While scrounging around the 'Poly site this evening, I came across thier AU mod and the list of all the items they change for these games. What particularly struck me were the changes for the Armies and Army Small Wonders. I really want to see if they add anything to the game and allow the AI to actually build and field Armies.

The following rule changes were made (doesn't completely follow the 'Poly mod, but gets most of it):

Army changes:
1. reduced transport capacity from 3 to 1
2. Added HP bonus = 7
3. Reduced shield cost to 1

Pentagon
1. Unchecked “Build Larger Armies” Flag
2. Checked “Increase Army Value” Flag

Military Academy
1. Removed “Victorious Army” Flag
2. Removed “Build Armies without Leader” Flag
3. Added the ability to spawn an Army every 25 turns
4. Reduced cost to 300 shields.

Bombers
1. Removed Lethal Land Bombard Ability

This is somewhat of a test game to see how this works. If it allows the AI to field armies, then I believe this will be a little more interesting than your average DG/Diety game :)

I would also like to add a restriction for the humans only that the Mil Academy cannot be built unless 1 army has been spawned via MGL and victorious in battle.

The general settings for the game are as follows:

C3C 1.22f
Civ: Japan
Level: Diety
Map: Standard, 60% Ocean, Continents, Temperate, Normal, 4 billion yrs old
Barbs: Off
SGL: Off
Random Opponents
AI Aggression: Normal
Culturally Linked Starts: Off

Lkendter's rules:

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape,
or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory
has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must
wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every
turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another
ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn)
of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap
building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new
location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a
large amount of troops to another landmass.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.

2) Worker blockades are prohibited. This prevents things such as fortifying
workers along the coast to stop invasions, blocking troops from going
through your territory with workers, etc. Workers activity doing something
along the coast is fine. The workers must be actively doing something.

3) You may not declare war on a civ if you are currently shipping cash
and / or goods to the civ.

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS
Mailman
<open>
grahamiam

3. Reduced shield cost to 1

What does this mean? Not a sign-up.

What does this mean? Not a sign-up.
so we can't disband the spawned army for a quick 100 shields.

I was hesitant to bite on this one at first due to other games, but with SGOTM 6 complete and Goz6 surely near finish, I'll bite. Sign me up.

great! welcome aboard. this should be harder than you average game as we've removed the uber-army for the player but gave the AI a unit that's better than what they normally produce.

I am still waivering between diety and DG (despite the thread title), so if more people want to try but at DG, that's fine too.

I like the look of the rule changes! Can I sign up please?

welcome tone :)

either of you guys have a civ preference?

I can't think of any real preference. I'm open for anyone, I suppose.

Not really. Surprise us! :)

I'd like to give this a go. Maybe try Japan to get an early read on where the horses are and at least early on provides a monopoly tech.

welcome M60 :)

1 vote for Japan. I think that would be an interesting choice as the last game KB and I were in with them we got squashed :)

Indeed, I'll drink to that. Let the Samurai rise again :hammer:

Ok, we have 4. I will advertise for more but we can probably start.

Here is our location:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-4000BC.jpg

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger -> UP
Tone -> on deck
M60A3TTS
Mailman
<open>
grahamiam

1st player can do 20 or 25 turns, next player 10 or 15, then we settle into 10 turns per player. However, if you want to play more than 10 to set up the next player or finish something that you started, by all means, go ahead :thumbsup: If, later in the game, turns start to take too long, please also feel free to play only 5T.

Good luck KB!

Nice start. I've got it.

Looks a pleasant starting position. Was it one of many rolls or just the first one you hit? Difficulty level Diety or DG?

I will be happy to join in (there is some time until SGOTM7 will start...).

ok mailman, welcome :)

this is diety, and it took about 5 rolls (3 were tundra type starts, 1 was a bunch of mountains which was weird given the 4bilyr setting)

Preturn- We have a good start position. Looks like we might end up with a bit of coast without the capitol being coastal. I'm not a fan of that. Decide to send the worker North onto the BG and we find the pleasant sight of a cow on the plains :dance: With that little fact, I decide to move us onto the hill NW to get both cow and game without expansion and to have the capitol a bit more central.

T1 3950

Kyoto is formed, starts a warrior. Almost started a temple out of habit from LK92 :lol:

Decide to start us on minimum towards Alphabet, assuming that we will be able to trade for pottery with nearby friends.

3750

First warrior rolls off the line.

3550

Second warrior is out.

3350

Scouting warrior finds wines West of Kyoto.

3100

We have Silks in the Tundra to the SW.

2950

We finally have a contact. It's everyones favorite neighbors, the Agricultural A-holes with cheap spears, the Sumerians. There is a two tile choke at which we could block them off from our nice peninsula, but I don't know if we can get another warrior there in time, so its really not feasible. They do have pottery though, so we can make a trade for it.

2800

Sumeria is building the Pyramids. Thats all they need. I decide to trade the Wheel to Sumeria. It can just barely get pottery on its own, they must be near completing it. We start a granary.



Summary

I played 25 to 2750. We're on the road to a settler factory right now. I squeezed out a settler beforehand though, I left it unmoved so we can shoose where to plop it down.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-2750.JPG

Looks good. Let's chop the game and water it to help the granery along.

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger
Tone -> UP
M60A3TTS -> on deck
Mailman
<open>
grahamiam

Ok-got it! Nice start KB. I'll play later today but in the meantime any team views on the settler? 1W seems OK to me, unless you want to leave it be and share the cows; we might even be lucky and find sugar under the fog. (I could always send it on a voyage to help block the chokepoint :D )

I'll send the worker to the game straight after the road is completed in three turns.

I was thinking of one west myself. Seems the most feasible.

NW and W are fine with me. I wouldn't run a settler up to the choke till we're prepared to defend the town. Let's get the core setup so we're in better position.

I will be out of town tonight and Saturday. I will not be able to play any civ till Sunday night.

Sorry. Never got round to it yesterday but I'm playing it now!

turn 0 (2750)
move settler W.

turn 1 (2710)
(Sum have BW, Mas and WC)
Build Osaka (warr).

turn 4 (2590)
Sum now has Alpha.

turn 6 (2510)
and they now have Myst and are building the Oracle.

turn 8 (2430)
Say hello to an Indian warrior. They have all the techs that Sum have except Myst.

turn 9 (2390)
Kyoto: gran>warr

turn 10 (2350)
Lux up to 10%

turn 11 (2310)
Kyoto: warr>settler; Osaka: warr>worker. Lux back down to 0%. I try to execute the block by moving the Kyoto warrior towards the narrow land. Scientist in Osaka-research at 0%. Reg warr from capital heads for Osaka and keep lux at 10%.

turn 12 (2270)
Indians have Myst and are building the Colossus

turn 13 (2230)
Up lux and get Osaka working again. Research back at 10%

turn 15 (2150)
Kyoto: settler>warr. lux down to 10%.


I've left you the settler and worker move to do. Feel free to change either of the builds. I was thinking that a forest chop could help the next settler out although a factory will be working after the warrior build so maybe we could send the settler to the wines and the worker can road towards them.

BTW please feel free to let me know of any bad moves. I'm still trying to improve my skills at this level so that I can get to the point where a win is more of a certainty. :)

M60A3TTS -> up next
Mailman -> on deck
<open>
grahamiam
Kaiser Berger
Tone ->just played

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86291&stc=1

M60, you out there?

Got it. Will play Monday.

Hi guys, got a link to this thread/game from Grahamiam. It could certainly be interesting to see if the armies in C3C could be tweaked a bit. They are terribly biased in favour of the human player ATM. If you want me on the team I am game for this.

BTW, what VC are we pursuing? With the idea of a deeper look into the workings of the armies I would understand conquest to be the choice but you might have other plans?

welcome wotan :) i'm guessing military type victory, with a space fallback. no 100k or 20k goal.

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS -> UP
Mailman -> on deck
Wotan
grahamiam

My early take is we have the makings of a productive core, although a few more river tiles would have been nice. Not a lot of hills, so we may be dealing with an iron deficiency at some point. The wine and silks will keep our local citizens in a good mood.

I'll probably send the settler due north of Kyoto and build on the river/coast so we have the opportunity to get a boat in the water at some point. The wine should be safe enough for the time being. If a Sumerian settler starts down our way, I can do some blocking around Osaka. Doubt there will be a galley enroute before our next settler can be in place.

Any thought on buying alpha if the price is right, since the two others already know it?

i'm fine with buying it. next tech should be @ max research, though, so, hopefully, we can buy it for all our cash and min gpt.

