COTM11 - Korea

Korea was requested, Korea it is :D
And what more could you ask for: a rich start, an easy Regent game... ;)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/cotm11large.jpg

Civilization: Korea
Opponents: 7 preselected
World Size: Standard, 4 billions
Characteristics: (nominally) Pangaea, 60% ocean
Climate: Warm, Arid
Barbarians: Sedentary
Difficulty: Regent

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/cotm11mini.jpg

Well, I'm looking forward to playing it.

No fresh water by the looks, and it seems we're on the end of a narrow peninsula. For me, settling options are NE or SE on the hills. Concern is that this will result in a capital on the edge of the empire - not ideal (although I'll jump it later anyway). As a random thought, I might actually consider the hill to the NNE - this will allow one or two cities to the south, sharing the cow and game in a nice ICS.

60% ocean? Makes me think that we are either on a very long peninsula, or we're on a short-one, cut-off by (say) greeks or carthage or something else with a strong early defender....

And what more could you ask for:
If we are dreaming how about fresh water just under FoW.

starting region seems to be very productive... a good place for 20k again. :)

Korea is on a peninsula. No surprise here.
As for the settling position, I have an intention to travel north. It is a regent game, so no worry about giving AI an extra time (even on predator). I may settle NNE or even go further north depending on what I will see.

starting region seems to be very productive... a good place for 20k again. :)

If going for 20k, does it make any sense to settle on the hills and jump the palace, I guess North? If so, when would one do this palace jump?

What is Korea's UU and civ characteristics?

If going for 20k, does it make any sense to settle on the hills and jump the palace, I guess North? If so, when would one do this palace jump?

Never played 20K, but my understanding that 20K should be started earlier. The earliest palace jump could be into the second city. But I do not see any sense in doing that. Why not simply build a capital where you want it instead of destroying the first one?

What is Korea's UU and civ characteristics?

here (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/cia/koreans.shtml)

starting region seems to be very productive... a good place for 20k again. :)

On Regent, I think an OCC 20k culture would be an interesting game. In that case I like the looks of N,NE for the start. I think a move to the mountain with the worker would be in order for that case to make sure of the start position.

If there's water to the north, N,NE would be even better. I don't like the idea of the palace so far south. The thing that could really turn this nice start nightmarish is if this is a smallish island off the coast of the large landmass. That would require settling a number of BG to get enough cities.
So, even though it will waste some time I think a quick look from the mountain with the worker is in order.

If going for 20k, does it make any sense to settle on the hills and jump the palace, I guess North? If so, when would one do this palace jump?

I guess I'll use my capitol as the 20K city this time and of course i won't jump the palace by abadoning it. if we can get a SGL (with this difficulty level, i'm expecting to do all the research myself), maybe we can do a jump after the forbidden city is built.

I guess I'll use my capitol as the 20K city this time and of course i won't jump the palace by abadoning it. if we can get a SGL (with this difficulty level, i'm expecting to do all the research myself), maybe we can do a jump after the forbidden city is built.

Only one problem with that. SGLs are off for all COTM games. You could jump the palace with an MGL though.

Only one problem with that. SGLs are off for all COTM games.

That's too bad. I'm assuming this is due to their randomness and the fact they severely change a player's game with a single SGL.

As to COTM11 I'm thinking of settling my capitol N, NE and than founding my city S, S of the capitol (or SE of the starting position). I'll make the 2nd city the 20k city (or attempt too :) ).

After the mountainous start in GOTM#41, we face another one here in COTM#11.

Some would say that this might be a worrying trend but for me I like the idea. It's extremely easy to just settle in place normally and then scout 'round later, whereas with a mountainous start you are forced to have a quick scan of the nearby 'best spots' and choose.

Afterwards, when all the dust has settled, analysis will show that the starting locations for most players will have varied more than with normal situations.

I like it - you have to think more. :goodjob:

That's too bad. I'm assuming this is due to their randomness and the fact they severely change a player's game with a single SGL.

That's the general idea. With a lucky SGL on your first tech you could rush Pyramids and blow everyone away with growth.

Only one problem with that. SGLs are off for all COTM games. You could jump the palace with an MGL though.
You sure? I thought MGLs can't rush the palace.

I like the idea of setting N NE. I think I'll move the worker N and take a look. If there is good stuff, the settler will follow. The worker would start working the BG and cow. I'd like to pop out an early settler to head back to the spot S of the starting location. But, there might be better stuff to the north, so that first settler may take a different track. I've just started playing C3C. I'll need to refresh me memory of Korea's traits and UU. Sedentary barbs might give some early bonuses.

I think a move to the mountain with the worker would be in order for that case to make sure of the start position.

North of that mountain there appears to be yet another mountain, which would obscure the view. Perhaps a move into the game forest would reveal just as much, and an early chop could also come in handy should we decide to settle within reach. Settler onto the hill NE to look in that direction.

You sure? I thought MGLs can't rush the palace.
is palace considered a small wonder?

btw, can korean's UU trigger golden age? Can they kill? never used Korea before.

You sure? I thought MGLs can't rush the palace.
It's a small wonder, so yes, MGL's can.

btw, can korean's UU trigger golden age? Can they kill? never used Korea before.
I could be wrong on this one, but I think C3C gave the H'wacha fatal bombard so that it could trigger GA.

It's a small wonder, so yes, MGL's can.
Just tried a test game, and they can't.

Characteristics: (nominally) Pangaea, 60% ocean


And this was written for the pre-game GOTM40 Greece


Land Form: (nominally) Continents, 70% Ocean.


Mind that little word "(nominally)". It could very well mean that we're alone on a very small pangaea this time :sad:

Hm, I'll send the Worker N to the mountain in any case. If the land there is acceptable, I'll go NNW and play this as OCC. Just can bring myself to milk a Regent 60% game :blush:.

Edit: Ainwood, MGLs should be able to rush the Palace. Really. If that is not the case here (MGLs modded), that needs to be mentioned specifically IMHO.

