Consul: Bertie

External Consulate - Policy for Term 2

Long Term Foreign Affairs

1. For the time being China should continue to be developed as a trading partner, and as a buffer against more distant civilizations.
2. Any demands made by civilizations further from us than China, or from India and the Netherlands, should be refused.
3. Once our nation has reached a size of 12 cities, no demands should be paid, and this paragraph supercedes paragraph 3 in this case.
4. When treasury allows, further embassies should be established and wars instigated between distant nations. The more tangled and complex the alliances the better.
5. Portugal and the Pyramids are a priority target for the time immediately following a government switch.

Long Term War Plans

1. War must be declared on The Netherlands on or before 400BC.
The aims of this war are:

a) Deprive The Netherlands of Iron
b) Deprive The Netherlands of Horses
c) Secure a source of Spices
d) Deprive the Netherlands of High Food City sites
e) Acquire a harbor on the northern shore of our continent
e) In order to satisfy these aims we should take the following cities: Ultrechect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, The Hague, Groningen, Holwerd, & Arnhem.
f) After we take these seven cities we will assess the situation, and most probably offer the Netherlands peace. In a peace treaty we should acquire technology, specifically the Republic if we haven’t already acquired it, and more territory.

2. War must be declared on Portugal on or before the year 0.
The aims of this war are:
a) Capture the Pyramids and the Statue of Zeus
b) Capture the cities of Lisbon, Oporto, Guimaraes
c) If feasible, eliminate Portugal from the map

Long Term Trading
1. Trading should be performed to maximize profit.
2. Monopoly techs should not be bought unless a subsequent 2 for 1 deal (or better) is available.
3. Strategic and Luxury commodities should not be sold to Countries that we believe we may be at war with during this term.
4. No GPT based deals should be entered into with any Country that we believe we may be at war with within the following 20 turns.
6. A harbor should be built in a town that is connected to our capital as soon as is practicable; or acquired in war with the Netherlands.[/

This policy is subject to change and will be adapted to accomodate polls and game conditions as required.

External Consulate data at 1375BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/External1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/External2.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/External3.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/External4.jpg

A question, Consul: How did you come up with the dates for war with India and the Neatherlands (700BC and 400BC, respectively)?

I would think it more fitting to set a materal deadline (say, once we've amassed 10 swordsmen or whatever) rather than a temporal one. But, I trust your judgement and would be appreciative of your response.

This is a good question, and relates to my understanding of the constitution. This office is responsible for long term planning only. Therefore it is for the Commander of the Armed Forces to decide how many units of which type he needs to deliver the aims of the war. I merely set him his objectives.

700BC is the important date and was arrived at by estimating the number of turns it would take to produce enough settlers to fill the dot map proposed by the director of expansion in term 1. After this date we will not be able to peacefully expand our core IMO. By experience also I find that wars before 700BC lead to large numbers of razed cities which is inneficient and damages other civs attitude towards us, and dates after this run the risk of facing pikemen and Knights. In the Netherlands case, I feel that we must attempt to deal with them before they get their UU.

Finally, I feel it is important to end these wars before we are in a postion to switch governments. The wars should not interfere with this process.

As the game unfolds and we get a better feel for the tech rate then these dates may be allowed to drift. ATM however I have assumed worse case.

I hope that answers your question. :)

Looks like a pretty comprehensive long-term plan, and exactly what I was hoping this office would produce -- friends vs enemies and how to deal with each. :D

Let's make sure it's generally accepted by the people and then follow a flow like this:


Consuls create long term plans
People give their advice and consent (after amendments as necessary)
Merge long-term plans into 2-4 week strategy
Commander & Directors create short-term plans
Consuls & People give advice and consent (after amendments as necessary)
Play 10 turns
Loop back to commander / directors if conditions still equal
Loop back to consuls if conditions are significantly different

Agreed Dave. I will post a discussion thread for each of the three different areas of responsibility and then post relevent polls associated with what comes out of the discussion, as soon as I can. Hopefully this evening. :)

Consul,
Borrowing a page from Provolutions book I would like to invite you and CivGeneral to participate in a point counterpoint about wether to war with the Dutch or India first and are overall war policy . Make it as long as you feel it should be and discuss anything you feel is relevant, please post your reply in the Camelot Times thread

Do you need a deputy for exetarnal policy, if you do then please know that i would really love to help

Consul,

I've been off lately but congratulations for winning the election. The plans you have laid out are very well done and much more in-depth than mine would be. I would like to apply fort he deputy position if you don't mind.