I was hoping to meet another civ before considering a trade. You guys are more experienced though so I'll go with what you decide. :)

I was hoping to meet another civ before considering a trade. You guys are more experienced though so I'll go with what you decide. :)

It's likely the next civ we meet will already have contacted the other two and traded any existing advances around. So there may not be much gained by waiting to learn an advance everyone already has. The sooner we have a boat in the water, the sooner we can get a handle on who's where.

Not sure about going max tech after alpha. Do we risk spending all our cash and find at the end we're discovering what everyone else already knows? May be better to go min writing then philo gambit. Even if we don't pick up the free advance, philo is decent trade material.

It's likely the next civ we meet will already have contacted the other two and traded any existing advances around. So there may not be much gained by waiting to learn an advance everyone already has. It makes it cheaper but I guess we cannot afford to fall too far behind.

Not sure about going max tech after alpha. Do we risk spending all our cash and find at the end we're discovering what everyone else already knows? May be better to go min writing then philo gambit. Even if we don't pick up the free advance, philo is decent trade material.If we did go max tech what would we go for? I must admit I usually buy at this stage.

if we go min writing, we will never pull off the philo gambit. the AI is likely to go after IW while we go for writing and then MM while we go for Philosophy. if we save money, it's more likely to be demanded away (esp at diety) than accumulate at a level that will allow us to buy writing. If someone else gets to writing 1st and we do it at max, the number of turns it takes to complete will at least come down so we can, in effect, get it cheaper than buying it outright at monopoly prices.

My 15 turns at 1625BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-1625_BC.SAV)

Abbreviated log to tell what's worth telling.

2030BC- Tokyo founded. Start rax as placeholder for curragh.

1990BC- Dutch finish Colossus.

1950BC- Alphabet in 6. Get Alphabet from India for 146 gold. Change Tokyo rax to curragh. Writing in 46 @ 70%. A couple people working on the Oracle.

1725BC- Tokyo curragh> rax. The Lucky Dragon sets sail in the direction of Sumeria.

1675BC- Connected up the horse by road.

1625BC- 19 gold. Writing in 21 @ -1 gpt. And done.

Explored around Sumeria and India by land. Settler can drop a town next to wines next turn, and another settler is ready to be moved in Kyoto now. Don’t know if he should head for the silks which is a 9-turn trip or keep building out the core.

Next up can change any builds as you see fit.

Looks good as always, M60 :)

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS
Mailman -> UP
Wotan -> on deck
grahamiam

I got it, I will probably play only tomorrow.
Do someone want to post a dot-map setteling points or should I just settle to my best judgement?

pre turn:
we are very low on workers. set capital to produce one before the next settler.
move the settler in the capital east.

IBT - The pyramids were built by the Sumerian in Ur (good, relatively close to us).
Greeks finish the oracle.

1. 1600BC
found two new cities.
lux to 10%

IBT Portuguese finish the lighthouse.

2. 1575BC
capital produce worker. lux to 0%

3. 1550BC
lux to 20%

4. 1525BC
lux to 30%
produced another worker. return to capital to settler duty.

IBT - Sumer want all ur gold (15g) I gladly give them.

5. 1500BC
since it was ALL our gold and we were in -1 gpt we lost our barracks in Kyoto.

6. 1475BC
we got ourselves barracks in Tokyo.

7. 1450BC
noticed that there are ruins betwen Sumer and India. they probably (was) at war.

IBT
Dutch complete SoZ.

8. 1425BC
nothing nuch

IBT Sumer is staing the wall - they are up to constructions by now.

9. 1400BC
10. 1375BC
nothing nuch

Summery:
lost barracks due to demands from Sumerians.
founded 2 new cities, one more settler is on route to the silks.
tech speed is flying.
next player can change all.

Got it. Am working at home this morning preparing for a meeting tomorrow so I just might be able squeeze this baby in between RL chores.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams100bc.JPG

Turn log

0 – 1375BC Pre-flight
First look at the game. Everything looks set to press return.

IBT: Amsterdam builds MofM.

1 – 1350BC
Kagoshima builds Barracks, Chariot started. Satsuma builds Worker, Worker started. We need more Workers.

IBT: Sumerians building the Great Wall.

2 – 1325BC
Kyoto builds Settler, Settler started.

IBT: Wine connected. Volcano E of Kagoshima erupts.

3 – 1300BC
Lux to 0%

4 – 1275BC
Nada

IBT: Paris finish building TofA.

5 – 1250BC
Nara founded, Curragh started. Pre build for anything we want it to end up as. Lux to 10%.

IBT: Delhi finish building the Great Wall. I would guess that saves India in their war vs. Sumeria.

6 – 1225BC
Kyoto builds Settler, Settler started.

7 – 1200BC
Writing finished, Starting philosophy at 100%. I understand this was the team position. 11 turns ATM. Trading? Well, since we are going directly for Philosophy there is little reason to postpone this especially since we can get a pile of gold plus techs. Trade Writing to Sumeria for BW, Masonry, Mysticism and 60 gold. Trade Writing to India for IW and 18 gold. India and Sumeria both lack connected Iron and I can not see any on the revealed portion of the map. They are both up Maths, Poly and WC.

8 – 1175BC
Nagoya founded, Worker started.

9 – 1150BC
Osaka builds Granary, Barracks started. Edo builds Granary, Temple started.

10 – 1125BC
Kyoto builds settler, Settler started. Izumo founded, Worker started.

11 – 1100BC
Tokyo builds Chariot, Curragh started. Kagoshima builds Chariot, Worker started.
IBT: Sumerians building HG!

12 – 1075BC
Nada.

13 – 1050BC
Nada.

14 – 1025BC
Kyoto builds Settler, Settler started.

15 – 1000BC
Edo builds Temple, Barracks started. Sumeria just got Map Making.

After action report:
One Settler in position (east), one in transit (west). Philosophy in 2 turns. Silk connected in 2 turns.
Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-1000_BC.SAV)

looks good, got it.

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger -> on deck
Tone
M60A3TTS
Mailman
Wotan
grahamiam -> UP

If we are first to Philo by some fantastic stroke of luck, what would we take as the freebie? We know the AI has construction and MM. If we take Lit, that would be a tradable asset. At least one Sumerian and Indian city would then be busy building the GLib and not settlers. Otherwise CoL to get to Republic sooner perhaps.

Sometimes Currency is a very nice, tradable asset as well, moreso than Lit. I'll see what's available when it comes up :)

Preflight check: Looks good. We are boxed in by geography only and a little spread out for towns but ok. Switch Edo from Barracks to worker so we can get those BG’s mined while building the Rax. We definitely lack workers so I’ll try to get that up.

IBT: Osaka barracks -> spear; Tokyo dingy -> worker (MM for growth); Kagoshima worker -> Chariot

T1: 975BC Found Nagasaki -> worker

IBT: Philo, open diplo screen, Trade with India: Math and WC for Philo & 1g; Sumer has Construction already and will only offer 79g for Philo so I wait.
We do not get a free tech.

T2: 950BC Research Lit @ 70%, +1gpt

IBT: Kyoto settler -> warrior (this needs to be a bigger town to help research); Edo worker -> Chariot; Nagoya worker -> worker

T3: 925BC

T4: 900BC

IBT: Kyoto warrior -> settler; Nara Curragh -> worker; Izumo worker -> worker; Sumerians complete HG; Yellow Galley comes out of the fog.

T5: 875BC Meet Egypt, they are up CoL, MM, HBR, Poly, and Construction
A dingy suicides off Izumo towards coastal waters.
Cannot buy HBR or Construction or CoL or MM. Takes nearly our entire economy to buy Poly

IBT: Tokyo worker -> granary; Satsuma barracks -> worker; Suicide dingy sinks.

T6: 850BC Found Shimonoseki up by the choke. An Egyptian warrior/settler pair is nearby.

IBT: Osaka spear -> Temple; Edo chariot -> Archer

T7: 825BC

T8: 800BC Found Matsuyama -> temple (holder for harbor?); Egypt is in the MA

IBT: Kyoto settler -> settler

T9: 775BC Switch Edo to barracks

T10: 750BC Settler is heading West to the tundra choke. Egypt has a town to compete with Shimonoseki for the cow.

