Fed up with warheads interfering with your peaceful quest for space? This is the place to strike back!
I want 4 partners in this mission and the goal is to destroy/dominate 7 militaristic civs that we've honestly had enough of.
Monarch/Emperor players are welcome to join.

Payback setup:
Civ: India
Rivals: Mongols, Zulu, Germany, Aztecs, China, Japan & Scandinavia
AI aggression: Max
Barbarians: Raging
Victory Conditions: Only Domination and Conquest

Payback rules:
Can't do:
Give in to demands
Declare war
Sue for peace
Razing/autorazing cities
Sign MA's, MMP's or trade embargos
Break ongoing deals
Turn down peace offers so war continues
Starve population on purpous
Must do:
Give immediate boot orders to foreign troops
Assimilate all captured slaves in Indian cities of choise
Optional:
Sign RoP's
Haggle deals
Demanding tribute
All lux/tech trade


How we play/post
24 hrs to post a 'got it' and a further 48 to play. First turn set for the first player of 20 turns (up to 3000BC) followed by 10 turns thereafter.

The Payback Library
On War Weariness (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml)
On Artillery Defensive (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_artill_defensive.shtml) Offensive (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_Artillery_effective.shtml)
On AI attitude (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ai_attitude.shtml)
On City Tile Production (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2080) . Scroll down in thread.



The idea is to win by striking very hard/fast at those who dare to declare on us but to otherwise follow the peaceful path. Annoying neighbours to make them declare is definetly allowed/a must (we want their money to build nice temples, right?).
Is it possible to win this way? I don't know but I'm curious to find out. This is my first attempt att starting an SG so we'll see how the logistics work.
I will post a starting position in a couple of hours and then we could have a pre game discussion.
Interested are welcome to discuss/comment the set up. I'm open to suggestions :)

I'll play, but won't be able to post until late friday/early saturday.

By slaves joining cities you mean workes and such putting the population up?

A hatful of highly volatile civs and the aggression cranked up! No chance to pursue the war when we have the upper hand and they offer peace! Assimilate slaves into our own natural population to destabilize our own cities! I just love to take the moral high ground and I could do with a challenge. This has got to be crazy! Count me in please!

One question (and I suspect that the answer will be 'no'): are we allowed to negotiate when they offer peace or do we have to take the PT with no haggling?

Not a sign up but this is a difficult but fun game and it plays a level above normal. You've added a few things to Arathorn's variant like adding slaves to your cities. Whoa! A few things from his variant includes any civ that razes one of your cities must be eliminated and all peace terms must be better than even up.
Arathorn's variants including defiance. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_variants.shtml)

@Chunky Kong & Tone
Hi Buddys, you're in. Welcome up on the high horse :lol:

By slaves I do mean captured workers. We nice Indians don't like poeple to be slaves so we invite them to live in our culture packed cities. Could as noted lead to some diturbance but we'll handle that.
Read the link to Arathorn's variant and this looks a lot like his defiant game.
As I said, rules are up for discussion. I'd go with the "No trade embargos" sice we like nations to come together and benefit from trading. Even if someone's been bad to us we will be forgiving and give him another chanse (or a 7:th). I'm not sure about the immediate boot order, but it would be a great way to get the party started without having to declare. In line with good manners (we R good manners!) you should ask for permission before entering someones home so I guess I vote for that one too. Peace deals can be haggeld, we're traders and dealers, but not to the point that prolonges the war. If Shaka bends over then peace it must be, but we will squezze as much as we can out of his sorry butt.
I will edit rules within the 1:st post as we state them.
As for the kick off it will be apr. 8th. I'll be off for some skiing fri-tue so a bit of a delay suits me fine. In the meantime we can start planing the campaign.
How will we use UU?
What wonder to build?
Research order preferred?
Dense or spacy city layout?
I'm certain we have different styles of playing and there will be plenty of room for that, but I would also enjoy drawing a big picture together before we head off.
We should also decide on time limits on playing/posting. If you guys have done an SG before and have advice on that then post it. Is it good to do lesser turns each in ancient or not? 10/15/20 turns?

A starting position is soon to come and it will be Pang for sure.

This is what we've got and it looks nice to me. Plains to the west could mean ivory (Zeus anyone?), lots o bonus grass and who knows, if we move Mr. Worker in the lucky direction we might hit wheat/cow. It also looks like we're smack dab in the middle of the map so we could be completely surrounded by warheads.
Settings:
Pangea 60% water, standard size
Normal, temp., 4 billion yrs

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/4000BC1.jpg

Interested, if isn't filled

I'll play if there's still room in the roster. I normally play builder style on emperor level, going to war only if needed. Might fit here.

@ Beorn-eL-Feared & Lullaby
Welcome Brothers/Sisters? You're on so the team is complete *trumpets*! Nice to see we have an international touch with Sweden (me), Canada, England and Germany represented, Chunky?

I suggest we make a little brief intro to ourselves as civvers just to mingle a bit so here goes:
I've played for 2 months and quickly got to monarch. There I stayed for a while trying emp but failing mostly. I've applied things I've read here along the way and today I'm quite comfortable at emperor. I normally build inside-out with a dense productive core and an odd Lux-city on the outskirts. I micromanage some but wouldn't say I'm that good because I enjoy some flow in play and haven't reached the level where MM comes naturally. I've got no wonder addiction but will build if appropriate. I favour non-militaristic civs but appreciate a good fight every now and then, especially when striking back :D

I do make mistakes and urge my fellow players to be generous about this towards each other. I will encurage discussion as we play along and constructive critisism will hopefully benefit us all.
As previously mentioned I'm new to the concept of SG's but it seems straightforward enough. If we get the downloading of files going I guess there's no probs.
I have a full patch with barab fix but no other add ons so I suppose it will fit all in the team.

My views (in no particular order)...

I like 24 hrs to post a 'got it' and a further 48 to play, but the second might depend upon the type of game and number of turns. IMO first turn set for the first player of 20 turns (up to 3000BC) followed by 10 turns thereafter works well.

Research: We start with a monopoly on Alphabet which is a valuable tech to have. I would normally start on Writing (maybe Pottery first if we have food), get a few warrior scouts out and look to trade when we have a few contacts but we might be under pressure to trade earlier than we might want with our agressive neighbours. Longer term, get to a higher form of government quickly (Republic slingshot?) and then head for Chivalry!

Whatever we do, we are going to be under pressure to appear strong otherwise the dogpile could be intense so I would tend not to build spears. Barracks might also be a luxury early on. Reg warriors and settlers and workers will be the order early on. If we can find a decent food source nearby, a granary would be great. Our capital can pump out units with those bgs mined.

I think this is going to be a less than peaceful early game unless we can keep the AI sweet. (It's going to get nasty at some point as we can only win by conquest or domination.) If we can get trades going and use some of the proceeds to fund embassies we might keep out of early conflicts and give us a chance to expand.

Wonder? I wouldn't bother. FP close to our core will be worth it though, once we have a few towns up and running. Are SGLs on? If they are and we get lucky early on; Pyramids!

We should be OK with a reasonably spaced out city build (3.5-5) but I sometimes wait to see if we have any close neighbours and what the surrounding territory is like. I doubt whather we'll see hospitals so we should be using most of our territory with size 12 cities.

Of course I'll go with the flow on this game. I'm always prepared to state my views but in the end I'm just here to have fun.

BTW have you 'fixed' the barbs (No AI patrol=0) or are they only going to head on a NW-SE axis? Edit-answered:cross post!

I normally play builder style on emperor level, going to war only if needed. Might fit here.

"Build it and they will come" is a quote from the movie Field of Dreams and I think it fits here. We will build and they will surely come (to get it), but we're not building what they expect us to ;) . When they come they will be up to their ears in spears. They've been razing our tempels for too long!
I suppose we will try to balance the Indian trait advantages with the militaristic build. Beeing religous will serve us well since we'll be going in and out of war like :crazyeye: (my hopes/fears anyway).

I suggest we make a little brief intro to ourselves .I've played for a couple of years now and I'm comfortable at around Emperor/DG but it depends on the start. I've never lost a GOTM/COTM since my first game (GOTM 16) by they are often kind starts. I've recently got hooked on SGs (first SGOTM was #4) and even more recently the HoF. I'm a recovering builder but my HoF space and diplo attempts have sent me into relapse ;) I have played my SGs with the city gov switched off (thank goodness for MapStat!) and no automated workers as even I can concentrate for 10 turns at a time. In general I try to follow the rules and etiquette posted on the SGOTM pages.

I do make mistakes and urge my fellow players to be generous about this towards each other. I will encurage discussion as we play along and constructive critisism will hopefully benefit us all. Sounds perfect!

ps-hope the skiing is good. This is the only the second year that I haven't skied since 1990 and I'm missing it badly:(

SGL's are on but if we're lucky and have ivory I'd go for math and Zeus. Getting to Republic I'm not sure about, nomally yes, but I suspect we will have to deal with a great deal of WW then, and if we have a spacy layout with fewer/bigger cities I think Monachy is better due to unit support, correct me if I'm wrong. Chivalry sounds good if we don't have Zeus. I general I believe a militaristic research program is needed alternatively we research upper level techs and trade for mil. tech as soon as avaliable. We should see to it that we don't lag behind in military advancements.
You're right about spears! Offensive units impress AI more and are a better "peacemaker". With raging barbs some spears would come in handy for settler escort thou. Monarch barbs are weak but they will come in dozens and a warrior (especially reg.) sometimes fail to manage that. I would like one early Barrack for the sole purpous of pumping archers.
As for having fun I'm with you 100%. This will be loads :lol:

We won't be declaring and we will accept PT requests so I don't think that we'll suffer from WW. Knowledge of iron or horses will be important but I was hoping to trade for these. We should be able to get a couple of settlers out before the barbs come knocking by which time a barracks or three will be fine. If food is low there will be not a lot else to build in our core anyway!

Downloaded MapStat few days ago and can confirm. It's truly great, but the Happiness pop up everytime a new citizen arrives can be a wee bit annoying with 40 cities.
Btw, I think every utility that doesn't alter the rules/settings are up to each team member to use.

I have 2 slots in HoF myself but that is mainly because I went for vacant ones, ha, ha.

You're probably right about the iron/horse research. Our neighbours will have them soon enough and it's a waste to do double research. I'd go along with the "research peace/trade for military"-agenda. If we have a decent army AI will trade, but a decent army is the least. Hopefully we'll build a sleeping tiger.
My experience with raging barbs is they do come kind of soon in the game so a bit of precaution is good. It's a drag loosing settlers :sad:
About WW I have very limited experience in doing long wars when attacked. The 40 turn wars I fight will normally be initiated by me. I get pissed and slow everything down by dragging every available civ into war giving them what they want. In this game that will of course be a no go.

This is a testfile with the same settings as in The Indian Payback (but with Osman). If everyone on deck can get it going then we should be fine when it's time to play.

Excuse me if you have already seen this but I found this (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml) article on WW very useful. Don't fight extended wars, don't leave your units in enemy territory, don't let them attack you and you have a very happy population. IMO this is why horses are so valuable.

Excellent! Will study before we start. Seems we've kicked off the research agenda allready :goodjob: . I'll edit such suggested reading in 1:st post.
Also, added an obvious rule that makes our misson different from the defiant variant. We can't raze AI cities (defiant must) so they'll have to be pop 2 or have grown by culture. It wouldn't be prudent for a peaceful civ like ours to raze.

Pretty confident on the team here, ideas carried are pretty much what I had in mind myself:biggrin: About reg warriors/settlers/workers, I'm all for it, but I think barracks should not be such luxuries, once we have horses, so we can start building our army of jumbos. Aside from that, I think we should stick to grans/temples/raxes/markets in most instances, temples in the frontlines and raxes in the high-prod cities mainly. Note that if we don't find horses, we shouldn't build barracks much earlier than chivalry: jumbos are the spearhead of what we want to do, isn't it? :whipped:

For research, I'd go writing at full speed, then try our shot at CoL->Philo->Republic, all at max speed. This often makes for very good trading opportunities, especially with our monopoly on alphabet. I'd suggest not trading writing before we have philosophy started, so that we can less likely be beat to philosophy.

If our first-out scout finds a couple good food cities AND we haven't been able to get it off alpha/burial, we could take pottery after writing. I take it we'll gamble on not taking pottery first - to gamble or not to is fine by me, since republic can be much rewarding, for us as a government and as trade money.

On a personnal note, I started playing 3 months ago, made my way through to regent the first week, then onto emperor with this site's help and I'm slowly moving onto demi-god on what spare time I have off school work. I thought of SG's as a relaxed way to keep playing while setting back from the computer a bit to prepare my term exams :beer:
I do MM quite a bit, especially units during war - long exposure to warcraft does that to you.

Prepare for a lot of stupidities from me and whacky renamed units when I went through my 10 turns. I'll volunteer for any order in the roster, so if everyone else is too shy to take the first one ;)

Just call me B, it's the short I usually go by, online. Glad to be part of this, we'll have a blast [pimp]

testfile wouldn't load, civ tells me he's got date errors of some sort ... care to try again?

Just call me B, it's the short I usually go by, online. Well you can't get any shorter than that! :D

Agreed on rax building, BTW.

I haven't tried the save yet. I'm trying to get my QSC finished for GOTM41 but I keep getting sidetracked. When I get to 1000BC I'll switch discs. Then again maybe I should go to bed soon as it's 3:30am.

@B
Fearless initiatives are Go which makes you our starter. I also like the idea of the mod. not to make the first moves, just provide the map.

Wacko renaming is in absoulte order. We will then have Heinz, Sven, Jean-Pierre & John :D . In some way naming the cities you build after yourself also makes it easier for us to track "who built what".


About the UU we will hopefully be able to provoke a declaration when the Phants have been stacked. Nice to get a later GA btw!
I go 100% with biggest research funding possible.
Starting pos should be cult linked so chanses are we have Genghis as the boy next door and he knows pottery (like Shaka & Monty). Mongols have tendency to come to you instead of the reverse so we could trade for that one i guess. The rep slingshot seems to be heavily promoted but I haven't used it myself so it will be a good learning experience. I've never been beaten by AI to Philo even with lazy research so I'd trade writing for say math. Yes, I do like artillery and think we should build a lot for fast wars.

I'll try another way of doing this so a link to my saved test file:
Testfile Here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Testfile4000.SAV)

"Rax" I can't find in the list of acronyms so fill me in Commander.

I already told something about myself.

I played civ III for quite some time, before I managed to get to emperor. I am more of an instinct player so exact computing of choices and mm isn't exactly what I love in that game. I do these things on sgs, though. Much easier to do that on 10 turns in a row than for 100 turns.

I prefer cxxxc in the core and cxxc outside with going for wider spacing if the landscape blocks cxxc.

For this game: Conquest and Domination are the only victory conditions enabled, so every war brings us closer to winning, and without the ability to declare war ourselves we will have problems. Preventing wars in AA should be important, afterwards we should hope for them.

Personally I believe that conquest is out of reach. Domination is what we go for.

With raging barbs we definitely want some archers early on, so trade for warrior code on first contact with another civ. Don't research it ourselves, everyone has it. Also we need a strong offensive force from the beginning to take advantage of every war.

We have to play this more like a typical warmongering game. Hopefully some of the AIs will pick on each other.

Settle: on spot, worker to any bg by the river.

Build: warrior, warrior, settler, barracks or barracks, settler. If there is a food bonus in the fog that is in the 21 of the capital, change settler, barracks to granary, settler.

Research: with only the Vikings having alpha our chances to get philo first are really great, so I'd go for writing at min, switching to max as soon as we can, after researching pottery. Alpha will get us most first layer techs. Go for philo second if there is no ivory close by, else math for SoZ.

Another quality wonder will we ToA. We will get cultural dominance easily, which will drastically decrease flip propabilities in conquered towns, plus these cities will be happier, start to build culture and expand borders.

So if we don't have ivory near, get myst before philo comes in, start building the oracle, take poly as free tech and change the building to ToA.

I don't think we will need the Great Lib. The other civs will go to war much, which will slow down their research pace.

do we really want to prevent wars? Only in the early stages when the AI has a unit advantage and we won't be ready to fight. There'll be plenty of archers around (promoted to elite due to barbs?) when all we have is just a couple of reg warriors. We need to fight when we are ready.
We have to play this more like a typical warmongering game. Hopefully some of the AIs will pick on each other.Agreed!
..without the ability to declare war ourselves we will have problems. but not too much IMO. We can goad the AI into declaring by stopping trading and then issuing an ultimatum repeatedly (is that allowed in our game?). Once they are furious I don't think that it will take much for them to declare. What would be really sneeky is if we can have plenty of troops to upgrade (appearing weak), they declare on this basis and then we upgrade our troops and knock them for six! If they have troops in our territory and we goad them before demanding that they leave, they will probably declare war no matter how strong we are. :)

We can goad the AI into declaring by stopping trading and then issuing an ultimatum repeatedly (is that allowed in our game?).

This might be against the spirit of the variant. It is Daghdhas decision though.

I would be happy to see no demands for tribute. It would make the game more interesting!

We have to play this more like a typical warmongering game. Hopefully some of the AIs will pick on each other.
Agree also and with aggression cranked up to max AI will definetly fight eachother...constantly. That will of course have impact on research agenda. I like to do max research but maybe we don't have to since AI will be slow anyway! Then we could save a deacent stash of gold for the sugessted "surprise upgrade" (love the idea).

