As discussed here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114827) this will be my first Sid game. We'll play until we win, we have no prior knowledge of the maps other than the starting tiles, so we'll see whether it's playable as we are going. The starts selected are moderately good but all settings are random, including barbarians. The only things fixed are:

mapsize: standard
AI aggression: lowest

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/P-England1.JPG

The roster:
Ainwood
Bed_head7
Karasu
Mad-bax
Northern Pike
Space

Note that the roster is alphabetic still, I'll adjust this when needed. I'll post the save when we've agreed on the starting strat and player. :)

So, my first thoughts about this start are:

1. Lots of shields available in the future.
2. Move SE and settle on the hill on the river and the coast, the forest can be used for a chop when needed.
3. Scout the south first, the west later, build an early curragh.

Top idea getting me first-up, where the turns are really, really short! :D

I'll try to play tonight. :)

You would need a save in that case, no...? :D

So, my first thoughts about this start are:

1. Lots of shields available in the future.
2. Move SE and settle on the hill on the river and the coast, the forest can be used for a chop when needed.
3. Scout the south first, the west later, build an early curragh.

By "Move SE", you must mean straight east? That sounds about right. The worker should go onto the cow first to give us a little more information.

It's nice to see that my phrasing gave this game its title. ;)

By "Move SE", you must mean straight east?

Indeed, I always have trouble with the projection. :blush:

And you're right too about the worker moving first, you never know, we might get another bonus food for that factory you mentioned in the other thread.

edit: I'll attach the 4000BC save, with the request to only move the worker and post the picture, please, Ainwood. We can discuss a bit further using that extra info. You might want to find out and report which other civs are in this game.

Space,I guess it cost much time for you to generate so many starts.Your husband complained about your civ playing?And you're Dutch,right?

Err... yes I'm Dutch. What does that have to do with anything?

In fact it didn't cost that much time to genarate those starts, thanks to Mapfinder. That comment you mentioned was about the day I finished cotm10, that took a little longer than expected.

Here I am :D and looking forward to this game.

So... The worker to the cow? Or the hill?

Anyway: While we're waiting, our rivals are:

Mongols
French
Spanish
Dutch
Romans
Americans
Persians


Here's hoping the mongols, romans and persians are a long, long way away!

Edit: We're on the coast, so the hill SE won't tell us much, but how about the hill to the SW? Can still get the cow the following turn.

Worker to cow. Definitely.

Well, I like the use of words like "Definitely"! :D

Its given us another BG, which is always nice. I don't really see anything that is significant enough for us to divert from this original plan. Should I go ahead and slap-down a city? I presume we want to irrigate this cow.


Actually - why don't we settle to the NE? Still get a hill (defence), still get 3 BG, a cow and a forest. But most attackers are likely to come from the south, and this gives us a river for defence. Downside is wasted worker and unit moves crossing the river.

I am all for some slapping and irrigating.

Settling where we are will give us more shields on the long run. I wanted to create a spreadsheet to compute the biggest size (ie whether we can actually generate all those shields), but I haven't done that yet...

I wouldn't really care about the defensive position of the capital. If you're attacked early on, you're toast anyway. I'd guess you go for Writing at min, so all you have are Warriors...that won't cause the Mongolian or Roman starting units any headaches.
NE seems a bit too much water. On spot looks fine to me.

While moving E will escape from the Tundra tile NW in the fog

I'm here! :D

Been busy over Easter. Wonder if I'll get a turn. :mischief:

There is something to be said for moving east: we'll create space for a second city on the river.

From this point of view, we could the found our capital 1SW, which is a very slightly more central position.
That is, assuming that we are going for a tight build and that we want to move the settler.
I mean, we get three cities along that river instead of two at the cost of our first turn. I cannot really get the feeling whether it is worth or not, and -other than this- I do not see any compelling reason not to settle on the spot.

I think we need to stay on the coast to get an early curragh out, so I'm not fond of 1SW. Currently I think settling on the spot is the best option.

The downside to settling on the spot is wasting a BG. Also, we do want to be on the coast for the seafaring bonus.

{Cross-post with Space and Ainwood. Great minds think alike. :D}

1. We can't found on our starting tile! It's BG. :nono:

2. Founding on the hill to the NE would cost our capital a grassland tile, and I don't think we can afford this in a food-poor position.

3. The idea of cramming another city onto the hill SW of our starting point may well be the right one, but founding our capital on the hill to the E wouldn't stop us from doing this later; and the city which can build curraghs should come first.

4. So, I think we should build our capital on the hill directly E of our settler's present location.

5. Yes, we should irrigate the cow, to get to +4 food though +5 is impossible.

The downside to settling on the spot is wasting a BG. Also, we do want to be on the coast for the seafaring bonus.
The spot the settler is at is on coast...
The shield from the BG is only wasted while below size 7.

The spot the settler is at is on coast...
That was in response to Karasu's suggestion to head inland.

Right, mates. I had missed the BG under our Settler. I am convinced. Let's go East!

OK - so the only reamining issue ( :ack: ) is build queue and research. We will need a warrior straight-away for exploration, and working a cow we'll be at +3 then +4 food, which means we'll grow to size 2 in about 6 turns - only one born content remember, so MP or lux will be required. Being commercial and seafaring, I <think> this means we get at least 3 and maybe four gold in the capital, plus another on the cow, so I suggest we use the first warrior for MP, then consider a second for exploration and then a curragh.

We have pottery, so might want to consider getting a granary fairly quickly.

As for research: Writing at minimum? It has a raw cost of 480, and even if we get +4 GPT on it, it will make zero impact. I presume that we'll be beaten to the philosophy slingshot :D

France, Spain, Netherlands and Rome all start with alphabet, which is a pain. They'll probably go for something like bronze-working first-up, but won't take them long. Hopefully they don't have early contact to keep the tech-pace managable.

I vote for curragh before warrior for exploration.

I vote for curragh before warrior for exploration.
Curragh first-up? Or warrior -> Curragh -> warrior?

I almost always build a curragh first. It is an improved scout without hut popping abilities. Which, at this level, simply makes it an improved scout as huts do nothing. We'll probably be settling a lot coastal anyway, and London's border expansions will give us a decent view of where we might stick our second city. For this reason, I almost never build an early scouting warrior. If we knew for sure that the landform was archipelago or continents with lots of water, I would probably try to convince you that the early scouting warrior is unnecessary. Of course, this is just my preference for opening play, and few play in the same style as I do.

I vote for a curragh before warrior too, it just is a quicker unit 2 moves vs 1 and the land we're on suggests it too, IMHO.

OK - what about research? Writing on min?

For us, curragh is actually three moves.

Writing on min seems like the only decent option, though the odds of getting it first are slim to none. It seems like everyone else always get it when there are four or five turns left.

I agree with Writing at minimum and a curragh first. Exploration by sea is far more important than by land, since our neighbours on this continent will introduce themselves quickly enough. :rolleyes:

I like the idea of an early granary too, but since I'm used to playing Sid on islands my experience may not be relevant here. Perhaps we need more discussion of this point.

Settle on the spot. Losing a turn on Sid is like losing a tempo against a grandmaster in chess. On the upside... we wouldn't live to regret it. ;)

Full of the joys of spring today. :D
Now... who else can I upset?

I agree with Writing and curragh - warrior with delayed land exploration.

And I knew that someone would come to revive our 'where do we settle' discussion... I also knew that this individual had been lurking and waiting just long enough for us to believe the point "settled"... :p
So -do you really think that losing the first turn makes so big a difference? On general grounds, settling east seems the better option, even if there is no such thing as an extra food bonus to make it obvious. And in general one can make up for the lost turn -but I have never played Sid.

Generally speaking I am in favour of building a Granary before the first settler, as that avoids dropping back to pop 1. Then of course it depends on the cases.
If we do some scouting with a second warrior, and that reveals another bonus nearby, then it may be worth going for a settler first.

My vote's for east now too. Maybe we'll get to play one of my more favorite starts that way... :p

For techs: we are likely to get beaten to Writing but we hopefully can afford it by then, I suggest we buy it as soon as it's out there and start Lit. I think we stand a better chance to get that one first.

OK - I will play later today: Settle east (Sorry MB!), curragh then warrior. Irrigate cow, then road it. Writing on min. We'll use the slider to keep the peace (for now).

4000 BC:
Worker to cow. After discussion, its agreed that settler will go east and settle on the hill. Settler move reveals whale and gold that we'll get after expansion. :thumbsup:

3950 BC:
Start irrigating the cow.
Found capital, start curragh. Consider spending first turn workng forest to get an extra shield - saves a turn on the curragh, and best to do it before irrigation is finished. But means we lose one gold, and will waste lots of food and two shields when growing to size 2.
Start writing on minimum, and we are netting +4GPT.

3900 BC:

3850 BC:

3800 BC:

3750 BC:
Finish irrigation, start road.
Extra food means growth in two, but (unfortunately) we'll waste 3 shields on the curragh. Carrying-on as planned will mean:
3750 grow in 2, Curragh 8/15
3700 grow in 1, Curragh 10/15
3650 grow to 2, Curragh 14/15
3600 4 food. Curragh complete, 3 shields wasted.
3550 7 food. Warrior 4/10
3500 11 food. Warrior 7/10
3450 15 food. Warrior 10/10

Switching to warrior now means
3750 grow in 2, Warrior 8/10
3700 grow in 1, Warrior Complete (no waste)
3650 grow to 2, Curragh 4/15
3600 3 food. Curragh 8/15.
3550 6 food. Curragh 12/15.
3500 10 food. Curragh Complete (no waste).

