http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-2150BC.zip

Well I had to restart the game as we shared a single landmass with at least 3 other civsm the first try. IMO this was a false Archipelago. It certainly wasn't how I wanted the game to play out.


3500 BC
The first hut I popped gave us Sailing.


3200 BC
We are not alone, as I have found the Ottomans. No trades occur at this time.


3150 BC
I pop another hut and get Alphabet.

Our outrigger meets the Aztecs. At this point I am not sure if we are on the same landmass.
I ship them Domestication and Sailing for Masonry, Warfare and $34.
Sailing and $70 go to the Ottomans for Pottery.


3050 BC
The Wheel and $18 goes to the Ottomans for Scrape Mining.
The Wheel and Pottery goes to the Aztecs for Ritualism and $4.


3000 BC
I find another hut and get Naval Warfare.
I sell Naval Warfare and Ritualism to the Ottomans for $182. I hate large blocks of cash in the AI hands.


2900 BC
I meet up with the Vikings. I get the $66 out of their treasury using Pottery.


2850 BC
I give the Aztecs Naval Warfare and $115 for Cultivation.


2710 BC
I find the French whom are hopelessly behind in tech. $17 isn't even worth the bother of empting from their treasury.


2590 BC
The Wheel and $20 goes to the Vikings for Slavery.
I empty the Aztecs treasury of $129 for Slavery.


2550 BC
Tikei is formed and we claim elephants.


2430 BC
I ship the Ottomans Slavery for Caste System and $10.


2350 BC
Math and $50 go to the Ottomans for Mysticism.

==========================


Summary:
We need to beeline to Elephants. We share the landmass with just the Ottomans. War can't be avoided in that situation.

The current mini-map and where I found the civs.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-660.jpg


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Microbe
Romeothemonk


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Our initial starting area:
Note the total lack of luxuries.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-661.jpg

Ouch. Ugly capital position. Why didn't you move 2 NE?

Got it. That start is ugly, Haraiki will make only 7 base shields fully mined until we get International Port.

Checking in. Just to note, I will be away over Easter from Friday till Monday.

The starts not quite as ugly, Haraiki is on a hill, and the seaweed/kelp/whatever it's called gives 1 shield. Still not great, Haraiki will only reach 9 base shields.

2150BC: All good

2110: Maths to Aztecs for 142 gold (all they can afford)

2070: Maths & 45 gold to Vikings gets us Urbanisation

2030: Vikings are coming to attack with a tribal guard & a champion, I switch Tikei to Otomo no Makuta (Archer), move a tribal guard from Haraiki to Tikei

1990: Make contact with Sioux, give them Maths & Naval War for Writing & 250 gold, start on Dynasticism
Give Vikings writing for Fermentation & Weaving
Establish Ottoman embassy, they're size 4 with 2 tribal guards, no improvemens, 3spt, building stonehenge due in 53 turns
Writing to Ottomans for 75 gold
Embassy with Sioux, they're size 3, no improvements, 3 T.G defending, building archers
Fermentation & Weaving to Sioux for 44 gold & 4gpt (all they can afford)

1950: zzz

IBT: Vikings declare war, champion attacks and dies, T.G moves on to our elephants

1910: Tikei builds archer ---> Asian Clan
Archer redlines T.G. but dies, our T.G. finishes it off and starts back to Haraiki

1870: Haraiki builds Forge ---> Asian Clan
Make contact with Korea, they're well behind with only 27 gold, I give them slavery for all 27 of it.

1830: Ottomans extort 54 gold

1790: zzz

1750: Give the Aztecs weaving & writing for Mythology & 8 gold (all their money)
Give the Sioux Mythology & 620 gold for Dynasticism, immediately revolt (5 turn anarchy) and start on philosophy
Give the Ottomans Dynasticism for 301 gold & 8gpt (all their money)

IBT: Vikings declare war, champion attacks and dies, T.G moves on to our elephants
Unreal - We don't need these distractions with the Ottoman war all but guaranteed. We need badly to build more cities.

At least we are still have no problems in the tech race.

Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Romeothemonk


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

If you place your towns right you can have a minor shortcut through the lakes. Might be worth doing (settle E,N,N of the capitol and then another city to get out of the lake to the east. It also gives you a safe haven for boats (the lakes) that you can retreat to.

Unreal - We don't need these distractions with the Ottoman war all but guaranteed. We need badly to build more cities.

Yeah. vikings shouldn't be a problem, they were just isolated raiders, I doubt we'll see that much more of them soon. More cities we're desperate for, with hindsight I should have built a clan before the forge in Haraiki, I wasn't expecting Dynasticism anywhere near that quickly. Hopefully we can get elephant riders before the ottoman war starts.

1700 BC (2)
(I) The Koreans start the Oracle, The Souix start the Sphinx.

1675 BC (3)
(I)The Aztecs start building the Oracle, the Vikings the Sphinx.

1650 BC (4)
The Vikings will talk, but they want 140g for peace, we will wait one more turn. The Souix have bronzeworking and we can buy it, but there are no deals to offset it. I will wait.
(I)We become a Monarchy.

1625 BC (5)
Vikings haven't dropped the price.

1600 BC (6)
With settlers coming due, I don't want to have to risk things. I take peace with the Vikings but the price went up to 160g.
(I) Harakaiki Asian Pinoeer->Tribal Guard.

1550 BC (8)
Joan get Math for 165g. We buy Bronze Wroking for 410g and then sell it to the Vikings and Ottomans for 230g.
(I)The French demand Naval Warfare and I refuse. They declare.

1525 BC (9)
Pukapuka is founded to get the incense.

1500 BC (10)
We have a Pinoeer coming due next turn, should grab the gems.

The French demand Naval Warfare and I refuse. They declare. I don't understand why when you consider how paper thin our military is. IMO we should cave at until the expansion phase is over. More troops could cost us a city site.