Gulliver: Since no-one applied for the position earlier I embarrassed Bertie into taking the job. However, If you would really like to help then you can.

It would be great if you could post all the information that you can that are relevent to this office at the end of each turnchat. For instance, AI attitudes, who is building which wonder, and in which city and for how long. Also trading opportunities, who has which resources connected... that sort of thing. There are people involved in the game who do not have C3C and if you can present the information in a way that bears that in mind then that would be great. No pressure of course, but if you would like to do it then that would be great. :)

If you do, then perhaps you can start your own thread in the Government sub-forum entitled "Term 2 External Consulate - Game Summary" or something similar.

Of course i'll take it, i have never held any office and this would be great. If i get the job i have only one question:Would all this information be in the turnchat summary thread?If not, where would it be? I assure you i am very responsible and am on atleast once a day.

What I would do is download the save after the turnchat. Open the save and write down all the information. Alternatively you can use Dianthus CrpSuite or Ainwoods Civassist to glean most of the info. If you need any of thes programs then just let me know.

Thanks for taking it on. I guess you can be the Press Officer for the consulate, and perhaps I can be your press officer later in the game. :)

Gulliver, excellent move looking for something useful to do within the game! We can use every contribution. :D

Mad-bax, are those screenshots of CivAssist? Looks like I need to expand my available utility suites. ;)

Aah yes... but it's an unreleased beta version. :mischief:

I will ask ainwood if I can give it to you. :)

External consulate policy in post 1 has been amended to take into account the result of recent polls.

Icmancin. Yes I would be honoured to have you as part of our team, but unfortunately the Deputy Position has been filled. I would however appreciate an analyst to do some predictive work relating to the external consulates plans.

At the moment we are looking at war with India and then the Dutch. I would like these wars to be completed, and the aims of the war realised before either Monarch or Republic is available to us if possible. It would be great if you could run some figures which will estimate how many turns the wars will take vs how many turns it is likely to take to get either of these two techs. It should then be possible to set a target for the beginning of the first war that allows both wars to complete before these techs are known. It would be helpful also if you could estimate how many units we will have at our disposal at this time. You should then be able to come up with say 3 different scenarios which can be put to the Commander of the Armed forces for his fuurther suggestions, leading to a poll which will set the Consulates plan in stone.

Please don't feel obliged, but if you would like to take this on I would be grateful.

I'll gladly take this job and begin work right away.

Aah yes... but it's an unreleased beta version. :mischief:

I will ask ainwood if I can give it to you. :)

Tell ainwood to release it (at least to me! :goodjob: The colors are fantastic!)

I have also put up a discussion in the Citizen's forum regarding a government switch mad-bax. It seems to me you want a war before a government switch? Please note that in the thread, and regardless of when, also what government we want.

Icmancin. Yes I would be honoured to have you as part of our team, but unfortunately the Deputy Position has been filled. I would however appreciate an analyst to do some predictive work relating to the external consulates plans.

At the moment we are looking at war with India and then the Dutch. I would like these wars to be completed, and the aims of the war realised before either Monarch or Republic is available to us if possible. It would be great if you could run some figures which will estimate how many turns the wars will take vs how many turns it is likely to take to get either of these two techs. It should then be possible to set a target for the beginning of the first war that allows both wars to complete before these techs are known. It would be helpful also if you could estimate how many units we will have at our disposal at this time. You should then be able to come up with say 3 different scenarios which can be put to the Commander of the Armed forces for his fuurther suggestions, leading to a poll which will set the Consulates plan in stone.

Please don't feel obliged, but if you would like to take this on I would be grateful.

Would this involve making my own battle plans? Or just estimating the resources we'll have at the beginning of the war (units, gold etc) and trying to end the war without a revolution? Would we use your plan?

What I would do is download the save after the turnchat. Open the save and write down all the information. Alternatively you can use Dianthus CrpSuite or Ainwoods Civassist to glean most of the info. If you need any of thes programs then just let me know.