I would say breaking deals is a No for us. Remember we R good manners, but (very politely) demanding tribute is Go. Look upon it as we ask neighbours to contribute to the proliferation of good peaceful culture. The more they give us, the less they can spend on military and that is good from a moral point of view, nicht wahr?
If goading AI into declaring this way makes the game too easy we'll take it to Emp. next time :D
I like the idea of annoying military/aggressive civs repeatedly!

If they have troops in our territory and we goad them before demanding that they leave, they will probably declare war no matter how strong we are

This is definetly a payback tactic! We can sign RoP's and will probably only have AI troops with RoP on territory since we give instant boot orders to others. That means AI declaration before they reach our heartland or they're off. AI has option to backstab and declare while having a RoP with us but we'll be prepared for that following them closely (but out of 1 turn range) and luring them into open space:).

About early/late wars we'll see how our Moral Mean Machine e.g. military develops. In general I'd like to see it offensive and big from early on.

Very interesting views on research path and quite diversed. L's point on ToA is very valid when going for domination but I guess a definite decision is to be made when some progress have been made. I tend to let AI build GW's for me and then conquer them but that can be tricky in this game. If ToA is built by big nearby neighbour city, we might want to snatch it instead of building it ourselves.

Is there any place left? I'm a EMP/DemiGod player actually chocking Lullaby in Whoknows2 with warry offers.:)
I can fill the french place in your roster;)
I'm actually in two Space SG, I need some :ar15: :hammer: :sniper: :ninja: :drool:

@Kahn
Team's full but you could sign up as a sub if you like. An obviously mad frenchman up our sleeve would be an asset if you like the setup.

About tech paths, on monarch we should be able to get republic first "kindof" easily, especially if we gamble on not going pottery early - which is a big gamble however.

I'll take inputs before starting, I think all following naturally fit into what we want, in the long run:
1. Pottery first, then aim for Monarchy, use Oracle as a pre-build and get ToA. Max research. :king: Monarchy will allow us no WW, but will not give us as good an option on mass horse upgrades.

2. Try #1 but find ivory with our scouts: aim for currency and get SoZ through palace pre-build. Early marketplaces will kick some ass, then we can research writing at min and buy w/e we want. Max research through to Maths, then whatever fits. :whipped: <- That's how they'll feel with our ancient cavs around.

3. Do the big gamble and go Writing-CoL-Philo-Republic(Free):drool: It works for me most of the time on Monarch, it never failed me when I started with alpha, it shouldn't fail us especially since only :viking: has alpha. It's not the only option, but it should work and kick our income way, way up. I'd naturally go for currency after, for markets, though that is farther up in time.

I'll confirm the file works tonight(not at home atm) and play once I have a concensus on what I need to research first. My vote order is 3-2-1.

Edit: neither worked, conquests couldn't open either of the files. If it fails again, should I generate starts up until we get something similar, off the same settings?

I couldn't open it either. :(

Is that a c3c 1.22 save?

I have a full patch with barab fix but no other add ons so I suppose it will fit all in the team.I read that as meaning v1.22 and 'no AI patrol=0'. Can you confim, Daghdha?

@Kahn
Team's full but you could sign up as a sub if you like. An obviously mad frenchman up our sleeve would be an asset if you like the setup.
OK Thank you Daghdha. I'll lurk.

@B
Workable tactics all of them. I'd say skip res. (tired of typing researching)pottery. We will be able to trade for it quite soon with exp. neighbours knowing it. As you noticed I'm a SoZ-fan but terrain will decide. If we find it, do max. res. on math, then "whatever" could lead to an early rep. anyway. If we're even in tech up to starting philo. a commecial India on max res. could well be the ones to grab it. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic about that :confused: but it would be tempting. So my vote is #3 and search for ivory during writing res., if we haven't found it when writing is dicovered then proceed. If we do, then switch to math instead of CoL and go for SoZ. CB and Alpha gives us bad pre building but hopefully we have traded for Masonry or BW by then.

About the downloading I'm stuck without C3C until tomorrow. I've followed the instructions within the sticky but there must be some flaw in how I do it. Are you aware of common probs. with this? Maybe I have overlooked some basic requirement :mischief: . Please direct me to relevant info. on this if you know where to find it. I'm rather :crazyeye: when it comes to technical detail but will do my least bad to get it going.

v1.22 and 'no AI patrol=0' confirmed.

I'll have to check the barb fix when I get home but it has worked well since I installed it. Obviously the problem lies in my knee and I'm a wee bit ashamed not beeing able to post a decent save when starting a SG, but knowlege in the team seems high enough to compensate for my pc-stupidiy.
So the first misson for the team will be to tutor the moderator in proper posting :crazyeye:

@L
Nice avatar + sig
Edit: neither worked, conquests couldn't open either of the files. If it fails again, should I generate starts up until we get something similar, off the same settings?
Fine with me but once we're off I must be able to post anyway so I guess I'll have to work on it either way. Generate a few just in case :goodjob:

This is how I do it Daghdha.

I get my Atari folder, then click Civ complete, then Conquests, then Saves. Grab the one you want and move that save to the desktop.

Once I get to the thread I hit "go advanced". From here it says "manage attachments" click this, hit browse, (your desktop shows) click on your save, hit upload and it should be there.

There is another way at the bottom of the page where it says "upload file" and there once I browse, load and then go to the "upload center9" I can copy and paste in the save. This is usually the place I go when I have multiple pictures I want to post. By wrapping blah.jpg I can post pictures in between turnsets.
Hopefully this wasn't too long of an explaination.

@ whomp

Ahh, how I appreciate helpfulness :worship:

testfile wouldn't load, civ tells me he's got date errors of some sort ... care to try again?

Some kind of Bingo! here. When I try to load a .SAV from this here forum (tried a couple of the recent ones) I get a box saying "Data IO operation System Error: DATE". Something has to be fishy with my settings but I have no idea what it could be :confused: . Can play but can't upload/download.

try a new clean installation with only the civIII 1.29 and c3c 1.22 patches added.

same error, that must be it

I've done a clean sweep and re-installed the whole banana. Well, not much changed :(
Have written a pm to ainwood about it since he delt with a similar problem in the tech support forum. Sadly enough I didn't get wise by reading that thread. We'll see if anything good happens before I go skiing tomorrow. If not I'll do a retry on thursday. If things still don't work out :mad: I leave it to the team to go on with the game without me or wait for me to get on track. You've been most patient with this but that's maybe what to expect with a bunch of good guys :goodjob:

:mad:If nothing happens, or something bad does:
I'll roll starts up until we have the same kind of position: same civs, same map tileset, on river, grasslands with hills/forests/plains near, but no shore and no lux. I'll post a picture of it before settling friday night (at worse) and will wait for comments if settling on place isn't the obvious choice - though it shouldn't happen if I'm patient enough to get a really similar start.

:coffee:If something good happens:
I'll be glad to see that happen as it solves the whole map re-creation problem. I'll, of course, play the original file.

In any case, I'll play it by Saturday PM (at worse), and since the roster isn't made up yet I'll just say
B <- Up
Lullaby <- On deck
Chunky Kong
Tone
Daghda <- Last in case he needs time


Any problems will be dealt with :ar15: ... swiftly. :ar15::ar15::ar15::suicide:

Sounds good to me B but will you confirm that you've read
As for the kick off it will be apr. 8th. I'll be off for some skiing fri-tue so a bit of a delay suits me fine. In the meantime we can start planing the campaign. in an earlier post and by Saturday mean 9:th apr.
I realize now that I maybe should have waited a while with my first post, but I didn't think I would get interest and sign up's so quickly :D
Btw, I made a new avatar more appropriate to my computer skills ;)
Edit: Oh, and I'm not so pickish when it comes to starting positions. I kind of take what comes up if it's not suicidal

I hope ainwood can solve your problem. It seems kind of strange that we are about to start playing your game without you! :hmm:

My own jester-ish troubleshooting has lead to the conclusion that files posted on civfanatics.net, like GOTM, works fine when I load them, but files loaded from forums.civfanatics.com doesn't. Since we won't be doing our posting via civfanatics.net (I suppose :confused: ) I will just have to see what ainwood comes up with. I've sent some of the test files for him to look at. Maybe I'll have some directions by tomorrow morning.

Btw I ran a trial with a whole diff start but same settings and got bushwhacked by Mongols before I could say Ta-Tu, he, he.

Sorry for the week difference, my brain farts like that. I propose to let everything else but the dates stand though: unless I've made a mega-dual brain fart :vomit:, it seemed sensible.

Since you will be playing just before me, I suggest you send the images and saves directly to my email, I'll PM it to you. No significant size limit on it either, so as far as this game is concerned, throw in anything you care to, and I'll be glad to post it in here whenever I check it.
I realize now that I maybe should have waited a while with my first post, but I didn't think I would get interest and sign up's so quickly
Never underestimate the power of a simple, efficient and borderline-stupid reason to play civ over, over and over again.

I'm back. Just so you know.

Any news/progress?

Daghda was gone on a ski trip, hasn't mentionned when he'd be back exactly; I just take it he'll be back here by friday or saturday, since it was the time he meant to start it. Don't worry, patience pays off ;)

Hi Guys, just came back from a 6hr drive so I'm a bit :sleep: but here's the score: ainwood sent a mess requesting confirmation on details 2 hr after I left so he hasn't been able to look into my tech problem. I replied just now so we'll see what happens. B's :mad: plan in earlier post has a Go from me anyway but hopefully I'm up and running til then.
@Chunky
Good to here from you. Whaddya think of strategy in short?

...and skiing has been :cool:

Payback setup:
Civ: India
Rivals: Mongols, Zulu, Germany, Aztecs, China, Japan & Scandinavia
AI aggression: Max
Barbarians: Raging
Landmass: 70% Continents
Climate: Wet, Warm, 4 billion
Seed: 13 (was going through the Fermat numbers, gone through to 89 (the 10th), only 2 looked like our start and one had no lux within first 13's)

Attitude: PAYBACK TIME

4000 Move NW, Worker W, start irrigating. Plan on going war-work-granary to build up a faster 6-turn factory (not enough shields for a 4-turn if we chop the game).
Once we reach size 5, it'll be warrior(2) settler(4) for as long as we need those. Just make sure it never riots and it is working on the wheat, BG and game, it'll work by itself.

3950 Settle near a goody hut and WHAM get pottery (omg the luck, now it's all over so don't expect more)

3500 Bubba spots Shaka and the latter is polite. He's up Mysticism and WC, we are up alpha. Feel no hurry to trade for those techs.

3350 Temujin is also polite to Bubba. He is down alpha/mysticism, so I get a + 11 gold run on selling him the mysticism we just bought.

3250 Spot wines and Mongol borders, planning on a run for it with our first settler.

3000 Last turn: Granary is about to be done. Both leaders are up on me by BW; I did not trade for alphabet because one guy knowing it is enough already, and his spare 5 gold are not enough profit for my taste. I suggest making a settler right after the gran to race the wines and play forecheck with Bubba to deny them it, but that's just me. If they win the race, we have a good wheat on a river close-by, so not all is lost.

SS and save pending.

Thus the first 20 turns are played. If we are doomed, you guys all will be relieved of guilt because after all, it is I who started this mess, right? :wallbash:

Roster:

B <- Just played
Lullaby <- Up
Chunky Kong <- On Deck
Tone
Daghda

So, Be ready everyone, this is a go :D

Just had a look at the save. It's a nice starting position. The wines look very tempting but I doubt that we'll get them :( Still it could be worth a try. A well timed forest chop could help the first settler out and maybe reveal the secong bg that we need for a four-turn settler factory.

The wheat looks tasty as well with all those bgs around. A couple of towns SW of the river could share this tile and pump out a mixture of warriors and settlers. Only question is how much room have we got?

What kind of city spacing do we want?

Well done B :goodjob: . Wines are yummy so yeah, go for 'em L! Looks lika a nice "productive" area. Next scouting would be S/SE, hopefully E/NE is ours and with some furs (and a can smell a barb camp in that direction too). I must add (from the look of the pic.) that I admire the balls to leave Dehli undefended with raging barbies :crazyeye: (crazy balls)
@Kahn
If I'm not ready to go when it's my turn, You're It :D
@Chunky
I usually go CXXC or CXXXC but that's me. If I expect to go to early war, like in this game, I think a tight and productive core helps. I'm reluctant to leave small, weakly defended cities far from my cap. in a game with highly aggressive mongols and immediate boot orders. Downside is of course a slower expansion tilewise.
I'd like this game to leave room for personal preferences as long as they don't completely contradict a team direction. If we have same style of playing we will probably be a strong team, if we pull in different directions we won't be but that's OK as long as we have fun and respect each other.
@Lullaby
Just noted a brilliant motto for our game: "Every war brings us closer to winning" posted earlier by you.

Keep the scouting low in the beginning and scout the immediate surroundings first. With all those aggressive militaristic AIs out there we don't want to know them all to soon. Better if they get on each other first.

I'd suggest cxxc city placement everywhere. This game will surely be something in between OW and AW.

And focus on military early on.

@L
Sounds great. I'm all confidence about your turns and eager to see the result.
@B
Looks like Snoopy's mod, what version? Are the little "snow turds" with trees BG or just Yeti greetings?

got it....

City Spacing: I'm a fan of CxxC, but we might have to build erratic cities close to the center to have river cities that do not waste the BG's, like one NW and one S of the wheat.

Wines: Bubba will need to get some luck as to where he makes obstruction, but the point is to cross-check the incoming mongol settler, in such a way that he'll have to settle on at most 2 of the wines.
Their first target will most likely be the N wine or the spot right S of it, since they are out of the capital's cultural border. I'd sit Bubba on the N wine and move S if they come by anyways. Given they are going for that spot, they'll back up or find another spot; guess is on what tile do they exactly want to settle.
It can be done, if we get some luck; we'll probably only need to buy 3 or 4 turns that way, or a city on 2 wines/3 from them.

Mod: I use snoopy's, but I saw those BG's somewhere in the mods section and I like them because they show up through mines.

Military: Agreed we need to put some effort into military stuff early; I guess we could use a barrack for all those 6-turn warriors to be vets. I'd like to see the japs soon so we can buy the wheel and make horses early - horses will be much better than archers or spears for dealing with raging barbs.

Turn 0, 3000 BC:
Trade possible: give alphabet to Temujin for BW and 5g. Not enough I say.

IBT: nothing special

Turn 1, 2950 BC:
nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 2, 2900 BC:
raise lux to 20% because of pop growth

IBT: nothing special

Turn 3, 2850 BC:
nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 2800 BC:
nothing special

IBT: Delhi granary -> settler
Mongols settle wines completely. No surprise.

Turn 5, 2750 BC:
nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 6, 2710 BC:
nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 7, 2670 BC:
nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 8, 2630 BC:
raise lux to 30%

IBT: nothing special

Turn 9, 2590 BC:
nothing special

IBT: Delhi settler -> warrior

Turn 10, 2530 BC:
settler sw
lux to 10%

Dotmap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_IndianPayback_2550BC.jpg

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_IndianPayback__2550_BC.SAV)

Suggestions:

1. Delhi could be easily turned into a 4 turn settler factory cycling 5 -> 7 by chopping and mining the game, but only at high lux tax cost as we don't have any luxies nearby. It will run 40% lux at size 6, 30% with a temple.

2. A trade is possible with Temujin: give alphabet for BW and 11 gp. He's got more than 11 gp, so you won't get more.

3. the second city should be a unit/worker factory. MINE THE WHEAT, NOT IRRIGATE to get +3 fpt and warrior + worker every 4 turns.

4. Every other city should build a rax early and produce either warriors, archers or spears until we get either iron or horses online.

DON'T FORGET TO BOOT THE ZULU WARRIOR IF HE DARES ENTER OUR TERRITORY. Could be a short game with no military in Delhi ;).

TESTSAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Illbedamned.SAV)
1:st of all, try opening attachment in this post. I've done a double so please tell me if it/they work properly. Thanks to ainwood I'm now able to open the payback saves on my pc, at least L's latest so hopefully it'll work both ways.
2:nd, what the story on a "dotmap". Do you create it yourself or is it utility?
3:rd, well done L but I would be cautious about mining the wheat. There's a lot of shields there allready and we shouldn't panic even if we haven't "expolded" over the map. I'd settle first one on nearest red dot and second on lone hill 2 NW of mtn to get all 4 BG's in one sweep. That could be a very productive frontline tw Mongols and good defended prevent them from settling to NE. Third settler could sneak S to look for lux. We need some ivory to keep research (and SoZ :D ) going.
About Delhi I don't think it'll be a problem. If Shaka declares we will allready have a warrior there and if 2:d city is founded but undefended he will prob. go there instead. Then our well educated and peaceful defender of high morale can whack him from behind in open field. I would move worker by Dehli along with settler thou or he be toast if Shaka declares.

Emperor Brennus of the Celts greets you from the working save file, Daghda.

Had not thought about chopping/mining the game, though we will need highly productive cities around for military - and we'll need them fast. My suggestion is to go for the first obvious red dot, then settle on the hill SSS of Delhi.

General thought about the future: I'd feel compfortable whipping a temple, we'll need the culture. We could send a raiding party up the wines city sometimes, as I'm sure we can give a boot order too many to Temujin by 1000BC.

As for the red dot, it's an ancestral tradition to paint those on maps, and it has always been done in the crudest, most primitive fashions, to my knowledge. I use paint (*cough* red paint oin my monitor, of course *cough*), don't know about him.

I use MS paint for the dotmap and MS imaging for conversion into .jpg files. No magic in it.