Ie - we save a turn on the curragh/warrior combo.

3700:
Complete warrior, start curragh.
Warrior goes south.

3650
Capital grows. I up lux to 10 to prevent riot.

3600:
Road complete. I decide that next target should be BG to SW - outside cultural boundary at the moment, but is workable following expansion. Is on a river (+1 gold) and makes river crossing for subsequent units leaving the capital "free" once roaded.
Warrior to volcano and finds another nice city location! Cow and a few BGs.

3550:
Start mining BG. Switch production so curragh wastes no shields.
Warrior sees barb camp - its got two units on it already (raging?)

IT: Someone attacks the barb (and wins)! We must have close neighbours!
Capital: curragh => warrior.

3500 BC:
Curragh goes east, and locates some incense.

3450 BC:
Capital expands.
Curragh finds what may be another land-mass across a coastal stretch. Decide that a second curragh might be a good move, as we are going to lose shields on the overrun.

3400 BC:
Meet mongols. They already have 3 cities, bronze working, warrior code, ceremonial burial and 25 gold.
For 4GPT and 56 gold, he won't sell anything. Welcome to sid....

3350 BC:
London grows again, so I up taxes.
Curragh is exploring the new land-mass.

3300 BC:
London complete curragh, starts warrior. MM to get warrior in 2.
Send curragh east, but that's a mistake - the first one was going to explore the new land, and the second the home continent. Turns-out that the new land is an island.

3250 BC:
Finish mine, start road.
Warrior spots goody-hut and yellow border.

3200 BC:
Finish warrior, start another. Knock-back tax to 10%.
Decide to ignore goody-hut.

3150 BC:
Curragh finds spain. They have same techs as mongols, excepth they don't have pottery. Swap pottery & 68 gold for bronze working.

3100 BC:
Meet france (4 cities). Mongols get the wheel, france has masonry.
Complete warrior, start settler (can be swapped for granary maybe?) Lux back to zero.
Complete road, move to next BG.
Mongols have ivory.


3050 BC:
Tweak taxes again - capital has grown.

3000BC:
France has workers for sale.

And a screenie of the most interesting lands...

French are in the NW, spain in the SE apparently...

Well started! :goodjob:

A few first reactions:
- We have room for expansion :thumbsup:
- Mongols have Ivory = dangerous
- We're on continents or pangaea
- We should be able to take at least the Incense
- Use the settler to grab that cow?

@Ainwood: when you save the picture as JPG first and resize after that, the lettering will stay readable.

Thanks for the JPG tip. :goodjob:

RE the: We can get one out fairly quickly, or we can build a granary. I'd like granary, but think that maybe we need to move faster, so started the settler (knowing full-well that we'd be able to discuss this between turnsets).

Grabbing the incense should be the target for the 4th / 5th city as well.

I opened the savejust now, and here's something I hadn't noticed in the screenie (purple borders!):

:eek: How did I miss that? I think it might have been hidden by the CivAssist alerts window - I had it in that part of the screen (as viewed from the centered capital). ANyway - that's the french - it was in that direction that the curragh saw a couple of roaming warriors.

Maybe it's smart to manouver the French between us and the Mongols anyway. We just haven't got as much room as it looked before. Seeing where the curraghs are, this could well be a true pangaea!

A little bit crowded, isn't it?

And I love our capital's name :lol: :thumbsup:

EDIT: should we talk about our expansion strategy?
And whose turn is it after Ainwood? Not mine, is it? Actually, I would rather shift towards the end of the roster... :D

If we assume that food is always going to be the controlling variable, and that we're always going to keep the capital at +4 food (it's at +3 now, BTW), then without a granary we'll produce a settler 3 turns from now and then every 10 turns. If we switch immediately to a granary, we'll produce a settler in 12 turns, and every 6 turns after that. The break-even point would be just the third settler, built in 23 turns without a granary and in 24 turns with one, a difference which is certainly within the margin of error of my assumptions. So the math, as usual, favours the building of a granary first; and I think we have to do it. Obviously this will look like a bad idea if someone else claims the southern cow in about ten turns, but my feeling is that at Sid it's important to keep one's nerve, play in the way that makes sense in the long term, and take the consequences philosophically if it doesn't work. :crazyeye:

If we get to the southern cow in time, we'll face a difficult choice between founding where the cow is in our city's first ring and founding on the river, so we should start thinking about it now.

You make sense, as usual, NP.

If we stick to the alphabetical sequence, the roster is:
Ainwood: just played
Bed_head7: up
Karasu: on deck

I'll come back with more thoughts tonight.

Alrighty. I'll come back with some comments later, and save this for tomorrow to give everyone time to share any ideas.

lurker comment: With 2 civs that close on Sid I fear you will not have time for the granary. Grab what you can now and ICS backfill. You will have to fight your way out of this one. At least you will have an ally. Good Luck (you'll need it).

lurker comment: With 2 civs that close on Sid I fear you will not have time for the granary.

This could certainly be true. In fact, French and Mongol settlement could make our situation plainly hopeless in ten or twenty turns regardless of our choice. But I'd rather gamble on the best case--that we should build a granary and still claim the obvious sites to the south and east--because I doubt that any lesser outcome will give us a viable position. And as I mentioned above, the break-even point on the granary--just three settlers or twenty-four turns--is tantalizingly close.

When we weigh both the options we need to take the cities the settlers create into account too. The third settler is about at equal time, but the cities the first two found will be productive sooner. I think it makes sense to initially spread the cities out a bit, because we will be in building mode the first part of the game. I guess we just have to act spineless the first part of the game and let the AI walk all over us. Giving in to demands will help us survive. Hopefully all the AI have room ebough to expand to their OCN. This will hopefully cause them to ignore us.

When we're a bit established we should try to set up a phony war. If this really is pangaea we should be able to select a far away civ and have a few AI between them and us. It's imperative that we have something to trade by then. Soooo, I guess our first goal should be luxes. It's bad that the incense is a single. The furs up north are double IIRC but far away...

The other point is that if we build a settler now, then a granary, we may catch-up again on settler production.

3000 BC (0) - Switch to granary. We may as well give it a shot.

2950 BC (1) - Meet the Dutch.

2850 BC (3) - Switch to 4fpt, as it gets growth in 2 without waste as opposed to growth in 3 with 1f wasted. And, as far as I can tell, we get granary in 4 more turns either way.

2670 BC (7) - Granary completes, begin settler.

Settler in one. We're down all visible except for Writing. I looked desperately for a decent twofer, but there was never an available trade where we'd get our money's worth.

I was thinking we might want to build another settler immediately to get our capital a little smaller, build a barracks, a settler, and then do a combo factory. We can do 6 turn spear/settler at size 5, which is definitely something to consider. We may actually be able to claim a decent amount of land, albeit it rather unproductive and cold. Maybe I am being optimistic. Of course, there is also the problem with implementing the factory, as we only have two warriors, but there are barbarian horsemen running around now. We can always hope that the AI will take care of the barbs for us, though.

I would make a dotmap or something, but that isn't really my strength.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3_2550BC.jpg

Well, we're getting away with the granary build so far. :goodjob:

I was thinking we might want to build another settler immediately to get our capital a little smaller, build a barracks, a settler, and then do a combo factory. We can do 6 turn spear/settler at size 5, which is definitely something to consider.

I'm not sure about the timing--taking a break from settlers after just the second seems too soon--but basically this is an excellent idea.

Timing would be difficult. I hate regular units though, and was trying to find a way to avoid building too many. Going settler-settler-warrior-settler-barracks-settler-spear-settler might be a better way to go. I doubt we'll have that much room to settle, though. I'll give the math a look later, after actually doing my math homework, which I keep putting off to play.

Hmm. I can't check the math -not now anyway, I am barely awake... ;)

But the decision seems hard, at a first impression: I hate building regulars too, and a combo factory would be very nice. On the other hand, breaking the flow of settlers for the required barracks seems very awkward rigth now.

EDIT: thinking a little more about it, maybe starting the barracks after the third or fourth settler might be ok. We could pull out a settler or two from the other cities in case at that point if we see that there is still some land to take... After that, we will probably need to concentrate on units anyway.

But then, maybe I just had better go to sleep and shut up :ack:

And -which is probably the most pressing question right now: where will that settler go? The cow is very tempting, but a little far in my opinion. It might even be the case to ignore it and try to build two or three cities closer to our capital, and/or go for the luxuries.

The cow is a bit far. I was thinking one NW of the Mongol archer in the picture, and then maybe on that tundra tile to the NW of our capital, or maybe towards the incense.

I don't think the southern cow is too far at all. If we can't expand that modest distance both to the south and the east, what kind of position are we going to have? In any case, that volcano makes it hard to see where a nearer southern city could go. It looks to me as though we should found our second city directly to the cow's south, and our third probably two tiles to the cow's northeast.

If you gentlemen are concerned about keeping a defensible position, remember that we're pinning our hopes for survival on low aggression settings and heartfelt grovelling. ;) If the AI civs come for us early, it won't matter where our cities are.

I was starting to do the math, and opened up the save again to check things out. It occured to me that trying to do anything five turns ahead, or even one turn, is probably not going to work out with a barbarian horseman on our doorstep, and undoubtedly there are more on the way. It might even be a good idea to keep luxury higher than is necessary, as I have had barbarians occupy tiles I was using throw eveything off and result in civil disorder.

You are right, NP -in terms of expansion, that distance should be well within our borders, and I wasn't thinking so much in terms of defense as of logistics.
Actually, I didn't want to imply that we should completely foget that cow -as my previous post seems to suggest: I would temporarily ignore it in favour of a closer initial build, in order (mainly) to reduce settler and workers moves.