Thanks for taking it on. I guess you can be the Press Officer for the consulate, and perhaps I can be your press officer later in the game. :)

Bad news, i tried opening the save, won't work, i await your orders consul, i will keep trying until then.

Not specific battle plans, but rather assumptions about battles.

For instance you can assume that we build chariots and upgrade to horses. Then you can assum that each enemy city has say 2 spears and an archer in it or whatever, and then you can work out how many horses we will have at the beginning of the war, how much gold this will require for upgrades, how many movement turns to get to each city etc. Then you can do the same for swords. So eventually you should be able to say something like... If we go to republic the tech will be available on turn X. To fight a war that will end before then we need to start it on turn Y. If we build chariots and upgrade we will need X gold and we will have roughly W horses in our army if we build warriors and upgrade because they have 1 movement instead of 2 we will have to go to war P turns earlier, in which case we will have Q swords and require S gold for upgrades. Then do the same for monarchy and even feudalism if you can stand it.
If the analysis is believable then it will allow the CoAF to decide which units he prefers and how to make best use of the resources he has available. It will also allow a more informed decision as to which government to switch to and when. For the External Consulate it means that we have quantified our strategy so theat it is acheivable and has a low impact on the rest of the game.

See what I mean? I know it's not easy and it cannot be perfectly accurate, but we should get an idea of relative strengths and weaknesses of each option. :) Good luck.

Bad news, i tried opening the save, won't work, i await your orders consul, i will keep trying until then.

Pleez give instuctions consul

I understand now. But there is one problem....

I downloaded the v1.22b patch (took forever at 2kb) but when installed it says to use the Conquest CD. the only problem is its in the drive and the game won't read it. This'll make it harder for me to perform my job with v1.22 but I'll think of something... I hope.

You need CivIII Conquests version 1.22 to open the save.

The correct patch can be found >>HERE<< (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3patches.shtml)

Sometimes people get a problem with the game not reading the CD afterwards, but normally that's for PTW and not conquests.

If you still have a problem then please give exact details of what is happening. If you have bought the disks and have the correct patch on your computer then I am sure I can get you running. I just need enough information to go on.

i have version 1.00. so i cant open the save. should i use your patch

Ok mad-bax...
Well Conquests is installed on my secondary drive (D). When I play v1.00 what I had before I install the patch, I require no CD. It plays itself. But when I play a CD required Civ game (I only used vanilla, v1.29 and Conquests v1.22, not PTW) it tells me to insert disk into my my disk drive. I have one operational drive (E) which itself is a burner but can play disks. The CD is in the drive but no go. And I downloaded the patch from there (took all day). If you can't get it running dont blame yourself. My computer is from hell.

Gulliver: yes you need the patch.
Icmancin: Yes I can fix your problem, but rather than spam this thread I'll send you the procedure via pm later today.

Bertie: For some reason my browser is crashing when I try to post a poll. Officially I have to post a poll for it to be official (if you see what I mean). So I am hereby transferring the duty of posting official polls to you.

At your earliest convenience could you post the following poll?

Which civilisation should we declare war on first?

A) India
B) The Netherlands
C) Some other Civ
D) Abstein

Set the poll as public, three days duration and single choice please. Also please let people know its public and three days and singular choice in the accompanying post.

Thanks.

For some reason my browser is crashing when I try to post a poll.

I use Internet Explorer and have had this problem in the past. I generally found it to be a problem about 50% of the time when I had multiple browsers open to Civfanatics. I now try and make sure I only have one open at the time I submit the new thread.

Of course you can't really test this without spamming the forum with a bunch of polls.... Maybe I'll experiment in the SGOTM forum.... j/k

Thanks mad-bax. Oh, and now that there's a poll to decide on which civ to strike first, I would have to wait for a plan and the poll to be finished for a proper analysis right?

Bertie: For some reason my browser is crashing when I try to post a poll. Officially I have to post a poll for it to be official (if you see what I mean). So I am hereby transferring the duty of posting official polls to you.

At your earliest convenience could you post the following poll?

Which civilisation should we declare war on first?

A) India
B) The Netherlands
C) Some other Civ
D) Abstein

Set the poll as public, three days duration and single choice please. Also please let people know its public and three days and singular choice in the accompanying post.

