed by ThERat our military was unchanged. We still had great galleas, right next to shipyards that were unupgraded. We still had a city guarded by a reg archer. I had a 1-turn mil factory set up, to put a vet topline defender in every city on our main. This was broken within 2-3 turns, as the amount of troops we gained was minimal. No troops were even upgraded.
I guess my job is to be the f3 advisor for this team. I think that in this war we should have no problem focusing on military now, but it was not my intention to start the war, but the timing is perfect.

I imagine Brennus has been sinking a lot of his Sidshields into Opera Houses these past few sets and could be ripe for the picking.

With our current situation we want brennus building cavs not opera houses. The threat to us is not military but culture. We do not want him building culture. We want him building military, as we can through superior tactics beat that but we cannot, however hard we try beat his culture. We need to hit him with a really big rock.
"Diplomacy is the art of saying Nice Doggie until you find a rock" Will Rogers.
There is a time for everything but now the time is irrevocably for war.

Bezhukov

Apr 04, 2005, 01:37 PM

I'll have to look at the save first, but if London is having happiness problems at 10%lux rate, when we have East India, something is amiss. Temples and Basilicas are decent investments when they can be built in one turn.

If I wanted to go for conquest, a would not have chosen the English. Pax Brittanica, baby! As long as we get to be in the lead. :evil:

Dittos on the dedicated mil city - I like those too. Let me nominate Nottingham - we do have City Planning now, correct? Should be able to fix his food nicely now.

And anyone who wants to build Opera Houses can be my guest, they are grossly inefficent for whatever purpose. :lol:

romeothemonk

Apr 04, 2005, 02:09 PM

We cannot fix anyone's food/shields as we are so underworkered it hurts. I have been using our workers to get a rudimentary railroad network up.
Nottingham is a long way from being a full military town.
To be a military city, it must be able to build a topline military unit in 1 turn.
In war almost all cities must be on full military.
If we were at peace, one of the 3 following cities can be a military city, but no others. London, York, Sheeptown. There are no others that have the production, and almost none that can get there.
DO NOT WASTE WORKER TURNS ON PIPEDREAMS.
We need shields in the core to do 1 turn leathernecks. End of story.
Peace is not an option, nor will it be until the Celts are a memory.
Besides, the Celts and British are well known friends in history. :rolleyes:
If I recall in history, there was never a Pax Brittania. In fact I can hardly find a 15 year period of peace after 1500. The Military and commercial parts of the English Empire developed together, and the British were never afraid to subjugate other nations if the situation called for it. (See India, America, Canada, Australia, Afganistan, South Africa, etc.)

ThERat

Apr 05, 2005, 12:42 AM

Bez, your going to take your turns right? not waiting for someone who hasn't even signalled that he would ever join. keep the steam rolling now that the game got very hot

romeothemonk

Apr 05, 2005, 09:32 AM

Hehe, I think he doesn't want to jump right in after me. :)
I know Bez is up in several other games at the moment and that may be why he is waiting.

Bezhukov

Apr 05, 2005, 10:19 AM

Doc said he might come over when he was feeling better, but Romeo is right, I'm up in several games right now and not feeling so good myself. I'll see what I can do.

ThERat

Apr 05, 2005, 10:39 AM

want to swap with me, but I would play tomorrow night here, since it's now too late.

ThERat (star of the game up to this point) what's the meaning here? :confused:

Bezhukov

Apr 05, 2005, 10:46 AM

I think you've played the best of any of us, and would therefore welcome a swap - just make sure to get the whole world allied against the Celts, especially trade embargos - Brennus needs clowns!

Ten more turns of military from our best cities sounds right - then they need to start in on the wonder pre-req builds. I'll take that duty.

ThERat

Apr 05, 2005, 10:49 AM

I think you've played the best of any of us, and would therefore welcome a swap - just make sure to get the whole world allied against the Celts, especially trade embargos - Brennus needs clowns! ok try my best though I don't think any of us plays better or worse, a good team basically.

romeothemonk

Apr 05, 2005, 11:23 AM

I agree on the team aspects.
I see us like a soccer team in this game. ThERat is playing as striker and thus gets the glory of scoring the big goals, and getting the interviews on ESPN. Sanabas and Bezhukov are playing midfield/center, running up and down the pitch, keeping us in the game and keeping the game under control, but to the untrained eye, they aren't moving the ball forward much. I see myself as the defenseman who job is to knock senseless the poor saps that come to hard towards the goal. I haven't got us a red card this game, and I don't plan to.
I forsee short rushed leathernecks everywhere, along with a major infusion of Celtic workers. We really want to make the Celts swap their wonder builds to units because we are hurting them that badly.
I think I explained my unit pumps fairly well, but can go over them again if needed. Bring out the torches.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2005, 11:26 AM

This invasion will be interesting to watch. All the expanded borders in the world won't protect coastal cities from invasions. I would gladly trade the one unit that lands for a dead city.

Just made sure you have enough ships to take the new labor force home. ;)

Bezhukov

Apr 05, 2005, 12:06 PM

"ok try my best though I don't think any of us plays better or worse, a good team basically."

Recognizing your merit does not imply my demerit, indeed the ability to recognize merit and acknowledge it where warranted is a merit in its own right. ;)

Consdering that I never intentionally fought a war before tanks (in all my games from CivI to Civ III, and I won fairly regularly on Deity level) until conquests came out and made me fight, perhaps I'm also a bit wary that my war-fighting skills are up to Sid snuff. So I'll be watching and cheering and learning here.

LKendter

Apr 05, 2005, 12:46 PM

Recognizing your merit does not imply my demerit, indeed the ability to recognize merit and acknowledge it where warranted is a merit in its own right. ;)

I think one of the keys is to learn each player's strength. Few players are excellent in every area. For me builder is my bigger strength. Trading is my other big strength. OTOH I don't like war as much, and feel I am a poor fighter in the early age before rails and artillery. I personally hate ancient age wars at higher levels before the AI had burned their troops up.

Playing on each persons strength's is a key to a good SG.

Bezhukov

Apr 05, 2005, 12:53 PM

"I personally hate ancient age wars at higher levels before the AI had burned their troops up."

This may be more intuitive strategic insight than tactical failing.

ThERat

Apr 05, 2005, 06:28 PM

funny Romeo, you assigned me a striker. In my whole soccer career (which was my first big passion in life and lasted for about 20 years - playing in clubs, pub teams etc.) I was always a defender, sweeping and marking, not being in the limelight like a striker.

In Civ however, I like the strikes, if they are well executed. Played 3 turns last night, rushed troops and got London to 140spt. I took out 3 towns so far and mainly securing the Islands. It seems our small northeastern Island has become Celt's favourite dropping zone. With sufficient leathernecks and MoW, will now go for the culture monster coastal towns. I will check F7 for wonder cities and eliminate them. Planted a spy to check on things before making moves.

By the way, I signed in Polynesia and India as well (the other 2 were fighting Celt's already).
Let's say Siam decides to make peace, shall we go for an alliance or simply embargo? An alliance might tie us to war for too long. Not too sure here.

Bezhukov

Apr 05, 2005, 07:07 PM

Since Romeo did so well in getting the Celts to declare on us, I'd say we can manage a 30 turn war, which should also be enough time to cripple them nicely. Definitely go ahead and ink embargos/tie up luxes right now while we've got all their attention. I would also hold off on sending the Siamese any more luxes, as that gooses their tech rate.

romeothemonk

Apr 05, 2005, 09:12 PM

It sounds like your plan is following the shadow turns that I had, especially with the landing on the Island with Ravenna.
In Soccer, not really a passion of mine but something I do decently, I always played as a defender or a striker, but usually draw penalties. I have a tendancy to mixup American Football with "football". :) They put me in goal, and I have the honor of delivering some bone jarring hits to foolish crossing strikers in the box. :evil:
Keep up the heat, and bring up our foreign worker count.

sanabas

Apr 05, 2005, 10:42 PM

Midfielder? Sounds good, virtual running up and down suits me well. I play hockey, but in goals, I run to the edge of my circle and no more. Same when I played gridiron (u.s. football), lineman all the way.

These SGs are slowly getting me to war in the AA/early MA. My current hof game on Sid I'm running an ancient cav war, which is probably a first for me. I much prefer economic build up followed by smiting the heathens with masses of cavalry/tanks. Annexations rather than wars.