I doubt there are any tools for automatic dotmap creation out there. Dotmaps are too dependent from the general surroundings, the game settings, the victory condition we aim for etc.

We could place the third city on the hill SSS of Delhi for better defense, but this will cost shields in the long run. Both is fine with me, we might need the defense bonus.

The lux problem in Delhi and the soon to be founded Bombay will get small with 2 mp in each, going down to 10% at size 5 and 20% at size 6 if we run the sf from 5 to 7.

Generally build productive core cities first. Aggessive city placement might get us into a war before we are ready for it. We first need to get a respectable force of archers together.

Build cities to the w and sw before going for the less productive core cities to the ne.

Just a note on Ta-Tu, we can't fight for it when it's pop 1 and no culture. That would mean razing it and, well, we just can't.

The question is if we allow autoraze as we don't *intentionally* raze the city.

Tricky sort of moral question that is... :hmm: ... You're right in us don't actually deciding on razing but then again we know that it will be razed... :hmm: ...maybe if we said "sorry" before the last defender falls it would be allright... :hmm: ...*taking a long walk thinking it over*...I've decided on Go for autorazing but never ever without saying "sorry" first :lol:

Am I up, then?

Edit: >_<

Is this by any chance, a Conquests game?

It is a 1.22 conquests game.

As for razing, I disagree about saying sorry. Saying sorry just after you slap someone still leaves a red mark on his face.

@B
I agree, but we'll have to remember that we will slap the one declaring war on us and that is sort of an excuse in my opinion. It's like we do what we have to do even if we don't like it.
I'm not all that comfortable with making up the rules myself so the team may decide by majority vote here. "Saying sorry" was of course tounge in cheek, but I encourage rules that is in line with the spirit of the game so I'll leave the decision to the team. Tone and Chunky, what are your two cents on this?
Lullaby (as I understand) and me is GO, B is No.

Sorry, I'm going to have to pull out. I don't have Conquests. I didn't see anything mentioning Conquests in the initial post...

Sorry Chunk, should have mentioned it was c3c. We'll meet somewhere else ;) . I gave our mad frenchman Kahn 9 hrs to sub for Chunky or I will do the turn instead. Don't know if this is the correct way to do it but...
Tone, you'll be up after me in that case and then I play again, and from there Kahn takes Chunkys place.
So:
Lullaby->played
Kahn->Up
Tone->On deck
Daghdha
Beorn

edit: I did mention C3C explicitly in the game registry...

Here are the results of my ~10 turns

2510
Bubba shadows Zulu warrior, worker follows settler W
Lux raised to 20%

2470
Dehli warrior->archer since making 7 spt.
Lux down to 10%
Daghdhapuhr founded, starts on warrior
Bubba is assigned to a recon mission down south and wanders off smiling

2430
Our little empire soon to be is taking a ZZZZ
Genghis offers 13 g's for alpha and is politely told to keep on sign languageing

2390
Res down to 70% to make 2+ and still have writing in 4 turns

2350
Delhi produces Jeffery the Archer and is set to make one more before nxt settler
Jeffrey is sent to guard Daghdhapuhr
Lux up to 20%

2310
Writing in 2 at 50% gives 3+

2270
Digger Bros starts working wheat by D-puhr
res down to 40% gives 5+ and soon our neighbours will start smelling our gold

2230
Learns Writing, starts on CoL at max = 80% 21 turns
Dehli archer->settler
Alpha to Genghis for 13 g's
Writing to Shaka for Wheel+BW+4 g'snet loss -1 which seems ok and we're slowly gaining on Mongos and Zulus in score/power

2190
D-puhr warrior->Rax and horses within it's borders
Digger bros starts mining BG at D-puhr for shields
Bubba spots dyes in the south by Zulu border, probably unreachable

2110
Really stupid planning :wallbash: lets Dehli grow to 7, sorry guys.
Writing+13 g's to Genghis for IW

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_2110BC.JPG

Since I'm new to this I screwed up the turns/log a bit but not too much. Only big drawback was the Dehli pop7 stupidity but otherwise I think we're doing fine. Mongos and Zulus are a bit ahead but not much. Getting IW was good so we can see that B's city suggestion was the superior. We'll settle on hill and get def bonus and a lot of bg's. Horses are fine too for future Jumbo army. Maybe we're luckier with resourses than lux? Only free space is in gap btw mongos and zulus so I vote for Bubba to go there.
So Tone, will you take it from here then? I'll do 10 after you and then we're rolling on schedule if Kahn subs for Chunky.

The save is HERE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_Indian_Payback,_2110_BC.SAV)

OK, I'm in the middle of something at the moment but I'll pick it up later and play tomorrow (once I've reminded myself of the game rules :) ).

Drop settler on iron?

If Delhi is so food rich maybe we need another worker or two?

I gave our mad frenchman Kahn 9 hrs to sub for Chunky or I will do the turn instead. Don't know if this is the correct way to do it but... I think it would have been 24h, but w/e.

Iron: if we found on it, we won't get the bonus shields from it before we reach size 7, which might take a while. I suggest we found on the non-BG NE of it.

Dyes: do we have any shot at them? If we have enough spare we could try and build an embassy @ Zimbabwe sometime to see how far it is from the Dyes and try to claim them. It could be worth it to send the 2nd next settler there. We'll have some good settler production sooner than later, so I say get 3 of them really quick, then a worker by each city and continue settler/warrior/horses production after. We need workers now, be it only for the horses and towns to be connected, but the dyes can be a very paying gamble.

Good scouting

Iron: if we found on it, we won't get the bonus shields from it before we reach size 7 I have so much to learn from you guys :lol: .

You might wanna link that up the first post:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2080

Scroll down to the big red START HERE

Not quite sure what you mean by bonus shields but we will have *two* shields in our centre if we found on the iron. In the long term we lose out production wise as a mined iron hill is worth four (but we gain an extra food) but we will have that extra production from the start. How long before we get that hill mined?

If we settle on the hill a size two town this close to our capital can pump out a sword every six turns with a couple of mined bgs and still be growing.

If you are aware of this and don't want to settle on the iron, fine. Please just clarify what you mean as 'bonus' as we do get the base tile shield value in our town centre.

Both sites has obviously pros and cons. I'd settle on the hill for early swords but maybe a bit patience is in order and we mine it later for shields. It's your call Tone and I'm happy with it either way you choose.

Hi all, sorry I didn't see your PM D I was celebrating my B-day.
I see the save, will play tonight when I get a bit familiar with this all and recover from last night.
And BTW, to be honest, you're commiting a game with a crazy Bulgarian, not French.

I see the save, will play tonight when I get a bit familiar with this all and recover from last night.@Daghdha : This swapping around with the roster has obviously caused some confusion! How about I let our new team member play this next turn set and then I play after? Suggested roster:

(Daghdha just played one-off turn set)
Kahn->Up
Tone->On deck
Daghdha
Beorn
Lullaby

@ Kahn: just make sure that you pick up D's last save and not Lullaby's!

@Kahn
No need to apologize. I gave you very short notice because we had this delay with Chunky signing off and I was eager to get the play rolling. I'm glad to see you're ready to play. We follow Tone's suggestion and like he said, pic. my save and not L's. Good Luck :goodjob:

Edit:
Well, Bulgarian may be even more crazy :lol: and btw :bday:

Thank you. Actually I failed to play it yesterday (I NEED SLEEP. WHAT IS THIS. A BED!!! PERF...), this morning I'm a bit sleepy at work. Will play tonight as I need more time to get into the game.
And sorry again for the mess I have caused in the roster.
In fact if Tone can take it until tonight I can pick it later. I'll leave at about 18H local time.

You two work that out and I'll be cool. I'm hesitant to scrabble with the roster once more :lol:

Kahn, I can play this evening if you can't. I'll post a got it at around 6pm GMT but if you can play first, just let us know here and I'll wait for my turn when you've finished. I'm in no great rush as my turn has come up in another SG and I'd rather keep the roster as it stands but I guess that D and the team want to get moving with this game now that we've actually started so it's up to us to keep the pace up!

Actually I played.
I've got it.
(0) MM a little bit Delhi - working the lake gives gold and food. Turn 41 ??? I'll go until 51.
We're equal with the others, Republic slingshot will be hard to do, but this is monarch.
Our workers are stacked. It's quite underefficient. One of them will road so we'll waste less turns. Why isn't the wheat roaded?
(IBT) The other civs are allready fighting. :cool: How nice of them. Mongols take Ulundi.
(1) Delhi settler-temple
I decide to build the next city on the hill next to the Iron.
Lux to 10, CoL in 15.
(2) Dagdhapur can share Delhi's wheat and become a second worker-settler factory, I switch it on granary. You can veto this but we need it.
Damn, there's a zulu settler near the Iron! I need 1 turn to settle...
(IBT) Phew, zulus run away.
(3) Madras founded near the Iron. Set on curragh. Zulu have a worker to sell, but I pass. They are allready gassed and only have their capital. This is dangerous.
(4) Zulu warrior enters our lands. I ask them to leave, no declare option for now. Delhi temple-worker
(5) Zulu warrior continues through our lands. I ask him to leave again, but still have no Leave or declare option. What is going on???
(6) Finally the option is "... or declare". They leave. Zulus are still OCC. Delhi worker-warrior
(7) Delhi warrior - settler, will be finished with growth.
(8) Forest chop near D-puhr showed BG. Granary in 4 growth in 5. Mongols know HBR. CoL due in 4. Zulus have finally settled their second city, I think the peace have been declared.
(9) Nothing new
(10) Delhi settler - barracks. I'll leave him for the next player. I'd send him out on that river.
I have conciently avoided roading horses and iron, we dont need them yet. Let's expand, we have 2 cities with good food output.
I have taken several decisions without being sure that the team agrees them. Sorry if it wasn't the way you saw things.
It's the turn 52... Sorry, I must have made 11 turns. At least it's round (I always say that...)

Well done Kahn, I think your gosthly avatar scared the hell out of that Zulu settler :lol: . How about we denying Genghis the horse SW? We got one already and I would be surprised if it were 3 on our nearby territory. Not a No1 priority perhaps but good if we could.

As you'll soon note I'm no hot shot (follow Blind-thread in sig.) so corrections after my turns are perfectly allright. If you'd care to breifly say why they're done I'm only happy to read n learn and will take no offense what so ever.

Well done Kahn, I think your gosthly avatar scared the hell out of that Zulu settler :lol:
I bet it did :D
If you'd care to breifly say why they're done I'm only happy to read n learn and will take no offense what so ever.
Well, in my worker management strategy I avoid sending more than 1 worker on an unroaded tile, and he doesn't leave it if it's not at least roaded. This way we have only 1 turn wasted for the move. I can stack them later, on the already roaded tile, to improve faster but without losing other worker turns.
As for the 2 workers stacked, they were almost efficient, building mine in 2X3 turns. But after, they would have to road, which takes 3 turns and there would have been a turn wasted.
I've set one of them to road, so the road was ready before the mine and he was able to move without wasting turns, while the other finished the mine.
Basicaly that's all, I'm trying to maximize the work done for the time spent.
As for the builds, with two irrigated wheats D-puhr is better settler factory than Delhi, and the other cities can build military.

Anybody out there?
Just wanted to mention, it's Khan and not Kahn...

Sorry, Khan it is and Khan it will be. Well I'm kind of wating on Tone to take his turns and I wanted the two of you to sort the roster order out. You did great but our friend Tone seems to have lost track. If he hasn't shown up until tomorrow I'll take it. Off to work all night so can't do anything right now.

I ended up not playing any civ last night but consider this a 'got it'.

ps sorry Khan!

turn 0 (1700)
No mm needed. settler 3SE towards river.

IBT
Madras: Cur>rax. borders expand to show barb in the north. Treasury falls below 10gp.

turn 1 (1675)
workers move to unroaded bgs as they cannot pair up to mine the same tile being on different sides of the river. Curr heads SE and then our southern warrior meets the Germans. They have 29g but don't have Alpha or Myst. Give them Alpha for their gold which will be useful for our research Reduce research by 10% and still get CoL next turn.

IBT
CoL>Phil @100%
D-puhr: gran>worker

turn 2 (1650)
nothing special

turn 3 (1625)
Germany now has Masonry but they want cash as well as techs and I want to keep the tech rate up so decline to trade.

IBT
D-puhr: worker>settler;

turn 4 (1600)
Delhi has grown to size 6 but I hire an entertainer as the rax is achieved next turn anyway.

IBT
Delhi: rax>warr (then settler next turn for when pop grows)

turn 5 (1575)
Build Bangalore (rax). Up lux for a turn to get 10sh/turn in Delhi. Group 3 workers to mine and use the fourth to road southwards.

IBT
Mongols clearly still at war with Zulu
Delhi: warr>settler

turn 6 (1550)
Reduce lux, zzz

turn 7 (1525)
more mining, zzz

IBT
Germans are building the Pyramids

turn 8 (1500)
Reduce research a little (Phil in 2 turns) but leave major drop for next turn.

IBT
Delhi: settler>settler; D-Puhr: settler>settler.

turn 9 (1475)
Reduce research to 20% and still get Phil next turn. Settlers left for you, D!

Looking at it this looks like a good place to hand over. Two settlers to place but as the next person will develop the sites they can decide where to put them-just look out for the barbs in the north!

Feel free to switch builds-republic slingshot next turn presumably and then revolution may make it a little food rich in some towns by the time we become a republic. Get prepared to use that lux slider once we ride out the revolution!


Daghdha->Up
Beorn->On deck
Lullaby
Khan
Tone (just played)

Got It!
Indeed a nice place to start my 10. Good work Tone!
Any strong opinions on city cites anyone?

I was thinking of keeping up the land grab by settling towards our neighbours. My thoughts are in the screenshot attached.

If it were me playing a single game, I would be looking to chop the game and using that with a third city placed on the hills (or using it with Delhi and mining the hills to the NW). Maybe the group can re-consider the decision not to chop the game now that we are about to get out of despotism and can use the hills in our shield poor capital? If this is agreed then I would postpone site 2 in the diagram and go for the hills next to both the game and fish and get some workers developing that site.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=87016&stc=1

OK guys, I've done some turns, slingshot hit home, Shaka demanded but didn't dare declare but Temu did so we're at war with Mongos. I would like you to take a brief look at WAR SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_war_save_1375_BC.SAV) and give your 2 cents on it. We have almost no troops and only settler W is escorted. My suggestion is we bring home settlers, put one in Tone's hill spot E Dehli and change to unit prod all over. I know you all are more experienced than me so I ask advice on how to proceed in general.
Also comments on research path, MapM is welcomed. Cheers!

I've had a very quick look (should be going to work!) and this is my take on things...

Lower lux to 10% now that we have some war-fever.

build on tundra (risky but worth it IMO) but bring home river settler.

get the three worker to road the horses next turn and then on to the tundra city. The bg in that direction will become part of D-puhr when you settle on the tundra.

complete rax in Madras (consider rushing for 48g) but switch Bangalore to military

complete settlers currently being built and send north (sorry haven't got time for dot map but tundra SE of fish is also a nice site) but then get Delhi producing archers/horse. D-puhr could get us workers if we feel that the northern site needs development (get the hills mined for high shield output) or walls and rax/military-take one forest from Delhi as it only needs 10 sh/turn.

Don't Panic! Our military may be small at the moment but get Delhi pumping out units supportede by the satellite towns and we'll hold them and then grab the wines!

This is brief as I'm in a hurry. Sorry!

We're a republic, are we?
Let Delhi and D-puhr pop units but dont let them grow above 7, we still have lands to settle.
That's the Idea of the variant, isn't it?
Crush them, D!

1475
Send settlers to counter Mongolian expansion.
Shaka demands CoL. Oh, how his old habit of being greedy will put him in trouble.... I decline of course
and he "Let's us live", how very wise of him if I may say so.
1450
Philosophy sling slams in and revolution starts
Clowns in Dehli and D-puhr
Starts on MapMaking
Bubba finds himself in Germ territory. Buys a Bratwurst and heads of for new discoveries.
1425
Republic
Raise lux to 20 to get D-puhr settler out in 5
Res. down to 20 for even net
Sells philo to Bismarc for mas. + 36g's which is all he has
Our brave curragh "The Wallflower" spots barbie camp and gems S Zulu.
1400
The Mining Crew mines on
Temu demands philo. and it seems like our "friends" are starting to get worked up. I say :nono:
:D Mongos Declare an unholy war upon the peaceloving Indians :D
1375
Settler SW is called home
Lux down to 10%
1350
Moscow settler ->warrior (emphasize growth and unit #)
Rush rax in Madras
1325
Madras Rax->warrior
Clown in D-puhr, will complete settler I 1 turn anyway
1300
D-puhr settler->warrior
res. down to 30%
Moscow warrior sent to E city to be founded. HE’S AUTOMATED SO WATCH OUT, sorry, but I guess that’s where you want him anyhow.
Khanalabad is founded starts on warrior
res up to 40%
mongol archer approaching Bang

Post Mortem Analysis
Now that we got our war I'm not sure it will be so beneficial, hehe. Mongols hasn't exactly stormed us so maybe the threats was rather empty. I have produced warriors to get numbers up as I learned the other day that invaders +1 is all it takes for successful defending. If mongols don't have masses of archers they won't take anything from us. Hopefully we will train som attackers to to get those wines. As always feel free to change this but with a brief note on why.
Two settlers are ready to fly but I wouldn't send them north un-escorted.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_1300_BC.SAV)

Daghdha
Beorn->Up
Lullaby->On deck
Khan
Tone

Cool :cool: I guess we'll all have cities on our nick in this game.
BTW I'll be offline this weekend (the last one, I'm finally getting hooked to the Net home next week).

