Tim01 finished in a conquest loss due to an overwhelming dogpile. First, some copy and pasting:

Version: C3C 1.22f
Difficulty: Demigod
Civilization: America
Size: standard
Landmass: 60% continents
Barbarians: random
Climate: random
Temperature: random
Age: random
All victory conditions enabled, but only diplomatic will be considered successful
Rest is normal

Here is the variant, copied from Arathorn's variant list:
Defiant: You must never give in to a demand from an opponent, that is, you always reject demands for tribute. You may never ally, sign a Right of Passage, MPP, or embargo with another civilization. You may never pay for peace (a peace treaty must either be straight-up or the opponent gives a concession to you. A deal where a tech costs 20 gpt normally and you pay 10 gpt for that tech as part of a peace treaty is fine). Any troops on your soil must be given a boot order every turn. No capturing foreign cities or demanding them in diplomacy. No foreign workers merged into existing cities. If an AI razes one of your cities, that civ must be eliminated.

Roster:
Pied Piper
tomasjj
Whomp
skunk
TimBentley

The roster is full as long as everyone wants to play again.

A few things have been learned from the first attempt. Razed cities are bad. If a city is likely to be razed, we should abandon it or give it away. We should prepare for a possible AW, including three-tile spacing. With the potential of wars, we should make sure we keep our reputation secure. I would advise against water trading prior to the discovery of astronomy. I also decided to go for standard to reduce the number of potential enemies.

I'll get around to rolling a few starts soon.

Checking in Cmdr. Bentley. :salute:

Here are a few starts. I also got a start with two wheats and about 4 BGs, but I forgot to save it. :blush:

A:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim02a.JPG

B:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim02b.JPG

C:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim02c.JPG

The saves are attached.

I will take the 2 wheat with 4 BG's.
"A" seems to be the best of the rest and could share wheat to the south.

Reporting in.
Agree with Whomp.
A seems to be the best.
B looks like a small peninsula.
C, not as good as A. Just ok.
jj

With A, if there is another bonus grass or two, you could set up a 6-turn combo warrior/settler pump, although that isn't necessarily the best for this variant. Military would be the focus. Once again, I'll be following, goodluck. :)

I also think A is the best option. Will be happy to start us off again. Hope Skunk will be joining too.

Game File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02BC3000.SAV)
T0: Head SW with Scout to scope out a more central capital location, find hut and get CB.
T1: Head for the hills to the east
T2: Scout east for more hills.
T3: More hills and mountains over a flood plain, hut to the north.
T4: Get settler from hut, I can live with that. Its at least two moves to a better tile but 5 mountains out of 9 is too much to not move.
T5: Wash: scout>granary (JK), Scout gets BW from hut. Meet Persia we are up Pot and CB, they have 35 gold.
T5: Scout finds grapes, settler moves south again
T6: Meet Scandanavia, they have Alpha/WC/10g and we have CB/Pot/BW/Mas, scout finds another wheat to the west.
T7: Scout gets map by the second grapes to the north. Found NY.
T8: Find cow and grapes to the west as well. Scan & Persia about to meet. Trade Scan CB/Pot for WC/10g, Trade Persia CB for 35g
10: Wash: warrior>settler
11: Barbs approach the western scout who runs away and gets Myst from hut.
12: West scout climbs 3 cow mountain and contacts Germany who has nothing to trade.
17: NY: warrior>worker
18: Wash: settler>warrior, Persia has 3 workers available so I trade Scan Myst/117g for Alpha, trade Persia Myst/Alpha/2g/3gpt for 3 workers
20: Set lux to 10% for 1 turn, suggest next build for DC to be scout then granary.

One scout was not moved, I believe Germany/Persia may be at war.
VERY IMPORTANT! Awesome trade opportunity just became available. Germany got IW and we have many techs to trade for it.
Scandinavia has a worker and lots of gold to pay for IW. Persia we may not want to trade it to since NY is so close to them.
Settler heading south for cows and/or grapes


Still feeling a little under the weather from yesterday, will embellish and edit for pics tomorrow.

Right on. Good to get started.
I got it, and will play when I get home from work.
1800 CET.
jj

Looks like a mighty fine start to things PP!!!

Pre-turn 3000bc:

MM Washington.
Switch research to Poly on min. Guess we want Monarchy.
Get IW + 10g from Germany for Alpha, Myst, Mason and Pottery.
Expensive though.
Sell IW to Ragnar for 85g and a worker.
Only visible iron source is south near German border...No, one more east of NY on coast.
Switch NY to warrior.

1 - 2950
Wash: warrior-scout
One more scout to pop some techs...then granary.
2 - 2900
zzz
3 - 2850
zzz
4 - 2800
wash: scout-granary
getting ready to chop
Boston founded near cows. Set to rax.
5 - 2750
pop a hut get warrior.
6 - 2710
switch wash to warrior as barb approach.
7 - 2670
NY:warrior-worker
8 - 2630
we take out a barb coming from the north
All the others have the wheel now. We will have to pay 175g for it.
Bummer that I havent found more huts.
I wait.
9 - 2590
chop done.granary in 8.
workers are building roadnetwork for quick expansion.
we have dyes in the north.. but looks like only one.
IT:NY loses pop to disease.
10 - 2550
zzz
---------------------
The wheel is still there to be bought if we want it.
Nothing much to report. Germans and Persians were at war in the start of the turns.
Scandy was involved too as I saw a couple stray warriors move towards Germany.
jj

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02_2550_BC.SAV)

Good show JJ. I will take a look tonight. Considering the AI are warring we may be able to wait on HBR for a bit until we fill a few more spots and let the price come down.

Who are those purple guys? Hopefully they won't be looking to come home when we fill in.

Maybe a dotmap is in order? We seem to have some good river spots east and west. I like the spot on the coast with the wheat NW of DC. It could also start the watering to all those plains south of it.

Looks good so far. Last I checked, skunk hadn't been online since the 23rd, so I'll open up another spot. If skunk gets back, a six-player roster is fine.

Second game in a row I was confident one start would be the unanimous choice.

Pre turn nada
IBT disease in NY
2510 See a scan vet NW
IBT Scan kills barb. X-Man wants to know if I'm blind. I leave.
2470 DC grows lux to 10%
IBT Vikes start Colossus. Persian spear kills something.
2430 zzz
IBT Vike Warrior dies vs something. They start Oracle (Trondheim) and finish Colossus in Trondheim (holy cow that was fast)
2390 See goody hut
IBT zzz
2350 Pop a settler! Scout is dead though as it's next to a camp. Move settler away. DC gran in 1. Germs sell us a worker for 120g.
IBT Barb horse near Boston. Scout killed.
2310 DC gran-->settler NY worker-->worker
IBT Nice little battle with Germs and Persians near Perepolis
2270 zzz
IBT more battles.
2230 Lux to 40% for Boston
IBT zzz
2190 Boston needs more? Scientist and move lux to 20%.
IBT Barb horse goes north toward wine worker. Barb warrior breaks off from our settler.
2150 DC settler-->settler

---summary----

HBR is still the same price and no new techs. There are two settlers to place. I think the one I popped should head towards the hills because the only iron now is east of NY. Far far. Barbs are lurking around so try to get escorts. We're pretty widely spaced right now so we should discuss the map. I placed a few dots and those may even be a bit far away.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim.JPG

Maybe you should have written your log like an idiot. ;) Those dots do look widely spaced, although they may fit into a fuller dotmap. A quick thought: maybe the yellow one SW?

