Parameters:
Patch: 1.22 C3C
Level: Demigod
Variant: Always War
Civilization: TBD
Water: 70%
Map Type: Continents
Size:Standard
Age: TBD
Temperature: TBD
Climate: TBD
Barbarians: TBD
Rivals: Random
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: All are enabled.
Culturally linked starts: OFF
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On
Requirement to play: At least one win in an AWE game.

I want a decent start for this to give us a better chance to win the game. So this is my proposal. Each player has the opportunity to pick their favorite AW civ and play until 2150BC (40 turns). We then discuss/vote on which one we want to play.

1) You can try multiple times for a good start if you want. Only post one game per player however.
2) I am going to put a limit of no more than 2 for the total of Cattle + Wheat + Game within the capitol radius (no 7 cow starts).
3) It must be a random map. Any parameter above that is TBD can be decided by the player that is starting. The Random AI Civs, Continents, and 70% water are all fixed.
4) It isn't a requirement that you play a start. If noone else wants to play one then I will start two for us to choose from. Otherwise, I will also post one start along with all other players who want to try.

We got a very strong start with a settler at 3500 BC from a hut. We are playing the Aztecs. Here is a picture after 40 turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_BC2150.JPG

--------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to try playing with the following restriction on pillaging:

Pillaging Restriction: Basically no pillaging by armies is allowed farther than 5 squares from our border. Land units cannot bypass a city without destroying it first. Sea units can go anywhere and drop off land units on any coast. The land units must then destroy the coastal cities before passing them either inland or along the coast (though they can bypass the coastal city by getting back on the boat). The idea here is to lessen the AI weakness of ignoring armies completely and allowing the human massive pillaging freedom. If the AI didn't have this weakness, you could pillage coastal resources by using boats, but inland resources would require fighting your way there.

If the enemy builds cities between a stack and our front lines, the stack can bypass the new city to head home or head deeper into enemy territory provided that they don't bypass any cities without capturing/razing).

Always War Rules:
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no turn based trade (such as GPT) allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count.

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We however cannot then disband the city just founded city on the same turn. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves.

Optionally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of the first round trading. It never really helps much and seems a bit artificial to be able to trade the first round. We can dicuss this more or play the more standard rules.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 48 to play. If you need a one or two day extension, then mention this before the 48 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 96 hours total, switch places or ask for a skip. A player plays 10 turns normally, but can choose to play 5 instead if their time is limited or when the turns get longer during the latter part of the game.


Roster:

Greebley
TheRat
Barbslinger
Bezhukov
Handy900
Bed_head7

ok, checking in as well, 2 AWDG at the same time :eek:. will be able to handle though, semester break is here soon, but first need to mark some exam papers. at least I am not the one to sweat over the exam :lol:

Checking in. :D

Can't recall ever playing Greece. Two traits that will last all game long, nice AW UU, but a way too early GA

I didn't go looking for trouble...

Turn 0
Move Alex and Worker
France, Babylon, Spain, Inca, Aztec, Zulu, Hittites.

Turn 2
Found Athens in a food 7 shield rich environment with wines.
Start a mine
Masonry @ Max
Warrior

3600BC
Pop hut for gold and a map, which reveals 2 cows we can work from a river city after expansion.

3500BC
See a light blue border 5 tiles from Athens – to the south. I was hoping we were the furthest south from looking at the mini map.

3350
See a Spanish warrior, so we declare on Spain, and we see ANOTHER border to the south.

2950
8 warriors attack, GA begins
Two regulars Hops promote to veteran
Worker irrigates FP since it is the only safe place to work.

2850
A healed vet hop in a city on a hill dies to a warrior, Athens riots.
Only 2 of the 8 warriors remain.
Masonry – WC

2670
Walls – barracks

2950
French settle 3 tiles from Athens but do not appear on F4.

2390
Barracks & walls are now in.

2230
WC – math

2190
Pop hut, get settler, see ivory, and declare on France
2150
Settler from hut is under 2 hops next to the mountain on the FP.
1 city with walls & barracks, 6 Hops, 1 settler, 1 worker. Masonry, WC, BW, Alpha

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ALEX.JPG

Checking in. Will think about civ, maybe post start later tonight.

Wow! That was early. It is not as tough as Sid though, but significantly HARD. Let's do this. I am flying to Ankara, turkey on Saturday but I feel they have wireless. I'll be in. By the way, I have 4 days of my own time that I will spend in Constantinople. Check out the Hippodrome and other stuff. Hoping to talk to a museum guru, get her drunk, and learn ancient secrets. :laughing at the possibility:. Looking forward to the trip though.

This game will be tougher.

will try my luck later with 40 turns, but handy's turns looks great IMHO, and mighty challenging

By the way, I have 4 days of my own time that I will spend in Constantinople :lol: too much of C3C, it's not called that way anymore though. good luck on your other intentions, but beware, you might have to stay there for good after such an adventure :lol: :lol: :lol:

ok here is my take

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4_2150BC.SAV)

going with Barbs sedentary at this level
70% continents, the rest random, we are Sumerians

1.4000BC
opponents are Maya, Romans, Ottoman, Indians, Celts, Hittites and Arabs
settler goes east after worker went NE

2.3950BC
Ur founded, go for IW

turn 19 pop 2 huts which are in the way and get barbs, but defeat them all without loss
turn 25 we get 25g from another hut
turn 26 found Sumer on top of furs
turn 40: last barb was beaten, IW in 2
we have 55g, 2 cities, 4 EW (1 elite) 2 workers and 2 lux (incense and furs)
no contacts whatsoever yet

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr42150.jpg

we are Sumerians My favorite civ, but I was pretty sure someone esle would use them also, so I tried Greece. My start has lots of food, but also lots of AI. Greece may be doomed to a 360 degree front. If we can sting them early we might win, if not we'll know we are doomed early. :lol:

Since we have hops, we can send them over to the AI to pillage a little (withing the restrcitions) and and induce them to whip their cities and thus slow their production. Similar to Greebley's excellent early assault in the HNDY05 AWS victory.

Sumeria looks safely down in a corner based on the mini map, so it will be a one front war for those guys. Also 2 lux is very nice, and there has to be iron in those mountains.

Contact with 2 civs so early would be a hard game. We could potentially take it somewhere though. The Sumerian game looks a reasonable start.

I will get my own start up today or tomorrow. If we get the starts in by Thursday night, we can do the voting on Friday and start.

I hope that will work out with your trip Barbslinger.

will try my luck later with 40 turns, but handy's turns looks great IMHO, and mighty challenging

:lol: too much of C3C, it's not called that way anymore though. good luck on your other intentions, but beware, you might have to stay there for good after such an adventure :lol: :lol: :lol: I onnly said Constantinople due to CIVIII.
I am going to train the Turkish engineers on my companies software. I will be in Ankara for 4 days then I have 4 days free. I am thinking Istanbull(****e it is Constantinople) and perhaps Athens for more world history. I will be at a company called TUSAS. Check it. On top of that, I'll be there drinking, wish me luck that it it will not be a Midnight Express monent. BTW, nice smilies.

will not be a Midnight Express monent :eek: yeah watch out :lol: great movie btw

Is there still a roster spot open?

Yes there is. You are in.

[Edit: If you can try a start tonight (and want to) go ahead. Tonight I hope to do mine. Then tomorrow we can start deciding which one (always hard, there is usually more than one I want to play).

I have never tried the Aztecs in AW nor tried a Jaguar rush. I decided to try them. The first attempt had too early contact (3500BC). They were right next to us and got to us before we had Bronze working. Their unit overran me and it was a loss.

This is my second attempt (I rejected several starts that I didn't attempt).

4000 BC: Settle in place. Start Barracks.
3500 BC: Border expands and we get a Settler!!!
3450 BC: Complete Barracks. Found Fields of Wheat.
2710 BC: Meet both Russia and Persia on the SAME TURN. Thats a first.
2390 BC: Our Jaguar does some pillaging of Persian lands.
2310 BC: Russian Warriors attack our Capitol. We get an Elite Spear. Our Jaguar attacks a Warrior and is also Elite.
2270 BC: We are pillaged (a mine)
2230 BC: Attack a Warrior with a Jaguar, and retreat. Fortify as I cannot retreat.
2190 BC: The 2 hp warrior attacks our Jaguar and wins. 2 more Warrior attack our Capitol
2150 BC:

Notes:
Iron Working in 2 turns.

Tried to rush out and find an enemy. Unfortunately, I did not find the closer one and met both.

It is very unlikely anyone else will have 13 pop points as with this game. Settler in 3500BC at demigod. Yow! We are about to build the settler for our 4th town.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_BC2150.JPG

If any of the final 3 players have a any desire to try a game then go for it. If you need one more day (Friday night) then I think delaying one day is fine. Tell us and we will do so.

@Greebley , a great set of turns really

I played a few through 40 turns, but none are really worth considering so I won't bother posting them.

Food and water for the Aztecs. :goodjob:

I've never played them either. I'm easy, so we can play any of these starts and it's okay by me. Aztec lands look great.

I'd be happy with the Aztecs too. It is one of the best AW starts I have ever gotten. It will be interesting to see if we have iron in 2 turns.

It won't be a push over with us knowing 2 civs already. But I slowed Persia a bit. If we can slow Russia and maybe raze some cities we would have a ver good chance.

An early army would really rock. With 4 towns so early, it could be really strong. Especially if we can make a sword army before 1500 BC.

ok, Greebley, what's the Roster like then?
oh, I saw Handy is up

Checking in - my plans are fluid, but we are supposed to head to Alabama later this morning and return Saturday.

Can you move me to the bottom of the order - or just skip me? Not enough time to play.

If everyone else is happy with the aztecs then we can play. Assuming this is the case:

Greebley
Bed_head7 - Up
Barbslinger - On Deck
ThERat
Bezhukov
Handy900

Bed head, I would give some ppl a bit more time to comment. Does anyone want us to try one of the other two starts instead? Speak now.

Bedhead, If we do play the Aztecs, note that the small stack outside of town was more exploratory than an attack (it was following a spear). I would wait to see if we have iron. If we do, then start assembling a force to take out some Russian towns before they grow.

One trick we can do is have a spear stay in mountains near a town. It keeps the workers in town and not working.

Actually, I am in about the same situation as handy, so it would probably be best to move me back a couple spots or skip, as I cannot play until Sunday.

Greebley
TheRat - Up
Barbslinger - On Deck
Bezhukov
Handy900
Bed_head7

Ok, I rearranged the order. I alternated between people who are known to have played more AW than is good for them (Handy, Barbslinger and I all have 10+ games) with those that may have played a bit less AW.

TheRat, Can you take it today or tomorrow?

I am leaving tomorrow AM and not landing until Sunday afternoon in Ankara. I can play then if the hotel has internet. There is probably internet cafes to download and/or post though. I'll post when I find access.

Ok Barbslinger. Contact us when you can.

I am going to keep the above schedule. We can swap Barbslinger as needed.

ok, will be able to take it

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1750BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
we can actually reduce science to 50% still get IW in 2

IT Russian settler pair comes into view

1.2110BC
send archer towards the pair, jag and spear will cover mountains to stop their workforce

IT it works, workers flee home at Novogord
we get IW, next is wheel in 7

2.2070BC
no iron whatsoever, can't find a single one anywhere :(
in the far east dispatch a barb camp for 25g, up research at -4gpt to speed up wheel

3.2030BC
our spear stands now between Novogord and St Petersburg to disrupt local workforce
in the west an archer and elite jag hunt the settler pair
new town will be on a hill 1 tile away from river :sad: , a little awkward but far better defense
reduce lux to 20% due to temple

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr42030.jpg

4.1990BC
Found Sugar on a Hill, set to rax

IT Russia founds Yekatarinburg in front of our eyes and a barb camp
eastern jag gets reduced to 1hp but defeats Russian warrior

5.1950BC
want to let 2 barbs attack town first, jag flees for safety, spear parks on hill between to towns

IT archers are approaching us

6.1910BC
no change at Yekatarinburg, decide it's time to attack, elite jag retreats with 2 hp spear left, archer attack and
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr41910.jpg

IT jag that moved to front is chased by 4 archers
wheel comes in, masonry next

7.1870BC
:dance: we do have horses, in fact there are 3 horses in sight but 2 are in Russian territory
next settler goes west to make use of the wheat
slip a jag under spear cover for pillage purpose

8. 1830BC
shuffling units, settler in place, we will face 5 archers soon
and our jag starts his evil business, disconnect Novogord from St Petersburg

IT 3 archers run towards pillage jag (our core gains time this way) he gets attacked by 1 archers, defeats him and promotes elite

9. 1790BC
found West of Wheat, err yes west of the wheat
jag goes undercover at spear and all their archers turn again towards our land (IT)

10.1750BC
pull 2 more jags towards front, but one runs into an archer :smoke: likely to be killed next IT
once masonry is in, change builds to walls, we need more worker, have only 3
one worker ready to connect horses
left 2/5 hp pillage jag for next player to decide what to do


our land and Russia, note the horse in Persian land
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr41750.jpg

We are looking strong. First city down too.