Do we have some archers around or only warriors?
I'd like to take that wine city from the Mongols.

I don't think we have some yet, but it would take only a few turns to line up a dozen.
My vision is to let Daghdhapuhr and Delhi in a 5-7 cycle, building units and settlers.
I'll check the rules again, can we sign peace before they offer it?
Edit: we can't turn down peace offers (I hope we can negociate them), but can we issue some of those, D?

The rules say nothing about not sueing for peace. However, the Mongols won't listen for quite some time if we don't teach them a lesson.

@Lullaby & Team
Sueing for peace is NOT allowed! We will NOT kneel for the uncivilized attackers. They come to us if they dear.
Good the Q came up. I will edit Post #1.

Alright, good thing republic worked our way; I guess it is time to take our rightful wines off the mongolians. Will most likely play it tomorrow.

Go B Go! There are things the uneducated Temu would benefit from learning. Be his humble teacher for a few turns.

So Daghda, you want comments, here are some :gripe:

Although I enjoy teaching, a lot, I think this is more like ... time for consolidation. Temujin being despotic he will not mind to extend the war. We are researching map making ... might I ask why? We have our spare tech change in the republic beeline, so what would benefit us the most is beelining for currency, or for HBR. I'll lower research rate and bank up while I consolidate our land with workers and *cough* (I hate to say that) defensive units here and there.

Now that we are in republic, we don't need any kind of a force anywhere in our territory except for a few pesky barbs here and there - but then horsemen would be the perfect helpers here. Let's hope someone researches HBR so we can buy it.

I would plan on settling offensively into mongol territory and posting defensive units to hold our cities there. It could prove effective, as we could lose a city. Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say. I will use one of the 2 settlers we have got to go directly over the zulu dyes and culture-bomb it to our side.

Here it goes.

PT: a lot of micro, changing from warriors to spears, settlers, granaries or workers.

IBT Mongol archer heads south ... :dubious:

1275 BC Troops ordered to head towards our W and SW frontiers, 2 warriors will stand up on hills in the N to protect for barbs.

IBT The Wallflower survives a barb attack. Mongol troops headed our ways. ZukZuk the Zulu archer takes down a defender at Ulundi.

1250 BC Our border guards up north fail to take out a horseman before he comes in Delhi and steal our work on settler. Take out a mongol archer, not a HP of casualty. Daghdapur Spearman->worker.

IBT The Wallflower survives another barb attack. ZukZuk backs off Ulundi

1225 BC Defensive movement to ensure the security of archers. Found Karachi by the river.

IBT We lose a warrior scout to the mongols near Ulundi. warrior and archer headed to our newly founded Karachi by the river.

1200 BC Offensive defense around Karachi by the river.

IBT strange mongol move by an archer headed towards Karachi: he is heading directly inwards our territory - like right where he has nothing to do. He'll be intercepted.

1175 BC Kohlapur founded by the dyes. Some troop healing fortifications. Archer from WNW frontline backing up to travel on roads inland. OMG germany has both HBR and Map Making, so I buy both for the ridiculous sum of code of laws. Now ongoing Math-Currency at 50/20, +4.

IBT Mongols bring another archer to back up the odd one. Odd one intercepted and terminated, with spearman backup.

1150 BC Delhi settler->settler, probably the one before the last. Soon we will be up and running on massive horse production. Madras spearman-> horseman. Iron roaded. We're a couple barracks from major warfare ability.

IBT Oh my the mongol archer has a fork on 2 of our workers, so ...

1125 BC I'm forced to re-order workers and pray for our warriors on defense. Move warriors and archers around the spot. Maths in 4 gives me hope again. Temple in Kohlapur has been under construction for 2 turns now so I can rush it at a decent price and culture-bomb the dyes spot for our people. 2 workers are teaming to road all the way to that spot. Raze a barb camp north for 25.
1100 BC Bad news, our cultural overrun of Bapedi has not yet begun; we might need a library or a colosseum there as well. Don't really know how much longer we should pump settlers, because the longer we make settlers, the longer it gives us 1 support rather than 3, and we can make it be much more productive than that.

IBT Zulu impi and archers heading to Ulundi for the iron, casualties on both sides.

1075 BC Movement
1050 BC Delhi settler->settler. This one is sent north, 3 north-east of Cohmandgethmi. Culture bombard of the Zulu successful, 2 tiles of road to go. Increase sci budget for maths next turn.
1025 BC Budget back to 40/10. Barbarians threat eliminated in the north. Take down a defender of Ta-Tu, but wait for it to grow until a decisive assault. Currency in 18 at current rate.
1000 BC Discover Ivory by founding a city to the west, straight SE of Karakorum. Horseman underway to Ta-Tu. My wild guess is that they keep rushing units there, so it never grows, and our variant screws us quite a bit there.

Here's the save:

Next guy in the roster: Have fun with our peacekeeper task force. I backed them up because enemy territory occupation tends to make them paranoid and they whip rush units ... making their cities size one :whipped:
I suggest deforesting before roading the dyes.

Discussion:

We can no longer settle on land that is not well beyond our safe consolidation reach to the west, and we have got tundra up north, with no engineering in sight. I suggest we cool down on settler production and start to build up a horse armada, letting our cities grow past 7 for shields and gold and unit support. Blue red and yellow marks are spots that would be decent right now, even without the forestation we'll need to put there. One settler is already on the red dot.

Now do we want to race for the ivory in the SW? If so we should send the next settler directly there, to give it any chance. Thing is we might have the wines soon, and with the dyes, we won't need any lux tax any longer to keep people happy. Moreover so when our cities hit marketplaces. So is it worth it to race there or should we get a gold hill city NE on the blue spot?

My opinion over techs is to go construction next, since the chances are they won't have maths yet, but they could have researched polytheism by the time we get there.

Watch out for the war in the next few turns, guerilla warfare is bad for the economy, while big stacks make for less casualties. Be wise and prepare 6-7 strong attack troops before moving in... if they ever reach size 2 :(

One other thing I just thought of is we could use a culture bomb like Kahlpur for the wines; a size one city might be unresponsive to our will for it to grow, but it could be used the other way around. Consider this as my new top priority pick for settler activity. Wish I had thought of this 5 hours ago when playing, but oh well.

Aggressive and impressive :thumbsup:
The rules about autorazing aren't chiseled into stone yet. I said OK since we don't do it intentionally, you were more like no. What's Lul, Khan and Tone's take on this?
I like the idea of cultural warfare so the C-bombing is a fine alternative to pure steel.

The rules about autorazing aren't chiseled into stone yet. I said OK since we don't do it intentionally, you were more like no. What's Lul, Khan and Tone's take on this? I don't have a particularly strong view but I think that autorazing is still a deliberate action (in that we know what's going to happen as a result of a victory) so size 1 cities with no culture expansion are not valid targets IMO. However I am not that fussed either way. :undecide:

Personally I'd say pressing the raze-button after victory is forbidden, autorazing not.

In war, there always are some casualties. Autoraze simply takes note of that. It is *not* the same action as razing a city but simply accidentally reducing the city size to 0.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The turn set seems great so me.
I'd love to get this ivory for the SoZ. That will allow us to focus on culture. However, the city there would be extremely exposed. But IIRC, if we start the SoZ and lose the ivory afterwards, the SoZ will still be finished.

For me autorazing is deliberate, so forbidden.
Great turns Beorn.
I'd go for the Ivory. If we start SoZ, we can finish it without Ivory, but it won't produce AC.

So it seems like 3-2 in favor of NOT autoraze. So be it!

So it seems like 3-2 in favor of NOT autoraze. So be it!Well I did say that my view wasn't that strong so maybe just 2.6-2.4 in favour :D

I guess we'd better get our cultural war going then.

Tone with a 820AD Standard Deity Diplomatic Congrats :thumbsup:. Monarch and emperor players wanted huh. You've had a steep learning curve since you signed up on this one :lol: .
And, yes, cult bombing it has to be.

I know this sounds dodgy but I still consider myself an emperor/DG player. I chose my opponants with min aggression and yet I was flying by the seat of my pants in that game and was never in a position to win by military means. In fact I don't think I've ever won a Deity game other than Space or UN and I'm really trying to improve my warmonger skills. I'm now going to go for a peaceful Sid game just to bring me back down to Earth. :)

Turn 0, 1000 BC:
Switch Comangethmi to barracks.
Switch Karachi to barracks.
Switch Khanalabad to harbor.

Daghdapur should have built a temple instead of a rax. It can be at +5 fpt and will produce settlers/workers not military. Switching now would be a waste of shields though.

IBT:
Daghdapur rax -> settler

Turn 1, 975 BC:
Nothing special

IBT:
Delhi settler -> settler

Turn 2, 950 BC:
Moving in on Ta-tu. It is at pop 1.
Found Hyderabad at the n coast at the fish. Production on Harbor.
Raise lux to 2 due to pop growth in Daghdabad. As I said, a temple would have been more useful.
MM Delhi to get +5 fpt/6 spt and delegate shields to Khanalabad.

IBT: We may build the FP. I suggest Karachi or Bangalore. Switch Karachi to FP. It will need some tile improvements though.

Turn 3, 925 BC:
Nothing special

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 900 BC:
nothing special

IBT:
Daghdapur settler -> settler
Comangethmi rax -> horse

Turn 5, 875 BC
nothing special

IBT: Zulu galley enters our territory.
Delhi settler -> settler
Madras horse -> horse

Turn 6, 850 BC:
Found Bengal at e coast near the whale. Production set to harbor.
Boot Zulu galley. They say they leave.

IBT:
Zulu leave.
Bangalore horse -> horse
Dhyes connected

Turn 7, 825 BC:
reduce lux to 10%, raise science to 50%. Currency due in 4 instead of 5 at +1 gpt.

IBT:
Zulu galley reenters our territory
Three archers are on their way to our borders.

Turn 8, 800 BC:
Boot Zulus. They say they leave.

IBT: Daghdapur settler -> worker
Zulu galley still in indian waters.

Turn 9, 775 BC:
Kill mongol archer with archer near Ta-tu. Our archer is now veteran.
Kill two mongol archers near Comangethmi with horses. No promotions.
Boot Zulus. They say they leave.

IBT: Delhi settler -> worker

Turn 10, 750 BC:
Three settlers move in position (red dots), a fourth is on its way (blue arrow + dot).

The settler to be built in Daghdabad should be going for the ivory and is the last settler we need right now. Both Delhi and Daghdabad should build a few workers and then switch to units.

We are culture leaders but desperately lack military. A second front would mean a loss of several cities right now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/daghda1_750BC.jpg

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_750_BC.SAV)

Good job Lul! How about settling hill NE Ta-Tu and cult bomb it like we did the dyes? We do lead in cult and net+11 so we could afford it.

Actually, there is a settler at that location, beneath the military units.

This means I'm up, am I? Got it.
Nice going. I'm back on some questions. Can we:
- negociate peace (when they come asking)
- get cities for peace
I'll go for some Galleys/Curraghs, for exploration. Suicidal is OK, right?

Negotiating is Go but only if THEY come. We don't ask for peace but are willing to listen to their proposals. We have to accept any deals that end the war but can haggle as much as we like with that restraint in mind. That's why doing massive impact in few turns is so critical to us. A slow moving, albeit massive, force will be halted by any peace request from enemy.
Cities are absolutely OK, we are open arms to people who wants to join our shining culture.

We have to accept any deals that end the war but can haggle as much as we like with that restraint in mind.

I'm quite sure that means we are allowed to get something out of the peace treaty. IIRC we never pay for peace.

This is a tricky one but I'll try to give my view on it as clear my english allows me, then we can discuss.
When attacked we fight for as long as we want. If we smash AI and they come for peace we have to end the war through negotiations. We cannot leave the table without signing peace treaty, but we can take as much as possible with us in terms of gold/tech/cities. This rule works against us. If AI smashes us we cannot ask for peace but have to wait until they come and offer peace. Then we have to take it as not to prolong the war. In pure defiant variant I think Lullaby's note is the proper one i.e. we must turn offer down that doesn't suit us.
When planning this I felt that was not an "Indian" way of doing things as we are very much a peaceful civ and will go for peace whenever offered. I am willing to discuss this because it also goes a bit against the "payback" feel of not kneeling for aggressive AI. Beeing a peaceful civ on a conquest/dom mission a bit contradictory so the problem is not strange.
Team can give opinions on this so we can make the most fun out of it. I will specify rules on post #1 accordingly. They're too vague now.
My vote is on the more defiant rule saying "we never pay for peace". It means we're humble to those who beg for mercy and stubborn to those who think they can screw us. I like that :)

I dont think that we'll have to pay for peace ever. So no problem with this IMO. My vote is "No, we wont pay, we'd rather die".

Even if we weren't making +11 gpt, it would be totally worth it to gold rush a temple for 2 wines.

edit: omg ... this post is like 2 days old :rolleyes:

Gandhi's philospohy was one of non-violence, not of peace by ducking. Hewould have died before giving in to demands that are simply unjust. He was given opportunities to give in to compromises when negotiating with the english. As far as I know, he never did. Nor should we. Peace has to be negotiated on our terms or never.

Now I'm getting confused :confused: I thought that if they come to see us with a peace proposal, we must accept a PT deal. We could negotiate to get the best deal but we must end up at peace with that civ that turn. This is clearly wrong so let me try to see if I have this right...

1. We cannot initiate peace deals.
2. If a civ proposes a peace treaty that does not require us to lose money/techs/cities then we must end up at peace by the time we exit the negotiation screen.
3. If a civ offers a PT that means we lose out, we don't accept the PT and continue fighting until we get a fair deal.

Is (3) correct? If so, what about if they propose a deal that costs us cash/techs but we're on the ropes and we want to take it? Can we accept? (Hopefully this won't happen but just in case...)

On (2), I assume that we can hand over cash for a good deal on a tech.

Please help me out here!!!

Finally, just to muddy the waters a little, can we renegotiate peace treaties with weak AIs to get cash/resources/techs as long as we stay at peace? I wouldn't have thought that extortion was in the game rules but I'm not so sure now. After all, it's not that we have declared war, is it? :D

If AI smashes us we cannot ask for peace (...)And we will not have to because we will not get smashed, not for as long as an Hindu church can be found for a shelter, not for as long as the Gods (monotheism isn't in yet) watch over his cultured followers before the barbaric tribes surrounding us...

1. We cannot initiate peace deals. Well, basically No. We could initiate peace while walking all over AI but I just haven't thought of that possibility while aming at dom/conq and not allowed to declare. As Lul said, "every war brings us closer to Victory". It's more of the function of initiating peace I'm after which brings in a bit of flexibility. If function is to "duck" and save our skin (beeing whupped), then it's a No. If function is having mercy (or seeing benefit ;) ) on opponent than it's a Go. The attitude is well stated by Lul's previous post. If it's an even fight I's say No to initiating. If this seems too vague we could set criterion deciding what is to whip and what is it to be whupped e.g. "2 cities won=we whip, 2 cities lost=we're whupped, but I would rather not.
I suggest a we have a brief disc. when in doubt, otherwise just log a valid reason for initiating when playing.

2. If a civ proposes a peace treaty that does not require us to lose money/techs/cities then we must end up at peace by the time we exit the negotiation screen. Yes!

3. If a civ offers a PT that means we lose out, we don't accept the PT and continue fighting until we get a fair deal. Yes!

Finally, just to muddy the waters a little, can we renegotiate peace treaties with weak AIs to get cash/resources/techs as long as we stay at peace? I wouldn't have thought that extortion was in the game rules but I'm not so sure now. After all, it's not that we have declared war, is it? Yes and No! Remember who our opponents are and how they have treated us in the past. We will squeeze as much as possible out of them by any means, but we will not do as they usually do and that is declare war upon them. They have to do that by themselves.