Roster:
TimBentley - up and got it
Pied Piper - on deck
tomasjj
Whomp - just played

skunk - can be fit in if heard from

Tim--I think the Admiral avatar went from idiocy to lunacy.

I was hoping to clear fog and find iron near the yellow (wishful thinking)
We have a happiness issue so I would try to capture the wines too.

Spacing seems a bit wide imo.
When settling Boston I was thinking "backfill" later.

Right-o. Way wide it is.
The wines are necessary though or our lux will run high or ok with scientist. You got it on yellow. I was hoping to find some iron under that fog. How about on the river on the hill by the 2 slaves W (captures wheat)
Maybe buy HBR on the 2nd settler out of DC to see if we have horses around. Hopefully the price will come down a bit.

2150(0)-I don't like the scientist in Boston (though it's the right thing); it needs roads
The wheel is a bit expensive for my tastes
We need to get a couple of curraghs out, so a city on the coast soon would be nice
Whomp's suggestion first, though
lux to 10%

IBT-barb horse goes next to Boston (hmm, military advisor only mentions Apaches near New York; who knows HBR? (other continent or ours?))

2110(1)-Persia must have learned writing and sold it to the Vikings; Germany also knows it but has same money amount
Chances of winning are higher on attack, warrior loses, what will barb do? (tested it, it will pillage rax)
:) settler sees iron
lux to 20%, science to 10%
Why is the governor emphasizing food?

IBT- :( Lupacas pillage work on rax
According to St. Augustine, Germany is glorious (#1), Russia is great (#2), Persia is fine (#3), Vikings are pathetic (#6), and we are forgotten (#8), in terms of power. Well, if nobody remembers us, they won't go to war with us, right?

2070(2)-switch Boston to warrior

2030(3)-conscript meets barb warrior
I think irrigation to Boston will come from Washington

IBT-conscript beats barb

1990(4)-Found Philadelphia near iron, start on warrior; found Atlanta near wheat, start on worker

IBT-Washington settler->rax (throw in units as well as settlers)

1950(5)-buy the wheel from Vikings for 175g
You'd think we had the same knowledge as the AI by our city placement: there's horses by Oslo, Reykjavik, New York, and Boston
HBR is known by Persia, Vikings, but is unaffordable

IBT-Boston warrior->worker

1910(6)-conscript warrior dies attacking barb
scout finds barb camp, but only the stationary barb there

IBT-New York worker->worker

1870(7)-Viking archer took out the barb camp

1830(8)-Found Chicago by wines, start on worker

IBT-Philadelphia warrior->barracks

1790(9)-zzz

1750(10)-scout finds goody hut

Notes: Feel free to change the current builds
There's still some land to explore west of Chicago
Workers should bring irrigation south from Washington to irrigate Boston's cow soon

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02_1750BC.JPG

Here's a dotmap I did too quickly (which is why it's a bit confusing). Feel free to do a better one.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/quickTim02dotmap.JPG

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02_1750_BC.SAV).

Roster:
Pied Piper - up
tomasjj - on deck
Whomp - being a complete idiot
TimBentley - just played
Open spot

skunk - can be fit in if heard from

Nice turns Tim! Idiots like horses and iron. We got pretty lucky on the iron being right there!

#1 spot for me is on the blue pointing arrow on the coast (don't get gunshy fellas there aren't any frigates around ;) ) gets the river, cow and shares the wheat.
#2 I kinda like the red spot north of DC (wish it was 1s) with water and bg's galore, tobbaco.
#3 River plain spot below the DC star.
#4 Hill between Chicago and Boston?

You guys have a good chunk of gold. I would expect the demands to hand it over could start soon. Maybe you should hand it over along with some of your GPT for HBR. Or maybe you should just up the Lux for a while to avoid keeping large coffers.

Good point MOTH. Even if the AI is warring we have no military so there is that risk. It may be time to just pay up for HBR. I'd like to get horses in the mix especially with our wide placements.

Thoughts on this map. Another would be 1E1S of green dot.
Blue, green red would be my choices.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim1.JPG

blue for contacts and coastal, agreed.
But I think we shouuld try to link NY to the rest of our empire too.
so that means red before green imo.

jj

Looks like I am up, sorry I have been a little out of it with illness the last few days. Will get right on it.

Change Phil to worker in order to hook up Iron and not conflict with DC expansion
Buy HBR for 144g/3gpt from Persia since price is same as Vikings and they need to be cut down
Should be getting demands in 3 to 5 turns

T1
DC: barracks>spearman, Boston: worker>temple, Atlanta: worker>barracks
Trade Germany HBR/16g/5gpt for writing
Get 50 gold from hut

T2
Vikings and Germany want 21 gold, both declare.
Rush barracks in Boston, switch other cities to military production

T3
Vikings approach Chicago with an archer.

T4
Vikings ally with Persia against us.
Attack Viking archer with warrior and damage it, attack with second and lose.
Cannot give away Chicago so I abandon it.

T5
Wash: horseman>warrior

T7
Vikings warrior approaches DC from the north, persian archers NY from the south

T8
Kill warrior north of DC with horse
Rush archer in NY

T9
Lose one warrior in NY and kill one archer, no hp loss on either side.
Kill another archer south of NY.
Kill warrior north of Philly with horse.

T10
Viking archer kills scout, Persian archer promotes warrior in NY, Viking archer approaches NY.
Horse dies attacking Viking archer

May wish to rush walls


Save File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02BC1500.SAV)

The wars certainly began quickly. At least we got out of our gpt payments.

Roster:
tomasjj - up
Whomp - on deck
TimBentley
Pied Piper - just played
Open spot

skunk - can be fit in if heard from

Good going PP. They wasted no time. Like the trade and abandoning Chicago was the best thing to do.

I got it....
jj

Sorry that I didn't let you hear from me for so long. Unfortunately I won't be able to participate in this game.

Good luck! I will be lurking!

That's a drag Skunk. Hope all is well and we will do our best without you. ;)

1500 BC
Pre turn:
Rush walls in Philly.

1 - 1475:
Philly: walls-spear
Atlanta: Warrior:Rax.
Horse beats Viking warrior.
Vikings have two vet archers coming towards Philly to add to the two warriors already circling.

IT:
Viking warrior beats ours in Philly.

2- 1450:
Wash: Horse-Horse.
We have only two horses to fight my evil ancestors outside Philly. They outnumber us, but we will not cave in.
We will attack their vet archers! Only hope as we have only a reg warrior left there.
Man.. this sucks ass. Both our horsemen die after redlining the vet archers. That means they didnt retreat....
Philly is toast.
No peace to be had.
I up the lux and move two more warriors into Philly from wash, and one from atlanta into wash.
Rush walls in NY.

IT:
Viking warrior loses to our warrior. Phew. And the two injured archers move out of our territory to heal.
NY: walls-spear.
Boston: warrior-spear.

3- 1425:
zzzzzz

IT:
Wash: spear-horse.
Germans show us a spear near Boston.

4 - 1400:
zzzz

IT:
Barbs in the south. Nice.. on top of it all.
Germans show us a lot of troops near Boston. Shame on them!
Pyramids completed by Celts.

5 - 1375:
Move troops.. the few we have.
No peace. Persia closest, 120gold. The other want 220-240.

IT:
Germans pillage our Horses. We couldnt take on their spear with our two warriors in Boston.
Now they are launching the archers too.
Persia storm towards NY with a pile of archers. Thank Allah it wasnt Immortals.

6 - 1350:
I got no troops to redeploy towards Boston.
Since the people there was whiped hard before my turns there are only one pop still there.
So no whippin' now to get walls possible.

