High time for a new game in the Space-x series.

This time I'd like to try a straight Sid game. I'm considering Continents or Pangaea, but every setting is up for discussion at this point in time. The game itself will start somewhere in April, so we've a while to make up our minds.

The current roster of Sid-master wannabees:
Karasu
Mad-bax
Northern Pike
Space

We've some room for a few more players, but be prepared for a relaxed pace and a friendly atmosphere. ;)

Greebley came up with an interesting idea: start with less AI than in standard for the map size. Will this be easier or harder. Only the shield costs are much lower for the AI, still the same amount of food is needed to grow AFAIK. It could be that in those circumstances we would have a bigger chance to grow to a decent size. The AI will be big anyway. The SG Sid games show that the AI will gobble up the runts anyway with their access of units. That being said a Sid AI that big from the start might be impossible to beat.

Thoughts?

I'll join.

Build rate affects food needed, so Sid AI only need 8 food to grow when towns, 16 for city, etc. For this reason, I think Greebley's idea will make things much much more difficult. Unless the two go to war, there is absolutely no way to keep up. And if they go to war, what if one starts winning. His idea seems insane to me, but maybe I am missing something.

That's quick! :lol: You're in.

We'll see just how crazy this team is... :yeah:

Looks like some familiar names here! :yeah: Got room for me (and can you trust me to actually play on-time? :blush: )

If you're lookin' to grow big, I'd say AGR is a no-brainer. Dutch and Sumerian seem good.

Isn't this KA01B, with Karasu in for Kaiser_Berger? Or Gator01B, with Karasu in for Kaiser_Berger? Or the staff team in SGOTM3, which I lurked if you remember, with me in for Zagnut, and NP for a who am I forgetting? [I see there were only five, so trade NP for Zagnut and trade me lurking for me playing]

And I don't care what promises you make, ainwood, considering this team and the level, I will be surprised if this is finished come next March.

@Ainwood: sure, welcome to the team. :)

@MeteorPunch: we played the Dutch in Space-2, so I would like a different choice this time. We'll consider AGR if we play a wet world. We'll definitely need to fight to win though, so MIL has its benefits too.

edit: @bed_head: :lol: You can't say I didn't warn you....

Aztecs meet Sid? That might be fun. Never seen them there. Of course, no Alphabet, and we could find ourselves in a tech hole fast even if we have a decent empire. Then again, I guess getting out of a tech hole is what the MIL is for.

@space - I know what I signed on for. And my first ever SG, Jumpmasters1C, went 7 months, believe it or not. I can manage with this group. And maybe Northern Pike will be able to keep us on track. Or not. :lol:

And I don't care what promises you make, ainwood, considering this team and the level, I will be surprised if this is finished come next March.:mischief: There's always MB to take the blame....

Hmm... Agricultural... Militaristic... No chance to play the English, then? :mischief:

English are my favorite, and I'd love to play as them. Not that it matters.

I'm easily pleased. Sumeria would be a laugh. Despotic GA, early war against overwhelming odds. :D

Can't believe Sid is that difficult anyway, particularly when I'm being carried by you guys. :)

I'm easily pleased. Sumeria would be a laugh. Despotic GA, early war against overwhelming odds. :D

I thought the Enkidu's would scare the ai off for awhile allowing some growth. I've been wrong before though.

Can't believe Sid is that difficult anyway, particularly when I'm being carried by you guys. :)

Oh, didn't I tell you? You're supposed to carry us... ! :eek:

edit: The way I look at it we 'just' need to survive until rails. I'm not sure what's the best way to achieve that. A decent defensive UU could come in handy, but we need a usefull GA too.

France then? France and the Netherlands best fit both roles, space, and you already indicated your feelings about the Dutch. Or we could abandon one of those, and go for one of the Chivalry UUs for a useful GA, or go for the Greeks to get a good defensive (at least one more useful than Enkidu's).