I’m irrigating grass towards Izumo so we can water the plains out there. We can also fit another town or 2 between Osake, Shimonoseki, and Matsuyama.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-750BC.jpg

Roster: 24hrs got it, 72hrs play it
Kaiser Berger -> UP
Tone -> on deck
M60A3TTS
Mailman
Wotan
grahamiam

Ok, I've got it.

Just to let you all knowm this weekend has been hectic and I won't be able to get to this until probably Monday. If one of you can hop in before me and take it, feel free.

I can't play until Monday evening either!

Well, no problem then. I can re-add this to my queue then. Re-got it.

Preturn- We look alright.

T1 730

Our chariot in SE finds a Dutch settler pair under the fog. They are fully medieval.

T4 670

Great, Sumeria is dominating India, we're going to be stuck on this continent all alone with the 500lb gorilla :lol:

T6 630

Sapporo founded. Curragh makes run across the straight.

T7 610

The dinghy survived, we'll have new friends soon.

IT- We get lit. Lit goes to Sumeria with 80g for currency. Lit goes to Egypt for Horseback Riding. Lit goes to Dutch for 170g. Lit, HBR and Currency goes to India for Code of Laws, Polytheism and Map Making.

T8 590

Start research on Republic, due in 30 turns. We meet Greece. They are ahead of us, but knowing them drops the research time on Republic by 4 turns.

T9 570

Hakodate founded.

T10 550

I decide to hire a scientist in Osaka instead of raising the lux for just one city.


Summary

We have expanded further, and gained a good amount of tech from Literature. We need to grab some more land, and determine how we want to deal with Sumeria. They are a real beast.

We need to grab some more land, and determine how we want to deal with Sumeria. They are a real beast.

Have we spotted any source of iron on the continent?

There is one firmly entrenched in Sumerian territory, but I have noticed none neary us unfortunately.

OK, got it and will play tomorrow but a request for some guidance first.

Edu has reached size 6 and will not grow until we can build an aquaduct. Should I switch the build to a settler (and then resume horses) so that the food is not wasted? 9 shields/turn is not a nice number either!

Settlers should go where? Continue with the ice or try and go for the green area around the volcano first?

I would like to move the fortified warrior on the southern chokepoint S to see if there is any iron down there. Any reason why not?

Have we got a plan for if we have no iron and will this affect our current military builds? No civ has any spare and Sumeria appears to have the only source on our continent. :(

If Edo cannot be MM'd to 10 spt, then I'd say go ahead.

Settler should grab the best terrain available. Green over ice any day, just don't plant right next to the volcano.

Definitely move the warrior to finish clearing the fog from that area. Maybe we get lucky.

Not sure what the plan is without iron. Play nice with Sumeria for the time being I suppose.

turn 0 (550)
Everything looks fine but some town could do with more workers. Just switch Edo to settler and move fortified warr SW to check out the hills.

IBT
Kyoto: Settler>Settler; Edo: settler>horseman; Nagasaki: worker>temple. Dutch are building Leo's!

turn 1 (530)
Settlers southwards.

1>2
Tokyo: gran>settler

2>3
Osaka: horse>horse; Kagoshima:horse>horse; Nagoya:worker>temple

turn 3 (490)
curragh spots unclaimed iron around greek/Egyptian border but I don't fancy our chances against a culture flip! No iron in our extreme south.

4>5
Kyoto:settler>settler; Edo: horse>horse; Nara: worker>harbour; Izumo worker>temple.

5>6
Sapporo: worker>worker.

7>8
Osaka: horse>horse.

8>9
Dutch land in the ice so there's something there (oil?). Decide to claim it this turn!
Kyoto: settler>settler; Edo: horse>settler; Kagoshima: horse>horse.

turn 9 (370)
Build Ise (harbour) and Toyama (temple) in the south and look to block Dutch settler/spear from the grass beyond the ice.

9>10
Satsuma:temple>horse.

turn 10
Tokyo will riot next turn unless action is taken so switch cit to tax and switch build to temple.

As you can see, not a lot happened! I wonder if it will be worth building some markets for commerce or should we continue to build military? We have settlers heading south still but maybe the next ones could utalise some of the tiles we are currently not using closer to our capital. Dutch settler has started moving north so it may try and seize a gap eventually.


M60A3TTS -> UP
Mailman -> on deck
Wotan
grahamiam
Kaiser Berger
Tone (just played)

turn 3 (490)
curragh spots unclaimed iron around greek/Egyptian border but I don't fancy our chances against a culture flip! No iron in our extreme south.

ok, we need to seriously plan what we are going to do without iron. to me, we have some choices:
1. buildup horses and try to rush Sumeria with horse/cat/spear stacks
2. send a settler + spear on a galley and try to get a spot
3. beeline for gunpowder and see if we have salt. if so, then beeline for mil tradition. if not, treb/spear/LB stacks + horses to march on sumeria.
4. play nice and try to buy what we need.

once we decide, then we can decide what to build in our towns. there are probably other choices that this group can think about. let's toss them around as we need to plan to get out of this box :)

I get the feeling that option 4 may be off the table. Sumeria are massive and don't like us that much. The relations may improve when we become a Republic but sooner or later I think that they will flex their muscles in our direction!

Option 1 interests me if we can attack them whilst they are still at war with India. They've been at war for a while now so they *might* not have quite so many troops as would be otherwise expected and they will probably have most of them around India so we could be hitting them in their soft underbelly. This would be particularly useful if we could keep India plugging away at them. (& Republic may drag them back in if a PT was signed after we attack). On the other hand they may not be far from Gunpowder and horses vs muskets is not fun!

I agree with Tone. Option 1 seems to be the best choice.

:hammer: well, even if we can't get to the iron and only raze a few cities, it would set them back some. AI plays them well so I'm always happy when they're in the game :D

M60 has an excellent sense of strategy, so I'm keenly interested in his thoughts as well. also, maybe Tone can get a snapshot of the iron and pathway to it posted so we can deliberate some more? many thanks :)

I shall try and post screen shots of the Sumerian and the unclaimed iron but I'm not too hot at posting attachments (as perhaps KB can verify from our SGOTM experiences in the past :))

Sumerian iron is deep in their territory. We would not be able to reach it without several wars IMO.

The unclaimed iron by Greece/Egypt is three/four units from three different towns and would be under extreme cultural pressure. Since I spotted the iron you can see that it now falls under the influence of an Egyptian town so if we want it we need to get a move on and be prepared to rush some culture there. If the Greek borders expand anymore we will be unable to claim this without declaring war!

Edit: ...and it would be of no use until we get Astronomy!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86990&stc=1

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=86991&stc=1

Since the Sumerian iron is so close to the coast, what about an amphibious assault as opposed to an overland excursion?

flips risk would be severe. could we hold onto it long enough to build samurai? doubtful. also, the indians are being completely swallowed so we have to do something quick, otherwise we'll face everything. very tough situation, and Kish will be a tough nut to crack.

however, it does looks like archers and EW's are the main units. if we get some leader luck, we could cut the Sumerian empire in half, and then just swallow the pieces. Maybe we need to ally the Egyptians as well so they can make some half-assed landings to divert thier attention.

I got it. Playing tomorrow.

The Indians did not seem to lose much ground during my turns so maybe the flow is slowing. I did see mostly archers but then the MDIs started to roll. We could always place our warrior on the road connecting the two to slow the war down if we thought that this was beneficial. Tricky call IMO as we don't really want the war to stop (do we?) but India could help give us a leg up through the MA as they are not as advanced as the others.

Looked over the save and we are challenged in trying to help India now. We have 6 horsemen but our core is not being developed, and we still have Kyoto producing settlers. I see a lot of worker mining going on in near the icepack and they really need to be getting Kyoto up to 15 spt so we can have a horse every other turn from there. Likewise, Osaka needs serious development.

If in fact there is only the one Sumerian iron on this continent, any plan against them should include sending a force by sea to cut that source. We won't fare well with the Sumerian MI and knights that their iron source will provide. If we do nothing more than cut the road, he will be back to archer/LBs, and we can deal with that situation a lot better.

Will send some workers back to get the shield count up on our best cities. We are going to have Republic in 10. Is that the government we're going with, and should we revolt as soon as we get it? That would mean we really can't fight Sumeria then.

I agree with that plan. Small force to cut the iron by sea, large force via land perhaps? that would limit the amount of galleys required, letting the core focus on unit building. Iron being on a mountain means that a few spears with archer or cat support should be able to hold off MDI's for a while. Do the Sumerians have horses?