IT:
3 archers against our two warriors ends with Boston being burned by the Germans. We only managed to kill one incoming archer.
We are now without horses.
Persia closing in on NY. NY has two warriors and an archer. Persia count 3 archers, one reg, one vet, one elite.

7 - 1325:
Our only horse kills a viking archers and upgrades to elite.
Wow. what good would an army do.... fill it with archers? spears or warriors? I sit down to contemplate on this hypothetical question for a while....
The price for peace has increased upon Bostons destruction.
Even with walls in NY we stand a better chance attacking the Persian archers. I launch our forces. Our warrior beats vet archer! Yeah!
Our reg archer beats elite archer! Great! NY still stands a chance!
Our vet warrior finishes the last reg persian archer. No troops in vicinity! I throw a party.
Doesnt seem like germans moved north towards our capital after burning Boston.
Good.

IT:
Persia show us another archer near NY.
The Ancient New Jersey turnpike is completed... between NY and DC.
Barbs in the north too. No sleep till Brooklyn in this one...
NY riots.
DC: archer-archer.

8 - 1300:
Nothing.
Just thought that our workers should hook up the iron since our horses are gone. I also cant connect horses outside NY yet due to lurking persians.
I need a spear for decent protection for our sturdy hands.
IT:
Poly comes in. Set research to Monarchy.
We have lots of gold. AI will want all that for peace. Also two AIs dont have Poly.
We lose two slaves to a barb horse due to my foolishness.

9 - 1275:
Not much. For a change.
IT:
NY riots again. What am I doing? Oh, I turned down the lux...

10 - 1250:
Move more workers into Atlanta for protection.

This is not going well.
Sorry, but I dont think I couldve done a lot better, apart from a couple lost slaves and some mini riots.
No peace to be had.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02_1250_BC.SAV)

Below: Smoke signals over NY. Didnt think we would ever see the Cherokee doing that.Ugh!

When you say Boston burned was the city razed?
Ouch. Freakin' dogpile again. :(

Yeah, razed by the Krauts.

Oh my......that spells big big trouble for the home team.
I may not be able to play much tonight but tomorrow looks good. Suggestions are welcome and needed.

I forgot to say any farewell to skunk. I can't think of any comments that aren't obvious.

Roster:
Whomp - up
TimBentley - on deck
Pied Piper
tomasjj - just played
Open spot (doesn't anybody want to join our dogpile?)

We probably need some clarification..."If an AI razes one of your cities, that civ must be eliminated". By game end or immediately?

That was a question last game as well. In that game, we were willing to sign peace with the razers, but we would have been obliged to wipe them out before we won. A main reason why I agreed is because the dogpile was already enough to destroy us (as it did). Thinking of it within the spirit of the defiant variant, I would think the mindset is "Those dastardly Germans! They have razed Boston; now we shall not rest until they are wiped from the face of the earth!" That would imply no peace. But perhaps we could rationalize peace by saying, "We'll be peaceful for now, but we'll get you eventually!" The question is whether that statement really is a defiant statement. If I play another defiant game in the future, I'll have to remember to make sure that issue is disambiguated.

In the spirit of the variant it seems to say go till they're destoryed but as we know that's not very likely. It's so difficult when they're in the AA, still expanding and our only focus is on their destruction.
Should we vote? Any lurkers want to throw their $.02 in?

Being defiant when you are a midget in terms of power is not very rational, nor smart.
We got our behinds burned the last time by razing enemy cities and after a while decided that we could make peace with our enemy-razers for a small period to ward off the pile.
Seriously, it doesnt look good. And the AIs arent keen on peace. Not at all.

No razes, no cash available for tribute (MOTH and PP called it). I feel bad now that I didn't spend all our cash.

You're not painting a very pretty picture for me JJ. Are you suggesting this game may be over before it starts? I must admit I still have visions of berserks, immortals, conquistadors, cavalry and frigates pounding on me in Timo1. :lol:

Well, I tried to tell it like it is IMO hehe...
It aint cool fighting wars surounded by three enemies in the AA. We cant get enough forces to expand our kingdom sufficiently, not to speak about how to defend what we got. Lets try and battle on though.
We should maybe have established embassies right away.
All the gold made the AI's greedy I suppose.

I will press on. There will be time to decide the "raze" issue since I have a feeling I will be on my heels the whole time. If the Persians or Scandanavians outnumber me I will abandon. BTW I thought of the embassies but we didn't have writing yet. :lol:

Well I just lost my turnlog :( (usually I put it on word and I didn't this time) so I will summarize. We have peace with the Vikes and Persians and are only down Monarchy to the Germans now.
Peace came about this way...
Peace with Vikes who gave 9g. Trade Vikes Poly and 201g for math and philo. Turn around and make peace with Persians with Poly (235g) and math (156g) for MM (235g) and CoL (195g).

We have horses and iron hooked up. A new city near Tim's 'hood Kankakee ;). Our troops in NY were valiant and this is why we have peace after a spear and a elite warrior took out 5 archers. There were some wonders built overseas. The germans....well they're still insulted. Whatever.... we have horses and iron. If you would like my turnlog I can put it up Friday night.

2 off the dogpile.... (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86646)

Our empire.....:lol:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim3.JPG

More peace certainly is good. I think I'll be able to finish playing before leaving this weekend.

Roster:
TimBentley - up
Pied Piper - on deck
tomasjj
Whomp - just played
Open spot

Edit: The link isn't working.

If we can sneak in a settler in DC it would be nice.
The city could then be settled in the north so that the germans arent getting to it.
Also, now as we have peace with persia and vikings, get embassies with them!
And do all to keep relations sweet, trade when you can.

Brain malfunction last night....

I think the horse can be change this turn to a settler. What you see from the pic is what the germans have around. It might be a good idea to try and get to the coast for some exploration too. Embassies would help attitude quite a bit.

Now it seems both links work.

@Whomp: No, the people I know outside of college here that I know are a couple of recent graduates and some people at church.

1000(0)-get Washington to 10spt, switch Philadelphia to barracks

IBT-German archer kills sword
Vikings start Great Lighthouse

975(1)-zzz

IBT-Washington horse->settler
Atlanta horse->spear
Germans start Hanging Gardens (I think)
Vikings establish embassy in our capital

950(2)-zzz

IBT-zzz

925(3)-Kill last visible German unit
Germany founded Stuttgart near old Chicago (I think)

IBT-Philadelphia rax->horse

900(4)-Healing MPs in Washington allow lowered lux, but not increased science

IBT-Washington settler->horse
Atlanta spear->sword

875(5)-and now science can be raised too
horse retreats against spear

IBT-There's more German units (I think an IBT ago too)
spear dies attacking horse

850(6)-raise lux, kill an archer

IBT-zzz

825(7)-kill archer

IBT-Atlanta sword->horse
Germans start Great Library

800(8)-kill warrior, spear, archer
How long has Odense been between Kankakee and New York? (a couple turns, perhaps)
I forgot to mention when Germany and Vikings got construction and Vikings got monarchy earlier; now both have construction
Found San Francisco, start on galley

IBT-Vikings, Germany sign MA against us
Washington horse->sword (no more horses)

775(9)-Persia knows literature

IBT-Kankakee cat->cat

750(10)-zzz

Notes: Germany is now insulted for peace
I decided to spend the money in research rather than establishing embassies
Hmm...since the picture is attached there was no need to resize it, oh well.

Roster:
Pied Piper - up
tomasjj - on deck
Whomp
TimBentley - just played
Open spot

So we are researching Monarchy first?