And this was written for the pre-game GOTM40 Greece



Mind that little word "(nominally)". It could very well mean that we're alone on a very small pangaea this time :sad:


Good point. I think Renata was kinder to us when she simply did not call her map pangaea.
But I guess moving north will not hurt even in this case. If it is a small island we will need to plan our city locations very accuratly to maximize their number and their production. The faster we'll know geography the better.
And that cow - it cannot be irrigated and there is no point in mining it. Yet going far from it will slow our growth for a few first turns.

Edit: Ainwood, MGLs should be able to rush the Palace. Really. If that is not the case here (MGLs modded), that needs to be mentioned specifically IMHO.All I did was create a scenario with a leader and lots of cities. The leader can creat an army or hurry the forbidden palace; he can't rush wonders or improvements, and the Palace is considered and "improvement".

That's an Editor bug. A MGL is a 'spawned upon victory' unit. It is not possible to place a MGL on the map with the C3C editor. Any unit with the AI 'Leader' strategy you place on the map is a "non-Military, non-Scientific Leader". He can exclusively rush Wonders (Small or Great), and if the 'Create Army' flag is checked (like in the case when you preplace a MGL) he can create an Army. He cannot rush units/improvements (you're correct, the Palace is a 'special' improvement, not a wonder), nor trigger a SGA. The SGL is not accessable at all with the editor, btw.
That bug is the reason for quite a number of (wrong) myths about MGLs in C3C.
But really, I moved the Palace with a MGL in C3C countless times, and everyone on the SG forum will tell you the very same :).

To test what a MGL could do, you need to place a stack of elite units (Cossacks, MAs) next to a stack of AI Conscript Warriors and attack until you get one.

Mind that little word "(nominally)".

Yep. I saw it the second I opened up this thread. Yet another an isolated start. This seems to be a recurrent theme in recent XoTMs. My current thinking is WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). IOW, this is our entire starting island (more or less). I hope that we are not too far from the Pangea but I doubt that my hopes will be realized. (I remain optimistic)

I'm thinking Palace Jump -- and I have never done that before in 3C3. As for the opening move, I'm going to do the obvious. Settler s/e and found. Research: writing 100%. I have not decided what comes next. If I have misjudged the starting position, pottery might be a choice. More likely it will be either be a Republic slingshot or a "Mapmaking slingshot".

Note that pottery is a prerequisite for the latter.

In any case, my first build is a curragh. Probably the second too.

Ah - OK, thanks for that. I thought I'd failed to jump the palace with a MGL in a succession game, but wasn't sure. That may have been a modded GL from PTW anyway, IIRC.

Since I hate to claim something without proving it (failed often enough :rolleyes: ), some pics:

Small scenario; preplaced a stack of Elite MAs vs. a stack of Warriors, and a "Leader". And the HE. Completely unmodded rules, I swear.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Preplc.jpg

After some rounds (and after disbanding the preplaced leader, of course):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MGL.jpg


And:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Sun.jpg

:D

(Of course, you don't have to believe me that this is not a copy/paste job, so: Here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Leadertest.SAV) is the save.)

Thanks - I'll believe you. Now just need to work-out the differences between a placed leader and a generated one....

I think the choice is simple: SE to get the cow immediately, and send out an early curragh or two. If its a small island, you'll know almost immediately with boats, and if its on the main landmass, you'll inevitably meet people more quickly than your (or their) slow warriors. Pottery-> Writing, trade for the other first tier techs. No fresh water should not be a problem for awhile unless you are 20King in your capital.

To ainwood.
The Palace is ordinary building not small or great wonder. So MGL can rush it. And IIRC Aeson did it in COTM08.

I could be wrong on this one, but I think C3C gave the H'wacha fatal bombard so that it could trigger GA.

This is correct. I did both (lethal bombard + GA) in my last game playing Korea. If you're like me and tend to work your way through the bottom part of the MA tech tree first, this makes for a nice early-mid Middle Ages Golden Age.

My first COTM game.
I usually play on monarch level, so I am quite confident that I won`t totally embarass myself.
Anyway, with Korea on an Island I probably will do just a builders game. I am too lazy for large transcontinental conquests.

Mind that little word "(nominally)".

I wondered about that, but then one has to humbly follow the Boss' path...
so I could only stick to the Staff Guidelines™, that prescribe the use of the word 'nominally' (Article 4, clause 19.1). As simple as that :D

Actually, 'Nominally' simply means that the map setting is "pangaea". Of course, not all pangaeas are equal, but this does not necessarily mean that you get an isolated start...

And use of such terms as "nominally" is great for sowing seeds of paranoia. :)

You could call some maps 'abnormal pangea' too to spread more confusion :p

And use of such terms as "nominally" is great for sowing seeds of paranoia. :)

Yessssssss :D
And subtly more so, I think, when you put it in brackets.

'Abnormal' sounds nice too. I was also considering 'probably' for the future... :ack:

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein:Would you mind telling me, who's brain I did put in?
Igor: And, you won't be angry?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I will not be angry.
Igor: Abby-someone.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Abby-someone. Abby who?
Igor: Abby-normal.
Sorry for the spam but I couldn't resist :D

:rotfl: I had missed that :lol:

And use of such terms as "nominally" is great for sowing seeds of paranoia. :)

It does work :blush:

OTOH, the only other possibility is that we are on peninsula/isthmus, in which case I like my idea of palace-jumping and skipping pottery research even more. Imagine slipping a settler passed the evil Egyptians and founding a new capital in the Land of Milk and Honey. Yum! :D

Are the GH's set up the same way as in COTM 10 (no settler) and more 'normal' distribution?

No, they are 'normal' goody huts -'abnormal' distribution

(lo! It only took three or fous posts to have a chance to use it :lol: )

starting region seems to be very productive... a good place for 20k again. :)

Hmm, I've been beaten two times in a row (COTM09 and -10) going for 20K :(
I'll give it one more try.

Not sure if settling SE or NNE. SE will give extra speed for having the cow immediatly in range. NNE will probably have more landtiles in range.

I am also going for yet another 20K attempt. My last try (COTM 9) was not bad but I guess with 20K effort the earliest finish is the most important. At the moment I am about to finish COTM 10 on my home PC and GOTM 41 on my PowerBook (20K attempt).