I usually tend to expand outwards, but this may well be a case for a different approach.


Regarding the barbs, hopefully the horseman is going to die attacking our capital, and the Mongol Archer seems to be going to take care of the warrior.
We do need a little military, though...

I've learned from playing GOTM that barbs rarely attack unless they have numbers, in which case they overwhelm the city. If not, they pillage generally.

Sorry to have been silent for a while, but this weekend we're enjoying a very rare spell of summer weather here, so I'm outside most of the time. :cool:

On the sunny beaches of Noordwijk-an-zee? ;)

On the sunny beaches of Noordwijk-an-zee? ;)

There should be a bikini smily! ;)

on topic:
I've attached a dotmap, but I can't really choose actually.
Red dot:
+ on the river
- too close to the purple border
Purple dot:
+ on the river
- next to the vulcano
Green dot:
+ can be reached in two turns, on the coast
- no fresh water, cowds the capital
Blue dot:
+ gets the lux, on the coast
- no fresh water, no food until harbour and/or cultural expansion

I've though about moving the Green south, but that'ld put it next to the vulcano...

He probably went to Scheveningen! The most hardest pronounced cityname for foreigners in Holland.

When we dutchmen go on holidays we always make the local population try to say it. After that we laugh because it sounds like someone vomiting. It's a sadistic joke thats coded in every dutchmens DNA!

Game on! hehe

On more thing:

Don't be misled about the seemingly empty map, that info is from when the scout went by, there could be cities there now!

@Hookmonkey: In this particular case things are a bit different.

As a reminder and a question

The roster:
Ainwood
Bed_head7 <- just played
Karasu <- UP (but unrooted too, in need of a skip?)
Mad-bax <- On deck (UP if Karasu can't play)
Northern Pike
Space

@Space - I think cities get shown in explored-but-not-visible locations; its only the tiles improvements that are not shown.

I'd try cities on purple, green, and then blue (moved 1 NE). 3 tiles away for quick defense and 2 of the 3 have the seafaring coastal gold benefit. While the volcano is there, on Sid, you've gotta take your chances! Bona fortuna, Britannia!

I can play tomorrow if required, though I would prefer Tuesday.

Green looks difficult to hook up.
Purple is on a volcano
Blue looks very difficult to hook up.

...So red for me.

Barb horses on turn 20. Nice. :)

I can try to play tomorrow -if I can't make it by tomorrow evening, then yes I will need a skip.

I would consider two options:
1. Settle close to the capital. In this case, I would go towards Red (but what about moving it 1N?)
2. Go straight towards the southern cow (1S of the cow, as NP said), and backfill.

Depending on what barbs do, I would try to keep building settlers for a while. The second city may give us one or two military units before committing to a building -they will be regular, but it seems that there will be training opportunities with barbs...

Hm, on reflexion, maybe we *should* try to get that spot NP indicated. This will get us more cities in the long run. The settler can reach it in 6 tuns. Maybe we will even be able to get the third city founded in that same turn (depending on where we want it).

My concern about Space's proposed sites is that even if we settled all three of them (rejecting purple dot due to the volcano), we'd place very few bonus tiles within our borders before cultural expansion. I'd suggest the following sites--to be settled in 1-2-3 order, ideally--which would give us a cow, sugar, three BG, and incense without expansion.

I'm not opposed on principle to a tight settlement pattern at Sid. But in this game there are just a lot of factors--the nearby French city, the volcano, the distribution of boni--which militate against it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-2550BC.JPG

Ehm... I couldn't even switch on my laptop today. :ack:

So I guess it is MB's time now. Good luck, folks. I will disappear between tomorrow and Wednesday, to reappear hopefully on the 11th. Cheers!

Good luck, Karasu, I hope all goes according to plan for you!

>>THE SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3-2070BC.SAV)


2550BC: Pre-turn.

All OK. Press Enter.

Barb horse steps onto the cattle tile. The loss of revenue causes our capital to riot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-2550BC-hit_return.jpg

2510BC:
The only way I can see to save the worker is to kill the barb horseman. I do that at the expense of 1 HP.
I can't use the second warrior to cover the worker because it will leave the capitol without a garrison, so the worker has to run away to the forest.

That's pretty much game over I think.
Meet the Netherlands. They have every tech we can see of course, except writing.

IBT:
Horse attacks warrior and loses.
AEO Settler - Settler

2470BC:
Don't know what to do with the worker now. I decide to road the unroaded mine.
The world have learned writing.

2430BC:
Uneventful.

IBT:
One of our Curraghs is sunk by a barb galley.

2350BC:
Uneventful

IBT
AEO Settler - rax

2310BC:
Decide to road the forest since we will use it 2 out of 3 turns.

2270BC:
Curragh finds another continent.
HAve to move our vet warrior out to cover the new settler since a barb has appeared.

2230BC:
Found York - warrior.
See a hut. I might pop it just for a laugh. :joke: We would get barbs of course.
Island appears deserted. :hmm:

2150BC:
Uneventful:

IBT:
AEO rax - settler

2110BC:
Uneventful

IBT:
The pyramids are completed in Rome.

2070BC:
Uneventful.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not up to this game. I've played pretty solidly I think, but the first inter-turn ruined the slim chance we had.

I would scrap this game and try one of the other starts personally.

Got it.

This is the first response in thirteen hours or so since MB's post. Are we going to have discussion, or should I just play?

I don't really have anything to say that I don't already know that you'd do.

I didn't get a thread notification e-mail. :hmm:

Am at work, so can't really check the save, and there are not even any screenshots. Will look tonight, but I have no problems with you just playing it (and settling by the cow ;))

I didn't get a thread notification e-mail. :hmm:

This function has been failing for players in other SG's as well.

Sorry, I'm pressed for time lately.Yes, we need discussion, IMO. I'll make this my priority tonight (in about 8 hours).

Sorry about not posting screenshots, but I am very limited this week. I only have net connectio at work and I am sitting shoulder to shoulder with my boss. :(

No problem, MB. Here's the screenshot. In the red oval it is a French settler-pair on its way to our incense...

This threads' title doesn't give us an option to do anything but play on. :thumbsup: :D
The good news is that writing is not known yet. That is probably due to no contact with the other continent. The current status shows the Dutch are biggest in pop (15%) and France in territory (6%). The power graph doesn't look too bad yet... and I think we should be able to manage some more cities down south. I'd say let's stick to the current plan for the time being.

1750 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-1750BC.SAV)

2070 (0): The Mongols complete the Oracle.


1990 (2): Our curragh reaches more offshore land, of unknown extent, in the south.

Oddity settler --> settler.


1950 (3): The French found Dijon on what we'd hoped would be our incense.


1910 (4): York warrior --> warrior.


1870 (5): Our curragh has so far discovered two southern islands, one of one tile and one of about nine.

The French are building the Statue of Zeus and the Dutch are building the Great Lighthouse.


1830 (6): The French found Cherbourg, and we're blocked off to the northwest as well.

Oddity settler --> settler.


1750 (8): Our curragh has no further prospects in the far south, and has to start backtracking.

This is the fiftieth turn of the game even though it's just the eighth of my round, so to even things up I'll stop here. Some discussion is necessary anyway, in particular about the Great Library.

It looks as though the best we can do now is to settle the two southeastern sites indicated in the screenshot. They aren't great locations, but the cities would be immune to cultural pressure from presently existing enemy towns after one cultural expansion (which wouldn't be the case if we founded city 1 on the river, unfortunately). Perhaps city 2 should go one tile farther to the southeast--it's a close call.

I have Nottingham working on a granary as a Great Library pre-build, though the town can still switch to anything without loss of shields if the team doesn't like this idea. I don't know a lot about building the GL in a non-archipelago Sid game, but I have the impression that it's sometimes possible provided the Library is the second or third city's first build. In any event, our difficult situation inclines me towards the gamble, since it doesn't look as if we're going to have a position worth playing without the GL. If we want to try this, we'll need to make Literature our next fifty-turn tech target even though it's highly probable that the other civs will discover it well before that.

As soon as York produces a warrior to garrison Nottingham, we may be able to reduce our currently excessive luxury rate--although York will soon reach size three, of course.... :rolleyes:

York should build a worker after the warrior.

The closing frontier:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-1750BC.JPG

Yes, I would agree that it's imperative to try for the GL in this position. ATM we have nothing else going for us except our combined experience. The city that builds it should grow to stand a chance but this will also mean we have to have the lux slider high all the time. OTOH this will diminish the possibility of demands. ;)

Does the world know Writing btw?

Does the world know Writing btw?

Yes, and Map Making beyond it. :sad: Really to benefit from starting with Alphabet at Sid one has to select an entire roster of opponents who don't start with it, though I know that this team is above such cynical tricks. :jesus:

:lol: A really Saint-like bunch...

But seriously, aren't you curious to see whether this level can be won without the settler factory/non-alphabet-AI/archipelago combination?

We can try of course. It's what I signed up to do. But a turn of disorder, getting the settler out late, losing half a dozen worker turns and a curragh is a lot of bad luck in a few turns so early in a game. We can keep playing of course - you never know your luck until you tread in it.

But seriously, aren't you curious to see whether this level can be won without the settler factory/non-alphabet-AI/archipelago combination?