Hmm, yes, the French would fit the bill nicely.. if we have saltpeter.
We'd need to go with an arid world to improve our chances. The better human infra strategy should be helped by it.

Hey, I don't want to survive... I want to rule the world! :D

If we want an arid world, we cannot surely pick the Dutch or the English... :p

Well. I have been looking at the C3C data, but I can't find a civ I'd like to play -they all look good...

@Karasu: I know, I find it hard too. Actually it was the other way 'round, Arid if we choose France, we can go for Wet if we choose the Dutch or English. Any preference for landmass?

The way I look at it we 'just' need to survive until rails.
IMHO the most critical parts are:
1) Survive until you have a decent defender. Yes, defender - attacking is one thing, but being able to fend off the AI something completely different.
2) Prevent a single runaway Civ. No matter how weak you are, that isn't the real problem - as long as there is a AI Civ strong enough to hurt the strongest AI considerably.
I know, this is easier said as done; but, if you go to war, choose the correct victim, and choose your allies wisely.

The first point makes France an extremely good choice. And, France works extremely well for 'Capture the GLib' strategies due to the UU.

Fewer Civs should make it a lot more difficult; your only chance for pre-industrial wars is jumping the gun and :hammer: a Civ that already is under pressure, or bring in lots of allies.

Any preference for landmass?

How about Pelago.

But that's not a real preference, just to keep the discussion going.
Do we want to make our life easier or not? And how much anyway?

How about random everything? Including playable civ.

Roll half a dozen starts and discuss them?

Standard world size.

It would feel like winning then.

Islands seem to be kind of a standard for Sid tries. It's easier to grow and it gives you a defendable position and hopefully a slower tech pace, the downside is the need for extensive logistics to make any kind of impression on the world. If we decide on islands we'll need seafaring to get to meet the neighbours before they are in the MA (Modern Age, in this case!).

I was edging towards continents, if people are willing. I guess that'll make the start tougher, but the middle game easier.

edit: I like that idea, MB. All or nothing! :thumbsup:

I like it too :cool:

edit: I like that idea, MB. All or nothing! :thumbsup:

Any victory counts, right :D .

OK, random it is then. I'll roll some starts later today.

Ahh, it feels good to be back! :bounce:

Ahh, it feels good to be back! :bounce:

Yes it does! Look, I took this out of an old drawer for the occasion ;)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/smilies/ole.gif

Any victory counts, right :D .

Right! And I will not use my usual whine about hounorable tactics in this particular game either. :) BTW Meteor, you didn't say, but do you wanna play too?

I'm already in an SG with MP - a nice lowly Emperor game. It's a bit of a romp. :mischief:

we should make him play. :evil:

I'm already in an SG with MP - a nice lowly Emperor game. It's a bit of a romp. :mischief:

we should make him play. :evil:

:lol: I just quit a SG because they take too long :lol:

I'm finishing the 2 I started though.

Right! And I will not use my usual whine about hounorable tactics in this particular game either. :) BTW Meteor, you didn't say, but do you wanna play too?

I thought you guys were going for space? :crazyeye:

Good luck, Space and Company. :) I wish I could join, but I just can't take on a game as demanding as this right now. Have fun storming the castle!

Edit: Whoops, looks like it's full already, anyway! I need to get with the program.

Renata

What if we started a Chieftain game after this one... :smug: :smoke:

Oh, and, Meteor... that was a signup, right? :D

We still have a 5CC 100K to do. Probably best not to do that on a large C3C map though. :rolleyes:

Good luck, Space and Company. :) I wish I could join, but I just can't take on a game as demanding as this right now. Have fun storming the castle!

Edit: Whoops, looks like it's full already, anyway! I need to get with the program.

Renata

Thanks. I would've made room for you, Renata, we can use another good player to compensate for my turns. Chances are that we need several tries, so feel free to jump in later.

Shall I put you on the roster then, Meteor? :p

I'll be lurking...like I am right now :scan: . good luck!