It seems to me many players go to 20K in COTM11. Previously I planned for 20K also. But solenoozerec was right about 100K milking... it spents a lot of time (and not ended yet). So if I will not have enough time for playing I'll try Domination for relax.

I'll definitely settle in the next NE tile.

Okay - so on the one hand, this is good for a 20K, with all those shields. On the other hand, a decent 6-turn combi-pump is staring at us, and at Regent that should be more than enough.

Decisions, decisions.

Just tried a test game, and they can't.

I rushed palaces with MGL two times in GOTM10.

Tricky one. This start looks good until you realize you can't irrigate anything, so you can't get a 4-turn settler factory. Adding insult to injury, your palace is in a very non-central location.

I would move the worker N-N before deciding where to place. Move the settler NE. If there's nothing up north, the settler can plop down without losing any time. If there is some fresh water action up north, then everything needs a second look.

If that N-N mountain reveals a coast in the distance ... well. In that case, you'd need to make all you can out of your island getaway, and putting the settler on the hills NE-N gives you room for 3 or 4 cities while still keeping your corruption low. You'd need to research pottery, writing, and map-making without help, and all without any fresh water to boost research.

I played a number of test games this weekend, one to completion, others stopping in the Ancient Age. I think I have the basics of a strategy in mind.

Research.
Research to Philosophy at max. I never failed to get it in my test games. Get Code of Laws free, and research Republic at max. Revolt. This line of research goes very fast and is very tradable with all your contacts. You can easily trade for almost all the other techs. Even if the deals aren't great, I'll trade anyway. Find out where the iron and horses are by trading for these techs. Then head for Invention and Gunpowder, then Economics and Physics.

Exploration.
Sending 2 warriors exploring is a must. And an early currah is important, too. Contact everyone and trade for tech. Pop every goody hut. Being on the end of a pennisula is good, because you don't have to explore in all directions.

Defense.
In my test games, I was attacked early and often. There is a good chance of a warrior rush by your nieghbors. The pennisula is a good thing, because you don't have to cover your flank. Its important to get veteran units. The AIs don't seem to build barracks early, even if they are militaristic and have a price break. I plan to build barracks in any city that will produce more than one or two units.

Offense.
The best defense is a good offense. I'd like to find early iron an start building swordsmen as both offensive and defensive units. I will need to expand outward. Land will be at a premium and I'll need at least 20% of it to be competative. When I am offered the Forbidden Palace, I know that somewhere on my current border is the center of my second core. At that time I'll need to have enough production and swordsmen (or horsemen) to take the land for the second core. After that, I'll simply be opertunistic, and not aggressively expand.

Wonders.
The only early wonder I'd consider is the Statue of Zeus because it will produce ancient cavalry. But, I suspect I'll get any of my early wonders by pointy stick during my land grab. The first wonder I'll go for will be Leonardo. I'll then research Gunpowder, and then straight to Economics and build Smiths. Then, research to and build Newtons. When they are complete, a Golden Age will trigger. If I'm lucky, I'll have Nationalism, Steam and Industrialization when the Golden Age triggers. That will help get Theory of Evolution and slingshot to Hoover.

Goal.
Diplomatic or Spaceship.

Why research to Philosophy right away? At Max research, on Regent, going Pottery->Writing->CoL->Philo with a free Republic should be easy to pull off; even if isolated.

So, Eldar, where would you settle, which tiles need to be worked, and what unit would you alternate with the settler in the pump?

I've been burned in my test games by time consuming pump setup. I'm not sure if there is an early strategy that meets all needs.

Good points. Very good points. I hearby change my strategy. In my test games I almost always got pottery early in trades, and didn't event think about researching CoL first. I'm still learning.

So, Eldar, where would you settle, which tiles need to be worked, and what unit would you alternate with the settler in the pump?

I've been burned in my test games by time consuming pump setup. I'm not sure if there is an early strategy that meets all needs.

I'd settle 1SE, because I generally don't like walking round too much, even on lower difficulty levels.

Why?
1. Coastal. Anywhere on this peninsula is going to have sea squares in its 21. For a 20K city in particlar, you want these to be 2f+max commerce - so it has to be coastal to allow (a) a Harbor, (b) Colossus. For any other city, it's less important but I'd still prefer to get full whack out of those coast tiles.

2. Gets both bonus tiles, and all the visible bonus grass.

3. It's on a hill; better defence.

@Markus5

I like your enthousiasm but there a few little remarks that can be made:

When I am offered the Forbidden Palace, I know that somewhere on my current border is the center of my second core.

I've got to warn you, C3C there isn't something like a second core. Only the city with the FP will have less corruption. The cities around the FP will not benefit from being close to the FP.

The only early wonder I'd consider is the Statue of Zeus because it will produce ancient cavalry.

You've got to lay your hands on ivory first ofcourse.

I think it makes better sense to settle SE and worry later about moving the palace. Even though its regent, it will be easier to expand if you are only going in one direction. Initial growth wont be that fast and there my be very few rivers given the the dry conditions.

I thought that the Forbidden Palace helped with one kind of corruption, but not the other. I forget the details. But, its certainly not like Vanilla or PTW.

Will just the colossus cause a GA or would you need a second wonder?

Will just the colossus cause a GA or would you need a second wonder?

Korea is Scientific and Commercial, so you'd still need a scientific wonder to trigger a Golden Age.

Scientific Wonders:
Mausoleum
Great Library
Theory of Evolution
Cure for Cancer
Longevity
The Internet

Commercial Wonders:
Colossus
Great Lighthouse
Magellan's
Adam Smith's
United Nations
The Internet

This could actually be pretty good timing for a 20K game -- build the Colossus, get Republic through the Philosophy slingshot, revolt, and when you come out of the revolution, finish the Mausoleum and launch a Golden Age, which in turn fuels the building of one or two other Ancient Age wonders.

This could actually be pretty good timing for a 20K game -- build the Colossus, get Republic through the Philosophy slingshot, revolt, and when you come out of the revolution, finish the Mausoleum and launch a Golden Age, which in turn fuels the building of one or two other Ancient Age wonders.