And we will not have to because we will not get smashed, not for as long as an Hindu church can be found for a shelter, not for as long as the Gods (monotheism isn't in yet) watch over his cultured followers before the barbaric tribes surrounding us... :goodjob:

The log. I signed peace as I was forced.
D1 Ready to take off, please fasten your seatbelts
(1) 750 BC Zulus are Polite, backwards and broke, Germans have 25g and Poly against our Maths and Republic. The war with Mongols is going on. We have our settlers nicely placed to build, but we lack military.
(IBT) Germans fail to dismantle a Barb Camp, our curragh defends against barb galley and Currency is in. Construction is next in 7 at max and -37g.
(2) Madras horse - horse, he'll garrison D-puhr preparing to riot.
I haven't downloaded the DotMap! Still, two fisher villages in FarAway North is not good, and they are extremely overlapped (ICS). Sorry team, but I'll change a little bit the placement. The N spot will go one tile E and the other settler will go for the lake spot. Meanwhile, the settler heading for the lake will claim the Ivory and D-Puhr will build the temple it needs.
Bubba the Fierce gets us 25g :D I still can't get Poly.
MM Bangalore to get earlier the Horse. I move the peacekeepers to menace Ta-Tu. What will Temujin say? Madras can build 3 turns spears with 2 food loss and no shields wasted. We need them.
(IBT) We've lost the curragh.
(3) Delhi worker - worker, Chittagong founded set on harbour.
(4)D-puhr temple - worker, Comangethmi Horse - spear I get an elite horse while attacking Mongol archer.
(IBT) Mongol archer kills our horse across the river :mad:
(5) Delhi worker - spear, D-puhr worker - horse, this city is 10 spt and can build up our defense and lower the army costs. Madras spear - spear ( cycle), Germans are building ToA. A horse revenges his brother, killing the Mongol archer. Nothing to trade .
(IBT) The revenger defeats another archer and promotes
(6) Bangalore horse - spear. One more Mongolian archer is killed for his deeds. Punjab founded near the lake, set on temple. I'm trying to improve the FP city.
(7) D-puhr spear - spear. Another Mongol archer killed, this makes the score 4:1. Germans got maths and can trade poly for currency now, but this is way underpriced.
(IBT) A horse is lost in Mongolia.
(8) Khanabad builds it's harbour ,will go for a galley. I'll try to concentrate some horses in the SW, there is a size 3 city to be taken.
(9) D-puhr spear - horse, Dacca built on the Ivory.
Madras can be is MM-ed for 10 spt, will build a horse and then set it (we're 1 shield short for the cycle). Construction due next turn.
(IBT) Mongols come by asking for peace. They are ready to sacrifice one city, 2 are "almost". They offer Tabriz or Ulaanbaatar, I see none of them. Flip a coin and choose the easier to pronounce, Tabriz. It's on the other side of the continent, in the West.
Construction is in. Lit and Poly are in 4.
Damn, I let Delhi riot (because of the peace). Will roll forward to arrange this. D-puhr and Madras were ready too, before I roll. Lux to 20%
I have moved the troops. I wouldn't build rax in Kohlapur, aqueduct or harbour would be better, the city is corrupted. I've changed it, feel free to veto this.
Germans give 50 g + Poly (the way to the medieval) for any of our techs, I would sell them currency. Still, it's too cheap. We may want to research it, in 5.

Excellent work Khan, now we wait for Tone to take over.

Beorn
Lullaby
Khan-Just played
Tone-Up
Daghda-On Deck

Territory looks good and some nice turns, Khan :goodjob: but I wonder if we are heading for problems now that we are in a period of peace? :sad:

We currently have army support costs of 22gpt and with another 6 units to be built in the next three turns the unit support costs wil rise to 34gpt. This is more than 20% of our income. That would be OK if we had enough cash but we have just 2gp in our treasury and are running a -1gpt rate (soon to be -13gpt) at the current settings of research at 50% and lux at 20%. These settings are not sustainable!!! I know that we have a settler making their way to build a new town (NW of Dacca?) but this is not enough for us to avoid a cashflow problem.

Possible solution:

1. Cash: reduce lux to 10% The higher rate is only needed to keep three people happy but is costing us around 10gpt. Reduce lux to 10% and switch the unhappy cits to taxmen and we get +15gpt and still get Poly in 5. This does hit production in these towns though. Alternatively we accept the deal with Germany for Currency and run a negative budget with their 50g. When we get the ivory connected-10 turns-it will be better though. We could probably extort the cash from Germany as our military is strong compared to them but is it playing by the rules? I'm not sure I understood D's answer to my last question but if I can renegotiate peace this will get us the 50g that I need to tide us over!

2. Improvements/builds: whatever we choose from the above I still think that we cannot afford the military builds yet so here is what I suggest. Madras and Khanalabad need temples to keep the pop happy so switch to Temples from Horses/Galleys. Then go back to military or even markets first. Delhi and D-puhr could build markets first to help our cashflow and give us better long-term financial stability. IMO Comangethmi and Bangalore can continue to pump out military units with the odd worker to keep the pop managable for now but can I get some more horses rather than spears from these towns please. (I hate spears!!!) Once the other towns are back on military they can go for markets or temples if you think it will help expansion.

On a different note Bengal and Punjab need roads to get the income rising so that these core towns are contributing more to our budget.

In short we have a handicap of not being able to declare war and so we need to make sure that we can continue to keep the cash rolling in to pay for our armies and maintain research.

I would appreciate views on the above before I play. Got it but will play tomorrow!

Cheers

Tone

Just a not to Khan: Overlap is good in those cities up north because they will not reach very high population anyways, and when/if they do they'll be mostly coastal cities with low shields amounts, overlap or not - that's my general view of coastal tundra towns.

My view is that since we are in a period of peace, production is not as crucial, and we can spare a few shields to taxmen, and a few of the output production to more workers while we consolidate before the next war. Temples and cathedrals will be needed shortly ... and maybe Sistine if we make many?

What we want not to slow down is the tech pace, as it will be at our great advantage to reach jumbos fast and make a lot of them then. We also pretty much need to culture bomb Ta-Tu (should be a piece of cake getting wines) for some true economic position into the game with 3 luxes.

Have read but is tired after a 4hr run on The Blind. Will comment tomorrow :wavey:

Just a not to Khan: Overlap is good in those cities up north because they will not reach very high population anyways, and when/if they do they'll be mostly coastal cities with low shields amounts, overlap or not - that's my general view of coastal tundra towns.Agreed-they only need 4 coastal/sea tiles and two wooded tundra to work (or 5 sea with a specialist). It is enough to get a harbour from these towns, why spend money on acqaducts, etc.

My view is that since we are in a period of peace, production is not as crucial, and we can spare a few shields to taxmen, and a few of the output production to more workers while we consolidate before the next war. Temples and cathedrals will be needed shortly ... and maybe Sistine if we make many? If we go straight to workers we will lose shields in some of the towns due to the advanced nature of the current builds. Would you scrap those B?

Totally agree on more workers-we have less than one per city which is not enough and as we cannot have slaves we have to build them. I suggested this from some towns that they keep their population constant by building a worker every 10 turns and I would be happy to extend this as we need roads for commerce and mined hills in high food areas (chop that game!) I just didn't want to waste sheilds in current builds

What we want not to slow down is the tech pace, as it will be at our great advantage to reach jumbos fast and make a lot of them then. We also pretty much need to culture bomb Ta-Tu (should be a piece of cake getting wines) for some true economic position into the game with 3 luxes. Maybe this is a reason to trade with Germany? Culture bombing Ta-Tu requires culture builds so temples are a go in this area then? Our major problem is that our FP build is here and there is no culture from this town. We could build a town in the hills to the north and just build culture in it to steal some of Ta-Tu's 21 home tiles and make a flip more likely but this will give a close overlap of cities in this area. Otherwise we will not be putting pressure on their borders for a *very* long time.

General: maybe we need to wind up the Zulu a bit. Multiple demands may not be allowed but a demand per turn will wind them up enough to attack soon. Are we up for that?

I just hate the OCP corruption, more if it's due to fishing villages. Sorry for going against your instructions.
We're doing well, and I think that the military builds can be changed. I was intending to go for some Mongol 2+ pop cities, but had to sign peace, so we don't need them anymore.
I'm ok for the demands, but D must say if it's ok. I feel this a bit against the variant.
We've superior military than Zulu, I doubt that they'll declare.

We should always have a strong offensive task force. We need to take every opportunity to move closer to conquest.

Another thing would be to trade only if needed. We don't want the others to like us.

Lul, I'm just not used reading this kind of posts from you. Warmonger :D:p

We should always have a strong offensive task force. We need to take every opportunity to move closer to conquest.Agreed. That's why we need more horses!

Actually the horses are good for their upgrade path. I don't think we'll have wars soon.
Build some galleys for a suicidal cruises, this can be the new tourist attraction revolution.

If we go straight to workers we will lose shields in some of the towns due to the advanced nature of the current builds. Would you scrap those B?
Culture bombing Ta-Tu requires culture builds so temples are a go in this area then?I wouldn't scrap shields of course, I was s^peaking of what would be up next.

As for culture bombing Ta-Tu, it only requires a higher culture than the town, and an ICS overlap, so that we gain access to previoulsy mongolian tiles. A flip is good but irrelevant here as we want wines and we can have them without a full flip.

For the Zulu, I trake it they are pretty pitiful, but do we really need their territory ? If it is a yes, then by all means do so.

As for culture bombing Ta-Tu, it only requires a higher culture than the town, and an ICS overlap, so that we gain access to previoulsy mongolian tiles. A flip is good but irrelevant here as we want wines and we can have them without a full flip.Ok. I'll factor in a settler build instead of a suggested temple.


For the Zulu, I trake it they are pretty pitiful, but do we really need their territory ? If it is a yes, then by all means do so.We are going for domination or conquest so we do need to take them on to secure our own continent (for domination) or wipe them out (for conquest)

We've superior military than Zulu, I doubt that they'll declare.
.
.
.
I don't think we'll have wars soon.I like a challenge :) . BTW I was not proposing the infinite tribute demands that can send any AI to 'furious' in one turn but a single demand per turn which according to post 1 is OK. I shall wait for further clarification though and so I'll delay my turn set until D replies to this.

Annoying neighbours to make them declare is definetly allowed/a must This is all the rules says about demanding. When stating that I was unaware of the effects of infinite demanding which, if I get it about right, is that you can get AI to declare whenever (almost) you want. If that is correct I say demands can be made only once per turn/civ. Otherwise it feels a bit exploitish.

OK. BTW, I wouldn't say that infinite* demands secures a DoW but it is normally successful with aggressive civs. I suggest you try it in another game, D. Works wonders for happiness in the short term and I just look upon it as the positive side of having violent neighbours ;)

*I wish I hadn't used the word infinite now. As a mathematician, I should understand the difference between a number roughly in the range 20-30 and infinity :mischief:

Overview: We are now at war with Zulu and Mongols. I need anaswer to my question at the bottom before I can finish my turn set but the story so far is...

turn 0 (570)
Due to current peace and lack of cash, change builds as suggested in my earlier post (except Khanalabad>settler to steal wines), reduce lux to 10% and hire some taxmen where needed.

turn 1 (550)
make tribute demands to Germany (for gold) and Zulu (for a toen)-both are rejected.

IBT
Bangalore:horse>horse.

turn 2 (530)
Make tribute demand to Zulu that they reject-they are now furious-good!

IBT
Madras: temple>horse (lose taxman)

turn 3 (510)
Mongols get in the way of our settler.

IBT
Comangethmi: horse>worker; Khanalabad:settler>galley.

turn 4 (490)
tribute demand to Zulu! Settler heads for wines, other settler is still blocked-are the mongols going to take on Germany?

IBT
Enter the MA-research Fued @60% (-2gpt, 12 turns) and we get a nice new front to our palace. Zulu archer enters our territory-yes!

turn 5 (470)
Tell Zulu to leave but don't get the option to say leave or declare-strange given the fact that they are right next to our FP city and they are furious. Make tribute demand to egg them on! Can finally move settler in the South into position.

IBT
Zulu don't declare but we get another chance to evict them. Comangethmi:worker>horse; Jaipur:temple>worker.

turn 6 (450)
Still cannot issue an ultumatum to Zulu. Build Indus in the South. Delhi needs an entertainer.

IBT
Now have Mongol and Zulu troops inside our borders. Madras:horse>horse.

turn 7 (430)
Bengal needs a taxman until we get a road there. Finally get the option with Zulu of declare or leave and they declare! This is more like it! :) We only get the weak 'please leave' option for Mongols though. Elite horse takes out the invading Zulu archer. Build Ganges (temple) by the wines. Move some horses to attack Bapedi next turn and move spear to protect dyes.

turn 8 (410)
Lose specialists in all towns but Bengal due to war fever (should have done this last turn-sorry!) Misclick in first horse attack on Bapedi-I hope that doesn't prove costly. Second horse wins narrow victory vs impi, next horse loses (giving them a GA if they have not already had it-unlikely) but the last horse takes Bapedi (temple, taxman citizen).

We have to tell the Mongols to leave or declare and they declare. They have an archer by our new town of Indus in the south which is defended only by a warrior and forests impedes movement of horses in getting there. The warrior takes on the archer on the hill and wins. Yes! Rush spear in Tabriz. Send units to Ganges to march on Ta-Tu next turn. Change build in southern towns to spears. Capture two Mongol workers and move them to Ganges but if we can capture Ta-Tu next turn we'll add them there.

Still need the specialist in Bengal.

IBT
Mongol archer heads for undefended town that the warrior left-more heroics?
Tabriz: spear>spear.

turn 9 (390)
Tabriz needs a taxman. Up research to 70%. I was expecting to see Ta-Tu's pop drop from 2 to 1 but it's increased to 3! Elite horse redlines spear but loses, archer does the same. Second horse withdraws having done no damage so no quick victory here. Spear protects horse and we are forced to halt for the moment.

Join workers to Ganges-one become a clown.

Warrior loses second battle vs new archer- can I abandon the city?


Not quite finished but I need an answer to this question. Mongols will autoraze it next turn and then we'll lose some cash.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_390BC.JPG

I used to add captured workers to cities but stopped that a few months ago. Slaves are really useful as they don't need upkeep and every two slaves spare a worker which means at least 10 shields.

@Tone
No abandoning cities.

@Tone
No abandoning cities.
They'll pay for this! Nice going so far, Tone, I had forgotten the max agressivity when I said that noone would declare. Great, too bad we'll lose WH from the Mongols because of the city raze :sad:

I used to add captured workers to cities but stopped that a few months ago. Slaves are really useful as they don't need upkeep and every two slaves spare a worker which means at least 10 shields.I would always keep foreign workers and at the moment we are short on workers and at war with Mongols so to have Mongol citizens is not A Good Thing but the varient rules are:

Must do:
Give immediate boot orders to foreign troops
Assimilate all captured slaves in Indian cities of choiseSee post#1

BTW I wouldn't have given boot orders to the Mongols either once we were at war with Zulu but I had no choice with that either! I think that they were on their way to Germany which was in our interests. Still we will have wines soon so every cloud has a silver lining.

Then we should better add these workers to peripheral cities mainly inhabited by indians.
Adding them to a mongol city will cause heavy happiness problems.

We might want to add another rule (if it isn' already added): no starving of city population is allowed as long as the maximum food is produced. We'd rather raise lux instead of hiring specialists if the latter would mean that we run a food deficit and the food box runs empty.

If starvation can't be circumvented by any means, than it is bad kharma.

turn 9 continued
do a bit of mm to get the market next turn in D-puhr. Want to rush a spear in Ivory town but we can't afford it!

IBT
Zulu send two archers at us. Spear attacked by Ta-Tu but it survives (just). Spear attacked in ivory town and we lose. We lose Indus and worker on ivory threatened.
D-puhr: market>horse; Khanalabad: galley>worker.

turn 10 (370)
Withdraw forces from Ta-Tu area. Kill the two Zulu archers with the horses we have there. mm Bangalore to get horse next turn (as grass will be mined at the end of the turn) but suggest that it goes back to working mined grass next turn.

Threat to ivory is great and I still cannot rush a spear there. As our defending spear was lost and they've thrown in more archers we cannot attack with our horse unless we are prepared to throw the town away. However we are likely to lose it anyway so maybe we should go out fighting. I toyed with the idea of sending the spear from Jaipur to protect the worker but we are very thin on the ground and it will not help defend Dacca now so maybe we should withdraw the worker.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_370BC.JPG
I'm not sure what to do so I'll open it up to the group. In a couple of turns we will be Ok as the new horses will deal with any threat before it can reach us but we are vunerable at the moment. Just don't press enter-finish this turn!

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_370_BC.SAV)

Beorn-On Deck
Lullaby
Khan
Tone-Just played
Daghda-Up

My 2 cents: we should rush the temple in Ganges. Once that is done and it expands in culture, we'll have wines connected throughout the empire.

:wavey: Skip me up to Tues 26th, then I'll be back and report for duties :salute:

I see now the whole aggressive settling Idea, sorry for having messed this.
We must send the Jaipur spear down there IMO. And in chain reaction, protect the other cities.

Got It, but can't play until tomorrow. If that's OK I'll do it, otherwise B takes my turn. I'll check in later.
edit: Oh, B's away so I guess I have to put my masters on the shelf for a while anyway :lol:

edit: Oh, B's away so I guess I have to put my masters on the shelf for a while anyway :lol:Any old excuse will do to put it to one side! ;)

I rushed to finish the Blind SG and then I sat down to deal with this one, but I'm sorry team, we have to take a 2 week break on the Payback. I'm too haunted by RL to really make decent turns and will not play sloppy and ruin it for us. Better to ease down and come back when things look a bit different. Hope you don't mind too much. I'll pop in for brief discussion but can't play. However, in 2 weeks I count on beeing ready again.

Too bad Daghdha :sad:
So Beorn is up (back tuesday).

we have to take a 2 week break on the Payback. of course that reads "I have to take a break" ;) . I will follow the goings for sure and hopefully team uses the 72hrs to the max so I only miss 2 rounds.

I will follow the goings for sure and hopefully team uses the 72hrs to the max so I only miss 2 rounds.Absolutely! We cannot play for too long without The Boss :D

If starvation can't be circumvented by any means, than it is bad kharma. 100% in line with the attitude of the game so I will add to rules!

Got it, will play immediately.

Pre-turn: Rotate the guard:`Bangalore-Karachi-Jalpur-Dacca.

Turn 1
Delhi Market-Worker, Madras and Bangalore Horse-Horse.
Dacca has obviously fallen, so I fall back troops to Jalpur.

Turn 2
Delhi Worker->Horse, Comangethmi Horse->Temple. Send a fully healed stack directly at Zimbabwe (Isandiwana is size 1).

IBT: Shoot !!! Zulu ask for peace, we take all their gold and Isandhlwana. We lose war happiness and many cities riot.

Turn 3
Preparing for impact at Jalpur, sending reinforcements. Temple rushed at Ganges.