To be sure; the occasional nostalgic comment about the way I play Sid in solo games doesn't mean I'm not interested in this objective. :D

I'm so glad that we have teammembers who has any experience with Sid at all.... :D even more so when played solo! :worship: My solo games currently are done in the lower regions of the levels to fill up a myriad of empty HoF tables. :blush:

:)

To have any chance at the Great Library, we'll need to get Nottingham to size six, with a full complement of mined tiles, as soon as possible. Fortunately, with a decent settler factory which apparently won't be needed for its original purpose much longer, we're in a good position to do this. I have our capital building another settler, and if there doesn't seem to be anywhere for it to settle by the time it's reached Nottingham--which is all too likely--we should just merge it into the city. After that Oddity can produce workers every 2-3 turns until we have enough to pump Nottingham up to size six and quickly develop six of its tiles. Military units don't matter much at this point, except for MP purposes.

Of course, we must not chop down Nottingham's forest, or the town will have tainted shields and we won't be allowed to switch it to a Wonder build.

We'll need Masonry soon for the palace pre-build. It's hard to know whether we should buy it immediately (for about 190 gold) or wait in the hope that contact with new civs will reduce its price. Perhaps we should wait until either the granary pre-build is about to complete, or the first quantity of gold is extorted away from us.

I think we should push the principle of using workers from the capital to pump up our other cities a long way, even after Nottingham has reached size six. Since we're going to be playing much of the Ancient Age with just 4-6 cities, we need to get them performing at their maximum quickly.

Keeping a size-6 city happy with only 2 military police isn't going to be easy... We need a couple of luxuries, or its going to cost us a fortune in the luxury rate.

Don't quit! You guys can do this!

Thanks for your (possibly misguided ;)) faith in us.

Space, I don't think you've said "got it" in as many words. Do you know you're up?

Thanks for reminding me, I hadn't checked who was up yet. I got it now...! ;)

I think I have time to play tomorrow night, I'll try post a plan tomorrow morning before I take the family for a swim and you guys can comment before I play.

OK, so in short the plan is:

- Let Oddity (:)) produce 1 more settler, then switch to workers to get Nottingham up to speed.

- Switch to Literature when Writing comes in.

- Buy Masonry before the Granary pre-build completes (and hopefully before the first demands).

- Keep York on Warriors for military policing both Nottingham and York.

- Use all lucky charms I can get my hands on...

Anything else?

That sounds good. We also hope to found two cities with our existing settlers, of course.

Once Nottingham reaches size six, we'll want to have it working six two-shield tiles, even though this will mean depriving nearby cities of boni. A half-hearted GL drive has no chance of success.

Pre-turn
Press enter :)

IT
Isabella orders us to leave, we do.
Writing comes in, start Literature.
Hmm, embassies will help attitude but we need the money for Masonry later, so I'll leave that for later.

1725BC - turn 1
Move the settlers a step futher south.
Send the dispelled warrior east.

IT
York Warrior -> Warrior

1700BC - turn 2
Settler arrives at spot nr.1
The new Warrior want relocation to Nottingham, I agree!
Oddity grows our gpt jumps from 2gpt to a staggering 3gpt. :lol:

IT
Oddity Settler -> Worker

1675BC - turn 3
Found Hastings, start Worker (this can be changed a Warrior *could* keep the AI at bay, but we need workers badly). We beat a Dutch settler pair to it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP03-Hastings.JPG

Oddity will not grow for a while so the worker is sent down south too.

IT
The Dutch pair step boldly on our turf! Elisabeth doesn't like it, but the foreign minister manages to devide her attention by showing off the new-found city.
Another French settler pair shows up.

1650BC - turn 4
The warrior arrives at Nottingham but the lux slider has to stay put since York
is size three now. I decide to switch builds to Worker. We need to go all out in the weasel scenario anyway.

IT
The Dutch leave, but France enter a second pair. The available land is almost
gone, so things might heat up from here.
Oddity Worker -> Warrior

1625BC - turn 5
I probably messed up Oddity, it can't grow in 2 now so I start a Warrior instead. :(
Settler arrives at spot nr.2

IT
The Dutch are in a loop: they enter again. The two French setller pairs split
up.
York Worker -> Warrior

1600BC - turn 6
The lux slider can come back to 10% for a couple of turns.
Found Canterbury, start Warrior.
Buy Masonry from Spain this turn (185g), I'm just too worried about extortions
and I can't really see our Currgh finding new land ATM.
Switch Nottingham to Palace.

IT
The Dutch and Spain order us out, both are Polite.
Oddity Warrior -> Worker

1575BC - turn 7
Worker on the cow starts mine. Two other workers move onto a BG.
Now we have to make a decision:
Either: we merge the settler in Nottingham,
Or: we found another city on the blue or red dot.
I lean towards merging, what do you guys figure?

Well, we need all the land we can get. I am inclined to go for red and squeeze another city SE of Hastings. That way we can keep income up a bit longer. I also prefer workers for joining, as two workers cost 20s, and one settler costs 30s.

I think we should merge, because
We need to go all out in the weasel scenario anyway
describes our situation perfectly. :rotfl: The inefficiency noted by Bed Head doesn't bother me much in this situation, because soon enough--given the few city improvements we know, and unit costs--our problem is going to be finding helpful builds, not building as much as possible.

About red dot and blue dot, I have two reactions:

1. We may be able to wait a while and still settle one of them, because the AI seems to be erratic in what it does about gaps as small as the one between Canterbury and Choybalsan, but

2. We may not want to settle either site, because then a domino effect of flips will become possible--first the new city, then Canterbury--whereas in the present situation there'll be no flip risk on that flank once Hastings and Canterbury get cultural expansions.

There probably isn't a big rush to get those, as they may never be settled by the AI. The point about the flips is one I did not consider, and perhaps does make those sites more of a bother more than anything else.

The reason I suggested it though is that I don't really see us getting the Great Library. I missed out on it in a far better site in my Sid trial, and I don't really see us getting it here. In my opinion, we'll have to dig ourselves out of the tech hole the old fashioned way, unless of course the 7+1 method presents itself to us at some point.

The reason I suggested it though is that I don't really see us getting the Great Library

I agree that our chances are less than 50%, but they aren't zero, and what else is worth trying in this position? With or without a couple of extra squeezed-in towns, there isn't much hope in this situation if we can't leapfrog into the Middle Ages with the GL.

I think on Pangaea there actually is hope. I would put GL somewhere between 0-10%, not 0-50%. Even if Literature is a late tech, there are only so many to choose from and eventually it will be researched, and once that happens. Well, you know what happens.

Anyway, falling an age behind in tech is not a tragedy. There are always options still open when in a tech whole. So, let's give it a shot, but I would rather not put off production of more workers and more land now.

Hmmm, sounds like a stand-off on this issue to me... :lol:

There's still another thing to consider. If we use the settler for a new city on one of the dots, we can collect some gold in the next few turns since the lux slider can remain where it is. We need to buy Lit somewhere along the line so we're going to need some later.

Hmmm, sounds like a stand-off on this issue to me... :lol:

Well, there are still three votes outstanding. Ainwood? Karasu? MB? :groucho:

---------> THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP03_1500BC.sav)

1575BC - turn 7, continued
In the light of that last remark (ze money.... what did you expect, female AND Dutch! :lol: ) I've decided to try to settle the red dot.

IT
The Mongols want us out, they are Polite.

1550BC - turn 8
Oddity grows and the lux slider goes to 20%. Oddity need to be MM-ed to get an extra gold (man, do we waste shields! :()
Our Curragh explores the Dutch sandy beaches. :cool:

IT
Here come the extortions: Polite Isabella wants 21g from her good friend Elly. She wants her to 'be glad' that she 'decided to be gentle about this'. :rolleyes:
Oddity Worker -> Worker

1525BC - turn 9
Slider can come down to 10% for a while again. In two turns it needs to go up and stay there the mine on the BG will be ready and one of the workers can be merged then.

IT
I did not mention the various wonder build notifications but this time I will: Mongols and Dutch start ToA, Mongols start Great Wall. One French Settler pair heads for the red-dot-spot! Surely they will not settle there.. :hmm:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP03-1500BC.JPG

1500BC - turn 10
Try to persuade the French to head back West again, using the Warrior that came back from scouting.
Literature is not around yet, we've 41 turns to go. I haven't merged any workers yet, but 2 will finish a mine next turn, a fresh one is arriving in two, it can start a mine on one of the other BGs. When the mine completes remember to put the citizen on the BG instead of the forest it's working now.

Well, there are still three votes outstanding.
Karasu is not around yet AFAIK, and the others have been online I think, so they probably have no string feelings either way and I decided to play on anyway, we'll have to live with my choices... :)

Oops, the above link is to the JPG, not the save. :nono: The 1500 BC save is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP03_1500BC.sav). :)

In one Sid level game we got the Great Library in 540 AD. It was on a tiny map so only 3 opponents, but it definitely means getting the Library has a chance of succcess.

I once looked at the way techs work. The interesting thing is that which tech is picked is dependent on the number of turns it takes to research. Optional non-govt techs become least likely when research is very fast.

So it turns out the higher the difficulty level, the less likely the AI is to choose Lit (because it can research quickly) when it makes a tech choice.

At Sid, since the AI are getting techs faster, the AI will often research Lit fairly early. On the other hand, it can also avoid the tech and go well into the middle ages before getting to it. In the Sid game mentioned above, the AI researched Banking before Lit.

Thanks--very valuable information. :goodjob:

Oops, the above link is to the JPG, not the save. :nono:

Fixed... :)

Just to try to get in the habit agian I'll post the roster. ;)

Ainwood <----- UP now
Bed_head7 <--- On deck
Karasu
Mad-bax
Northern Pike
Space <-------- just played

Me again? Ok - "Got It".

got a game plan for me?

Build up Nottingham and after that *all* ;) our other cities to maximum capacity, they are the only asset we have. :) Find a balance between improving the land and joining .