I've often found that when I switch to Republic without having Currency (i.e. marketplaces) it's actually worse. My income drops so much my research takes a major hit just so I can keep a positive gpt. How are you getting around that?

Now I don't switch to Republic until I have several marketplaces built first.

This could actually be pretty good timing for a 20K game -- build the Colossus, get Republic through the Philosophy slingshot, revolt, and when you come out of the revolution, finish the Mausoleum and launch a Golden Age, which in turn fuels the building of one or two other Ancient Age wonders.

Good point. The main problem with 20K in this location is the lack of fresh water, although I suppose that it's possible there is some just off the map. This strat might also work if you are going for some other victory. Might be better to do it in another city though... somewhere further north.

Edit: the only other way to get a GA in a reasonable time frame is by pinging someone. Since that would come rather late for my tastes, I am going to consider building the wonders.

So, they gotm gods actually do hear us ;) . I've got one major question: Will the H'wacha be of any use other than actually starting the GA? With Regent it seems to be much better to run ai's over with Cavalry. Maybe the ai's will build all their cities on hills?

I've often found that when I switch to Republic without having Currency (i.e. marketplaces) it's actually worse. My income drops so much my research takes a major hit just so I can keep a positive gpt. How are you getting around that?

If you're having problems, it's generally because you have too many units to support. Some suggestions:

1. Build cities. They give support for 1.5 units while towns only support a half unit.

2. Don't build useless units. No defence. Only good offence. Early in the game, that means horsies and swords (assuming you have the resources available - if you don't, it's a whole 'nother story). You can build a few warriors for exploration and maybe a couple of MPs in specialized cities like settler factories.

3. Once you change to republic, your MPs should either be upgraded or disbanded. Do not keep outdated units around. Go for quality, not quantity.

4. Build markets. You knew about that, but you should do it after your revolt. Not before.

Meteor, this is Conquests. Hwachas have lethal bombardment now.

Probably means no saltpeter around.

for a 20k goal, has anyone thought about getting the construction asap so that we can get the aqueduct to support 6 more workers (+12 shields or so)?
that is quite a boost. maybe we should consider a slingshot to construction instead of republic unless there's some way else around.

Meteor, this is Conquests. Hwachas have lethal bombardment now.

Probably means no saltpeter around.

My point was that it's on Regent so Hwacha's have lost some of their human value. They would get a lot of use if this was Emperor level+ and we had to fight tooth and nail using stacks of Hwacha and Muskets/Rifles. I hope the map is hard enough to make that a reality. If there's no Iron/Horses/Saltpeter on a peninsula start then this could be interesting.

If there's no Iron/Horses/Saltpeter on a peninsula start then this could be interesting.

With all the hills and mountains around I would say chances of Iron would be great on a randomized map. Unfortunately, this map isn't random so I'm not expected Iron/Horses/Saltpeter to be very close.

This is Regent and I expect a lot of players won't even research Metallurgy, research will stop at Engineering/Invention and Knights will finish the job. In that case, a Colossus/MoM GA is necessary, and should be easy enough to set up.

This is Regent and I expect a lot of players won't even research Metallurgy, research will stop at Engineering/Invention and Knights will finish the job. In that case, a Colossus/MoM GA is necessary, and should be easy enough to set up.
Colossus/Great Lib is better. You are going to want to get Libraries asap anyway. If you time it right, GL will be finished about the time you get republic. You can use Pyraminds or Oracle for pre-build. It doesn't hurt that the AI rarely goes for liturature early.

Sorry to disagree. MoM is cheaper and available earlier. Further, it actually provides some small benefit, unlike the Library which is totally useless at this level.

Sorry to disagree. MoM is cheaper and available earlier. Further, it actually provides some small benefit, unlike the Library which is totally useless at this level.My bad. I talking about in terms of 20K. For other VC, MoM is good enough.

[QUOTE=Karasu]COTM11 - Korea

Korea was requested, Korea it is :D
And what more could you ask for: a rich start, an easy Regent game... ;)
QUOTE]

My guess is that "an easy Regent game" is sarcastic. I'll bet we are on a stupidly small island. Should be good :)

Oh yeah, when is COTM11 being uploaded?

Oh yeah, when is COTM11 being uploaded?

April 1st. No Fooling. :D

It should be available on April 1, don't forget Ainwood's on NZ time, blah, blah, blah.

My only problem with a Colossus/MoM GA is it's a bit too early; but engineering a Hwach'a GA is going to be tricky! I may head for Space/UN with this one, and hold off for an early IA GA kicked off by Newton's instead.

My bad. I talking about in terms of 20K. For other VC, MoM is good enough.

Ah. OK. We misunderstood each other. Sorry. I agree that this is better for a 20K. If I were going for that goal, I would move the worker to the mountain and then decide whether the capital goes nne and the wonder town se or vice-versa. From what I see here, capital to the north seems better unless we spot something good. Water maybe? :) Research order: CB-Writing-CoL-Philo-Republic-Literature. Then you have a decision. Do you research the right side of the tree for happy wonders or the left for aqueducts? Depends partly on how useful the AI has been, I suppose.

As my own plan is military, I am heading straight for the Middle Ages as fast as I can. Settler south east. Worker to the cow. My only optional tech will be Republic and I heading straight for it.

My only problem with a Colossus/MoM GA is it's a bit too early; but engineering a Hwach'a GA is going to be tricky! I may head for Space/UN with this one, and hold off for an early IA GA kicked off by Newton's instead.

My main problem with it is that 400 shields is a lot of money to invest in a GA. If I could capture one of them (or some other appropriate wonder) and build the other, that would be well worth it.

I disagree about Hwach'as though. It should be easy to get a victory. Ever see a redlined unit? Lock and load :cool: Should be ideal for you.

My problem with using Hwacha's is that I don't expect to ever build any. I may change my mind about VC if I can't pull off a wonder GA. We'll see how the game develops. Hwach'as should be loads of fun but Regent is not the right level for them.