Barbslinger, I am guessing you need time to get ready for your trip. You can get your turn when you are able. In the mean time, Bezhukov, you would be up.

So:
Greebley
TheRat
Barbslinger - Tell us when you can play...
Bezhukov - Up
Handy900 - On deck
Bed_head7

Hmm... Bezhukov asn't posted since him asking if he can get in. A PM might be in order... I will send. Give him 24 hours from this time. Otherwise Handy will be up. I am hoping he simply forgot to check back into this thread.

Sorry bout that - forgot I had signed up. Can play tomorrow night.

people who are known to have played more AW than is good for them (Handy, Barbslinger and I all have 10+ games)

:lol: and that does not even count the solo tiny maps I play for fun.

I see we are already razing cities. :D

The map layout looks great. If we have iron we'll be in excellent shape.

We can't see every square, but Iron is starting to look unlikely. \

We should keep an eye out on Persia. If they get Iron, then we probably will want to make a go at taking it from them.

Pre-flight: This should be fun – never been behind the wheel of a jag before. I have been a bug on their windshield a time or two. :lol: Make use of GA production to speed up worker from Fields by a turn. Hmmm, knowing the early GA was coming, probably would have been good idea to mine wheat, as we are agricultural. Too late now. Up research a tick to get Masonry in two.

IBT: exposed jag defeats attacking archer flawlessly, promotes! :crazyeye: Three Persian units approach.

1725BC: Fields:worker->jag, Sugar:barracks->spear, river:archer->worker. Elite jag continues his flawless magic, dispatching a reg Russian archer.

IBT: Persian archer defeats barb warrior to north (that’s 4 Persian units), two Russian archers occupy hill near sugar.

1700BC: Jag Den: settler->archer, swap Sugar to walls in three. Masonry->HBR in 6, MM to get jag in one from fields. Send settler to get cow, coastal river location.

IBT: Russian archers head for exposed worker, leave hill near sugar. Persians approach Sugar.

1675BC: Fields:jag->archer, River:worker->archer, Elite jag redlines before taking out reg archer. Vet archer whiffs on Persian spear. Vet archer kills Persian spear and promotes. Vet archer kills Russian vet archer. Elite jag retreats from Persian warrior.

IBT: Persian vet warrior impales on vet spear in sugar (def bombard hits)

1650BC: Jag:archer->temple (gonna try to sneak it in during GA), elite archer (4/5) kills persian reg archer near Sugar. Elite jag near Russian capital is healed – pillage cow tile.

IBT: GA over. :rolleyes:

1625BC: Cow pasture founded, starts on warrior. Sugar:walls->spear

IBT: Russian archers flee to protect the homeland.

1600BC: Fields:archer->worker, River:jag->warrior (mp), archer and jag take out barbs threatening fields. Elite jag dies to reg Persian warrior, elite jag redlines before taking out demon warrior. Swap West of wheat to warrior for mp, so he can make workers.

1575BC: forces moving in to take out Novgorod.

1550BC: Fields:worker_>settler, Elite jag doesn’t scratch reg archer near St. Pete., swap River to worker in one, timed with growth.

IBT: HBR comes in. Alpha in 7

1525BC: marshall 4 archers for attack on Novgorod

IBT: archer moves out of Novgorod to impale self on our spear.

1500BC: Battle of Novgorod: Vet archer whiffs on reg spear. Vet archer redlines taking out reg spear. Vet archer defeats reg spear, Novgorod is autorazed. We get one slave. Cover conquering archer with spear. Three archers lay in wait in case our spear is defeated. Elite jag retreats from reg archer.

Jag Den should make a temple next turn with the tiles it gets from growth. Wouldn’t normally go for temples in AW, but we have no luxes anywhere close, and lots of juicy tiles to work. Back line cities are making warriors for MP duty – can be swapped if preferred.

Hmmm, knowing the early GA was coming, probably would have been good idea to mine wheat, as we are agricultural.when I started the turns, the wheat was not even roaded and the border yet to expand, it only did after a few turns, knowing that GA would be over soon and mining takes 6 turns, I didn't even bother. I rather have growth support for both wheat towns so we can churn out more settlers and workers. we will need plenty of them, the land is HUGE

Bummer about all of those elite wins without a leader.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4-1500BC.JPG

:smoke: pls relieve the worker I sent to road the hill for some reason.

how about this dotmap?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4dot.jpg

No sweat on irrigating the wheat - since it is irrigated, given the number of cities required, should we try to set up a settler factory?

As for elite wins, the most dissappointing thing was the number of elite losses. Our jags were sucking wind. Thankfully, we can now build horsies. :)

jags are pretty useless IMHO except for:

run and pillage and draw attention from enemy. now we have horsies, we shouldn't even bother to build jags any longer

Greebley
TheRat
Barbslinger - Tell us when you can play...
Bezhukov - Just Played
Handy900 - Up
Bed_head7 - On Deck.


I would move the Westmost Pink dot on the coast one square SW. That way it is within 3 of River's Bend. Its always nice to have 2 towns that can donate their defender to a coastal town. In the current setup that one town is only supported by one city.

I'd also like to move that hill city one tile north - with all the extra food, would like to reserve the opportunity to mine that hill. Given the surrounding geography, should be relatively easy to defend even without being on a hill.

I would move the Westmost Pink dot on the coast one square SW good point

I'd also like to move that hill city one tile north if we talk about the same pink dot, you got to be careful since it would mean some 4tiles spacing

anyway I would us rather start to expand towards Russia and the choke, we can fill back later on. send out a curragh for some exploration as well

Greebley - I see I'm up in 2 SG's tonight. I'll play this first tonight and the AWD game after this one.

"you got to be careful since it would mean some 4tiles spacing"

Yeah, but that's what I meant about the geography. With the way the land bends right there, a unit or two could be stationed on that hill to create a mini-choke, and to cover both cities in range at once. I think that spot north of the hill reaches 3 food bonuses (counting sugar) with expansion.

"anyway I would us rather start to expand towards Russia and the choke, we can fill back later on."

I was thinking this too initially, but given the potential productivity of our backfill sites and the risk of becoming overextended (Russia still has 7 cities, Persia 5), might make more sense to get our defensible lands developed first. Sure would like to get those wines, though.

Pre Turn
After the MP warriors complete we need some barracks.
I can see an Iron icon peeking out of a mountain tile in the fog 4 tiles E of Rostov.

IBT
Lose a jag
Den - Temple – 3 turn pony
West – MP warrior - barracks
See a Persian archer approach from the North

Turn 1 1475
Slave runs for home.
Archers healing on the hill under spear cover.

IBT
River Bend – MP – walls
Cow – MP - barracks

Turn 2 1450
Elite spear offs red lined archer.
Three Russian archers head toward Sugar.
There are now 2 Persian archers N of our borders.

Turn 3 1425

IBT
Russians ask for peace.
Now 5 Russian and 4 Persian archers head for our lands.
Den – Horse – spear
Fields – Settler – spear
Rivers Bend – walls – spear
Sugar – spear – spear
All the new units want to be paid, so slider drops and Alpha now due in 4.
All the cities exposed to Persia have walls and at two spears except the capital.
Den gets switched from horse to spear to get a 2 turn spears done. I like to have 2 spears behind walls instead of only1.

Turn 4 1400
We can build & shuffle units to cover the new settler if he moves to the southern dot map on the river, or hold him and place him in the core. I’ll save him until spear cover is built and settle another core. We need to get our capital off the front lines.

IBT
Russians turn around for 1 turn since I moved our archers onto flat land near their home. I’ll cover them with a spear next turn.

Turn 5 1375
Settler moves to blue dot next to the horses.
The slave is there also in case we have to sacrifice him to rush walls.
Persians are headed to the Capital, or perhaps Fields of Wheat S of the capital, which is lightly defended with no walls.
Pony slays a lone Persian archer and retreats.
Spear situation looks okay, so Den is switched from spear to pony.

IBT
Alpha – Math
West – barracks – spear

Turn 6 1350
Found Glue Factory next to the horses and start building walls. The archers are next door, so if we rush walls they won’t be done in time for the battle. I’m working forest to get the walls in 5, be sure to switch to food after the walls are done.
Math currently due in 13 @ 0gpt with 10 in the bank.
Shuffle tiles to get spears on the IBT in Wheat and River. Lots of MM opportunities.
MM moves math out a turn since we are working forest with no roads.

IBT
Lose 1 vet spear at the Glue factory, but another promotes.
Den – pony – pony
Wheat – spear – spear
River – Persian archer moved onto the wrong tile, which means our spear was delayed.

Turn 7 1325
Elite jag removed archer
Elite jag offs archer
Horse deletes archer
Vet jag erases a regular archer.
No more Persians, but also no leaders for the Aztecs.
We are #1 in pop, GNP and goods.
The action at St Pete went poorly. We had a stack of three archers and two spears. The first archer lost without making a dent in the regular spear. The second archer lost but took off 1 hp. When a healed spear appears the remaining archer and spear decided to just pillage as allowed and look around a bit since that assault was doomed to failure. Maybe if we park the stack next to successive Russian towns we can get Cathy to whip them.

:D IBT :D
As I take a bite of pasta the Elite spear as the Glue factory morphs into a leader.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Leader.JPG
Perhaps there is iron in our future after all. Now I wish I hadn’t burned those 2 archers in the St Pete campaign.
River – spear – archer.
Mayans complete the Pyramids. They are going to be strong in this game.

Turn 8 1300
The two spears & archer near St Pete begin to return home. We’ll need these spears to cover our army as it goes on a killing spree.
Leader goes to the Den and is loaded with the 2 horses there. The third horse is due in 2 turns.
I guess we want a horse army over archers. Archers are cheaper, but OTOH they don’t retreat either. A Horse can pick off 2 stray Russian archers & still move under the spears as it travels to the next destination. It’s a good homeland mobile defense force after pikes come in. We shouldn’t be attacking unless the army is fully healed, so retreat ability in not that big a deal.
Fields get switched to settler. The newly mined tiles will pump out spear cover more quickly, and our archer army is going to place Russia on the defensive, so we should be able to settle another city, maybe S of Wheat on the river. We need more cities for the unit support.
Swap some tiles to get Barracks in 1 in Cow.
Horse army sets off to shake down some barbs for cash.

IBT
Den – archer – archer
Sugar - archer – spear
Cow barracks – spear
Barb horsemen appear
Inca build the oracle
Maya build MoM
Hittites build SoZ
Spear beats archer @ Glue.

Turn 9 1275
Get 25 gold, pop the hut and kill all barbs N of River.
Jav will remain as a lookout on hill N of River so workers can safely improve tiles @ River. Barb horsemen killing workers is a major sin.

Turn 10 1250
Load the third horse in the army.
MM some – see the notes.

Note:
If we want the Glib we should switch the settler build in Fields of wheat to the Palace and mine those mountains and hills. Or start the pre build after the settler.
West of Wheat had to hire a scientist in 1250. You can built settler after the spear is done, or switch the spear to settler now.
I slowed growth in Den so it grows in 3 and gets a horse in three. Then you can get a 1-turn worker and go back to building horses.
Walls in Glue factory are due in 1, then let it work a food tile to grow.
Math in 8 –3gpt with 31 in the bank.