Naval dominance + amphibious leathernecks with artillery/MoW bombardment support = Celtic pain.

I think, but I could be wrong, that the war happiness from the celts declaring will only last 20 turns if we're the aggressors during the war. I've done similar in the past, goading someone in, and all was good until turn 21 when crippling war weariness struck. So if others sign peace with Brennus, embargo only is probably the way to go.

romeothemonk

Apr 05, 2005, 11:09 PM

I would also say embargo only at this point then. I would try and have a privateer or two by the Siamese if they sign peace as I like prize ships :)
The guys that aren't living in the U.S. know American sports, so I didn't have to use Soccer for metaphors anymore.
I would let the war rage as long as possible, as I am in favor of 50% lux if we can continue razing cities.

sanabas

Apr 05, 2005, 11:57 PM

Yep, RaR privateers rock. C3C privateers can barely kill anything, RaR can attack and sink any ship until destroyers start appearing. 37 shields for sinking canoes is great.

ThERat

Apr 06, 2005, 12:07 AM

I would also say embargo only at this point then. I would try and have a privateer or two by the Siamese if they sign peace as I like prize ships ok, noted since I signed India and Polynesia in on my inherited turn, it should be fine.
I sank a canoe already for a prize ship, which can rush part of a leatherneck. I would continue to do so, since the AI has the tendency to start useless landings. That said, Siam came with an amphibious assault on Pasargadea and we could conveniently razed it with 1 unit next turn :lol:

Doc Tsiolkovski

Apr 06, 2005, 06:29 AM

Sorry folks, I can't join for the moment; my HDD is on its last legs, I'm spending my time trying to rescue data (Dell :mad: )...

ThERat

Apr 06, 2005, 09:26 AM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-1050AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
orientation needed, ok we need more leathernecks
rush 2 units, we need London and York on 140spt
sign in India and Polynesia for a tech each

IT nth much

1. 960AD
we will get thermodynamic next turn
privateer get prize ship for a canoe :lol:
attack and kill some units near irontown

IT get refrigeration and thermo as predicted

2.970AD
can't take Darius Kabir just yet
sell Siam refrigeration for 2700g for more rushing

IT need to renew lux deal with Arabs for a tech
Brighton riots altough there are more happy than unhappy citizens, weird

Darius Kabir falls
kill a landing up north
on another Island raze Rhonda

IT see Siam attack Pasegardea and kill a unit

[B]4 990AD
successfully plant a spy with Celts
check F7 and the major targets are due to multiple wonders : Rome (emancipation proclamation etc), Geneva (Gutenberg's etc), Pyrene (Bach's etc)
Dublin (some wonders)

attack Pasargadea and raze it including Colossus
start to bombard Tarsus, only 2 defenders. lose a neck but raze it and net 6 slaves
take out a Cav settler pair netting us 3 slaves

IT we get more landings, 4 units on main Island and 4 on northern town
we learn refining
Global warming turns one of our jungle tiles into a BG :)

5 .1000AD
need to deal with 8 units in our land first, defeat 4 units on mainland taking out clipper as well, but manage to take only 1 unit in the north
we need more units there, but it's hard to reach
raze Arabela, rescue on slave, pick up the 2 landed necks from last turn
we will learn emancipation next turn and our spt will drop
change London to park since we won't be able to pull 1 turn neck from there

IT a lux deal is up with Siam do not renew, but see that they lack coal and oil
since we are at it, sell elephants for 8 gpt with an embargo versus Celts
renew camel deal with Arabs and lose a rifle in
we learn emancipation and Screw propeller (no more MoW)
people love us now

6.1100AD
no more new techs visible from Siam
found Portsmouth and capture Iona (it had their only oil for the time being!!!)
raze Susa and net 7 slaves
manage to raze Budapest (size 20) but lose 3 necks in the process, evacuate 6 workers, the stays behind (3)

IT we lose a neck at former Susa

7.1020AD
clearing a unit in Ravenna
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11020.jpg
use it to immediately rush National Monument in our IP city Canterbury
bombardment of Cardiff shows we can raze another town, we need more clippers for worker recovery
manage to raze Cardiff

IT leatherneck survives attack this time
the Celts have some new colonists waiting to resettle their land, we have to go for biger cities first though

8.1030AD
WW starts to kick in now due to some unit losses I guess, increase lux to 20%
attack Milan, lose elite leatherneck, but raze town
next target will be inner cities like Geneva, pull MoW stack there

IT we lose our leatherneck at former Milan
lose supply of furs
get a landing of 4 units at Iona

9.1040AD
those 4 units are easy cannon fodder
we need the furs again, trade coal for furs and 22gpt
take out recent founded Llangollen on our norther Island, get a slave for the effort
while taking back slaves to our mainland spot a clipper in the open
checking before and after sinking it, we know we sank 3 Cavs and 1 rifle there :lol:

IT quiet for a change

10.1050AD
on the way to Geneva set up attack on Angora, raze it and get 4 slaves, but we can't take them along I think
next player can decide whether to abandon them or keep
our assault on Geneva is due next turn. we have 15 leathernecks in clippers to reach it next turn
used the spy to investigate (since 2 bombards this turn still showed healthy units)
It has 7 defenders, so hopefully with bombards we should be able to take it out

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11050a.jpg

every turn I would short rush leathernecks via laborer (360g each) in London and York.
did not do any research during my turns, Siam has Internal Combustion and possibly some more techs.
Canterbury is about to be able to make 140spt, we might need a court there to achieve it. It would then starve while making
140spt.
I left around 800g for next player to rush whatever is needed
by the way london while waiting for 140spt initially finished the Heroic epic (well, at least we got one leader)

our southwestern Islands
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11050b.jpg

the Celts Isle (you can spot another oil there, we should settle there befoer making peace to grab that

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11050c.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bez11050d.jpg

lastly, a check with mapstat says

Celts 388cpt (before we took out Angora)
Siam 227cpt
England 178cpt

romeothemonk

Apr 06, 2005, 09:35 AM

Good job ThERat. Let us keep up this war. We really want to pummel the Celts by taking out all their coastal cities, period.
That leaves some nice warring for Bez to take care of. We might need a few more clippers, just for slave transport.

Bezhukov

Apr 06, 2005, 12:16 PM

Got it - will play this evening.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 02:13 AM

Pre-flight: Kudos to the RandR design team for enabling such an historically accurate game, complete with the Angles making use of their naval superiority to gain domination over neighboring people, and putting such power to the glorious use of picking on the poor Celts out of cultural envy. If not the story of the millenium past, certainly one the most prominent threads. Being a good bit Celtic myself, perhaps I’m biased. Loking forward to the Celtic revenge on DocTS, that is for sure.

Hmmm, our cheap fisheries may be one of our strongest points in this game, so will endeavor to take advantage of this ASAP. Leicester and Lambstwon have forgotten their raison d’etre, I see. This will be corrected. 20% lux is a bit soft in wartime – luxuries must be sacrificed for glorious Albion! Set rate to 10% and hire a couple specialists.

Squeeze another 14gpt out of Siam for WM and incense. Ship a couple luxes to Abu for 15gpt. Might have to start watching him soon, as he appears to have tech parity. Gift a couple luxes to Gandhi, as Brennus has been smacking him around and he might need a boost. Give Polynesia some salt to stiffen his spine.

Warwick needed a fishery way more than a bank, will have to wait to remedy that situation.

IBT: Celtic cav takes out neck and slaves. Woo hoo! India completes Eifel – no to Brennus! Abu gets Emncipation – two for two! Siamese cascade to Crystal Palace.

1060: London: neck->fishery (time for some forest plantage there), York:neck->neck, Nottinghma:artillery->factory, Sheep:fishery->neck, Dover:market->fishery, Norwich;colonist->shrine, Cambridge:fishery->bazaar, Ipswitch:port->counselor

Remember to sell off Slave Markets this turn.

7 defenders in Geneva – one unfortified.

Armada lets fly – all defenders yellow.

Vet neck redlines defender, dies.
Vet Neck redlines defender at full health, then loses 7 straight battles.
Vet neck wins, promotes.
Vet neck wins.
Vet neck wins, promotes.
Vet dies without scratching defender!
Vet neck wins without scratch!
Vet neck wins, promotes.
Vet (4/7) neck wins, razing Geneva.

Pillage a bit here and there.

IBT: We get Internal Combustion from Pedia. Siamese land on Celtic mainland, going for wine location.