Turn 91
Vikings approach NY with archer and sword.
Why me? One more turn and I wouldn't have to rush a defender, this sucks.
Kill three archers.

Turn 92
Persian ally with vikings against us.
Vikings kill barb hut by the ruins of Chicago I was going to get gold from this turn.
Sword on hill dies from German archer.
Viking archer dies attacking mountain horse across the river, but almost won.

Turn 93
Germans can not lose attacking even our spearman on the hill
Kill elite archer with horse and advance back to DC.

Turn 94
Horse kills Persian archer to become elite, sword kills another.

Turn 95
Viking archer attacks sword on hill to make him elite, finally a break.
But then archer dies attacking German archer stack, whats up with that?

Turn 96
Celts complete Temple of Artemis, Russians the Hanging Gardens
Whip NY to meet the approaching Vikings

Turn 97
Germans finish MoM

Turn 98
Lose sword defending NY from Viking attack across river.
Massive uprising near Atlanta, that hut is only two turns old and I killed a unit there last turn.
Time to gamble on attacking Viking city.

Turn 99
Destroy Viking city. Still no peace option.
If allowed to capture the city then NY may have been saved but now I fear it may be lost.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/RazingCane.jpg

Turn 100
Vikings promote spear in NY but too late I fear.
Celts finish Great Lighthouse
Another break, barb horses unexpectedly move to the German city.
Did not move most units, fortified in place, have no strategy.

Situation in NY looks hopeless.
Vikings finally ready to make a deal, but that may not be wise, who am I to know?

save file (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02BC550.SAV)

Suggest building city by grapes and on the hill next to the Viking ruins.
It is possible to give Vikings NY now but how to get it back?

Back in the pile it seems. Way to hang PP.
It looks like there some possibility NY could be saved with all reg Persian Archers. Is that a possibility? Would it make sense to go after Oslo and follow with a settler for those horses as a back up?

Tim should we repost for another player?


O/T the reason I asked is I coached a pony league tournament team in Oak Park against Bourbonnais and their guy Gagnon was the man. Wild games against them. Grand Rapids ended up going to the World Series after Bourbonnais had to use him against us so much.

I can see it now. Tim03: Revenge of the Revenge of the Defiant Diplomats. Good luck with this, guys.

That's a nice place for the barb hut to be. They'll all head towards Stuttgart. The spearman and warrior each should win their first encounter, but do we want to risk a raze on the spearman winning again? I calculated about a 62% chance of winning, then I realized the spearman was veteran, not regular.

Roster:
tomasjj - up
Whomp - on deck
TimBentley
Pied Piper - just played
Open spot

I did post in the registry before, but I guess I could post again.

I got it.
Hope to get it done tonight.
I will be away from thursday until sunday night, so no playing then.

Pre-turn: 550bc

Like PP said we can get peace with the vikings.
I do it, and get 20g to boot.
This means me can expand rather untroubled in our backyard if we can sneak in a settler here and there.
NY looks a bit lost, but still, IMO, it wouldve been better to have another spear there instead of having it guard a future city spot in the west near the wines.
I hate losing cities, even small ones.
I check with the Vikings and they want 23gpt and 80g for an alliance against the Persians. Too expensive. It would also mean we would have to put reserach at min.
That would make currency in 47, not 11.
It seems like we need to raze one of their cities to get a more servile and polite answer in our negotiations.
Persia no longer wants NY for peace after our deal with Ragnar. I check if we can get peace by including gpt and currency from xerx, but he wants a total of 425 gold for soemthing thats worth 330. No can do.
But Germany will give us peace for less. We sign peace with Germany for currency and 14gpt. A total if 280, where as our remaining cost on currency is 330. So that means we get peace++, at least from what I could gather. So I take it. We need to start building good relations with our neighbours. If we are defiant we need to be powerful or to ready to lick boots. Right now, licking boots is all we can do...within the settings ;)
So, I sign peace with Xerx too now. He is more eager now as well. We can do it by giving up 13gpt for literature.
An all right deal as lit has estimated cost of 270, this costing us 260. Not the tech we need the most, but peace and keeping NY is nice.
We are despots with knowledge of modern government, but need more cash before revolting.
Research set to construction on min. Thats all we can afford now.

Press Space with peace in the valley, preparing to expand..and in time enforce revengeful iron rule.

1 -530bc
The persian archers now move towards the vikings... hehehe... much better.
Establish embassy with Persia.

2- 510bc
Barbs approach from the north.

3 - 490bc
Two settlers are moving out now. One to wines, one to link up to NY.

4- 470bc
Establish embassy with Germans.

5 - 450bc
zzz

6 - 430bc
Found Miami.

7 - 410bc
zzz

8 - 390 bc
Vikings complete great lib.

9 - 370 bc
zzz

10 - 350 bc
Whip temple in San Fran.
Settler in position to settle north of DC.
Vikings have settler party up there too, so we need to get some towns down up there before the peace deals expire.
And some army, but that goes without saying.
I have put some builds to rax in our bordertowns.

jj

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02_350_BC.SAV)

All I have to say is weewho!
I would rather pay out the gpt and play catch up than be under that pile any day. A couple suicide curraghs may be in order as well. I will try to play tonight but more likely tomorrow. My gal is feeling a little neglected the last few days.

JJ MA's are a no no.

:) Peace. Hopefully the AI will give us a chance to revolt before starting war again. Definitely knowledge of others would be helpful.

Roster:
Whomp - up
TimBentley - on deck
Pied Piper
tomasjj - just played
Open spot

Turn 0 Nada to do thanks JJ.
IBT Barb horse taken out by Vikes. SF temple-->galley
330 Establish LA on the spot with Vike settler right there. Disperse Olmecs for 25g.

IBT Philly sword-->market Atl. settler-->horse
310 zzz

IBT DC settler-->settler Persians start Sun Tzu.
290 zzz

IBT Germans start Leo's.
270 Establish Tucson. Disperse Dee Brown and Illini ;) for 25g.

IBT FP message
250 Establish Oak Park. Disperse Cherokees for 25g

IBT Everyone heads home.
230 zzz

IBT zzz
210 Raise lux for SF growth and whip the galley. Not sure if I should've but...

IBT Persians about to walk into our territory. DC settler-->settler
Atl Horse-->Horse SF galley--> worker
190 NY finally over its hangover move the clown. Hire scientist in SF. Move lux and sci down a notch.

IBT Persian...
170 Ask him to leave and he says no problemo...phew. Galley sees a sea opening...next.

IBT zzz
150 Ask Xman to leave again. No probs. BTW he's a liar and cheat so he's on someone's unhappy list. Galley goes and there is a sea opening. Hope it survives. Lux to 30% for Philly growth to 7.


Things feel better. I think we should burn the cash hard now as our deals are done and we have a fair amount of cash so I would revolt now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim4.JPG

I'm also up in SGOTM6, but I'll see if I can finish this Thursday.

Roster:
TimBentley - up
Pied Piper - on deck
tomasjj
Whomp - just played
Open spot

Things look better now.
Good turns, Whomp.
More cities and larger army will make the AI less bullying.
MA, yes, a no-no, thats right....a little slip there.
We must spend the gold so it doesnt get demanded. Maybe gpt deals for tech is the way after we have revolted and gotten into monarchy.
Or are we making so much that we can do both, i mean revolt and buy a tech from the one that is most likely to attack? I guess that could be Xerx? Ideas?
jj

IIRC all the gpt deals roll off right now so we will be flush and revolting would have very little impact or paying gpt.
Right now the big issue is luxs with slider at 20-30% unless some citizens are scientists. We have 1 lux. We may need to pull off workers and settlers in high growth towns like Philly.