It should be available on April 1, don't forget Ainwood's on NZ time, blah, blah, blah.

.... but Karasu has designed this one and ainwood's going to be playing it, so he's not involved in the game release. That's down to me. If you're interested in the effect of my time zone, check out the COTM 09 release schedule, when I last released a game, for Renata. And then remember that Europe has already switched to daylight saving, the US hasn't, and try to do the math :rolleyes:.

Going for an early IA GA, I'm more likely to favour Smith's/Newton's. I should have the spare capacity and/or pre-builds by the time they come around. I'd also expect to have captured something useful by then too.

.... but Karasu has designed this one and ainwood's going to be playing it, so he's not involved in the game release. That's down to me. If you're interested in the effect of my time zone, check out the COTM 09 release schedule, when I last released a game, for Renata. And then remember that Europe has already switched to daylight saving, the US hasn't, and try to do the math :rolleyes:.

Well, we're in the same country; so I don't need to worry about the maths! :lol:

I don't need to worry about the maths!:lol: As you can tell by my spelling, I was addressing the wider audience.

The very small land area at the initial picture worries me a bit, since the core around (well not much to build around) the palace will be small. But if it is a 'normal' (or a probable) pangea, it might be beneficial to move the settler five, six times north.
I will either do that or prepare for a very early palace jump.

My problem with using Hwacha's is that I don't expect to ever build any. I may change my mind about VC if I can't pull off a wonder GA. We'll see how the game develops. Hwach'as should be loads of fun but Regent is not the right level for them.

Unless everyone else is on a single land mass and we Navigation to get to them.

60% ocean? Makes me think that we are either on a very long peninsula, or we're on a short-one, cut-off by (say) greeks or carthage or something else with a strong early defender....

Or a Great Wall? ;) N/NE definately has possibilities, though it does slow down our initial growth, I think this can be made up.

Unless everyone else is on a single land mass and we Navigation to get to them.

Obviously this would change things...

However this is pangea and, from reading the entrails which Karasu has left spewed over this thread, I believe we are on the continent.

My current guess is that we are on a short peninsula and that some civ is dead north of us. Once we get past them, we're home free. Another guess: the Predator handicap is AI pikemen. Ugh! Or worse... more wall guards :eek:

edit: just noticed your next post :scan:

AI pikemen... interesting... ;) :mischief:

Why bother with pikemen, just put Carthage & Greece directly north and the Hoplites & Numidians will serve the same purpose.

As for my start idea, I thinking 1 SE and settle, worker SE to mine & road then to cow for road. Researching writing at maximum, then COL & Philosophy for the Republic bonus. Build order will be curragh, warrior, curragh, settler, Colossus. Hopefully city #2 will find a nice settler factory location to the north. The capital will be my 20K city, hoping for Colossus, Great Library, HG & maybe MoM as my AA wonder targets.

Gee, 20k sure is becoming popular, isn't it? I was considering jumping back into the COTM scene here, and heading maybe for Diplo or Space fastest finish.

I doubt there will be fresh water just out of sight, and I can't see moving out of range of the cow and game, so I don't think I will waste a move sending the worker north. I will start with settler SE to settle, worker straight to the cow. Build will be curragh, granary (with game chop), worker, warrior, and then I will have a 6-turn settler/warrior factory if we have land to explore or a 6-turn settler/curragh factory if I need to send many sailors to their deaths.

Research will be pottery followed by Republic slingshot at maximum.

My settler is definitely going north. A penninsula start is as bad as anything for corruption.

Bed_Head:

Gee, 20k sure is becoming popular, isn't it?

Somehow a domination / conquest game on Regent seems a little overkill and Space Race wouldn't be much of a race, so that leaves only Diplomatic :lol: , 100K Culture (not sure if there's enough land for that) and a lengthy histographic :cry: as other choices, so 20K was kind of a default for this one for me. Besides a quick game would allow me more time for GOTM42, SGOTM7, Bed_Head07 and additional HOF attempts.

Gee, 20k sure is becoming popular, isn't it? I was considering jumping back into the COTM scene here, and heading maybe for Diplo or Space fastest finish.
Funny, I too am tempted to play this one. I've started the last 4 or 5 GOTM/COTM, but haven't finished one. Maybe this is the one :)

This seems tailor made for a fun romp. I am thinking that a Hwacha blitz might be the right way to go for a fun game.

I don't know if I'll be able to finish this one, but the idea of playing with a bunch of Hwacha sounds like fun to me.

Maybe make it an "all artillery" game or something like that.

Possible self imposed rules.
1. My units can only attack red-lined enemies. (Forces artillery use)
2. My military must always be at least 50% artillery (Once math is discovered, can't build any more normal units till we reach 50%)

Note: these rules aren't to make it harder. They may not have that effect. Just to force me to play around with artillery in a way I don't normally do.

As for the start:

1. As has been pointed out, we have lots of shields and a good food supply. We can't build a 4 turn factory, but a 6 turn factory sharing the game every 3 turns is a given.
2. The start is solid, so I will go back to the golden rule.

When you consider the option to move rather than settle, it must generally be based on a significant gain in position that will offset the loss of ten points of score plus the first turn’s value in growth, production, commerce, and research.

We have here a solid starting location, so I see no reason to go searching north. We are commecial, which will offset any disadvantage we have due to not having a centrally located capitol.

In order to have the option for an early curragh, SE seems like the clear choice for settlement. My worker will work the cattle first, then either on to a BG or up to chop the game forest depending on the timing of my full out "Pottery" research.
Build wise I'd lean toward Warrior -> Curragh -> granary. If the warrior finds a great food bonus to the north, I'd probably switch to Warrior -> curragh -> (warrior or curragh) ->settler.

Food is power.

Jeffelammer: There's not much the worker can do to the cattle except build a road (mining would be lost to despotism penalty and there's no fresh water for irrigation).

I do like the idea of an artillery based game. I think I'll adopt that constraint for the rest of my empire and let Seoul concentrate on culture. Another goal will be to get an early MGL for a palace move to a more central location, so I'm hoping to find iron or horses nearby, or else it'll be archers & catapults against the AI (which might have been Karasu's intent all along).