1250 bc

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR04_1250bc.JPG

Good work Handy. We are looking strong. I agree a military campaign vs the Russians with the army seems in order. Remember to defend it since it is only defense 1. If it loses 1/2 its hit points it could be attacked. I would also like to see us continue to grow if we can.

Neither Russsia, Persia, or Ourselves have iron yet. I am hoping there is some on our continent.

I think we do need the GLib. I would Switch Fields of Wheat to a Palace and West of Wheat could build the settler.

Neither Russsia, Persia, or Ourselves have iron yet. I am hoping there is some on our continent.
I saw what looked like an Iron icon peeking out of a mountain tile in the fog 4 tiles E of Rostov.

I think we do need the GLib. I would Switch Fields of Wheat to a Palace and West of Wheat could build the settler.
100% agree.

Remember to defend it [army] since it is only defense 1.
Very important point. There are 2 spears on a hill due east of the Glue Factory that can meet up with the army and provide cover. Don't get impatient with the army. Only attack if the army is green. Remember, armies can heal in enemy territory. If it take 3 or 5 tunrs to raze a city, so be it. :hammer;

1225 BC (1) - Send the army to Yaroslavl' and take out a spear.

IT - Three archers outside Glue Factory, two attack and one spear lost.

1200 BC (2) - Army razes Yaroslavl'. Pick up two slaves.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1200BC_yaroslavl.jpg

1175 BC (3) - Jaguar's Den grows, and the options are raise lux or hire a taxman, so I hire a taxman.

1125 BC (5) - Raze St. Petersburg.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1125BC_stpete.jpg

1025 BC (9) - Found Horsies on a Hill, making us a step closer to the wines. Kill a couple Persian archers.

1000 BC (10) - Take out a couple of Persian spearmen. Raze Vladivostok. Having an army this early sure is nice.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1000BC_vladivostok.jpg

Notes - Move the jag in Glue Factory back to Fields of Wheat for MP duty, and bring the spearman back over. I made the switch this turn in order to keep order in FoW, as there were no units around Glue Factory. I haven't done much AW, so I am not sure what sort of balance we want to strick between crippling the opponent/expanding/protecting what we have. My instinct would be to cripple opponent/expand, but I opted to play a bit more carefully here, and after the fact it feels too careful. So let me know. Only one city built, and no settlers in production, just feels weird.

There are some undefended slaves roading towards the wine. I want to get that hooked up to help with our happiness issues. So far, no problems with that, as there is a spear there moving along as permanent defense and other units around to step in.

I also forgot to mention that we learned Math, and started Writing due in six or seven turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1000BC.jpg

good progress :goodjob:

hope you are right, handy! we need iron. as for the army, as long as we fith spears, a green army could attack, its so fast to retreat, so keep those cover spears within distance, that should do the trick.

are we not thinking of sending a curragh or galley for some recon trip.


EDIT: greebley, read the instructions again, so it's ok to send out the army more than 5 tiles if we do not pillage and bypass cities, but merely raze?

Keep pressing and razing with the army and it's spear escorts.

Jaguar Den pulls 10 shields, so when it grows to the point it must hire a specialist you can then build a 1 turn worker. The Den will still pull 10 shileds the next turn for 3 turn ponies since the specialist is the citizen that became the worker. A 10 shield city is very handy. :) Watch the Den's food box, nd when it gets full, peel off another worker.

When our other cities grow beyond what the MP can handle, build a settler to knock the pop back down. We get 4 free unit support for each city, so we need to be building settlers all the time at this phase of the game. We still have core cities spots to settle toward Persia. Make sure you bring at least 2 spears to each new city that will be on the front lines. If the city is in a very hot battle zone, you can bring a slave or worker, join him to the city and then rush the walls.

The army will raze cities much faster than we can settle, but that's okay. It cripples the AI. The AI will build settlers for the empty land, and you can collect slaves when you have the opportunity. Don't fret if the AI settles a city in land you recently razed, it will be easy to raze again since the garrison will be small. Keep the pressure on with that army.

greebley, read the instructions again, so it's ok to send out the army more than 5 tiles if we do not pillage and bypass cities, but merely raze?
99.9% sure that's a yes.

Be careful not to underbuild spears. We need them for defense on the front lines until we can get our cat count up. We are building cats somewhere now that we have math - right?

greebley, read the instructions again, so it's ok to send out the army more than 5 tiles if we do not pillage and bypass cities, but merely raze?

This is correct. There is no limit on razing cities in terms of distance.

It looks like I am up too. I got it.

There is one cat in progress. I suppose it should be more. I built mostly horsemen and only a couple of spearmen, and I totally forgot about peeling a worker off Jaguar Den even though you recommended it, handy. It is also hard to build a settler in a city that is doing a good number for horsemen like 8spt, but next time around I will do that.

I think it was a very good turn. Concentrating on military is a good choice too in this situation. We are on a major offensive vs Russia and it would nice to go for some of Persia as well.

I will look into building settlers. We need them, but I also would like to keep our initiative with the Military.

I think it was a very good turn.

Me too. :goodjob: Razing Russian cities will allow us to grab the wines our armies crave and put the hurt on Persia before they put it on us. :D

I totally forgot about peeling a worker off Jaguar Den
Not a big deal. We all get better when we offer constructive ideas to each other.

Preturn: Things look pretty good. I do switch another bigger town to Catapults.

Early: Army Heals and then heads toward Moscow. Build a second force of Horsemen for the other Russian towns. MM Fields of Wheat to get the palace quicker.
It also occurs to me that if I can get the palace to be worth 400 shields then I don't have to slow down to get Literature. Switch to settlers for some towns.

Mid: Attack on Moscow succeeds with no Losses We capture it. Attack on Rostov autodestroys the city.

We get the FP message.

Late: Horsemen that attacked Rostov are healing and waiting for the Army.

Notes:
I have MM'ed Literature to be in 6 turns at the cost of the growth of our little towns. Palace builds in 7. After we place the next town check to see if the palace jumps to 400 shields. In which case we have more time and you can put the scientists back to work.

I built enough towns that we not paying any unit cost. We are up to 12 (including Moscow) and will build one more. I will mark where I would put it on the map. When we get wines we can reduce Lux and may be able to get Lit in 6 turns by raising science and firing the scientists.

We should have wines soon

Does anyone know for sure at what size our palace is 400 shields. I think it is 13 or 14. If 13 doesn't work we can try to capture Yakusk.

Russia is pretty much dead. She has 3 towns total with Yakusk (size 2) as the capitol. That means the other two are size 1 and 2 also and no town will have any buildings.

I saw ZERO Persian troops. I strongly suspect we share the continent with a 3rd AI with Persia and the other AI being at war.

Switch Towns building regular spearman to walls or something. I forgot to set some towns I settled and captured

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_BC750.JPG

:lol: look at the starting positions of Persepolis and moskow and it's no wonder they are doing so badly.

Got it, will also try and get a dingy out to explore a little, we need more Ai's in war mode now that we can 'control' the main Island

I was thinking of delaying contact. IF we get the GLib it doesn't matter how technically advanced the AI gets. When we meet them we get the techs.

I also think "war mode" has very little effect on an AI if they are doing the attacking. In PTW, there was a noticable slowdown. I am not at all sure that is true anymore. They just burn the normal units they would build anyway.

Now if we were attacking them there is a very visible effect.

Excellent progress! :D

Good builds in corrupt cities are cats and workers. You don't need a barracks to build cats.

Also - don't mine corrupt cities - irrigate them. As an agricultural civ a size 6 city irrigated supports 3 scientists with grass irrigated.


I also think "war mode" has very little effect on an AI if they are doing the attacking. In PTW, there was a noticable slowdown. I am not at all sure that is true anymore. They just burn the normal units they would build anyway.

I'm not so sure. I like the thought of flushing archer after archer in a regular stream versus seeing a huge stack that the AI has accumulated over a long period. It also seems like the people you have not met have a huge empire since they have been building settlers instead of archers. This is just an opinion from observation, and my opinion could be skewed from PTW and be totally wrong. I think my AW style also affects my opinion. I tend to try to get people in wars early, build lots of cats & spears, get an attack army and then start grinding the AI down with an artillery/army steamroller. Also, war mode is more important in a wonderless game where you know you'll be behind in techs and have to flush a lot of shields to slow those guys down. For those who care, I'm testing the "get them in war mode early" concept on Sid using a regular size island map here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115582). But that's islands, which play a lot differently.


With that said, in this game we may want to delay meeting another civ if we can until we rid oursilves of the two we have met.

Very good news for us in this game. :D Given this is AWDG, we are on the offensive very early before we have any artillery which is a very good thing. We also have great homelands and the right civ to take advantage of it.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_550BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
things looking good, MM some

1.730BC
settle on top of BG since it will be connected and next to river (red dot of Greebleys map anyway)
well it didn't change the palace build
send army east to see whether Handy was right

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4730.jpg

:dance:

send horse towards desert and spot a stack of 9 Persian archers :eek:
some workers on auto :nono:

2.710BC
wine connected, lower lux by 10%
army advance to iron town

IT Persian stack retreats?

3.690BC
take out Orenburg

IT Persian stack moves northeast

4. 670BC
nth much

IT stack returns?

5.650BC
spot a 2nd lux in northeast, this is the direction of expansion for us, iron + lux

IT get literature, next is mysticism to get monarchy

6.630BC
GLib due in 9, fire the scientists to get growth restarted

IT there are a lot of settler pairs running around
Celts come out with 3 archers from Lapurdum

7.610BC
our horses follow those archers now since they move towards our land
elite horse takes out one of them
army captures Yakutsk, decide to keep it, we will expand that way anyway
Russia is OCC and I won't go after them until we have GLib finsihed and milked some techs

IT Maya finish Great wall

8. 590BC
while beating more of the archer stack
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4750.jpg
pull it to Glue factory to let the team decide whether we build FP (and where?) or army

9. 570BC
moving around, the archer stack sort of waits to be killed, very weird
reduce science, mystcism in next turn

IT go for Polytheism in 12

10.350BC
take out barb camp next to choke in the west
2 settlers now heading northwest slowly
army takes out first persian town Tyre for 19g
if we feel Yakutsk can't be defended, then abandon it
GL in 5

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4550.jpg


REMEMBER there is a MGL in Glue factory
Another issue I strongly suggest to milk GL best. Wait for it to finish to get some techs and then defeat Russians so we only know 1 Civ and make a huge lap once we meet more Civ's. what you all think?

Guess this means I'm up? Will play this evening.

Russia is OCC and I won't go after them until we have GLib finsihed and milked some techs

Another issue I strongly suggest to milk GL best. Wait for it to finish to get some techs and then defeat Russians so we only know 1 Civ and make a huge lap once we meet more Civ's. what you all think?

Nice set rat :thumbsup:
Sounds like a plan.

How long until we can hook up the iron? A sword army would be really nice to have if we don't have to sit on the leader for too long.

This game looks really good so far.

I'd really like to use this leader for an FP, if at all possible. We're going to have to plant a lot of cities to claim all this land, so raising the OCN could really help out. Fighting without an army is more difficult, but gives us more chances for more leaders. Lot easier to get elites/leaders with horsies than archers, due to retreats.

Hmm... Sword army or FP?

I think I would go sword Army right away. That way if the GLib fails we have something worthwhile to switch to.

In other words, we build the army now, prioritize getting the iron. The next leader can build the FP if the GLib works.

----------------

In this particular case, there are two types of civs. Ones on our continent and ones that are not. If we meet the ones on our continent and give them us to fight, then they and Persia are more likely to make peace.

We could cross seas and meet the other civs, but if they have to get astronomy to reach us then when we meet them the GLib we will get through astronomy (assuming we don't get Education first, but if that is a danger we can go meet the other continent to Max our techs before that happens.