Not sure if we want to wait on revolting as we really need to get out of despot ASAP. I take it by your post that we don't have enough luxes to fight in a Republic, so, if you can pull a trade for Monarchy, by all means lets do it and revolt.

edit: and i agree with getting the core mined instead of the crappy tundra. that really seems a no-brainer and i'm suprised the save was found that way. Also suprising is that the plains near Izumo are not irrigated, even though when I passed the save, I had 2 workers extending the water out to that area :confused: why was that changed? seems like another no-brainer (or is the graphics mod confusing me?)

I irrigated one of the plains near Izumo, so water is now available there. Anything after that was not my call, IIRC.

I agree on taking a bite out of Sumeria before they get too large. Taking out the iron seems a feasible and smart plan as well.

I irrigated one of the plains near Izumo, so water is now available there. Anything after that was not my call, IIRC.

ok, great. guess the graphics mod was confusing me :crazyeye:

Plains by Izumo: why do they all need to be irrigated now? The second tile will be irrigated at the end of this turn but the town will not grow for another 5 as previous builds from this town have been workers thus Izumo is working fully developed tiles and so are the other towns in this area-this was not the case when I took over as tiles were being worked that were in the process of being developed. We are now in a situation where new citizens will be put onto a fully developed tile if the workers stay around here. The water is there and grass tiles were re-mined by KB. I then developed the town with large population (Kagoshima) which needed urgent development before the size one towns. This also applies to the NW area although it is slightly behind schedule but it was difficult to get to several towns that were unconnected.

Mining tundra: ??? I think you need to look at the save! No workers are mining tundra! I continued the mining of grass to the north of tundra and then the workers have been sent to road towards the south. On reflection the towns bordering the tundra are probably too corrupt to benefit fully from this so I admit probably not the best use of our workers here. However IMO we will need those roads if we are to keep the towns down there as well as get the settlers there quickly.

Osaka: during my turns I increased shield output from 5 to 7 by mining the two grass tiles. Yes it does need more development but this is all we can get from this town at the moment unless we increase lux to get the scientist working or start irrigating grass with Republic.

I agree with developing Kyoto but at the time I took the save over my instructions were to grab more land and hence more settlers were needed(and I didn't disagree with this). Kyoto was pumping out settlers and the tiles for this purpose were fully developed. However at the time surrounding towns were working some undeveloped tiles but now all our core towns are working tiles that have been mined/irrigated as I took the view that tiles that will be worked in the future are not as important as tiles that are being worked at the moment. There are workers in the area that can attend to future development.

BTW if we are going to stop grabbing land then I think we should settle a couple more towns in our core to use the tiles around our capital more.

re Izumo: ok, ok, i just don't see the irrigation there in your pic. the graphics mod made it look to me like it wasn't done. thanks for doing it, and your logic is sound :)

I see a lot of worker mining going on in near the icepack and they really need to be getting Kyoto up to 15 spt so we can have a horse every other turn from there.
ok, i read this as mining tundra. my fault for the misunderstanding. however, i do agree that roading toward that area is all that is needed. mining the grass won't help.
and i do agree that sending workers back towards the core is urgent so we can get ready for war.

BTW if we are going to stop grabbing land then I think we should settle a couple more towns in our core to use the tiles around our capital more. well, we're trying to start grabbing Sumerian land :hammer: if you have some spots that you think are good for new towns around the core, please share :)

I don't want to speak for M60, but I think his general comments were in regards to our war readiness (or lack thereof). He was just stating his plan to get the core up to warspeed and pointing out the towns he would key on.

Yes, I try not to make waves here, but am simply saying if we want to fight Sumeria that we should get more production by developing the terrain around Kyoto than mining the no-shield grassland in towns with corruption. I said on or near the ice because I didn't have the save in front of me when I wrote this. Road builds I absolutely agree we need to accelerate the movement of settlers east.

Apologies-a bad day at work :blush:

Apologies-a bad day at work :blush:no problem, we all need to blow off steam once in a while :) and i see what you mean about fitting another town or 2 near the core. Lots of land between Kagoshima and Tokyo for 1 town and then another NE of Kagoshima and NW of Izuma. both coastal so both can build galleys while the others build units.

I have had a quick look at the save and agree with M60 re. the situation. War on Sumeria is the only real road forward in this game. But, we need to plan for the Iron to be cut. And the Japanese nation is far from on a War footing. A dozen Chariots to upgrade = 360 gold. Plus we need to finish Republic and switch government before starting that war. I just hope the 15+ turns are more than India can manage on their own. During these 15+ turns, how many HMs can we build? We will have to fight with inferior units but hopefully we will be able to mass enough HMs to get to the Iron.

I just hope the 15+ turns are more than India can manage on their own. During these 15+ turns, how many HMs can we build? We will have to fight with inferior units but hopefully we will be able to mass enough HMs to get to the Iron.

If we revolt in 10, then we would not have any production until we came out of anarchy, so we're looking at a smaller production window.

The save at 150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-150_BC.SAV)

IBT- Well Sumeria didn’t wait long to hit us up for 20 gold. I pay him off. And they’re building KT.

Turn 1 (330BC)- Some worker stuff

IBT- Sumeria loses a couple units to India. Dutch building KT. Tokyo temple>horse.

Turn 2 (310BC) More worker stuff.

IBT- Edo settler>harbor, Kyoto and Osaka settler> horse.

Turn 3 (290BC) And more worker stuff.

IBT- Egypt building KT. Sumeria starts Leos. Kagoshima horse>temple.

Turn 4 (270BC) Wish I had more to report than …worker stuff

IBT- Sumerian MI knocks off Indian archer.

Turn 5 (250BC) Republic now drops to 1 turn. Trying to still get settlers east. Found Suo and another town.

IBT- Republic in, science off. Dutch starts Sistines. India must have just learned Republic before we got there. Dutch finish Great Library. French working on KT, Sun’s Leos.

Turn 6 (230BC) Darn Egyptian settler beat us to a fishing village. Don’t see any good options at the moment, so revolt to get us out of despotism. We’ll use that religious trait and be a Republic in 2. Need a couple clowns and taxmen.

IBT- Saw a big Sumerian SoD kill an Indian archer and head back to their town of Karachi.

Turn 7 (210BC) Worker stuff.

IBT- Egypt finishes KT.

Turn 8 (190BC) Bizen founded. I forgot that going to a Republic early can be a costly move. Have to hire a scientist and turn science off, then disband a couple units to get our cash stabilized. Lux rate to 10%. Change a couple builds to markets.

IBT- France building Sistines.

Turn 9 (170BC) Echizen founded. Kyoto needs a taxman.

IBT- Indians still appear to be holding on.

Turn 10 (150BC) Have to put lux to 20%, a single scientist in Toyama. And done.

Unit costs are killing us, at 60 gpt to support 20 units over the max. A lot of them are workers, so we’re at least getting stuff built out. Two settlers out east should alleviate the unit costs a bit more, as well as the markets in the pipeline. But it definitely puts a damper on military expansion. Looks like Kolhapur flipped back to India.

We currently have 20 towns.

preturn:
MM cities. many tiles are left on low shield / low commerce from the anarchy period.
increase gpt from 3 to 11.

IBT - Sumer build Leo's

1. 130BC workers actions.

IBT - france complete Sun Tzu's
Sumer complete Sistine.

2. 110BC workers actions.

IBT - lost curragh on ocean. I tryied to get it home for upgrade. well +2gpt.
Sumer is overpowering india.

3-4 90BC-70BC workers actions.

5. 50BC. founded a town. our support cost is now 42 gpt (severl towns expanded to cities as well)

IBT - dutch knows astronomy and state the observatory.

6. 30BC.
trade silks to dutch for 16g + 10gpt

7. 10BC. founded a town

IBT - india our down to 3 cities.

8 10AD. nothing much

IBT dutch need 33g to do something. I give them

9-10 30AD-50AD. nothing much.

summery:
pretty boring set of turns.
concentraded on infrastructure. in the several last turns started to produce military units again.
I suggest that towns without barracks should produce catapults (we need many of those) low production towns should produce spears. high production town should produce horses.
We may be able to start attacking in 10-20 turns.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-50_AD.SAV)

That was fast! I will probably be able to play tonight or tomorrow morning (GMT). Any requests? Or is it just a question of ramping up for War on Sumeria?

Looks like war prep for you, Wotan. Probably important to get the iron cutting crew out on boats during your set too.

Roster:
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS
Mailman
Wotan -> UP
grahamiam -> on deck

War preparation!