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor
Microbe (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

They had no troops anywhere near us and giving up a tech seemed too much. I didn't think it would hurt our efforts.

They had no troops anywhere near us and giving up a tech seemed too much. I didn't think it would hurt our efforts.

Well the big question when the troops land is how much to do pay for peace?

I tend to be a proponent of early warfare, which you don't like. I think one of the biggest reasons that a lot of the SGs get into trouble is that they don't go to war early on and therefore they have nice cities but the AI has had time to go faster. The happy medium is best. Build and war in equal measure.

Build and war in equal measure.
It isn't even a question of building for war. We have no transport capacity to get to another landmass. IMO the war will be the Ottomans, and anything that distracts us from them is wasteful.

I like the war happiness. Without the AI being able to sign MAs in RaR, we are pretty safe. We may pay a bit to them when they come and we can't handle, but the benefit of war happiness should win out.

We have a Pinoeer coming due next turn, should grab the gems.


I am at turn 0 and here is some major weed:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-1500BC.jpg

Pioneers cost 3 pop!!!

preturn: switch Tikei to Hardy Pioneer due in 8 turns. Don't know how many turns we have wasted.

1475BC: We meet America and they are backward.

Build embassy with Aztecs. Size 3, one lux, 4spt building Oracle in 32 turns. He knows Viking.

America and Sioux are at war and America is losing!

1400BC: Construction and Trade come in.

I buy Construction from Sioux for 202g. Construction gets Trade from Aztecs. Trade to Sioux for 102g. Sioux gets Civil Engineering.

1375BC: I set capital to granary.

IBT Korea starts Sphinx.

1350BC: establish embassy with Korea. Size 4, 3spt building Oracle in 40 turns. 1 lux.

Vikings: size 7! 6spt building Stonehenge in 11 turns. Elephant and horses. 2 lux.

Philosphy next turn and we could take Classic Education and trade.

We can mine now. One worker should mine the plain at our capital.

Got it. Playing before vacation.

IHT: Man we are small.
Turn 1: Get Philo. get classical ed. Start the trading. Philo gets us civil engineering and 50 gold from the Sioux. Since Osman doesn't know anyone to know better, he gives us aristocracy, 5gpt, and 6 gold. Snag code of Laws, and get gold and gpt from nearly everyone. We are still the Tech leaders. Found Manahi on the hills.
Turn 2: Exploring.
Turn 3: Break our classical ed monopoly before it gets demanded away. Snag riding and seafaring and lots of gold. LK shouldn't fret, the French war is killing the french Econ. America is teching faster.
Turn 4: Aztecs get a gift of riding and a spot on my hitlist.
Turn 5: Sending new settler to the hill by the near horses.
Turn 6: Sioux extort 56 gold. Republic is out there now.
Turn 7: Snag the Republic from Osman for classical ed and seafaring. I am using workers to try and get commerce and shields in Haraiki.
Turn 8: How nice, the Ottos built Stonehenge for us.
Turn 9: Not much. Korea extorts 55 gold.
Turn 10: Now Demo has popped. We get Poetry in 3 turns.
Not much to say or do here guys. Expand like mad. Didn't see a single french unit on my set.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk96.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-1000BC.SAV

Get Philo. get classical ed. Start the trading. Philo gets us civil engineering and 50 gold from the Sioux. Since Osman doesn't know anyone to know better, he gives us aristocracy, 5gpt, and 6 gold. Snag code of Laws,
Just a hint: You can use The Big Picture after learning Philo to enter F4, and trade Philo around; you should have been able to get CoL, and this would have allowed you to take Demo as free tech.
Demo is worth a lot for trading; and, ClassEd is something the AI is reluctant to research, so you have a good chance to get that one first anyway.

But maybe you knew this already, and had a good reason for your choice :).

I was just following orders Doc. I really don't normally go for Demo myself, so I really never try and get it. I know of the trick, but wasn't really thinking of using it here.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-750BC.zip

1000 BC
I hate phony wars and give France Seafaring for peace and $6.

This is turning out to be very ugly. Our land grab is going very poorly. We share a continent with a single civ and have cities with defense one units. This is NOT the game for a farmer's gambit. I can't even swap the capitol off of the settler without throwing away shields.


975 BC
(IT) I gladly give the Ottomans $53 to go away.


950 BC
Hiva is formed to claim horses.


925 BC
Poetry and $40 go to the Sioux for Democracy.
Poetry goes to the Vikings for Elephant Training and $40.
Poetry and $70 go to the Ottomans for Polytheism.
I sell Poetry to Korea for $75.
(IT) The Aztecs complete the Hanging Gardens.


875 BC
The last 2 settlers worth build have completed, and I order up a revolt.


825 BC
Fata Huka is formed.


775 BC
The France completed the Mausoleum of Mausollos.


750 BC
Ua Pou and Tonga are formed.

I cash rush the monument in Hiva. We need to build up culture in the overlap cities.

==========================


Summary:
We must go 100% on production boasting and ramping up for war with the Ottomans. IMO this game will be lost if we don't prepare for war ASAP.

We don't want cities behind the Ottomans lines. IMO the expansion phase is over.

Please use cash heavily to rush buildings. A harbor lets Ua Pou grow more. We need the culture from moments, and we need production boasters. Of course, we also badly need troops.


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

This is the final empire until the first Ottoman war.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-663.jpg

Got it. 10chars.