In other words I want to concentrate on Persia and then go for anyone else on our continent and hold off contact. That way it doesn't matter how fast they research, we will catch up with whichever ones we meet first (which are likely to be the technically advanced ones if we let them come to us because they are the first ones to make it across the ocean.

I would also like to fill the remaining land so we don't tempt early contact. I am more happy clearing our own continent than having half our troops behind lines due to ships.

In other words I want to concentrate on Persia and then go for anyone else on our continent and hold off contact. That way it doesn't matter how fast they research, we will catch up with whichever ones we meet first (which are likely to be the technically advanced ones if we let them come to us because they are the first ones to make it across the ocean.
well said, exactly what I think.

By the way, I do not think we have to deal with another Civ on our continent, it would have surely shown up already. What really puzzles me is Persia's hesitance to try and settle empty land. They must be stuck with really horrible terrain.

Pre-flight: A sword army, you say? That would have been third on my list (with all those hitpoints, I like the extra move of the horse army), but a sword army it is, when swords become available.

Do some MM-ing to get growth in places that need it, without sacrificing production. Swap Sugar to horse from settler to let him hit 4 pop before making settler – going down to one-pop is too debilitating. Moscow gets a warrior for MP duty to relieve the specialist and help prevent flippage. Swap River’s Bend to temple so we can grab the nearby bg that needs a border expansion.

Finally find the iron, and a sword army would be all well and good right now, but we’re nowhere near the iron! Hmmm, tough choice. We have two vet horses chomping at the bit, so pull the trigger on another horse army. With any luck whatsoever, we should have plentiful leaders this game, don’t see sitting on this one for the ten turns (at least) until iron is hooked up. Load up two vets, and he goes up to get the star. With Persia this weak, horsearmy should do work.

IBT: Persian stack approaches Yakutsk

530BC: Sugar:horse->spear (he has three happy citizens, I’ll bleed unhappy pop instead), Moscow:warrior->walls, New army takes out one of the Persian archers.

IBT: Archers scatter, a couple spears head for our core.

510BC: We miss bombard on Persian spear, will hold off a turn. 2 vet horses, 1 elite horse and two horse armies mop up 7 Persian archers. No losses, though one of our armies redlines taking out a barb horse, and promotes! Our horse/spear scout team at eastern landbridge find Persian settler pair. Our settler party (bunch of workers roading, settler, two elite archers and an elite jag scouting) bumps into a barb camp.

IBT: great, uprising! Idiot barb horses cross river in order to attack our elite jag in forest across river. Two die, the rest head for Yakutsk.

490BC: Our cat squad (all of two) headed to Yakutsk lets fire on approaching persian vet spear. One of two hits, and our vet horse redlines, but takes him out. Wait for settler pair to leave hill to attack. Armies and horses head to Yakutsk to heal as barbs approach.

IBT: Persian settler pair moves onto flatland. Second spear approaches Sugar.

470BC: West of Wheat:spear->horse, redline aproaching reg spear with cats, take him out with vet spear. Take out settler pair, gaining us two much needed slaves. Found Tamuin on southern coast.

IBT: two more Persian archers crest the hill.

450BC: Jag:library (finally!)->horse, Fields->GL!->worker, Horsies:cat->cat, vet horses and healthy army go to clear out barbs and promote.

IBT: We learn Map Making, 5 barb horses approach Sugar, army in chase

430BC: Fields:worker->worker (will check lux rate first), Sugar:spear->spear, Cow:settler->warrior, glue factory:worker->cat, swap Fields to horse. Ton of MM to get Fields and Den to 10spt. Vet horse takes out barb horse near sugar, promotes. Cat squad and workers forced to fall back. Elite horse and army head to Persepolis.

IBT: Barb horses actually intelligent – flee army, head to core.

410BC: River:temple->settler, Yakutsk:walls->barracks. Cats let fly on approaching barbs, elite horse takes one out. Find 4 archers near Persepolis, take out one with full health army. Two barb horse near Yakutsk dispatched, two near iron settling crew taken out by elite archers.

IBT: Barb horses approach Persian archers near Yakutsk, 3 more show up from iron area.
390BC: Jag Den:horse->horse, Wheat:spear->worker, Hill by the Sea:cat->harbor. Elite horse, jag, vet spear take out remaining barbs threatening home front with cat support, army heads back to main front.

IBT: Persian archer takes out barb horse for us, barb horse nearly kills our full health elite horse near iron crew.

370BC: Fields:horse->horse, pop-rush harbor in rivermouth, pillage Persian horses again.

IBT: More barb horses – yippee! Poly comes in, Monarchy in 19

350BC: West:worker->temple, River Mouth:harbor->temple (can be changed if next player wishes)

Figured I had to do something this set other than whack-a-barb, so with second army covering, razed Arbela (Persian horse city) for 17 gold. Smack around a barb horse near iron, settler approaches. Got GL, killed lots o barbs, and we’re set up nicely to take/raze Persepolis soon. Too many barbs to build road to Persia, should be clear now. Oh, and lost no units.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4-350BC.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Arbela.JPG

This game is playing like monarch. Amazing what a lack of iron for the AI and an early horse army will do for us. :D

Nice job.

This game is playing like monarch. Amazing what a lack of iron for the AI and an early horse army will do for us. :D

Don't forget popping a settler from a hut. That alone is worth more than a full level in difficulty. Yeah, the AI had two settlers to start, but the human is much better at managing the early growth curve.

This game is playing like monarchand don't forget their starting locations, anything but ideal
but, we still got a mountain to climb with the other continent

Forgot to readjust Cow Pasture after growth, pls MM for settler on growth.

Thx! :)

By the way the reason for a sword army rather than a Horse army is that the horse army will be attacked by attack 4 units in open lands. So if Persia got Iron, an Immortal might take out the healthy army. You can also be attacked by strength 3 units if you go to 6-7 hp.

The defense 2 means your army can defend itself. This actually gives it more flexibility in that you don't need 2-3 speed one units to protect it.

Note that a sword and Horse army is good in that the sword army can defend the horse one.

Back from my long skip. Was sure you alredy finished the Mayan one, so I will lurk here to get the SG feeling back :)

Given that we have yet to see an immortal, and that if we eliminate the Persian with due dispatch, we never will, let us press on with horse armies!

Game looks good! I would love to play whıle here but they have odd electrıcal outlets here so I wıll have to waıt untıl Monday when I fly to Seattle. I am at an ınternet cafe.

Greetıngs from Istanbul!

Glad you are back on the scene Grs :D

Actually, I am not really worried about immortals (just an example) or Persia. Its the civ that is AFTER persia that I would want the sword army.

Basically:
A horseman army is useful until knights/longbow and muskets appear.
A Sword Army is useful until Cavalry and Rifles

I prefer the greater milage of the sword army even if it means one less attack given how strong we are vs Persia.

And as I mentioned before when the horse army gets injured it hides under the sword army.

who is up btw?

We'll just have to get two sword armies to cover the horsies, then!

:lol:

Pentagon should not be terribly far in the future, at which point, the horsearmies get a nice upgrade, while retaining their three attacks.

who is up btw?

Greebley I think since Bez played last

Barbslinger, Ok, we will see what the timing is when your next turn comes around. I think you will be back

Greebley
TheRat
Barbslinger
Bezhukov - Just Played
Handy900 - Up
Bed_head7 - On Deck.

Handy900 - Up

Oops... I was looking at the roster on page 1. I'm free so I got it and I'll play this right now.

Pre turn
Things look good. Switch some builds
Cow to horse from settler
West from Temple to horse
Hill from harbor to barracks

IBT
Den – horse – horse
Moscow – walls – worker
River – settler – horse
Sugar – spear – spear
Wineyard – worker – worker
Cuzco builds HG

Turn 1 330
Going to settle on a hill next to the iron away from the mountain of fire.
Spot gems N of Persian capital.
River will become our third 10spt city.

IBT
Fields of Wheat – horse – worker. Food Box is full so it will stay @ 10spt.

Turn 2 350
Bomb & kill Persian spear near Hills of gold by the lake. That is a fresh water lake and we can place down 5 cites CxxC around the lake and those 5 cities can support specialists.

Turn 3 310
Kill 2 spear at Persepolis
The settler reaches the site of Iron Mountain and will found the city next turn.
The workers are making their way there.

IBT
We learn COL
Some barb horses make suicide runs at the units covering our workers.
Fields of Wheat – worker – horse

Turn 4 290
Raze Persepolis
Found Iron Mountain
Found Gold by the Lake – worker. See no need to build walls here. It will be in the middle of the empire, and Persia is not a threat. We can change it if we meet a monster AI N of Persia.

IBT
Den – horse – worker (box full)
Cow – horse – horse
Tamuin – walls - barracks. We can chop a harbor and start building galleys here. We will need them to get to the next continent.

Turn 5 270
Moscow hires a specialist

IBT
Den – worker – horse
River – horse – horse
Sugar – spear – spear
Horsies – cat – settler
Hill by Sea – spear – spear

Turn 6 250
Found Wheat by Sea – regular warriors for MP
Persia is down to 5 cities and Russian has one.

IBT
Fields – horse – horse
West of Wheat – horse – settler (watch out – it will get unhappy before the settler is done)
Glue – cat – settler
Rome builds ToA

Turn 7 230
Steal some barb gold from 2 camps.
There are gems SE of Iron Mountain, and Spices NE of Iron Mountain.
Kill 2 spears at Pasargadae with the Army

Turn 8 210
Not much

Turn 9 190
Elite wins fail to deliver leaders.

IBT
Fields – horse – horse
Sugar – spear – settler

Turn 9 170
Off a few stray archers. We have not lost a unit yet in these turns.

IBT
Cow – horse – settler

Turn 10 150
Road to iron is done. I guess these guys will build a road to the spices 2 tiles away and colonize them
Raze Pasargadae.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR04_150bc.JPG

Ideas for the west & east

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Westdot.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Easttdot.JPG

I took the save there, but are you sure you attached the right one? It says 1500BC.

Its the wrong save handy. I loaded it up and it indeed 1500 BC save.

I updated the first post so it will match the one we are playing with and be less confusing.

Its the wrong save handy. I loaded it up and it indeed 1500 BC save.

:blush: I can fix this at 5:30pn CST when I get home.

I updated the first post so it will match the one we are playing with and be less confusing.
I'm not too sure what the above quote means though. Pretty sure I started with the correct save.

:blush:

I updated the first post so it will match the one we are playing with and be less confusing.

I'm not too sure what the above quote means though. Pretty sure I started with the correct save.

I think this is a reference to the roster confusion between the current and initial.

For your second comment I switched subjects to the roster order. The very first post of this thread now has the roster order we are using, rather than the old one. You mentioned you didn't realize you were up because you looked at the first post and that roster order was wrong. It is now fixed :D

[Edit: I should have quoted the comment I was responding to, otherwise my initial statement doesn't make any sense. Sorry for being confusing.

For your second comment I switched subjects to the roster order. The very first post of this thread now has the roster order we are using, rather than the old one. You mentioned you didn't realize you were up because you looked at the first post and that roster order was wrong. It is now fixed :D


Ok Thanks. Sorry about the save screwup. handy promises to be more careful. :)

Had to upload this one the old fashioned way. Forum is slow and uploads don't seem to want to work. Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_150BC.SAV)

ok, so I am not the only one that experiences a total shut down recently of a few hours and this morning (here in s'pore) it is quite erratic again to access.

Okay, I have the right save now.

ok, so I am not the only one that experiences a total shut down recently of a few hours and this morning (here in s'pore) it is quite erratic again to access.

Good in a way to hear you had problems also. I was hoping it was not my computer. It seems a little better now, but it took over an hour to get the upload to take.

150 BC (0) - Decide to kill the Russian archer outside of Wheat by the Sea, since there is only one spearman there.

90 BC (3) - Raze Bactra for 22g.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_90BC_russians.jpg

70 BC (4) - Capture Antioch.

IT - Woah.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_70BC_suntzu.jpg

And then I forgot about a turnlog.

I'll sum up the important things. We learn Monarchy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_10BC_monarchy.jpg

Manage eight turns. Didn't I manage eight turns in the last game as well? Four turns left on the revolution, I think.

