whoknows02 - C3C - Rise of a Civilization [Archive]

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 06:10 PM

Sorry it has taken me so long. My ISP went down and just came back up (they apparently don't have workers on the weekend). Well here it is, turn log and save.

Pre-turn: Traded Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial for Masonry. There is no scout so after this build of warrior will build a settler and search for a good settling spot.

Turn 1 3000 BC: warrior->warrior. Portugal scout finds us. Trade Masonry and Warrior Code for Bronze Working and Pottery. Bump the luxury slider up to 10%.

Turn 2 2950 BC: same. DBear why is the worker building gems? Shouldn’t we wait til we get our second city and build a worker from there? Just wondering.

Turn 3 2900 BC: warrior->settler. Am going to explore, but since we are in the middle of the map we are more and likely be surrounded by jungle to the south and good plains area in the north. Will settle north first and see what exploration gives us. Volcano is about to explode. Perfect settler/worker factory with floodplains and 2 cows on plains.

Turn 4 2850 BC: Looking good and the wheel will be here in 6. Same, just waiting for the settler to be built.

Turn 5 2800 BC: Same, the spot for the settler to plop down would be on the flood plain and then having to irrigate those cows and mine the plains closest to the river for max production. Someone should use the governor to manage production/shields for max production.

Turn 6 2750 BC: Volcano erupted! Grasslands south/southwest of the jungles. Looks like an okay start that we can manage with. Settler in 2, the wheel in 4.

Turn 7 2710 BC: Found another flood plains area with wheat! This is going to be great having worker/settler factories close by.

Turn 8 2670 BC: Our worker completed a road to the gems. Lower the luxury slider. I don’t like spacing my cities out far apart like CxxxxC (or more) but will do to have the settler and worker factories in place. If the next person does not like the spot where I put the settler you can change the course. Delhi settler->archer. We have a barb camp to the N/NE and BG to the SW. Great production city that can spew out improvements and units.

Turn 9 2630 BC: Troop movements. Moved worker N of town to road and the mine the BG. The wheel in 1.

Turn 10 2590 BC: Got the wheel and researching writing. Try to maximize science if you can. Make a deal with Portugal because they don’t have The Wheel.

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 06:12 PM

Mach you can fill Meteor's spot. So Meteor, we had a thunderstorm hit late saturday night and it had knocked power out and disrupted our cable connection. We called immediately, but it was the computer operators until a human came on 10 minutes later. They got it up and running smoothly now and I am sorry that I agitated you guys abit.

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 06:14 PM

Mapstat takes too much resources to run so I don't have it.
@Khan you are right I did disable the other victories so we wouldn't achieve any others. I play too many Conq/Dom games that I feel like having a change.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 06:14 PM

i don't get it... i think we must talk together about our objectives... DBear decided to go for The Wheel to go for horsie-rush, so we should definitely stick with that idea instead of going for writing. or at least discuss that it was a bad idea and change it... otherwise, it'll be a mess. also, screenies could be nice, and dotmaps too ;)

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 06:16 PM

Percy, don't have the software to post screenies :(. If you load up a screen I can post where the settler is going, and I guess we could do a horse rush against the French because the computer plays well against them. It is only 50 turns to changing won't effect the science put into it.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 06:30 PM

i agree this might not be a big deal this time, but we should really discuss of such things ahead of time, to have some consistency... i know this is only Emperor, but i am nowhere near experienced at that level, and there's only so many mistakes we can afford to make.

EDIT: you don't need any software to post screenies. just hit "print screen", then go to Paint, Paste, add notes where needed, select the smallest part you can, cut, paste it in a new file, then save as a .jpg, and voilà.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 06:56 PM

okay, i loaded the save, and there is something else that bothers me: science rate. according to Brother Bede, who i tend to believe, one should go MAX science or MIN science, but NEVER "+0 gold" science... also, going MIN science means putting science at 10%, or at 0% when a Scientist specialist is available. the science rate in the last save gives writing after 50 turns at 60 or 70%, with a balanced budget. either we go at 10, or we go max, running a deficit. i vote for the deficit, since the settler will soon plop down a city, which will remove the unit support. also, we can try to live off the money we get from selling techs.
by the way, try not to sell techs THAT early: we don't know who knows who, and we are not sure to get the most out of our techs. it is best to wait till we know more AIs, so that we can lessen the price of the techs.

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 07:07 PM

Percy what I mean is that there is no .jpg buttons as a save. Sorry if I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 07:08 PM

what version of windows are you running ??

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 07:10 PM

I agree with the tech thing Percy. The problem with this on Emperor than on Monarch is that once you get a tech the AI does not know you need to trade ASAP because of the possibility of a goody hut popping the tech for that civ or the eventual trade of that tech after waiting too long. I think I did the right thing because it keeps us caught up in the tech race for now. We may drag behind as the civs start going for second/third part techs.

whoknows888

Mar 21, 2005, 07:11 PM

I am running Windows 98 right now because of my other hard drive has XP, and after few uses with XP you can not use/load XP with that disc. It is shocking at the price of XP with the many flaws with it.

Mach

Mar 21, 2005, 08:16 PM

Thanks for letting me in, who. :wavey: everyone!

If I'm taking Meteor's place, then I'm up next, right? Ok I got it. I have to cook dinner now, but after that I'll look at the save, post some screenies, and we can talk from there. I'll try to play tomorrow.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 08:20 PM

Mach

Mar 21, 2005, 09:12 PM

Ok, I'm not good at dotmaps, but I took a stab:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/who02_firstdotmap.JPG

The pink dots are core cities that need a lot of chopping to become anything.
Settling order: red, purple, blue. If we manage to get both red and purple dots, we'll have plenty of food...which we'll need to chop all that jungle.

I would finish the archer build in the capital, for barb defense, then build a worker. We have a lot of tiles to upgrade. For instance, Red Dot City can be at +5fpt if we chop and irrigate the game, and irrigate a flood plain. So on that note I would start Red Dot on granary first, using the chop to speed it along. Let our rax-ed capital build our military. We'll be at two cities for awhile, but we'll explode later with all our nice food.

Also, I think we should do max research on something, and writing is fine as a something. I think any philo run is out, but still writing is as good as any. I would trade Wheel to Portugal for their 10g -- that's 10 more turns of max research for us, and the Ports are gonna get it eventually. Incidentally, I agree with who's trades so far -- I like to make early trades aggressively, then get more cautious as the game goes on.

Percy

Mar 21, 2005, 09:18 PM

i think that since we're going for space, we should space a bit more.
also, giving wheel for 10g... please, don't do that...

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 02:42 AM

Definitely space wider, at least cxxxc.
I will make a dotmap when I'm home (which will be in about 9 hours).

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 06:01 AM

I would argue going cxxc is better because of a) the 1-turn movement between cities and b) the better use of space with small cities. In the modern ages, properly timing our prebuilds will make up for having smaller cities.

But ok, I'm ok with cxxxc spacing if that's what the team wants. The pink dots need to move, obviously. Lullaby, consider leaving red dot and purple dot as they are -- purple is already cxxxc, and red would be on a disease-ridden flood plain if it were farther away...

also, giving wheel for 10g... please, don't do that...I know it's a bargain for the Ports, but besides that, why not? They're gonna get the wheel eventually, maybe even next turn; as you said, we don't know who they know right now. If they're gonna get it anyway, we might as well be the ones to profit off of it. That 10g will go right into our writing research.

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 06:15 AM

Since we are going for space race, we have to plan for a highly productive core in the modern ages for high science output and fast speceship production. This will mean we will possibly have all our core cities at size 20 or so, 15 at least. If I understood whoknows right, this is is going to be as peaceful as possible.

The second city should be on the flood plains to the nw. Can't see why we build on a hill in a flood plain area where shields are what we need in the long run.

The first city as 6 turn settler factory potential with the game irrigated, the second will be a 2 turn worker factory, and we will need workers to clear all the jungle and swamps. All other cities should produce nothing but barracks/units in the beginning.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 22, 2005, 06:24 AM

I agree with percy on the Wheel, this tech is too expensive (the second in the first tier) so we must avoid selling it.
I think that wider city placement wont hurt us... This one is too AW for my taste. We dont have a settler factory yet so it can limit our expansion.
The settler is unprotected. We must not take risks like this, it can cost us a lot.
Also, the eastern rose spot seems on the coast. I'd priorize it for the exploring curraghs... For me it must come after the red dot.
Connecting it requires only 1 mountain with gems roaded.
Also, lets let our capital grow, the cycle can go 4-6 and even 5-7 (my favorite). It has enough tiles to work.
It slows us a little but brings many advantages.
Does Delhi have a granary?
EDIT: Lullaby, do we need so many units from the third and so cities? We can decide that when we see more of the map... For now, a few cheap temples (especialy the capital) can worth more...

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 06:55 AM

The second city should be on the flood plains to the nw. Can't see why we build on a hill in a flood plain area where shields are what we need in the long run.Well that's a good point. To me it's a tossup: we either lose the hill's shields, or we invite disease.

This will mean we will possibly have all our core cities at size 20 or so, 15 at leastAll I've heard from greater players is that hospitals are bad. They're expensive, cause pollution...and unnecessary, because the same builds can be achieved with specialists and intelligent prebuilds. I've always wanted to test this...

Delhi does not have a granary, it has a rax. That's what's guiding my thoughts right now. I figure use Delhi as a unit factory, for barb patrol and exploration, and let our second city be a settler factory. Workers can be squeezed out from different places until we get to settling that food in the north.

Now, if we go with Delhi=settler factory and SecondCity = worker factory, we're gonna be unit poor for awhile, and we wouldn't be using that rax very much. Would you guys want to sell it, or keep it for the warrior we'll get every 6 turns? It's costing us 1gpt, which is a lot at this point.

Anyways, I'm just pointing things out, I'll go with the team's decision here. I guess I'd let Delhi's archer finish, then start on granaries in both cities... And I await a better dotmap. :)

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 07:02 AM

We need some warriors for mp and some offensive units in case we need to counterattack. After that we can go for temples, libs, markets. As we are not going for 100k I can't see why ultra early temples will be of much benefit.

I'm verifiying if a city must be built directly on flood plains to struggle from disease or if it's enough to simply work the flood plains. If the last is the case, I'd definitely move the red dot nw. If not, I'd rather build on the hill 2 nw or on the grassland on the other side of the river. cxxc is definitely to tight for the first ring if we are going for space race.

whoknows888

Mar 22, 2005, 07:38 AM

I'll be on after school (not that long) and discuss further where the cities need to be for RCP. Other than that someone has a choice between researching writing or contine with Horseback Riding.

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 08:22 AM

RCP won't give any boon in C3C.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 22, 2005, 10:59 AM

I agree with Mach, Delhi can be unit factory (with the occasional settler) and the second be settler and later worker factory.
No bonuses in the closer FP, i think... It must be built in a way to share the game with delhi.
With capital for unit factory, we may/should go in war mode soon... The expansion will be slowed down.
Please go for writing, HBR doesn't worth it. I don't even see horsies around. Min on writing?

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 11:52 AM

Another thing: as Delhi already has rax, these would be completely wasted if we turned Delhi into a settler factory. So we have to put the settler factory somewhere else. I'm going to generate a dotmap now.

BTW, it is new to me that hospitals produce pollution. I suffer from polution even in cities without hospitals. Pollution is a question of population numbers and production, as far as I know.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 12:04 PM

Another thing: as Delhi already has rax, these would be completely wasted if we turned Delhi into a settler factory. Hee, that's what I've been saying. A settler factory in Delhi would have been the optimal plan, but a monkey wrench got thrown in with that rax. The question is, do we backtrack and make the settler factory, or do we use the rax and make units? I voted make units, and it looks like I'm getting some converts... :)

I have a general question brought up by our situation. When we chop the game forest, what's the logic that determines where the shields go? Obviously they go to the closest city first, but if two cities are the same distance from the forest, what happens? (Judging by Lullaby's comments on his forthcoming dotmap, this isn't an issue for us. The shields are going to the capital since it'll probably be closer. I'm just curious.)

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 12:20 PM

ok, i'll try to give my ideas on everything.
by the way, please bear in mind two things: i am not a native english speaker, and itend to have a direct style when i write. this is by no mean to be rude or anything, so please don't jump on me if you think i was flaming you or something, because most of the time i'm not =) if you have a doubt, send me PM, so that i can apologize and edit my post (or confirm that i was indeed flaming =P).

anyway, back to the points:
- when a forest is choped, i _think_ that it works that way: imagine the forest square is a city center. now imagine the "city radius" of this square. now, start in the inner ring, on the northern square, and number it 1. then, clockwise, number the squares to 9, then start on the first outer ring and do the same, and then the third. now that you have this picture, if two or more cities are in the "city radius" of the forest, then the city in the square with the lowest number will get the shields.
PLEASE feel free to correct me if you think differently. also, feel free to test it =P
- we HAVE to space at least CxxxC, as has been said, especially since we're going for space. i'm not planning on having ALL our cities with an hospital, but i sure considered it for the 5-6 core cities.
- i'd rather "gamble" to lose 10 gold so that we can make a truely good deal, than playing short and get a mere 10 gold. really, i'm TERRIBLY opposed to selling the wheel for so little.
- i was thinking of settling the FP city on the mountain, but Lullaby's observation seems obvious, in a hindsight: we will need the shields later, so definitely spare the mountain and settle on the FP. also, i'm not really concerned much by disease: first because it does not happen that often (let's say that every other city suffers it once in the game, at least that's my experience with it), and second because, with that big a food potential, we don't really mind to lose 2 pop, and we will regain them quick enough.
- curraghs are pretty important, especially if we want to be able to make the better deals i have mentioned. because to make them, we need to actually know other civs ;)
- too bad for the rax, but let's try not to go back too much, i think it's a waste of time in most cases (might be wrong though). let's minimax our MP using this city, and when it is quite big, go granary and settlers or workers. if it is too late, consider skipping the granary (one of my problems in this game is i don't really know when to get a granary and when not to, so i'll rely on you guys there ;) )
- RCP does not work in C3C, indeed.

i'm done. sorry about the "dot" style, but that way i don't have to struggle to stay clear when typing big posts ;)

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 01:14 PM

I'm a real fan of freedom of choice, so I made three dotmaps to choose from :D

There are two possibilities for four turn settler factories. The first would be on a flood plain, using two irrigated cows, an irrigated flood plain and two irrigated plains to generate settlers while growing from size 4 to 6. We have to take loss due to corruption and waste into account for that, so we need 7 shields before the first growth and 8 after that. The second cow must be brought into our borders by building another city. I marked this city with a mighty pink dot, but other locations are thinkable. The location is shown on dotmap 1 as red dot.