A thought I had. I think anytime we see the Vikes or Persians start in on Germany we should jump on the pile. That's the closest we will come to an MA and have a chance to raze some cities. Even 2 vs 2 sounds better than 3 vs. 1.
I think they have some luxs that are really rightfully ours. ;)

150(0)-Revolt
New York will be in a riot-starve rotation
Looks like Philly will have to starve

IBT-Renew treaties with Germany, Persia
galley sinks

130(1)-Oops, I thought the rioting cities would gain food (I should have known otherwise)

IBT-Philadelphia, New York starve

110(2)-settle New Orleans

90(3)-zzz

IBT-Philadelphia starves

70(4)-zzz

IBT-become a monarchy

50(5)-10% lux is sufficient
Turn up research to avoid high gpt payment for construction
Do appropriate MM, switch San Francisco to galley

30(6)-zzz

IBT-Washington settler->settler
Tucson worker->worker
Persia starts Leo's

10(7)-I must ask Persia to leave, and they declare war
This allows lux to go to 0%
switch Houston to walls
kill archer with sword
Misclick moving sword to help

IBT-Persian archer kills vet spear, reg spear survives two attacks
Atlanta horse->horse
Miami rax->horse
Houston walls->rax

10 AD(8)-zzz

IBT-Persians heading to New York?

30(9)-sword promotes killing archer
This should help avoid demands: buy construction from Vikings for 114g, 4gpt
Germany has monotheism, Germany and Vikings have feudalism, engineering

IBT-Vikings start Leo's

50(10)-Ask Viking settler pair to leave, he says he will, but it's not automatic

Notes: Persia had no iron or horses last time I checked, so it shouldn't be too hard to fight off their archers
No trades are close to available; if we reach the other continent, hopefully some deals will be available
There's a couple of settlement spots left: SW of Miami and S of Washington
The settler can settle on the spot

Roster:
Pied Piper - up
tomasjj - on deck
Whomp
TimBentley - just played
Open spot

They're the ones I'm least afraid of especially without iron. Let's pound these guys.

No one up?
I can play today if PP is not around to take it.
Maybe a switch?
jj

I would say go ahead JJ.

Actually am playing now, was away for weekend and this is the only time I have to play, will post ASAP.http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LuckyPunk.jpg

How is it going?
If you get it done soon, I can take my turns straight away.
A leader rocks!
Wait for feudalism to form a MI army or go for a sword one?

Throw two spearman on the mountain between NY and Houston.
Persia will have to attack it or commit to attack one city or the other.
Reinforce Oak Park just in case Vikings attack instead of leave.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/NotAgain.jpg

130
Persia archers head west
Vikings head south, so F4, they declare war
Catapult damages their sword and elite horse goes in for the kill to get slaves and a GL.
Don't see us getting Feud too soon so create army.
Analysis determines razing Oslo as first objective, will reduce flip risk on two cities.
Kill two Persian archers.

131
Vikings have beserks now, luckily the forward horseman retreated from the attack.
Persians lose an archer but also kill a spearman.
Unbelievable, lose the full health Lucky Punk horsemen to a redlined Viking sword in unmodified combat.
What are the odds of that? (I mean if the probability distribution of the RNG wasn't so lumpy)
Kill two swords and a beserk
Found Baltimore

132
Heroic Epic now available
redlined sword kills our horse across the river.
Kill Viking settler/archer with horse

133
Viking archer kills sword on the hill.
Kill two more Persian archers and a Viking archer

135
Viking Sword kills half strength army in New Orleans, attacking across river without getting a scratch.
Kill the sword in revenge and another Viking archer coming out of Germany.

136
Make peace with Persia get Engineering/27g for 46gpt, bump lux to 10%

138
NY revolts even though it is balanced? Don't understand that.
Finally getting some momentum against Vikings. New batch of swords now available.

139
Redlined horse in back country of Viking territory finally makes it safely home.
Kill another archer.

140
Kill another Viking archer coming out of Germany.
Kill Viking beserk south of Stavang.

*** Left a horse to move, I would place in stack with catapult. ***

Game File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02AD250.SAV)

Viking Sword kills half strength army in New Orleans, attacking across river without getting a scratch.
That is not cool. The RNG Gods were not so kind to you PP.

Those berserks could be a pain (make sure they don't attack).

Roster:
tomasjj - up
Whomp - on deck
TimBentley
Pied Piper - just played
Open spot

Got it...
Hope to make some peace deals again :)
hopefully with Ragnar....
And we should deal with persia while they have no real units.

I have done the first 6 turns and are banking on getting in the last four tonight.
jj

Preturn - 250AD:
Switch build to walls in Baltimore.
No tech buying to be done from the Persians or Germans.
Vikings wont talk.
Rush a horse.
Rush walls in New Orleans.
Move spears from San Fran towards the front. No point in having 3 spears in a backyard town when they are in short supply further towards the front.
It looks like there is a plan to take Stavanger and then get peace. Not sure we got the force to pull that one, considering the zerks and the pikes. We dont have the numbers, but maybe with a couple of cats we can do it. I will check it out, at least.

Turn 1- 260AD:
The RNG hates us. Two vet swords lose to a regular zerk, unfortified on grassland.
I move troops into New Orleans to see if we can get peace in a turn or two.

IT: Egyptians have been destroyed.

Turn 2 - 270AD:
Finally a little break. Take out two zerks near Stavanger.
Hurry spear in Houston.
Buy gems from Persia for 12gpt.
This allows us to lower lux, making the same amount as before roughly. And keep it cool with Xerx.

Turn 3 - 280AD:
zzzz

Turn 4 - 290 AD:
Zerks on the horizon...
They are just circling, not launching the big one...yet.

Turn 5 - 300 AD:
We gotta up the lux as our cities grow.
Zerks incoming. They want our Gumbo and Red Beans in New Orleans. Bon Courage!
We take out 3 zerks, losing one vet horse. Not bad.

Turn 6 - 310 AD:
Vikings will talk.
I see no reason why not to take peace and 1 gold from them. Zerks are tough motha's, especially when they are fired up by gumbo in their bellies. Once again, peace in the valley.
Hurry rax in NY.

Turn 7 - 320 AD:
Nothing noteworthy.

Turn 8 - 330 AD:
Nothing. Peace in our time. I am building units and a couple of settlers to put down a few more cities in between

Turn 9 - 340 AD:
Viking galleys have entered our territories near San Fran.
Tell Vikings to leave...He says yet... but it was no ultimatum.
Feudalism takes a long time, and we have to research it ourselves since it costs a lot of mollah.
This will make us lag in tech.

Turn 10 - 350 AD:
Settler enroute to hill west of New Orleans. Lafayette perhaps?
Set DC to temple as it will riot when it grows.
Feudal in 31 now.. thats a long long time.
Vikings still inside.... I say leave....still no ultimatum. He says ok...perhaps some other day.
Boy is he right.

jj

Visiting viking longboat:

And the save......

Peace out brother JJ! Holy Kamona the Egyptians? There must be a beast overseas.
When it rains it pours. I am up in two other SGs. If someone (Tim?)wants to slip in please do or I will hit it this weekend.

I'm up in another one, so I doubt I'll be able to get to it before you.

I noticed that Russia owns the Statue of Zeus in Memphis.

If we can manage to stay out of war, it would be nice to build up to attack Germany some time.

Hi guys,
I see there's an open spot, can I get it? DG is not frightening me, defiant neither.