Thanks.

Actually Persia and Japan are our enemies since like 10 pm yesterday

Icmancin: I would assume an Indian war first.

If the vote goes for a Dutch war first then I must resign in any case since it overturns the entire policy on which I stood. In this case my successor may have different priorities.

The instructions for the next turnset are drafted below.
These instructions are in-line with current policy, however, strong objections will be considered.

External consulate draft Instructions.

The External Consulates Policy is linked >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2662454&postcount=1)

This policy may be used as a guide by the president who has the latitude to make decisions within my remit that are in line with this policy and no specific instructions from the tactical branch exist.

The only specific instructions I have are:-
1. Do not buy horseback riding unless it is the only tech that prevents us reaching the MA.
2. Map Making is no longer a monopoly tech. It may be traded for if that is the wish of the R&T Consulate.
3. Establish an Embassy with the Netherlands and sign an MA vs Persia
4. Sign an MA with China vs Persia.
5. Establish Embassies with Portugal and France.
6. Sign MA with France vs Japan
7. Sign MA with Portugal vs Japan

These requirements may be met at any time during the turnset. The External Consul would prefer that they are carried out at the earliest possible time, but realises that the actual date must be set by the Director of Commerce. The order in which the instructions are written is designed to gain the largest amount of gold possible from the trade of Philosophy to the Dutch and Chinese, and Mathematics to the French and Portuguese. However, if a better opportunity presents itself then the president may use his discretion.

Please note that if we use a tech to buy MA's and take a lump sum payment in the deal we will be obliged to honour the MA's for the full 20 turns unless our partner breaks the deal first. If we do not take a lump sum payment, then we can cancel the MA at any time without hurting our reputation.

These instructions require the prior approval of the Consul for R&T and the Director of Commerce. In particular the Director of Commerce must supply instructions for the exact turn, and the payment method for the Diplomatic assignments.

M-B, agree with your first 4 points in your instructions for the next play turn. I have questions about 5-7.

How likely is it that the French & the Portuguese know the Japanese? It’s a good guess that Portugal might; didn’t we first meet Portugal somewhere on or close to that continent? But Japan is one of the most distant civs from them, so if they don’t know them, they won’t be able to enter into an MA. I would think one or both of them would know the Persians, though. Perhaps we should refine the instructions to say Japan would be the preferred target in the MA; but failing that, Persia?

At some point I’d also like to get the Byzantines & Mayans involved in the Japanese (or Persian) war. Japan is in their neck of the woods so they’ll have a greater likelihood of actually being able to harm Japan; and in turn, be harmed, thus reducing their strength.

I had a look at the save last evening and the instructions I wrote are impossible to implement anyway. The cost of embassies ranges from 40 to 170g. I tested the value of philosophy by seeing what I could get for it, and I'm not sure that it will be enough to buy an MA with more than one ore two civs. Also, we can't be sure which civs know each other.

In other woords I was being a bit gung ho. So yes Bertie, points 5-7 are not a good idea, I agree. We can't affort it, and may get no benefit from it whatever.

I am begining to lean towards no alliances in the next turnset except for the China alliance, and I think we should wait 5-10 turns for that to allow Persian troops to be in amongst the Chinese cities.

Opinions?

mad-bax,
As far as the Chinese alliance, I would be tempted to wait until we see some Persian troops before signing the alliance. I would send a warrior to one of the mountains near China and once I saw a Persian would then look to bring in China. This will ensure that some of Persia's troops are strung out and more vunerable to a Chinese attack.

OK mad bax, i downloaded v.1.22, i will open the save (I miss radio)

I am begining to lean towards no alliances in the next turnset except for the China alliance, and I think we should wait 5-10 turns for that to allow Persian troops to be in amongst the Chinese cities.

Opinions?

That's a pretty good idea. The major downside would be if the Persians would manage to ally the Chinese against us, and I think the probability of that happening is low. Moth's idea of a lookout is interesting, and I agree with him.

State of the Nation at 1000BC (Turn 80)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/DG6-1000BC.jpg

Still teasing us with the new version of CivAssist - good advertising, I can't wait!