Persia has one settler and one city. Russians gone. As such, I did not worry too much about defending our settlers. I sort of just sent them on their way. There are units in reach of them all, but they are not adequately defended for standard AW. Of course, I think we now have the continent to ourselves, or will in a turn, so this isn't exactly standard AW. Barbs are our biggest threat.

Oh, sorry for playing extra turn. I wasn't really paying attention.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_70AD_persian_remains.jpg

Quite an achievement to control a continent this early in the game. :thumbsup:

I suppose we should turn research to zero now that we have monarchy and grow a big pile of cash for a knight upgrade while we wait for the people across the seas to find us. We'll want a nice stack of rock throwing machines for our invasion.

Good work Bedhead.

I got it.

Preturn: I don't want to turn off research entirely. We need Construction and Currency for Aquaducts and Markets. With those we can continue to grow. If contact takes a while it will get us more cash in the end. Since we are still settling, I go for Currency first.

IBT: Persia's settler settles.

90 AD: Army takes out Capitol, A Horseman destroys the spear guarding the other city. Persia is Destroyed We no have no enemies other than Barbarians.

Lose a Horseman vs a Barbarian Warrior.

110 AD: Kill a Barbarian

IBT: We are now a Monarchy.

130 AD: Lose a Horseman to a Barbarian.
I notice we don't have the FP yet. I think we want it ASAP, so I build it in Fields of Wheat. We are already late with it.

While things are quiet I concentrate on Settlers in a big way.

Late: Hunt Barbarians. Build settlers.

Notes:
A lot will depend on how long it is before contact is made.

Our gpt is currently low. This is because of unit cost and because I shrank some cities to build the settlers. We have built 8 settlers which will handle the current unit costs.

My hope was to quickly finish up the settling phase and then we can start Infrastructure (Courthouses, Aquaducts, Markets, Libs). The problem with building units is that they are exensive to upgrade. it will already cost us 2520 to upgrade our Horses to Knights.

Have far away cities build workers which then irrigate. We will want many scientists in the Corrupt cities. That way when we do make contact we have good science without needing to sink all our money into it. I like to do it in phases:
1) build up workers to get the land improved.
2) Grow (no scientists yet).
3) Switch to Scientists.

Steps 2 and 3 are usually intermixed though - some scientists and some growth.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_AD250.JPG

How many luxes do we have on our continent? We may be able to manage some WLTK days to help along somewhat corrupt cities in their development.

agree with greebleys plan, as long as we go slow on research we can use those specialsts for taxmen as well.

got it, playing soon. do we now wait for 2 Civ's to contact us for the GliB effect or do we send out a galley or 2 to explore our shores?

I'd like to A. wait for civs to contact us, so the GL gives us more tech and we can amass some coin for upgrades.

B. research currency and construction ASAP, or our economy will be pretty pathetic, defeating the purpose of A.

I agree completely Bezhukov on both A and B. We slow research after Currency and Construction. Otherwise, our towns won't have anything to build.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_350AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
things look good but am a bit wary of sending settler without escorts when there are barbs around.
with our governours on shield emphasis, we need to MM for growth in those totally corrupted towns every turn

early:
settle more land and try to keep barbs at bay

middle:
settle and fight barbs, get currency -> construction
Maya finish knights templar (turn 6)
using scientists in high growth towns to skim off turns on construction

late
we know who will be the foe, since Maya finishes Leo as well
Field of Wheat and Jaguar's Den grow to 9
get FP at turn 10
we need for spears for cover, we are a little stretched due to expansion
Construction due in 2, we can then slow a little with techs and get growth in fringe towns, there is still a lot of irrigation
and clearing to be done

settled 11 new towns, 3 more settlers on the way (one is on a hill to settle on the spot)

the north
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4350a.jpg

the core
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4350b.jpg

I forgot to mention, we have 880g in the kitty (now +6gpt due to research)

A. wait for civs to contact us, so the GL gives us more tech and we can amass some coin for upgrades.
For sure.

B. research currency and construction ASAP, or our economy will be pretty pathetic, defeating the purpose of A
My bad - I thought we already had them. :blush: Too many games going at once. We want markets & ducts asap.


settled 11 new towns

Now that's rapid growth! :thumbsup:

Don't forget, the agricultural Aztecs get 2 food from irrigated desert. :D

Yeah, the food from deserts is my favorite part of AGR. Too bad we likely won't be seeing rails this game (unless it pops from the GL :eek:), then you can make extra food from deserts.

BTW, the wait for contact strategy could have one downside - if we're facing a runaway civ, there'll be no second civ to get GL techs from.

We can eventually go investigating ourselves if we get bored. I would prefer to have our continent completely filled with cities and basics Infra (library and Market, Courthouse if needed, Aquaduct if needed) in our core before we explore however.

It is unlikely that a single civ will be excedingly advanced while the rest won't give us any techs at all this early in the game. On the other hand, if we get a message about a civ dying, we may reconsider.

One thing to also consider if we meet a civ. We could buy contacts with all civs on the same turn if they have PP. That would maximize our tech.

Greebley
TheRat - Just played
Barbslinger - Tell us when you are able to play again
Bezhukov - Up
Handy900 - On Deck if no Barbslinger yet
Bed_head7 -

Got it. Not feeling so hot, so may be tomorow.

Sorry I didn't have the time for a detailed report - mostly a builder turn, though the Maya came calling at the end of the set, with a Caravel dropping off a longbow, mace, and settler. We lost a horse to the mace, but our army finished them off. Traded WM, so we can see the world - including a passage to Greece that a galley can survive. Our lone galley is poised to do just that next turn, if we want to make the second contact at this point.

This all happened a bit earlier than I anticipated, so our troops are thin, but lots of infra should complete soon and free us up for troops. Several temples are building for culture expansions, but can be changed, if needed. I moved the city in our northwest core so it can reach the fish, and Gold on a Hill can also be abandoned when its settler completes, as it works no useful tiles that other cities can't reach.

Our far-flung cities concentrated on growth and building workers, so some should be ready for specialist duty soon. Brought a work crew home to the core to mine mountains. There is a worker in Fields who can join next turn so that Fields can get to his optimal pop, working the mined mountain nearby.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4-450AD.JPG

BTW, aqueducts are cheap for us (AGR), so can go a little higher on the build queue. Might not be a good idea to contact the Greeks, as they could be behind on tech. The Incas built Copes, so they are also advanced.

Can we buy communications? An alternative strategy is to wait until we can if the alternative is to meet a dweeby civ.

I got it. May get to play tonight, but if not tomorrow for sure.

Preturn:
Antioch looks like a nice kill zone. It has gems to attract the AI and it is close to the sea passage. I’ll empty the city of its garrison and see if the AI will focus landings in that one area.

Start moving garrison units in the interior cities to the coastal cities. Want Antioch to be the only empty coastal city.

Hire some specialists to get us from 139 to 172 gold with all cities pulling at least 2 extra fpt.

I’m going to see how bad the attacks are before I start switching builds. We can handle the usual AI size landing. Mayan ships are probably still out exploring.

IBT
River Bend – Market – horse.
Hill by the Sea – market – horse
Tamunin – duct – court

Turn 1 460
Meet the backward Greeks. They have dyes. No techs and no contacts to buy so we declare and move on. I hope they send us leader fodder.

IBT
Fields of Wheat Library – Horse

Turn 2 470
:sleep:

Turn 3 480
I don’t expect the Mayans here on my turns. Maybe the next 10 will see them.

IBT
Jag Den – HE – going to build 1 turn spears for MP from here.
Lots of workers built.
Mayans finish Magellan’s Voyage
If you don’t have map stat you’ll want it for this game.

Turn 4 490
Hire one scientist because I just can’t stand research totally at zero. Character flaw.

IBT
Den – spear MP – spear MP
Copan finishes JS Bach for the Mayans
Squeeze 20spt out of Fields of wheat.

Turn 5 500
We can build 1 turn spear MP in 2 cities now. Building galleys in 1 city and courts in the rest of the coastal cities.

Turn 6 510
:sleep:

Turn 7 520
Mayans choose to land at TwixtSeas , which is closer to their shores. Crusader, LB and MI versus a lone spear. We may lose the city and then have to win it back.
Extra spears are called in from nearby cities. Maybe walls will hold.

IBT
Spear defeats LB and MI but falls to Crusader. We hold the city and off the offending unit with an army. Then I empty the town of garrison to invite more attacks. It is a good kill zone and our cats are on the way there.

Turn 8 530
Galley sets up for suicide run to Rome in the hopes we can pull Chivalry from over there.

Turn 9
-

Turn 10 550
Mayans pull up in a boat but do not land. I suppose they are waiting for their special spot next turn.

NOTES:
If we don not want to meet Rome, turn the suicide galley around if it survives.
We probably can fight the Maya since they appear to enjoy landing in the kill zone. Be sure to keep TwixtSeas empty as bait. Cats will be on the scene there soon.
You can build 1 turn cats in either 20spt city if you so choose. They are currently pumping spears for MP.
You can MM as much as you want. Governors place new citizens in corrupt cities onto the wrong tiles (hills & forest). You can redirect to food or hire specialists. Watch growth in corrupt cities or you will riot. Mapstat can help you avoid this.
I let Gold by the Lake live since it has fresh water and will get to size 7 with no need for a duct. It has some marginal use as a specialist city and settler builder.
Mining the Mountain at cow should pull 15spt for 2 turn galleys
Horsies on a Hill can work some mountains but it needs irrigation first. Lots to do in the second tier cities. Nice place to join workers to that come from the hinterlands.
Put Hill on the Sea back on the fish after the duct is finished.

probably lots more but Bed_Head can figure it out. :lol:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR04_killzone.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR04_galley.JPG

I have it, and will probably have it up within six hours.

I have it, and will probably have it up within six hours.

With some luck you'll get some leaders from the Mayans. :D

I would contact the AI's now, we can't sit forever there and wait for Maya to launch into space. We need to be able to travel the seas.

I would contact the AI's now, we can't sit forever there and wait for Maya to launch into space. We need to be able to travel the seas.

yeah, our economy is rocking. We could get Feud in 5 if we wanted to. We were kicking +203 gpt I think on the last turn of my set with bank of 2500.

Contact now sounds good to me as well. Remember to check if the new civ we meet has printing press. If they do we may want to buy contact with everyone.

If we could pull off meeting the "hittite colored civ" (bluish teal), they probably have better tech.

Incas built Copes and Sistine, if I recall correctly - you can check F7 to confirm.

Incas built Copes and Sistine, if I recall correctly - you can check F7 to confirm.

Inca do have have Copes but it was Rome that built ToA and Sistine.

550 AD (0) - Fire a couple taxmen to get faster growth. Less money now, but we make it up in the end, and there is always the chance of grabbing an uncorrupted commerce.

IT - Lose the galley at sea.

560 AD (1) - Kill the Mayan landing, a horse promote to elite. I think I'll try to prep Greece invasion.

590 AD (4) - Apparently, the AI bought contact, as suddenly we can talk to the Hittites, Inca, and Romans. Declare on them all. We should shoot up pretty far in techs, as Inca and Rome had Navigation as well.

IT - http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_600AD_techs.jpg

600 AD (5) - We have saltpeter. The one and only source of saltpeter I can find outside of our territory is owned by the Incans. I counted five on our continent.

Had 8-10 elite wins without a leader, so maybe the next player will get it. Carefully monitor progress on Metallurgy, as settlers and workers completing drops it down a turn after the scientists are fired, so more taxmen have to be switched over. Only three turns left on it, then Military Tradition, so we should have cavalry really soon.

There are some caravels up near Greece (weird seeing them Orange, but I guess that is what happens with Hittites and Persians in a game and no Dutch or English), and a few units by TwixtSeas. We still have 3000+ gold, so we can upgrade some spearmen to musketmen for the invasion. Our military is fairly small, but if the AI continue to land at the one spot an invasion should be manageable. Just not with one musketman. I didn't do as much towards the invasion as I wanted, oh well.