Pity, Meteor. This means there's a spot open, seven is a good number for this team. :p

Here are come the starts: all standard size, all else random even barbs... AI on "least aggressive".

The first start I rolled has Greece, a good civ for Sid, usefull UU. And this is the only one with food bonii, on flood plains though.

The next roll showed a start very like the one for Space-2. No river, no food bonus. The only thins going for it is the defendable landscape.

There comes the first rolls! :goodjob:

They look interesting, but... What will destiny show us next?

Gotta love that RNG. :shakehead: :D
There's a river in this one and what seems to be coast too, not bad.

Here's another dry start, it has wheat though, if we find water, it's an OK start.

:bounce: You just can't imagine what it is to see them coming up live... :cooool:

Spain is not the first choice, but that's the charm of random isn't it?! This looks a bit better, Green, River and Coast.

This is the last one, and doesn't it look good?! :D
River, Strong Civ, Forest for shields and chops (IND, remember? :cool: ). This might be the hardest because it feels like Pangaea more than the others, doesn't it?!

Oh, please, one more, just one more, come on... please... prettyplease :D :mischief: :D

Too bad I have kids, Karasu, I've aquired immunity to pleads... :smug:

I wish, sigh.

I've aquired immunity to pleads... :smug:


I should have known... :shakehead :lol:

But then... Just another one... ;)
I mean, you can't stop at F - France, when there is at least G - Germany waiting, not to mention H - Hittites, I - Inca, J - Japan and K - Korea... all the way to Z - Zulu!

EDIT: Oh, well... I see... so you are really immune... ;)
I guess I'll go home then and think about the six starts.

Hey, I guess I am! :smug: This time...

Space <- picturing Karasu in lotus posture comtemplating the nature of those starts. :cool:

Good Lord, what an explosion of discussion--and from a group known for leisurely play, as Bed Head observes. Clearly Civ belongs with sex in the category of things much more exciting to talk about than to do. :lol:

Karasu, it's great to see the wave smiley again. :D

I'm sorry to be negative, but to start a Sid game without fresh water and a food bonus is just masochistic. So only the Greek start is even thinkable--and with the boni on flood plains, barely so.

The real problem is that a Sid start needs to be examined quite a few turns into the future to establish whether it's remotely playable. I could look at some starts from this point of view in a few days (after which I'd play last). OTOH, if the rest of you want a death-or-glory exercise, fair enough; but I'd still recommend a start better than any of these.

Ah, the sound of reason to put us firmly back on earth..., welcome NP, good to 'see' you. :D

I do like the idea of just play what you get, even if this means we'll have to start over a couple times. I could roll a few more using Mapfinder to get at least a river and 1 food bonus as a compromise. Most of us have no experience with Sid, so I'll accept common wisdom, but it would be exciting to see if it can be done at all.

I want this played very carefully and with loads of discussions in between turnsets. I think it'd be cool if we'd manage to pull of a win with a so-so start, and also to see where we lose it if we do.

I agree that fresh water is a must, that leaves A, E and F. Food bonii are nice but we will not have the time to set up a settler factory anyway. *All* of our cities will need careful management to not lose any of the shields available.

I think we should try to play F, and see how far we can get, but if most of you want me to roll some more starts (Zulu's anyone :mischief: ) I'd be happy to.

I do like the idea of just play what you get, even if this means we'll have to start over a couple times.

If that's the basic concept for the game, no problem.

I think the mapfinder option is a good one. One aspect I like about a couple of the screenies is that we appear to be tucked in a corner - being surrounded always seems a problem, especially in higher levels with aggressive, and encroaching civs.

I'm not so keen on greece, because of the risk of a despotic GA (same with enkidu's).

Roll starts for France, Sumeria, Maya, Netherlands, Persia and Iroquois, and set rivers to 1, food bonus to 1 and luxuries to 1 and pick the best start for each civ. If you like I can roll some of them for you. A run for an hour on each civ should give a reasonable start for each.