1070AD: London: Fishery->neck (back to one turn necks thanks to forest plant), York:neck->neck, Sheep:clipper->neck (two-turn), Tintagel:Wind Mill->laborer, Warwick:Bank->fishery, Oxford:temple->market, Brighton:temple->fishery, Portsmouth:harbor->port, Richmond:laborer->port

Man-o-War opens fire on Kells – four hits, sire!
Two more hit for three each, revealing only three defenders in Kells.
Soon, they are red.
Elite (7/9) neck wins.
Elite (5/9) neck wins.
Vet (4/7) takes one for the team, razing Kells.

We manage to get all three defenders in Cork to two or one red bar, but it is on a hill…
Elite neck (8/9) dies.
Eite (7/9) neck wins.
Elite (7/9) neck wins.
Vet (7/7) neck wins, and Cork is Corked.
All workers succesfully evacuated.
All celtic coffee disconnected.

Special delivery on clowns for a… Brennus! Is there a Brennus here? Clowns, for you, courtesy your good friend Liz.

First 4 workers make it back to London for upgrades. Mass worker upgrade this turn, in fact, as the railroad in the desert (?) completes.

IBT: Our brave neck at the former Cork takes down a Cuir and a Hussar, before dying a glorious death. Our other neck at Kells was not so fortunate.

1080AD: London: neck->neck, York:laborer (oops ->forgot the sort rush there)->Stock Exchange, Canterbury:Sewer->fishery (in 1!), Lambsburg:laborer->fishery

48 turns to clean up Sheep pollution! Switch Sheep to park. Major uptick in WW – I suspect it will soon be time to inaugurate our Federal Republic.

Bactra gets a taste of our gunboat diplomacy and is razed with no losses. Frigates head home to retool.

Hmm, it will take 7 turns to get our flotilla to the other side of the Celtic continent. Breathe deep that Democratic air, brethren, it is not long for this world.

Take a peek at Siamese CP build, and see it will build in a smooth 260 turns. Even with our help he has two clowns pitching in on the project.

Clippers head home to unload workers/heal necks.

IBT: Siam and Celts make happy. Our brave neck retreats a Cav and nearly kills another.

1090AD: London: neck->neck, York:park->neck (I’m going to try to get him to 140 with a forest plant), Berwisk:court->laborer, Sheep:park->neck, Bristol:laborer->shrine, Canterbury:fishery->park, Ravenna:shrine->bazaar, Exeter:fishery->market (this is our next monster city), Leeds:shrine:laborer, Carlisle:bazaar->laborer, Richmond: port->court

Well, our Siamese friends now have a foofhold on Brennus’s continent. Celts gave him Mil Tradition for peace.

Rail the Oasis, and… York is now 140 spt too. Colonist joins Canterbury. Park in 1.

4 frigates upgraded to iron frigates, they’ll have to do for arty support in razing the former Roman cities, could be bloodly, but we can recruit more necks. Men-o-War lift anchor and set sail for the far coast of the Celtic lands. They arrive in seven turns – the clipper fleet will easily overtake them. 14 Leathernecks all healed in Norwick, including 4 elites, ready to let fly again on the Celts next turn.

1100AD: London:neck->neck, York:neck->neck, Canterbury:neck->neck, Dover:fishery->academy, Norwich:shrine->fishery, Cambridge:bazaar->courthouse, Birmingham:factory->coal plant

We have three ships in vicinity of Cumae who had been pillaging Celtic coast, and so they turn their guns on Cumae, revealing 3 defenders, 4 more Iron Frigates en route, but we press the attack!

Accidently attack with vet instead of elite, but he shows his colors, taking out vet (4/7) rifle, and promoting.
Elite neck is not so fortunate, dying without taking a point off of his injured adversary.
Elite neck wins.
Vet neck, wins and razes Cumae.
Man o war disconnects Brennus’s only wine source.

I’m tired of waiting for an MGL, London starts Central Bank.

IBT: Siam’s economy goes into the crapper, as our lux deal with him expires. Abu can’t pay for salt anymore, so he gets none. First Celtic ship I’ve seen drops off cav, cuir, rifle on coal isle.

1110AD: York:neck->neck, Sheep:neck->Iron Frig, Tintagel:laborer->laborer, Canterbury:neck->bazaar, Warwick:fishery->factory, Manchester:shrine->fishery, Bath:forge->court, Bristol:shrine->court, Gloucester:shrine->forge, Portsmouth:port->counselor, Bath:forge:court, Reading:court->shrine,

Resistance finally ends in Iona.

Reg cav redlines in taking out vet rifle. Sorry bout that, what I thought was a clipper between coal isla and horse isle was actually a privateer, so no help from horse isle forces. Reg cav kills vet cav. Vet rifle kills vet cuir.

Eight bombardments in Antium only redline two defenders, one still green. This could get ugly.

Sure enough, first elite neck takes one for the team, but then three wins, and the pyramids stand no more.
Given the terrain, we actually had a decent shot at keeping that one, but I didn’t feel like playing with the flips. The winning neck promoted and will live, as I cut off the pertinent roads. Celts made 314 cpt last turn, let’s see if we can get them under 300.

Our privateer dies attacking Celtic Clipper – the age of privateers has past, methinks.

IBT: Pollution strikes York (that good old one percent chance!), luckily I had switched neck to rifle for a few to shore up our homeland defenses.

1120AD: Leicester:fishery->academy (should be two turn laborer factory soon), Canterbury:bazaar->Cav (one turn), Coventry:factory->fishery, HamadanLfishery->granary, Brighton:market->fishery, The Mumbles:shrine->port, Iron Town:patriot->patriot, Dariuh:laborer->port, Carlisle:laborer->laborer, Ipswitch:counselor->court

Celts down to 303 cpt.

Man-o-War’s hit hard, but they’re slow. Only Iron Frigs get action at Veii, but it’s on grass, so necks have a go, and Veii is rubble with no losses. 5 more workers join the good guys.

The main MoW fleet continues to chug its way around to the main Celtic metros, pillaging here and there enroute.

IBT: Arabs and Celts make happy. Celt rifles run out of Belgrade to chase our neck that killed Veii, but only Cav can reach him.

1130AD: York: neck->neck (fixed his food so he can make them without blowing 360 gpt), Sheep:Cav->Cav (2 turn Cavs at 4fpt), Bristol:court->forge, Tintagel:laborer->Mjor Port, Canterbury:Cav->court (how can he not have a court?), Nocoal:fishery->temple, Oxford:market->fishery, Dover:academy->court, Cambridge:court->temple, Iona:laborer (starving to 2)->port (starving), Portsmouth: counselor->granary, Bath->court->windmill

Reup trade embargos with all vs. Brennus.

Man-o-War takes out clipper in port at Illuminsomething, and promotes! Sheeptown starts on Naval Academy. 8 turns – lets see how much worker magic can improve that figure. Got it down to 5, had I enough labor, would have been 4.

Illumin is now in Davy Jones’ locker. Belgrade is on a hill, so will require Men o War.

IBT: Celts build Arc De Triomphe, Arabs and Celts are building CP, so we will get MP next.

1140AD: York:neck->neck, Canterbury:court->prison. Newcastle:shrine->court

Iona flips to the Celts – unbelievable – we lose 3 cav. Manchester:fishery->bazaar

And to add insult to injury, I miscalculate and leave a cannon guarding Belgrade with no necks to kill him. Same mistake in Gordium.

We take back Iona. Got Sheep down to three turns on Naval Academy – if only we’d had it earlier!

OK, I’m obviously getting tired now. Pls use workers to fix food – makes a HUGE difference in RandR, especially with fisheries. Oxford and Manchester need it especially. Pls use workers to do this before railing hills/clearing jungle (clear marsh before jungle, as jungle is actually productive when fed by fisheries).

We have a lot more productive empire now, and the Celtic menace is very much reduced. We should be able to produce adequate forces to take out the cities to the rear of his continent in the next 5-10 turns without wrecking our economy. Good rule of thumb – if a city takes more than 5 turns to make a unit, better to get the basics built there first.

Hmm, as we'll get MP next turn, might be worth it hold shields from Central Bank in London for a turn to see if its worth going for Crystal Palace.

sanabas

Apr 07, 2005, 03:37 AM

I am up, yeah? I will try and get us Crystal Palace, I will continue hammering the Celts until WW stops me. Do we want to go to Fed Republic to get Statue of Liberty & Conglomerate? Revolting when the WW picks up will also give us the anarchy turns to hurt the celts a bit more.