Don't get us killed.

And what space said.

Oh, I forgot to say have fun.

If it becomes obvious that we aren't going to get the Great Library, we could buy Map Making and try to get a settler to the nearby island before the AI civs. This isn't likely to work, but we might as well keep the possibility in mind.

Sorry to have been away for so long. I vote to merge workers and put all our eggs in the GL basket. If it doesn't work we can all tattoo NP's sig on our foreheads. :)

:rotfl:

And to reach the minimum length, :lol:.

Hi all, I'm back -and I went through the thread.
This game(s) is surely a good one both to play and to read! :thumbsup:

I totally support the GL gamble. Let's go for it. And if it doesn't work, we can always try an OCC in the nearby island :D

As Found:

MM York and Nottingham to allow Nottingham to grow in one turn.

It looks like the nearby land is almost all taken - how soon before the AI turns to war...

I look at cost of embassies - it only costs 34 to get one with the mongols. They are the most aggressive, and having an embassy with them can only help to avert their ire for a few turns.... I form one. It is interesting to see the city screen for a Sid-Level AI...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/mongols.JPG

Turn 1: 1475 BC:
Spain has no less than 862 gold....
Nottingham grows to size 3. I have it working the cow. One BG is mined.
York - Warrior -> Worker.
AEO: Worker -> Warrior (Two turns only, and the city won't grow for three).

I think it might be worth roading from the capital to Nottingham - the next shield will be corrupt, and it will come when the cow has been mined. When that happens, we'll let york have it again.

See a big stack of barb horses - either someone is playing without the AI Patrol fox, or our friends are in the middle ages. Maybe they have bypassed literature?

Turn 2: 1450 BC:
Barbs ravage the dutch.
I decide to connect nottingham via road.

Turn 3: 1425BC:
AEO Warrior - worker.
Hasting worker-warrior (I think undefended cities at the end of the AI expansion phase are asking for trouble...)
Dutch complete the great lighthouse.
The cow is now mined. I MM to get an extra SPT in nottingham.

Turn 4: 1400BC
Avignon completes Statue of Zeus.
I was sending a settler to claim the last incence, but we've been beaten by the dutch and spanish border expansion.
Curragh finds clear coast across a narrow sea - but this was already open water (ear Murcia)! Why did we not investigate earlier? The spanish will beat us to it, now.
We now have trade routes with france, mognols and dutch. Pity we've nothing to trade!
AEO has grown, so we still need lux at 10%.

Turn 5: 1375 BC:
AEO Worker -> Worker.
York Worker - spear (probably pointless...)
Discover new island - the dutch already have a settler on it.


turn 6: 1350 BC:
Mongols order us out, and we get teleported to near the incense. We may get it yet (dutch did an about-face).
Canterbury Warrior -> worker.
Road completed.

Turn 7: 1325BC
AEO WOrker -> Spearman.
French complete great wall.
Merge one worker. Need 30% lux to keep them happy. Merge another, and we're up to net 8 SPT. Palace in 30, literature in 34...
This puts us at 80 Lux/turn to keep the peace - we need roaded squares!
I think we need more cities to increase the palace cost. Switch AEO to a settler, and do the same with York and canterbury.

Turn 8: 1300 BC:
We meet Rome (Polite). They don't have literature either!
Rome are fighting someone. Barbs, or another civ?

Turn 9: 1275 BC:
With roading, I can now drop lux rate back to 40%. We stop working the volcano, so its palace in 32, lit in 32.

Turn 10: 1250 BC:
Spain is in anarchy - ha! Suck! To get anarchy, they must have got a really bad RNG roll!
Spot a green border. Persia? Would explain why Rome is at war.



OK - All our rivals that we have met are in the middle ages. Suggest that this means they've bypassed literature, so our slim chances are looking margninally better.
I suggest we get a few more cities founded - OCN = 20, so, so we need to get at least 11 cities to increase the cost - we may even need 14 (can't remember). If its 11, its doable, if its 14, then we may have to choke-back on shield production in nottingham (work a zero-shield tile).

The save is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3_1250BC.SAV).

Nice exploration. I'll look into palace costs before playing. I think someone did an article on it.

I've checked the palace costs - link is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=912339&highlight=palace+cost+formula#post912339).

It appears that with OCN = 20, we need 14 cities to increase the palace cost to 400, otherwise its 300. I really don't think we can do this in the next 31 turns....

Nothing of value to report in a turnlog, so I'll give some city by city reporting.

AEO - 3/3/4fpt cycle. I generally emphasized commerce as shields are easy to come by in our capital.

Nottingham - Has a selection of mined and unmined tiles, so as we get closer to the Great Library, we can adjust as necessary. The 400s palace seemed out of reach, so I slowed down the build every time it tried to speed up.

Warwick - Stealing the mined river bg from AEO, as it doesn't usually need the shields.

All border cities - flip risks between 1% and 3%. We can't even build temples to combat this at all. Not at all pretty.

Okay, for opponents, there a few things worth noting.

First, the Mongols and French are allied against the Dutch. I haven't seen any cities change hands, which is good, but also means tech will probably continue at the current pace as the unit costs should be dropping some.

We met America, and they are in the same position as all the rest.

Sun Tzu's is in progress in a few places.

Um, some other items of interest. Let's see. Oh, incense hooked up in the most peculiar fashion. When I received the message, I was rather shocked. I guess we'll take what help we can get, though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/space3_1075BC.jpg

In my struggle to get fourteen cities, some settlers are headed to less than optimal places. In the first pic, the settler was planned to go 1S. Of course, this is up to debate, but I don't really see any other decent spot. In the second, I was thinking instead of settling a hill we go for the desert on the coast despite the higher flip risk. We will have a ton of trouble with flips either way, and once it flips from the hill then Canterbury will have a higher flip risk. The settler you can see was intended to settle on that forest on the river. Of course, even with all of this we only have ten cities, so good luck finding spots for four more.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/space3_1000BC_oddity.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/space3_1000BC_south.jpg

Well done the both you! :goodjob: The flip risk is most definitly our biggest worry now but we'll have to live with it.

Good news about the war, double good when there's no disturbence of the balance.

Founding the first city you discussed will up the corruption in Notthingham, like Warwick did, which is actually helpful to slow down the Palace build, but lowers the chances on the GL.

What are the odds we can keep Coventry? But at least we're enjoying the benefits of that lux connected now, thank you Isabella! :lol:

BTW: we still have the red/blue dot spots to fill by the looks of it (I haven't opened the save yet).

The roster:

Ainwood
Bed_head7 <--- just played
Karasu <------- UP now
Mad-bax <----- On deck
Northern Pike
Space

The red/blue dots were what I was talking about moving to the adjacent desert tile. The city can still go on one of those dots, though.

Flip risk in Conventry was estimated between 2 and 3%.

And concerning Nottingham, it will probably take 10 turns after getting lit to finish it at this point, so maybe the city there is such a good idea at the moment. Nottingham is working some lower shield tiles at the moment though, so if the prebuild falls behind lit it can be sped up again.

Curragh finds clear coast across a narrow sea - but this was already open water (near Murcia)! Why did we not investigate earlier?

Rather typically of our luck so far, our first curragh was sunk by barbs at just this spot, as I understand MB's report.

I haven't had time to look at the saves yet, but good work, Ainwood and BH [Netscape won't seem to allow me smileys].

One point of technique regarding the GL pre-build in Nottingham: at the moment we should have the palace pre-build considerably ahead of the pace at which we're going to min-research Literature, not a little behind. The danger that the palace will complete before we have Literature is trivial, and can be dealt with by adjustments in the last ten turns, or by my preferred trick of letting the pre-build city go into disorder with one turn to go on the palace. (Can rioting cause the loss of the accumulated shields? It's never happened to me, anyway.) OTOH, the chance that another civ will discover Literature before we min-research it is still substantial, and to have any chance in the race that will then result (our goal 400 shields, theirs 160) we'll need to have as many shields as possible banked in the pre-build city. So I'd run Nottingham at 10 spt after corruption--which will mean stealing two-shield tiles from York and Canterbury, but that hardly matters--for the next ten turns or so.

Um, I don't really get the reasoning behind that. I would think that as we get closer, we would adjust so that they finish at the same time. As it is, being a couple turns behind now means that the surrounding cities can use some of the better tiles around Nottingham while their own are improved. When we need to, we can speed it right back up, and have all 300 possible shields in the box.

One thing we could do as it gets closer is shoot for 396+s in the box the turn before, in case we can get to 13s in Nottingham. I am not sure that it is possible with corruption, though, so it might not be worth it.

Edit: Duh, it can't do 13spt at size 6 unless there was no corruption there. Oops.

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that we may well end up buying Literature before we're able to fifty-turn it. So if we're going to maximize our chances of getting the GL, we need to have as many shields as possible in Nottingham's box five turns from now, and ten turns from now, and so on. The situation in 21 turns when we would discover Literature by our own efforts is not all that matters.

Eep, how did I not see that that was what you were saying? I guess doing that makes sense then, though I feel the disorder trick is a bit of an exploit, especially when we do not have any improvements in the city for our angry citizens to destroy. In that case, I think we can switch some tile assignments that would result in getting 3spt extra (probably 2spt after corruption) with no effect on the other cities. I don't particularly want to open up the save now to verify, but I think Nottingham was working one unmined tile and a couple of mined regular grass, when it could work all 2s tiles if necessary (forest, cow, and BGs). So if we do want to use the disorder trick, I guess Nottingham will have to have its citizens reassigned.

I feel the disorder trick is a bit of an exploit, especially when we do not have any improvements in the city for our angry citizens to destroy.