I am at turn 0 and here is some major weed:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-1500BC.jpg

Pioneers cost 3 pop!!!
My bad! Fortunately, I had MMed it to complete on your turn so there was no waste yet. Still adjusting to RaRs differences and swapping back and forth.

lurker comment: another LK game suffering in the early game from too-sparse city placement - consider how many low corruption tiles are unworked...

lurker comment: another LK game suffering in the early game from too-sparse city placement - consider how many low corruption tiles are unworked...

Bezhukov, I've read such comments from you twice. Please refrain from using such words when you comment on other's games. It's just a play style issue. This is not a training game and we all know the basics.

This isn't about the basics. It's not an obvious thing, but its obviously causing a great deal of consternation. I enjoy learning how to improve my game from the guidance of folks like T_McC, LK (he's taught me a lot), and Doc. I watch the advanced players play and see tighter cities and better tile utilization, just pointing that difference out.

If you don't want to engage in the conversation, your choice, others may feel differently. I wouldn't be surprised if LK backed you up here - while considering some different city placements in future games. :)

Of course, your biggest problem here is the same we had on Bed3 - non-AGR civ with lack of food bonuses, so city placement is of secondary concern.

I watch the advanced players play and see tighter cities and better tile utilization

Words like "another LK game suffering", "advanced players use tighter cities" are not only incorrect, but quite offensive in my opinion. You obviously have not read enough games that Lee, myself and others played. We do use tighter builds a lot, based on different scenarios.

If you want to start a conversation, consider starting it with a less tutoring tone and you'll be more welcomed.

"Advanced" means Sir Pleb, Bamspeedy, T_McC, folks on the HoF. I know they're advanced compared to me, YMMV. I try to learn from them so I don't continue to struggle with the same things over and over. In many aspects of the game, I consider LK advanced compared to me.

I've been reading the LK series for about 20 games now, and the pattern is clear. Early game struggle with some interesting late comebacks. Some of this is difficult variants, but it's become clear that some is leaving low-corruption tiles unworked. That's not just my opinion, it's what I see looking at the HoF games. You are free to ignore this observation or consider some adjustments. One thing about LK, he's not afraid to tell you what he thinks - I'm following his example.

Not trying to attack you Bez, but not all of LK's games are early game fallbacks and late game riseups. I can think of one AW game (LK74-ish) as the Aztecs where they had given a couple civs the early boot. While in my opinion LK uses a looser build than some others (yet still allowing for around 12 - 18 tiles per city, which is a good amount, since most Deity level games last at least to Sanitation), if it works out well, which it almost always does, it's fine. Every Deity game you will fall behind at least slightly in the early game, so grabbing as much land as you can is important, and a looser build helps achieve that.

RaR is a bit different, but in all the regular games I've seen LK run, I've never seen an unused tile not accessible by any city. And the late game is when a majority of comebacks usually are made, when you can get an upperhand on the AI.

PS: HoF games can have less opponents, and have settler factories almost every game, so they aren't the *greatest* for learning, nonetheless, still good to look at. Just my comments ... someday I'll play in this series.

lurker's comment:

guys, isn't the beauty of SG's that everyone of us has a different style?
I consider LK as one of the players, who plays commited and puts his heart into the turns. His style might be different from others, that's good. If we all would play the same way here or force each other to do so, well, we might as well play alone.
We obviously decided to play SG's and thus, have to accept that everyone has a somewhat diferent style. I can see that in all the games I am involved in.
What is the downside of SG's? That some poeple try to lecture others, though the player made clear the choices and reasons of the turnsets.
Not accetable in my mind is also a rushed style of play, that defeats the purpose as well. In such a case, LK would not mind to speak his mind, which is good.
We all want to learn a thing or two, and above all, have a good laugh and fun playing here, it's a game. So, folks, relax and enjoy the game and have a laugh, would you?

Thanks for the input, GA. I seem to have a way of rubbing Microbe the wrong way, but what's to be done? :rolleyes: I enjoy discussing different strategies, and if it comes across as lecturing, one has only to look at my own SG performances to see I'm in no place to lecture. :lol: My favorite thing about LK's style is how it is constantly evolving to adapt to new situations. Hope mine can too. My play style before finding SG's can be found in the current Gnomes of Zurich thread, so its been fun learning the more violent side of Civ. :hammer:

Not sure how best to express it, but I've found that RandR takes a different early game (pre-irrigation) approach than unmodded, since unless they are working food bonus tiles or shield-less grassland, cities grow more slowly the larger they get. The only way around this is the free city square that requires no food, so tight builds with a larger number of cities seems to work better.

AW games require tight builds for other reasons, but if my theory is correct, it is no surprise that the LK series has had more success (or faster success - nobody circles the wagons like LK) in these sorts of games.

"Advanced" means Sir Pleb, Bamspeedy, T_McC, folks on the HoF. I know they're advanced compared to me, YMMV. I try to learn from them so I don't continue to struggle with the same things over and over. In many aspects of the game, I consider LK advanced compared to me.

I've been reading the LK series for about 20 games now, and the pattern is clear. Early game struggle with some interesting late comebacks. Some of this is difficult variants, but it's become clear that some is leaving low-corruption tiles unworked. That's not just my opinion, it's what I see looking at the HoF games. You are free to ignore this observation or consider some adjustments. One thing about LK, he's not afraid to tell you what he thinks - I'm following his example.We go with tight city build in AWE games and looser builds in the others. This is a preference that LK has and as players in his games we go with his desires. While I agree that tighter builds make for more tiles used earlier it also cramps the cities later on. While my hat is off to those that are in the HoF (to be honest I have never even looked at the games), I don't like palying that style. Heck if I want to win every game hands down I would just go ICS and roll over the AI in the early ages. If you don't think it can be done lokk back a couple of games in Arathorn's games where they tool it to the AI in an OCC and the game was over early. I don't play the GOTM or the Ladder games because I don't like playing the style of game that they play and you have to play to compete. Just as we restrict ourselves to certainn moves (No RoP rape and other exploits) we also put other restriction on our playstyle. It is what makes the games more interesting and the idea isn't to have perfect games in every way. It is to have fun and enjoy the gaem together, not compete.