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 08:51 AM

I would not revolt. I like our current government. While federal republic is nice, the Siamese were building Lady liberty. Siamese sounds like they were building 3-4 wonders at a time while at war with the Celts.
The Celts are like a weed in this game and we must keep taking down the big old cities. I figure that they have only 5 cities we shouldn't/couldn't raze. I would just keep up the razing power now, but you guys already know my preferences.
I like the CP, and then the central bank.

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 08:52 AM

BTW Bez, It sounds like nice warring. :goodjob: Nice to strecth ourselves a little bit. :)

sanabas

Apr 07, 2005, 09:16 AM

If siamese are building liberty then there's no pressing reason to revolt, I will simply make peace when the war weariness gets too much. Will play it in the next couple of hours.

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 09:25 AM

A couple of ideas for the team.
1) Replace any cities on Islands not the Celtic main. I know there is a small island by our iron town and an Island the Celts took from India. I would settle these to prevent the Celts from coming back.
2) Lux choke Siam. Let them eat clowns or something to slow the pace down. We have many builder projects left that really warrant completion.
3) If we are force to sign peace with the Celts, bomb Siam a bit. With our war infrastrucutre, we can oscillate nicely now. Razing 1-2 Siamese main cities would certainly slow the game down again, which we will need.
4) I say the cutoff rate for WW is 50% lux. If we need more than this, then sign peace.
5) Try and get an army win. The milacademy should spit out an army soon, and we could really use the army win to open up some more fun builds for us. (I sense a Leatherneck army.)

ThERat

Apr 07, 2005, 10:16 AM

agree with Romeo's plan, but don't forget to settle that source of oil in Celts land once we have peace.

and be careful about a leatherneck army. I am pretty certain an army does not have the amphibious war ability any longer. (my own game showed that)

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 10:20 AM

I thought armies kept their amphib ability but lost their paradrop ability. I have built and used Marine armies in C3C, and not had any problems with them. They function as bigger, badder, Marines/zerks for me.

ThERat

Apr 07, 2005, 10:34 AM

C3C yes, RaR I did and it didn't work, maybe someone could test it or tell us

sanabas

Apr 07, 2005, 12:12 PM

1140: all good

1150: Arabs build Statue of Liberty
We learn mass production, london switches to Crystal Palace, Canterbury to Central Bank
Start research on motorised transportation
Raze Gordium

IBT: The alliances end, I don't renew them

1160: Raze Rhymney, sink a celt transport, lose our last privateer

1170: Learn Automatic weapons
Sheeptown builds naval academy
Renew lux deal with arabs, we give rubber, they give cotton, spices & 39gpt
Upgrade 2 leathernecks
Raze cardigan

1180: Canterbury builds central bank
Upgrade 5 leathernecks
New London founded on NE island
Raze Rhayader

IBT: Celts land 1 crusader on the home island

1190: Resistance in Iona finally ends
WW increases again
Raze Aberystwyth

IBT: Celts land 2 cavalry on home island

1200: Learn motorised transportation, start on Tank warfare
Raze Dinas Powys

IBT: Renew Celtic embargo with Siam, we give 'phants, they give 5 gpt
Renew Camel deal with Arabs, we give camel, they give 30gpt

1210: Raze Hyderabad
Raze Llanelli

1220: Celts build crystal Palace in Pyrene :mad:
London switches to National Gallery, wastes 907 shields
WW up again, and the celts have upgraded from rifles to trenchers, so time for peace.
Still time to raze Tara & Lugdunum first though
New York founded on Iron town island
Sign peace treaty, Celts give us Merthyr, Durrow, Caerphilly, Angora & 381 gold. The first 3 cities are on separate islands, angora is a replacement city next door to pyrene and will probably flip soon.
Lux down to 10%

IBT: Renew horse deal with Siam, we give horse for tobacco & 35gpt

1230: Learn Flight
London builds National Gallery, starts National Library which has just come available (3rd or 5th uni built I think)

1240: Learn Psychology & Tank Warfare, Encyclopedie expires
Start research on Total War (& diplo victory), due in 5 turns
New Nottingham founded on far SW island
Upgrade 7 leathernecks, 3 clippers & 3 Men O' War

Decision time for us, we can take a diplomatic victory in 5 turns if we want one, via the league of nations. Canterbury has just started a prebuild, it will be well over the shields required in 5 turns when we research total war. Do we want to take the win, or do we want to hold out for domination or conquest? We are at 30% territory at the moment.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 01:00 PM

Sanabas, our quartermaster, your play is usually flawless, excellent peace agreement. Diplo win is easily available, though this game still holds some interest for me, so I vote to continue, though we'l need to grab LoN for denial. A couple comments:

"Celts build crystal Palace in Pyrene
London switches to National Gallery, wastes 907 shields"

As this is Sid, city investigations on major builds are a good investment. Especially when capitals are competing.

Canterbury still lacks many basic infra builds. LoN requires no pre-build, as it is so cheap. Pls delay the pre-build there.

I'd like to be in Soc Dem, as our maintenance costs are considerable. We can do quick strike wars there, but will require some skill.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 01:24 PM

I couple thoughts on significant differences between RandR and unmodded:

In unmodded, cities can build infra or units - there is no production boosters until factories, there is no such thing as fisheries, cities can both grow and produce at the same time (because each citizen only eats two food). In RandR, you don't really have this choice, or if you choose units before some infra, you will be building 10 turn units and losing the game, same for choosing growth over production. In this game, I'd like to shoot for getting the basics built before units, and production over growth until the basics are built.

The second difference, and this relates to the first, is that forest can be mined and grassland can't, so some cities need forest-planting before they can even be reasonably productive. In the same time it takes to rail a mined mountain (+1 shield), you can rail, plant, and mine a grass for +4 shields, and the latter city most likely needs the production boost much more.

The basics:

forge, mill, clock, guild hall (preferably factory, coal plant, and park, but jeeps and the like can be built without)
granary, counselor, court,
harbor, port, major port, fishery if on coast (we get these all half price)
toll house, bazaar, market
academy, lib, SoS
shrine, temple

These are all relatively cheap builds, and we have several cities that are close to completing them, which will free up our big guys to get the wonder pre-reqs built. Pls keep our overseas possesions on this path (once their lands are developed, this will happen much faster, now that war is over, WLTQ days should be feasible).

Sanabas - what does the culture situation look like? MP killing Angkor Wat should have helped a bunch.

Doc Tsiolkovski

Apr 07, 2005, 01:26 PM

C3C yes, RaR I did and it didn't work, maybe someone could test it or tell us

It's the same for RaR and unmodded: 'Pure' Armies are amphibious; if you mix (Berserks/Marines, ColMar/Leathernecks) they loose the ability.
Not that this makes any sense....

sanabas

Apr 07, 2005, 01:29 PM

Yeah, should have checked for Crystal Palace. There were 3 other cities building it, and we weren't all that cashed up, so I let it go. Was a mistake with hindsight, it wasted 5 or 6 amphibious units that london would have built.

Canterbury got a bit of infra during mine, it still lacks marketplace, bank, etc, it is on 0 shields at the moment, so swapping is easy. Starting the prebuild is just habit so I know it will be finished the turn it's available. LoN is 450? shields, so at least 3 turns for any city to build, if we want to take it we do need to prebuild it. We lack infrastructure in general, I built a lot of libraries, academies, etc, we still need a lot of research buildings, especially now we need to do our own research.

I'd hold off on wars for now, tanks have just become available, our next war should be a major invasion with tanks & artillery rather than our current coastal raiding.

Don't think I've used social democracy, it is the no building cost but high WW, yeah? If we keep going we'll spend a lot of time at war, I'd prefer to be in absolute monarchy for cash rush & no WW.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 01:40 PM

I'm curious about the current culture situation.

If we're out of the woods there, there is no good reason that we need spend a lot of time at war. Quick surgical strikes here and there can be accomplished in Soc Dem. It is such an economic monster, I'm talking one-turn research in the modern era. With Brennus at 3 luxes, I don't think he's going to be that big a threat, even with all his land. We did get all his oil, correct?

sanabas

Apr 07, 2005, 01:56 PM

quick look at mapstat says:

Celts: 35k culture, 268cpt
Siam: 22k, 246cpt
Us: 13k, 223cpt

Celts can't double Siam at that rate, so we're mostly out of the woods for now. Celts will pick up again though, they've got a fair bit of space to recolonise on their mainland.