I just realised something! This game will be released on Sakura's Birthday! :)

I'll see if I can pull off a medal in an unspecified random win condition (hopefully by being the only one to try it)...

AI pikemen... interesting... ;) :mischief:

More entrails. Shall I go open??

Noooo....

Lord, please give me strength to resist the temptation. :mischief:

Jeffelammar: There's not much the worker can do to the cattle except build a road (mining would be lost to despotism penalty and there's no fresh water for irrigation).

Maybe I'm smoking something, but isn't that a regular grassland under the cattle?

By my calcs, that would mean a base 2/0/0 with a 4/1/0 base with the cattle, minus despotic would be a 3/1/0 base square. In that case Mining and road would take it to 3/2/1.

If it is a BG and I missed it, then you are absolutely right.

Jeffelammer: There's not much the worker can do to the cattle except build a road (mining would be lost to despotism penalty and there's no fresh water for irrigation).Huh? That doesn't sound right. A cow gives 2food 1shield bonus. Mining it will give you a second shield. It has to be 3 or greater before you lose 1 to despotism.

The blind man concedes his error. :blush: That shield dot turns out to be a piece of the cow.

New plan: worker to cow to mine & road then to BG to mine & road.

I just realised something! This game will be released on Sakura's Birthday! :)

Are you saying that Sakura is/was an April fool??

Well????

BTW, who is/was Sukura?

for a 20k goal, has anyone thought about getting the construction asap so that we can get the aqueduct to support 6 more workers (+12 shields or so)?
that is quite a boost. maybe we should consider a slingshot to construction instead of republic unless there's some way else around.

i just want to bring this topic up again since no one answered it yet due to its insignificance. but i am quite worried about it.

Are you saying that Sakura is/was an April fool??

Well????

BTW, who is/was Sukura?Here (http://sakura.prettysenshi.com/info/cast/sakura.html)'s the description of Sakura from my favourite CCS site. Sakura is the main character in Card Captor Sakura... she's also the girl in my avatar.

i just want to bring this topic up again since no one answered it yet due to its insignificance. but i am quite worried about it.

To get Construction, you have to sidetrack through Mathematics and Iron Working -- add in the fact that you've got to research Ceremonial Burial (assuming you're going for a 20K victory), and I'm not sure how likely a successful Philosophy slingshot to Construction would be. I'm banking on having enough contacts to be able to trade for Construction. But even if I have to research it myself, Construction will definitely be a priority.

i just want to bring this topic up again since no one answered it yet due to its insignificance. but i am quite worried about it.

I kinda answered that question in post 75.

If I were going for [20k], I would move the worker to the mountain and then decide whether the capital goes nne and the wonder town se or vice-versa. From what I see here, capital to the north seems better unless we spot something good. Water maybe? :) Research order: CB-Writing-CoL-Philo-Republic-Literature. Then you have a decision. Do you research the right side of the tree for happy wonders or the left for aqueducts? Depends partly on how useful the AI has been, I suppose.

By this time, the AI should have researched Masonry, Iron Working and Mysticism for you. If you are lucky, Math will be out there too. It's probably too much to hope for Construction or Polytheism from a Regent AI so you will have to get them yourself. But you should be in your GA by this time, so it shouldn't be too great a problem to do it. The build order is probably: Temple-Colossus-Great Library-Library-Aqueduct. I think you could squeeze another wonder in after the Colossus, either the Pyramids (a great choice for a pangea) or the Oracle (cheaper).

An alternate plan, which is especially attractive if the the AI has been decent enough to learn Math by the time you know Philosophy, would be to research Construction before Literature. So the build order becomes Temple-Colossus-Some Wonder-Aqueduct-Library. Then you can really pump out Wonders during your GA :cool: Don't neglect the possibility of building MoM either, especially if it times well (coming in just after your revolt). If you do (and you have enough money), both the Aqueduct and Library can be cash-rushed.

More entrails. Shall I go open??

Noooo....

Lord, please give me strength to resist the temptation. :mischief:

Well, no. I mean, no AI Pikes for predator.
And, as far as I can remember, the cow is sitting on a BG.

But you'll be able to check it all very soon :)

No pikes either? You keep stompin' on all my paranoid theories.

I am really looking forward to seeing it. Hope Alan gets it out by midnight UK time. That means a good evening of civ for all us EST denizens. :D

No pikes either? You keep stompin' on all my paranoid theories.


:lol: no, no pikes to fuel your paranoid theories... it's Mech Infantries, in fact :p

Hmm, COTM9 was released at 3.30am GMT on Feb 1st :coffee: !!

Your point being? ...... I work programmers' hours :rolleyes:

I work normal office hours. I play Civ on programmers' hours.....

Well, assuming the cow is on a BG as implied and that the game forest is not, which can't be checked till I chop, I tried to determine how I want to start.

I'm definately going for Diplo or Spaceship as I want to try something different again from my regular romp across the enemy. Both seem interesting in the fact that the AI won't really help me in research after the AA since this is Regent.

Start move: Worker N, most likely settle N/NE, but will have to see what the worker sees. Potentially a little less corruption and by timing my granary better than moving SE I can (mostly) make up for the lost food and really only lose one turn. (Note: If I was to do 20K I would settler SE.) My second city will share the game/cow and also build a granary if we are not isolated.

Research: Pottery, Republic Slingshot, then Literature & Map Making, order to be determined after I get Republic.

AA Wonders: Really considering that big bronze thing and MoM. Don't know if I want to waste shields on them, though. Of course, if we are isolated the Lighthouse may be an option. Hopefully it won't be as useless as the last time I built it.

Building: Harbors, Aquaducts and Libraries seem important for me. This is abnormal as I almost never build Libraries since I usually stop research after I get to Chivalry. I saw the ill effects when I didn't build them when I needed to get to Navigation.

Resources & Luxuries: Wondering how this will affect us. Did Karasu leave us with nothing nearby? I have flashbacks to a 20 turn galley ride to Horses north of other civs.