Wow. I’ve never used a utility – I’m a casual player so I never figured I needed one – but that screenshot of Civ Assist shows me I’ve been missing something. It appears using that makes Civ almost a different game, and a better one. I’m impressed. That’s a wonderful tool.

I gather that most people consider Civ Assist & CrpSuite to be the two best utilities. Is one better than the other? Is it desirable to use both? Or should I just download the pair and figure it out on my own? :lol:

what progam should i use to open the save?

Wow. I’ve never used a utility – I’m a casual player so I never figured I needed one – but that screenshot of Civ Assist shows me I’ve been missing something. It appears using that makes Civ almost a different game, and a better one. I’m impressed. That’s a wonderful tool.

I gather that most people consider Civ Assist & CrpSuite to be the two best utilities. Is one better than the other? Is it desirable to use both? Or should I just download the pair and figure it out on my own? :lol:

I started by using CivAssist. I then moved to CrpSuite for some different features.

IMHO this is what's better in each:
They are both equally good about alerting you to cities about to riot.

CivAssist (basically spoiler safe):
20K calculator, Cities/Production/Corruption for what are cities doing, Technology for tech costs, My Trades for current trades

CrpSuite (careful you can get spoiler info by accident sometimes):
CrpRings for viewing map,
CrpMapStat: Culture for avoiding Domination win, Flipping for cities with flip %
CrpStats: load all your saves and see trending info. You can also export to a spreadsheet if you want to make graphs.
CrpViewer: for looking at games once done (or nearly done)

Edit: when the new version of CivAssist is ready many of the features look better than the CrpSuite stuff.

I think both peices of software are great. Even the old version of civAssist is brilliant. Because it works on autosaves and warns you when cities are about to fall into disorder and stuff like that it just helps take a lot of the tedium out of the game. My only problem with it is that sometimes I forget to start it when playing, and when a city riots I sort of go :hmm: :mad: :hmm: :blush: :suicide: as I first blame it on assist and then realise its my own fault.

My problem is when I load a save manually to start with then forget to put it back on autoload. That tends to have a very similar effect as forgetting to load it in the first place. I must admit I tend to run both CivAssist and CRpSuite as both give a slightly different view and I swing from preferring one to the other and back. They take a lot of the tedium and screen switching (that comes from trying to check up information all the time) out of the game and allow you to concentrate on playing and strategy.

Post 1 has been ammended to reflect recent changes in circumstances.

Consul,

I like the policy. A few nitpicks :eek: on the foreign affairs section:
- paragraph 3 should refer to 1 and 2, not 3 and 4 :)
- there is no policy on demands from china.

Moth, m-b, & Furiey: thanks for your comments on utilities. I’ve downloaded both civAssist & CRPSuite & like both (though obviously my experience with them is quite limited). CivAssist may complement my playing style better (and I like the info it gives me) so I’ll probably start by using this as my primary tool.

Back on the subject of External Consulate business! @m-b: I’d make a minor refinement in the Indian peace plans. I think we should also press for cities in addition to technology, particularly since the Indians are behind us in tech.

Yes agreed Bertie. It doesn't look like they will have anything to offer on the tech or gold front. I'll change it.

what progam should i use to open the save?

Seriously, tell me now. I can't open the save till i get an answer :mad: !!!

Conquests, patched to v1.22, an earlier patch won't work.

State of the Nation at 730BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/DG6-730BC_ext_cons.jpg

Flip Risks, territory, movement cost from Bentley and troop positions at 730BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/DG6-730BC_ext_cons_terr.jpg

Show off! :p One of these days Ainwood will release this and we can all do this.

A couple questions and/or bugs/features for Ainwood:
1. When did our workers get promoted to Veteran status?
2. Why isn't the flip info shown for Bentley and Delhi? Is Delhi revealing spoiler info? I would expect a 0.0-0.0% (5) listed or somesuch. Also, how is the info calculated for AI cities. I would think we would have to list the un-garrisoned percentages and let us (the humanI) guess at how many units the AI has in garrison.

Bentley is zero flip risk since it has a garrison of 12 and requires 12 - that info is given on one of the main sheets.

Delhi is zero flip risk because it is a capital.
Assist only shows non-zero flip risk even if when rounding it shows it as zero min.