We probably took all the celts oil cities, but they were replacing cities on the coast of their mainland almost as fast as they were being razed. Again, just reading off the last save on mapstat, we have 4 surplus oil, Siam is missing oil, coal & aluminium, but the celts say no available trades due to the embargo.

*edit* Just checked the save, the celts were nice enough to donate their last source of oil as part of the peace treaty. I only see 1 oil on the celtic mainland, in the far SE corner. I forgot to look on the last 2 turns I was at peace. We have 3 transports just upgraded in range of that oil, 1 of our mainland cities needs to switch to a settler to finish next turn, and it can reach the oil next turn, colonise it the turn after. Celts only have 2 cities on that southern part, it may be worth building 4 or 5 cities in there as a beachhead and to prevent the oil-stealing city flipping.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 03:04 PM

If we can deny Brennus oil, he will be our beotch once we get tanks, and we can hurt him fast enough then that war weariness should not be a problem, if war becomes a necessity. If we mind our p's and q's, it should not. We'll beat anyone to space.

I'd throw a couple basilicas and unis in here and there just to be safe.

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 04:04 PM

Yes but I am up. Hehe. I wonder what I will do now. :) I do not like the idea of space, but I will not restart a Celtic War. Arabia, so we can capture Smiths on the other hand??
Smiths would help us out immensely. Will look at the situation closely when I get to the game tonight. I will not randomly fire off into war.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 04:12 PM

Fight all you want - I just get depressed seeing cities that could be productive making ten-turn units while lacking basic infra that could allow 2-turn units with a bit of patience, not to mention decent income. I would like to get three productive cities on the wonder pre-req plan before we lose out again like on CP.

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 04:32 PM

Patience, yeah how long will that take. I want to start busting bozo's now! Look I already got the funny pajama's.

We are approaching a real builder phase as we have enough workers, plus we can rail, clear, and plant forest. These 3 things were severly lacking until this point.
If you get too depressed I could recommend watching us burn the capitol of many different civs.
I would like to fight Siam, but that would screw us culturally, so I add Siam to the list of people we don't sell lux to.
Embargo list:
Celts
Siam
Victim list:
Arabs
India
Polynesia
I will see what I can do to grab us even more free workers, if we go to social democracy we don't want any of our own workers.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 05:49 PM

In soc dem, you got so much shinola, you can do whatever you want. ;) Plus, if we play nice, we can sell our techs for even more coin.

Wouldn't this be the perfect game to finally see those Eurocopter Armies I talk so much about in action? :drool: The wait will be a lot less grueling than Bed3.

ThERat

Apr 07, 2005, 08:25 PM

can we grab the oil on Celt land before they take it, it's just across the channel and flip risk should be manageable. I like the idea of another victim, Arabia has nice wonders.

btw, do we now stick to the 'new' roster or will you be up after Romeo, Bez?

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 08:35 PM

Let's stick to the new. I don't understand the push for more war - we don't have time to develop the new lands anyway, we have plenty of land with which to crush our foes, and the WW will force us out of the governments that make best use of our traits. Mercantile domination is the British way!

If you must, have at it, just pick a foe without tanks!

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 11:20 PM

IHT: Sell rax in Dairush Kaibur. Swap Leister to academy and Canterbury to prison. Turn tech rate down a notch. I want some cash.
Turn 1: Upgrade some laborers and some rifles. Disband a reg clipper and finally disband a reg archer. I have had my eye on making him go away for 3 turnsets now.
Turn 2: Lots of deals end, only one I reneogiate is ROP with Poly. Slowly redistributing military and disbanding stuff like reg spears. We know have an agent in Mecca, and I investigate Medina.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-12.jpg
Turn 3: Slowly start upgrading the navy. Still prepping for my lighting strikes. Note I haven't built a unit, only disbanded some.
Turn 4: Just something to note.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-22.jpg
Turn 5: Cancel ROp with Arabs, ask them to leave. This happens. Oh well. Investigate Baghdad. It is their IP city along with Lady liberty. Kill the 5 defenders, and raze the city. Kill the last defender with an army of Amphibs, to get the army win and not lose any units. Load the slaves up. Give Durrow and Caerphilly to Poly as he needs the help and we don't need to lose either city and get WW. (Arabs there already)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-32.jpg
Turn 6: India and Celts sign peace. Pyrene builds Wonderland, we build the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Siam then gives us Machine tools and 3000 gold for Total war. Start on Marxism, due in 4. Decide to head for Kufah this turn. Capture Kufah, because it has cotton and I want all the Arab attack units coming to us. Upgrade almost all of our military.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-4.jpg
Turn 7: Lose a rifle in the IBT, Raze Khurason, and get 5 workers, losing 1 amphib, killing 5 units, landing with the army.
Turn 8: Capture Medina, no losses, and raze our gpt ~200 by capturing Smiths. We also get Clauswitz, so we get cheaper upgrades.
Turn 9: We start building Wall street in Canterbury and the Empire state building in London. Raze Fustat and capture some more workers.
Turn 10: Siam starts spirit of St louis. Nuts. Production in London is sabotaged. Dang Siamese, they are the only ones that can afford it.
Turn 11: Our transport beats a carrack. Raze Muscat, kill some loose troops.
I played to even out the turns. I enjoyed the war and didn't build any war units.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-1300_AD.SAV
More thoughts to come later.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 11:39 PM

Hmm, do we still get Statue of Liberty even if we aren't in Fed Repub?

Sounds good on the war - well executed if superfluous. Smith's certainly makes things easier until Soc Dem. Demo will last til then but will be a little long in the tooth by the time we get there.

Leicester was supposed to be for cranking laborers (and was set up for two turn laborers), I don't know why we can't keep it that way (it was building a bazaar when I got the game). It will never be big enough to produce significant commerce. Pls let it build laborers until our land is developed - then instagrowth! I'm impressed that we got the Skyscrapers built for Empire State. Would be nice to get an MGL for some of these small wonders...

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 11:40 PM

We can end the Arab war whenever we want, bt I would keep it up as long as we can. We can easily contiune to raze cities on the way to Mecca. We really want to raze Mecca.
I think we want to continue razing all the cities we can. We are not suffering any WW.
I forgot to settle on the oil, but Siam did it for us. We might want to declare and raze on Siam soon. Their Tech rate is getting really out of hand. I razed a bunch of cities but the Arabs are still a federal monarchy.
After this round of building finishes, we really want to crank out some more military. A few new units, (Tanks) and another dozen amphibs would really help us out in the long run.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 11:42 PM

Roster:

ThERat:up!
Bez: peacemongering in absentia
Sanabas: requisitioning the requisite supplies for the campaign
Romeo: plotting world conquest by the end of his next set :lol:

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 11:45 PM

>I forgot to settle on the oil, but Siam did it for us.

This is huge. With Siam having tanks, amphibs aren't so hot. I built a colonist at the beginning of my set expressly for that location on the last turn of war, and we forgot for two consecutive sets? Well, there you have the excuse for war with Siam...

romeothemonk

Apr 07, 2005, 11:48 PM

I razed the city with Lady Liberty.
The purpose of the war was to get us some free labor. I got Leister up to size 9 really easily. Leister is now building up bazaar and other enhancements. There is no need to build native laborers. I would actually try to merge them into our cities.
With the emancipation proclomation our growth is really nice, and we can really grow quickly.
Obviously we need to starve some or our new acquisitions.
We got the last skyscraper we needed from capturing Medina.

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 11:51 PM

Sigh. Which cities is Leicester stealing tiles from to get to size nine? Native workers are significantly faster, and merging them is the idea - that way cities can run max shields and still grow. Cool move on Medina. :)

And capturing EP makes war with Arabia worth it too. :thumbsup:

ThERat

Apr 07, 2005, 11:51 PM

Leicester was supposed to be for cranking laborers sometimes in bewteen that we need it to grow a little, that's why i set it on a bazaar.

got it, have another monster to play first, but it will be done soon as well. will try and take out as many cities as possible, but when i looked at the save, we are a little stretched here with units

Bezhukov

Apr 07, 2005, 11:52 PM

Leicester needed nothing. I left it at pop 5, working no tiles other cities needed, making 15 spt and 5 fpt, for two turn laborers until engineers.

romeothemonk

Apr 08, 2005, 12:00 AM

Leicester was off when I got it. It isn't really a big deal as it uses a total of 7 tiles, non of which are stolen from anywhere else. The extra food that it has accounts for the other citizens.
I

romeothemonk

Apr 08, 2005, 12:02 AM

Leicester was off when I got it. It isn't really a big deal as it uses a total of 7 tiles, non of which are stolen from anywhere else. The extra food that it has accounts for the other citizens.
I spent almost all the worker turns doing tasks to improve the railnet, which now has every city on the mainland on it. I also chopped some marsh and jungle. We should have our core all developed in 30-40 turns.

sanabas

Apr 08, 2005, 03:00 AM

Patience, yeah how long will that take. I want to start busting bozo's now! Look I already got the funny pajama's.