Welcome Khan. If you would like go ahead and pick up the save. I am not going to be able to get to it until tomorrow or Sunday.

Avoid getting razed it's better to abandon if you don't think you can save a city. Keep our neighbors happy. If you see someone attack the germans I would consider declaring on them since we will eventually have to raze all their cities.

@ Tim I assume the Russians eliminated the Egyptians.

OK i've got it. I need some time to reread the thread though, update soon.

Welcome. So the roster stands thus:

Roster:
Khan_Asparuh - up
Whomp - on deck
TimBentley
Pied Piper
tomasjj - just played

So...
Tim02 : Revenge
(0) 350AD
NY scientist can be fired. MM Philadelphia for Horse next turn.
We’re late scientifically but have a good army. Wonders tell us we’r really back, Germany builds Cops! :eek:
Research goes up. Feudalism in 16 at -52 (I know, we can’t hold this for long).
Looks like we really like the principle “Mine green, irrigate yellow”. Our cities have very few choice in MM.
(1)
SF galley – court, this city has potential but is too corrupted.
Miami horse – aqueduct
The Vikes are building the Chapel
German archer prevents our settler from going on that hill.
NY gets his scientist again because of growth. I change it to worker; I really see no use of a spear at 2spt. The barracks over there are a waste too, except during wars.
Change Kankakee (core city) from Settler to barracks.
Atlanta must build the FP IMO, this city has great potential. I’ll let it finish the horse.
(3)
NY worker – worker
Atlanta horse – FP (29 turns)
LA horse – market
Oak Park horse – ‘duct
Baltimore rax – granary, for a worker factory.
DC temple set to market, it has more effect and a MP can deal with the happiness until then. We must use the goodies of the monarchy.
Bankrupt due in 4 turns, but we’ll get back our Persian payment.
Block growth in Atlanta but the FP is in 19 turns.
(4)
Philadelphia Horse – temple
Denver found on the hill (temple)
This situates a German archer in our lands, but I still have no Get out option.
(5) :sleep:
(IBT) Galley disappears in the ocean :sad:
(6) I block the german archers path on our frontier.
(7) Kankakee rax – horse, Houston temple – court
(IBT) Peace signed again with Persia (straight).
(8) NY worker – worker
Ask Bismark to leave. Still not an ultimatum. I block his archer, he can no longer proceed in our lands. I hope this is not against this game’s principles, even if I used only military units. Avoid wars is crucial now.
Our income can’t buy us any tech. Proceed self research.
(IBT) Damn, Bismark asks for 22g. You know what this means.
His archer kills one of our horses and another one captures a worker!
(9) The good in the bad is that WH allows us to lower lux down.
Our research has lowered the price of Feudalism down to 48gpt, wines (the only ones) and 47g, but at least Persia will be less inclined to join.
We need 2 scientists in this case. Switch some builds on military again.
(IBT) The Germans are sending Knights, kill a Horse and capture two workers.
(10) Kill an archer. We have units, but we can’t do much right now.
I’ve tried to go for some Infra, but I doubt we can finish it. Leave the production on FP and the market of DC IMO, the others must help us militarily.

Back to war again.

Roster:
Whomp - up
TimBentley - on deck
Pied Piper
tomasjj
Khan_Asparuh - just played

Unfortunately Khan the variant doesn't allow us to MA.
I will play tomorrow.

Unfortunately Khan the variant doesn't allow us to MA.
I will play tomorrow.
:confused: I haven't tried to MA... Persia won't attack us because we're paying her a lot of money... I fear the Vikes but whatever.
We really need to meet the other civs. That's our only chance. Don't stop the galley builds.

Pre-turn Decide to change the court to a harbor at SF since FP will be at Atlanta. Move a few swords to the front.
IBT Knight attacks Miami and redlines. Pike stands on our wheat and the initial onslaught is on and by Kankakee. DC Market-->MI Philly MI-->MI Tucson Galley--> Galley SF Harbor--> Galley
460 LA riots?? 3 horses redline and one goes 3/4 but knock out 3 archers (3-0), elite sword flawless vs bow (4-0), Sword loses but redlines knight (4-1), 2nd promotes(5-1), horse redlines but kills bow (6-1), sword 2/4 kills bow (7-1), horse promotes 3/5 killing bow(8-1). There's one pike left by Miami. Redline him but lose a horse (8-2), 2nd takes him out (9-2),

IBT Vikes galley. :eek: archer takes out our 2/4 sword (9-3) Kankakee horse-->horse, Berlin finishes Copernicus.
460 :scan: Ragnar says ok. Elite sword 5/5 vs 2/3 archer (10-3), elite sword 2/5 vs archer (11-3), Horse redlines but beats archer (12-3), horse 3/4 vs. bow (13-3), horse 2/4 vs bow (14-3). Leave the last 3/4 bow so I don't end in German territory.

IBT Bow lose to our spear 2/4 (15-3). Only 1 bow shows up. Frankfurt finishes Sistines.
470 Time to take it to Otto. Elite horse 4/5 take bow (16-3). Push a stack into Bonn area. Get wines from Ragnar for 14gpt.
IBT XMan asks to renew gems get it for 11gpt instead of 12gpt?? Lose elite sword to knight (16-4), beat elite knight with sword elite (17-4)

480 bomb Bonn 0 for 2. Horse redlines and retreats, 2nd horse loses (17-5), horse elite 1/5 beats pike(18-5), elite sword beats pike 3/5 (19-5), send an MI and beats redlined knight (20-5). Raze Bonn. Otto has a ton of gold and he offer 120g for peace. OK done. We need infrastucture and a bigger military.


Summary
The rest of the turns were builds. The Germans started Magellans and JS Bachs after 510. We put in two new cities one on Bonn's spot. We have another ready next east of NY. This will steal the gems from X-Man. Would this impact our rep if we take his gems we are paying for? I can't remember how this impacts rep.

Our economy is in bad shape. I have a ton of taxmen hired until the FP comes in next.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim02.JPG

Good job showing it to Germany. If we steal Persia's gems, we won't be breaking a deal.

Roster:
TimBentley - up and got it
Pied Piper - on deck
tomasjj
Khan_Asparuh
Whomp - just played

460 LA riots??

Sorry about that, I was more worried about Miami. Still, there were MPs there... :confused:

I don't think it was your fault Khan because I moved up the lux before that. Maybe it was the numbers on our turf at that point? No matter. We have peace for a bit. :)

550(0)-Interesting-we know Russia and the Celts
obviously, with no cash, no deals are possible
New York has one uncorrupted shield, give it more food
we don't need galleys if we know the other continent
That's interesting: Celts has trade route with everybody, Russia only has one with Germany
if we take 38 turns to learn invention, we'll never catch up

IBT-Atlanta FP->market
New Orleans temple->trebuchet

560(1)-found Las Vegas, start on temple

IBT-Los Angeles trebuchet->MDI

570(2)-I figured it unfair to ask them to leave last turn when they hadn't actually entered our territory, but I demand they leave this turn (they agree)
Looking at F3, I see Celts are in anarchy and have lost two workers to the French

IBT-Oak Park aqueduct->settler
Persia starts Bach's

580(3)-Interesting, now Celts don't have trade route
ask Viking galley to leave

IBT-Vikings, Celts, Russia start Bach's

590(4)-zzz

IBT-Philadelphia temple->MDI

600(5)-someone sold our contact to France
they have trade routes with everybody
raise lux to 30% and fire the taxmen (ouch, -8gpt, but 48gpt will free up in 3 turns)
ask Viking galley to leave

IBT-Kankakee MDI->MDI
Vikings start Magellan's
France starts Bach's
galley that was investigating offshore island sinks

610(6)-ask Viking galley to leave

IBT-LA MDI->MDI
Russia starts Magellan's

620(7)-zzz

IBT-Oak Park settler->MDI

630(8)-ask German worker to leave
buy France's TM for WM, 9g
buy Viking's TM for WM, 10g
WM trading doesn't seem to be helping
sell WM to Germany for 1g

IBT-Baltimore temple->market

640(9)-more map sales

IBT-Philadelphia MDI->MDI
Miami market->MDI
New Orleans trebuchet->trebuchet

650(10)-zzz

Notes: We may have to sell our resources to catch up
Celts seem not to know navigation; France and Celts seem not to know democracy (I suspect Russia will soon become a democracy)

Roster:
Pied Piper - up
tomasjj - on deck
Khan_Asparuh
Whomp
TimBentley - just played

Piper? you there?