Turn log

0 – 50AD Pre-flight
Upgrade the remaining Chariots to HMs. Rush two Spearmen and change a build to a Galley in preparation for “Operation Iron Cutters”. India is all but out of the game now. I guess they will soon be gone so I buy Construction from them for 25 gpt. Sumeria are up (at least) Engineering, Monteism and Feudalism) as are all but India. Why building mines everywhere??? We need a balance between mines and irrigation. Am changing a lot of them to irrigation. We are after all a Republic now. Lets use that to our advantage.

1 – 70AD
Change some builds. Kyoto has two forests cleared IBT, I did not check to see if this was wasted shield or not?

2 – 90AD
Continue to move units towards frontiers.

IBT: Sumerians build Copernicus!!! How far behind are we?

3 – 110AD
Nothing much.

IBT: Dutch builds Magellans.

4 – 130AD
Rather uneventful.

IBT: Egypt demand 24 gold. I give it to them.

5-9 150AD-230Ad
Nada

10 – 250AD
Echigo founded.


After action report:
Keep an eye on India, they are down to 2 cities now. They are willing to part with Monotheism for 46 gpt. We could take it now and pay for a few turns or wait for them to get to a single city.

Iron Cutters en route, 6 turns until they can land. Unfortunately there are no coastal tiles within reach of the iron outside of Sumerian culture so we will either have to move past or DoW before reaching Iron. 12 HMs in the south, 13 in the north. When we do DoW we need to understand the war will have to be short or the full wrath of the Sumerian army in the extreme north will reach our borders. I am not sure we will have enough strenght to fight our way to the iron... At least 50 Sumerian units have moved by Karachi and our Warrior there. 20+ of them Knights.
Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-250_AD.SAV)

ggggggot it

ggggggot it :lol:

I have faith in you and KB to wrap this up! :)

Keep an eye on India, they are down to 2 cities now. They are willing to part with Monotheism for 46 gpt. We could take it now and pay for a few turns or wait for them to get to a single city. Don't we take a rep hit if we don't pay the full 20 turns? (or don't we care?!)

Not if they are destroyed. So it would be a really inexpensive tech.

Preflight check: Buy Mono for 47gpt. Sell WM for Egypts TM and 6g. Buy Sumeria’s TM for WM and 11g.
Notice that Sumeria actually has 2 sources of Iron.
We still want to attack or do we play nice and wait to buy it? Maybe build a library or market? However, with all the marsh around, it will probably take them forever to connect it.

edit: actually, now that I think about it, I think this makes our war a lot easier. Just need to raze Erech and Kish, then bring up a settler and sign peace.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-250AD-1.jpg

I'd say take it while we have the chance. We don't want another Goz8 situation.

That second Iron could be our way out of the current situation, It is close enough to our frontier to be a feasible target for our war. Settle either SE of it if that tile is available or E/SE if not and rush a Temple.

Since Sumer has not connected it yet, our war plans remains the same with the additional immediate target.
There is a vary good chance that we will encouter a lot of muskets on our way.
It will be a bloody war.

That looks a lot better! :)

Well done for looking closely after buying their TM. I looked at an old save and we didn't have knowledge of that tile before.

Cont’d
IBT: Tokyo horse -> horse; Nagoya court -> harbor; Ise harbor -> settler; Izumi spear -> worker; Omi spear -> spear

T1: 260AD building and moving up.

IBT: Greeks demand 24g and get it; dutch ask us to get out; Kyoto horse -> horse; Kagoshima horse -> horse; Hakodate worker -> settler; Toyama temple -> worker; Bizen spear ->temple
Egypt building Magellans

T2: 270AD India down to an OCC. Build and Embassy with Egypt

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-270AD.jpg

Get 1g + RoP with Egypt. Hire some taxman to get us to black (temporarily)

IBT: Sumeria destroys India, income jumps to +69gpt; Osaka horse -> horse; Edo duct -> horse

T3: 280AD Positioning. Sumeria has connected their 2nd iron. Hmm. Can buy it for WM, 16gpt, and 95g. Decide to spend 63g and build an Embassy in Ur (Sumeria)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-280AD.jpg

Yikes!

IBT: Kyoto horse -> horse; Fukushima galley -> galley

T4: 290AD Moving, waiting for some Egyptian workers to get out of the way.

IBT: Osaka horse -> spear; Suo Barracks -> market; Sumerian’s building Smith’s, they complete Copernicus

T5: 300AD Investigate Kish, 4 muskets, 1 cat, building Magellans (29T). Well, it’s either horses vs muskets or Samuria’s vs rifles because Sumeria is in the IA :(

IBT: Sumeria demands TM + 20g; Kyoto horse -> horse; Tokyo horse -> horse; Edo horse -> horse; kagoshima horse -> horse
Dutch are building Smith’s

T6: 310AD I think we may need to take a stab at the Glib ladder to get back in this as the tech pace is brutal. Therefore, but Dutch TM for WM and 80g. Amsterdam is far, but reachable by galley.

IBT: Sell Silks to Dutch for WM and 5gpt
Osaka spear -> settler; Nagoya harbor -> galley; Nagasaki horse -> horse

T7: 320AD Sell WM around for money

IBT: Sumeria boots our iron cutting galley :( Looks like I’ll declare without that being cut.

Kyoto horse -> horse, Sapporo temple -> harbor

T8: 330AD Investigate Erech. It has 3 muskets and a caravel, building a University (8T). Just noticed that Sumeria has 7 lux’s :(

DoW on Sumeria. Ally Egypt vs Sumeria for WM, 23gpt, and 65g (that cost the Sumerians Furs)
Move 21 horseman towards Kish.
Attack on Kutallu: Horse kills EW (2/4); horse redlines EW but dies; horse kills EW and we raze the town (2 slaves)
Outside Satsuma: Galley dies to galley (2/4)

IBT: Lose our exploring warrior and iron cutting galley. Portugal and Egypt MA vs Sumeria :)
Osaka settler -> horse; Edo horse -> horse

T9: 340AD Attack on Edo: horse retreats from musket (3/4); horse retreats; horse dies (4/5); horse retreats; horse retreats; horse dies; horse dies (4/5); horse retreats; horse dies; horse retreats (3/5); horse kills musket (2/4); horse retreats; horse retreats; horse dies; horse retreats (2/5); horse retreats; horse dies; horse dies (2/5); horse kills musket (4/4); horse kills musket and

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-340AD.jpg

Raze it getting a cat and 5 slaves.
11 redlined or so horses move back to Egyptian territory for healing, getting cover from a spear.

IBT: 2 Sumerian knights come down near the ruins of Edo.
Kyoto horse -> horse; Kagoshima horse -> horse
French complete Bach’s

T10: 350AD Greece now has a spare iron for sale.
Verify that there are no Knight S of Anshan with a vet horse
Move injured horseman into Shimonoseki for healing.
WW is starting to kick in. Buy Furs from Egypt for 14gpt and 107g. Still need a clown or 2.

We can buy iron from Greece for 22gpt and 7g.

I left the military around Erech and Asyut unmoved as I’m not sure what KB wants to do with the 2 threatening Knights. I would attack them, but the risk is high.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-350AD.jpg

Looks like a good start. I think I'll go with attacking the knights as well, I'd rather take 2 vs 3 than 1 vs 4. Got it.

Let's just make sure we have our settler(s) standing by. We don't want to get the area cleared just to see them reclaim the area once peace breaks out.

1 settler is in Shimo. another can be squeezed out of any nearby town (Tokyo, Matsuyama, etc).

Scary stuff, going against muskets (soon to be riflemen) with only horses and spears.
Nice going on the razing of 2 cities.

Edit: Did anybody see an AI army so far?

re: army's: no, just big stacks of junk sweeping down from former india (LB, EW's, and other crap).

as for the muskets, we'll need 15 to 20 horses for each size 7+ city so keep building them like mad.

We may be fortunate in that any MI slow movers are going to be working their way back from the distant north, so we'll be dealing with a few less units than might otherwise be the case. It will still be a brutal fight.

Are we going the distance with the alliances? In other words if we can make peace in 10 and be assured of getting the iron, do we make peace or still stick out the 20 turns of any alliances?

i say we grab the iron and then sign peace. it'll kill our rep, but I'm not sure it's feasible for us to fight this war longer than necessary.

Preturn- This is scary stuff. I unleash the horses on the knights and the first one kills the first knight losing 2hp, we manage to wound the second one, thats good enough to make it run.

IT- Sumeria comes down with three knights, we lose a spear.