Somebody else who has heard of the Frantics, I am impressed. :worship:
I vote for all speed toward sid eurocopter armies followed by all chanting 'boot to the head' as we spread the pain.

Govt-specific don't provide their bonus if you're not in that govt, so Liberty would do nothing for us without a revolt. What tech is Soc Dem available with? If we want to use it for the modern age, lets get into it asap.

Siam having oil is not that big a problem, they are tech leaders but don't have that big an empire. Celtic tanks are the only ones that worry me much. Half a dozen battleships will make it very difficult for the tanks to even land.

Leicester was a size 5/6 2 turn labourer factory all the way through my set, size 5 was WLTK, size 6 wasn't, I got sick of seeing the message for it starting/ending every single turn. It should have stayed a 2-turn factory while we kept building, we still have a massive amount of jungle to clear.

Nice war, looks like it's going to turn into just 3 civs left, as Arabs are now crippled and India & Polynesia already were. Sticking to building for a while looks good though.

ThERat

Apr 08, 2005, 04:01 AM

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bez1-1350AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
Arabia has 3 tanks

IT both landed inf get killed by tanks

1. 1305AD
actually what I can see is that celts have settled the oil and Siam has none

IT tank kills a unit in Medina, we better go for peace soon

2. 1310AD
while taking out a tank, get a leader
we fail to take Mecca and with our current forces, i think we won't achieve it
sell Siam Marxism for 3400g and Unionization for all their remaining gold (7664g)
use some of the money to rush quite a few things

3. 1315AD
defeat 2 units in mecca, check the city , there is even an army inside, with our thin tropps we won;t beat them
settle for peace for now getting 256g and 30gpt
then give them saltpeter for spices and 22gpt

4 1320AD
now we have some builder turns, we need to have tanks first before thinking of war

5 .1325AD
after radio go now for Motion picture since Siam does not have it

IT renew embargo with Siam against Celts (though i think the next target should be Siam)
Hat Yai finishes Einstein, well well

6.1330AD
build here and there
since we are now in better shape to start thinking of an attack against Siam and we have some money left
steal carefully and succeed, take totaliarism, sell radio to Arabs for 72 gpt

7. 1335AD
again and again we are hit by pollution

IT renew tobacco deal with Siam
get Motion pictures, guerilla warfare next

8. 1340AD
steal another tech from Siam
get 228gpt and 360g from Siam for Motion pictures

9. 1345AD
continue to build infra and some tanks

IT India and Polynesia sign MPP

10.1350AD
continue clearing jungle building infra and some tanks

I think we should consider going after Siam once we have enough units, we still have an unused MGL for us to decide what to do with it

romeothemonk

Apr 08, 2005, 07:51 AM

I like the National history meuseum with the MGL. It requires 3 regular meuseums. Of course I would put it in London.
Did the Arabs ever switch governments on us?
When we are ready with 16 amphibs and our navy, plant a spy on Siam. That almost always goads them to attack. Then we raze 2-3 of their mainland cities, get some more free labor out of the deal, sign peace for a buttload of gold.
We really want to get Hollywood as well, as it reduces WW and adds happy people to our cities. I would let Canterbury build Hollywood, and shortrush the theaters somewhere.

Bezhukov

Apr 08, 2005, 10:25 AM

Got it, will play today.

Bezhukov

Apr 08, 2005, 10:36 PM

I frankly cannot believe that we let the Celts get Oil. And oh by the way, Brennus has 41856 (+350) culture to our 18509 (+288).

Romeo, we have our fun little arguments and it all usually doesn't amount to a hill of beans, and I usually greatly enjoy playing with you, but I really don't appreciate devoting seven hours to bringing a Sid game to the point of victory to see it pissed away. Oh, and somehow Caerphilly is now Celtic too - that's two oil sources. I can't see how this is anything but careless. :sad:

What we were fighting - Rifles: 5 def x 7 hp = 35
What we are now fighting - MKIV: 10 def x 9 hp = 90

Two and a half times the pain in the butt...

We do have a beachhead in Celtic lands - on the flat next to the capital. Like that'll hold. And I'm not risking half our army in hopes it won't flip. Gift it to Siam in hopes that hostilities will commence.

I feel sick to my stomach.

Manchester and Oxford still lack the forests I requested 30 turns ago and are running huge surpluses of food. As is Dover. Lambsburg and Exeter are starving for lack of rails, and meanwhile our workers are railing jungles and clearing jungles for no apparent reason, as the cities nearby have plenty of food.

Carlisle has nicely irrigated all his tiles so that he can make 9 extra food at 15 pop with no sewer. What is he building? Prison due in 12.

Coventry is building a nice regular tank. We have an empty island city with 4 Celt Cavs next to it. Gloucester is building a 79 turn Sewer. What are we - the AI?

I realize that this is a big adjustment from unmodded, but if we don't make the adjustment, we're not going to win Sid. Fishery cities need shields. They get all the food they need from water. Jungles are fine if you have enough food. Forests can be mined and railed.

We're making no use of WLTQ days.

New Nottingham could have had an Iron works if we'd settled it one tile north...

Sigh.

First order of business is Echelon. York builds Police Station in two. I don't have the energy to write this up, I'm just going to try to undo the damage.

Sorry if this is too harsh. :(

End report: Well, were not going to lose on culture (we trail by a steady 23500 and the rate is comparable - built several Artist Guilds). Our productive capacity on the mainland is much improved. All food is fixed (I miscounted on Liverpool, so it is short one food, but it doesn't reach many new tiles anyway, and it somehow missed two of the five it was supposed to catch, I wouldn't mind seeing it abandoned.) All other cities have the right amount of food, and tiles are arranged to minimize the need for sewers). Pls at least explain the reasoning if you feel like changing this around.

Siam got Spirit, so Sheeptwon got a War College, wasting no shields. Canterbury already had more shields in Echelon, so cascading there was no option. Fission is due in one, but we have no UN pre-build, and Siam started on it last turn. Siam also lacks oil and uranium. Brennus does not. I think we can beat Brennus to a launch or overwhelm him with superior tech weapons - unfortunately, he'll have nukes before then.

Several of the overseas cities are getting ready to bust out, as the workers have made their presence felt. On the home front, Sheep is building pentagon, we have 4 armies, and we have three cities now dedicated to MKIV's to shore up our defenses. Pls let coastal cities get their sci and tax on, as they will be available for units soon now that they are more productive.

I'd like to go Soc Dem and try to get a launch, with a quick strike on Siam if necessary. If we could use tank armies to get Brennus's uranium before he gets fission, that would be ideal.

Bezhukov

Apr 08, 2005, 10:41 PM

I'd hate to give up an Echelon build so close to completion, but it may be worth switching to UN and starting from scratch. UN experts will have to make the call here.