750BC: All good, but we're a long way behind on techs. My 2 cents on our city placement: We've got some tiles near Haraiki that aren't in any city radius, I'll be putting a city there. Also, how come Fata Huka wasn't 1 tile S? Manihi won't be able to work that square without irrigating hills, and Fata Huka is struggling for food, and would go much better built on a hill with access to a grassland, rather than built on the grassland.

730: Aztecs build The Oracle
I buy Barding & Currency off Korea for 430 gold, then sell them to the Aztecs for Iron Working, Monotheism & 5 gold.
I can only see 1 Iron on our island, on tundra on the N coast. the Ottomans don't have it yet, but probably will soon.
Most AIs are still ahead on tech with Military Tradition & Monasticism

710: zzz

690: France builds Great Lighthouse

670: Upgrade a Tribal Guard

650: zzz

630: Research Drama ---> Literature
Trade Drama around, get Lateen Sail, Military Training, Monasticism & 250 gold

610: Ottomans build Slave trade in Istanbul

590: America extort Code of Laws, they're well behind on tech so I cave.
Ottomans build Great Wall in Izmit :eek: , at least we know which city is going first in the ottoman war
Ahe founded

570, 550: zzz

Thanks for clueing me in, Meldor. I hadn't intended for this to be a "my play style is better than yours" thing, but it seems doomed to be read that way. LK has seemed frustrated with the situations he's been in and I was attempting to suggest an alternative. I don't do ICS either, but I'll have some "unit cities" that don't build infra and that are disbanded in the late game when their tiles are needed by the cities that do build infra. This alleviates somewhat the "infra vs. units" dilemma that has been popping up a lot in LK games, and works especially well in RandR, where there is so much variation in optimal city sizes between early and late game.

I will comment in general on the whole conversion around the Bezhukov comments. IMO Bezhukov has cross the bounds of lurking. Lurkers should be making comments to answer specific questions, not trying to argue for a particular game play style. There is still a large learning curve for the whole team in RaR. The journey is more fun without outside interference.



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-664.jpg
We've got some tiles near Haraiki that aren't in any city radius, I'll be putting a city there.
I am baffled by this comment. What are the new tiles gained? I can only find green dot for a new potential tile gained.
Tile A is really needed by Manihi. Tile B is needed to give Haraiki maximum shields.

Ahe is now our second best city from a rank corruption standpoint. Why do we want our second best corruption city to be a city with almost no shields? I am very tempted to abandon this city right now. It won't last the game as hit has far too much overlap with other cities.

Also, how come Fata Huka wasn't 1 tile S? ... Fata Huka is struggling for food .
I saw two grassland tiles once the borders expanded. That is why I had a monument started and wanted it cash rushed. I was looking at the full 21. We can even clear the forest at some point for a third grassland tile. IMO that is much better long term then one grassland tile.


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Well, that's twice now I've crossed an LK line :nono:, and I don't relish finding out what happens upon the third strike. :spank:

Henceforth, I'll reserve my comments for games in which I am actually playing. :blush: Wish you the best on this one! :wavey:

I am baffled by this comment. What are the new tiles gained? I can only find green dot for a new potential tile gained.
Tile A is really needed by Manihi. Tile B is needed to give Haraiki maximum shields.

Ahe is now our second best city from a rank corruption standpoint. Why do we want our second best corruption city to be a city with almost no shields? I am very tempted to abandon this city right now. It won't last the game as hit has far too much overlap with other cities.

Not talking about tile A or B. It picks up the tile the city is on, and 1 sea tile as well. Manihi can't generate enough food to work all those hills & mountains, and Haraiki will generate a massive amount of food once we have irrigation and won't need to work either the corn or the square 1 NE of the corn. That means Ahe will be approx size 6 or 7 with more base shields than Haraiki without stopping Haraiki from growing, and without using tiles that Manihi could. That won't change until we can plant forest. We've got the same problem to the N of Haraiki, with a grass and a sea that can't be worked by any city. I can't understand leaving tiles in our core unable to be worked.

Done a little bit of maths now, when we have irrigation, Manihi will have 27 food from 6 water (18), 1 grass (4), 2 hills (2) and the city square (3). That will leave it static at size 9, with 11 base shields. I think corn is +2 food, which will give Ahe approx 15 (2 hills, 1 mountain & 2 in city square) base shields at size 6, and we'll still have hill tiles & a gems tile unworked. I expect Ahe & Tikei to become our highest production cities. Hopefully that clears the bafflement, even if you disagree with the logic.

.
I saw two grassland tiles once the borders expanded. That is why I had a monument started and wanted it cash rushed. I was looking at the full 21. We can even clear the forest at some point for a third grassland tile. IMO that is much better long term then one grassland tile.

Fair enough. I still disagree, for the same logic as above. Fata Huka 1 SW and another city 1N of the forest would cause less wastage & be more efficient than the current placement IMO.

Sounds like I need to get back to detailed dot mapping so that the team agrees on city sites. The trouble is our start area SUCKED for additional cities.


@Sanabas - Sounds like the problem is we have very different city placement style. I hate building cities that can't get much above size 6 or 7. I want to get at least 12 tiles in play long-term.

As for the Ahe city - I will have to agree to disagree.


@Team - don't forget Elephant riders can lay roads. Please put them to work until we are close to the Ottoman war.

The trouble is our start area SUCKED for additional cities.

Yeah, I think Haraiki needed to be 2 NE of its current spot, to get both food and shields. The hills area to the NE doesn't have good spots for cities, even extra long term with both railroad & fisheries Manihi can only reach size 10 without irrigating hills.