I got it


Greebley - Up
TheRat - On Deck
Barbslinger
Bezhukov
Handy900
Bed_head7 - Just Played

Sorry for the sparse report. They are working us hard at work.

Preturn: Switch to taxmen to scientists since they get the tech earlier and are 3 instead of 2 per turn.

Early: Our second Elite victory gives us a leader (will be Knight Army).

Mid: Land in Greek Lands.

Late: Continue to gather troops in Greece. Kill 2 hopolites.

Notes: Landing were all near Twixt the Seas. Nothing we couldn't handle even without the Armies help.

got it, tomorrow

You were able to get Metallurgy down another turn? Wow. I got it from 10 to 7 (or was it 11 to 8) switching taxmen to scientists, and figured it would go no further.

For the more corruput towns that needed a clown, I used 2 scientists instead. This slows growth, but given that those towns have happiness problems, this is generally ok. I also hired some scientists in size 6 towns with no aquaduct.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_850AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
as usual need to reassign tiles due to shield emphasis

IT get landings by 8 units
Greek send 4 units to try and reinforce Corinth

1. 760AD
leaderfishing is not sucessful but we clear all 8 units without a loss and promote new Cav to elite
feel we better take Corinth now, attack and kill 7 units inside and we take town
take out a Greek galley but lose a caravel

IT wow, maybe it was a mistake to keep Corinth, a lot of unit approach

2. 770AD
better luck this time as leader fishing while killing 5 landings creates and army

IT there are a zillion units approaching Corinth, now way we can hold it for now, but we survive IT at least and didn't lose army

3. 780AD
kliing 3 untis at home and abandon Corinth

4 790AD
reduce science to 0%, still get physics in 1 due to all the scientists

IT magnetism is next in 7

5 .800AD
army filled with 2 cavs on the way to Greek Island
assign more scientists and magnetism is in 6
take out 4 units covering a settler in greek land

6.810BC
magnetism now in 4 :)
3 leader fishes don't give us a leader

7. 820AD
rest units in greek land, Cav army arrived

8. 830BC
defeat another settler combo in greek land
defeat 3 units in homeland, no leader

IT since Cav army approached Mycynea, now the Greek send a lot of units there. we shoud exploit that later with more armies

9. 840AD
cav army Mycenea get reinforced by 2 Cav's knight army stack with arty advances to Sparta

IT Greek units rush into Mycynea
Magnetism is in, next ToG

10.850AD
adjust some scientists and ToG in 5


as for Greece, there are simply too many units, we might want to send over more muskets or once we have rifles. establish a beachhead
and burn their units with a defensive army?
I split the 2 armies so that AI gets confused as to where to send their units
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr4850.jpg

Nice. :D It may be easier to just raze cities in Greece for now and resettle later. As the city count drops Alex has less free unit support and things get easier as we go. A few muskets on a hill with walls is a good way to make the AI burn thru their offensive units, but you want to make sure you can withstand the assaut. Enough Attack 4's versus even muskets on a hill with walls will eventually kill the muskets.

Probably the best bet for now is to raze and resettle later. We are going to need some more artillery for the rest of this game. A few cannon and a cav army can steamroll even rifles. The cannon will create nice leader chanches in Greece with cav versus wounded hops. :goodjob:

Greebley
TheRat - Just Played
Barbslinger - tell us when you are back
Bezhukov - Up
Handy900 - On Deck
Bed_head7

Got it, will play this weekend.

IBT: bizarre, bazillion Greek units mill about, then an archer takes a shot at our Cav army, taking off three hp. Not sure what the plan is up in Greece. May attempt to sneak around to the north now that all units are in the south.

860: Kill hittite AC at Twixt. Upgrade some cats to cannon.

IBT: Maya completes Smiths

870: Move Cav army under cover of knight army to attack sparta next turn.

IBT: Mayans land next to Twixt. Inca get Shakes.

880: reg cavalry tries to promote (who produced that? Ah, horsies on a hill gets a late rax), wins but is still regular. Elite Knight nearby wins, generating MGL – Mil Academy in his future. Coming up next turn in Jag Den.

Join several native workers. Raze Sparta as brilliant Alex has only 3 of his 30 odd hoplites in the vicinity in the actual city.

IBT: Another archer takes a shot at our army. Mil Academy completes in Jag Den. Pentagon in 3 in Fields.

We get ToG, Steam in 11.

890:zzz

IBT: 4 Hittite AC’s and a Mayan Knight land at Twixt.

900: Vet Musket and Reg Cav promote on invasion, Elite Horse dies.

IBT: Pentagon completes.Inca LB lands.

910:get another elite musket from invasion. Take a turn at zero sci for upgrade funding – we still get Steam in 13 just from specialists! Unit costs down to 9 per turn from worker joins. Argus is razed.

IBT: 2 Hittite MDIs land.

920: Another elite musket. Elite muskets heading up to Greece. Several artillery upgraded, and caravels to galleons. Horse armies to greece to pick up a musket and cover cav/knight armies.

IBT: Mayans drop off a rifle by Twixt :eek:

930: Rifle eats cannonballs. LB yields another leader from horsie. Makes army.

IBT: Another rifle, LB land.

940: Single cav in army gets promotion on LB.

IBT: Same old at Twixt.

950: Horse Army with musket headed to disconnect Greek horses. Rest of army headed to raze Athens.

The Galleon with trebs is bringing them home for upgrades. Next player can add musket to second horse army, or Cav if preferred.

The bombard damage near Twixt is my :smoke:

I want to remind everyone that we may not want to put forth units in armies until we invade the second continent. Otherwise they will be stuck on the land mass until Transports.

I want to remind everyone that we may not want to put forth units in armies until we invade the second continent. Otherwise they will be stuck on the land mass until Transports.yes, the Greek land is too irrelevant to let our armies rest there until we eventually get transports. we might want to have a 4 Cav army for homeland defense maybe, but leave the rest at 3 units.

I wouldn't use a cav army for defense. We will have rails soon and don't need a cav army after that. Pick a weaker (knight?) army if we want one for defense.

I'll probably get to this Monday. :D

Real life has intervened and I can't play tonight (Monday). :(

Greebley - swap me if you want or wait. Your call. :D

I got home late so I will wait.

I only created one 4-unit army - I put a musket in a horse army to use it as cover for the Greek invasion. The other horse army is there, but I waited to add a unit to let the next player decide what to use it for. I expect we'll have more armies than we know what to do with, so I wouldn't worry too much about our obsolete horse armies getting stuck in Greece. Having a cover army allows our cav armies to raze cities and then heal while in enemy territory without fear of attack.

I agree horse armies or sword armies can be 4 units. I definitely want to keep Cav armies 3 or fewer units as well as all (or at least most) of the knight armies.

Defense 3 armies can do well on the other continent. Less than that and they are not as useful.

That's why I put the musket in the horse army (I think the army gets effective defense five), so the AI won't attack it and it can be used to cover the offense armies and cavs attacking cities. There is another musket up there that can be added to the other horse army. Also three elite muskets on their way to Port of War that can be used for decent cover once we pillage Greek horses.

We can use Twixt to leader fish as well, and should be able to generate several cav armies for the main continent invasion. Once we get rifles (and perhaps industrialization), may make sense to accumulate some cash for upgrades. I started a bank in cow pasture - would like to go for commerce in core coastal cities.

Pre turn
Upgrade a couple of vet knights.
Turn a few nerds into tax babes to pick up a little gold and still get Rails in 4. For some reason I enjoy playing the scientist to tax game to get fastest research with the most gold. How boring is that!
What is so attractive about Twitxseas?

IBT
Mayans drop rifle @ Twist and the Greeks and Inca also drop units.

Turn 1 960
Bump research rails in 2 +20gpt
Kill the offensive invading units and position armies at Athens.

Turn 2 970
Raze Athens and drop off more artillery

IBT
Steam – Industry – we have 1 coal

Turn 3 980
Position to take down the new Greek capital. Then I think we can settle the hill next to the dyes and repel and Greek offensive there. Dyes would help a lot.
MM to get Industry in 9 +20gpt.

IBT

Turn 4 990
Get leader at Twix, build army as I always do just in case and sure enough, we get
another leader. Two in a row!
New personal record!, an elite cavalry in Greece offs a LB escorting a settler and produces leader number three.
Three elite hits in a row. :dance:
The third leader will have to journey home to be turned into an army
The Greeks are not happy about this at all.

IBT
What is up with Twixt? Even the Romans sail all the way to land there.
Alex decides to reinforce the key pop 1 town of Ephesus. :rolleyes:
Maya meanwhile are getting serious as they drop a stack of rifle, pike, 2MI, LB, knight and crusader.
I’m going to build Frigates so we can sink the Mayan boats. We can leader farm off the backward civs and try to shell and sink the Mayans before they land.

Turn 5 1000
Kill all the Mayans.

IBT

Turn 6 1010
Kill Mayan rifle, LB, Knight

IBT
Twitx is getting a lot of action. I’m going to keep a cav army there to deal with it until we get some more cannon and Cav. Greece is folding easily now.

Turn 7 1020
Industry in 5 +0gpt is the best I can do.
Kill a bunch no losses no leaders.
I remember losing only 1 this set in the attack on the city we razed after Athens

IBT
Greek galley attacks a Galleon. Don’t remember ever seeing that before.
Inca have nationalism now.

Turn 8 1030
Kill some Mayans. No leaders

Turn 9 1040
Capture Mycenae which has silks and a harbor and is on a hill. Let’s keep it for 1 turn.
We settle the other Dye hill where we have defensive forces next turn.
Drop lux to zero.

IBT
Maya start Universal Suffrage


Turn 10 1050
Settle Dyes by the Sea
Raze Ephesus
Abandon Mycenae


Notes:
I hired a bunch of tax people since we get Industry in one so we make +383 gpt this turn. Should be 1 extra beaker guy to be safe.
Next turn set all people back to science and then turn a few at a time to tax people to see where the break point is.
There is a 3 cav army in Sugar and Sand Near Twitxseas that is homeland defense. One you accumulate some cav the army can be shipped overseas. It is needed at home currently.
There are four 3-cav armies in Greece plus a knight army. We could either:
Finish off Greece with a cav army blitz (no cannon just blow thru Greece with armies). OR
Use one 3-cav and the 3-knight army to finish Greece and immediately ship other three
3-cav armies over to bang on the Mayans asap. As soon as you accumulate some cav in our homelands you can ship the homeland defense army over to the Mayans also. Then once in Mayan lands we could add a 4th cav to each army and bang on the Mayans with four 4-cav armies.
Don’t forget to rush the harbor in Dyes by the Sea after the walls so we get out 4th lux.
You can use the ships to chain a slave over to rush the harbor if you desire.
If we can hurt the Mayans to slow their research and rush a factory somewhere we can probably bag ToE.

Do we need rifles to win this? 4-cav armies should be safe from attack if fully healed until tanks. A musket army could cover them until we get infantry if we are worried. Just make sure 1 army in the attack stack is fully healed at all times.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dyes_GR04.JPG



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tech_GR04.JPG

Got it. I am inclined to finish off Greece ASAP and then head after the Mayans. I probably will not play tonight (though it is possible). Any other opinions?

Got it. I am inclined to finish off Greece ASAP and then head after the Mayans. I probably will not play tonight (though it is possible). Any other opinions?

I thought about this some more, and I agree finishing Greece is the correct play. Maybe even send the artillery under the armies back to Dyes by the Sea to bomb units if any attack the newly settled city. With no cannon to slow them down, the stack of armies can rapidly finish Greece. As long as one cav army remains fully healed at all times the Greeks won't attack the stack of cav armies. The Greeks did not have very large garrisons in any of their small cities, and the most they had in a large city was 6 or 7 hops IIRC. Probably fewer than that now in their cities now. Cav armies rip thru hops pretty fast.

Maybe leave the knight army in Greece after they are all killed to off any settlers as they arrive to the now empty Greek lands.