T1 360

Move some troops around, waiting for our force to heal up.

IT- we lose a couple spears and a horse.

T2 370

Move our force into position to make a run towards Erech next turn.

IT- I come to the sad realization that we stand no realistic chance of getting to the iron as we get slaughtered by Sumerian knights. Netherlands declares on Egypt.

T3 380

The war whiners require us to up the lux and hire some clowns.

I withdraw our troops to Shimonseki. I think we’re looking at peace and a broken alliance in a few turns just to survive.

IT- We fend off one knight, Egyptian town fends off a couple. Dutch start Newton’s and are fully Industrial.

T4 390

It takes plenty of horses, but I manage to kill the incoming stack of muskets and knights Sumeria threw at us. In fact we shed so much blood lux needs to be raised again.

IT- And just when I thought we might be able to prolong this war, Sumeria sends 16 knights to our border. So much for that. Also, they have already plopped a new town down to reclaim their land.

T5 400

Well, time for peace it is, broken alliance or not. It won’t take Sumeria more than 13 turns to end our existence. Of course, it would work a lot better if they would acknowledge our envoy. Yikes. Withdraw and hope they will talk next turn.

IT- Sumeria takes Asyut and attacks us. We lose several horses.

T6 410

Sumeria will talk and take peace straight up. However, I deal for Engineering, getting it for 239g and 20gpt.

I put us back into full builder mode for now, starting some libraries. I lower lux back to 10%, allowing us to research Feudalism in 8 turns.

Some good news. Sumeria, Greece and Portugal all have spare iron. I think we should research to Chivalry, get that iron, uprade our remaining horses and build some Sammys and go after Sumeria for real.

IT- France declares on Egypt. Sumeria completes Smith’s.

T7 420

Nothing much to do. Nice and quiet for a change.

IT- Portugal declares on Egypt. Dutch complete Newton’s.

T8 430

Fairly quiet turn again.

IT- zzz

T9 440

All quiet yet again.

IT- zzz

T10 450

Nothing new.



Summary

We are in a builder mode now, with several Libraries near completion. I would advocate cheap Cathedrals after that for happiness help. Right by the time we are finishing those up, we should be quite close to Chivalry and Samurai. We now have iron available, so we should have no trouble building them. Hopefully our trashed rep won’t hurt us there.

The workers in the southwest are trying to get water hooked up to the are so we can irrigate and have some specialist farms, as the cities are completely corrupt.

I have a settler in place to form a squeezed city by Asyut. It’s a close fit, but it won’t cause a declaration since it only overlaps one of Asyut’s nine starting tiles.

That sounded tough! I cannot look at it until this evening as I'm late for work already. I'm sure that I'll have some questions this evening though. :)

well, that was always a possibility. next, it'll be sami's vs rifles. might as well get some rock chuckers built as well. also, sounds like a WW vs Egypt atm. that's not good either :( recommend we buy iron from someone other than Sumeria. no need pumping that monster with more gold.

Roster:
Kaiser Berger
Tone -> UP
M60A3TTS -> on deck
Mailman
Wotan
grahamiam

Got it. Looks straightforward. (Looks like we can get iron when we want it for around 15gpt.) Happiness, cats and horses-correct? I'll play tomorrow.

I like stacks of Samurai and trebs against rifles a lot better than a stack of horses against muskets. The countering knights were just brutal. At least with Samurai we stand a chance on defense.

Sorry, didn't get around to playing Sat biut can play today.

Just one question before I start: will the price of iron get more expensive when we get Fued and even more expensive when we get Chiv or is it only when you have a use for it that the price goes up but additional applications for the resource add no additional value?

I've never heard of it getting more expenisve with new tech. All I know is that its based on your size.

i know that oil gets more expensive once you learn combustion, but I don't know if it gets more expensive as you learn MT and Flight. I assume it's the same for iron, but once you learn IW, you can build iron-based units. Anyways, to be safe, let's buy it 1T before we learn chivalry.

I've never heard of it getting more expenisve with new tech. All I know is that its based on your size.

There are cases where new tech changes price. For example Oil is considered to have no value with refining. However, once you get a tech with military units that use oil the price changes.

EDIT: Looks like I cross posted the same fact...

Yes, it was the oil example that got me thinking about this. Normally I wouldn't worry too much but as it's an SG and we're in a tricky situation, I thought I'd better ask before it was too late. :) I'll carry on and post later this evening.

There could be another reason but the price of iron has shot up. I've only played 6 turns so far-see end of post.

turn 0 (450)
everything fine-press enter

IBT
Izumi: worker>worker. Gr dec war on Egypt.

turn 1 (460)
Squeeze in Kozuke (temple)

IBT
I wasn't on the ball as a lux deal runs out. Kyoto riots but I scroll through the rest.
Osaka: lib>cath, Shimonoseki: court>lib, Toyama: worker>worker.

turn 2 (470)
I can't find a reference to any lux deals in the posts but I could be as blind as a bat. Edu and Tokyo are starving (switch builds from libs to caths as growth will cause probs even with lux in these food-poor cities) and we have stacks of specialists in the North where we need them working tiles so I buy Incence from Greece for WM and 13gpt.
Workers move to get water in the south flowing for specialist factories.

IBT
Renew RoP with Egypt getting 1gpt.
Kyoto: cath>treb. Edu:cath>lib. Bizen: settler>settler.

turn 3 (480)
zzz

IBT
Fued>Chiv (in 7)
Tokyo: cath>lib.

turn 4 (490)
Build Sado (temple)

IBT
Sum and Egypt sign PT
Kyoto: treb>treb

turn 5 (500)
zzz

IBT
Kogoshima: Lib>cath

turn 6 (510)
A lux that we've been selling is up for renewal. We have Chiv in 4-5 turns so I investigate buying it and iron. Can get Chiv from the Greeks for our WM, 17gpt and 224g. Iron though is a different matter. Portugal will trade for silks and 93gpt and the Greeks want WM and 100gpt!

It's clear that we will have to research Chiv but the price for iron has gone up just a bit so we will not be able to upgrade many horses in our 20 turns . Perhaps research should be turned down a bit to build up some cash reserves? Currently can get Chiv in 5 turns @ -24gpt although the lux will bring in some cash.

I cannot play on until this evening and I realise that I've dragged this out too long. RL issues, sorry!. I attach the save if the next player wants to pick it up and run with it-just post a got it if this happens so I know not to continue with it. NB the lux needs to be sold though.

our survival depends on the iron. if we want to get it cheaper, try renegociating peace while buying it. i suspect our rep is a bit tarnished by signing peace with Sumeria before our MA with Egypt ran out.

Tone, if you want to finish this tonight, I suspect you have time before M60 can look at it. Either way, post a "got it" so we don't have any confusion.

Roster:
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS -> UP
Mailman -> on deck
Wotan
grahamiam

I looked at the possibility of buying iron after KB had finished and it was available for 15gpt (go back about 10 posts) so it cannot be our rep as we'd already broken the alliances by then. :confused:

I won't be home until late this evening as I have a 7.30pm meeting :sad: but I will play it when I get home unless M60 gets there first. I shall continue to research and buy the iron with one turn of research left. M60 will then play with virtually no gpt to play with so we've really got to get that iron source from Sumeria on our next attack.

You've got it Tone, so finish it up. I'll take what I get.

Right. I'm finally at home so I can finish my set now. Expect a post soon.

turn 6 continued
Dutch give us just short of 300g and wm for silks.

IBT
Kyoto: Treb>Treb. Satsuma: Lib>Cath. Suo: market>Aqueduct.

turn 7 (520)
zzz

IBT
The Dutch make a demand for 43g. They have cavs so fine, take the cash.

turn 8 (530)
zzz

IBT
Kyoto: treb>treb.

turn 9 (540)
One turn from Chiv so I check out the iron situation. Portugal want 100gpt but if we give them our horses it reduces the gpt to 73. Still expensive but better and we don't need the horses anymore, do we?! We then run research at a deficit for one turn and we have Sams in production. Change treb build to horseman beforehand and convert lib builds next turn and we get some Sams started early. What do you think? I'm not sure about renegotiating peace though they are already at war so it may pay off. I'll leave that to you M60 and I'll stop a turn short just in case you don't like the idea but I can't see anything better. (Research is off to enable the iron deal!)

nahh, reneg peace is a bad idea, actually. if the iron route gets cutoff, we'd be at war. nice headsup on the prebuilds :)

M60 up (for sure now)
Mailman on deck

Well the 'prebuilds' weren't actually prebuilds; they were me in builder mode following on from KB thinking that we could pick up iron for around 15gpt. I just think that libs are a luxury at the moment as we now just need stacks of military to get to the iron if we are to stand a chance of turning this game around. I haven't seen any Sum cavs yet BTW so it's not all bad. :)

Our PT with Sum will be up half-way through M60s turn set. As there was gpt involved, will they automatically ask for a renewal or is it only if they pay us gpt in a PT when this happens? (And if it is going to happen what should our response be?)