Settler factory one would leave the forest game to the capital, which doesn't really need it, as it has 10 shields at size 5 even with a normal grassland mined. It could however be cleared and mined to give 3f/1s instead of 2f/2s, allowing the capital to grow faster and push out a worker every now and then. It will also need a two shield tile on a river, possibly roaded, to get the two extra shields on growth turns that are needed to get 30 shields together within four turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows2_dotmap2590bc.jpg

There is a second good location for a 4 turn settler factory. This one is not placed on a flood plain, but also not on a river. It has a 4 to 6 cycle though and won't need to grow beyond size 6 for quite some time. The setup is quite the same. It will also need a forest or mined hill on a river for bonus shields. Refer to dotmap 2.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows2_dotmap2_2590bc.jpg

I would not set up the settler factory farther away from the capital, because building cities closer to the capital will raise the corruption level and the factories are set up to exactly fit the rules.

There is however a third solution to the settler factory problem: setting up two 6 turn settler factories. This is shown in dotmap 3. These cities will use an irrigated cow, an irrigated flood plain and either a forest game or a mined sugar to generate 30 shields while growing from size 3 to 5, allowing for an even lower lux level (10% at size 5 with two mp and gems connected). After expansion the game and sugar can be micro managed to be used by other cities, so this version would require some micro management to work to its optimum.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows2_dotmap3_2590bc.jpg

All in all, building a rax in our capital instead of a granary wasn't really a good plan. I love settler factory capitals, as settler factories are really poweful and not easy to set up, especially for non-agricultural civs.

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 01:23 PM

one of my problems in this game is i don't really know when to get a granary and when not to, so i'll rely on you guys there ;)

Well, that is quite easy. Build a granary if you intend the city to build settlers and workers more frequently during the first 3000 years or so. You want to specialize your cities, so cities dedicated to unit production or science have other priorities.

The capital will almost always get a granary in my single player games. Only if there is a good settler factory location nearby and the capital itself has no settler/worker factory potential I won't build a granary.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 02:00 PM

#1, so we don't have to build aqueducts in the food cities.

I'm dubious about getting a 4-turn settler factory out of Red Dot -- I don't think it'll have enough shields. Maybe we can figure out some sort of 5 turn cycle, or maybe I'm wrong. But that's for later.

I like the idea of chopping & irrigating the game for the capital.

@Percy: Also, I like granaries in productive cities over size 6, with that bigger food bin, since they would grow so slowly otherwise.

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 02:52 PM

The shield number depends on corruption. If the loss is one shield, it will work, if it is more, then it will be screwed.

The trick is that you can get bonus shields at every growth. Every time a city grows, the new citizen is added. Then the shields are counted, then the production done. So if you get 6 shields out of the factory at size 4 and 7 at size 5, this will make a total of 26 shields in four turns. Now, when the city grows to size 5, the new civ will be set on the most productive tile, if there is more than one most productive tile, the governor will emphasize shields over food because you already have +5 food surplus. If there is a 2 shield tile with enough gold to be used, like a mined hill or a forest, roaded and by a river, you get two extra shields. The same applies when the city grows to size 6.

If that doesn't work, we can still run the factory 1 from 5 to 7.

Personally I'd prefer #3 because lux tax will stay at 0 with 1 lux and 2 mp and we will produce more settlers in the long run with the option of switching to workers if needed.

---
For those size 7+ cities, I prefer to get the granaries from the pyramids I conquer :D

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 03:05 PM

yeah, i forgot to point out that: we should select the size of the city based on the happiness, i think.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 03:11 PM

@Lullaby: Yeah, you're right. Red Dot will be a settler factory as long as it is only 1/10 corrupt (or less). I just hadn't thought it through fully.

we should select the size of the city based on the happinessNot something I've done before; I don't mind using the slider. But I'm willing to bet we'll be able to secure at least one other lux. Only time will tell. :)

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 03:12 PM

yeah, i do use the slider as well. but in the case of ONE city, i don't think it is necessarily a good idea. and anyway, deciding the size based on happiness doesn't mean we shouldn't use the slider, just that we should also base our decision on it if we have the choice =)

Lullaby

Mar 22, 2005, 03:23 PM

We want Delhi to grow to size 5 to get 10 shields per turn, so we will need either a temple, a second lux or 10% lux tax. Settler factories can't afford to build temples, so we must go for one of the two other.

Using the lux tax slider is a nessecity in the beginning. Connecting gems in mountains or jungles will take some time.

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 03:33 PM

once again: i didn't mean "do not use the slider" =)
i meant: "control growth so that we don't have to push the slider to 70%", that's all.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 03:50 PM

The gems are already hooked up, DBear saw to that. So at size 6, with 2mps, plus gems, we'd need 20% lux for a city with decent commerce. I don't think that's unreasonable.

We can set up one settler factory faster than we can set up two, that's a fact. So my argument for dotmap #1 is: it'll give us more early cities, and that's more important than the lux slider. Plus if we find another lux, then dotmap #1 is the clear choice. (Er, right?)

If you think about it (not my strong suit), more cities means more gold, so it's possible that dotmap #1 will give us a better early economy even though it's lux slider is at 20% half the time. Does this make sense? I'm getting dizzy. :crazyeye:

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 03:52 PM

it might make sense, i'm not (too much) of the computing kind =) more cities means more MPs, but also more unit support and commerce, so it's worth looking into that, obviously.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 05:03 PM

Oh fudge, I just realized how many players in this game are European! They're probably all in bed now, or close to it. (So I'm currently talking to myself? :crazyeye: ) I guess I'll play tonight, once I hear from who. Here's my list...

Use Lullaby dotmap #1
Delhi archer --> archer --> worker
Found Red Dot city --> granary
I will _not_ trade TheWheel for 10g
Research writing at max
Explore and stuff

We've already spotted one barb camp, so that's why the two archers. Also, if we can manage to take out a camp sometime soon, that 25g will be nice for our research.

That's all I can think of. If you agree with this, who, then I'll go with it, even though there were different opinions about. I hope that's ok...

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 05:13 PM

erm, no, it's 11 GMT right now, (11:14 exactly) =)

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 05:19 PM

Heh. I know London is 6hrs ahead of me, but...I'm usually in bed by 10. Since when did I get old? :lol:

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 05:49 PM

could be that you are too young ;)

whoknows888

Mar 22, 2005, 06:24 PM

Yeah Mach I don't mind. Sorry Percy, missed you tonight. You are 6 hrs ahead of me and Mach.

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 06:25 PM

i know, no problem at all, that's what a forum's for right ? ;)

whoknows888

Mar 22, 2005, 06:31 PM

:lol: Yeah. Well Percy I'll let you get some sleep my British friend. Btw, how old are you Percy (sorry to ask this)?

Percy

Mar 22, 2005, 06:35 PM

i'm not sleeping before a couple of hours, and i'll turn 23 in august.

whoknows888

Mar 22, 2005, 06:51 PM

Oh... Mach and Lullaby, with our current situation I do not know much to know what to do because of all the calculations involved and it hurting my head (not really) I just don't know how to do all the math and figuring out all the SPT amd FPT etc. I can view it from the city screen I just don't understand some of it and don't waste your time trying to explain, I'll read up on it.

Mach

Mar 22, 2005, 11:01 PM

Preflight -- I just had a trying experience in TR03, so first I pour myself a lil' scotch.

:coffee:

There, now I can play. Everything looks fine.

T1 (2550BC) Move settler n onto flood plain, as per dotmap #1.
T2 (2500BC) Found Bombay
(I) Delhi archer --> archer
T3 (2470BC) Warrior smacks a barb camp and wins, and meets the Russians on the other side.
We are up The Wheel on the them. They'll give us all their 45g for it, so I don't make the trade.
(I) Our cave gets a nice green lawn. With walkways.
T4 (2430BC) zzz
T5 (2390BC) We meet the English! We are up Masonry and TheWheel on them, and they have 0 gold.
T6 (2350BC) zzz
(I) Delhi archer --> worker
T7 (2310BC) The Russians will no longer give us all their gold for TheWheel, so they must be researching it. So I trade them TheWheel for 44g. Market price.
(I) France discovers Mysticism.
T8 (2270BC) We smack another barb camp...more gold for us!
(I) Delhi worker --> archer
Portugal discovers Iron Working
T9 (2230BC) Henry won't give up IW for TheWheel and 93g.
So I give him TheWheel for 35g instead, since he's gonna get it on the IT anyways.
(I) Henry and Joan trade IW and Myst
T10 (2190BC) zzz

We met the English and Russians off to the southwest.
The archer build in Delhi is vetoable, if anyone can think of a better idea. But I'd reccomend it -- we have a lot of cash right now, and a bit of military power might help fend off demands.
I'm roading the bg before mining it on purpose -- the archer build in Delhi will waste 3 shields as it is, using that game square. I think that road will pick us up two extra gold, if it is mm'd correctly.
The Ports are mighty close to us to the nw.
Edit: Also high priority is to hook up Bombay to our roads. It is currently losing 1/3 shields to waste, which will be better once it's hooked up.

Comments anyone? Feel free to be as harsh as you please, I don't take offense to any criticism.

Teh Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows02,_2190BC.SAV)

And Home Sweet Home...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/who02_2190BC.JPG

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 03:53 AM

I'm up?
I tried to update the dotmap. does anyone mind an agressive settling against Portugal? In this case Red is prio, pink is for much later IMO, just to fill empty space. Western red seems on the coast.
Will play tonight, so we have the time (about 8 hours) to discuss this.

Lullaby

Mar 23, 2005, 04:28 AM

Definitely press against Portugal first. Initial buildings there should be temples. Culture will lower flip risks.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 04:36 AM

I still have an internal discussion about the western red dot. What do you think, where it is or one tile NE? It's too close to oporto.

Lullaby

Mar 23, 2005, 05:18 AM

either sw of the cow or ne. ne would be more productive in the beginning, but allow Bombay less growth.

The eastern red dot could be moved across the river to get the flood plain wheat in without expansion, still getting the cow in. On the other hand, if we go for temples in the border towns, borders will expand quickly.

Mach

Mar 23, 2005, 06:43 AM

I'm not terribly concerned about Western Red Dot yet -- it's a long ways away, and I think the Ports will probably grab it before us, especially if we manage to grab the flood plains wheat. There are other problems with sqeezing the Ports; for instance, it's inviting them to declare war on us when they run out of room. We don't want war...

Your Northern Red Dot is a very high priority. Maybe we should get a settler out of Delhi soon to grab it? Up to you Khan... After that, we could just setle our core, get early workers out, and start chopping.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 06:45 AM

I'm mostly concerned about the portugese reaction to this agressive placement, AI hates to see your cities too close to theirs (CxxC) so often its answer is an attack.
I just prefer to be the one choosing the time of war, not AI...
Well the question stands on the northern red spot too, but I meant it essentially for the western. It can be on a river if agressive (like in the dotmap).
Luckily we have cheap temples (the 3 time I mention it), we must use them to get some culture. AI has 20% discount, it builds up cultural buildings fast.
EDIT: Cross posted with Mach. I think both red are on equal priority, but if you prefer I'll go first for the northern. I doubt getting more than 1 city to build in my turns.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 06:52 AM

However, lets not start chopping jungles too early, it takes way too much worker turns and we're not industrious.
I think I'll build some warriors instead of archers, they are cheap, give MP and army strength (two warriors seem more to the AI than an archer) and upgrade to swords.

Mach

Mar 23, 2005, 07:17 AM

However, lets not start chopping jungles too earlyI agree. I was just figuring by the time we're settling those cities, our settler factory will be set up, so there won't be much else to do. But we'll see when we get there.

I think I'll build some warriors instead of archersI hate to disagree with you, but...I think that'll be the correct thing to do once we're pumping settlers. But with our unit support so low right now (and it'll be low for awhile), and Delhi able to make 4-turn archers at size 2, I think archers are the way to go for the nonce. Four warriors and an archer over the course of your turns will swamp our economy; even two archers and two warriors would hurt our research. (At least let the current archer finish, a warrior would waste 3 shields, while the archer will waste only 1 and net us extra 2 gold, if my calcs are correct...)

I don't know the exact army strength calcs, but I think one archer is almost as good, if not equally good, as two warriors. I do know that the army strength calcs favor attack, so one archer is better than one spear.

Lullaby

Mar 23, 2005, 07:21 AM

Going for archers is better as long as we don't need to many MPs. Archers are far better in taking out barb camps. But four should be enough.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 07:31 AM

I had the intention to go on a temple in delhi too... For hapiness and sliders.
BTW, just to mention it, I'm not even religious. It's just that I haven't played recently with a rel civ... I guess I'll go crazy when we get the 2 turn anarchy message :D

Lullaby

Mar 23, 2005, 07:44 AM

With 2 mp and a lux connected the temple can wait until we are close to size 5, I'd say.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 08:37 AM

OK, I'll go for a mix of warriors and archers.

Mach

Mar 23, 2005, 08:50 AM

I think both red are on equal priority, but if you prefer I'll go first for the northern. I doubt getting more than 1 city to build in my turns.Sorry Khan, I just noticed this. I guess I'd better speak my reasons. I think the northern dot should be settled soon because a) it brings the second cow into Bombay without having to waste time building Bombay a temple, b) if we start on Red Dot City's temple immediately, I think we stand a good chance of bringing in that flood plains wheat. I'd love to have that wheat -- it'll mean a worker factory, eventually...

Bombay could be a worker factory someday...but it could also be highly productive in republic, if we mine those cows, and then use the flood plains to work mined hills. So I'd rather let another less productive city be our worker factory.

Good luck, Khan! :cool:

Percy

Mar 23, 2005, 08:53 AM

haven't looked much into details, but it sounds good to me...
the only thing i am slightly against, once again, is the frenzy of trading ;)
selling Wheel to a civ because they research it is basically freeing them from the research time, so they will sooner have another tech, and we won't have anything to trade against =)
i'm not saying that in that particular case it was not the correct thing to do, just that i'd like to stress again we have to be a bit more protective in trades, i think.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 08:58 AM

I fear the city up there will be too corrupted to be productive but will try to get it.
And yes, trading for so few our research is something I'll avoid.

Mach

Mar 23, 2005, 09:09 AM

@Kahn: Red Dot city only needs to get to 5spt to be a worker factory. I think we can hit that, at least in republic...

Oh yeah, is everyone thinking republic like me?

@Percy: You're right. I gambled. We ended my turns with lotsa money in the bank, which is always fun...unless we get it demanded away from us. Then I made bad decisions with those trades. I only gamble like that with first tier techs...so now that everyone has all of those, I agree we should be more conservative now.