Bezhukov

Apr 08, 2005, 10:48 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bezwest.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Beznorth.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bezlate.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Bezlater.JPG

romeothemonk

Apr 08, 2005, 11:08 PM

I will attempt to explain myself as best I can. I thought I put in my turnlog, Gift Carephilly and Durrow to the Polynesia to avoid any war weariness as the Celts and Arabs had units there.
The City with 4 Celtic cavs near it had no method of getting new units on my turns, as I had no real chance to fit units in as I saw building as a better option at the moment.
I explained my worker turns as clearing marsh, and hooking up all the cities to the main railroad net. I feel that a RR net is more important than mixing up shields and food. I have said repeatedly that I like a simple railnet, then maxing out the best cities ASAP to allow the needed building in 3-4 key towns.
We had that at the start of my turns, so I went and did what my intution says is best, and my experience has shown, which was complete the railnet.
After that I attempted growth in cities that were not near max size. I believe that growth is total power in Civ. This was mostly limited to irrigating some key tiles, and clearing marsh. I also RR'ed some tiles to get exeter up to speed.
I have never really tried to play resource denial, and I don't really think about it. The only time I really worry about resources is when I need to capture some. You have expressed a near overwhelming desire to use Europcopter Tiger armies, so I was waiting for that.
I am not pissed or anything. I have a thick skin and can take some criticism or even quite a bit.
I am certain that after 0 A.D. Each of the 4 players in this game would have been able to win, and there would have been 4 different styles of winning. That is the great allure of SG's as my style is forced to be softened.
On the game as it stands, I would swap to the UN, as I love 1/2 priced upgrades. Siam might be able to win a vote and must not be allowed to get it.
I would swap another key city (Sheep or York) to a prebuild for Echelon or Hollywood. I would plan on us going to war in 40-50 turns from now, when we should have 6-7 eurocopter tiger armies. Nothing can stop that. End of Story.
You and I have been the most vocal opponents about how to get to that ultimate gamebreaking unit. You like straight teching, I like constant warring to get there.
You have a great desire for WLTQD, and I like mass growth. It is a fundamental difference and I doubt we will ever really resolve it. The best we can do is to recognize this difference and play off of each others strengths.
It is a game, and I like to win as much as the next guy, maybe even more, but I try to never get to worked up about it.
This one is going in my personal hall of Fame and I am really enjoying the playing and discussion of this game.
@Sanabas, I vote on naming our armies "Boot to the Head" and a #. I am really glad that someone got some of my odd, obscure humor references.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 12:15 AM

"Nothing can stop that."

Nukes can. And Brennus has uranium.

Might be worth spying to see where Siam is building the U.N. Echelon will be uberuseful with all our half-corrupt cities.

I'm glad you didn't get mad, but I think this is more than a case of different strategies. the blame for the state of the game that I received does not lie all with you, but I had to say something, or we'll lose.

"Gift Carephilly and Durrow to the Polynesia to avoid any war weariness as the Celts and Arabs had units there."

You chose to war. Brennus was still the greatest threat. Given that this is Sid and he has a huge continent, this threat could be optimally managed, as we had been, via naval dominance and amphib razes. Your decision to war on a non-threat nation without securing the means by which we could keep Brennus contained - oil denial - was not just a different strategy, it was careless.

The Celt Cav city apparently sat empty for another 20 turns between yours and mine. I have no idea what our workers were doing in that period.

Of course growth is power.

In domestic cities, that's why I had two worker factories set up to feed growth to cities that needed it so that they could grow without sacrificing all production. I wasn't even talking about this. I was talking about cities that had obviousl been growing for at least 20 turns since they hit max pop, meanwhile having very few shields to make that growth do anything.

I invite you to take a look at the productivity difference between the turn I inherited the game and the one I passed on. That boost could have come 30 turns (at least) sooner. And I had to blow a couple thousand shields on Artist Guilds since ignoring Brennus let him get back to a dangerous culture pace.

In overseas cities - what good is growth if all it produces is corrupt? And due to that corruption and the lack of infrastructure, it can't produce any multipliers? Again, this is not just preference, if you compare the approaches over the course of a game, it is the difference between winning and losing, especially on Sid. I don't have 'great desire for WLTQ", I have a great desire for productive cities. You can make more units that way too; that would be a strategic difference.

Oddly, I don't think we can wait 40-50 turns to take out Brennus's uranium. We have to make sure to get it all, but I think we can do it in about 20 if we prepare wisely. I guess I am worked up, but only because I've put a lot of time and thought into this game - I value yours, I would hope you would return the favor.

romeothemonk

Apr 09, 2005, 08:38 AM

I put a great deal of time and thought into this game. Perhaps moreso than any game since I got to play the Napoleonic Campaign on Sid, and that might be a tossup as well. I take hours to think of my moves and then more hours to carry them out.
I mentioned some of my methodologies of play, and took a large amount of thought and effort to explain how and why I war. (Posted in LK96)
The main difference is that you see this a major crux of the game, while I saw the turn where I went ballistic with building troops as the crux of the game.
I am not overly worried with nukes, I have never seen them used in RaR, even when I am really beating the snot out of large AI's with many multiples of my production capability.
I think a war with the Celts will be relatively simple next time. Build as many eurocopter armies as we can. Bombard and capture a coastal city near Pyrene, as has been our M.O. Unload a bunch of Eurocopters and send them straight for Pyrene. Raze that baby, cover armies. Wait. Retreate, Heal, rinse repeat. If that doesn't work, keep the armies with enough moves to get on the boats, and heal in our territory.
With all our differences, I think that we are at that point in the game. The team worked through and got this far, and I am certain it will pay off in spades.
We also have a spy on Brennus and can see how many nukes he has and where they are.
With the worker actions and increased productivity, I concur that you made large gains in civ-wide productivity. However, ever since we got high explosives, (2 turnsets for me) We all have been massively increasing our core island. Perhaps your greatest speacialty is arranging MM of food and shields, as I haven't seen anyone else with your attention to detail on the subject and the ability to carry it through the empire.
I expect that the final improvements of the core will not be done until you see the game next in 30 turns. It is not bad that it occurs, we each do the best we can in that area, with different emphasis where we think it is most important.
In overseas cities, speacilists can be and probably will be the order of the day, similar to c3c. Especially on continents, I improve my core, and as I get other/more cities, I let them grow, rushing the little infra I need and mass farming speacilists. That maybe a habit I picked up from lurking all the grumpy old men games. I never try and make all my cities worthwhile unless I am play an XCC game.
I think that we will have to agree to disagree on the WLTQD for corrupt cities. I am not convinced, nor probably can be convinced of their overwhelming importance. With Social Demo coming up shortly, I really don't think it will matter.
@all, back to the game.
Check the # of turns on the Siam UN. If we can get it faster swapping sheeptown or York to it, let Echelon finish. If it is in a coastal non-capitol city, consider a war to raze the city.
With Social Dem, Ecehlon is hugely important. Siam is the only AI I think that might be able to win a UN victory. I like the UN for its leos effect though and would like to get it for that and denial purposes. After that, I would go for electronics, with a Hoover prebuild, then go for social dem after others have it and we can get a research discount.
Good luck Sanabas.

ThERat

Apr 09, 2005, 09:11 AM

I waited a while to also give my comments here. I am a little surprised about all these issues. When I handed over my turns, it didn't look too bad. Major RR had been done and the remainder are good improvements but not completely crucial in my mind.

There was a comment the previous time I handed over, why desert is being RR. Well, I didn't respond but the reason was simple. I wanted the south of our Island connected so that we could send units in 1 turn to the ships waiting to take the north for attack.

There are always issues about improvements. When, how many, when is it right to build units. If you want a city perfect, with RaR there are always new improvements that would give another boost in research or shields or culture. Well, at some time we also need to go for war and interrupt that process. I feel our position is excellent for SID. True, we allowed Celts to get that oil (I advised as well to build a city there once we have peace).

We do have a beachhead in Celtic lands - on the flat next to the capital. Like that'll hold. And I'm not risking half our army in hopes it won't flip. Gift it to Siam in hopes that hostilities will commence
What was wrong with that beachhead? Other than flipping, what would have cost it? It would have been a nice starting point for a war.

I am a little tired of all the quarrels about WLTQD, about resource denial and culture victory.

This is a SG and if we all can't accept the different styles, you might as well play alone. I have said that before. I enjoy SG's because of the different styles and it makes me discover and learn a lot. If we all play according to one style, see above.
So, please do accept different styles and let's win this game. I am not too keen on a SS victory, because the late game MM is rather a chore than fun to me. Tha's where I don't like CIV.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 01:17 PM

"The main difference is that you see this a major crux of the game, while I saw the turn where I went ballistic with building troops as the crux of the game."

No, I agree that your military preparation was the crux of the game, as it allowed us to take out the Celt threat. All I'm saying is that had we not gotten careless, it would have been the only crux; as it happened, I was handed a game in danger of losing multiple ways.

The desert being railed last time was a spur that was not necessary for the railnet.