In any case, I always love the surprises of the COTM games.

Bonus grassland cow? I've always wanted to play a game with one of those! Although without freshwater it's not nearly as fun (no benefit for improving it under despotism). :crazyeye:

I think building the forbidden palace a central location will be more efficient than a palace jump. The FP provides the same distance corruption benefits, and OCN corruption will not be a problem since there's no room for extra cities on the peninsula.

I think building the forbidden palace a central location will be more efficient than a palace jump. The FP provides the same distance corruption benefits, and OCN corruption will not be a problem since there's no room for extra cities on the peninsula.

I was under the impression that in C3C the FP didn't offer the same benefits towards corruption as the palace? I believe (please imform me if I am wrong) is the FP provides a higher OCN and the city with the FP has lesser corruption.

I won't move the worker to the mountain. Worker NW will reveal nearly as much, looking across the water. Building Seoul to the NE will also leave the possibility of fresh water open, with or without scouting. I will go for the tight build and aim for some early agression. (I always say that but end up preparing and preparing...) If it's a small island I'll milk this baby :eek:

If going for Diplo, How do you determine who can be voted for and which civ the Ai will vote for? I might try diplo this time since domination is just about inevitable.

TR: The vote is between the builder of the UN and the guy with the most land and people (usually the score leader). Who they vote for depends a lot on the history between the candidates and the voters. What is the typical way to assure the vote goes for you is to figure out who the largest AI is and sign MPP's with everyone else. Then a turn or 2 before the UN finishes, declare war on Mr Big. When he attacks you, all the other AI will declare on him and when the vote comes up they will never vote for someone they are at war with.

Ok. Now I just have to wait for eldar to post my starting moves ;)

Not quite true: the vote is between the 2 Civs with the highest population, and optionally the Civ that built the UN if it's not one of those two. I'm not sure what the deciding factor is - if there is one - when more than 1 Civ has the same population, though I guess "having built the UN" would be one of them.

Ok. Now I just have to wait for eldar to post my starting moves ;)

I bet you're wondering just what happened to my GOTM41 after my analysis there.... Not here, thanks ;)

Once the UN is built, the civ that owns it is asked then and every 11 turns afterwards whether s/he wants to call a vote. If the owner calls a vote s/he is a candidate. At least one other civ is a candidate, chosen by maximum population, I think. Any other civ with over 25% of total land area or 25% of world population is also a candidate.

The AI will vote according to some pretty complicated rules that Bamspeedy worked out. You need to read his article in the War Academy. Basically, you can get them to vote for you by being nice to them, by bribery, and/or by allying with them against your election opponent(s) using alliances or MPPs.

Does anyone know the reason for the occaisional 3-way votes that occur?

Does anyone know the reason for the occaisional 3-way votes that occur?

See Alan's post above... it's a better explanation than mine.

I just said - UN owner (not necessarily the builder :mischief: ) plus anyone with 25% of land or pop. You can have a small UN owner plus two major civs, and I guess it's theoretically possible to have a fourth candidate.

I was under the impression that in C3C the FP didn't offer the same benefits towards corruption as the palace? I believe (please imform me if I am wrong) is the FP provides a higher OCN and the city with the FP has lesser corruption.

Exactly. Therefore, if we are on a small island IMHO it is better to build FP somewhere close to a capital (due to low corruption it should be relatively fast) and later move capital to a place with many sorrounding cities. Location of FP does not matter in C3C since it does not create a second center with reduced corruption.

For all non-communal government types, the distance corruption component is proportional to the distance of a given city from its closest Palace. The “closest palace” to a city can be the Palace, the Forbidden Palace, or any other Wonder with the “reduces corruption” ability.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619

When I am offered the Forbidden Palace, I know that somewhere on my current border is the center of my second core.

I've got to warn you, C3C there isn't something like a second core. Only the city with the FP will have less corruption. The cities around the FP will not benefit from being close to the FP.

Reading Alexman's explanation of corruption (thank you DaveMcW) I conclude we were both a little wrong and a little right:
The cities close to the FP will benefit from being close by having less distance corruption, but it won't be like a second core for their rank corruption will not get lower for being close to the FP.

I once read a post from SirPleb where he stated that it wasn't worthwile in c3c to use a great leader to hurry the FP in a distant city. Building the FP brick by brick in a city in the general direction of ones major expansion but still relatively close to the palace, and using the great leader for an army was considered a better use.

Saves are out - time to get playing

SirPleb on FP placement in Conquest:
At any rate, two overall conclusions seem possible:
1) The Forbidden Palace isn't providing a huge boost. (It is a lot less than I expected.)
2) The exact placement of the Forbidden Palace is not very important. Building it sooner probably helps one's game more than building it in a better location.


I once read a post from SirPleb where he stated that it wasn't worthwile in c3c to use a great leader to hurry the FP in a distant city.

Do you mean this one (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1826337&postcount=199)?

Good bye fine thread, I'm off to download the game, I'll see everyone in the spoilers, I'll be the one with lots of culture in one place :D

Do you mean this one?

No, though that is a very good one too.

No there was a double post by SirPleb were he explained the differences of the new conquests-expansion compared to vanilla/ptw. I've been searching for it for an hour but can't find it.

I'm now taking Denyd's advice and start downloading and playing.

SirPleb's C3C Analysis (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89805&page=4&pp=20)

Posts #70 and #71. I've got this page bookmarked and I'm kinda surprised this isn't in the War Academy. It's just chock full of info goodness.

I finished the GOTM pretty early so I may make a serious try at finishing a COTM. Maybe I'll jump in on the 20k bandwagon. It's flexible enough that it can either be quickly finished or milked for points if I end up having enough time.

I thought this was going to be an april fool and it was gonig to end up being Korea Deity or something instead.

Well, no. Missed chance, I'm afraid...
...you better watch out next year, I guess ;)

For 20k, wouldn't it be an alternative to go directly for literature before CoL? 2*(3+6) culture per turn asap should make a huge difference.

Or is literature to expensive? (dunno anymore as I mostly play Rhye's of Civilization)

Also, what would be the benefit of not making the capital your 20k city and keeping the palace there?