Lullaby

Mar 23, 2005, 09:45 AM

When going for philosophy I tend to trade only if I get techs in return, and trade away writing only if I'm fairly sure I will make it to philo first. Let others do their research, they will eventually trade one tech or another, but all in all, this will slow down AI research. With philo + free tech (ususally the most expensive, in most cases map making) you will easily get all lower techs traded back on emperor, except when there are several exp civs around who got their share of free techs.

Exceptions are huge maps or pangeas with more trading possibilities for the AI. I tend to trade as much techs in as I can, and not going for philo.

The northern red dot is destined to be a worker factory. 4 spt means we need about 5 or 6 before corruption, means 4 to 5 spt from 4 worked tiles while the irrigated flood plain brings in the needed food.

The bonus shields on growth trick should work on worker factories the same way as on settler factories. Nearly every city with 5 surplus food and not being totally corrupted will make for a worker factory. The problem is getting +5 food for non agri civs.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 23, 2005, 09:50 AM

I agree on republic, but as I allready said if philo can give us Monarchy (if poly is out there), I'd go out of despotism. Two revolts aren't so bad for a religious civ.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 03:12 AM

So here's the log for my ten:
(1) Why is the worker1 roading the game forest? I think the consensus was to chop it and then road/irigate
He has 5 turns left. IMO those are wasted turns, they are very important in the beginning. However, I let it be, Bombay can use the tile.
Ports and France are up IW and Myst, 127g is close for Myst for both.
Hit Enter...
(2) Archer NE, Warrior N attacks barb camp. -1h he gets 25 gold from the Burgunds.
Betty has IW now, I trade her Masonry and Wheel to get it. If not us, Cathy would have had it (if the ladies know each other)
Iron on the hill next to our healing warrior. We must be fast to get it.
Ports also have se of Oporto.
I think that the western redspot is now our first priority...
(IBT) A light blue warrior presents himself to our border from the portuguese side, hi Isabella, I just love being surrounded by ladies:) Henry, don't you dare touching on Ghandi's Harem!
Spanish beauty has 35 gold, down the Wheel and IW. Nothing else new on the diplo screen.
Archer on the hill east of him, finds some mysterious beasts; the guy who invented the woodens donnuts and called them wheels says they can be usefull...
I know him too few, I don't know if I can trust him on horse's utility. He has some drawings of a beast that pulls a chariot, maybe he's right ???
Soon after, the wounded southern warrior (I'll let him heal next turn) discovers other beasts on his East, just like the ones I have in my cave, drawn with coal...
Locals call them elephants, what a strange name, but the jewels they do with their bones will certainly make me ladies favorite. If only we could claim this Ivory...
Both cities are on 2 pop so Writing is in 15 at -1 gold.
Next Enter...
(3) Worker 2 finishes roading BG, mining is his destiny for the next 6 turns...
Barb Next to the western warrior shows us the way to the next cash machine.
Southern warrior takes a rest in MamouthiLand.
The girl of my dreams, Isabella, sends two workers and 24g to learn the secrets of the Iron Working and The Wheel. In fact, the workers just love India so they stay. It must be the gems.
I don't know what the team thinks of the early worker purchase, but if it's not OK with you we can gift them back to miss Spain. For now I send one roading another BG next to the capital, the other the grassland across the great river.
I prefer slaves for roading, then our own workers will be more usefull.
Only Cathy lacks IW now.
Enter...
(4) Delhi Archer-Spear, three archers are more that I can handle in 2 cities...
Still exploring.
Enter...
(5) Now what to do with the worker on the gem forest... Bombay's granary is in 7 (26 shields to go) so the chop will not leave waste on the granary. Off he goes.
I think Cathy is researching Writing too, i've never seen an AI waiting so long without buying known techs.
Nothing else (exploring)
(IBT) Yellow warrior comes out of the fog. I dont remember, is this a pangaea? We almost know everyone. EDIT: Yes... First post.
William (Netherlands) has writing but not Masonry, Wheel, CB and IW. 10g.
(6) Western warrior sees 4 yellow warriors, what is going on?..
Masonry, CB and the Wheel get us Writing and 10 g. It's a monopoly price but for known techs.
Henry will buy it in the ibt so I sell it to him for 66 gold and mysticism (market price). I will avoid selling it to the others for now.
I set research on Code of Laws, in 28, lets hope (crossing fingers).
(IBT) Portos found Lagos, with the iron on expansion. Must build the city between/on the hills that can claim it with fast expansion.
(7) Nothing new, exploring. Noone new has writing.
Enter...
(IBT) Henry wants us out of his lands, of course. Our warrior stays and defeats the barbarian next to Lagos, as an excuse for his intrusion.
(8) Delhi Spear->Settler for the Iron in 6, growth in 3. Spear MP for now.
More exploration.
Enter...
(IBT) Wow, Delhi got the chop from the game forest! Settler in 3 growth in 2.
(9) Worker irigates, the other one roads the hill next to Bombay to connect it to the capital. I'll send a MP (spear) there, it'll be usefull on growth (2 turns)
Nothing new on the diplo screen.
Enter...
(10) Exploring archer finds silks in the south... They are not too far we can claim them.
Warrior in the southwest finds Russian cities, they will soon go for the Ivory.
Slaves finish roading, one mines the BG, the other goes roading in the west (future Iron City Direction).
Henry got HBR, the Threepoly (us, porto and netherlands) on Writing is still there. We can consider building embasies while it's cheap... I leave it to the next player.
France has 100 g, but Writing worths more.
Delhi settler can be vetoed, but we need that Iron in the west.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 03:16 AM

And a screenie...
Do you like French CIV:)
Colons=Settlers
Grenier = Granary
Code Juridique=Code of Laws
I think red and pink are now TO GET and to build temples.
The ressources (two Irons, Horses, Silk and Ivory).

Lullaby

Mar 24, 2005, 04:14 AM

Plan was to leave the game in the forest and use tow irrigated cows and one irrigated flood plain to get the +5 food.

If the game is already chopped free, definitely mine it. this will give 3f/1s and we can use it instead of the irrigated flood plain. The added shield will ensure that we can cycle from 4 to 6 instead from 5 to 7.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 04:16 AM

OK sorry I've missed that...
Then the worker shouldn't have been there, it's not worth roading a forest for a single gold piece gain.

Mach

Mar 24, 2005, 07:06 AM

Ok, I have my own thoughts on a bunch of things here... I think you did great with the trades and the research, nothing else to say there. :) But some other things...

First, forget the iron. We get jumbos, which need no resource. I don't think I care about iron until railroads. Northern Red Dot is still our #1 settling priority, because we need it to get our settler factory up and running. After that, silks, then maybe (maybe) horses, then our core.

Second, let's talk about worker turns. I think this part of the game (workers, getting settler factories up, maximizing gold, etc.) has become my favorite. Call me wierd... :crazyeye:

Why is the worker1 roading the game forest? A few reasons. 1) It is still a high priority that we get Bombay hooked up to our roads. It is 1/3 corrupted right now, and that will get better once we connect the city to our capital. This is the biggest reason. 2) We would have been working that forest perpetually, so roading it for that 1gpt is very good. Especially since... 3) There was nothing better for a worker to do except move to Bombay! More on that in a bit.

I agree with lullaby, chopping that game wasn't the plan. Otherwise I would have done that first before roading. When Bombay grows in 1 turn, it could have used the shields...now it has no other 2-food spot to go to, except ones without shields. Although I agree with Khan, once it was chopped, irrigating that game is the way to go. At +4 food, Delhi can do warrior --> warrior --> worker at size 3-4, which will be pretty nice when we have our settler factory up.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Who02_core_workers.JPG

Take a look at our current situation. Delhi has 3 upgraded tiles to work, 2 more being worked on (the game and a bg), and another worker positioned to upgrade it a grassland. That's 6 tiles for a city that's...about to build a settler and shrink to size 1. Meanwhile, Bombay is growing every 7, it's not gonna shrink for a long time, and it has zero upgraded tiles! (One being worked on, but that's a forest that won't be worked in settler factory mode, I think. It's only being roaded to connect the city.) This is the reason for #3 above -- my plan was to have most of our workers in Bombay right now, it needs it the most.

So I would advise the next player get workers up to Bombay asap. Move that slave off that grassland.

Usually it's not a good idea to double up workers in the early game, with the exception of putting two slaves together. But I would have done it in this case to get Bombay roaded up, and then split the workers up again to upgrade different squares up there.

I guess we should have talked about this stuff earlier. I guess I'm writing this to see if maybe I'm wrong, or if I'm not then maybe people might learn something. :cool: Sorry if I'm being so critical here, I'll shut up now.

Lullaby

Mar 24, 2005, 07:29 AM

I hope the forest s of bombay is being roaded, not chopped. The settler factory will need a two shield tile at growth.

Getting a settler factory up is simply the most important thing in standard opening games. We already screwed the possibility of a settler factory in the capital as we built the barracks instead of a granary, we should now go for the settler factory with all workers we have. Delhi has much more tiles upgraded then needed for quite some time. It does need size 6 to go through the mentioned warrior -> warrior -> worker cycle (or archer/spear -> worker cycle).

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 07:51 AM

NP in being critical Mach, at least not for me.
I think that as the SG interest is in seeing how the others play, differences in the style are more then normal.
However, if we dont insist on getting the Iron (I'm not conviced BTW, the UU is far from being the only unit that counts in CIV), lets let Delhi grow a little.
The worker is roading and will connect Bombay in 5 turns.
As for the capital cycle, spear-worker or even spear-spear-settler (i havent calculated this one yet) is fine for me. We have many land to settle, we must be fast.
However, I like the idea of getting most of the AI after it settles the land for us.
If I haven't played as you expected, sorry. For my first 10 sg turns ever, I used mostly the logic that usualy guides my solo games. However, this game is allready way different from any solo start strategy i've ever used.

Lullaby

Mar 24, 2005, 08:11 AM

The case with the iron is: we simply don't need it until railroads. Usually you need iron in the MA either for defense (pikes) or offense (knights, MDI). For us, the War Elephant covers both without iron. We will eventually get an iron source hooked up, but there is no need to rush.

Mach

Mar 24, 2005, 08:48 AM

NP in being critical Mach, at least not for me.I'm glad. :) I don't know about you guys, I'm really enjoying this game, with all its good discussion.
It does need size 6 to go through the mentioned warrior -> warrior -> worker cycle (or archer/spear -> worker cycle).Well you're quite right, nice job. I was thinking of a 6-turn cycle, but you are correct, it can be a 3-turn cycle with a granary. So I third the motion -- work the game and let Delhi grow! Build the settler, then a few more units (maybe 2 warriors, since we'll have more unit support soon), then a granary in Delhi.
I think that as the SG interest is in seeing how the others play, differences in the style are more then normal.Yes. And also in adapting to unexpected circumstances. Take the barracks, for instance -- most of us didn't want it, but with it we got a nice veteran army which has resulted in a big bank from barb huts without a loss. Also, notice no one has demanded anything from us yet. Or take the chopped game, which was unexpected by me -- it delays our settler factory a bit I think, but we'll turn it into a nice strong Delhi bringing us units and workers. This is good stuff.

Percy

Mar 24, 2005, 09:15 AM

i haven't really read all in depth (i'm planning to do it later), but ijust wanted to say something about iron... i agree we mostly don't need it, BUT:
- we might want/need to get pikes before getting chivalry, or even just to not have to build a 70 shields unit when we just want to defend
- even if we don't use it, i have recently discovered the power of trading strategic resources to the AI... in a game in Monarch, trading iron currently nets in a whopping 220 gpt (no typo). it might be good for us to sell it, and to do that, we must control as many sources as possible.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 09:22 AM

I fully agree on the Iron's value.

Mach

Mar 24, 2005, 09:25 AM

Both good points, percy. We will have longbows and spears as builds that aren't 70 shields, but getting pikes and med infs to build would be nice. Also iron for trade is always very very nice. I think iron is at peak value when railroads are discovered. I'm of the opinion that we should ignore the iron for now, and then later we should try to get us some...with jumbo dumbo power. :ar15:

Mach

Mar 24, 2005, 09:44 AM

Just to be helpful...

Roster:
DBear -
whoknows888 -
Mach -
Khan_Asparuh - just played
Lullaby - UP
Percy - on deck

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 10:45 AM

I'd like to have a vote about the next settler's priority. Is it:
- Getting the FP wheat in the north
- Getting the iron in the west
Both locations can force us to build dangerously close to portos (CxxC).
So far we have Mach and Lullaby that vote FP and me and Percy for the iron.
No iron limits us too much, with only our UU is to be built.
If not, I've allready had Feudalism at third for Iron and ~100 g.
Let's see what will our American friends say.
And sorry if I insist.

Mach

Mar 24, 2005, 11:00 AM

Vote is cool with me, Khan. :)

Just to be clear, I've talking about your old Northern Red Dot. (See post #100.) It is cxxxc from the Portos, squeezing them a bit less. We could then try for a quick cheap temple to both grab that wheat and put pressure on that Port city. But as Lullaby said, the primary reason for this city is to get our settler factory up and running sooner, by bringing the second cow into our borders without needing a temple in Bombay.

Lullaby

Mar 24, 2005, 11:08 AM

I didn't mean to avoid iron. We definitely have to get the settler factory up ASAP. There is no real choice but fighting our way to the top.

After the northern red dot city we are somewhat free to gather resources of all kinds.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 24, 2005, 11:29 AM

I doubt we can get Iron if we go first in the north. And the settler factory expansion is doable in many ways.
But the nice grasslands in the east will be quickly claimed by the portos who seem to expand essentially in our direction.
So Lullaby, getting northern spot is the same as avoiding iron.
And horses are to be taken ASAP.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 25, 2005, 02:53 AM

Now that's weird. Whoknows and DBear have both been online since my last message but no sign here, vote neither...
Join the discussion guys, we need your opinion...

Mach

Mar 25, 2005, 08:28 AM

Join the discussion guys, we need your opinion...Yeah guys! Don't be scared of the decision, we're gonna win this game no matter which we do. ;)
So Lullaby, getting northern spot is the same as avoiding iron.I agree, but I would would add...for now. Obviously we're gonna want to get us some iron at some point, and it'll be nice having a neighbor with two sources for us to take with our Jumbos.
And horses are to be taken ASAP.I think I agree with this. It would be nice to build some horsemen, and after that the horses would make nice for nice trade, until cavs.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 25, 2005, 08:55 AM

Don't be scared of the decision, we're gonna win this game no matter which we do. ;)
Yup. I'm sometimes pretty surprised by the AI dumbness. They try to resist on games that are allready lost! Check Sid Vicious if you dont believe me.
EDIT: Lullaby, you're up. Will you not be able to get it, we're past the 24h limit, or just wait for the discussion result?
If it slows too much the advancement of the game, I agree on going on and skipping the vote for now. Feel free to do what feels good to you on the settling question.
EDIT2: For information, I'll be offline untill tuesday 29.

whoknows888

Mar 25, 2005, 10:45 AM

Sorry about that guys. It does not matter to me, but the one who's turn it is. No matter what happens our choices will outcome the end result. I think the settler factory is a top priority, but if it is possible to squeeze out a settler to go get the iron so the Port's don't get them that would be great.