I'm kind of interested in your opinions on going for ToE. I think we have a decent shot. Communism is a tech we could really use. So, do we follow the path to ToE first then grab nationalism & commie, or go for ToE & grab Replaceable Parts and then research to commie? Probably going for Commie. What do you all think?

agree with you handy, we should try secure ToE and go for communism, that would also allow us for steals if ever needed.

and by the way, congratulations for 3 MGL's in one go, hattrick in soccer terms :goodjob:
never seen that (can you do that in HNDY14 as well, it is needed badly there ;) )

I'd like to grab RP ASAP for faster workers (rails) and Infantry for easing landing on the continent. We can research Commie in due time.

Excellent leadership, handy! :thumbsup:

My order would be RP (for Infantry and Artillery), TOE, Communism/Espionage.

Dealing with the Greeks first seems a good plan to me.

Well, I am glad to hear all of that. I ended up playing five turns last night, and finished off the Greeks on my fourth turn. Started Electricity, and had every plan of researching towards Replaceable Parts.

congratulations for 3 MGL's in one go, hattrick in soccer terms :goodjob:
never seen that (can you do that in HNDY14 as well, it is needed badly there ;) )

It was pretty amazing. I've made two leaders on the same turn twice before but never three in a single turn. :D And it was three attacks in a row. Boom, boom, boom. It really pays off to go ahead and build the army from a leader before you attack again on the same turn.

I hope Dyes by the Sea in the Greek lands does not screw up the AI's willingness to land leader fodder at TwixtSeas.

Twixtseas is a text book kill zone for us. :goodjob:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1090AD_greeks.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1150AD_lutetia.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1150AD_ruins.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1150AD_palenque.jpg

Created two armies, one is empty and on the way back to the mainland, one is full of cavalry and on the way to the Mayans. I lost our horse army on the attack to an archer that landed in the old Greeks lands. I think it had 9/14hp too, but oh well, the archer was on a hill. The new land might have screwed up the kill zone thing a bit, so we may not want to bother. I don't really know. I didn't make a big effort to fill in up there.

We got electricity on my last turn, started Replaceable Parts, but no research done so we can go Medicine -> [ToE tech whose name is escaping me].

One question to handy. What was going on with workers? There were some odd groupings, and few had exactly six workers in them.

By the way, we killed ~8 rifles in Palenque and it didn't fall. Almost lost one of the cav armies when it went from 13hp to 1hp before finishing off the rifle there.

[IMG] What was going on with workers? There were some odd groupings, and few had exactly six workers in them.


I was moving them in chain gangs to build rails. I'd move however many it took to rail a tile, then move however many it took to rail the next tile. I always move them one worker at a time. Moving them one at a time allows workers to ride the newly created rails and you get max rails down per turn with no wasted worker movement. In other words, I only move as many as I need to rail a particular tile. Hills take more workers. Perhaps there was a mix of slaves and workers that was giving the odd counts.

First thing I did was connect the capital to the harbor town where we set sail for Greece.

Next I connected core cities to the rail.

Then I started rails around the core at the same time I was raling the the far corners of the empire.

Some workers were waaaaaaay out in the nether reaches of the empire when we learned rails. Instead of walking them all the way home, they just started rails where they were.

I think I was pretty efficient, but I'm all ears if there is a better way.

By the way, we killed ~8 rifles in Palenque and it didn't fall. Almost lost one of the cav armies when it went from 13hp to 1hp before finishing off the rifle there. Once we get cannon over there to support the armies we should be able to raze the Mayans pretty fast with that many armies.

Oh, okay, it was just curious. In one place there was equal to 5.5 workers on the tile, meaning it was maximum inefficiency for a flat tile. What I generally do in the age of railroading is make groups of six, with a slave of course counting as a half a worker. No waste there, and it gets the rails down in one turn, and probably also goes faster once you get it set up since you can move the workers as a group, so you only have to move the workers once per tile instead of having to move each worker over.

Ok, I got it. Hope to play tonight.

Preturn: Things Look good. I do hire a few more scientists (replace the one entertainer with two scientists). Basically I sort by shields generated, go to the towns generating only one or two and look for towns with +5 food and see if I want to hire another scientist. This plus raising Science 10% more allows us to get RP in one less turn. I also can't resist upgrading the 2 vet and one Elite* horsemen I see.

It is good to see the Greeks gone :D I will work on filling the island to get our %land up.

Also decide this is a good time to get our factories up and running. I switch any town that can build a factory in 20 turn or less.

IBT: Whoops. Some workers are slaughtered by Barbarians on the Greeks old island.
Minor Landings.

1160 AD: Kill the landings. Armies rest. Concentrate the workers more on finishing improving our non-corrupt core before irrigating the hinterlands first. That gives more shields as opposed to more scientists.

IBT: Maya Knight attacks our Army on the Mainland.

1170 AD: Kill a Hittite Longbow on the Greek Island. Kill 2 rifles in Palenque.

IBT: 4 Mayans and 4 Inca land on our Island. A longbow attacks our Armies.

1180 AD: We are only killing a few rifles every turn In Palenque and the enemy is reinforcing.

IBT: No landings.

1190 AD: Kill some Barbarians in the north. Start to send the 4 cav for our armies overseas.

1200 AD: Kill a few more Rifles in Palenque.

1210 AD: Capture Palenque. It has Magellaen's so it would be nice to keep. May not be able to. I will have to see what shows up.
Kill 4 landed units.

1220 AD: Kill incoming units.

IBT: We get Rep Parts. Start Medicine for TOE.

1230 AD: Kill More incoming units (toward Palenque)

IBT:

1240 AD: and more incoming units,

1250 AD: and more incoming units.

Accidentally hit end of turn, but don't move any units for turn 1255 AD.

Notes:
I have been shrinking Palenque as fast as I can. It needs a temple rushed to bring the land under its control.

As soon as we kept Palenque, the Hittites and Mayans have been sending units at us. We have been killing them so far. The armies have been mostly out of the town. Not sure if we are small enough to allow armies to stay in town or not. It is size 4 but has many squares around it that are Mayan so need that temple. I did risk at least 1 army a turn. Again I am not sure it was wise

ok, got it, I guess there will be no more landings in our killing zone (or at least far less), since we own a town there now.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1300AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
well, no preturn

1. 1255AD
found city in northern ex geece only to reveal 4 hittites units, take out 3 to snag the settler underneath
defense in ex Greece a little too light
all armies are within Palenque, hope we don't have such a high flip risk
rush walls there
attack and take out Bonampak netting us 578g
increase science to get medicine in 4

IT we repell the attacks at Palenque,
jaguar's Den goes for ToE prebuild

2.1260AD
clearing more units, rush temple in Palenque

3. 1265AD
start to preapre to raze Chichen itza, defeat 4 units there
create MGL -> army

4 .1270AD
after taking out 9 units in Chichen Itza
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr41270.jpg
try and keep town though now a high flip risk, connect palenque and Chichen itza via rails

IT attacking units abandon attack on Palenque and turn towards Chichen
we get medicine, scientific methods next

5. 1275AD
goo delays Fields of Wheat infantry, change to coal plant
remove armies from Chichen in case of a flip, we have 3 infantry inside for defense

IT oh dear, a huge Roman SOD approaches Chichen ( can count around 50-60 units mainly MDI)
Incans finish US

6. 1280AD
kill 7 units in Copan, but city stands
swap Jaguars Den to army and Fields of Wheat to palace

IT zzzzz watching Roman SOD's marching round Chichen since we blocked off the access

7. 1285AD
we raze Copan and flip risk in Chichen drops to 3 %

IT due to road blocks I get some Romans to return, but the bulk approaches Palenque
resitance ends and we get walls in Chichen

8. 1290AD
the battlefield
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr41290.jpg
soften one SOD but Palenque will face 27 units

IT stupid AI, their units turn around since we opened road to Chichen

9.1295AD
soften another stack and clear units as much as we can
rush temple in Chichen

IT Romans move in again

10.1300AD
almost lose our perfectly healthy knight army attacking a 3hp guerilla :eek:
destroy Kanesh since access to the west seems somewhat blocked
kill some more Roman units and start sending out Cav armies north after forming a inf army
flip risk is now very very low
we will get scientific method next turn, would switch off research depending on prebuilt for ToE
we should go communism with so many corrupt towns, we have now 40% territory
the goo often deleays builds by a turn, very annoying

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr41300.jpg

Sounds excellent! :D

What is goo? :confused:

the goo often deleays builds by a turn, very annoying
goo delays Fields of Wheat infantry, change to coal plant

What is goo sorry wasn't clear I am refering to the beautiful concept of pollution

I would take electronics when we get TOE. Nationalism espionage and Communism is much easier to research ourselves fairly quickly (I think electronics is the most expensive tech of the industrial age). Hoover really helps and keeps down the goo quotient.

So get Electonics with TOE and build Hoover (start a prebuild).
Research Nationalism, and then Espionage.

As for Communism:

I am not sure the game is going to last long enough to make Communism important. TMcC and I used to debate this. My theory was that if you have all your improvements centered in your core, then switching to communism does not help in the short term:

In the very short term you have a period of Anarchy which is obviously worse than Monarchy.

After you switch you have lessened the cities with the factories, markets, etc. and increased the other cities. These other cities do not have improvements and may not even have Aquaducts or Markets. They are also smaller and over-irrigated. They need to build these improvements before they become viable.

Science is slowed because you have changed all the scientitsts and put them to work. Note that the non-scientist income stays about the same when you switch. This is because you are lessening income in towns with markets and adding income to cities that do not. There is thus not much of a change until you get Markets in the formerly corrupt cities. Once that happens, then communism becomes superior. However, since you lose your scientist, communism is inferior for a number of turns in terms of research.

Eventually, though the farther cities get up to speed. At this point the output for communism is superior. However, if the game is practically over at this point, there is little advantage.

---------------------
It is my opinion that this game will not last long enough to make communism a worthwhile.

@greebley.

in this game I tend to agree with you on communism. hopefully we can soon go on real raze mode once those SOD's are wiped out

We have sufficient units that I think we can raze soon. Note that we may want to consider a "funnel of doom". That term came from a SirPleb? game where the units have to pass many armies to get to their target. Each army takes a pot shot so they arrive with 1 hp.

This would be useful if there are lots of rifles. Lesser defense units can be handled just by killing them. We may not need it.

Greebley
TheRat - Just Played
Barbslinger - Haven't heard from you yet. Tell us when you are back.
Bezhukov - Up
Handy900 - On Deck
Bed_head7

Got it. Will play this weekend.

:bump: forgotten this game, bez?

No, RL just came back with a (good) vengeance. Y'know, sunshine? Interesting opposite sex member? Job? That kinda stuff. Sorry I've got to cut back on the old SG's, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. this baby's pretty well wrapped up anyway, and it looks like we have plenty of capable captains to guide her home.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

No, RL just came back with a (good) vengeance. Y'know, sunshine? Interesting opposite sex member? Job? That kinda stuff. Sorry I've got to cut back on the old SG's, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. this baby's pretty well wrapped up anyway, and it looks like we have plenty of capable captains to guide her home.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

:hmm: Not sure, but I think this means Bez is dropping and I'm up.

I'll go ahead and play, but if Bez also posts turns you can use his and skip me since I'm out of town Tuesday (4-19) and Wed (4-20). :D

Good luck Bez. Glad to have ya to this point.

I assume Bez means he cannot play any more. Go ahead and play Handy.

Greebley
TheRat -
Barbslinger - Haven't heard from you yet. Tell us when you are back.
Handy900 - Up
Bed_head7 - On Deck

Bezhukov, confirm that you retired. If life gets simple and you want back in, we can put you back into the roster.

If life were ever simple, I wouldn't have to play Civ. :)

I am indeed retired.

IBT
Fearless Hittite LB and MI launch an attack our infantry army.
Learn SM and Nationalism which we can complete before we finish the pre build.

Turn 1 1305
I turned off animation Turn it back on if you want it.
Tweak to +9 gpt.
Also start some courthouses in cities with engineers. I usually hire specialists in any size 12 city that has over 24 food. If this is a bad play let me know. :D
If we get some time there are cities with extra food we could go back and mine.
Upgrade cannon
Raze Kadesh
Mine some plains

Turn 2 1310
Raze Adana

IBT
HUGE roman SOD kills 2 infantry and redlines the infantry army. Chitchen holds and we get a leader on defense.