@Sanabas - Sounds like the problem is we have very different city placement style. I hate building cities that can't get much above size 6 or 7. I want to get at least 12 tiles in play long-term.

As for the Ahe city - I will have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, I think we do. I don't like cities that can't get beyond 7 long term, but I really hate having wasted tiles in the core long term.

Ditto about the elephant riders, they're more efficient than workers/peasants too, they complete grassland road in 1 turn.

I see it and it is in the queue

Meldor is still within 48 hours. However, I don't want the game lost on page 2.

I just got an email from Meldor that he has the flu and needs to skip in his current games.

Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor
Microbe (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Got it .

preturn: why are we researching Literature? We are not going to build GL and we can't trade for Dark Ages. We don't even know how backward we are.

Barding+Philosophy to France for two luxes.

Establish embassy with America by 35g. How pathetic it is: size-1 which is a clown.

530BC: Two AIs know Lit. Great. I buy with 48g. Sell to Sioux for Horse Breeding+12g.

Dark Age in 4 turns.

Our boat spots a tundra island with iron.

510BC: Sell Lit to get Mounted Archery from Ottomans.

470BC: Dark Age -> Theology in 7. Korea starts GL.

450BC: Lit could get us Invention from Aztecs. Unexpected. I up lux to 10 as capital grows and that's cheaper than buying lux!

410BC: Vikings complete Sun Tzu.

390BC: Sioux and America finally make peace.

350BC: AI has various techs now, and we are one turn to Theology which nobody has. Good choice.

I'm soly concentrated on elephants and rax. I'm building a pioneer in Ua Pou. We may send it to claim some oversea iron sources.

I'm soly concentrated on elephants and rax.

I agree 100%. With sharing this landmass with a single civ war is a must. It is just a question of who strikes first.

Our lack of buildings is really going to hurt, but what choice do we have?


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

I got it. or will have it when I get home today.
This is purely hypothetical at the moment, but if war breaks out on my turns, and a few cities are razed, is there a dotmap on where you would like our new cities planted?
If there are any MGL's do we want the Palace gardens, a spear army, a jumbo army or even the FP, if we have enough cities.
In Zav2, I really learned the power of a spear army to cover all the no defense offensive units we have.
If I pull an MGL, I guess I will stop and ask the team what to do at that point.

If I pull an MGL, I guess I will stop and ask the team what to do at that point.That sounds like a good plan.


This is purely hypothetical at the moment, but if war breaks out on my turns, and a few cities are razed, is there a dotmap on where you would like our new cities planted? No, but I would be surprised if we have the forces to do it at this time. We can deal with that when it comes.

I peeked at the game last night and have some questions and/or comments.
1) Our entire offensive force consists of 2 elephants, with 2 in production.
2) We have a border city defended by a ranger. Unfortunately this is not LotR, and rangers are not good. (0-1-2 2 hp's)
3) We are building 1 (4-1-3) 5 hp unit. Why this instead of a Jumbo? (4-1-2) 6 hp, can road. Both have the same upgrade path.
4) I can hit Izmit, with the great wall in 1 turn from our borders. I will wait until I have 4 elephants, and at least 1 spear, then attack.
5) Ottos are in full expansion mode and have light defenses.
6) I want to keep the Great Wall, will Raze other stuff.

It doesn't sound like we are at all ready for war. 4 elephants IMO is a just not enough for offensive punch. One bad RnG round and we are dead. Not when we have a joke of a border city with a ranger for defense. While I can't force you not to start the war, it sounds we are nowhere close to being ready.

IMO we need to continue to build up. If nothing else I want out UU ship near the Ottomans hoping for a kill and GA. A GA would justify the war.

I want to keep the Great Wall, will Raze other stuff.
I agree 100% here. We are really pop light and could use the free labor help. I think we would have a hard time keeping any of their cities.

IHT: Pretty much expressed my thoughts here.
Turn 1: Theology gets vassalage and naval spirit and 70 gold from the vikes. Vassalge, naval spirit and 75 gold snag us cotton and warrior code from the aztecs. Theology and 60 gold snags us milling from Korea. Crazy horse gives us 200 gold for theology. Start research to castle building. We are down stirrup and clocks, and could choose feudalism, fundamentalism, or castle.
Turn 2: Sci Method popped. Aztecs get the colossus. Build a 2nd outrigger, build a monument, start 2 forges.
Turn 3: Crap. Castle building popped.
Turn 4: Osman demands 36 gold. Say yes. That really was hard. It took 5 minutes to decide.
Turn 5: Trade castle building to aztecs for Spices and 4 gold from Aztecs. Start on Feudalism.
Turn 6: After seeing this,
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk96-1.jpg
I can only pull the trigger now. Declare war. RL an elephant and take out no hp's. Lose an elephant taking 1 hp from a TG. Kill a TG and get a slave. Cover elphants with a spear.
IBT: Scarriest IBT ever. Horse archer attacks Tonga witch only had a ranger defending because of moving spear to cover elephants. 2 hp 1 defense ranger kills a 3-1-3 horse archer with 3 hps. I didn't know that horse archers could go through forest in 1. Crazy horse gets 31 gold.
Turn 7: Get some units up, getting ready to withstand the storm of reg horse archers. I counted 6, 1 died and 1 redlined last turn on our spear.
Turn 8: This is looking bad. Kill 1 archer in the IBT, and lose 2 elephants on the IBT, as our spear had to redline first, exposing phants. To make matters worse, the otto's now have iron as I see a pike. Retreat a horse archer with a warrior. An outrigger dies to a galley. The RnG is really trying to punish me after that 1 gift.
IBT: Kill 2 horse archers, lose a RL spear and a reg warrior.
Turn 9: Get feudalism start crop rotation which is unknown currently.
IBT: Ragnar gets 24 gold. The RNG turns against us very badly. reg 3 hp horse archer kills fortified vet spear, reg 3 hp horse kills elephant, another kills a warrior, another kills the ranger and they capture tonga. Un believable.
Turn 10: Crop rotation pops, we lose our supplies of olive oil and coffee. This is just crappy, elephant redlines taking off 1 hp of a spear. WoW. Hiva rioted due to road route being cut.
The ottomans will not talk, and we will lose another town next turn.
I pull attacks like this in my solo games all the time and it never backs out like this. This was a total meltdown on RNG, plus a coupling of my offense first strategy with a somewhat risky attack.
Dang. I am really sorry that this really tanked. I did what I normally would, and this backfired badly.
The Tech picture was really bad.
I think a lack of dotmapping and a more coherent early strategy really makes us behind the 8-Ball. That and sharing a continent with a big power, the ottos started running away with techs and gold during my first 6 turns.
I honestly thought we could hit and run on the Otto's. We were over unit support, and doing nothing to increase our sciencs and falling further and further behind.
With knowing what would happen, I would still have attacked when I did. I think we got slightly hosed on our really low shield capitol. As a rule, I like 20 spt capitols with 2 production enhancers, something we lacked.
We can try and get peace ASAP, then go mad science and try and build up a science empire, and get up to artillary.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/lk96-2.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-150_BC.SAV