Percy

Mar 25, 2005, 10:47 AM

hell it does matter, we HAVE to act as a team... if everyone has his own agenda from one turn to the other, then it will be one bloody mess =)

whoknows888

Mar 25, 2005, 10:50 AM

percy I didn't mean it like that. For me it does not matter because I know it won't effect me until my turn and we discuss the topic then ;). I do agree that we have to work together to get our goals accompished.

Percy

Mar 25, 2005, 10:53 AM

well, my turn is just before yours, but i really think we need to discuss important issues like that beforehand, so that we *learn* as a group what is the best decision (or the mistake to not make again =) )

Lullaby

Mar 25, 2005, 05:32 PM

Still waiting for the last vote to come in.
But I will surely play on saturday.

DBear

Mar 25, 2005, 05:37 PM

Sorry guys. Been rather busy lately. Since my original point in going for the rax was a horsie rush, I say get the horsies. Later we can upgrade to elephants.

I know we need a settler factory, but we must settle by the horses and keep Portugal off the iron.

Anyway, that's my vote

Mach

Mar 25, 2005, 06:00 PM

we must settle by the horses and keep Portugal off the iron.Do mine eyes deceive me, or is that a vote for the iron? Although...however much claiming an iron for ourselves is feasable, keeping Portugal from getting iron is very improbable, since they have two within one expansion of their cities. We would need two cities squeezing theirs to claim both irons...

But I guess we lose Lullaby. :( The iron it is! :) We can still hope we'll have time to grab that food...

The final tally...
Iron: DBear, Khan, Percy
Food: Lullaby, Mach
Abstains: Who

So I ask all you ironophiles...what's the plan for getting our settler factory up? Shall we build a temple in Bombay, or shall we build a settler in Bombay after the granary to bring the second cow into our borders? I guess settler, unless the Portos get in our way. After that settler, we build a few cheap units until Bombay grows big enough to be a factory ...

Percy

Mar 25, 2005, 06:06 PM

erm, make that a draw... while i think (and stated) that iron is important for us, i don't know if we have to take it NOW or to take the food. i honestly wish i could discuss it more deeply, bring arguments for one or the other etc, but i am at a loss between the two choices... so i guess that Lullaby will decide, with the info discussed...

edit: isn't it possible to rush for both, even if it means slightly delaying the creation of a factory ? in that case food might have a higher importance than iron. what i don't want is being locked into inaction until jumbos, without serious defense nor attack, and without a strategic resource.

Mach

Mar 25, 2005, 08:27 PM

wish i could discuss it more deeply, bring arguments for one or the other etc Wish granted! Or at least attempted. :lol:

I've been cleaning all day and organizing my thoughts on this, and here's the synopsis.

Benefits of iron:
1.) We get the option to build swords, med infs, and pikes. Having different kinds of builds will result in less shield waste for us. (For instance if we have a city at 8spt, it can build a 40 shield med inf with no waste. Withouth iron, it could build maybe a 30 shield horse for 2 shields waste, or a 75 shield jumbo for 5 shields waste. You get the idea. ;) )
2.) We'll have better cheap defensive units. Not so much better offensive units, since we get jumbos.
3.) Iron is very valuable in trade -- and we'll have the option of trading even our last iron it away in the age of jumbos, which require no resources.

(Notice that these benefits are somewhat mutually exclusive: if we trade away our only iron, we'll lose the build possibilities.)

Downsides of iron:
1.) We'll have to squeeze the Ports to get an iron, which results in flip possibilities, and I think it might increase the chances of the Ports waging a land or resource war against us in the future.

Now, I looked at the save and I believe that we are guaranteed at least a 5-turn settler factory -- Bombay could get to +5 food by using 1 irrigated plains cow and 1 irrigated game. It could be a 4-turn factory if we find a bg beneath a forest. So that is not in jeopardy.

So what might happen in the east if we send the settler to the west? Well, this is where the permutations get confusing.
1.) We might lose the flood plains wheat to the Portos. This would mean we wouldn't get that future 2-turn settler factory.
2.) We might lose that second plains cow to the Ports. This would mean that a) we would get Bombay to the settler factory state quickly, but b) we'd lose the future 3-turn unit/worker factory in Delhi, because Delhi couldn't use the game. In other words, we'd have a settler factory but no worker factory.
3.) We might get the second cow for Bombay, either by getting a city east of Bombay, or by expanding Bombay. a) If we get a city east of Bombay, then nothing is lost (except if the Ports settle somewhere in the area but we still have room to plant our city, see #1, and also it might be a squeezed city). b) If we have to build a temple in Bombay then our settler factory is delayed by the length of the temple build, and also 60 shields go to that temple which could instead have gone to mps and settlers.

(Obviously if the Portos get the plains cow, they also get the wheat.)

The food we're talking about here is 1 plains cow (+3f irrigated), and 1 flood plains wheat (+5f irrigated). (These numbers are in despotism.)
Benefits of food:
1.) Simply food is population, and population is power. Food means more workers to chop all that jungle we have, and it means more population bringing us more shields and more gold. We could get a 2-turn worker factory out of Northern Red Dot, and a 3-turn unit/worker factory out of Delhi. Also every fpt we don't get, the Portos do get.

The final thing to say is, and I'm pretty sure of this: If we go after the iron, we'll most likely only be able to claim one -- the Portos would probably beat us to the other. If we send the settler to Northern Red Dot, then we have little hope of claiming an iron until we can fight for some. However, if we head for an iron right now, we still have some chance of getting Northern Red Dot.

Edit: My apologies to non-native-english speakers for using words like synopsis and permutation. Please feel free to ask if you need any explanation. :)

Percy

Mar 25, 2005, 08:37 PM

impressive, i wish i could do that instead of just throwing off ideas out of the blue, just by pure theory (or not even, since i've been quite silent on the topic ^^)
gratz for that, really =)
if i understand it well, either we make sure we get the pop flowing in, or we take the risk to secure one source of iron... based on what i've read, i'd say take the risk to go for the iron, but maybe i didn't understand correctly, feel free to correct me =)

EDIT: actually, as a non-english native speaker, i find technical words easier to understand, since they are mostly derived from Latin =)

Mach

Mar 25, 2005, 09:10 PM

if i understand it well, either we make sure we get the pop flowing in, or we take the risk to secure one source of iron... based on what i've read, i'd say take the risk to go for the iron, but maybe i didn't understand correctly, feel free to correct me =)Sounds like you understand perfectly. :)

EDIT: actually, as a non-english native speaker, i find technical words easier to understand, since they are mostly derived from Latin =)As a barely literate american, I never would have guessed. :lol: Learn something new every day. :)

Lullaby

Mar 26, 2005, 04:43 AM

Now, I looked at the save and I believe that we are guaranteed a 4-turn settler factory -- Bombay could get to +5 food by using 1 irrigated plains cow and 1 irrigated game. So it is not in jeopardy.

Without both cows, Bombay will be low on shields. There is no choice for a 4 turn settler factory other than to bring the second cow in.

Anyway, as it is a draw, I will decide. Get the cow now, and the iron later, after the Ports roaded and mined it for us. :D

Lullaby

Mar 26, 2005, 06:25 AM

Got it, need to type at least 10 letters.

Mach

Mar 26, 2005, 07:08 AM

@Lullaby: Ok, I didn't work it out past the food. Let's see...
At size 5, it will us 1 irrigated game, 1 irrigated plains cow, 2 irrigated plains, and 1 mined grassland for...+5f, +6s. And it still has a forest. So I think it could go +6, +8, +7, +9 (using a grassland s-sw -- Delhi will bring that in)...before waste. So you're right, it couldn't be a 4-turn factory, unless we chop a forest and find a bg. Maybe a 5-turn factory...

I'll edit my above post just for fun

Lullaby

Mar 26, 2005, 07:38 AM

Turn 0, 1790 BC:
After re-reading the old turn logs I see that not only did we trade away writing (which is

ok because the AI neglects philo most of the time) but we also started research on CoL.

Bravery is a virtue, but sometimes less of it is even more virtuous ;). I'd like to change

research to philo, but don't. Following a plan I consider non-optimal is still better than

everyone doing his own stuff.

I just see that the planned warrior -> warrior -> worker cycle isn't possible for Delhi as

there is no fifth 2s/2f tile nearby. Will set up a warrior -> warrior -> warrior -> worker

cycle (or archer/spear -> warrior -> worker) with mining the game instead of irrigating.

IBT: Netherland warriors come in from the west

Turn 1, 1750 BC:
scouting

IBT:
Delhi settler -> granary
I decide for aggressive settlement against Portugal, meaning that I place cities cxxc to

theirs. We will need early culture and military then, so temples should be first builds.

Military should be provided by Delhi.

Turn 2, 1725 BC:
scouting

IBT: nothing

Turn 3, 1700 BC:
Bombay granary -> settler
As long as the factory isn't set up fully there is not much use in letting the population

grow.
Ship Isabella Myst and 51gp for HBR.

IBT: the Ports are already building their 5th city.

Turn 4, 1675 BC:
scouting

IBT: nothing

Turn 5, 1650 BC:
scouting

IBT: nothing

Turn 6, 1625 BC:
Found Madras se of the fp wheat. Return northern archer for mp duty.

IBT: nothing

Turn 7, 1600 BC:
scouting

IBT: nothing

Turn 8, 1575 BC:
scouting

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 1550 BC:
Return southern archer for mp duty. Two warriors will be enough for scouting.

IBT: nothing

Turn 10, 1525 BC:
Bombay settler -> settler

Made a new dotmap:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows02_1525BC.jpg

With aggressive city placement (blue dots) we could deny the Ports both iron sources. But I'd advice to settle the powerful pink dot city with its cow and two bg first. It's optimal as forbidden palace city. There is absolutely no hurry to get the iron, as there are two sources nearby and both can be secured. I'd go for pink dot, southern blue dot, red dots (first ring), purple dot int he south (secures silks) then the northern blue dot, if the Ports didn't already settle that area.

Horses are in our backyard, noone will take them from us for quite some time, so settling them should be of less priority for now.

We need to settle the first ring early to get enough culture avoid flips and enough military to scare off the Ports or even strike at them.

Definitely lead the southern archer home. We need the archers for barb fighting.

Once the area around Bombay is set up, let the city grow to size 4 and let it run. Setting the settler factory up is of higher priority than connecting Madras.

Delhi can run the archer -> warrior -> worker cycle from 4 to 5, but I fear Bombay will need the mined game because it lacks shields due to corruption.

Madras production could be changed to worker, but then a temple has to be the next building. Another possibility would be to let Madras grow and pop rush the temple.

No good trades possible, maybe Math for much money, I didn't test it and strongly advice against it even if it is possible.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Whoknows02_1525BC.SAV)

Mach

Mar 26, 2005, 08:00 AM

I just see that the planned warrior -> warrior -> worker cycle isn't possible for Delhi as there is no fifth 2s/2f tile nearby.I don't understand. Doesn't Delhi only need 4 bgs? At size 6, it can work the irrigated game (+2f), 4 mined bgs (+8s), one mined grassland (+1s), and the city center (+2f, +1s), which makes +4f and +10s. Growth in three, and we can do warrior/warrior/worker, or archer/worker. Done and done, right? Where am I wrong?

I'm busy this morning, so I don't have time to take a good look. Will later. :)

Lullaby

Mar 26, 2005, 08:15 AM

I stand corrected.

Sometimes it's strange, last time I checked it I took the city tile into consideration, this time I didn't :confused: .

Still I believe that bombay will need the extra shield of the mined game instead of working an irrigated fp. It will propably lose 2 shields to waste at size 5.

We could run the sf from 5 to 7, though.

Mach

Mar 26, 2005, 04:49 PM

Yep, I stared at it and you are exactly correct. Bombay will need that mined game for the shield; it is 20% corrupt. We will able to reconfigure once in another governent, so I think the granary in Delhi is still a good idea since it'll get the game then. But for now this is the way it is.

Besides that, the save looks pretty good. :)

Percy

Mar 27, 2005, 12:22 AM

heya guys =)
i can't stay too much, i have to take a plane in a couple of hours... i will grab the save in about 8 hours, when i'm back home. i will most certainly not play it right away, but it should be played in about 36 hours.
in the meanwhile, please do a recap of what's the plan, and of important things, so i miss nothing. i will re read the thread when i'm home, but two precuations are better than just one =)

Lullaby

Mar 27, 2005, 02:45 AM

Delhi should run a cycle like archer -> archer -> worker at size 5->6. Madras can pop out workers too. That won't be much of a problem. Delhi can provide all of the military we need early on.

As for Madras: either wait until 10 shields are collected, then pop rush the temple or switch to worker right now, start a temple once the worker is finished and pop rush it when you have 10 shields collected. Then build a granary, then workers.

All new cities should build temples first. With the aggressive city placement we need high culture to have cities flip to us rather than from us.

Mach

Mar 27, 2005, 09:03 AM

I like Lullaby's dotmap, although there's no dot for the horses. Send each settler to wherever you think is most important. I think our priorities are 1) iron 2) silks 3) horses 4) our core.

As for research, head for Republic.

All new cities should build temples first.I would say all new squeezed cities should start on temple first.

Edit:As for workers, let the game mine finish. Pair up the slaves into one effective worker once they're free. I would probably assign two workers to Bombay, and have the others connect up and work new cities. Delhi will need some more work in awhile, but it's fine for the next 10. Bombay needs 1 irrigated flood plain and 2 irrigated plains, plus the cow that's being irrigated currently. Let Bombay finish another settler, then let it grow into a settler factory.

Percy

Mar 27, 2005, 09:10 AM

okay guys, i'm back home, but i have plenty of friends to contact before i play some civ. no worries though, as i said, the game will be played within the next 24 hours, most probably within the next 8.

thanks for the recap Lullaby and Mach =)

i would like to discuss the silks/horses thing... since we grabbed HBR, i guess we're planning to go horsies, and i don't feel safe leaving horses open to foreign settlement, if they came to rush through a settler (as they do sometimes).

but in Emperor, we will get trashed by unhappiness... so, your thoughts ? horses/silks ? silks/horses ?