Turn 3 1315
Raze Incan city near the ivory.
Only a trick of attacks at

Turn 4 1320
Resting armies

Turn 5 1325
Set Continental rally point
Pop second army this set

Turn 6 1300
Research to zero since ToE is done on the IBT
Raze new Mayan Capital
Upgrade a bunch of spears and horses

Turn 7 1335
TOE selects up to electricity
Jag Den switched over to Hoover
Research to Spies
Third army appears – we now have 14 total.

1340
Red lined Roman galleon sinks two of our Frigates. :mad:
1345
Another leader

1350
Most of the armies are in Chichen healing for an assault on the incense. There is a settler under the infantry stack 1 tile inside the Mayan borders near the incense.
The attacks are down to a trickle of threes and fours so you should be able to go on offense big time. :D

Notes:
You can switch scientists to tax men for a turn & back again. It’s midnight and I was too tired to do it. 7am flight tomorrow. :(
The important worker stuff is done. I just assigned them to mountains to keep them busy and did not :lol: pay attention to efficiency this time.

** One of the armies has room for a fourth cavalry

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR04_1350bc.JPG

I have it. Probably have it up Wednesday evening.

Looks like we are in the final round of turns. I don't see the AI lasting a whole rotation of 40/50 turns.

It is 1390 AD. Nothing happened that couldn't already be guessed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1390AD_minimap.jpg

I assume we wanted conquest again, but do we want to play on to marines?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr4_1390AD.jpg

We are at 50% land. With some quick settler pumping, we could be at domination in about 3-4 turns without a problem. Do we want to do that? I don't really want to play on to Amphibious Warfare.

By the way, I had planned to have the game just about wrapped up by 1400 AD. As a result, empire management suffered a bit.

Do you have the "barbarian fix"? It also makes the AI move units around. You can also try bombarding a unit it might go into town.

[Edit: If my idea(s) don't work, I am perfectly ok with domination. I don't want to wait for marines. Killing off all but that island and then getting domination is close enough to conquest for me as well.

Domination is okay by me. While I like conquest, waiting around for marines is boring. :sleep:

This game was a lot of fun, and well played by the team. Good map, good play. :bounce:

Actually, I guess I am up. I will try my suggestions and see if I can get conquest. Otherwise it will be Domination.

Do you have any plans for a GR05?

greebley, just finish it with domination, it's alright. we don't need to wait for amphibious attacks.

Do you have any plans for a GR05?yes, good question since it seems GR AW games are somewhat special. the last 2 were relatively easily won (of course we a good team ;) )

I would like to try winning demigod without choosing the best of 4 starts. My thought was to choose one with a good looking initial start (probably cows), but make the choice based on the 4000 BC save rather than 50 turns in.

What Civ would ppl like to play with?

What Civ would ppl like to play with?[/QUOTE]

Portugal for their excellent UU and awesome AW traits. :lol:

Really I don't care.

I think I may need to pass if the next game starts up soon. For the next three weeks, I am in AP testing heaven. Practice tests between now and the real ones in all of my classes, and then the real thing(s) in a week and a half.

bedhead, just sit out for 3 weeks and then rejoin. look at me, my schedule isn't that much better now.

as for the idea, it sounds really good. any Civ would do, maybe those 2 last games were too easy.

Preturn: We can optimize our core cities better. Not really important, but I do it anyway. I switch around ownership of squares and replace Irrigation with Mines for towns that have too much food (wake all the workers).

IBT: A Galleon of our is sank.

1395 AD: Capture Vilcabamba (Incan), Hispalis(Roman). Auto-destroy some new Incan town. Bombard the island we couldn't land on.

IBT: Cumae deposes us. Bombarding the blocked island worked. The unit retreats into the city to heal.

1400 AD: Capture Cumae (Roman), Vilcas (Incan Capitol), Pisae (Roman)
Land some units on the now unblocked island.

1405 AD: Capture Ravena (Roman), Vitcos (Incan) which clears the other main continent.

1410 AD: Starting Island Assaults:
Capture Arequippa (Incan), and Calkamul (Mayan on the big island).

1415 AD: Capture an Island town I forgot to note the name of.

1420 AD: Capture Ica [Last Incan city - they have a settler], and a Hittite island town.

1425 AD: Capture Viroconium
Romans Destroyed!
Capture Emar (Hittite).

IBT: Lose Twixt for a turn due to not paying attention.

1430 AD: Capture Hubishna and Alaca Huyuk. Hittites have no more cities either.

1435 AD: Incans landed a settler. They are destroyed when I kill it.

1440 AD:
Destroy some Hittite Galleons and the Hittites have been destroyed.

1445 AD:
Capture the last Mayan city.

We win by Conquest. (Domination would have been a bit faster, BTW).

Notes:
It was interesting that the Bombardment did in fact work in terms of allowing us to land on the island.

With the early settler, I think we could have won this on Deity.

excellent job!!!

won with ease, not even as tough as GR3...is deity next?

Excellent job!!!

won with ease, not even as tough as GR3...is deity next?

This seemed easy for DG, but we played well with a great setup.
The early extra settler
The early horse army
No iron for Persia or Russia.
Easy access to lux and iron for us.
Ag civ with lots of food and water.

Just about a perfect match of map + civ + good players. :D

Diety or DG is okay by me. The key the DG & above AW SG's we've won seems to be early access to an attack army and easy acess to iron & lux. The bowman army in the Babylon (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=102933&page=1&pp=20) AWDG Pangaea game was very powerful, although in that game I think the AI were at war with each other a lot. In the AWS Sumeria (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95052) win, it was an early archer army. Sumeria was also the game where Greebley Invented the Sumerian Suppression strategy of parking a spear on a mountain near a city to get Cathy to whip her towns.

Another interesting game might be a wonderless Monarch or Emperor where we are not allowed to build any iron based units, or no defensive units or something like that. If we play no defense, we'll need easy access to the math tech path. Not sure AWE is winnable with no defensive units allowed.

With regard to civ - I don't recall ever playing Japan in AW.

interesting thought Handy, a variant seems interesting, Japan too. let's hear what greebley has to say

By the way Handy, I was reading multiplayer civ and the Sumerian Suppression was one of the four primary strategies. I forget what they call it, but it was interesting seeing it in that context. I have never tried multiplayer, but I could see it being useful in those fast civ games (as compared to the epic ones). It also told how to counter it. The AI should read the article :D

Agree this start was an extremely good one. I will probably start the next game tomorrow.

So far Handy, and ThERat have shown interest.

Good luck with the AP's Bead_head. I remember taking those long ago.

Good luck with the AP's Bead_head. I remember taking those long ago.

Thanks. I think I have an easy 5 on U.S. Gov, Biology, and English Lit. I haven't done much work towards passing Stats and Calculus BC, which are only offered independent study, and then there is Spanish, where I will definitely need some luck. I suppose it doesn't matter all that much though, as I can probably already graduate from Berkeley in three years with the AP credit I already have, and I doubt I'll be getting out of any math classes even with AP credit if I go for a math/science related major.

I had a chance to start Gr5. Here is the link. I chose Persia.

Gr5 - Persian AW Demigod, Continents on a standard map (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117340)


Bed_head, I was the opposite. I knew I could make Math and Bio and Chem, but US History was pretty doomed (I got a 3). The math got me out of Freshman calculus which I was glad of. I was a math/comp sci double major.

Thanks. I think I have an easy 5 on U.S. Gov, Biology, and English Lit. I haven't done much work towards passing Stats and Calculus BC, which are only offered independent study, and then there is Spanish, where I will definitely need some luck. I suppose it doesn't matter all that much though, as I can probably already graduate from Berkeley in three years with the AP credit I already have, and I doubt I'll be getting out of any math classes even with AP credit if I go for a math/science related major.

WOW. :eek: I only took two AP tests. Biology and
- you won't believe this one after reading my SG posts -
English. :rotfl:

Math? Forget about it. Math is hard. :crazyeye:

It is my lazy nature and the fact that both Calc BC and Stats are independant study that has me in trouble, not an aversion to math. The AB test was easier than most of the tests I had to take in the class throughout the year. I actually do pretty well in everything, it just depends on motivation to work. Though I guess I have had to work a little harder to get some subjects than others. I slept through AP Chem and got a 5, but I had to work more than I am used to having to work to get a 4 on both parts of the Physics C test last year.

As someone with some experience with testing out of college subjects I will chip in my $0.02.
Calc BC is usually worth Calc 1 or someplaces calc 1 and 2 credit. Varies by school.
I have not seen a science or engineering school accept any AP physics, except to let people out of remedial physics. (I have a Physics degree, AP has nothing to do with "real" physics, not that I am doing that anyway)
A very nice version of testing out of humanities is CLEP testing. College Level Exam Placement. There are some very nice study guides out there. If your prospective school accepts CLEP tests, I would take them. No essays, 90 minutes, multiple choice, computer based tests. They cost ~$75 bucks per test. You only get 1 shot, but if you aced classes like you say, then you should have no trouble. I know CLEP is accepted by South Dakota and Minnesota state schools, and I believe Wisconsin as well.
EDIT: BERKELEY ACCEPTS CLEP RESULTS
Link to More Info (http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/clep/exams.html)
I can give you info on certain books to read before testing. They are really fun and easy tests. :crazyeye:
On the Western Civ 1 test I had to match regions with their religions. I think that England is Russian Orthodox, and Russia has Anglicism as their respective majority religion bases. :lol:
Just a little FYI.

Thanks for the info. I hadn't ever really seen/heard anything about CLEPs before. If they are as easy as you make them out to be, I doubt I would have any problem. Once I get a better look at some of the introductory courses that will required, I'll see about taking some CLEPs.

I am not at all surprised though that AP Physics doesn't get credit at most schools. I knew surprisingly little and still managed a 4 on the Mechanics and E and M portions of the Physics C test. Even if I did get any credit, I would want to take a lower level class, since skipping straight to Physics C didn't really help my understanding of physics. Skipping to something past the level of that class would be completely pointless.

I would not take remedial physics. Jump straight into "normal" physics.
After having taught both of them, remedial and "normal" physics, the difference is that "normal" physics requires you to use calculus 3-5 times in the semester.
At my school we have physics 111, and physics 211. 211 is "normal" and 111 is remedial. AP gets you out of 111, or there is a locally administered test that gets you out of 111. 111 doesn't count for an engineering/science degree, and I recommend that no one takes it that can avoid it. Caveat: I got a C in reg physics, progressed to Quantum, E&M, and the "higher" level physics and aced em. I think the low grade was due to system shock of 1st semseter college.
Than you go on to quantum mechanics, and classical mechanics and realize that no one really knows what is happening.

I didn't mean to say that I would take anything remedial. Instead, I should have said that even if AP credit got me out of the "normal" course, it would probably be best to take the "normal" course anyway.

Are you sure that Berkeley gives credit for passing CLEP exams? I checked the College Board, and it seemed like Berkeley did not give any credit.

This is what I used (http://apps.collegeboard.com/cbsearch_clep/searchCLEPCollegeResults.jsp?searchCategory_state= 5&searchdb_city=&DBACTION=SEARCH&x=29&y=6)
It appears that I searched by City name rather than university. Silly me.
I saw Cal State locations on the list, and I assumed that they would be accepted everywhere in the state college network.
It might be worth a call to the Admissions office at Cal, and see what the official policy is. Sorry for any misleading info

Not a problem at all. I appreciate all of the Physics-related stuff you've already told me. And it is not like I have already changed my college plans based on what you told me about CLEP exams.

One other thing to consider:

I really liked college - not so much for the education, but rather for the social aspects. I ended up going for two majors and two minors in 4 years rather than trying to finish in 3 years. Your own tastes may differ - some ppl hate college. It is something to consider however. Basically, I enjoyed learning stuff and having my friends living down the hall. I ended up staying an extra year to get a masters degree as well since everyone else was still around.

So maybe 3 years will work well for you, but I would keep your options open in case you find a great group of friends and don't really want to leave a year early.