A couple things.

Did the iron deal. Doing turn 3 at the moment, and we have a few samurai. It costs 120 gold to upgrade a horse. As cash starved as we are, I could only upgrade two horses. I'm thinking of sending most of the rest to the glue factory for 7 shields each to expedite samurai production. They just won't be much good in the next battle. Understand we don't want to get too low, so I only would do it when we have like 7-14 shields to go in a city for a samurai. The idea is to squeeze out every last samurai before the iron deal expires.

The other thing is the western zone is almost totally corrupted, and building a lot of roads/mines isn't adding anything to the bottom line. Rather than crank out more workers and settlers that add to our support costs, my thought is to merge most workers into the towns to get them to pop 6 with a couple taxmen in each. That will add to the cash flow considerably, and allow some small rush buys, again squeezing out more samurai.

Also, the Dutch have cav, so you can be pretty sure the Sumerians do as well.

Sounds reasonable IMO if we are using horses to produce Sams as we are not getting any weaker by doing it and, as you say, we can then squeeze every last drop out of the iron deal. I guess there will be a time when we will be at war without iron (hopefully not too long) when we could produce horses for upgrading again.

The settlers and workers were to go flooded ICS in the SW and then merge the workers back to the towns again to produce specialist farms (KB's suggestion). Have we got enough now?

I saw some Dutch cavs as well but although there was plenty of the usual pointless movement for Sum units around the borders (plus a SoD heading for an Egyptian town just before they signed a PT), I never saw any cavs. I know that doesn't mean they haven't got them but if the majority of their forces are knights we stand a slightly better chance. Perhaps I'm just trying to hold onto any glimmer of hope that comes our way :)

The save at 650AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-650_AD.SAV)

Pre-turn- MM Kyoto from 22 to 24 spt, so that will be a samurai every 3. Do the deal with Henry, our horse, 72gpt, 8 gold and a TM. Trade Joan TM and 67 gold for Chivalry. We would have paid 76 through science.

IBT- Lots of Sumerians move. Shudder.

Turn 1 (550AD) Merge a worker into Osaka to get it to 14spt, a samurai every 5. Upgrade 2 horses at 120 gold a pop.

IBT- Not much

Turn 2 (560AD) MM where I can. Disband a Sumerian cat to shave a turn off samurai in Shimonoseki.

IBT- Again not mutch, see a Dutch cav go by.

Turn 3 (570AD) Up to 7 samurai.

IBT- Dutch moving around Egyptian town of Lisht, so that will fall next turn.

Turn 4 (580AD) Kokuzr flip risk is high, rush a temple. Two horses disbanded in Fukushima. Up to 8 samurai.

IBT- Dutch attack Lisht but don’t get it. Redlined Dutch cav moves off to heal.

Turn 5 (590AD) Looking for more worker things to do, but not much. Swap an irrigated tile to mine at Matsumaya to shave off a turn. Chop a tree in Sado.

IBT- Trade TM with Greece.

Turn 6 (600AD) Now an even dozen.

IBT- Joan wants to trade WMs plus she wants 10 gold. Nope.

Turn 7 (610AD) Spend some cash to get a samurai in 1 turn vs. 2.

IBT- Gilgamesh wants to renew peace straight up. I take it as we’re not ready yet.

Turn 8 (620AD) 14 Samurai. The Dutch almost have Cleo wiped out. We have a couple walls going up in our western towns.

IBT- Portugal and Sumeria sign peace. Greece and Egypt sign peace. Egypt and France sign peace. Sumeria allies with Netherlands against Egypt. We can expect some visitors any minute.

Turn 9 (630AD) Move two warriors into the only land tiles that Lisht can be attacked from. Block off the chokes so Sumeria can’t sent a task force deep into our area.

IBT- Abydos is taken by Dutch, only Lisht remains.

Turn 10 (640AD) Park 3 samurai just outside Lisht. RoP expires in 3. Spend 94 gold to establish an embassy with the Dutch. Amsterdam has 1 coal, salt, iron, salt. 9 rifles, 2 LB, a Swiss Merc and a cannon. Building a privateer. Dutch are now polite. We can get 74 gold for an alliance against Cleo as soon as the RoP expires. So the embassy will cost us net 20 if they stay at war long enough. 17 Samurai now.

IBT- Sumeria wants TM and 17 gold. OK. Dutch are building US.

Turn 11 (650AD) Nara needs a taxman. Invention in 23. 19 Samurai and done.

Post turn- As soon as the RoP expires, Mailman should pull the two warriors from Lisht, ally with the Dutch and declare on Cleo. One of the 3 samurai should win a battle and our GA will be off and running. We can take it from there. Iron deal expires in 9. Most samurai are just sitting in garrison waiting for a plan.

Got it. probably play in 12 hours.
I think my turn set will continue the build-up of our army.

pre-turn:
Status:
egypt is down to 1 city
19 samurai
We are in the start of the middle ages. Netherland and Sumer are at least in the IA.
MM a bit and press enter

IBT - Netherland and egypt sign peace
Sumer land 5 cavs, MI and a bow near undefnded city (Toyoma).

1 660AD
Very hard to decide if Sumeria will attack or are they are going for egypt.
bought invention + 66g + WM for 48gpt (a.k.a. insurance).
sell WM around for extra 9g (noticed that Netherland has 5760g)
set lone scientiest on gunpowder project.
hire some taxman to give level us on 0gpt (+111g in the piggibank)
move the three samuraies near the last egypt city the city that is on the chock between the west part and the core of our empire.
move forces to potintial front with Sumer.

IBT - Sumer move forces toward our core without attacking. what are they planing?


2. 670AD
move our forced outside Lisht sinceour RoP is about to expire next turn. hopfully Sumer forces will go there.
Netherland now have 6337g (+570gpt!!!)

IBT
incense deal expired. not enough gold to renew.
RoP with egypt expired. I do not renew.
Sumer land musket + MI + bow at the same spot as before.

3. 680AD
capital riots. cycle through cities to solve problems
a city with around 5 samuraies + 3 horses deposed!!!.
mapstat indicates that it had ~2% probabilty of doing so.
Sumer had nationalism. the defending unit create is rifleman.
we are so behind on culture: 3K vs 18K of Sumer and Netherland.
we now have 19 samuraies.
build embacy with portugal (95g) ally with them agains egypt for 28g + 4gpt + WM


IBT - Sumer eliminate egypt.
Portugal demand 20g + TM. I gave.

4 690AD
raise lux to 20% try to get as many samuraies as possible in the iron deal.
gold 59 + 2gpt.

IBT.
more grerat news: Sumeria and Netherland sign MPP.
So if we want to attack, we will have the 2 superpower against us.
I think this game is a goner.

5 700AD.
nothing much. notice that Netherland start laying railroads.

6. 710AD.
sell silks to Netherland for 26gpt.

7. 720AD
last turn of the iron deal.
made sure that all cities with barracks are building samuraies.

IBT - sumer start to pass muskets on our land.

8. 730AD
nothing much.

9. 740AD

IBT - sumer add more muskets to the already passing muskets.
We lost the iron deal. no way to renew.
An overlook caused a city to riot.

10. 750AD
cities that complete samuraies start building trebs.
We now have 30 samuraies with 11 on queue.

Summery:
We are in a bad bad shape:
we are an age behind. no iron. our immidiate enemy is a superpower with MPP to the other superpower. low on cash. low on culture. poor army, and so on.
we should be ready to (our last) war in a few turns after getting some trebs.

grim indeed. we need a plan. Glib strike? how can we use the MPP against them?

reroll the start?

Roster:
Kaiser Berger
Tone
M60A3TTS
Mailman
Wotan -> UP
grahamiam -> on deck

This game might not develop so we can explore AI armies. Maybe we should restart?