Percy

Mar 27, 2005, 06:17 PM

Turn 0, 1525 BC: okay, there we go... trying to get impregnated of the game, re-reading the thread, looking at maps, then checking pretty much everything in the game. everything seems ok, or at least i can't see anything wrong ;) just one thing is that we don't have any embassies. i will wait a bit before establishing some, to see if we don't have a need for our money, and to use the establishing to get a better reputation with ports once we settle on pinky.
Delhi is on a granary, i let it so. i will most likely pop-rush the temple in Madras first, to ensure the tile domination in the top-part.
out of curiosity, Ports and French want 5gpt+160g for Math. yeah, sure, like i will =)
let's roll for my first SG-turns ever =)

IBT: GAH ! a Port settler pair is coming out of Oporto, and is one square NW of our pink dot. if it is going for it, we're toast, we're 2 turns from there, they are just next to it. i'll try anyway, hoping they mess up trying to get a farther dot. otherwise, i'll redirect the settler to the southern iron.

Turn 1, 1500 BC: Northern Archer enters Madras. Try and rebel now. Direct Southern Archer towards the North, as instructed. Settler moves on the hill, Worker irrigates FP.
Checking cities: emphasize shileds over food in delhi, so we get granary before it reaches size 3. Waste 2 food in Bombay but no way to optimize it. Madras will get pop-rushed in 2 turns. we might need a MP there, or just rise the lux for one turn (temple coming next).

IBT: Ports pair moves on the cow... i hope they will not settle on it... if they don't, the spot is ours. if they do... they deserve to be crushed ^^ (keep cool i won't start any war ;) )

Turn 2, 1475 BC: Fortify Archer in Madras, move southern archer northwards. i check techs, and the netherlands have learnt Map Making and don't know HBR. i establish an embassy in Amsterdam: they are 18 turns away from completing the pyramids. they have 3 (three !) cows, all mined, plus a mined BG... that's sick ^^ Netherlands know everyone but spain... trading Map Making will probably prove impossible. i tryi. it proves.
I move the settler on pinky and pray. one slave finishes mining, i move him with the other slave.

IBT: good news: the Ports walked in the jungle, the pink dot is ours. bad news: they moved south, which means it is almost certain they are going for the southern iron. of course, the AI may screw up and go for the mighty jungle/mountain area ^^

Turn 3, 1450 BC: Mine completed near Delhi. Move the other slave on the hill, to road/irrigate a plain. Settler does what he does best and settles. Bangalore is founded, and starts a Temple. i pop-rush the temple in Madras as well. CoL is due in 7. i build an embassy with ports for 31 gold (that's a bargain ^^). Lisbon is size 3, 5spt, and 40 turns away from the Oracle.it has FPs, Wines, 2 BGs and a cow (once more, we're playing in the Hamburger Farms ^^).
some more bad news: France is ahead map making, maths, and _philo_. Port is ahead MM and Maths, Dutch are ahead MM. the plan is to trade Philo + something when we get CoL, and do a min research on Rep, right ? i build an embassy in Paris for 40ish gold (we now have 44g left and research at 100%, that is -2gpt). Paris is size 2 and completing a settler. MM'ing Bombay in the next 3 turns will result in it spawning a settler on its growth.

IBT: French start the Oracle. Portugal pair is acting funny. a lone Russian Spearman appears next to our worker near Madras... smells funny...

Turn 4, 1425 BC: i keep exploring and moving workers.
Madras: temple => granary
Russia and England know all the leaders, and have 62 and 50 gold respectively. i'm tempted to sell them both HBR, since it is of little value now. temptation grows. temptation becomes uncontrolable. i do it. with the money i establish embassies in Moscow and London for 92g total. Delhi will build granary in 4 and grow in 5, perfect.

IBT: more movement, nothing special. Ports pair will definitely settle southern iron.

Turn 5, 1400 BC: worker finishes irrigating FP, roads. slave roads plains. MM a bit.

IBT: more movement

Turn 6, 1375 BC: Bombay spawns settler, starts a Temple to help the cultural struggle. Settler departs to the Northern Blue Dot to bring us iron. the russian spear is standing there, i hope he won't fortify =/ worker finishes working the tile cow, so moves to link madras.

IBT: nothing

Turn 7, 1350 BC: Worker starts roading to Madras, settler moves in the spot left free by the russian spear.

IBT: nothing

Turn 8, 1325 BC: Delhi builds granary, changed to Archer. Madras influence expands, yay. found Calcutta east of the iron, and start a temple. adjust science since there are only 2 turns remaining to get CoL. squeeze 1 gpt, weepee.

IBT: nothing

Turn 9, 1300 BC: bombay is now growing every two turns, rocks. lower the slider again, that makes +4gpt for one turn, we're getting rich guys ^^

IBT: Ports found a city... 5 squares of Delhi !!! that means, in case it's not obvious (no reason it is) that the Southern Blue Dot is still free !

Turn 10, 1275 BC: we discover CoL, i launch Literature.
THIS IS ONLY A PLACEHOLDER, NEXT PLAYER SHOULD TRADE FOR PHILOSOPHY SO WE CAN GET REPUBLIC.
Bangalore grows to 2 and becomes unhappy. in 2 turns, we can pop-rush a temple, so i used a scientist. feel free to change that of course. worker near Madras finishes roading plains and starts irrigating it. MM Delhi so it gets an archer next turn. it should be MM'ed again for proper grow.
we have a choice for Bombay, since the Ports screw up: either we let it grow as planned, or we can create a settler in 2 (growing at the same time), to rush for the southern blue dot. that's my personal favorite... it's up to the team of course.

okay, quick summary, cause i definitely wrote too much:
- don't forget to trade
- don't forget to MM Delhi
- decide what to do about Bombay and settling the southern blue dot.
- there's a russian spearman near Bangalore. it doesn't look menacing, but we all know about the erratic behaviour of the AI. might be worth it to ask them to leave. or cause a war. we cannot defend the city if it is the case, so i really dunno.
- we need workers FAST.

that's it, here's the save, screenie will be on next post.

Percy

Mar 27, 2005, 06:18 PM

wow, that's some jumbo post i wrote ^^ sorry guys, i'll try to make it more concise next time... first time, i didn't want to be too vague. well, no risk o.O

here's the situation.

Mach

Mar 27, 2005, 06:55 PM

Looks pretty solid, percy! :) I don't have much time, but I'll make a few notes.

We're in dire need of workers.
We're also in dire need of mp's. I'm not so worried about the Russian spear, but really our cities ought to be covered. Delhi should switch to building warriors again.
Next settler to the silks, I think. We might lose the horses that way -- the Spanish are close -- but I'd rather have silks over horses since we have iron. But I can see people might disagree with that one, and they might be right.
I'm tired of the ai's knowledge of resource location -- the Porto settlement of Sagre is irritating. That's a core spot, so we're gonna have to take it later.
Lotsa trading available. We should get a lot of techs and gold in the next preturn! :cool: I'll examine this later...
Bombay building temple? I'm not sure of this, but I'm not sure I have a better suggestion either... :)

Percy

Mar 27, 2005, 07:21 PM

well, i needed to let bombay grow, and since we're under high pressure, i thought it was an idea. obviously, i'm not strongly backing me up on this =)
as i suggested, however, we could get a settler in two turn, with it growing in two turn, to colonize the second iron. if we're lucky, this could mean a control over the only sources in quite an area, since resources in C3C are supposed to be scarce. as for delhi, the "problem" with warriors is that it is wasting quite a lot of shields, so long as it cannot produce 10 at a go.
about getting silks, we have to take into consideration the amount of work it'd need to bring them home, and the pressure (both culturally and militarily) that it might provoke.
anyway, the above is just opinions, along with your post, it should give some basis for a team-wide discussion.

DBear

Mar 27, 2005, 07:50 PM

Percy, are you saying someone already got Philo? I was trying for the Republic slingshot, sorry if it failed.

Mach

Mar 27, 2005, 08:18 PM

@DBear -- yep, someone got philo, and it's gotten passed around a bit. But we got a monopoly on CoL, so we got great trade opportunitites. Start trading with the Ports, who have the least gold, and work up the list...I think we should be able to get all known techs plus all gold, if it's played right. Unfortunately, no workers available, that would have been sweet.

@Percy -- Yeah, if we settle a silks city soon they won't be useful for awhile. We have way more important stuff for workers to do. But that second lux will be a godsend once we're in republic and have no more mps. Plus, we'll have plenty of workers soon enough, with all the food we've claimed. The silks seem to be about halfway between us and France, and I'd like to claim it before they do.

Oh yeah and I see your point about wasting shields on warriors in Delhi. So I take it back -- don't build warriors in Delhi, build archers until Delhi is at 10spt. We'll just have to stretch the mps for awhile, and do the best we can keeping our cities manned. (How many shields are invested in Bombay's temple? Can we switch that to a unit? If not, I think our best move is to finish the temple; it certainly will be useful.)

Lullaby

Mar 28, 2005, 03:12 AM

Delhi will push out archers/spears every 2 turns after the last mine has been built. We will have plenty of archers/spears then.

Bombay could complete the temple an grow in that time. The settler factory is near to completion as I see it. I usually mine/irrigate before roading, though. I value food/shields over gold.

The silks should be settled next, then the second iron, then the horses, then the core.

The eastern core city could be founded on the gems instead of next to them, if that spot is still on the coast.

Get the fortified archer from Delhi to Bangalore for MP. One Archer is due in 1 in Delhi, another coming from the south in 2. Check for happiness.

Percy

Mar 28, 2005, 05:19 AM

only one civ has Philo, afaik.
i really think we should delay the factory in Bombay to be able to capture the second iron in 5 turns or so. then go for the silks. we have a shoot at iron monopoly on our continent, that's worth a LOT imho.
i roaded to make it easier to group workers as we see fit, without wasting time moving. if we need to irrig Bombay quicker, for example, we could use 2 workers without wasting any worker/turn. that was the idea, sorry if it was a bad one =D
as for trading, i'm pretty sure we need to start with the civs thazt have the MOST gold/techs to get the most out of our tech before the monopoly price drops.
and Rep slingshot was impossible to pull out in Emperor (for players like me at least ;) ) but we didn't lose too much trying, since philo is not worth much, less than CoL, i think, so we can make it up a bit by clever trading.

Mach

Mar 28, 2005, 06:30 AM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/who02_1275_trades.JPGas for trading, i'm pretty sure we need to start with the civs thazt have the MOST gold/techs to get the most out of our tech before the monopoly price drops.Well, most of the time, I start with the poorest civ, since I can get just techs from them, so by the time I get to the richest civs I'm just selling techs for gold. That way I can get everything from everybody.

However, in this case, Joan will give us Philo, Math, and all her gold for CoL. So you're right -- start with her. :)

Lullaby

Mar 28, 2005, 06:47 AM

That's the way I use to trade most of the time. Exception: monopoly techs will lose a large amount of value after first trade. I might get something valuable in exchange only at first trading.

Following the exception logic I'd go trade CoL to France or Dutch for the highest price possible, Dutch are preferred.

The safe way would be to trade for MM first, because it's the most valuable tech, but we might only get two techs in return if we take philo + math in the first trade.

Mach

Mar 28, 2005, 07:06 AM

@Lullaby -- Why are the Dutch preferred?

Also, I would get MM last, since Spain is down CoL, Philo, and Math. So if we do the trade with France, if the Dutch won't give us MM and their gold for CoL, we'll go get MM from Spain.

Percy

Mar 28, 2005, 08:04 AM

ok, my bad, i meant that when we trade for GOLD we should trade to the richest first, to get the most of money. when trading for techs, in case of many civs being tied, i agree we'd need to get money... check if Spain knows any of the rest. if they don't, it might be worth it getting MM from them, since we would sell CoL at monopoly price.

Lullaby

Mar 28, 2005, 02:26 PM

You might not get MM if CoL ain't a monopoly tech anymore, or only get it for extra gold or even gpt. Thus get MM as long as CoL has maximum value.

We actually lack 3 techs. If every civ gives 1 tech we get tech parity with the leaders. So I try to get the most valuable tech first. Of cource if I can get math + philo but can't get MM + 2nd tech I take math + philo first.

And Dutch are preferred to French simply because the French have more money -> propably a better economy. If I can squeeze at least one gp more out of France I'll do it though.

Percy

Mar 28, 2005, 02:48 PM

i'm not sure i understand. wasn't the plan to go min for rep ? if it is the case, we NEED philo to do that ^^

Mach

Mar 28, 2005, 02:56 PM

i'm not sure i understand. wasn't the plan to go min for rep ? if it is the case, we NEED philo to do that ^^I don't think we're talking about whether to acquire all known techs, we're talking about how to do it. I'm sure DBear will figure that out.

Now, I was thinking going max to republic, just to get there faster. We're religious, so it'll be a short anarchy, and if we get to rep first it'll be very valuable in trade. Anybody else want to chime in on that?

Percy

Mar 28, 2005, 02:59 PM

yeah i understand that, but my point is we might not be able to get Philo if we don't use the monopoly advantage that we will have only once with CoL. sorry i wasn't clear (i hope i am now :x)

Mach

Mar 28, 2005, 05:26 PM

Clear as day. Oh we'll get philo, don't you worry. :D We'll get philo and everything else, I'm sure DBear will figure it out.

Meanwhile, where are we?

I think we have a decent dotmap, and I think we're agreed that each player can decide where to send each settler. We have a few votes for silks next.
As for our workers, I think we're all in agreement to get our settler factory running asap. After that, I think setting up a worker factory should take priority over connecting iron, what do you guys think?
Hmm, what else? We should probably talk about min or max research on republic. I vote max.
Delhi can build whatever units create the least waste. Archers for now.

Is there any thing else we need to discuss?

Percy

Mar 28, 2005, 05:29 PM

i don't see any, but i'm no model ^^
to answer your points:
- i'd rather go for horses, but it's not a 99%-1% balance... more of a 55-45 ;)
- yeah, we need to pump workers as if there was no tomorrow. even if it means adding them to food-poor cities. we've decided to emphasize our food, let's maximize that.
- i say min on rep because i don't think max will be significant. if max means rep in less than 20 turns, then max i choose.
- agreed.

Mach

Mar 28, 2005, 06:29 PM

I feel the same way about the max run -- 55-45. I say max because I don't want to wait 50 turns to be in republic. Also I think if we wait 50 turns, someone will beat us to it. But I'm not confident in this.

It's tough to judge research time in the expansion phase. It may say "Rep in 40", but since our economy is busy growing, it may be actually 25. Makes this tricky.

DBear

Mar 28, 2005, 07:44 PM

Got it, will play tonight.

DBear

Mar 28, 2005, 09:52 PM

Whoknows02:
0) 1275BC: I see Spanish border getting near the horsies. Must have 'em! I see we got the iron ok. After getting the horsies, we should be expanding s. Only 2 workers? Cheez, we need more. Trade Law to Joan for Math + Philo + 142 (all her gold). Willy wouldn't trade Maps fairly for Law, but Bella will trade Maps + 22 for Law. What is that archer doing camped on the gems s of Delhi?