Styles are fine, poor play is not. If I screw up, I admit it and don't try to explain it away as a "quarrel" or a difference in philosophy. Whether to build the GL or not is a question of style. Trying to build all the AA wonders with no infra or troops (for example) is poor play. Some examples in the pictures that follow:

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 01:44 PM

The situation the last time I handed off the game (1140AD), city planning was already known, so production should have shot up from this point:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1140demo.JPG

When I received the game this time (after 31 turns), 1350AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1350demo.JPG

The game I passed off (gains almost entirely due to forest plants available for at least 30 turns), 1400AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1400demo.JPG

Mfg. goods went up around 500K in 31 turns, then almost another 500K in the next ten, and this was almost entirely due to forests plants, as few production boosters completed on my turns. To appreciate the even greater actual impact requires looking at the cities that benefited most, that can now build quick sci and tax buildings and soon units instead of languishing at poor production levels.

I'm focusing on two issues (WLTQ is peripheral, as it's really too late at this point to benefit from that much, and the cultural threat was not yet dire, thanks to Siamese culture): oil denial and worker actions. These were clearly suboptimal to the point of being poor play. Some poor play is just part of SG's, I've contributed my own. But another good part of SG's is having one's poor play (and good play!) pointed out to get better.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 01:48 PM

BTW, Liverpool's food can be fixed by clearing 3 of his jungles, then irrigating one tile (preferably a bg if one shows up), then planting forests on the remaining two tiles and joining a laborer if necessary). All tiles are railed while still grass.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 02:04 PM

Uncorrupted shields per turn (1350->1400):

Carlisle: 28->46
Dover: 56->107
Brighton: 58->98
Oxford: 19->38
Cambridge: 42->77
Norwich:44->68
Hamadan: 26->40
Nottingham:68->101
NoCoal:34->52
Manchester: 22->38
London (!): 143->164

There are a couple factory builds in here and one Coal Plant (I quit building Coal Plants as we should be able to get Hoover before they would pay off), the rest is forestry that couild have been done much eariler.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 02:10 PM

"I mentioned some of my methodologies of play, and took a large amount of thought and effort to explain how and why I war. (Posted in LK96)"

This sort of strategic thinking is much appreciated and taught me a great deal. I believe inattention to resources is a strategic flaw in high level play (i.e. not HOF necessarily, just Sid in general). Could you add resource denial to your theories , they would be even stronger.

If we make it to Eurocopters, the game should be won, though I've never seen an AI with nukes that is attacked refrain from using them.

"In overseas cities, speacilists can be and probably will be the order of the day, similar to c3c."

RandR is radically different from unmodded in this respect. Had we utilized WLTQ days and forest plants, we would have already had a second productive core on horse isle. I can show you some games where I'e accomplished this if you'd like. If we go to Soc Dem (communal corruption), we still can. With all the multiplier improvements in RandR, specialists are a huge waste if they can be avoided. The key consdieration is the time one has to develop the cities. Horse Isle was settled early enough to be productive. Cities acquired now are better used as specialist farms.

"Check the # of turns on the Siam UN. If we can get it faster swapping sheeptown or York to it, let Echelon finish. If it is in a coastal non-capitol city, consider a war to raze the city.
With Social Dem, Ecehlon is hugely important. Siam is the only AI I think that might be able to win a UN victory. I like the UN for its leos effect though and would like to get it for that and denial purposes. After that, I would go for electronics, with a Hoover prebuild, then go for social dem after others have it and we can get a research discount."

All very sound advice. We are not yet to the point where we can handle the anarchy. I'd also like to leave our 2 armies empty until we can put some ToW or Mech Inf for defense on landing.

LKendter

Apr 09, 2005, 02:57 PM

RandR is radically different from unmodded in this respect. Had we utilized WLTQ days and forest plants, we would have already had a second productive core on horse isle. I can show you some games where I'e accomplished this if you'd like. If we go to Soc Dem (communal corruption), we still can. With all the multiplier improvements in RandR, specialists are a huge waste if they can be avoided. The key consdieration is the time one has to develop the cities. Horse Isle was settled early enough to be productive. Cities acquired now are better used as specialist farms.

I have noticed in RaR that it is late game almost all cities can be useful. You need Supreme Court, Echelon (sp?) and the 3 extra palaces. Between all of these think RaR has eliminated the value of specialist cities.

Bezhukov

Apr 09, 2005, 03:04 PM

ThERat, I reread your report. I apologize for not noting the excellent job you did on tech trading/stealing. :thumbsup: We would not be in the position we are re:UN options had not ThERat been so adept in getting is caught up in the tech race at little cost. We do each have our strengths.

"What was wrong with that beachhead? Other than flipping, what would have cost it? It would have been a nice starting point for a war."

The main thing is the risk of provoking the Celts into a war for which we were not ready. Once I had a tank army, I felt secure enough to establish a new beachhead at the oil. We should be able to steal it with culture (spy on the Celt city to check feasiblilty). There is a platoon of Iron Frigates sitting next to Caerphilly to take out that oil in case of attack.

As for MM - now that food is fixed on the main isle, there should be relatively little of that necessary there. MM'ing the ten or so cities on horse/coal isle should not be too much of a burden. ;)

sanabas

Apr 10, 2005, 04:53 AM

Got it. Have been busy this weekend, just got home. I'll read all the reports soon and post my own thoughts.

sanabas

Apr 10, 2005, 01:55 PM

All very sound advice. We are not yet to the point where we can handle the anarchy. I'd also like to leave our 2 armies empty until we can put some ToW or Mech Inf for defense on landing.

Why couldn't we handle the anarchy? Possibly good that I missed this, I might not have revolted. The armies I left empty, no point loading them with units that we should upgrade before the next war.

I've skimmed the last dozen posts, I agree with ThERat that most of the arguments are simply different playstyles. Making an effort to get WLTK days is something I don't bother with unless they're already very close. I don't think the benefit is worth it, especially on RaR with so many corruption reducers. As the discussion has shown, all of us are able to give reasons for almost everything we do, it's one of the main reasons all of us are able to play at Sid. The only things I think were actual mistakes were forgetting to settle the oil on the celts main island, which was made by me and also by Romeo, and having cities with too much food and unable to grow, which I'm fairly sure has been made by all of us at various times. I don't remember if celts & polynesia were at war when durrow and caerphilly got gifted, if they weren't at war then it's a justified decision, if they were at war it's a mistake equivalent to gifting oil to the celts. What order to use workers usually has thought behind it, my preference is to save the jungle clearing for last, unless the food is badly needed, as changing 4 jungle to 1 grass & 3 forest changes the city from 8 food & 12 shields to 8 & 13, so only gets done when I run out of other actions. Anyway, on with the report:

1400BC: I investigate Siam, UN is due in 107 turns. No need to delay Echelon, as Siam can't beat us to UN. Don't care if celts get fission and beat us, as they can't win a vote. Switch 2 builds to Movie Palace, Sheeptown already has 1. I'm using London's prison for the UN, Sheeptown's Pentagon for Hollywood. If we really want Pentagon Canterbury can build it in a few turns. Also switch Bath to a Major Port, it is size 7 with a full food box and being prevented from growth. Also built a granary in Iron Town, it is growing from 1 to 3 and then starving back down, the granary will give extra turns at size 3 and quite a few extra shields.

1405: Research Fission---> Dem Soc

1410: I forget exactly when, but I rushed a shrine & artist guild in new hastings, we took the oil & dropped the fliprisk via culture just before revolting, we lost it in the anarchy, we should regain it soon. I moved a few units into it, fliprisk is 0 when we have the oil, approx 0.2% when we don't.

1415: Siam are building New Deal, they are already a Dem Soc

IBT: Renew peace with Arabs

1420: Canterbury builds Echelon

IBT: Renew saltpetre with arabs, we give saltpetre for spices & 12gpt

1425: Research Dem Soc, ---> Whatever tech gives Armors, I forgot to write it down
3rd movie palace builds, sheeptown switches to Hollywood
Revolt, get a 6 turn anarchy, reorg all cities for max food

IBT: Renew Celt embargo with Siam, we give 'phants & incense for 23gpt

1430: Our spy in Bangkok is captured

1435, 1440: zzz

IBT: Renew with siam, we give horse for tobacco & 24gpt

1445: Celts declare war on Siam

1450: zzz

Still in anarchy, we'll be a social democracy next turn, all cities are still at max food and will need to be re-orged. We should consider trading siam oil for tanks to hit brennus with. Civpedia is wrong, our Admirals of the Fleet upgrade to Iron Frigates then cruisers, not Battleships. :( We should get Hollywood and UN with no probs.