We can then decide on an order of preference. If we get killed with our first choice in 20 turns we can move on to the next etc.

I don't really want to play the game ahead to see if it's easy enough.

Yuk. Mapfinder is a good idea.
If you want I can roll some too, tonight -maybe the Zulu :p or the English.)

I will adapt to any game concept you choose, Space. "Death-or-glory" sounds good, though, as well as a sado-masochistic approach -or should I say Sido-masochistic... ;)

Oh, it is good to see NP's words of wisdom once again. You know, I feel like I haven't played an SG with you guys for ages... :)

I am all for playing in a "Sido-masochistic" manner, in case that influences anyone's decisions.

In my experience less civs can make the game both easier and harder.. it depends on the map (settings).
Less civs on a 60% world with a settler factory start makes it easier imo.. you will usually be allowed to expand peacefully till 1000BC sometimes to near 10AD before running into other civs.
Less civs on a 80% map is harder since you end up with stronger AIs filling up the land about as fast as lots of smaller AIs would fill it up, it becomes harder to expand once you cant expand peacefully any more.
Less civs on a 60% map (specially huge) will make some really fun MA combat thou.. having to kill 50+ unit spear/archer stacks :p

Hmm, receiving mixed signals. :scan:

Wouldn't rolling high food starts feel like cheating already? I need to sleep over this one. One thing is clear though: no playtesting the map. We'll take it as it comes.

Thanks for offering rolling the starts MB and Karasu, but I can put mapfinder on random civ too and that's what I'll do when I decide that that's the way I want go. I'll generate a good number and pick the best ones for you to prioritise. Maybe there even will be Tommies in the selection, just to please Karasu. :D

edit @Gyathaar: We decided to go for a random setup, so we'll just pick the standard number of civs this time. Who knows in a year or two, when we've finished this one, we'll try the limited civs variant. ;)

Thanks for offering rolling the starts MB and Karasu, but I can put mapfinder on random civ too and that's what I'll do when I decide that that's the way I want go.

What is this mapfinder tool?

What is this mapfinder tool?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=75992

It's a tool made by Dianthus and Moonsinger, where you can state what tiles you want to see in the start, and it will start generating maps and saving the ones that comply with your settings. I'll add a link in a minute...

edit: Thx Gyathaar... :D

I played around with Mapfinder and discovered a downside to using it: one can guess the landmass type by knowing the domination limit... luckily I am more familiar with the number for huge maps, so I'll try to not look at them too carefully and will not mention them in this thread.

Also at least 1 river tile and a foodbonus and a lux is too rare for my taste. Leaving out the lux requirement finds about 1 in 10, which is low enough. I've excluded floodplains, jungle and march tiles, but forgot to exclude tundra. I will let if run tonight with turndra excluded also, but to compensate I will allow floodplains. I probably will be able to put them up tomorrow evening (GMT+1).

Can we have at least 3 river tiles, only BGs and forests with furs, and 4 food bonuses? :mischief:

...and a partridge in a pear tree.

You boys keep trying...! :D

Mapfinder has found 100 starts, I'll post a list of interesting ones in a couple hours. :coffee:

:wow: 100 starts with 4 food bonuses, river, BGs and the partridge? :wow:

Er... ehm... just how many are the 'interesting ones' out of the 100? Only 20? And do we get to play the Zulus? :mischief:

:wow: 100 starts with 4 food bonuses, river, BGs and the partridge? :wow:

Er... ehm... just how many are the 'interesting ones' out of the 100? Only 20?

Depends on what I think will make a good set for a heated discussion...

And do we get to play the Zulus? :mischief:

Ha! That's up to the team. I did notice a couple of good scandinavian starts... :viking:

Maybe tomorrow then.
I cannot sustain a heated discussion right now -actually, I am only waiting for a lady in a French B&B to answer the phone before supermarkets close tonight... :hmm:

I did notice a couple of good scandinavian starts... :viking:So you're suggesting that we choose our civ based on what smilies we have available? :p

I knew you would understand...!