Looks like a worse situation than LK88. :eek: Maybe we should outsource ourselves to some other island. :lol:

It doesn't sound like we are at all ready for war. 4 elephants IMO is a just not enough for offensive punch. One bad RnG round and we are dead. Not when we have a joke of a border city with a ranger for defense. While I can't force you not to start the war, it sounds we are nowhere close to being ready.


With knowing what would happen, I would still have attacked when I did. I think we got slightly hosed on our really low shield capitol. As a rule, I like 20 spt capitols with 2 production enhancers, something we lacked.
We can try and get peace ASAP, then go mad science and try and build up a science empire, and get up to artillery.


Well I really wish you had listen to me in this case. I absolutely did NOT want the war when I read your description of our forces. This looks really bad because of impatience for war. If we lose this one, I feel this is the critical mistake why.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

I was doing some thinking on my turnset and came up with some ideas/thoughts.
1) Misidentification was huge on my part. I misindentified Spears as TG's. After playing so many games of RaR, I had never seen an Otto Spear vs. TG, excpet when I had tanks or something similar. Russians have euro spear, Romans have Scutio, American civs have Amerindian spears, etc. The Otto TG and spears look identical, and I didn't bother to check.
2) I saw a pike in the mountains, and that iznik was building offense. These signaled short window of oppurtunity. When coupled with #1, I thought the oppurtunity to lash out at 3 TG's was to good to ignore.
3) We could have built miltary till kingdom come and with our shield poor start, could not have even matched 1/3 of what the deity AI with the slave trade could do. I have never gotton better than a 3:1 kill ratio in early wars with the A.I.
4) I really dislike the Polynesians in RaR the more I think about it. If they have their own Island, they are great. With no cheap culture and no military, they really get hosed without a killer UU. When stuck on an Island with a runaway AI, a 1/1/5 boat really doesn't help. (I am really liking Japan as my fave civ.) The outrigger is only killer when you really need to contact someone.
5) This could be beating a dead horse, but with my growing RaR experience I think dotmapping is extremely important. I think that it is more important than in reg C3C.
6) I think this team is better suited to a civ like the Celts, or Greece. Agri/religious for the builders, or awesome D for the warmongers.
Live and Learn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-10BC.zip

150 BC
The game I received is absurd for unhappiness. We only have 7 miserable people in the capitol.

I have no clue why we are building a settler. I don't understand why our cities are configured for high growth when we desperately need units.

I upgrade 2 TG to spears.
(IT) A warrior kills our 1 HP elephants.
A 1 HP horse archer captures Pukapuka that I inherited EMPTY.
We lost 3 workers by the city. That is even worse then city lose.


130 BC
The Ottomans still won't talk. I have a feeling they would due the success they are having.

We suffer another jump in WW. I give France Mounted Archery and Invention for Coffer and Olive Oil. Despite that I have to up luxury tax and hire a clown in the capitol.


110 BC
(IT) Tikei is pillaged and disconnected from the empire. We can't build elephants any more. They city also riots.
Hiva starves due to excess specialists.


90 BC
Want to guess who still won't talk?
(IT) The best unit I can now build is the Stone Crossbow.
Hiva continues to starve.
The Aztecs complete Voyage of Discovery.


70 BC
(IT) We are on the verge of death, and now the RnG gives us a defensive leader. What a frelling waste.


50 BC
What is worse is the leader is trapped in Tikei, and I can't afford to stop the elephant rider being built.
(IT) Fata Huka is now a Ottoman City.


30 BC
Our entire treasury and GPT output won't get a peace treaty.
(IT) Manihi falls to the Ottomans. A lone horse archer beats a spear in a city on a hill. :(


There is no sense in continuing to play this.
The entire military is a handful of spearmen.

Well LK, Like I said I would have made that attack again had I the chance. I liked the chances of making the attack that I saw.
With a low shield, seafaring start, we should have emphasised commerce. As much as it pains me, war like we were forced into with only 1 civ on the island is a losing propsition everytime with less than 1/3 of the cities.
In my opinion the game was in trouble the moment that we decided to go for military over commerce. If we wanted military we should have built and planned defensively as they are much cheaper, than offensively.
In the short war I used absolutely everything that I could, which is why the city was empty. I left cities not so much on growth as commerce, as I was trying to keep us in a tech race. I didn't think that shaving a one turn off of a spear was worth 5 gpt.
I am thinking that RaR requires a whole lot more thought and early discussion than regular c3c, as there are many routes that get us to the same result.