Turn 4
Dagh Horse->Settler (for ivory), Bangalore Horse->Horse, moving horses to intercept archers our in the wilds before they do any real damage.
Feudalism-> Monotheism.
General, we've got wines.

Turn 5
Delhi Horse->Worker.

Turn 6
Troops nearing the mongol city of Ulaanbaatar sadly se its size whip-shrinked to 1 and their movements repelled by enemy archers. Those mongols are true barbarians.

Turn 7
Delhi and Daghdapuhr both work on wonders as placeholders for lovely cathedrals.

Turn 8
Zulu are pissed to the "or we declare war" point. This might be good shortly enough, as they have sent zillions of Impi towards the west recently.
Mongols send a pitiful galley of whose a pitifuly atheist archer drops down our coast, and is dealt with.

Turn 9
Move troops around for a newcoming ssault from the mongols: probable targets are Jalpur, Karachi and Bangalore.
Woooooooooo war weariness kicks in.

Turn 10
Fully repel a 4-archer hill assault from the mongol on Jalpur, gain 2 promotions and lose nobody. Good Karma.
All but 2 mongol cities have 1 population due to their brutal ways of treating their very own kin. By simple curiosity, I check what the mongols would give away for peace and WoW! they would not even sign peace straight up.
Settler is ready and the road is made for ivory to be reconnected. I propose we name the city after the dozens of needless deaths Temujin has caused upon his people.
If the mongols do not kill us (which is likely), WW and unit support might well do it, so we need bigger cities and more size 7+ ones. With cathedrals, ivory and wines connected, this will be easier to handle soon.
Forbidden palace will be here in 3 turns folks.

I have shown the 2 most plausible paths we could take to attack one of the 2 mongol cities we could attack and not raze.
The light blue path would take us through the one way that we could take for them to see us only one turn in advance. They would only have one turn to rush something if they do. The other way, south, gives them 2 turns of preparation during which they could rush a building or yet another archer, but it also makes us end turns on forest and hills before attacking. At any rate, prepare a force of at LEAST 6 or 7 horsemen(I'd go with 10 myself) before rushing in. Their troops blow, but their numbers are many.

Here's the pic:
http://www.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/150BCD1.jpg

And the save:

Sorry for the color, but I don't feel like going over this again <- lazy dude on vacation :cool:

Splendid work B. Is going straight to Karakorum and splitting the Mongol "empire" in half an option? I can't see Islandhawana but it looks like it's SW Kara? It would be nice to connect our Zulu gift to the rest of the civilized world.

Islandawahna is SW Zimbabwe, yes :p and it is already all worked up - though it is with dirty mines. One worker is currently undergoing repairs for that tactical mistake the Zulu made and irrigations will be brought to the eastern former Zulu Indian empire:king:

The roster is:
Beorn-Just played
Lullaby-Up
Khan-On deck
Tone
Daghda

Lullaby, can you have it?

Can't play before sunday.
You might want to skip me.

I'm up in 4 SG. Will play tonight or tomorrow night.

Changed my plans (got a bit of a flu and will stay at home tonight). I will play tonight.

got a bit of a flu and will stay at home tonight
Dalwhinnie, Highland Park etc I know what you're up to :lol:

Dalwhinnie, Highland Park etc I know what you're up to :lol:
Can an unlighted stupid ask for a traduction? :D

Sorry Khan, don't know what traduction means, but if it means explanation then Lul is a self medicating scottish malt afficinado, just like me, he, he.

Turn 0, 150 BC:
I lower research by 10% to get positive income. Lose one turn on monotheism.

IBT:
Mongols moving in

Turn 1, 130 BC:
Found Pune at the ivory.
With ivory connected lux can be lowered to 10% with only one specialist needed.
Research back to 50% and monotheism in 4.
I switch Sun Tzu to Zeus and ToA to Sun Tzu.
MM the wonder cities to optimize shield output.

IBT:
Bengal harbor -> market

Turn 2, 110 BC:
Only worker action

IBT:
Karachi FP -> market

Turn 3, 90 BC:
I lower science and still get mono in 2.

IBT:
nothing special.

Turn 4, 70 BC:
Scouting galley spots dark red borders. I bet it will get lost at sea.

IBT:
Mono in. Research chiv in 8.
Galley sunk :(

Turn 5, 50 BC:
nothing special

IBT:
Delhi riots. I slept a bit.

Turn 6, 30 BC:
Killed 3 archers with elite horses. No leader.

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 7, 10 BC:
German settler coming from the south.

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 8, 10 AD:
nothing special

IBT:
Madras market -> settler

Turn 9, 30 AD:
killing mongol spear, capturing settler.
Lux back to 20%

IBT:
mongols land an archer near Delhi.
Bapedi temple -> market
Comangethmi aqua -> market

Turn 10, 50 AD:
Kill archer near Delhi.

All in all not much happened. We don't have enough military to go to offense. Some archers are constantly annoying us and might capture or destroy one of our cities with a lucky blow. But due to the happiness situation the markets have higher priority. Soon chiv is in which means that we can upgrade our horses to jumbos and along with the AC from Zeus get a strong offensive force.

One city place left where our old city has been razed.

We need some galleys to get to the other continent.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_50_AD.SAV)

Tomorrow night as I said. Got it.
EDIT: Sorry, I meant translation. Traduction is in French...

D1 50AD
(0)
The situation is under control, we’re tech leaders and building markets. Our military is good, I think I’ll go for at least 1 city. Honestly I hope the Mongols won’t pop with peace proposal soon. Targets – Karakorum and Kazan, and a leader.
Buy the temple in our city behind the Mongols. It needs some protection. Minor MM.
(IBT) Khanalabad Market – Galley
Tabriz temple – spear
(1)
Send an irritating horse in Mongol lands to send away their stupid archers.
Regroup a striking force.
(IBT) Our offensive horse retreated from an archer. Chivalry in, set on Theology (Germans are 1 tech away from the MA, I want to see what will they get.
(2)
Madras settler – aqueduct. Isandhl temple – aqueduct.
We already have first level WW.:sad:
I send another 2 horses to offend the Mongols
(IBT) Our offensive force attracts Mongol archers. Good, the diversion works.
(3)
5 horses head for Karakorum. Will strike next turn. Kill 2 archers.
(IBT) Mongols retreat another one of our Horses. And expose an archer.
SoZ is in. Delhi building pikes in 2 turns.
Khanalabad galley – another one. Palace expansion.
(4)
The last spear resists in Karakorum :mad: I’ll be back (with elephants). Research to 0 for upgrades. I was stupid to charge with horses.
(IBT) Bangalore market – temple
(5)
Horse – WE upgrade costs 120g.
Reset science as we can upgrade all our regular horses except the one guarding Isandhlwana.
I’m building some temples.
(IBT) Mongols on voyage
(6)
Our heroic suicide galley sees borders, must survive another turn in the ocean
Swap Delhi on the templar.
(IBT) Galley sinks! Definitely suicide is hard in this game.
(7)
Kill a mongol.
(IBT) Damn, those Mongols come for peace :sad: I was ready to strike. I take Ulaanbaatar for peace. AC built. Kohlapur market – harbour.
(8)
Bombay founded. Lux goes down to 10%.
(IBT) Nothing
(9)
Ask Mongol archers out of our lands.
Set some builds as prebuilds, feel free to decide what to do with them.
(IBT) Another galley lost :sad:
(10)
Ask Mongols out and here we go! Another war :D
Kill the archer that gifted us this war.
While striking Ta-Tu:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GA.JPG
The city is ours but I lost an elite Horse.
Move some units towards the frontlines.
The Mongols must not have more than 2 cities in the end of the next player’s turn. Wait for their next capital to expand and get it. The same for the last city.
Feel free to change all builds. We got rid of the WW :D
Note on worker management. I don’t obey on the easy principle of “Mine green and irrigate yellow”, so some grass are irrigated and plains being mined. It gives more chance for MMing.
Watch out for Germany. They are growing.
The SAVE. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_260_AD.SAV)

Call me suspicious but are you trying to stop me from finishing the current COTM? :D I've just finished my turn set on Bul_1 and now you've set me up for this :) I'm afraid that I will not look at this until tomorrow evening but it looks like you've set me up nicely Khan, so thank you! As our leader has requested, I will take my full time allowance as I don't want D to miss too many rounds (and I must not miss the submission date for COTM!)

Beorn
Lullaby
Khan- Just played
Tone-Up
Daghda-On deck ??

Wasn't even on purpose Tone :D I'm good in messing up things...

Ask Mongols out and here we go! Another war :D I like this more for every post. Team does an excellent job methinks and I am definetly on deck. I've been a good boy and studied hard the last days/night so I'm about to catch up.
Whole situations seems on track, looking forward to get back in!

I'm good in messing up things...Well you need to try harder if you were trying to mess this up! :)

Looks good, although with so many long term builds (wonders/markets/aqueducts/etc) we cannot build any more offensive troops for a while so don't expect too much from me.

I'm a little worried that we are too light to defend our gains in old Zulu lands and so I might sacrifice either the harbour build in Kolhapur for a rax and then units until the wonders are built and we can then use our most productive towns again. We need to be able to evict zulus without losing towns so easily as an impi can just walk straight into Bapedi at the moment. I will be changing the aqueduct build in Isanhlwana unless someone can justify it. There is no way that it will grow beyond pop 4 at the moment (unless I change the orders for that mining worker and get irrigating). Maybe a court would be good here?

@D: Do you want me to still use my full 48 hours from this 'got it' or shall I play Saturday pm/Sunday am?

@Tone
I'm ready to go sunday evening.
Sound plan, We've lost enough cities. Let's roll 'em over slow but steady.

:salute: Good to see you back general D! :salute:
Tone, we have 5-6 WE and the mongols defend with spears. I see no point in more military. I think that the mongol war will be quite boring. Try to take their northern city first to stop them from whipping it, then the capital and it'll be all about waiting for expansions in the other two cities.
The germans are the only one that can treaten us, and their military is smaller than ours.
I'm sick of losing galleys, just look the two approaches to the other continent failed one turn before contact, that's why I went for TGLighthouse. Feel free to change those builds, but this is monarch and I'm not used to the high number of unbuilt wonders.

I've no problem with the wonders and I fully intend to keep the builds. The GLHouse is a fine idea-I just hope that we are not too late. If we can make contact with the other continent and they give an ultimatum, we get war fever with no risk attached. :goodjob:

It is only the undefended ex-Zulu town I am concerned with. If a zulu warrior strays into our territory, we give a leave or dec war message and they dec war, they can stroll into Bapedi unopposed!

Repeat: No major changes intended and none at all in the core. Just don't expect too much-I'm going for no risks so I want a spare jumbo around just in case the RNG craps on me. BTW have you never lost knights against spears? It's really annoying and we can't afford this to happen without at least making the offending spear pay. ;)

0-260AD(!)
Change build in Kolhapur to rax and decide to stop mining workers in two cases as we need to water plains if we are going to use the hills. Move jumbo out of Delhi towards the front and mm Ganges.

IBT
Theo>Education

1-270AD
A little more mm and troops either heal or move to regroup.

IBT
Mongol galley is looking to raid.
Comangethmi: market>jumbo. Kolhapur:rax>pike.

2-280AD
jumbos in position to take their new capital, AC covers galley and one jumbo will be in position to cover the counter on Ta-Tu soon.

IBT
Delhi produces an AC, Bangalore: pike>pike. Ganges: market>rax. Pune: temple>rax
Germans have built MoM and are now going for the GW

3-290AD
Archer gets in the way of the attack on Karak (I'm not attacking over the river) so I take it out. Next jumbo does no damage to the reg spear but at least it reteats to figt another day. Final one loses two hp to a reg spear.

IBT
Madras: acueduct>harbour. Karachi: jumbo. Tabriz: spear>worker.

4-300AD
Lose jumbo to spear in assault on Karak :mad: but take the town with two of the three jumbos left and both now have just 1hp. AC and elite horse attack archers to help cover any counter and we get a GL. :banana: I feel a jumbo army is about to appear.

IBT
Kolhapur: pike>pike. Bengal: market>aqueduct.
Germany has Lit. We have Edu next turn.

5-310AD
Jumbo covering Ta-Tu is now down to 2 hp but it looks like the raiding spears have run out. Consolidation but the pike from Kolhapur can free up the jumbo in the far South-East.

IBT
Edu>Astronomy
Bangalore: pike>jumbo. Punjab: rax.

6-320AD
I form an army with two partially healed jumbos and take out an offending Mongol archer. Change build in Ganges to Herioc Epic.

IBT
Comangethmi: jumbo>jumbo.

7-330AD
Very quiet. Troops moving or healing.

IBT
The first of Kahn's wonders comes in... http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_KT.JPG K-Templar in Delhi. Delhi: cath. Kolhapur: pike>harbour. Hyderbad: temple.

8-340AD
Army converges on Kazan with two supporting jumbos. The Mongols have appeared on Mapstat as willing to talk peace so they will soon come to us with an offer. Another jumbo and horse are moving to check out the southernmost town which is hidden-might be pop 1 like the others though. Change build in Karak to court.

IBT
Madras: harbour>galley. Tabriz: worker>court. Bombay: temple>court.

9-350AD
We take the current Mongol capital of Kazan (temple). Hov'd is the northern town and is size 1 so all Mongol towns are size 1 no culture. We're stuck!

IBT
After much indecision the Mongol galley finally drops off its cargo of one archer.
Ta-Tu: temple>market. D-puhr builds SunTzu>cath http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_SunTzu.JPG (change Punjab build to jumbo, pune to court). Karachi: jumbo>jumbo. Jaipur: court>granary.

10-360AD
Take out the invading archer behind the lines and one from a full-frontal assault by Ta-Tu (They do like this town!). Kazan will starve or riot-starve?

So...

War has ground to a halt as any assault will auto-raze. We have troops in postion to attack any/all towns that grow but I feel that you will be receiving a peace envoy soon.

Feel free to change any of the builds. In particular there is room for a town between Comangethmi and Karak if you want to knock out a settler.

Research. I get the feeling that Khan's roading of tundra was in preparation of planting forests for engineering but I've used the additional cash from our GA to strike deep into the research path. We have Astronomy in one turn. If we are serious about getting to the other continent we should go for Navigation IMO and then switch the GLHouse build to Magellan's for the extra mp as the GLHouse will become obsolete soon. Perhaps we could buy Lit from the Germans?

Oh yes and if we get some irrigation around the iron that town can grow and use the iron-two workers available for this next turn.

Have fun, D! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_360_AD.SAV)

Beorn-On deck
Lullaby
Khan
Tone-Just played
Daghda-Up

Very fine stuff.

Looks like the high aggression actually makes the game a lot easier as soon as you get through the beginning without being overrun before you can set up your defenses.

Magellan has to be of highest priority.

Scoring a conquest win will be hard though because noone will declare on us if we are too strong and they are too weak.

Scoring a conquest win will be hard though because noone will declare on us if we are too strong and they are too weak. You're right; it is difficult but if we wind them up enough and they scout in our territory we'll have what we want. Anyway, who wants it too easy? ;)

I've been thinking about the auto-raze problem. If we gift them Republic in our next set of peace turns, they will no longer be able to pop rush, their towns will grow and in the next war we can wipe them out! (Unless we get all of their towns bar the capital in the PT in which case there is no point.) Seem reasonable? If we do this, trade with Germany first for Monarchy and Literature.

Lullaby, defiant is sweet on Monarch and even Emperor, but at Tim Bentley's games (see my sig) it shows as really tough. It's continental DG.
I don't think that we need to care about the mongols. I they redeclare, the capital city needs 10 turns to expand and be captured :evil: And they will have to give us their last to capital city for peace so do you see an OCC?

I don't think that we need to care about the mongols. I they redeclare, the capital city needs 10 turns to expand and be captured :evil: And they will have to give us their last to capital city for peace so do you see an OCC?I find sitting around waiting for the next spear/archer to be pop rushed quite tedious. We could be focusing on the Germans (whom you have identified as a threat) instead of keeping back units for the next pathetic Mongolian to raise his ugly head. The Mongols and the Zulu are finished but I don't want them around any longer than we can tolerate so I am looking for a way of ending it quickly. Even waiting ten turns for a capital's borders to expand can mean a player waiting around for his entire turn set. Of course I don't see a OCC-do you forsee that we might lose our tech lead if we do what I have suggested?

The problem is that we must accept all peace offer and can't declare nore raze. That's why I guess we'll have Mongol peace when THEY are OCC (not us of course).
Germans have some place to expand but I think that the war with them will come really soon. But we're in really good shape; I don't fear them.

I guess we must agree to disagree. If the Mongols were out of despotism, they would not be able to pop rush and so their cities would grow. That means that we could attack and take them when at war.

I don't fear the Germans but I want to get on with taunting them and then taking their prime real estate. This is more problematical when we still have the other two hanging around IMO.

What we do agree on is that we are in fine shape! :D

Omg, a Jumbo army ... that's 18 tons of jumbo HP.

With Sun Tzu, we're in awesome shape. We indeed need to stop worrying about the mongols, as they now are pretty much down and the worst they can do is be angry and grunt at us. Soon they'll be 5-6 techs behind and they'll never come back. We could basically leave 3 jumbos near them and move our army down to germany to instill fear.

Gifting republic sounds good too.

That reminds me! I only loaded two into the army so that we can transport it by caravel. (I don't think that I needed to put a third one in but my memory fails me at the moment!)