I have completed the alphabet of choices, now I need to consider how I'll present them... :eek:

The first 5 new starts... note that A till F are still available too.

This will do wonders for my post-count! ;)

And more...

The last batch.

I suggest that each member of the team choses 3 starts ordered by preference. The start with the most points will be the first one we'll attempt.

Choose carefully because we'll give it our best shot and the game will likely need a lot a lot of time invested in it.

I think K, then N, then P.

Thanks bed_head7, could you tell us what your considerations were? (I have my preferences too, but I'll wait until some more votes are in... :))

Spain probably has not been played and beaten at Sid, at least not that I am aware of, and that start looks like it gives us a decent shot, even with a neglible UU and so-so traits.

Greece seems like it should have a decent shot, another I have not seen win at Sid, and the map feels like a continent one to me for no real reason at all, and I like to have friends with whom I can trade.

England is my fave, we have a nice corner that we can make our own, and, oh yeah, I have never seen them victorious at Sid.

Edit: Notice a theme?

:goodjob:

Now, who will finish second in the "I can choose between 26 almost equal starts"-race?

Actually, I think Spain has decent traits for Sid. REL is more useful than it might seem; it may save you 14 turns of Anarchy (if you go Commie).

Space, thanks for all the work you've put into generating these starts. :queen:

I'll need to put some study into this before I list my choices. ;)

SO! After all, you are *not* immune to pleads... :D
...but now I feel guitly for all the work you went through for us ;)

Well, my preference:
1. (ex-aequo) K-Spain, V-Dutch4
2. (ex-aequo) Z-Mongols, Y-Korea
3. P-England

Ops, it's five starts :mischief:

And why these, you are going to ask. Well, I don't know. I kind of liked them... :D

Actually, it is a mix of civs I'd like to play and starting positions that look reasonably good (then who knows, maybe it's a 10-tiles island in the middle of the ocean with all the AIs on a lush Pangaea...).
So, Spain and Dutch seemed to me the best combination -at a first impression, I must say.

Mongols and Korea are there for honesty: it was me to ask you for Z-Zulus and for a 4-food bonus start. So, I was obliged. Still, they are at least 'interesting' starts, so to speak...

And England, well you know that England has always been in my heart. :D

[...]Mongols and Korea are there for honesty: it was me to ask you for Z-Zulus and for a 4-food bonus start. So, I was obliged. Still, they are at least 'interesting' starts, so to speak...

Indeed, I've put those 2 in just for you (to get to the magic letter), so I'm glad you picked them. :goodjob:

So the tally after 2 team members voted is:
K - Spain - 4 points
T - England - 4 points
V - Dutch4 - 3 points
N - Greece - 2 points
Y - Korea - 2 points
Z - Mongols - 2 points

I like the Byzantine start.

The Carthage start could be OK so long as we can find some shields from somewhere. And the greek start is good too.

The four wheat start would raise a few eyebrows, and that is the only one I would not consider.

OK, so why the Byzantines? :)

The current tally:
K - Spain - 4 points
T - England - 4 points
J - Byzantines - 3 points
N - Greece - 3 points
V - Dutch4 - 3 points
O - Carthage - 2 points
Y - Korea - 2 points

Votes cast by bed_head, Karasu and MB, still to vote: NP, Ainwood and Space

ps - don't worry, the wheat start is a joke. It was produced along with the other starts though, same settings.

I like the Byzantine start because it has enough shields + all the obvious reasons. I don't like a seafaring civ as a Sid Civ though.

Any of the starts could be OK or disastrous. You need to play 30 turns into a Sid game to see if they just decide to kill you or not.

NP is right about playing in really. I would just prefer to find out its a hopeless case and try the next start, until we get a playable position.