1) 1250BC: Delhi archer-->settler. I send the exploring units back home. We need galleys! Turn science up to get Lit faster. Max production at several towns. Why do we have a scientist in Bangalore? Put 'em to work!

2) 1225BC: Worker roads Calcutta. Henry whinges about warrior passing through Portugal to get back home. Bombay temple-->worker. Bangalore riots, doh! They're not roaded up yet, so the gems can't help 'em. OK, now I know why there was a scientist. I see now we have some Spanish slaves. Did we buy them?

3) 1200BC: Bangalore has exactly 20 shields left on the temple, so I crack the whip. Worker starts roading to Bangalore. Slaves start building Delhi-Madras road to shorten travel.

4) 1175BC: Bombay is set up to be a 2-turn worker factory. Bangalore temple-->archer.

5) 1150BC: Delhi settler-->settler. Open embassy to Spain. Madrid is far to the NE and they are 10 turns from the Pyramids. Looks like we're smack in the middle of everyone stuck with crappy land.

6) 1125BC: Bombay worker-->worker. A Portagee settler pair is trying to get around Madras. If they are heading for horses, we should beat them there. Bangalore connected.

7) 1100BC: Stupid gits found Coimbra 2N, 1NE of Madras. Our settler pair continues along Delhi-Madras road.

8) 1075BC: Bombay worker-->worker. Settler pair continues e, finds barb camp! crap! Send archer from Bombay to help. Whip Madras for grainary.

9) 1050BC: England and Netherlands have Poly. Nothing to trade Netherlands, while we are able to trade Maps + Math + 20 for it.

10) 1025BC: Bombay worker-->archer. Now that we've got a decent work crew, we can start building military. Wonder cascade time: Amsterdam builds Pyramids, Madrid takes Oracle. Archer takes out barb camp but is wounded. Settler pair arrives at site.

To do list: Found settler right where he is. Road over there and road the horses, start building them. Why Portugal hasn't claimed second iron between Lagos and Sagre I'll never know. We can try to found some towns on the s coast near the BG as well. We're getting there, but it'll take awhile.

We are last in rankings with 214. France is the leader with 297. OTOH we have much more culture than Portugal does. No screenie, as little has changed.

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 01:54 AM

Delhi as our most productive city shouldn't drop down in size too much. We need it as military factory. Building 2 settlers in a row might not be a good idea.

Very good job on trades!

I'll write more during lunchtime.

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 03:28 AM

Ok, here's more.

Getting the horses would be quite nice. Noone seems to claim the silks by now, so we got some time for that.

If Bombay is too corrupted to get 4 turn settlers out constantly, then it was absolutely ok to build a settler in Delhi. Otherwise I'd prefer to have Delhi stay at size 5 and produce units with 10 shields/turn. But I'm sure Bombay will make for a settler factory at least from 5 -> 7.

We do need more workers. Personally I never buy workers, but that's personal taste. But I build more of them myself. Madras should be set up for worker production quickly.

Change production in Bombay as it has no barracks.

Why Portugal hasn't claimed second iron between Lagos and Sagre I'll never know.

It already in their 21. They believe that they have it safe. :D

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 29, 2005, 04:11 AM

Hi, all,
I see it advances well and that my error on the Game Forest was really bad...
However, lets avoid empty cities. That spear in bombay can garison a border city.
We may want to rush Henry before pikes, don't we? With his settlement... horses and swords can crush him.
Also, it'll open our way for Amsterdam, I'd like to have the pyramids.
Horsies are a must before the silks, if we cant claim both. I see no good screenie so I'm a bit lost...
Sorry about the philo gambit, I thought that with only 3 civs with Writing we could do something.
Should have went on the philo immediatly.

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 04:50 AM

Victories enabled: Space Race, Diplomatic, or Cultural.

Only peaceful victory conditions are enabled, but warmongering isn't limited. I'd like to have a statement from whoknows about the conditions that allow us to declare war if any.

Personally, I wouldn't like this to become a standard warmongering game with a switch to space after we got ourselves 50 or 60% of the land. But that's only my opinion.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 29, 2005, 06:28 AM

I agree with you Lullaby, going for the domination limit and then milking a space is not the way I see this game.
However, we cant pass the entire game waiting for the space win, it'll be a bit boring IMO. I say lets use the iron monopoly (it seems to be???) in the beginning to expand.
A bit of warring can do us well... after settling the south and the east of course.

Mach

Mar 29, 2005, 06:41 AM

DBear, can I make a request? Please please please talk to us more in the future. We spent days discussing plans, and you diverted us from that pretty good. :sad:

Here were our plans:
We were going to be researching republic right now.
Bombay should be a settler factory right now.
Delhi should be a 10spt unit/worker factory right now.
Madras should be within 10 turns of a worker factory right now.

Instead, we're researching lit, Delhi is about to drop to size 1, we're not getting 4-turn settlers, and Madras has only one irrigated plains tile with no workers in sight. We have a worker team set up to connect those horses. First, piling workers like that is inefficient in this part of the game. And second, I highly doubt we'll be seeing any horse action in this game! We certainly haven't talked about doing attacking with horses, and if that was our plan then it should have been talked about by now. People have mentioned attacking with jumbos, but that's about it. Grabbing those horses was more for denial, trade, and build reasons.

So please talk to us more! Building workers in Bombay was an idea, but it screwed up our city plan, so it should have been talked about. Beelining for horses should have been talked about. I'm not saying our plans were the best ones, or that your plans are not good -- it's just that we should talk about these things. It's disheartening to have so much good discussion in this game, to see it all disregarded.

The silks have been claimed by the French. We missed them. That's gonna hurt come republic time.

Percy

Mar 29, 2005, 06:50 AM

with all due respect, i'm 100% with Mach on this one.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 29, 2005, 07:08 AM

I agree too, only a note about the Jumbos question. I certainly dont want to close ourselfs in the fix-idea "Jumbos, Jumbos, Jumbos". Lets not wait them to start playing/preparing a bit more agressively.
If not for attacking, several horses do miracles in defense, this is emperor we'll need them.
Am I the only one that thinks that a small war can do us well at this point?
The alternative is to try to hurry at max the AI research, which means to keep them out of wars (are there any wars out there?). I admit that I'm a bit unexperienced with this...
As I said in the starting discussion, a good win would be for me not to pass half the game wondering if our Huge Neighbor will come scalp us right before we built the last part of the evacuation vessel. Lets become the big brother, then the game is ours.

Percy

Mar 29, 2005, 07:12 AM

well, i am more of the warmongering kind, even if not necessarily good at it, because i don't like my games to last long. this one however, we aim for space, so it will obviously last long. still, i'm very open to fighting wars, any time =)
as for the Jumbos thing, i agree (cf my interventions about the pros for getting Iron asap). Chivalry has a very short window, with Mil Trad being not far if we want to beeline for it. so basing all our pre-indus strat on it is not a good idea. that doesn't mean we shouldn't use them, just not focus solely on them.

that's one more thing we should discuss: how do we want to "play" the game. it COULD be itneresting to dleiberately play little brother, it COULD be an option to just dominate and run away, etc etc. i think we should sit and talk.
and, PLEASE, follow what we decide ;)

whoknows888

Mar 29, 2005, 07:35 AM

I got it. I agree with you guys, but also following DBear in several SG with Bede and others DBear is very smart in what he does with the game. DBear please join in the discussions and make suggestions, but you don't have to do it all the time.

Researching Lit could get us more culture Mach and have a monopoly on it and then trade away for Construction or Polytheism although it was not a brilliant choice to continue with Lit. Although I rarely build TGL except if I am low in culture it may benefit us to dropping the science slider a bit down to gain extra commerce.

I believe I said this earlier in one of my posts we will try and have this as peaceful as we can, and only declare wars if war is inevitable. Also if we lack resources or luxuries we can entice a war that does not necessarly trash our rep.

Percy

Mar 29, 2005, 07:43 AM

the point was not to say DBear did bad things. but if he did do good things, it is useless if we're not explained why, and if we follow a collegial agenda when he's doing things on his own. i'm here to learn practically, not to just read a game report =)

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 07:43 AM

We certainly do NOT want to beeline for MilTrad. Space is about science leadership, so we want universities, Copernicus, Newton and if possible Smith's. I'd like Sistine's too because we are religious and will have some cathedrals. Also Sistine's + Smith's will trigger a GA if we haven't already had one.

We are going for republic. We desperately need luxies, much more than horses. Three is minimum.

Seems we have to fight to get our luxies. But imho we should focus on buildings/infrastructure if possible. If we do otherwise we could simply go for domination.

The second iron will be very important because we need to trade in luxies and money to keep our science up once in rep.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 29, 2005, 08:13 AM

That is the question. Do we fight - for luxuries, ressources, land etc. - or do we focus on internal development with what we have.
Domination is not an option. However, the bigger our empire is, the better its scientific output is. Lets build a nation that can be good enough under Democracy (~15 cities)
I wouldn't like to go on a someone capital's crusade to stop a launch.
In closer timelines, I dont want to be the pessimist, but with our actual army the war isn't going to be our choice IMO...

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 08:20 AM

I'd say as much fighting as needed, as few as possible. And we should play in a way that doesn't eventually lead to us attacking others. That's the reason why I'd like to get Sistine's. Temples + caths + Sistines + markets + 3 luxies are exactly what we need for size 12 cities.

Mach

Mar 29, 2005, 08:47 AM

Lots of good thoughts being thrown around here! I'll add a few points of my own, in no order whatsoever...

Myself, I had envisioned a peaceful expansionistic AA. There's lots of land out there to grab. I didn't envision any AA wars, certainly not any that would slow our growth.
After that I envisioned strategic luxury wars in the MA, pushing our borders. You could make an argument for pushing the Portos into the sea then...I figured that would be a topic of discussion.
After that I envisioned a peaceful time, when we could push research and do a lot of trading, try to speed toward our victory.
I don't know all that much about corruption, but I do know that there is an OCN, and I feel like we should stay somewhere around it. Khan's suggestion of 15 cities sounds very good to me.
We are (two? three?) techs away from the MA. Not far. I think it would be hard to build an effective horseman force right now -- we have only one first-ring city settled, and only one rax...in tiny little Delhi. If we did build one I don't know fow how long it would be effective.
I like jumbos, as you can tell. :) True their usefulness window is narrow compared to cavs, but they sure are dominant. Plus they will trigger our GA at a good time. I've found that research sails along nicely until you hit the MA wall, when things get expensive all of a sudden. An early-MA GA in republic solves that problem nicely, I've found -- research goes fast while in the GA, and if you build markets and libs with the extra production, you come out of the GA with a much stronger economy. Very powerful technique.
I like Lullaby's thoughts on wonders. What cities shall we build wonders in? I don't have the save in front of me, but...IIRC Bombay will be very productive once we're done building settlers, as will Delhi.
I like these list thingys.

Er, that's all I can think of.

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 08:58 AM

Delhi: many BGs
Bombay: two cows
Bangalore: cow + BGs

Makes three good wonder cities.
I'd build the FP in Bangalore to reduce corruption there.
We might want to forest the game again with engineering. 3f/2s is better than 4f/1s.

Interesting though, my typical game plan for space victories looks exactly like the one Mach described, with the exception that I don't fear having more than the optimal number of cities :D .

In most cases you can even trade in the resources in MA if you lack them. Oil should be secured, but the others could be traded for.

Jumbos are fine, they only expire with infantry. The extra HP makes up for nearly one attack point.So cannons + jumbos can even take on rifles.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 29, 2005, 09:00 AM

IMO we have about 30 turns ot get to MA.
If we control the Iron the Horsies will be very usefull for long time, then upgraded to whatever you want (Jumbo/Cav), for even longer. But we must deny the Iron to the portoguese.
Sorry for throwing orderless ideas... Lets first get our defense up and claim whatever we can peacefully.

Mach

Mar 29, 2005, 10:07 AM

I see it advances well and that my error on the Game Forest was really bad...Sorry Khan, I just saw this and...actually it was pretty good. Bombay is too corrupt to be a 4-turn settler factory using the flood plains. However, if it uses the mined game instead, it can get to that state. Once in republic, we can reconfigure the settler factory (if we still need it) to use a mined plains, leaving the game for Delhi to use...which is good for Delhi because then it can use some of those hills/mountains for shields. All in all, there was nothing very bad about clearing that forest, you just did it a little early that's all. :)

Also I think you're right, if the Portos don't have iron, horses will be just fine for us for awhile -- with them we can take back that core spot, and maybe even drive to their wines. (If we decide to try for the French silks, then we'll probably need better than horses...) I hadn't thought of this.

No need to apologize for 'orderless ideas' -- they are just the ticket right now. :) However, if I may be so bold, I'd like to try writing some instructions for who. How about this:

We continue with the city plan: settlers in Bombay, workers in Madras. So let the workers finish in Bombay (road the hill, road/mine that grassland), then send them to Madras. Grow Bombay and start building 4-turn settlers when it's at the right size. Switch Madras to worker, and put it on high food.

Meanwhile, switch Delhi to temple, so we don't waste shields. (With the horses claimed, and the silks taken, I don't think we have an immediate-right-now need for a settler.) Grow Delhi into 10spt, building archers on the way up. Get the horses hooked up with that roading crew. At that point Delhi should be close to some sort of horse/worker cycle. Switch all other cities to rax, and after that build horses (and cheaper mps as needed).

Finish lit then start on republic at max. I haven't looked at the trade situation; is there anything available?

When the correct time comes (sometime in the MA, we'll have to talk about this someday) we'll merge workers into Bombay and/or Delhi, put them on high shields, and start building wonders. But we won't be doing this for awhile, maybe in 30 turns or something.

Does this plan sum up everyone's ideas? This way we'll strengthen our cities, continue our expansion, and in the meantime we'll see what kind of horseman force we can build up. If later we find we have enough, we'll figure out where best to use them. Sorry for writing such long posts this morning, I've had a bit too much free time... :crazyeye:

Lullaby

Mar 29, 2005, 12:02 PM

Just had a look at the save and must say that the last turn set threw us some years back. The workers are stacked up to build a road to the horses, which we propably won't need before MilTrad. Delhi, our most productive city, is about to drop to size 1. Bombay is set up to be a settler factory but lacks people. Madras needs 4 more tiles developed to become a worker factory.

On the other hand that's nothing that could not be healed. The game would have been a piece of cake if we had made no errors. No it simply gets challenging. ;)

Imho the settler by the horses should move one tile south before settling. No need to put the city under pressure from the culture heavy Spanish.