Yep I'm here and will report ASAP, had a road trip weekend.


TUrn 181
Viking ship returns just inside our waters by SF. No raids today he says.
Found Albuquerque

Turn 182
Viking ship does not move, same deal.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02LasVegas.jpg

Turn 183
Lost our supply of wines and gems, thought we had our own. Viking wants 14gpt?
Trade him WM/1g/6gpt for his worker.
Persia requests audience, get Mono for WM/2g/38gpt
Pesia then wants 11gpt, trade Worker(scan)/69g/29gpt for Chiv
Finish HE
Las Vegas flips (2.8%), maybe it shall flip back one day. Lost a pike and elite warrior.
Hire a few taxmen to avoid paying even more lux

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02Persia.JPG

Turn 184
Workers trapped by the flip trigger Persian audience, not sure what response is required or allowed.
I could apologize, which technically is not disallowed but hardly seems defiant. RoP is not allowed.
I could declare war but that would ruin reputation. I really want to just say goodbye but I thought that was equivalent to declaring.
Say goodbye and nothing happens, could it be the 67gpt that we pay him?

TUrn 185
Decide to antagonize Persia with a Pikeman in the mountains. Bananas no longer jungle so trebs can attack Sidon.

Turn 186
Antagonize deeper into Persia

Turn 187
Upgrade a couple cats

Turn 188
Aggression campaign provokes only a diplomatic response, we withdraw troops.
First knights off the assembly line.

Turn 190
Miami influence expands but does not gain new territory
Send settler north of Houston.
Germany now has cav running around.

Game File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim02AD750.SAV)

Yep I'm here and will report ASAP, had a road trip weekend.
Ah.... roadtrips rule!! :D

That flip certainly is annoying.

Roster:
tomasjj - up
Khan_Asparuh - on deck
Whomp
TimBentley
Pied Piper - just played

I got it....

Preturn 750ad:
Hmm....Lagging in tech. Army mostly obsolete. No gold.
Not very good.
Trade some maps.
Germans show us a couple of Cavs....depressing.

1 - 760ad:
Settler ready. Moving into hills west of Oslo, there is not much cultural pressure from the vikings.

2 - 770ad:
San Fran riots... mapstat said it was fine. Odd.
Found Harpers Ferry.
Buy gems from Xerx. 13gpt and 12g.
IT:Germans complete Magellans.French finish Smiths.
3 - 780ad:
Ahh. I missed a german worker in our territory. He got caught when I founded Harpers.
Will tell him to leave...he says yes, but it wasnt an ultimatum.
Xerx is polite! Hurrrah. We need friends.

4 - 790ad:
Tell Germ worker to leave again. Ok, he says. No ultimatum still.

5 - 800ad:
Same as last turn. No ultimatum. Next turn he is safe at home in the vaterland.
Do upgrades as the money comes in... but its a slow case.
Think we will have to go for the ICS here.
Also, its only a question of time before Germany attacks us. With cavs...

6 - 810ad:
Oakland founded north of San Fran.

7 - 820ad:
Nothing.

8 - 830ad:
Nothing.

9 - 840ad:
Our influence expands as we have completed some temples and libs the last turns.
Also, the flip risks are moving slowly downwards. Nice.
I check if we can build some more markets to boost the economy and research, but we need courts to really make it count.
We are in monarchy and corruption is a pain far away from the captial.

10 - 850ad:
Vikings and Germans are in the industrial age...Oops.
A couple of cities have clowns as they await happiness builds there. Didnt want to up lux just for those two.
A quiet turnset. I dont think we can handle wars now. That would make us crumble.
Invention still far away. 23 turns.
NY could be switched to market, but a lib might push the borders towards Las Vegas and the gems. I dont know.

jj

Tha game file...

This has proven a very difficult variant @ DG.
I almost wanted to suggest turning off research and grabbing the GLib...but we can't keep any captured cities. :lol:

The technological situation was reminding me of Bede02, but then I looked back and saw they weren't as advanced as us at this point. Of course their choice of governments didn't help any.

Roster:
Khan_Asparuh - up
Whomp - on deck
TimBentley
Pied Piper
tomasjj - just played

I see it, got it, will play tomorrow. It's tough, especially for the German slaughter.

Tim 02 850AD.
(0)
We’re back. The entire world knows how to trade maps.
I’ll veto the settler in DC; switch it to temple to take care of unhappiness. ICS is not the way I see it. The germans must have 7 times more culture than us. Persia and Scandinavia only 3…
(IBT) Denver lib – aqua
(1)
Sell Houston’s rax, they are not needed.
All our workers are stacked on unroaded tiles. We’re wasting many worker moves on the top of all :sad:
I sell horses and 15gpt to the Celts for Theology.
(IBT) Russia is defending her towns with rifles… SF Cathedral – Lib.
(2)
We’ve got a lot of gpt back from Persia.
I buy education from Germany for wines, 31gpt and 23g. Now if he declares at least we’ll have won something. And 10% lux was the same as the value of the wines.
The techs prices are of about 50gpt so I can’t make it to buy another.
I change many builds on Courts.
(IBT) DC temple – pike
Oak Park knight – market
(3)
WM + 2 g for TM from Persia.
WM for TM from Ragnar
WM for TM+1g from Brennus
WM+8g for French TM.
(IBT) Russia demands TM and 19g. No way -> WAR. (and WH)
(4)
Atlanta Lib – University
LA temple – lib
Albu temple – market
The war is worth 20% lux in WH, with two specialists and an entertainer.
I’ll collect some money for upgrades, rushing and steals (correct me if we can’t steal, but I prefer stealing more than fuelling AI advance with gpt.) We’re at 69gpt.
(IBT) Germans come with an MPP offer. I really would like this but I can’t take it… And, Bismark, I forgot, you’ll die soon enough. Did you know this?
(5) DC pike – pike
Tucson court – market
Persian TM for WM
Buy German TM for WM and 3gpt.
Scandinavian TM+1 g for WM
French and Celtic TM for WM.
(6)
Philadelphia temple? – pike
Miami knight – pike. Palace extension, whoops I’ve messed the styles I hope you like mixed architecture.
(7)
Troops moving for MP.
(IBT) That’s bad. Russia and Germany sign MPP. We must watch out.
(8)
Phoenix court – market
I don’t know why (I haven’t attacked, believe me) but the MPP up there is auto triggered and Germany declares.
Retreat workers near the borders. Some are 2 tiles away from they can get us cavs to kill.
Retire the armies stationed in DC to attract an attack in this direction.
Lose a knight attacking a cav. No scratch…
Income 98 gpt.
(IBT) Frigate kills our Galley near Russia. Scandinavia and Germany sign embargo.
Germans capture Richmond. Miami defense holds 2 knights, Frankfurt builds Newton.
(9)
Kill 2 german Knights, 4 cavs (lost two knights against cavs in the open without scratching them :mad: ), a horse kills a rifle for my biggest surprise.
I realize that horses sold must have been an error. France can sell us some for 41gpt and this will be the same value that the Celts gave.
No interest shown for empty Washington. Even if it was an exploit, not worth replaying.
(IBT) Celts come asking TM and 22g. Give me back my horses you Morron. They back off.
German RNG is crushing us. We lose Albuquerque and Phoenix.
(10)
The situation is serious. With the variant and the ~20 cavs the Germans sent to us I see no way to pull this one out.
I’m leaving units unmoved as this will be essential for the next player. And sorry if I couldn’t make something more. This is really tough variant.
If only I could know why the Germans declared :confused:. Russia is away and no confrontation between us except the sea battle, but the russians were attacking.