As always, this is a personal judgement. No doubt the rest of the team will weigh in with their opinions on the point before long. [grin smiley]

True enough. I am generally much more along the RBC lines of thinking, where many things are "exploits" to me, but if I have a mental checklist and I accidentally hit enter before checking everything off, I have no moral qualms about reloading. At least I think that is close to the RBC ruleset. It has been some time since I have looked through it carefully.

I feel the disorder trick is a bit of an exploit, especially when we do not have any improvements in the city for our angry citizens to destroy

As always, this is a personal judgement. No doubt the rest of the team will weigh in with their opinions on the point before long. [grin smiley]

Indeed. :) (Mozilla is OK with smileys, maybe something for you to NP?)

I don't have problems with that, personally. The AI doesn't use it, but it doesn't use pre-builds either. Let's hope we don't need it I think we can juggle around the spt for this city if needed.

(Mozilla is OK with smileys, maybe something for you to NP?)

Ah, I'll look into that. [thank-you smiley]

@Karasu: I just realized I may have put you UP much too soon. :blush: Can you play? If not MB is UP.

None of your fault, my dear :) -I just forgot that a weekend has passed in the meantime...

Actually, I will have a busy week visiting apartments and talking with several people who are morbidly looking at my payslips...
Technically I could play, probably within three or four days, so -although quite reluctantly- I would say that yes, another skip would help me this time.

I promise I'll get in line and playing as soon as I can, though. I mean, this may end up being the first SG I take part to without playing a single turn! :eek:

MB have you seen this? You're UP. :)

@Karasu: We're not dead yet! And besides: there's a truckload of other saves ready to try. :yeah:

OK I have it. Haven't opened it yet, but assume it's OK.
Try to get GL and otherwise survive I guess.

Ho Hum. :p

@Karasu: We're not dead yet! And besides: there's a truckload of other saves ready to try. :yeah:

I know :D But after a couple dozen skips you will have this game won without me... ;)

Ho Hum. :p

Ho Hum, indeed... :D

;)

<cough>
Playing in an hour.
Will finish in about 65 minutes. :D

Travel has got in the way as usual. Launching a car can get a bit frenetic.... for other people ;)

I'm really sorry. I should have found the time to play by now but it has been quite impossible. You would think that I could find two free hours in 5 days.
I guess I will have to be skipped. It's my sisters birthday today and we have to visit her, and Monday I have a 350 mile drive on top of a 12 hour day, so I won't be home till late and will be too tired. Tuesday I fly to France in the evening after work. So it's possible I could play on Wednesday if nothing happens in the meantime.

I'm a complete PITA I know, but my life isn't my own ATM. :(

No problem, MB, how about playing after NP and myself? It should be around Wednesday or Thursday by then. :)

So:
Ainwood
Bed_head7
Karasu
Mad-bax <-- plays after Space
Northern Pike <-- Up
Space <-- on deck

Don't worry about it, MB. RL should be ignored as much as possible, but it's hard to apply the policy with 100% consistency. :D

Got it.

850 BC, round still in progress (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-850BC.SAV)

1000 (0): I won't found the projected city which (as I believe Space pointed out) would increase corruption in Nottingham, since the GL drive is our only real hope. I will found on Red Dot, since the general sense seems to be that we should squeeze more cities in where we can.

Unsurprisingly enough ;), I follow my own suggestion and MM Nottingham up to 10 spt after corruption.

The French extort 28 gold from us.


975 (1): AEO worker --> spearman.


900 (4): AEO spearman --> spearman.


875 (5): The Spanish are building the Great Library in Madrid. We'll only be able to beat Madrid's build with Nottingham's if Madrid is under 10 spt, which seems unlikely for a size-twelve capital, although I suppose it's possible if they've hired clowns. Worse, the whole world is building Sun Tzu, and the cascade from that will probably wreck our hopes.:(

Xerxes establishes an embassy with us.


850 (6): We found Bad Tidings on Red Dot.

For what it's worth, there's a break in the ocean off Baltimore, so there might be an island up there.

I'll stop here for discussion. Four of our rivals have Literature and three don't, which means that we have to decide immediately whether we're interested in playing on if we don't get the Great Library. If it's GL or bust, then I won't trade Literature on after buying it. If we do intend to continue without the GL, then it's more important to get what we can for Literature than to maximize absolutely our slim remaining chance at the GL.

My position is that I don't entirely reject the idea of playing on without the GL, but I'd like to hear some plausible theory as to how we can ever get going technologically without it.

Nottingham is at 220-229 shields, 10 spt, with 8 turns to go on the palace pre-build.

1000 (0): Unsurprisingly enough ;), I follow my own suggestion

Unsurprisingly indeed! :lol:

Well, I guess we are not quitting this game under any circumstances, right?
Admittedly I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about what we can do if we are beaten to the GL, but what about trying to capture it... just input for brainstorming, though.

Yeah - lets just capture it. ;) Can't have more than 10 or 15 defenders, can it? :D And probably can't be more than 5 of them that are pikes.

That's just what I thought. A couple of Archers should be enough :D

Well, being the one who jinxed us with the name of this thread, death or glory, I am all for playing on. :D Maybe our luck will change and one of the nearby cities will get it. We would need some major diplomatic and strategic manouvering to pull it off, but if we could get the AI to burn some shields in fighting each other who knows what will happen. :crazyeye:

750 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-750BC.SAV)

850 (6): OK, I'll try to get as much value as possible for Literature.

So, we buy Literature from the Americans for 222 gold and 1 gpt. Then, Literature to the French for Code of Laws and 1 gold; Literature, 14 gold, and 1 gpt to the Mongols for Philosophy and Ceremonial Burial; and Literature and 8 gpt to the Romans for Iron Working and the Wheel. The main point of these choices is that now we can start our fifty-turn run to Republic.

We have one iron, in the mountains near Nottingham, but no horses, which seem to be rare in this world.

I change all our barracks builds to temples, which may eventually help with the flip risk by pushing our borders out.

The Persians and the Romans make peace.


825 (7): AEO spearman --> spearman.


800 (8)-750 (10): Not much.

If we don't get the Great Library, we should probably let the palace complete in Nottingham, which would put our capital in a more central location.

We have a spare settler in AEO. Once the question of the Great Library has been settled we could use it to found the projected city southwest of AEO--though whether our capital is AEO or Nottingham at that point, the new town will make a much better city more corrupt.

Once AEO has produced another two spearmen--one for Bad Tidings and one for itself--it should go back to producing workers for merging.

Incremental growth:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-750BC.JPG

Well, so far, so not-so-bad. ;)

Not sure when Space is going to play, but I can't play until next week.

MB, do you have time now to play this one? (too ;))

You may want to consider research republic at full. Research is as fast as Cash when you don't have 2-fers. Republic is going to remain very expensive, so if you for 50 turn research it is going to be 50 turns. I don't think you can afford to wait 50 turns for it.

Something changed fairly recently in conquests that makes research much more viable. For some reason techs usually cost double their research value at the start of the game.

Finally, you can already build libraries to speed up republic. Even if it still 50 turns, I would still research at full. After 20-30 turns of growth and libraries it will be definitely less than 50 turns.

Oddly, research can make sense at Sid due to the lack of 2-fers. You do need to build libraries, but that give you needed culture (you have overlap so don't want culture to be 20-1 against you).

I'd assumed that nothing could reduce our research time for Republic below fifty turns. But based on what you say, we should probably change the various temple builds I started to libraries.

I was curious and ran the numbers through tech calc. If 7 out of 8 civs know republic, then the cost is 840. If you have over 17 science, it will be less than 50 turns. I think you should be able to get over that. Note that by the time you get it I am assuming every other civ will have it. The cost might be higher now.

Very useful, thanks.

Space, although a couple of the above posts may have created a contrary impression, I believe you're still playing after me, which is to say you're up. :cooool:

I hoped MB would during the week, I know he was looking forward to it. Since it's friday again already I guess it's me after all. It's a busy weekend for me since the queen celebrates her birthday tomorrow and this is one of the few special holidays here: 'koninginnenach/dag' (queensnight/day). I'll try to find a little time nook somewhere but I can't promiss anything.

No problem. :) I just wanted to make sure we all had the same understanding of the roster.

:wow: Queen's Day already! Time flies...
...and we shouldn't let Space play after Queen's day, if you see what I mean - :beer:

Indeed. :coffee: ;)

Sadly I'm going to have no time to play this week, we'll be leaving for a family holiday in Corsica in a few days and they seem to be unable to do without me at work so I need to work double speed to make up for 'lost' time (proposals can't wait, the actual decision has no hurry in most occasions :rolleyes: ).

I'm afraid I'm going to need a skip.

Ainwood <-- UP
Bed_head7 <-- On deck
Karasu
Mad-bax
Northern Pike <-- Just played
Space <-- Skipped

Doesn't that mean that I'm up? :confused:

BTW - have fun Space!

Doesn't that mean that I'm up? :confused:

Yes. :cool:

Space, have a good time--though I suppose just "Survive!" is a more realistic admonition if you're going to be travelling with children. :lol:

Thanks guy. Survival is mostly needed for this week at work. Next week will be fine, my kids are 12 and 9 this year, so they are able to help out a bit too! :D

BTW, since this group has a mind of it's own I changed the roster to reflect Ainwoods' UP-ness. ;)

See what happens when you 'loose' precious work time for a family holiday? :p

Now we'll win the game before you come back to this thread :smug:

Have fun! :D

Got four turns played, then had to fix a bug in CivAssist.....