For 20k, wouldn't it be an alternative to go directly for literature before CoL? 2*(3+6) culture per turn asap should make a huge difference.You don't want to have a despotic GA so you need to get Republic before TGL. Assuming that you have already built the Colossus, TGL will start your GA.

Or is literature to expensive? (dunno anymore as I mostly play Rhye's of Civilization)Literature is cheaper than CoL. Use Ainwood's great CivAssist utility to find out the price of the various techs.

Also, what would be the benefit of not making the capital your 20k city and keeping the palace there?If your 20K is not your capital, you have the Palace available as a pre-build for wonders.

If your 20K is not your capital, you have the Palace available as a pre-build for wonders.
Also, I believe the Forbidden Palace gives more culture per turn than the Palace does.

If you're that desperate to squeeze every last cpt out of your city, build the FP then the Palace. Who cares about corruption anywhere else....

If you're that desperate to squeeze every last cpt out of your city, build the FP then the Palace. Who cares about corruption anywhere else....

Interesting idea, I had never thought of that. Don't see why someone would actually do it though unless they could somehow manage it very early in the game. Still, it's a very good idea.

Looks like somehow capital has to be rebuild in the near future. No river is another disadvantage. Not a particular good location. :(

@ForbiddenPalace: Do you know anyone else besides you and me who can take care of corruption?

Courthouse is pretty good too... :rolleyes:

:D

My thoughts:

Start seems nice, but it really needs fresh water!
South there's ocean, I think, so I'll move my worker on the mountain to the N and see what it reveals. I may start a long walk if there's no fresh water nearby....

Arrrr, I just want to make my presence known on this one. COTM 10 was the game that swallowed me up, and I haven't posted much lately. So. I'm in. 'nuff said.

Just a quick question regarding the FP. What about waste? Doesn't it decrease waste in the nearby cities? I don't remember reading that anywhere, but I seem to remember my last FP jumping the production value of surrounding cities...

For the game itself, I think I will have to sacrifice at least 2 worker turns scouting the mountain. SE is looking like the probably starting point, however I am not a big fan of palace jumping - call me a purist - so I might end up going North with the Settler. Peninsulas drive me crazy! :mad:

I really wish we were dealing with a harder difficulty level (at least, I do for now) however I hope that there are elements of the game which contribute to the game's overall difficulty (ie: few resources, awful map, strong nearby opponenets.). I think that we might see the first two, however, on regent I doubt that the AI will be much of a threat. I will probably stick with my traditional warmongering technique, utilizing the H'wacha to break down enemy forces.

One last question, though. I have read quite a bit about Republic yet have had a hard time making any of the strategies worthwhile. What is the primary benefit? Do small nations recieve more benefits from corruption? I have kept a small offensive army and utilized marketplaces and libraries - where am I going wrong? I just don't see the advantage (Although I don't win by cultural victory very often). Perhaps my barracks are affecting my $... Any hints? :confused:

@zxe,
No one who has started playing is allowed to answer your questions in this thread. I suggest you post them somewhere else if you want a discussion on those issues.

@Megalou:

It's not a question about COTM11! He only asked about how to run a republic without losing money.

@zxe:

What I usually do to make money is keep a small but good offensive army (like you said) and built lots of marketplaces after I get republic. It also helps having some luxuries (more then 3 luxuries is good) so you don't have to use the luxury taxes slider thing. If you don't have 3 or more luxuries you should find some nations that are a (few) techs behind and sell your techs for money and luxuries. Ofcourse if you want to sell your techs for luxuries you also need some libaries and universities. It also helps when other civs are in republic so they make some money and can buy your techs.

If you wanna conquer your luxuries you better of in a monarchy!

Am I helping or do you know this already?? hehe Well.. hope I answered your question.

What I stated is just an echo of the rules. Personally I also find it hard to believe that one can answer these questions in this thread without involving the current game. So the questions are either inviting spoiling or simply in the wrong thread. It's no crime to ask them, and hookmonkey's answers are neutral and basic, but I'm trying to give you some advice!

@zxe,

Regarding corruption: in C3C there are two types, rank from Palace only and distance from Palace or FP; see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=76619

Regarding starting postion: see my earlier posts as to my thoughts and consider starting bonuses and challenges given to make your decision

Regarding Republic: my normal warmonger strategy is to go for the Republic slingshot and quit research at Chivalry, I build only barracks and usually 1-3 granaries first - note no libraries or marketplaces; for military, I build only horsemen (no defense, very few exploring warriors which I either upgrade or disband) - after research is shut off I use the gold to upgrade and attack until I reach domination - of course if you like later techs you could start research again after upgrades are done; this still works going for 100K, I just build libraries, colloseums & cathedrals - ToA gets my Temples, preferably captured, for me and since I don't reach education, no universities

NE looks better to me than SE -- it offers more food and shields both in the starting 8 and full city radius.

The only exception might be 20K with capital as wonder city -- moving NE knocks out Col. and GrLighthouse--but extra production might compensate for this anyway.

To be sure, N, NE might be better still-but I'm still trying to fine-tune my early game, so any comments on my logic here would be appreciated.

I'm getting my tuckus handed to me on a platter! Maybe this game isn't for me after all. I'm so far behind that I'm thinking seriously about giving up and trying a different game, maybe KOTOR2, maybe WoW. :cry:

I don't see a way to pull this one out................ :suicide:

Seriously though, CivIII/Conquests has been the most difficult game I've ever tried to get a handle on, maybe RPG is more my style. I've outgrown the fast-twitch FPS games, deathmatch gets kind of boring after a few minutes.

No point in my post really, just wish I could play CivIII like you guys. :spear:

UPDATE: Removed spoilers, saved the gripes

@ TyranusBonehead, that is spoiler information and shouldn't be posted here.

@Tyranus: I think you should play whatever games you have fun with. I'm a big fan of both FPS games(D3, Far Cry, etc) and KotoR(haven't played 2 yet), *and* Civ. If it frustrates you to do badly, read strategy articles and commit to getting better.