You should not fight an AI mainland before you have substantial forces of Knights/Cavaliers, and substantial production to replenish casualties.
It may seem easy to capture some colonnies even on Sid, or to fight a gassed AI like Carthage in LK88 (and of course, it IS something completely different once you have Artillery).
But neither was it easy to deal with Greece in LK88, nor is it a good idea to fight without good preperation.
Main reason is that the AI on the higher levels can build everything up to Knights (70sp) pretty easy even in mediocre cities (Deity=Knights for 42sp). They do upgrade to Cuirs, but those 120/72sp are something much harder to come by.
And, I never understand that excitement about Jumbos. They're decent, since they can lay roads in peacetime, and the movement bonus can be helpful - but, the Crusader clones are better for fighting. Move 3 is clearly superior to 1 HP more.
Also, in all RaR games I've lurked, I never see a healty unit mix. Too many Jumbos, or Knights/Cavas without Horse Archers, no Archers/MaA/Arquebusiers, noone except me builds Explorers or Colonial Marines, and the slow defenders aren't properly sent out early enough.

That is something you really have to learn ;). Of course, we all win unmodded with 80% Cavs, a few Muskets and sufficient Ari. But, mostly because of the different movement boni and the lower defences, RaR works different. A Knight cannot hold on its own - but, if backed up with a Horse Archer, chances get way better.

Hmm, I used slow defenders, but they got eaten up faster than 1 defense units.
I like Jumbo's for the extra HP. I have found that a HP with ignore forest and jungle terrain to be more useful than 3 move. That wouold be personal preference though. The Roading just tips the favor, as I have a tendancy to not build enough workers, and jumbo's have a dual purpose in my mind.
With Cavalry I see no need for horse archers. They are 4-1-3 4 hp, with defensive bombard. Cavalry are 8-3-3 7 hp with defensive bombard. Cavaliers are 6-2-2 with 5 hp, no bombard.
I am coming around on colonial marines, but for the most part I find the window to use them to small without proper setup. Bez1 is perfect for marines. I do not like explorers or pillaging. I hate pillaging.
While Archers/MaA/Arques are nice, A slow moving stack versus a fast moving stack is not really a hard choice in my mind. Speed kills, and you must have speed. That was the first lesson I learned on CFC, and I am sticking to it almost religiously.
I am really liking building a spear/pike army with an early MGL, and using it as a walking cover.
I think the big difference is I have played ~20-30 RaR games, but over 150 c3c games. The ability to refine strategy comes with time and experience and we are all learning. I learned more from this one setback than I did from my first 3 RaR SG wins. I still favor really bold opening military moves, but now I am learning the appropriateness of military in different situations. We were in one of the few situations where military wouldn't help IMO.
I will post my thoughts on military when I am at the lab later today.

Warring properly requires 3 different Questions to be answered. 1. When. 2. How. 3)Where. (Whatfor gets lumped in here as well)
I break the game into 3 periods; BB (Before barracks), Mounted Warfare, Modern Warfare. There is a little bit of overlap between these era's but the definiton should be pretty clear.
I have modern warfare starting with Automatic Weapons.
First the BB age of war.
Before barracks, your capitol and your FP, if it is constructed, are the only 2 cities that can produce veteran units. This is important as an extra HP is vital to the way I war.
In the BB era, to go to war, I must have my capitol able to 1 turn offensive units, champs if militaristic, archers if not. In addition, I must have 1 town able to do 3 turn TG's or Spears that is not my offensive town. If I cannot do this I will not try to fight a BB war. I will focus on science and economy to get to the next age and get a local superiority. I want to have local superiority over anything I may face, so I want ~6-8 Offensive units and 2+ defensive units. Ballistae/cats are optional at this stage, unless dealing with either the Aztecs or the Iro. If either of these civs are in play, you need defensive bombard of cats or archers. In fact, I like to war against these 2 civs early, as I have noticed that they tend to run over other civs in the early game but I can trim them with judicious warring.
In the BB era Length and location of war are very important. In the BB Era there is almost always still some ungrabbed land and the AI seems to be in full expansion mode at the time. When the war starts, you can expect very few extra units lying around, unless they still have their free starting units. This will quickly change as the units are very cheap to build in this era, and almost every AI city can at least build 2 turn units, and every AI city can whip 1 turn units. I use warfare at this point to trim luxury cities, resource cities, or wonder building capitols. To take a Diety capitol in the BB Era you need ~10 vet champs/archers, along with some defensive units. The assualt works better if they are building a wonder at that time. In the BB Era, I like to take/raze 2-3 cities, then sign peace for tech or cities. I have found that oscillating warfare in the BB Era is very productive. In my mind the BB Era is officially over at the end of the first age, as the tenats of the strat still work till the advent of pikes. However at the end of the BB Era, the ER is introduced and this signals the beginning of the next era, the mounted era.

Horse Archers upgrade to Cavalry, that's not the unit I refer to. Cava=Cavaliers. HAs mix perfectly with Knights/Cavas. They're faster, and the defensive bombard means the AI will subtract one HP from their unit when calculating odds. And often enough that means they won't attack at all.
And I do not build Explorers for pillaging. I use them as cheap, move2 ATAR defenders...

In general: A move=2 unit is a fast unit for retreating etc.
But, a move=3 unit has a huge additional benefit: The AI can only "think" 2 tiles far ;).