Well, I think I can (really) play my turnset this time :yeah: -but I won't be able to get it during weekend: so, if both you and Bed cannot finish by tomorrow afternoon (gmt), then please do take your time ;)

Well, we missed the GL.

And missed Knights Templar too! :yeah:

Press enter....

Turn 1: 730 BC
AEO completes a spear, start worker. Change temple builds to libraries. Risk a few extra turns of zero culture, but we'll regain them in 3/turn libraries (and I hate temples).
Flirt with the idea of hastening republic, but we need 40% luxuries to keep the happiness - at 60% science, republic is no faster.

Turn 2: 710 BC.
Very little. Hasting connected.

Turn 3: 690 BC:
zzzzz

Turn 4: 670 BC:
Fix civassist bug.

Turn 5: 650 BC:
back again!
AEO - worker => Library.
9 turns left on GL as spain starts the Knights Templar.

Turn 6: 630 BC:
Rome & America also starts Knights Templar - any chance they've quit the GL to do it? A quick check of the wonders screen says "no".
We now have iron.

Turn 7: 610 BC:
looks like Rome & America are at war - I see legions advancing on san francisco.
French start knights templar.

French complete Sun Tzu's... here comes the cascade.
Spanish switch to KT, dutch to Great Library, completing it in amsterdam :(
Dutch start KT, Rome start KT and complete it.
I switch Nottingham to a palace, and we waste 32 shields.

Turn 8: 590 BC:
Nottingham palace - library.
Warwick - library - barracks.

Turn 9: 570 BC:
AI are now starting sistenes.

Turn 10:
Netherlands and mongols sign treaty.

Well, once the AI civs got started on Sun Tzu and the Knights a cascade was always likely to beat us to the GL.

Bed Head, I think you're up.

Yep, got it.

I have managed to clear the decks now. I'm pretty much finished with SGOTM7 and GOTM43 so I will have time to play again. Sorry for my absence, but I haven't had anything constructive to say since I haven't looked at the game.

So what is the plan now? This is new territory for me and I don't have many (any) bright ideas.

Sid without the Great Library is uncharted terrain for me too. I suppose we have to get libraries built so as to research more quickly @ last, and eventually get the AI civs fighting. We might have to first fight in alliance with a neighbour against a distant civ, to start reducing the neighbour's forces in a war we might be able to survive, and only then fight a tandem war against the neighbour.

I'd assumed that nothing could reduce our research time for Republic below fifty turns. But based on what you say, we should probably change the various temple builds I started to libraries.


In the 7+1 game, I researched Republic in 6 turns. Sure, we were a bit bigger, had some Libraries already, and I could afford 90% science since I had cash to burn - but still, I was surprised how cheap Republic can be, if you are not the first to research it, as usual.

Thanks; that's useful to know.

A few points:

1. We should probably found a city two squares directly south of AEO, despite the volcano and the corruption implications, to redeem some unused tiles. Then we should found a tenth city (though God knows where) just so that we can start the FP, even if we then abandon it.

2. Coventry should pop-rush its temple as soon as it has twenty turns/shields to go. It's amazing the town hasn't flipped already.

3. We can afford to cut the lux rate to 30%--or even better, to 20%, with only Nottingham needing a specialist.

4. Nottingham should produce a settler after its library. And in general, we mustn't leave cities stuck at size six with full food boxes, which is an inefficiency we can't afford. We have to be sure to produce settlers and workers out of such towns.

Then we should found a tenth city (though God knows where) just so that we can start the FP, even if we then abandon it.


IIRC you will lose the ability to build the FP if you city count drops down. Be careful when you abandon it.

IIRC you will lose the ability to build the FP if you city count drops down. Be careful when you abandon it.

I know one could abandon cites after starting the FP in PtW. Did they change this in Conquests?

I know one could abandon cites after starting the FP in PtW. Did they change this in Conquests?



You may want to run a test, but I thought I saw the FP going away in a C3C game.

Lee is correct. Loose cities - FP will be autoswitched; loose the 3rd Army - Bye Pentagon.
HE and MilAc only require an army victory; you don't have to keep it around.

Thanks for the info! I didn't know that either!

I think there are some unclaimed tiles SE, between us and the Mongols. We can squeeze a city in there.

Yes, thanks for clarifying this important point, gentlemen. :goodjob:

I'll play this tomorrow evening. Sorry for the delay.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3_350BC.SAV

490 BC (3) - Realize that the Dutch don't have iron. Iron and 50g gets The Republic, Mysticism, and Warrior Code. The Republic gets Map Making, Mathematics, Horseback Riding, and 61g from Persia. (!) Revolt draws 6 turns. How can that be? Oh well.

With anarchy, my turns were fairly uneventful. I completely forgot about the settler though (oops), but it is on the way. France and Spain are at war though, which is a plus. Of course, here is the big minus:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3_350BC.jpg

Well done! :thumbsup:

Since I *have* to be up, I got it :D

Excellent trading, BH. :goodjob:

Flash update: my evenings are presently taken up by the pressing need to find a house to live in...
I will play my turns during the weekend and duly report Monday morning from my tent next to the A1 motorway ;)

report Monday morning from my tent next to the A1 motorway ;)

Or you might want to try living under a bridge. Assuming you can kill the troll, of course, it's a lot quieter. :D

Hi guys, I'm back. :)

Sad (but not totally unexpected) news about the GL. Good trading to make up for it (slightly). :thumbsup:

I like the plan to try and get the FP build up. How will we ensure not losing it? Should we try to get at least one 'spare' city in somewere?

What about the longer term?

How will we ensure not losing it? Should we try to get at least one 'spare' city in somewere?

Or, depending on the exact timing of events when the player falls below ten cities while building the FP, we could just keep a settler ready (meaning on the intended site) to found a replacement city in case of a flip.

Good news: I managed to find an agreement with the troll ;)

Then the game. Not an awful lot of things I could do, after all:

- I kept research up hoping we could be able to buy Currency, but it wasn't possible. I didn't like shutting down research altogether and try to buy it for gpt.
The Iron deal with the Dutch is expiring in the next few turns, and if they haven't got it we may try to get a few techs again for it.

- The AI are close to the end of the MA (Magellan and Smith are being built).

- We have a couple libraries. I started a few more and built and disbanded a few units in a pathetic effort to speed up their construction.
There wasn't much point in building a lot of infrastructure anyway.

- I agreed to give 23 gold to America when they kindly asked for them. Would have there been any benefit in starting a war with the other continent? (They have Navigation, btw).

- We have an embassy in France. They are at war with Spain, who allied with the Mongols against them. The alliance was signed in 250 BC, but I couldn't find a way to use it to our advantage.

- The temple in York can be changed, as the Archer in Nottingham (I had in mind to disband it for a library anyway).

- Oh, and I founded two cities in the last remaining unclaimed tiles next to our borders. We can start the FP now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3-Take1-150BC.jpg

And the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Space3_150BC.SAV)

Well done Karasu, I hope the troll stays friendly. ;)

Time to start planning, is it feasible to capture the GL at some point? I haven't looked at the save yet, but the Dutch are one of the stronger nations, I presume. Is the city that built it anywhere close?

Its in amsterdam, just across the other side of the mongols. Actually, the dutch are on of the weakest AIs, so I think this should be our goal (maybe in alliance with the mongols?)

Good work in the circumstances, Karasu. :goodjob:

Its in amsterdam, just across the other side of the mongols. Actually, the dutch are on of the weakest AIs, so I think this should be our goal (maybe in alliance with the mongols?)

Sign ROP with Mongols?

I tried to look into our diplomacy options, but people seem not to like signing agreements with us -and we haven't actually got a whole lot of things to offer them.

We may probably declare war with the Dutch, and then ally with the Mongols against France to get them to ally with us against Holland, but... :suicide:

...not to mention the fact that our entire army is made up of a few warriors and a couple of spearmen (oh, right, and one archer IIRC). :D

So how do we build a decent army? Will a bunch of Swordsmen be enough to blitz the Great Library and hold it for one turn? Catapults?

It's highly optimistic, but not quite ridiculous ;), to think that we might eventually ally with the Mongols, lure most of Amsterdam's garrison out of the city, and take the Great Library. But I don't think it's worth trying without MDI or longbowmen, so all that is still some distance in the future.

Our old capital (AEO) looks like the best location for the Forbidden Palace, so it should switch from its worker build to the FP. As part of the same project, Nottingham (stuck at size six with a full food box) should produce a settler after the archer it's working on now. The settler should then wait on the tile two directly north of Nottingham, so that it can found an emergency city to save the FP build if something flips.

I'd be inclined to cash-rush Coventry's temple, which we can just afford.

Bad Tidings should be micromanaged to get another shield.

Warwick should start a courthouse before long.

I fully agree.

BTW...

...who is up? :D

Space or MB. The pattern of skips and swaps has become so complicated that I don't know which, but definitely one of them. :lol:

I'm glad you guys keep track of these things for me...! :D
I'm not sure when I can play though. :sad: I'll come back on this tomorrow morning (in about 14 hours), then I'll know more.

And do you know more?

And remember -if you can't do things yourself, you can always delegate... not to me, please :D

Yeah, but with this game you should play any turn you can lay your hands on, they may be the last... :mischief: I can't play today for sure, but I might tomorrow.

Well said :lol:

Enjoy your turns, then. I guess I will find something to do during the weekend ;)

I haven't played this weekend, sorry. I'm not sure I'll be able to this week and next week is going to be difficult as well. I will try to find an hour tomorrow morning, but failing that I'll need a skip, again. :(

I sorry to hear you're that busy :eek:, but we understand.