Delhi absolutely must change its build to military. Bombay should get out the archer and then do what it has been chosen to do. Madras has to be developed soon. Hooking up that horses can wait for quite some time.

Whoknows is up.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 30, 2005, 03:20 AM

Workers stacked on unroaded tiles :eek:
Sorry about that, my CivTherapist says that when I'm chocked like this I must calm down......... DZEEEEEEEEEEEN ........... I'm just a kitty ...........DZEN. (Anybody seen View From The Top?)
OK. I think it's OK.
I agree with Mach's schema, except for the archers builds.
Lets build spears or warriors for defense and MP... I just don't like archers upgrade tree.
EDIT: Can somebody upload a screenie, I'm at work right now and I dont see things. Thanks

Mach

Mar 30, 2005, 06:39 AM

Screenie! The red circle is the roading crew (3 workers and 2 slaves), and the blue circle is our settler. Lullaby wants to move that settler one tile south, and I agree with him.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/who02_1025.JPG

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 30, 2005, 06:59 AM

Wow, I've been totally lost! Should have checked the save last night.
I thought we were under AI expansion pressure, turns out not... A lot of land to settle out there, though jungle. Lets try to get the max before switching.
Settle SW of the horses IMO. Spain are religious too, we can't chalenge them on culture.
Protect Madras, Bombay spear.
We're on the crossroad between 6 nations. Promising, and I think the peacefull developpment will be tough in these conditions.
Good Luck WhoKnows. Is there a chance for me to play tomorrow night CET? If not I'd like a swap, not a skip during the weekend, please.

Mach

Mar 30, 2005, 08:50 AM

If it helps Khan, I'm willing to swap with you, so you can play earlier...

Yep, we got a lot of land left to settle, even after our core -- there is room on the other side of Sagres, and even some on the coast east of Avignon. If who plays carefully, Bombay will be in settler factory mode in just a few turns. (I know you can do it, who! :) )

Percy

Mar 30, 2005, 08:54 AM

hehe, it makes me giggle everytime... Avignon is the city i live in ^^

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 30, 2005, 09:00 AM

Thanks Mach, I'd love to.
So eventually I'm on deck for a play tomorrow.
Percy, is it London or Avignon???

Percy

Mar 30, 2005, 09:01 AM

most of the time it is London, since i'm studying there, but for the holidays i'm back in Avignon =)

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 30, 2005, 09:10 AM

I see. Can I make a proposal, try to be in London when we'll go for that silk lux over there, not to be part of the 1 pop lost on city capture or a resistor, OK?
Well, I admit that from the screenie i'm not sure if London is the best place, you may soon have to learn Russian:) Betty is a bit back in expansion, and with Cathy next door...

whoknows888

Mar 30, 2005, 05:53 PM

Sorry it took me so long, school started back up and I reread the things that are most important.

Turn log:
preturn: Lit in 10. Every other build looks good and maybe some MMing.

turn 1 1000 BC: Delhi settler -> archer. Why are the workers stacked? If their were roads then I would agree with the stacking, but since there is no roads where these workers were going they should not be stacked. Archer in Delhi moves with the settler.

turn 2 975 BC: Founded Lahore. Worker in 10. Nothing else except barb movement.

turn 3 950 BC: Bombay archer->archer. Moved the just built archer to Madras. Nothing else
IBT: Isabella blackmails us and since they have more units than us I fear of war. I give in.

turn 4 925 BC: movement of some units nothing major. French warrior near our borders. Must be exploring.

turn 5 900 BC: Calcutta temple -> worker. Delhi archer -> archer.

turn 6 875 BC: Bombay archer -> settler. Netherlands is at war with Portugal or is about to declare war. Karachi founded and have second iron in our borders.

turn 7 850 BC: Bangalore archer -> worker. Lit in two. Bombay will create a settler after a growth to size 6.
IBT: FRANCE DECLARED WAR AGAINST THE NETHERLANDS. NETHERLANDS ASKS US TO HAVE A MILITARY ALLIANCE AND A ROP WITH THEM AGAINST FRANCE. I WILL LET THE WAR PLAY OUT AND IF THE NEXT PERSON DEEMS NECESSARY TO SIDE WITH ONE OR THE OTHER BE MY GUESS.

turn 8 825 BC: MMing some cities and thats about it.

turn 9 800 BC: Republic in 40 turns, got TGL building in Delhi. WWI may break out soon. Bombay settler is in 1 and Calcutta's worker is in one.

turn 10 775 BC: Bombay went into Civil Disorder, my bad because I forgot to raise the lux slid or make an entertainer. I will allow the next person to make the following moves for workers.

Lullaby

Mar 31, 2005, 01:38 AM

Nice turn set.

We definitely can't go to war at that stage. We need to develop infrastructure first. Else build a lib.

Delho should stay at troop building routine.

Bombay will need MM on growth.

Start building libs will boost our research and culture as well.

Any trade possibilities?

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 31, 2005, 08:23 AM

Ladies and gentlemen, Whoknows2 plane has a new pilot for a while now.
I've got it, will send the black box to you tomorrow.
Research at 0 gpt is probably the first thing I'll change. It'll be either min or max, if it's still at the previous save's situation. Haven't looked at the save yet...
And, do we really want TGL? It hasn't been discussed, Lit research neither, with nothing out there to trade (i think???) but I'm against. Expand and solidify for now.
Maybe a rop(s) to speed AIs burning shields in units? What do you think?
EDIT: Mach, thanks again for the swap.

Percy

Mar 31, 2005, 08:30 AM

do we need TGL ? in monarch i never build any wonder (except when i have SGLs or when i REALLY have nothing else to do ^^), since it's a learning game, in a not-too-hard diff setting, maybe we should not...

Mach

Mar 31, 2005, 08:44 AM

Mach, thanks again for the swap.Of course, my good man. :)

Well, I don't have the save in front of me, but I do have...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/who02_775_trades.gif
So it looks like we might have some trades. Think we can net both currency and construction? Khan, you know what to do with this. :)

Pretty nice work, who. I was able to look at the save last night before falling asleep, and I noticed some workers are astray, like one near Bombay mining a hill -- we won't use that hill until republic. Khan, you can stop him and use him for something better. Also I think Bombay is still a grassland mine short of a 4-turn settler factory; we need to get that done. Also I think I question a few builds -- we need rax in our outer cities, for instance, if we're gonna build military there. Also I agree on TGL -- we don't want it.

I hope I'm remembering stuff correctly, I was pretty tired when I looked at it. :crazyeye:

But that's all small stuff; things look ok. I recommend going max on republic... Also let the ai's fight, jood gob on that who. :)

Edit: ROP, interesting idea. If we get something out of it then maybe it's worth a try. Although if we have to pay them for one, then maybe don't bother...

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 31, 2005, 09:26 AM

I intend to hold trades for a while, I hate paying monopoly prices and Monarchy may pop.
If it does, I'll revolt. 1 turn anarchy worths despo penalty, and monarchy has better MP numbers.
I'll also download MapStat, I've never used it, seems like an interesting tool...

Lullaby

Mar 31, 2005, 09:29 AM

we need rax in our outer cities, for instance, if we're gonna build military there.

Fine with me, though I think we need to set up libs/markets/courts soon (in this order). Delhi should switch to city enhancements once the first outer city gets a rax ready. Until then It should build archers only. They have highest value when other civs compare military and will scare them the most. As Delhi finishes its market it should go on prebuild for Sistine's.

Bangalore should go for any wonder as FP prebuild.

Currency and construction are monopoly techts right now and will be very expensive. No, we won't get both as we lose our monopoly bonus on lit after the first trade. Personally, I think the marketplaces from currency are of high value now. The moment we got republic we are tech leaders.

Lullaby

Mar 31, 2005, 09:30 AM

I intend to hold trades for a while, I hate paying monopoly prices and Monarchy may pop.

The cheapest tech not known and not currently researched will pop from a goody hut. This will be currency right now.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 31, 2005, 09:36 AM

I meant they can research it, with 4 AIs capable (with poly) I doubt that it'll take long.
There must not be many GH left at this stade.
We should be medieval soon. Lets hope out of despotism too.

Percy

Mar 31, 2005, 09:47 AM

i don't remember who know who (^^), but if the civs knowing currency and construction don't know each other, we could indeed get a 2fer for Lit and some cash. cash that we could try and get back by selling lit around.

Khan_Asparuh

Mar 31, 2005, 09:53 AM

I think France and Portos know each other... MM is out there. Maybe they'll swap...

Mach

Mar 31, 2005, 12:12 PM

@Lullaby -- starting a city on FP is a good idea, methinks. What do you say, Khan?

(There's a part of me worried about our future military -- with Madras making workers, Delhi on wonders, Bangladore building FP, Bombay on settlers or maybe wonders...who will build our troops? We'll need deterrant troops at least. But I think I'm worrying too much, so I'll shut up now.)

Khan, I would look to see if you can perform any trades, and if they seem favorable to you, then go ahead. If we can get currency for lit (at 1st) and poly (at nth), then it's possible that we can get construction for curr (at 2nd) and lit (at 2nd). That would be sweet. Remember that we're going for space so we want to hurry tech along; don't be afraid of that. I'll just trust your judgement on this, Khan, good luck!. :)

Lullaby

Mar 31, 2005, 01:54 PM

Well, Delhi should build some archers first.

DBear

Mar 31, 2005, 02:01 PM

Do we want to give up our lit monopoly?

Mach

Mar 31, 2005, 02:50 PM

If we get good value for it, yeah. The only time to guard a monopoly is when you want to deny a tech to your rivals, which often happens with mil trad, or whatever tech brings you hoover's (electronics?), etc.

But we have no reason to deny libraries to people, and we're not going for TGL. So we ought to extract the value of the monopoly by trading it if the price is right. If we don't get anything for it, then we might as well not have had the monopoly in the first place... Make sense?

Khan_Asparuh

Apr 01, 2005, 01:48 AM

Black Box found. What d'you know, the plane is still up with it!
Some worker management. We have two workers mining hills... 12 turns for a single shield is a lot IMO. However, one of them is doing this for 7 turns already, I'll let him finish. The other will mine the plain Bombay needs. There is a third one roading a forest, 1 turn left... We're wasting early worker turns :(...
Automoved warrior... I guess he's going to Karachi, that's OK, but it's not in the SG code of conduct.
Karachi build changed to Temple. This city is under Portuguese pressure allready. Barracks there will only be a waste of money now.
Research at max, Republic in 26 at -8. With scientist in Bombay it goes at 24. Delhi changed to temple, in 3 turns after growth. Calcutta and Madras go on Libraries, I see no profit of the rax, those cities are under pressure and too close to Lisbon. We have a bit more culture than Portugal, but it may not last long.
Bangalore build changed too. This city has shields (unlike the FP ones), I set it to barracks. And sorry for all these changes.
English pay 16g for RoP, I think it won't hurt us. No trades possible at all. Let's hope Lit won't be demanded away.
Embassy in Berlin for 56g (while it's cheap), they are far away, 6 pop and 3 lux including Ivory and expand (settler due next turn).
Enter...
(IBT) Huge Dutch force heads for France, 4 warriors.
(1) 750 BC Bombay Settler-Settler.
Nothing new on the diplo screen.
(2) 730 BC Lahore Worker-Harbor, for trade purposes.
(IBT) Portugal joins the Dutch in their quest for Frenchmen, I like this :)
(3) 710 BC Delhi Temple-Spear
Spain picked Construction, they'll trade with Portugal for Currency, I still hold on Litterature (crossing fingers).
France has a worker for sale, I get him for 68g and 2 gpt. He'll connect our future city in the SE. Temporarily research lowered on
Bombay is 1 shield short for a 4-turn at 4-6 cycle. But it can be at 5-7, so I set build to Spear. It'll take several turns to set...
Enter...
(IBT) Various troops cross our lands.
(4) 690 BC Bombay spear-settler. I split the slaves near Bangalore, a porto horseman is on the cow - I can't improve it. Noone trades :( I feel bad with that monopoly tech in hands. Research temporarily lowered at 70%.
(5) 670 BC I stare for 15 minutes at Bombay (6 pop, lux to 10%), I'll stop it's growth to get the settler in 2 turns and then try to make the cycle. NO TRADES, what is the AI doing? Spain is researching Lit, France would give Construction for Lit and 8gpt...
Kohlapur built in the SE. Enter...
(6) 650 BC Horses almost connected. NO TRADES. Delhi is at 10 spt. Spear-Spear.
Enter.(IBT) Germans join France against William, they have an archer in the area, Will is certainly frightened. Who said WW1?
(7) 630 BC Monarchy is out there Dutch swapped it with Spain for Construction. Bombay Settler-Warrior and then can go 4 turn settlers. (2 turns).
(IBT) Joan and William back their allies and sign peace:(.
(8) 610 BC Isabella is in anarchy noone else is researching Lit so I hold trades for another turn. Bangalore Rax-Horse.
(9) 590 BC Delhi Spear-Spear, I'm sending them in the border towns. Karachi's temple is rushed.
(10) 570 BC Karachi Temple-Worker, Jaipur founded on the Banana jungle.
Finally Spain, Portugal and Netherlands are medieval and all have Monarchy too.
I do the following trades:
Lit and 2 gpt to Henry for Currency and 6g
Currency and Lit to Joan for Construction, all her 21g and RoP (letting her to do harm on Portugal... I hope)
Lit to William for 124g (market price, if I had sold it at 3d it would have been only 135)
Isabella has only 2gpt to offer, I hold. Up to the next player.
Science at max, Republic in 12. I have underestimated Madras, it grows fast, maybe Lib build must be changed to Rax (2 shields lost) and make it a unit/worker factory. It has a scientist now, feel free to rearrange it. Lux must go up next turn for Delhi, Madras and Bombay.
I would precognise: when we become a Republic, pull Germany and Russia up for their free techs - actually they lack 3 each + lit. And Germany doesn't know the world - they ignore England, RUSSIA and Portugal. Nice trades can be done.
Normally the settler factory is set, Delhi is optimised (needs the mines being built actualy), it can help in expansion. Don't let it grow beyond 6.
We can get a second sea access if the French raze that Portuguese city in the south.
There you go. Now I will retire with one of the stewardess of our plane. Discussing the strategy...

Khan_Asparuh

Apr 01, 2005, 01:50 AM

As for Delhi's archers, we have 10 archers and 2-3 spears. We're bad with all our neighbors with horsemen. That's why I focused on spears.

Mach

Apr 01, 2005, 08:38 AM

Magnificent turns, Khan. :goodjob: A few notes...

I'd like to change our horsie city (Lahore?) to temple or library, since it's so close to the Spanish. Harbor would be great to have, but Spain is religious too, so I'd like to secure this city against flips in the future.