This is looking grim, but I'd say we at least try the war and see what happens before rerolling. Perhaps we could renegotiate peace with Netherlands and get an MPP and then let Sumeria attack us?

well, it's up to the team. i'll reroll or play this one to the bitter end. we still have a GA to get thru, but not sure if we'll live to the end of it. imho, there's only 1 way to find out :)

edit: kb, reneg peace to get an MPP sounds good. we may be able to get Sumeria to "move or declare" which would bring the Dutch in right away (MPP kicks in if troops are in your territory).

I tried to get MPP with Netherland. we just do not have enought gold for it at this point.
I actually tried to get MPP with all, but they did nor bite.

Boy, this is a tough game! IMO we might as well see what happens if we play on. It should take long if we don't have luck on our side and heaven help us if we do see AI armies:D

move our forced outside Lisht sinceour RoP is about to expire next turn. hopfully Sumer forces will go there.

I don't understand why the warriors were moved when the RoP was in place. The idea was to prevent the Sumerians from landing so we would get the kill using samurai and at least have a GA running before a Sumerian war. :(

Oh well, it's done. If the team wants to play on, I'm fine with it. Our one last hope would be to get to gunpowder quick enough and hope Sumeria's source is within range of whatever offensive force we can muster.

OK, will play on saturday.

I don't understand why the warriors were moved when the RoP was in place. The idea was to prevent the Sumerians from landing so we would get the kill using samurai and at least have a GA running before a Sumerian war. The situation was that Sumer already landed forces (~5 cavs + ~5 slow units). those forces started advancing toward our core.

On the first turn of the landing I pulled the samuraies back to the chock point to be prepared in case Sumer decide to attack us.

On the RoP expire turn I decided that the egyptian city whould be a nice target to the Sumer forces in order for them not to attck us instead.

Turn log

0 – 350AD Pre-flight
Better to attack Knights than to defend against them with Horsemen. Two HMs for two Knights…

IBT: Knight kills HM.

1 – 360AD
Tokyo HM -> HM
Izumi Worker -> Barracks
Pull back to Shimonoseki, let the Egyptians at Asyut make a stand.

IBT: Asyut falls. Dutch establish an embassy. Sumerians starts building Magellans.

2 – 370AD
Kyoto HM -> HM.
Osaka HM -> HM.
Edo HM -> HM.
Satsuma Marketplace -> HM.
Toyama Worker -> Worker

We capture Aysut. 4 HM for 4 Knights. We get Netherlands to join in for WM, 68 gold and 25gpt.

IBT: Knight kills HM. Another 3 Knights appear near Asyut. France and Netherlands ally vs. Sumeria.

3 – 380AD
Nagoya HM -> HM

5HM for 4 Knights. We are losing this war!!! We cannot continue to trade HMs for Knights.

IBT: 1 Spearman and 2 HMs lost, only one Knight died. Dutch building Newton’s.

4 – 390AD
Kyoto HM -> HM.
Osaka Spearman -> Catapult
Kagoshima HM -> HM.
Echizen Temple -> Catapult.

If we are to fight defensively we need plenty of artillery to reduce attackers. 1 Knight, no losses!

IBT: Sumerian SoD appears,

5 – 400AD
Edo HM -> Catapult.
Nagasaki HM -> HM.

I stopped playing here. 11 Sumerian Knights are within striking distance of our two frontier locations. We have a total of 11 units to use in the two locations. It is now a question of what to do? Reduce Asyut and move everything into our other location, or? 12.30AM so I need to go to bed. I can continue tomorrow or the next player on the roster can take it from here.

This is by far the worst situation I have been in for a long, long time in Civ3…

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-400_AD.SAV)

sounds bad, will look at it later.

Maybe we need to reconsider the decision to continue?

wotan, please play the 750AD save :lol:

5 – 400AD

:confused: How the heck did we go from 750 to 400AD?

oops, cross post w/g-man

I thought it was strange. Shows my attention span. :blush: It's 5am here so I should go to bed!

Oh God, how utterly stupid of me. OK will play again. I was so sure I had Dled the save I never even thought about it when I opened it... Sorry...

An AI Army!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6gramsarmy.JPG

Turn log

0 – 750AD Pre-flight
After a slight time travel episode I embark on this yet again… Looking at the situationa minor question pops up; why are we mining in the SW? The corruption is forbidding in this area, the only work that should take place are roads, irrigation or planting/chopping forests.

IBT: Sumerians are building Universal Suffrage.

1 – 760AD
A few Samurai built, I start building Trebouchets in most of the cities.

IBT: Sumeria DoW. Echizen, Omo and Toyama falls. A Samurai in N defends vs. a MI and GA commence.

2 – 770AD

We capture Aysut and retake Kozuke and Toyama. 4 HM for 4 Knights. We get Netherlands to join in for WM, 68 gold and 25gpt. MMP Sumeria/Netherlands are triggered. Portugal agree to ally with us vs. Netherlands for Silk, 85 gpt and 325 gold.

IBT:. Kozuke falls, Izumi falls.

3 – 780AD
WW so severe we are running at 50% lux and yet we need to use citizens to keep the cities in check.

IBT: Bizen falls, Echizen destroyed. 3 units, one of them a Cavalry lands next to Satsuma.

4 – 790AD
Cav near Satsuma killed. The Archer/MI will be contained and hopefully killed next turn. Two Elite attacks, no leader. We desperately need a leader.

IBT: Toyama falls. Ise falls 6 Samurai defending and 4 Cavalry died. There is no end to the number of Cavalry the Sumerians have.

5 – 800AD
Intruders near Satsuma killed. We are on a slippery slope so this is probably our final victory.

IBT: France and Sumeria sign an embargo vs. us. Hakodate falls, Nara Falls. Dutch get Greeks to join in… We lost a luxury due to this so a lot of locations goes into unrest.

6 – 810AD

Scraping together whatever can be found to form a southern defense.

IBT: Sapporo falls. Nagoya falls, but the two Samurai kills 4 Cavalry before falling.

7 – 820AD

Kill a redlined Cavalry!!! A victory… ;)

IBT: Satsuma falls.

8 – 830AD
Kill a redlined Cavalry.

IBT: Fukushima falls. Osaka falls. Kyoto destroyed. A Dutch Army lands next to Nagasaki.

9 – 840AD
I stop here. The AI has built an army!!! That was basically the purpose of this game, the see if the AI could be “persuaded” to build armies.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/6grams-_840_AD.SAV)

I stop here. The AI has built an army!!! That was basically the purpose of this game, the see if the AI could be “persuaded” to build armies.So basically this SG is a Win? j/k

Looking at the situationa minor question pops up; why are we mining in the SW?

To mark areas that were forrested since you only get the shield bonus once.

I think it's safe to say this one's done.

Would be better to irrigate grassland for that purpose, food is not affected by corruption. And the workers that really triggered my question was two workers mining a hill and that is just a waste IMHO.

bahh, a nasty loss. i wanted to fight and defeat AI armies, not be crushed by them :lol:

anyone want another go or do we just bury this one?

I could go either way. If the rest of the team is willing, so am I.

I would be willing to try again, but if we're going at deity, maybe consider going with an agricultural civ.

If you want to see more AI armies.. perhaps remove the need for victorious army to build heroic epic, and make that spawn an army every 25 turns aswell? :)

I'm afraid that I'm not joining any new SGs probably until we hit the heights of summer due to mounting pressures in RL that mean that I will soon only be able to play games sporadically. I want to play in the next SGOTM and anything more than this would be an overcommitment. I don't want to let anyone down so I'll pull out now so that you can find a replacement before the re-roll.

Good luck in the new game-I'll be lurking. Maybe I'll see some of you again for a game in July!

I could go either way as well.

I think that in the last game we had two major set backs:
The 1st: lack of iron. that was a real pain that we could not overcome.
The 2nd: killer AI at our door step. that one we could have overcome if it was the only problem.

ok, i'll setup a new thread tomorrow night. we'll just continue with the same order, so I'll play the 1st 20 turns, then KB, etc.

as far as difficulty goes, i'd like to do demigod. i'm in a retro mood so I vote for the Egypts or Romans. Feel free to suggest others (please place your votes, highest one wins :) )

I'm also going to increase the water % from 60 to 70% so the later turns don't take as long.

sound ok?

I never played Egypt in an SG, so that sounds ok.

Both Egypt and Rome are tempting. I tend to like the Legion a lot better than War Chariots, but that can leave us in a real pickle if we have an iron deficiency again. Egypt can dominate with what are essentially cheap horsemen, so long as the terrain allows it. I'm game for either.

7grams is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2743770#post2743770) . Please check in when you can :)