The republic has high trade value. I'm against gifting it to the Mongols, unless we know the world and they are the last ones to lack it. A single city or two isn't worth this.

IBT
Astro learned, we go for Navi
Delhi cath->pike
Hybad temple->pike, I want at least 1 def in each town.
(1)
Sell Mono to Busy for: Gems, 4gpt, 80g + Litt
will delay war but...we might clean up northern
part of continent first.
mm to get wltkd (see if it works)
Otherwise workers work.
IBT
Bangalore jumbo->lib
Comang jumbo->settler
Lots of fireworks
(2)
Move troops S
IBT
Delhi pike->lib
D-pur cath->settler
Madras caravel->caravel
Shaka starts ToA
(3)
Rush tempel in Ulaan for 56g
Caravel in Madras can take settler party
when navi is ready.
IBT
D-pur settler->Copernicus
Kolhapur harbour->caravel
H-bad pike->settler
Ulaan temple->court
(4)
Zzzz
IBT
Comangetmi settler->lib
Mongol archer attacks worker guarded by spear, dies.
Karachi b t River Jumbo->lib
(5)
Army kills offending archer
IBT
Delhi lib->Univ
Madras caravel->lib
Baipedi market->duct
Jaipur granny->Jumbo
Punjab Jumbo->lib
(6)
res. to 40%, navi in 1, net +210
IBT
Navigation learned go for Banking
H-bad settler->lib
(7)
AC kills mongol archer
Change Khanalabad from Lighthouse to Magellans
caravels start scoutin E
res to 70%, banking in 5
IBT
Bang lib->jumbo
Kolhapur caravel->lib
(8)
Jumbo killed by archer outside Ulundi
AC kills archer
IBT
Heroic Epic finished
Caravel sinks barb galley
Gagnes epic->pike
German archer intrudes S Pune
(9)
"Must be withdrawn" is Busy told. I smell
a broken gpt-deal here...
Move troops to prerare for that
Found Bad-Bad on N coast by the fish
Meets Japan, they are:
down lit,currency,rep
up monarchy
91 g's
Silks 0 excess
Same military MAd says.
res down to 60%
lux to 0%, net +153
IBT
Bengal duct->pike
Isand duct-MI
(10)
Right as rain Germany declares, woo-hoo-wee.
AC kills germ horse
Found Lullapur
AC kills germ archer

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/germanwar.JPG

Dealbreaker Busy doesn't deny his inner drive for messing
things up, only this time he'll pay a big one for it. I've focused on libs and
such but now a little military is warranted and we've got a good stash for rushing if we want to.
Caravel E should find a nice spot to put settler on so we get a HQ on Our Next Continent.
I went for banking because I like Smith's and we're sooo ahead in tech. We can wait with eco while doing lower tier again.
Well team, the party continues :dance: and there's a lot of goodies in northern Germany, iron, gems, horses and of course BANANAS, go get 'em :D

Well, we have German war. :D
Still, the bad news are that the WW will hit hard. I foresee at least 20 turns before Otto comes to ask for peace, lets choose our first cities to capture among those that give ressources (Bananas included, seems that D really insists on this bonus:) )
Are we still in war with the Mongols? If yes, the next turn Ulundi will expand (if I count the 10 turns right and we can get the Iron.
Who is the Dark Red civ? Byzance? Have we met them?

@Khan
I thought you were reading my log intensely and pondering every word :lol:. The dark red is Japs and they're puny. We're still at "war" with Temu.

Ooops, sorry, I found it :blush: . I'm at work now and not supposed to read this kind of stuff, you see, so I've missed this.

Nice turns, D. The bad new is that Mongols still haven't come for peace. Given that we are doing them no damage, (you're timekeeping is right, Khan, we can take the iron next turn) I wonder if we have another 41 turns until we take their last city? :sad:

Agree with keeping to top tier tech research. They might do a bit of research on the path to gunpowder for us.

Disagree with 'a defender in every city'. It costs too much money and does not defend the homeland well. I can put up with pikes on the front line but they cannot counter a landing and could lose out with a bad RNG. Small groups of jumbos (2/3 depending upon the AI units available) in key areas can cover the entire back line and kill any unit landed before it attacks. Now when we meet the Vikings and they get to Navigation it's a different matter... ;)

@Khan: I'm not sure about WW hitting us. If we don't lose too many troops and we don't station our forces inside their borders we should be OK. They declared on us so we get the intial war fever as well and if we can get the dyes and gems we should be in seventh heaven! If happiness is a problem we could always encourage Japan to declare war on us for a top-up on the war fever! No worries :)

The defender in every city-thing is an old habit I guess but I have no problem with dropping it. When learning to play, loosing a few undefended cities makes you paranoid, not neccesary smart. Groups of mobile attackers sounds much better.
I think Tone is right about WW. In BLtB1 we were at war constantly but didn't really experience any WW for reasons mentioned.
Advancing in centerfield through the rough terrain and aiming for dyes/gems and those 6pop cities before they go pop7 might be a plan?

can we lurkers have pikkies more frequently please?

Got it, will probably only play tomorrow night though.

I very strongly agree with Tone on leaving only a few jumbo squads back and placing no real defensive troop contingent, especially in republic/democracy. We can cover the shores with boats as well, to make sure we have no invaders; galleons and privateers will deny anyone access to our dearest mother land.

60/0 budget at +130 is awesome, too.

Of course, I'll focus on giving everyone on the continent a fresh supply of bananas. Everyone should be allowed the reight to eat banaas. The germans have kept it for themselves for far too long.

Of course, I'll focus on giving everyone on the continent a fresh supply of bananas. Everyone should be allowed the reight to eat banaas. The germans have kept it for themselves for far too long.It's always good to focus on your main objective when at war :lol:

Pre-Turns: Changed every unit build that was not a WE to WE or whatever was more useful for the given spot.
Moved a few troops to the german front, consolidating for an assault on Heldelburg.
Plan is Heldelburg, Konigsberg, Leipzig - for the gems.
Put up an embassy with the zulu, it is mighty cheap (25 gold only, we can spare that).
I will always send troops in that order, when they are at hand: Crusaders, AC, WE, elite horse.

T1:
Sign RoP with the Zulu and get 1g+WM
Take out the german archer in our jungle with the elite horse, no leader produced.
Press on for banking, lose a little 44 gold.

T2:
SGL !!!
Meet the Chinese, they are ahead monarchy, behind by *cough* literature and currency.
1 Crusader falls, 2 elite WE from the taking of Heidelburg, hereby renamed Jumburg.
Sell all our barracks that were not gifted off Sun-Tzu's for a swift 100 gold, joined 2 mongol slaves to Karakorum and Ganges
Economics in 5 at current (loss) rate.

IT Germany completes ToA. Ulundi's cultural border expands ... time to show them that culture is better when seen from an hindu point of view.

T3:
Ganges Library -> WE
Take out one mongol spearman, full force coming ready next turn.

T4:
Madras Lib->WE
Ulundi is shown the light, but resists. The jumbo army in the house will teach them the way.

T5:
Bangalore WE->WE, Khanalabad Magellan's voyage (:D)->Cathedral, Jalpur WE->WE

T6:
B the WE takes over Konigsberg. The more rivers I see, the more desperate I become for engineering - put that on my Christmas gift list [party]

T7:
Delhi University->WE.
Sign WM exchange, Spices+4gpt+130g to china for currency and ivory.
Currency, Horses, wines to Japan for silks, WM, 9g+10gpt.
Troop advances to Nuremberg and Leipzig. Still only one casualty, 2 proms.
Move boats to meet Scandinavia and Aztecs, and towards a potentially nice foothold on the other continent.

T8:
Got Economics, working on engineering to bolster up our treasury again.
Punjab Lib->WE, Ganges WE->Lib,
People plant stuff around our palace, how nice of them.
Get the WM of Ragnar for TM and 1g ... what a joke. Sounds promising: Aztecs are just about dead, so we could invade the continent from there and we wouldn't get much resistance, or go from the top down and find no resistance in the end. Point is, they blow.

IT: Bismark comes and begs for peace. We retrieve Bonn, 2 slaves, his map and some gold. :wallbash: Dammit, Hamburg and Munich were falling this turn. Oh well.

T9:
Retreat troops. A handful of WE should head towards Almarikh, since it is (palace) producing culture. Hovd next will rid us of the mongols.
I robbed the other continent of their gold with our luxes.

I didn't want it up to myself only, but I believe we could use our SGL for Smith's or Leo's. Leo's is what I would have in mind, given we will want to invade another continent with ships and cavalries; the said cavalries will be a hard buy if we don't have Leo's workshop.
I played 9 turns to even stuff out. I put courthouses as builds in captured towns, except Bonn who will need defenders.

http://www.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/D1550.jpg

edit: Sorry for the image load time, I hope it's temporary

So far the only questions that come to mind are:
-Rushing Smith and building Leo, or the opposite?
-Is monarch not too easy for this one?

Roster:

B <- Just played
Lullaby <- Up
Chunky Kong <- On Deck
Tone
Daghda

SGL for Leos. Smith is safely in the bag.

The only problem we might face is to get the last civ declaring. But with only these psychotics around it should be possible.

I agree on the SGL, Leos.
EDIT: Not quite sure, but do we have slaves working our soil? They must be assimilated in the cities.
EDIT2: Hey guys could you please put me in the roster, I thought I still play in this game ;)

Sorry Khan, I took a roster off page 2, so please consider yourself to be named "Chunky Kong" for the past 3 posts :rotfl:

About slaves, there were some working our soils when I took the game, and now they have been assimilated, or are underway to be.

Smith is indeed safe in the bag: the most advanced civilisation now is germany, which just started to renew its troops with fresh *cough* swordsmen. All we have to possibly fear now, for wonders, is if they cascade up on their Great Wall builds and get something like Leo or Sistine - though I take it we agree on rushing Leo once we get there.

And BTW, bananas have been captured but not roaded. We will need more workers in the near future; assimilated slaves in townships to grow them to 7 will help unit support greatly and allow us this luxury.

NP, Beorn, I had found out what you did. I'm on deck.
Could someone explain me why are we in the hurry to road the bannanas? This isn't moded game and they are only a bonus ressource.
I agree we need more workers, but watch out for not building slaves in the cities that have assimilated population.
Have fun Lullaby.

There is an old song here in germany called "Ausgerechnet Bananen, Bananen verlangt sie von mir" (Of all things bananas, bananas she's demanding from me).

In the legendary Billy Wilder movie "Eins, zwei, drei" (one, two, three) that played in the early 60's divided Berlin, an east german club singer used to sing that song. Meant as a sidenote on the lack of "luxury" fruit in eastern germany. :lol:

bananas give +1 food and +1 gp, iirc. Nice to have.

I'm sure I'll be able to play tonight.

Khan, we are in a hurry to road bananas because we thrive to be a modern, cool looking and plentiful civilisation whose citizens have the right to eat different stuff when they want to: Wheat is good, but 4550 years of wheat eating and no bananas makes Jack a dull boy.

This also reminds me that we have no cattle; we should try and find some.

Last thing I forgot: I was thinking about settling inwards the other continent to culture-bomb (temple rush on 2nd turn) the incense to our side, and then we can send an additionnal settler to relay with the shore once we get our culture exopansion and we possess a shore square.

Khan, we are in a hurry to road bananas because we thrive to be a modern, cool looking and plentiful civilisation whose citizens have the right to eat different stuff when they want to: Wheat is good, but 4550 years of wheat eating and no bananas makes Jack a dull boy.Don't forget the fish and game:) (are you taling this game seriously?)

Turn 0, 550 AD:
I simply press space

IBT: Otto wants us out of german territory. OK.

Turn 1, 560 AD:
...

IBT: Engineering -> Invention, due in 4.
Delhi jumbo -> settler

Turn 2, 570 AD:
...

IBT: Mongols want peace. I take Hovd for that.

Turn 3, 580 AD:
Tell mongol galley to leave. Nothing happens.
Found Karachi in Viking lands, near an incence source.

IBT: Delhi settler -> Smith's
Daghdapur Copernicus -> settler

Turn 4, 590 AD:
Hurry temple in Karachi.

IBT:...

Turn 5, 600 AD:
...

IBT:
Invention -> Gun Powder, due in 4
Daghdapur settler -> Leo's

Turn 6, 610 AD:
Hurry Leo's with a leader
Hurry harbor in Karachi

IBT: Daghdapur Leo's -> lib

Turn 7, 620 AD:
...

IBT:...

Turn 8, 630 AD:
...

IBT:...

Turn 9, 640 AD:
...

IBT: Gunpowder -> Chemistry, due in 4

Turn 10, 650 AD:
Demand Viking worker out. Nothing happens.


One of the former german cities will get salpeter in after border expansion.

RoP with the Zulu wasn't a good idea. We can't demand them out.


Suggestions:
There are 2 settlers and some military at Tabriz. Two caravels are about to be finished.

With these we should found cities at the places marked with red crosses to get the luxies.

Rush the barracks and then a few military units at Karachi just to be safe.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1SilkSteal.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1Furs.jpg

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_650_AD.SAV)


Personally, I put the victory condition in question. This will be a long way for a totally superior power. Maybe we could go for 100k or dom to shorten this.

Tone, this game is in the bag, so as far as I am concerned, we might as well just fight settler wars and convert everyone with mega culture bombs at 0% research past Mil Trad, or maybe Nationalism, and it'd be cool with me... I rarely played a (solo) game beyond that point where I get this far ahead and overpowering. I did sign up, and you'll see my hairy canadian butt to the end of this, but count any inch of seriousness out of the foresaid bottom :lol:

As for RoP with the Zulu, it helped a great deal to bring backup troops from the north through to Leipzig, though I guess we had enough already. I just didn't think we could assume they would have 1 or 2 defenders ONLY in each city ... darn had we known ...

Clever city spots by the furs and Silks, Lulll

Please *not* 100K.

Well played guys, and yes, this seem to be going in one direction. Domination is allowed as VC so let's go for that. Conquest could tiresome. Had no idea this would run so smooth when setting up, but then again I'm probably the least skilled player of us.

SGL for Leo's :thumbsup:

The banana thing comes from a thread named something like "stupidest reasons for going to war" and one of them were "because I wanted those bananas". I found that immensely funny :lol:

I see, D. :D
We've got the banannas we were warring for.
Lets road them now.
Domination is good for me. This will pass through the case "cultural war" with the variant settings.
I'll play tomorrow.

Domination is allowed as VC so let's go for that. Conquest could tiresome. Had no idea this would run so smooth when setting upI had no idea what to expect. If we were placed in the middle of a number of these civs, our start may not have been such a smooth ride. Put the difficulty level up to emperor and place us on a pangea and it would increase the challenge factor a fair bit but I still think that if you played a few games with the settings were are on at the moment, the wrong moves and/or a bit of bad luck in one game could see you fighting all the known AIs with no hope of a PT in sight. This could easily have turned into an AW game by another name.
SGL for Leo's :thumbsup:Agreed!

When we will have our 66/66, wanna try it again on pangea/emp with, say, Sumeria?

@B
Definetly, but then I would like some more input on rules. What works, what doesn't, what could be improved for a funnier game? We think about that and then see what summer brings.
As for now, bananas :D

We think about that and then see what summer brings.
As for now, bananas :DSounds all good.

Now Khan, you know what to do: find our people stuff to eat, and that includes Zulus and Mongols and Germans and Japs.

D1 650 AD
(0)
We have RoP with zulus. This is against the variant.
Monarchy is around. Not interesting.
Shave 5 turns on Smith in Delhi.
(1)
Karakorum Caravel – temple, Leipzig Lib – temple, Tabriz caravel – market. Settlers board with Jumbos.
(2)
Our WM gets us all the other civs money and 11gpt.
Dagdhapuhr lib – bank
(3)
Ask out mongol galley.
Scandinavians don’t retire neither.
(4)
Karachi by the river Uni – bank, Bengal lib – temple.
The same kick outs, no ultimatum.
(5)
Chemistry -> Metallurgy in 4 turns.
WM trades pay the caravel maintenance.
Mongols don’t retire their galley.
(6)
Khanalabad lib – bank
Land settler near Silk.
(7)
Sell Monotheism to China for Monarchy, 46gpt and 70g. Build some embassies. Scandinavia is 7 turns away from The Great Library. The two continents haven’t met. China is in war with Japan. Scandinavia with OCC Aztecs.
(8)
Spice deal expires. I do no renew it.
Dacca built near the silks.
Scandinavia has claimed the furs. I’ll still offend them.
Tabriz will build a settler to claim an island.
(9)
China and Japan sign peace.
Bapedi Aqua – lib
Tabriz settler – aqua
BadBad harbor – temple
(10)
Metallurgy – Physics (change if you want MT)
Zeus is obsolete.
Karakorum temple – market
The settler near the Furs is in place. Another one lands on the Island.
The save. Tooooooooooooooo peacefull.

We have RoP with zulus. This is against the variant.
No it isn't-it's optional! See post 1. It means that we cannot give boot orders to foreign troops though which does lead to a conflict in trying to follow the varient rules!!! Do we need to alter the rules to ban RoP in future, D?

Don't know whether MT would be the best option yet. I tend to agree with your next tech choice. I haven't downloaded the save yet and I'm just about to go to bed so excuse the possibly stupid statements that may follow.

I think we need to continue to build jumbos and ship many of them over to the other continent. When we have reached what we consider to be a decent number then we research MT und upgrade them to cavs-that's what having Leo's is alll about-isn't it?