What to do with Madras? This will be a worker farm by the end of my turns, by hook or by crook. I think I should whip the library, either now (it has 38 shields to go), or when it's down to 19 shields to go. I can time either one. I don't like the idea of building rax here instead, since it won't need a rax for a long time. Also this city needs two more irrigated plains to get to +5fpt and +5spt, I'll take care of that.

Um, that's it. Really solid turns. Our biggest problems are 1) only one lux, 2) foreign soldiers crossing our territory (our cities are pretty well manned, but more military would be good), and 3) Spain is annoyed (I'm not sure this means anything, but they may be out of settling room, we're their only neighbor, and the front city there has only one archer manning it). Pretty good situation. :)

Any suggestions for me, anyone?

Khan_Asparuh

Apr 01, 2005, 09:23 AM

As I said, I was really surprised by Madras. I left it like it was because I couldn't find a way to solve the problem...
If we whip the lib, we'll have serious hapiness problems to deal with. We do already over there. It'll be worse in republic. But still I prefer this solution, when it's down to 1 head needed for a whip (actually it's up to 5spt if we give it 10% of lux, so it means 4 turns or so).
I agree on horsie town's temple, harbor can be built in the banana town (to be connected soon).
I'm going on WEEKEND.
:dance: :wavey: :bounce: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :band:
Don't you just love the bounce smiley!
And, yeah, try not to win this one before I get my next set of turns, I'm really enjoying it. Thank you.

Mach

Apr 01, 2005, 09:37 AM

Yeah, I'm leaning toward whipping later when it's under 20 shields to go. Plus I just realized we'll be in republic probably 14 turns from now, maybe less. In rep, Madras can be a 2-turn farm at size 5, because of that mined plains! Which helps with the happiness situation; Madras at size 5 with some whip memory will need the same lux slider as Delhi at size 6. :) So something like this...

Work on library for awhile.
Whip lib when it costs only 1 citizen.
Set to worker and build 3-turn workers for awhile, slowly growing Madras to size 5.
Revolt to republic.
Tune our size 5 Madras to a 2-turn worker farm.

I'll just have to figure out the timing of the growth...

By the way, I can play tonight, in 10 hrs or so.

Lullaby

Apr 01, 2005, 10:59 AM

:dance: :wavey: :bounce: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :band:

I recognize Steve Harris, Bruce Dickinson, Adrian Smith, Dave Murray, Jannick Gers and Nicko McBrain. But who are three guys to the right? ;)

Good turns.
I don't have much experience with pop rushing, Normaly I'd rush the lib in Madras now. But if I remember correctly the Temple in Madras had been rushed and that was less than 20 turns ago.

Getting both irons, some more gems and a harbor for trade issues would be another fine thing.

Percy

Apr 01, 2005, 11:10 AM

I recognize Steve Harris, Bruce Dickinson, Adrian Smith, Dave Murray, Jannick Gers and Nicko McBrain. But who are three guys to the right? ;)
my guess is Clive Burr, Paul Di Anno, and Dennis Stratton ^^

Lullaby

Apr 01, 2005, 12:48 PM

As long as Blaze Bailey isn't there everything's ok ;).

Mach

Apr 01, 2005, 08:56 PM

Preturn -- MM Madras, change Lahore to temple. Everything else looks good.
(I) France wants alliance vs Dutch. Um, no.
Dutch horses are positioning themselves by Sagres...are they gonna attack the Portos?
Delhi spear --> spear

T1 (550BC) Bombay has very little corruption, actually. Can Delhi take the game now?
(I) Nope, the Dutch walk right past Sagres. Darn.

T2 (530BC) zzz
(I) Delhi spear --> horse
Bombay settler --> settler

T3 (510BC) Ok, I place a settler in a core spot, unguarded, next to a Porto settler pair. Unless they settle a heavily pressured city right now, I'm gonna beat them to it. Ha!
Yep, the original plan was solid. Bombay has low corruption. Delhi could be using that game right now if Bombay had more tiles upgraded -- it's missing one mined grassland, or one irrigated plains...oh well, we go with what we got.
(I) It's fun to watch the Portos and French fight. :D
Bangladore horse --> horse

T4 (490BC) Found Hyderabad, start on rax
Whip the library in Madras
(I) Yes, it's very fun to watch ai's kill each other. Portugal's getting tagged.
We get the FP message
Madras lib --> worker
Kolhapur worker --> temple

T5 (470BC) I put Bangladore on FP
(I) Delhi horse --> worker

T6 (450BC) We're gonna have to get irrigation to Lahore somehow, so I move a worker to chop the forest in the Hyderabad Pass. I'll set us up for this irrigation push.
I think the Portos are going to beat us to our last core settling spot, damn. I don't have the forces to block him... Help, French, help!
(I) The French are slaughering the poor Portos.
Spain and Dutch sign a MA against Germany, heh.
Delhi worker --> horseman
Bombay settler --> settler
Madras worker --> worker
Portugal discovers the Republic!

T7 (430BC) So we'll get Rep in 4 turns @ 45bpt. The Portos want 26gpt for it. Sorry, no deal.
(I) The French aren't much help, are they. That porto settler is approaching that core spot.

T8 (410BC) zzz
(I) A single Porto archer takes out 3 French archers, heh.
English build ToA.

T9 (390BC) zzz
(I) Fight, fight!
Delhi horse --> worker
Madras worker --> worker
Karachi worker --> library
Jaipur worker --> temple
Dutch finish GL
Spanish finish HG
Heh, looks like the French beat us to that core spot, not the Portos. Diverting settler...

T10 (370BC) Well, there's nothing the Dutch will get in the next IT with the GL...otherwise I'd sell them stuff.

That's it, uneventful turns. Not much to say. We got beat to a settling spot, so I'm moving our settler so a spot somewhere south of Kolhapur. The next settler can go sw of Karachi, and then we're about out of land. Maybe another up by Lahore.
Republic comes in next turn, we had just enough gold to research at a deficit, heh. If we revolt right away, unit costs will eat us up. What should we do?
We have lots of workers (14 and counting) -- so I think we should let Delhi grow now. Bombay, too. They want markets pretty badly.
Our culture is double what the Portos have, and we have some cities under heavy pressure, so we might get some flips soon...cross your fingers!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Who02_mach_370bc.JPG

Teh Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Who02_Mach_370BC.SAV)

Lullaby

Apr 02, 2005, 02:05 AM

Looks good so far. Sagres will eventually flip. We should build temples/libs/courts/barracks, then some elephants, start a small war with france to conquer the silks, use the GA mainly for cathedral/uni/Sistine building, maybe get that ivory from Russia and will be perfectly set up by mid MA.

Mach

Apr 02, 2005, 09:13 AM

Haven't seen one of these in awhile...

Roster:
DBear -
whoknows888 -
Mach - just played
Khan_Asparuh - swapped
Lullaby - UP
Percy - on deck

Lullaby

Apr 02, 2005, 12:45 PM

Turn 0, 370 BC:
We have enough units for now, two or three in every city. Delhi can switch to other buildings.
Switch Hyderabad from barracks to temple. We lack luxies, we will need the temples happiness.
A cow is being irrigated near Bangalore. What for, there are plenty of flood plains nearby?
One city is missing between Bangalore and Delhi. But this isn't of high priority. It is deep in our lands.

IBT:
RoP with England expires. I don't see any use for it right now, so I stop it.
Henry wants 3 gp. I'm scared. I pay.
Bangalore loses its barracks. That's what happens when you have negative income and get demanded.
Republic is in. Set research to feudalism as we can use Sun Tzu as prebuild for Sistine's.
Bombay settler -> settler
Lahore temple -> lib
Delhi worker -> lib

Turn 1, 350 BC:
Madras is at 4 spt at will build a worker every 2 turns with 2 extra shields.
lux to 0%

Revolt!
We have -2 gpt in Anarchy. We definitely have to many troops.

IBT: nothing special, except for numerous foreign troops trespassing through our lands and BLOCKING OUR ROADS, HINDERING OUR WORKERS!

Turn 2, 330 BC:
Nothing to do

IBT: nothing special

Turn 3, 310 BC:
We are now a Republic

We have a high monetary deficit. I change libs to markets. But still we may need to disband some warriors.
lux at 10, science at 0, feud in 50 with a single scientist, +2 gpt

The english settled the western spot near the cow. Only one place left, so I turn down the settler factory for now.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 290 BC:
Found Begal in between Delhi, Bangalore, Karachi and Bombay. Production set to Temple.
Stop a worker from clearing jungle in the south, order him to road to the designated city spot on the coast.
Lux to 20 simply to get every citizen working except for a scientist and a taxman.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 5, 270 BC:
Found Chittagong on s coast.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 6, 250 BC:
Hyderabad temple -> market
Science to 10 at last

IBT: nothing special

Turn 7, 230 BC:
Science to 20, feud in 40 insteas of 47
We have to do self research, nothing to trade away. I'm going to connect these two iron sources, -1 gpt right now

IBT: nothing special

Turn 8, 210 BC:
nothing

IBT:
England and Spain ally against Germany
Dutch and French ally against Portugal

We are all for ouselves. Peaceful builders. Violence is no solution.

Turn 9, 190 BC:
nothing special

IBT:
Spain and Durch ally against Portugal

Seems the Ports are into deep horsecrap :D

Dutch want 20gp. With their troops already roaming our lands I pay. But I'll remember.
Dutch are building Sun Tzu.

Turn 10, 170 BC:
Science set to 30, feud in 22 instead of 36
No deals possible
Calcutta riots. My bad.

No screenshot today. There really isn't anything to see.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Whoknows02_India_170_BC.SAV)

Suggestions:

Maybe joining the war against the ports will proof useful. Take one or two cities, especially get some wine to the north, and make peace. But this isn't allowed to delay our infrastructure building. We need markets, then libs and some courts. And we need to get our trade resources hooked up.

Mach

Apr 02, 2005, 08:57 PM

Looks like a good set, Lullaby. :thumbsup: The loss of that rax was my bad. Just so everyone knows, we had 3g, and we could get Rep if we ran -1gpt...and of course Henry took that opportunity to demand our 3g. :rolleyes: There must have been a way for me to get that extra beaker during my turns, so that defecit wouldn't have been needed... My bad. :(

I love the market builds, and I love all these wars. I don't know about joining any of them, however -- our offensive force consists of 3 horses. I think we should stay out of war for awhile. We should have decent infra in place when we get chivalry, leaving us in a great spot to build jumbos.

Also, great job getting us into rep, and keeping our economy alive. :)

Percy

Apr 02, 2005, 08:58 PM

ok, i've got it but should be sleeping. game might be played within 19 hours. or not =)

Lullaby

Apr 03, 2005, 01:35 AM

I love the market builds, and I love all these wars. I don't know about joining any of them, however -- our offensive force consists of 3 horses.

We have numerous archers and some warriors waiting for upgrade. No money to do that though.

I'd love to get these wines.

Percy

Apr 03, 2005, 09:51 AM

Turn 0, 170 BC: MM Bombay a bit, to earn 2 beakers over 4 turns... every little bit helps ^^ have a quick glance at the rest, fixing slightly here and there. i'm worried by the heavy foreign presence within our borders. can't really ask them to leave though ^^

IBT: Russia and France ally against Ports, Spanish Archer kills a Port Archer within our borders. Joan doesn't renew our RoP. i dunno what to do, i don't like troops roaming our lands, but i fear this might be a prelude to war. oh well, i'll take the odds. France moves towards Sagres. i think war against Ports is a definite no-no, since they have so much entry points to our territory, with direct acces to our workers ^^

Turn 1, 150 BC: Delhi: Market => Library, Madras: Worker => worker. i have to lower research as we are currently at -7gpt and only have 5 gold ^^ we go to +8gpt, but feud in 27. of course, i will raise science again asap. start clearing jungle near Jaipur, this city will never do anything otherwise.

IBT: England demands our 5 gold. i give in, and promise to myself i'll burn england. Dutch start Sun Tzu. many fights and troop movement. it's very confusing having to distinguish Purple, Mauve, Pink...

Turn 2, 130 BC: create a Scientist in Bangalore to prevent a revolt. workers work. i can run at -2gpt so i raise science.

IBT: Battle for Sagres is raging. no one is coming out winner yet.

Turn 3, 110 BC: Madras: worker => marketplace. we have 50gpt in unit support...
tech summary: England is on par, Germany have monarchy and lack Rep and Construction, the rest all have monarchy, 3 have feud, 3 have mono, with the dutch having both. i try to get monarchy for construction from germany, to trade for their free tech: he wants Const + 15gpt for monarchy, no thanks.

IBT: Germany finishes SoZ in Leipzig. Dutch start AoW, Russian start the Wall.

Turn 4, 90 BC: bah, i dunno what happened, lost one turn on Bombay.
ouch, science situation is bad now. England is on par, everyone else is ahead monarchy, monotheism, feudalism, Portugal, Germany, and France have Engineering on top of that. i will take decisions that you might not like: i'll trade our only horse and iron source for techs and money, to accelerate the road to jumbos.
sell iron to dutch for mono + 1g. sell horses to liz for 67 gold (all they have, horses are worth nothing to ports anyway. with the gold, i can research Feud in 6 turns.

IBT: Sagres is defended only by a redlined horsie.

Turn 5, 70 BC: bombay: Market => lib. it needs a scientist to stay happy. so does Madras. that's 4 scientists, i check if i cannot get better by using the slider instead. i use a bit more gold (obviously), but it's a good idea overall i think.

IBT: Sagres finally falls to the French. Germans start Sun Tzu. Spanish troops go back in Spain, but they send a settler pair through our territory as well.

Turn 6, 50 BC: nothing

IBT: Spain start Sun Tzu.

Turn 7, 30 BC: nothing.

IBT: nothing.

Turn 8, 10 BC: Delhi: Lib => cathedral. i don't dare producing more units when we're alreayd crippled by unit support. a worker finishes linking Gems, i send him link another one. we'll use it to trade. i sell it to the Dutch for 6gpt. that's REALLY low. but we badly need money, and no one had a better proposal. besides, it will stop only 4 turns after the iron deal ends, so it's not binding us too much i think.

IBT: Germany and Spain make peace.

Turn 9, 10 AD: Jaipur: Temple => Harbor

IBT: Poorts and French sign peace.

Turn 10, 30 AD: we know Feudalism, i start on chivalry at -3gpt, in 15 turns. Calcutta: Market => lib.

NOTES: Calcutta is set on max food to grow in 2 turns. it will then have reached the maximum size, happiness-wise, so it can go to shields again.
nothing much to add to that, i hope i didn't miss something important. i didn't dare disbanding warriors without discussing, but i think we should seriously think about it.

no screenie, the situation has not changed (we won't expand before jumbos ^^)