I have the vague feeling that Space has been busy yesterday? :ack:

On second thinking, please, fellows, let us revive this thread a bit. I am starting to miss my daily dose of laughs!!! ;)

MB, could you play? The next round should be Space's or yours.

Sadly, I did indeed fail to play yesterday, and the rest of this week is too busy for me. So pleeez MB... play a round for us. :)
I'll try to find some time coming friday. Next week will be even worse for me. There's what they call the 'avond-vierdaagse' (which roughly translates into 'four-evenings-event') for kids between 8-12, which my kids will be joining, as do most others'. They walk a distance of 10km every evening four days in a row. We will have 1 hour between job and the start of each evening where dinner should be cooked and consumed. At least one parent is supposed to be walking with them each day. Between that and the start of a new project which should be well on the road before the start of the summer holidays, no substantial civvin' time can be found, I'm afraid... :scan:

They walk a distance of 10km every evening four days in a row.

This sounded like a brilliant idea for getting them out of the house, but then

At least one parent is supposed to be walking with them each day.

was completely disillusioning. :lol:

Why have I got the impression that this is a very elaborate form of masochistic entertainment... :crazyeye: ;)

I believe you won't be surprised, my dear teammates, if I tell you that I have the impression that both Space and MB are busy and may not be able to play for a while... :dubious:

I copied here our most recent roster, but may I suggest that whoever is available tries to bring the game on, and we will keep on moving from there?

Ainwood
Bed_head7
Karasu
Mad-bax
Northern Pike
Space

Cheers :D

250 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-250AD.SAV)

150 (0): I switch AEO to the FP.

I cash-rush Coventry's temple.

York temple --> barracks.


110 (2): The French and the Spanish are fighting quite a serious war, despite their lack of a common border.

Canterbury courthouse --> barracks.


90 (3): We send our iron to America for all three techs we can see--Currency, Polytheism, and Construction--and, surprisingly (since Sid civs are normally broke), 17 gpt.

Persia joins Spain against France. The Persians are on another continent, though.


70 (4): The Americans join the dogpile on the French.


10 BC (7): The Dutch join in against the French. France's Musketeers seem to be slaughtering most attackers, though.


30 AD (9): The Americans complete Magellan.


50 (10): The Persians and Mongols extort a total of 43 gold out of us.


70 (11): Warwick courthouse --> marketplace.

The Spanish complete Adam Smith.


90 (12): The Americans complete Shakespeare and Bach.


110 (13): The Romans join the anti-French war.

Nottingham and Hastings complete marketplaces.


130 (14): The French and the Spanish make peace.

Canterbury marketplace --> aqueduct.


170 (16): The French and the Persians make peace.

Bad Tidings library --> barracks.


210 (18): An English Oddity FORBIDDEN PALACE --> marketplace. So we're over that hurdle, anyway.


230 (19): France and America make peace.

Spain and America are in the IA. :eek:


250 (20): Not much.

We'll be eligible to trade our iron to America again in three turns. But I'd rather get Invention for it than Engineering, so I think we should hold on to it until we've self-researched Engineering, using the interim to build pikemen (not MDI, since we'll fairly soon be able to build LB without iron). Then, with Engineering and Invention, we'll be able to start accumulating longbowmen and trebuchets for our forlorn-hope attack on the Great Library.

We're researching at a deficit which will soon have to be corrected. But it's no use letting gold accumulate just to be extorted away from us.

The forest between Basildon and Bad Tidings should be cut down soon.

Fabian development:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SP3-250AD.JPG

Well done! :thumbsup:

I mean, we survived into the ADs (never mind if the AI are already a couple of ages ahead...) and still have something to do in this game! ;)

and you kept the game alive... :D

:worship: Thank you, NP.

The forest between Basildon and Bad Tidings should be cut down soon.

Why exactly? Shields or one less potential foothold for foreign troops?

Shields, and the general lack of food in that area. If an enemy stack of 100 shows up there the defense modifier won't matter one way or the other. :lol:

So you would advise against our joining a dogpile against France if the peace deals they just made go broken... :suicide: :D

:bump:

"He's dead, Jim." :(

I'll show you dead.

Got it.

Well, I was wrong. We are still alive, at the end of 20 more turns. Woo-hoo!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/space3_450AD.SAV

250 AD (0) - We need to take some chances here, so I trade our only incense in the HIGH flip risk city of Coventry for Spices and Rome's World Map. Our new knowledge gets us the Mongols WM, 41g, and 3gpt. A few further trades gets us around 60g and nearly full knowledge of the map.

360 AD (11) - Trade Engineering to Persia for Monotheism. Start on Invention, as they already have Theology. Actually, think better of it, and decide that now is the time to renegotiate the iron deal with America. We get Invention and 260g. Get Theology and 105g from Persia for Invention. Now start on Gunpowder, which Persia lacks.

450 AD (20) - With the incense-spices deal over (it may actually have been over a bit ago, as I see the Romans lost a city with spices to the Americans, and spices are no longer available), trade our incense to the Mongols for two luxes and 8gpt. Now, we don't have any need of specialists.

I built more temples and other happy buildings than usual. Since we lack luxuries and the means to acquire luxuries, and we need culture, it actually makes pretty good sense in our situation.

Other than that, wars broke out all over the place. It is kind of crazy, and hard to keep track of all of what is going on. Universal Suffrage is also underway in a few places, so despite getting four techs in the last 20 turns, we don't seem to be gaining much ground. Hopefully all of the wars will allow us to do a little more catching up.

I haven't studied the save yet, but good work keeping this one breathing. :goodjob:

The AI tech pace you report makes me wonder what the record is for the quickest space loss. :D Actually, one could probably play an interesting SG trying to lose as quickly as possible by SS launch, if that hasn't already been done.

Indeed, well done! :)

Nice idea for an SG, maybe we can/will set them a good target. :evil:
I should be getting more time in the near future... :banana:... so I hope to be getting involved here again. :cool:

Of course you have to get involved, Space.
Actually, and no matter what the roster says, I believe that you should give it a go... :smug:

Our chances of taking the Great Library in Amsterdam are as good as we could reasonably hope for, since the Dutch-Mongol wars have made Amsterdam a border city and we can afford an RoP with the Mongols. But we have to start building the units for the attack--longbowmen, trebuchets, and soon musketmen--so I think we should switch our cities away from infrastructure builds to military immediately, except where this would be grossly wasteful of shields.

I don't believe Basildon would be able to claim any tiles from the Mongols with a cultural expansion, so since we need a worker pump anyway for merges, I'd change the build there to a granary.

Oh right, I had completely forgotten about trying the GL slingshot.

Of course you have to get involved, Space.
Actually, and no matter what the roster says, I believe that you should give it a go... :smug:I'm not there quite yet. Today was my daughter's birthday party. In fact it's still going on as I type this: it's a sleep-over. :cringe:

I'm not there quite yet. Today was my daughter's birthday party. In fact it's still going on as I type this: it's a sleep-over. :cringe:
Strangely, we've had those for the last couple of years. And after each of them, we've sworn "never again". Think we'd learn, wouldn't you. :(

I don't see the problem, Space -you can play while they sleep, can't you? :p
or are you going to tell me that you need some sleep too...

As I recall, not much sleep happens at sleep overs. Especially when one's sister decides that they'll sleep outside their brother's room instead of in her own room, and he has to wake up early to go to work. At least, that is my recollection.

:lol: at bed_head, I was just about to answer Karasu: Sleep? They kept each other awake for the longest time. And they got up at 5:30am the next morning anyway... :lol:

I've played! :dance:

Report later, but I'll drop a piece of good news as a teaser: we do have Saltpeter (and we're still alive :)).

Early:
I've changed Canterbury and Hastings to Rax. switch York from Cathedral to the cheaper Colloseum (since culture gain was the aim). Basildon to Granary. MM Chelmsford to get the Market in 2 and put Dover and Bad Tidings on Trebuchets.
Warwick has a Rax and can finish the Temple before starting Longbows.

Middle:
We've got Saltpeter but not connected, in the York mountains. The whole world is fighting and making peace deal and warring again. :thumbsup: It's how it should be. What *is* worth special mentioning is the declaration of the Dutch to the Mongols... I hope Amsterdam holds log enough. Chances will be completely different in we have to fight the Mongols.

Late:
Signed the RoP with the Mongols for WM and change, turning them Gracious.
York and OAE build Muskets now, upgraded one Vet Spear.
This is our current Army:

The save:
550AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/space3_550AD.SAV)

Please note that I've signed the RoP already in the turn before last so we've still some turns to build up forces. Now that the Mongols are fighting the Dutch too we might need to go to Amsterdam already, to keep a spot open near the city's border.

I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet, but well done, plainly. :goodjob:

I was going to title this post "Skip Reminder", but then I reflected that it would be absurd to assume that a mere month's absence would require me to be skipped in this particular game. :lol: In any event, I won't be able to play another round until mid-August, due to travel. :wavey: I hope we'll keep this game staggering forward, though. We have a surprisingly good chance of taking the Great Library--unless the Mongols grab Amsterdam first, anyway--and it would be a pity not to see how that works out.

Upgrading our spearmen to musketmen will probably always be too expensive, but we should consider disconnecting the saltpetre and upgrading some of them to pikemen.

Just before we go to war with the Dutch, we should establish an embassy with them to get a look into Amsterdam. Knowing whether we can afford to attack the city directly, or only after some luring, will be very important, as usual at Sid.

Great news! :goodjob:

And glad to see that the game is still alive :D Ehm... whose turn is it now?


PS: NP, have a nice trip :wavey:

mad-bax or ainwood should take it if possible. If they cannot, I believe the next name on the lists starts with a "K" and ends in "arasu."