I got it. I will hit this tomorrow since I'm up in two that won't need as much attention. Thoughts are welcome before I launch.

Ok, Khan relax a bit eh...
Workers are on unroaded tiles to make roads...

Germans attack because we are weak and they are strong, thats the way it goes. We dont have enough stuff to trade with them to improve relations. But , I agree that the gpt deal we had with them should at least have made Bismarck relax for a few turns more.

Some of the temple builds are set up to avoid flips... simple as that. When I got the game that was an issue.

I agree that ICS is not the best way, but I really dont see any other way with us lagging in tech and the others so strong. What is the alternative then? You say its not the way to go without mapping out any alternative. :confused:

Rax in Houston arent that bad. It can be nice to have rax in border towns when war comes a rollin' But is money is short I can understand that. It just cost a lot more to get them rax, up again.

And did you say MPP triggered the war?? :confused:

jj

And did you say MPP triggered the war?? :confused:

jj
That's the message I got. Thats why I'm really :confused: too. On the very next turn after the MPP was signed. And with me having my whole army away from Russia, except the galley in neutral waters that got killed later.

Strange.
If they had signed a military alliance, I would've understood.

I've allready seen it happen between two AIs, but never with me.

:lol:....I just played my 3rd SG's so I wasn't thinking particularly straight. I open the save and at first I was like hmmm....I thought we were at war. So I played the save I got.

Then I get back here I read we're were getting slaughtered by the Germans. :lol:
In mine we are not. What should we do?

We should kick the Khan out because Bismark appears to hate him. :D

:lol: Otto doesn't like any of us Khan. :)
Did you make two saves? One with war and another without?

I will post the save in case we decide to pick up from there.

I believe Khan posted the save from the beginning of his turns rather than at the end. His ending save would have been from 950.

Riiiight....I kind of prefer my ending situation to his. :lol:

I will go ahead and play his 950 save when he posts it.

Sorry, I've misunderstood the problem.
I'll post the save tonight, the 950 AD one.

No probs Khan. I wasn't paying attention. :crazyeye:

On my save I established an embassy with Russia and on the IBT they asked for a 9g tribute and declared. :lol: Either way we could've had war with the Germans.

I look forward to the ravaging the german cavalry. Hopefully I can get a leader from one of their wounded.

Sounds like a game plan, Whomp.
Get that leader!

We are in war with Russia. Here's the save

Well I got a leader. :lol:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Lucky.JPG

I think this one is over gentlemen. If someone wants to do it from the 950 save they can try.

Miami, Kankakee were taken on the IBT and about 15 units.
In 960 I used all the elites on redlined cavs and got one on the 2nd try with a horse. :lol:

On the IBT SF was
leveled and lost a bunch more units.
I didn't go any further from here. We don't have enough units to protect any of our cities and their cavs are just too overpowering.

The 970 Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88115)

And LKendter thinks he has too many losses in his series. I think fighting off our neighbors early ruined our economy so we didn't have much of a chance.

I know we can do it but man alive it is tough.
Having just one lux in this time was a crusher too.
Not too much cash and no razes.

To be able to pull this one of we need a good starting location.

By that I mean a continent where we dont have enemies on many sides. Lets say a continent where we have one, max two other civs bordering on us. Also a food rich start would rock, but that goes without saying.

Also lux is crucial. Many of the same lux will do as we then can trade to keep neighbours happy and gold coming in.

Also I think we should consider the great library. Normally I dont do that, but in this one we might have to.

Anyone care to roll a few starts? If not I can get some up tomorrow.
jj

Well this is my first SG loss (but first SG technicaly over too...)
Can I propose to change the settings to 'pelago? I've tried this, it's quite easier because there are less neigbors, even if I hadn't any ressources in the beginning. Got slaughtered on pangaea and continents. The variant is tough.

A few things have been learned from the first attempt. Razed cities are bad. If a city is likely to be razed, we should abandon it or give it away. We should prepare for a possible AW, including three-tile spacing. With the potential of wars, we should make sure we keep our reputation secure. I would advise against water trading prior to the discovery of astronomy. I also decided to go for standard to reduce the number of potential enemies. I would add keeping cash to a minimum and grabbing luxs. Maybe we could try continents with a food friendly climate. Archs would give us a pretty big advantage I'd think.

Three's the charm!! :)

Also I think we should consider the great library. Normally I dont do that, but in this one we might have to.I was thinking the same thing. Of course that would mean more cash that could be demanded.

When I was initially thinking of the variant, I chose continents because there would be a few neighbors. Archipelago would reduce the number of neighbors to zero or one, and would remove much of the difficulty of defiance. Maybe the size could be switched to small?

I'll be going home for the summer soon. I know I won't be on the internet for about a week, and I'm not sure what the internet situation will be afterwards. So I won't start a new thread; somebody else should feel free to.

I am also entering a transition period, may not have access for a while in the near future. Will do my best to stay connected.

I feel archi might be too easy.
I would also like to keep the size standard.
As for the great lib, we can discuss that later.
I will roll three starts now...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03-start1.JPG

Start 1 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim03-start1-4000_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03start2.JPG

start 2 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tim03-start2-_4000_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03-start3.JPG

start 3 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03-start34000_BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03-start4.JPG

start 4 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/tim03-start4_4000_BC.SAV)

I have scouted them a little, just a few turns. I think number 4 would be a good call based on the issues of geographical localtion, food, lux and proximity/number of other civs.

jj

hmm.... i thought the pics would show.... any idea why not?

Did you wrap it with

Posted by JJ...

cheers mate.
I will edit number two pic as its the same as start 1.
Still doesnt work even I wrapped the links with img....
What did i do wrong?

Take out the [url]'s and put in just [img]

Now we're talkin'
Ok, team. Take a look and see how you feel about these. If you arent happy with neither of them, we can roll some more.
jj

Doesn't seem like a lot to work with on any of these JJ.
#1 has the cow but no river and tundra :confused:
#2 Has potential being on the coast, river, incense but no bonus food.
#3 No major bonus. Lots of chops and needs a move of the coast.
#4 Seems like a natural disaster waiting to happen with flood plains and a volcano. :lol:

BTW I don't think Tim and PP are playing due to being in transition. We may want to post in the new game thread.

We can post in the new game thread, sure.

Trust me on no 4. Its good, not overly fantastic, but solid.
We can easily afford to spend a couple of turns scouting about before settling down.
Should we let the others come up with input on the starts, or just decide first?

Revenge of the Revenge of the Defiant Diplomats!

Revenge of the Revenge of the Defiant Diplomats!
So true. You in for 3rd time is the charm Chunky?

Hmmm...why not. Sure.