I'm a fundamentalist about settler factories, so my choices are

1. T-Celts,

2. R-Dutch, and

3. X-Sumerians.

The Sumerian start is interesting in that there can hardly be another civ to the south, so we'd be guaranteed a little room to expand in that direction.

Edit: T is a Celtic start, not an English, so there's some confusion in the posts above.

Thanks for pointing that out, the T in my former summaries should be P.

The currenp pally:
K - Spain - 4 poinps
P - England - 4 poinps
J - Byzanpines - 3 poinps
N - Greece - 3 poinps
T - Celps - 3 poinps
V - Dupch4 - 3 poinps
O - Carphage - 2 poinps
R - Dupch - 2 poinps
Y - Korea - 2 poinps
X - Sumeria - 1 poinp
;)

Voted: BH, Karasu, MB, NP, still to vote Ainwood, Space

Re Settler factories: will we have time to set one up before room to expand runs out? I am a complete n00b to this level so I don't claim certainty but I have my doubts.

Re Settler factories: will we have time to set one up before room to expand runs out? I am a complete n00b to this level so I don't claim certainty but I have my doubts.

A fair question. I've used settler factories with good success at Sid, but then I usually start on an island. :D I do feel, though, that getting to +5 food is tremendously useful whether circumstances permit a by-the-book, four-turn settler factory or not.

The 't' :lol: or "all" 't's ? :lol:

Well, I did like the Carphage and the Celps sparp too, so -as I said already- it doesn't really mapper which one we pick in the end.

Actually, I like the idea of ranking them and playing them in sequence -until we win or we die, of course :)

I'm fine on all of the top options - never played sid before, so I don't really know much about this....

I like the idea of Celts though, mainly because agricultural is excellent, and the gallic swordsmen is a good UU. Am a bit concerned about a despotic GA though, but its better than having a defensive UU.

Ok, translated your choices as follows
Celts - 3
Spain - 2
England - 2

So the current tally is:
K - Spain - 6 points
P - England - 6 points
T - Celts - 6 points
J - Byzantines - 3 points
N - Greece - 3 points
V - Dutch4 - 3 points
O - Carthage - 2 points
R - Dutch - 2 points
Y - Korea - 2 points
X - Sumeria - 1 point

I'll cast the final vote in a few hours and we'll have our final list. I'll put up a new thread with the start after that. I'm planning on doing a bit of spreadsheet accounting on the starting tiles - an absolute first for me... :eek:!

You know, I tried myself to set up such a spreadsheet, then grew too lazy to use it... :D But I would be interested in seeing what you have in mind.

U - France
They're my favorite because I want a shot at using them to see whether they really are that shields production wizards. They start in a position where we can hopefully build a full core instead of a half one.

X - Sumeria
IMHO the best start, a good civ too, a bit of an early UU but that need not be a problem.

And finally, to have a clear winner, my final vote goes to....
K (formarly known as T) - England

So the final tally is:
P - England - 7 points
K - Spain - 6 points
T - Celts - 6 points
J - Byzantines - 3 points
N - Greece - 3 points
V - Dutch4 - 3 points
U - France - 3 points
X - Sumeria - 3 points
O - Carthage - 2 points
R - Dutch - 2 points
Y - Korea - 2 points

Spreadsheet is still in the making, in fact I haven't even started yet... :blush:
I'll start a separate game thread as bit later. We'll keep this one, for further discussion, in case a new game is needed... :suicide:

And finally, to have a clear winner, my final vote goes to....
K (formarly known as T) - England


Ehm... Did you mean K-Spain or P-England? :crazyeye: Or both? ;)

Krtsdf hasdt jksudt? Shdfbryt hdfuie! :D

Space <-- hopefully less confused after some sleep... that's what you get when you post in a hurry. I finished cotm10 today, and my husband was getting a bit cranky already with me being 'absent' for most of the day... ;)

The proper game thread can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115540).