Once we have a decent number of troops overseas we should start to wind-up the Vikings so that they declare on us. I'd really like to wipe them out before we have to face their UU. I just hate having to defend port cities. (It's just a good job that the AI cannot use beserks as well as a human can-they are fearsome IMO. I've taken out cities defended by infantry with them so their shelf-life in human hands is pretty long. They're my favorite UU at the moment on 'pelago maps :) )

Tooooooooooooooo peacefull. The more I play with you, the more I realise that you are a true warmonger! Just the type of person I need around me when I start slip back into old builder habits. :D

As I said before, I'll look at the save tomorrow but it sounds like we have a nice beachhead.

Well lets say that warhappiness is something I love not only because my people is happier.
Still, check Tim02 (Defiant Diplomats Defeated) to see what happens when you are too much of a warmonger.
Berserks are really a great unit. Too bad I hate playing 'pelago.
Re RoP, you're right.
EDIT: Answer to a question of Beorn. I just love kicking sumerian *****...:D

Looks like Tone is up.

I'm playing at the moment!

0-730AD
Change build in Bapedi from Lib to Harbour.
We have 34 towns and only 17 workers!!!!!
Trades need renewal. We are importing silks and we now have our own source and we are selling a lux to China for 2gpt! I cancel the deal with Japan as they cannot afford gpt. China will not part with their spices for anything but serious cash or techs so we renew the 2gpt deal for ivory but also take their treasury of 60g. I also move the AC from Ta-Tu to Karak so that it can attack the Mongol city if the dec war. Finally I up research by 10% to get Physics in 4 turns.

IBT
Ta-Tu: lib>jumbo. Dacca: harbour>temple.

1-740AD
Build Indus by furs and set build to temple to claim furs. Drop off other settler by the ruins NW of here. (Individual workers to clear forest? OK then!) Build New Delhi on the island (temple)

IBT
Vikings have destroyed the Aztecs

2-750AD
tell a viking worker to get lost. Build Calcutta (harbour). Rush temple for furs.

IBT
D-puhr: Bank>jumbo
Bengal: temple>musket
Lullapur: market>worker
Indus: temple>rax

3-760AD
tell the worker to please go away again. reduce research slider but still get Physics next turn.

IBT
Physics>ToG
Comangethmi: Uni>jumbo
Ganges: Uni>jumbo
Vikings have built the GLib.

4-770AD
tell the mongol and viking galleys to please go away.

IBT
Isand: market>harbour
Pune: lib>worker
Lullapur: worker>aqueduct
Japanese have built the GLHouse.

5-780AD
Rush temple in Dacca. Yet again we tell the Vikings to get lost.

IBT
Mongols and Zulu both send troops into our lands-interesting!
Bangalore: Uni>jumbo
Dacca: temple>rax

6-790AD
The mongol archer must have been disbanded-we tell their galley to please go away. Even though the Impi has gone deep into our lands, we cannot force a declaration from them either! We also repeat the message again to the Vikings.

IBT
The Zulu drive deeper
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_zulu_up_to_no_good!.JPG
Daghdhapuhr: jumbo>jumbo
Madras: Uni>jumbo
Pune: worker>market
Bad-Bad: temple>'duct

7-800AD
Vikings still don't budge and neither do the Chinese but the Zulu are forced to declare. We kill the impi on the mountain, although it takles two troop as it withdraws from the crusader when down to 1hp. Our Ac has less luck and is killed when assaulting Zimbabwe. Another crusader attacks the other aggressive zulu on the border and this retreats as well. Hoblane gives great resistance with four defending impis but we take the town with troops stationed in Nuremburg and the two slaves are assimilated into the newly acquired town. Troops march on the Zulu. No unhappiness in any of the old Zulu towns!

IBT
ToG>Mag

8-810AD
Vikings and mongols still only get a please go away but our Chinese trading partners get a 'leave or declare' I can't work it out! They leave.
Intombe also has four defenders. The army kills three of them after the crusader is defeated by the first impi so that town is defended by a single 1hp impi. Yet again an impi retreats from a crusader.

IBT
Ta-Tu: jumbo>jumbo
Ganges: jumbo>jumbo
Karachi's borders expand to exert a bit of pressure on neighbouring Viking and Chinese towns.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_karachi.JPG

9-820AD
Still the Mongols and Vikings are free to wander around our shores.
The attack on Zimbabwe does not go well. Two ACs are defeated and a crusader only just wins. However we then get some victories to leave just a single red-lined impi that retreated from a crusader last turn!
We then turn our attention to Intombe. The jumbo 'B' takes out the first impi and then our army takes out the last defender and enters the town. Unfortunately it only has 1MP left otherwise it could have moved onto Zimbabwe. Two Zulu workers are merged into Intombe.

IBT
A Zulu galley appears close to Bonn chased by two barbs.
Hyderabad: Uni>jumbo
Birka can withstand the force of our culture no more and seeks to be part of our nation-we accept of course.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_BirkaFlip.JPG

10-830AD
I drop off a couple of crusaders in Dacca to protect our silk town and there are a couple of jumbos in a caravel heading for the furs.
Another crusader loses to an Impi but the second one makes no mistake and Zimbabwe is taken-the two captured slaves join this town. The Zulu now have just two towns in the South.
Ask the Vikings to go away-yawn.

I suggest that you keep an eye on the Mongol galley-there's a jumbo to be built next turn that can shadow it. Two jumbos in Zimbabwe can do the same with the Zulu galley if you want.

Madras needs water if the iron is going to be worked-I suggest the two workers in Karachi can do that next turn.

Plenty of cash if you want to rush a couple of builds. I was trying to get some military to the other continent just in case we get into a war there. Once we've got some more troops we could wind-up the Vikings. :D

Research plan ideas? We're in the IA in two turns-I presume that we don't want to go for Democracy.

Sorry that I didn't hook up the bananas, D!

Beorn-On deck
Lullaby
Khan
Tone-Just played
Daghda (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_830_AD.SAV)-Up

Research ideas, for me, are Military tradition (3 speed cavs will help in a new continent), democraty and a RP beeline after (we'll need workers to work faster).

Team, should we care at all for democraty? Corruption, worker speed and unit support will probably help us, and we are religious so my take is yes.

If so, what should be the priorities? Mil Trad, Demo, RP, ironclads (:lol: ) ... and in what order?

My concerns about democracy are WW. However they are only minor as we have planty of lux to cope-we just might need to use the slider once in a while.

Mtrad is fine but I was hoping to delay it until we had more jumbos to upgrade. Not a lot of difference here either though and if we do go for Demo I would like this as well as less troops in enemy territory=less WW.

I guess I'm not really that fussed either way as we have a massive tech lead. I just want to knock out the Vikings!

B-line for RP is good for me. Democracy has a few value. Lets advance.
MT is good for fast progression and expansion.

Got It and will take a closer look tomorrow, g'night...Zzz

IBT
res to 50%, mag still in 2, net +279
D-pur->jumbo
Comanget->jumbo
Karachi btR->jumbo
(1)
workers to water Madras
change to settler in Nuremberg
rush settler in Zimbabwe
IBT
Mao wants to swap TMap, I say we
keep him in the dark for a while.
Mag. in, start on Steam
Zimbabwe->temple
Nuremberg->worker
Khanalabad->worker
Kolhapur->bank
(2)
Res. to 80%, steam in 5, net +91
rush rax in Dacca
rush rax in Karachi
IBT
Shake comes for peace and gets it for Swazi +
all his gold, 11 g's, pfft.
Leipzig->worker
Bangalore->jumbo
Khanalabad->musket
Bombay->worker
Karachi->worker
Dacca->lib. and rush
(3)
move things
play with res slider for more gold
IBT
Isand->galleon
Ganges->jumbo
Dacca->cath
(4)
Not much
IBT
D-pur->jumbo
Jaipur->bank
Punjab->worker
Bombay->worker
(5)
rush worker in Karachi
Unload some jumbos in Calcutta
IBT
Karakorum->jumbo
Ta-Tu->court
Bapedi->galleon
Karachi->worker
(6)
unload 2 AC in Dacca
IBT
Smith's ready in Delhi->bank
Madras->worker
Punjab->jumbo
(7)
res to 40%, steam in 1
move things
IBT
steam in, go for electricity at 80% in 6 turns, net +26
Leipzig->court
Madras->bank
Coman->worker
Karachi btR->jumbo
Bengal->worker
Ulaan->duct
Bombay->lib
(8)
We have coal NE of Karachi which will
take for about forever to connect, and one
source between heidelberg and Leipzig. I send
settler to sit on that spot
Unload troops in Indus
tell viking worker to leave
IBT
D-pur->university
Bangalore->jumbo
Comang->bank
Khanalaba->jumbo
Hyder->jumbo
Ganges->jumbo
(9)
again tell viking worker to sod off. Raggie says "yeah, right"
move workers to connect coal S Heidelburg
IBT
Lullapuhr->jumbo
(10)
Settler to Coal City stands in Koeningsberg
Tell Viking worker to please leave
Chinese MI’s are approaching the Karachi coal supply.
Unload troops including settler in Indus
Rush rax in Indus
Change market to court in Leipzig

No big deals really. Research is towards RP and steam revealed 2 coal scourses to be connected. I adressed the lack of workers and built a few so we can rail our core further on. I think settler in H-burg should sit on the coal to get it faster, decent spot anyway. The settler in Indus could go to free spot NW. Nothing really useful besides tiles for domination and a faster route to Viking land. Furs should be connected by Indus. Maybe use some gold to rush things over there. The Chinese MI's look like they are planning to attack the Karachi coal so be prepared for that. Left a little force around the core for possible defending.
We are so ahead in tech I advocate more use of gold rushing builds. When it's time for upgrading we can zero research a few turns to afford that.

I fully agree on the 0 research for upgrades. We're going on war, not in space, right :D

Agreed! Rails make defending so much easier. RP will get our workers going so much faster and infantry/arty is a nice bonus. That just leaves MTrad for cavs and we're pretty much done I guess. (We don't need much cash for upgrades anyway.)

Got it, though I'm up in just about all my SG's, so I'll come around to it sometime ;)

Pre-Turns: Boot orders.

T1: Rush stuff here and there, notice the Norse and the Chinesse have a very very low culture, so I say we take full advantage of this and prepare settlers to advance through territory we flip.

T2: Delhi changed to a ToE pre-build, so that we get RP/Industrialisation and we can stop researching for a while.
Successful boot order to Mao: war with the chinese has been officialised.

T3: Rush a lot of settlers, mostly on the other continent

T5: Culture war has begun, our treasury is emptied by colonial temples.

T6: WW kicks in. Can't manage to hold Birka, the flipped town to the south, near Karachi.

T8: Expansion from Dacca in the heart of chinese territory looks really good; it seemed we had depleted their troops, they brought more but we are still good to go.

Coal is colonized and some workers are railroad-to automated.

T9: Stole the only iron off the chinese, so that they will be left with only archers to build until they learn invention.

T10: The west is almost conciliated, our army is no longer bound to serve as a city guard for riders and reinforcements have arrived to both fronts. We need to send more still, but it looks alright as it is.

To the West:
http://www.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/ChinaW.gif

To the East:
http://www.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/ChinaE.jpg

Edit: that's the misfortunate best I could do with the pic.

Woo. i was mentioned again.

The west looks ugly indeed :lol:. Good thing we can start to teach Mao some manners, he needs it!

@Chunky
Boo...

Can't play before saturday. You might want to skip me.

Thing with those images is that whenever I upload a jpg to my school server, there's a 50/50 chance that the file configuration, for some odd reason, is screwed up and has a drastic change in color, even a lateral shift sometimes. So I post a gif instead, which doesn't quite produce the same results.

I can't take it tonight, so Lullaby, we can wait you.

Turn 0, 1050 AD:
Someone forgot to complement the Mongols out of our territory.

Turn 1, 1060 AD:
Some bad lock cost me an elite musket and a vet musket to an archer on flat land.
Mongols are still in our lands. They don't get it.

IBT: Chinese Rider recaptures Canton.

Turn 2, 1070 AD:
Several cities are running food deficit. This is violating the rules.
Raise lux to 20% due to war weariness.
Recapture Canton.
Just can't get the Mongols to declaring war.

IBT: Research Rep Parts

Turn 3, 1080 AD:
Set Daghdapur to ToE.

IBT: Chinese destroy Dacca. As I planned.

Turn 4, 1090 AD:
Capture Hangchow.

Turn 5, 1100 AD:
March on to Bejing.

Turn 6, 1110 AD:
...

Turn 7, 1120 AD:
...

IBT: Chinese capture Canton.

Turn 8, 1130 AD:
Kill 4 pikes in Bejing. Only one MDI remains.
Recapture Canton. But our Eastern China Army Group is at an end.

IBT: Chinese capture new Bangalore.

Turn 9, 1140 AD:
Capture Bejing. Our army moves on to Shanghai.

IBT: Rep Parts in. Research on Industrialization.

Turn 10, 1150 AD:
A stupid reg pike redlines our half full army at Shanghai and a vet jumbo, a spear redlines another jumbo flawlessly.

Our only rubber is at Bejing and not connected yet.
The Mongols won't declare. I booted them and wanted money every turn.
The eastern part of the China colonies is weakly defended. 4 jumbos are on their way, but mainly we will need some infantry.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/D1_1150_AD.SAV)

Whoops, I didn't received the thread notification. I see it, will play tomorrow morning.
Good night.

D1 1150 AD
(0)
We’re not really efficient in the RailNet build. I stop a few worker tasks (like RRing unmined mountain) At least no civ can compare to our military strength. Kill some exposed Chinese units. We were not supposed to have rubber, but we will soon. :D :evil: WM sales get us a lot of money (about 70g) so we can add 10% science and lower industrialisation time by one turn. We have exposed units and will probably lose some. Rearrange stuff hoping the Chinese lack fast units. Cover the WE in danger.
(IBT) Madras cathedral – WE. Canton temple – court. Karachi musket – musket. Calcutta riots… Swazi temple – harbour. Indus riots. New Delhi worker – harbour. New Madras musket – court.
(1)
I’m sorry guys, but we have plenty of barracks in hopelessly corrupted cities that will build a single unit for the entire game. I sell some – in Hangchow, New Madras, change build in Matsuyama. Automated workers! Please don’t do this. The AI is actually: RRing mountains, foresting tundra and mining unworked hills instead of roading. I repeat: Please don’t automate workers, this is entirely against the SG code/
Load a caravel of Jumbos for the other continent. Kick out the Mongols
(2) .
Kill some Chinese units. Pike redlines elite WE but we take New Bangalore. Lose 2 WE against pikes in Chengdu. They redlined each time :mad: Reinforcements are close, they will pay.
(IBT) MDI kills a WE in new Bangalore. Redlined him too. That’s the leitmotif of this game. Beijing resistance ends. 33% war unhappiness nationwide. If we had communism I would have revolted.
(3)
The army plus 2 WE are next to Shanghai. First Jumbo backups arrive. 2 jumbos in the west side, 4 in the east with 3 due next turn. The Chinese will pay the victims. Just for the stats, they are ready to pay a lot for peace.
(IBT) Volcano eruption destroys Intombe. Stupid Zulus can’t you watch out where you build your cities!
(4)
Our army loses too much hitpoints but we take Shanghai. Two Jumbos kill pikes in Chengdu, then two others die to redlined pike and regular spear. Now tell me that the RNG is really neutral. Threaten Tatung. It’s on a hill, I expect a lot of redlined pikes. We need those cavs.
(IBT) I forgot to kick the Mongols, sorry. We get 3 palace extensions and rubber online. Finally a WE resists an MDI attack.
(5)
Finally take Chengdu, losing another WE to spear. :mad: :MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD:
I was wrong about Tatung. They don’t even redline while killing our WE. We lose one but take the city. No resistance. They had captured one of our workers!
(IBT) Chinese have only archers now. Indus – MT.
(6)
Wounded army is not strong enough to kill 2 regular pikes, retires at Anyang. The WE finish the job. I’m RRing D-puhr to accelerate ToE, due in 11 now.
(7)
As usual, when we face hostile RNG in the beginning of the war, the end is easy. 4 WE kill 4 pikes in Tientsin and we take the city. There were redlined too.
(8)
Until the end of my turns I foresee the chinese playing OCC, unless there’s a flip.
(9)
Chinan captured. Elite WE lost against elite spear. Kaifeng will be ours next turn.
(10)
As I said, the Chinese are playing OCC now.
Infantry protect our border with Germany. They have Music Theory now, buy it if you want to.
I wasn’t really concentrated on the builds in core cities. Next player may want to change some. I was concentrated on the war. We have the money and Leo’s for upgrades, have fun.
We’re going for Domination, we own 42% of the land and 58% of the population.

A 'got it' just about within 24 hours!

I was playing my turns on Khan's game last night when I saw his post here and meant to take a look after my set on that game but I forgot. :)

Chinese at OCC, nice job. I would have thought they would have asked for peace earlier, like a Temujin I know :mad:

RRing mountains is like the best idea ever. Had we been the russians, I would have had them shot.

By the way, Intombe was our city, so there's a free location now for remplacement. I haven't build a settler but we can pull one out quite fast.

I had intended to play tonight but I've only just home from work and it's past 11pm. I will try to play tomorrow but I'll understand if you are fed up waiting for me to get on with it. Please just post a got it note so that I know not to start playing from Khan's save.

@Tone
It's OK to wait for me cause I'm up to my neck in preparing for my exam and can't "got it" tomorrow anyway. If someone else want to have a go, you guys make the deal.

I can play now-sorry again for the delay.