The Mounted Era is more characterized by a number than a unit. The number is 4. That is the max defense that will be seen in the mounted era. Pikes, Halbadiers, line infantry etc, all have 4 defense. This only changes when rifles appear on the scene which is very late in the age. On the other hand, there is a wide range of offensive units; Jumbo's (4-1-2) Crusaders (4-1-3), Knights (5-2-2) Cavaliers (6-2-2) Imp Guards (5-2-2 Blitz) Hussars, (7-1-3) Horse archers (4-1-3) cavalry (8-3-3) and others that I know I am forgetting. In this age before I will even gear up to go to war I need two things, knowledge of local superiority, and 2 towns that can make vet offensive units in less than or equal to 4 turns. Without that, building offense at this point is throwing away shields that should be in your economy. I would build cheap defenders and walls and let the AI Suicide their shields away, while you tech like mad to the next age and the gamebreaker of artillary.
The local superiority can be had by having 2X the hitpoints of the opponent with equal attack to defense values, i.e. an elite jumbo vs reg pike, or by having a higher attack value than defense value. Using Jumbos or Crusaders to assualt a city with pikes is suicide, they should be used for counters against low defense units. I like using jumbos to take out spears and TG's in cities, as they are very good at that and generate a large number of slaves in the process.
Whenever I can, I build jumbo's as I always underbuild my worker force. Jumbo's can road, clear forest, and seem to generate a slave on every third attack. I leave Jumbo's as they are until well into the modern age. Personal Preference only here.
As DocT pointed out, horse archers and crusaders are move 3, and horse archers have defensive bombard. I rarely use them however, as for the same shields I can build Jumbo's which have an extra hp. The defensive bombard to the horse archers is very nice, and should be considered to have 1 or 2 in your fast stacks.
Once 6 attack units come about, they are the primary offensive weapons of the age, as they should beat a defense 4 unit 1 on 1. Of course having a stack of 6 attack fast movers is important, and I like to have 10+ before beginning a campaign. They must have defensive support as they have almost no natural defense. I like to take a border city and cover the new city/stack with 2 to 3 pikes. The AI will then counterattack driving almost all of their fast movers at you, allowing you to pick them off with older units like jumbos and Crusaders. I like to attack, gas an opponent quickly, take 3-4 cities, sign peace and oscillate with a different neighbor. The AI will be able to outproduce you at this point, so unless you have more cities than them, do not use extended wars.
I like to use the McArthur strategy of hit them where they ain't and ravage a key city early, then play defense and eat their shields up. This works especially well if the AI is fighting another AI at the same time, as their fast movers should be 4-5 turns away.
Colonial Marines can be very useful in this era as well. A ship with 5-6 of these bad boys can raze a key enemy coastal city. However the casaulty rate of Marines is high, and I use them in very specific instances.
Keeping a stack of Mobile offense or if you are teching like crazy, Mobile defense is very important in this age as the AI will toss lots of expensive fast moving units at you. You kill the units and retreated to your well fortified towns, generating slaves and wasting AI Shields.
Knowing when to fight in this era is the most important. If you are committed to fight, try and to the best that you can, but Defense is more important than offense as the modern era fits the humans strenghts the best.

The modern era has 2 game breaking units. Artillary and Armor are both game breakers. Semi-effective use of either one allows for complete domination even against much larger empires on Diety. (See LK-88 or LK-94 for proof).
On Diety once MkIv's roll around, I calculate that the AI has ~1 extra attacking unit for every city they own, and defense should be planned accordingly. You should only begin a war in this era if you have artillary equal to the estimated number of spare attackers. A spy can really help in this decision.
In the Modern Era, I never strike first!! I let the Enemy come to me, chew up their offense then contend with what they build. This works well when there is a chokepoint that can be barricaded or a Salient City that you know will be attacked. Let the enemy attack towards you, and then bombard all of his high offense units with your artillary and bombers. Occupy the high ground if at all possible, as the extra defensive bonus to you is very useful, and hard to overcome if the AI gets it. If the AI advances 10 MkIV's and 30 Marines and 20 machine gunners, the MKIV's are your target unless the Marines can attack a city the next turn. I would use all availible arty on the MKIV's and try and destroy them utterly, then worry about the slow movers next turn.
Armor is game breaker due to it's high Offense, Defense and 3 move. Armor is the first unit that doesn't need defensive cover on the attack. When MkIV's become availible, I never build foot units again unless I need paratroops or marines. I use MkIV's then Armor for offense defense and special teams. Armor only needs artillary support attacking other armors fortified in a town. Then the Heavy artillary really shines as the 3 range bombard to move allows them to fully support their tank buddies.
In the modern age the human should always beat the AI, the trick is having enough artillary and preplanning to do so. At this point the Human should have built the Military Academy, and have several armies. I like to use a full strength army to cover the main artillary stack, then use armies as the primary city capture units, and have non army units clean up the AI units.

Hopefully this helps explain how I think on war and how I make the decisions that I do. It is too late for this game, but not for the future.

lurker comment: Well, I for one just wait for Eurocopter Tiger armies.

;)

The coolest looking unit in civ. :thumbsup:

"2 towns that can make vet offensive units in less than or equal to 4 turns. Without that, building offense at this point is throwing away shields that should be in your economy. I would build cheap defenders and walls and let the AI Suicide their shields away, while you tech like mad to the next age and the gamebreaker of artillary."

Unless one is a mil civ, defense is king until production is boosted (this paradoxically requires irrigation, as this allows sufficient high-shield tiles to be worked).

Hope these comments are of a sufficiently general nature to avoid offense. :)

Well this game had the "honor" of putting the LK series in double digit losses. :cry:

LOSS - 10 = LK44, LK58, LK74, LK78, LK79, LK80, LK83, LK89, LK92, LK96

ONLY 10?

I've had 13 losses out of 55 games I played.