The AI flip risks are assuming no garrison, but I agree it shouldn't show it. Other spoiler info includes being able to see who has contact with who without the necessary tech or embassy, and being able to see what techs and resources an enemy has even though his envoy won't speak to you. It's stuff like this that is keeping it out of the shops ATM I think.

I know you were joking, but I think I should show this stuff for the people without C3C. There was a Freedom of information act after all IIRC, and this is the quickest way I can do it. Without the tool I just wouldn't have time.

All workers and settlers are flagged as vets in the save file. Other utilities that apply a can opener to save files report the same thing. I don't know why.

I'm mainly just Jealous. I don't own C3C so I am limited in what I can get from the save at this point.

Don't know if you *have* to show it, but it's certainly useful. CivAssist shows a few things that mapstat doesn't (research overview, for example), and CivAssist doesn't seem to work if you don't have C3C (like me).

I'm hoping (and believing) your screenies are not showing the who-knows-who spoilers, that would really be a cheat ATM :eek:

It seems movement cost does not take roads into account.

CivAssist doesn't seem to work if you don't have C3C (like me).


There is a comment about that over in the CivAssist (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=98630) thread. I think you can install the patch even without having C3C or something, but check the thread for details.

I have seen the request to delay the chat if the Commander's plan deviates from the strategic objective. Would it be OK to proceed with the most obvious moves which are expected to follow the objective (Delhi and Bombay IIRC) and then stop? Hopefully it won't come to that anyway. ;)

There is a comment about that over in the CivAssist (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=98630) thread. I think you can install the patch even without having C3C or something, but check the thread for details.

Thanks! For anyone else who wants to try, it's in post 351.

Consul,

As I read your instructions to the DP for the April 13 play turn, it occurs to me that although they are perfectly clear, someone who hasn’t troubled to read the discussion threads in which your instructions were developed might not grasp the full import of some of your instructions. Specifically, I suggest you clarify the instructions for the Indian War strategy.

First, you might want to state that our strategy is to have two Indian wars: a limited one now, and another (or two) wars later. Second, you might want to identify which Indian cities need to be captured to achieve the strategy for the first war. Dehli of course is the capital; and capturing Bombay will enable us to “secure a source of silks.” You might want to specify that capturing these two cities should be enough to “use peace to gain territory” and “provide a strong strategic position from which to launch a war against the Netherlands,” thus achieving your immediate strategy. You may want to include in the strategy the option of allowing the DP to march troops towards Madras after taking Bombay. This would actually position them better for our war against the Dutch; and the threat of our taking Bombay might encourage India to give us a more generous peace settlement. Of course the Commander of the Military will be responsible for drawing up the actual plans for achieving your strategy; but his task may be easier if the strategy for the first war is more clearly delineated.

Speaking of the peace settlement, I suggest we ask for the cities of Lahore and/or Kolhapur. These are the two coastal cities to the SE of Oxford. Karachi is the tundra city near Camelot; I’m not inclined to ask for that because it’s a city that we can take whenever convenient. However, it is an enemy at our backdoor, so we may want to take that simply to eliminate the threat from an attack from that direction.

I just don't want the war on India to exceed the objectives of the Policy without having it discussed first. I guess if you follow my instructions about proceeding until we have Delhi + Spices and the troops healed and stacked in Bombay, then we can stop and decide whether we target Madras next or prepare for the Dutch war.

I am concerned that the COA war plan as it stands today exceeds the authority it has from the Consul. I thought that it was this offices job to set the scope, and the COA was responsible for execution.

I thought that it was this offices job to set the scope, and the COA was responsible for execution.

I agree with you; that is why I suggest that if we make it crystal clear what it takes to achieve our strategy, there can't be any room for misunderstanding. BTW, I suggest how the actual war plans might not be in real - only apparent - conflict with your strategy in THIS POST (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2694734&postcount=12).

I will update the policy in line with your suggestions Bertie. I cross-posted with you earlier which is why my previous post didn't mention it.

I just don't want the war on India to exceed the objectives of the Policy without having it discussed first. I guess if you follow my instructions about proceeding until we have Delhi + Spices and the troops healed and stacked in Bombay, then we can stop and decide whether we target Madras next or prepare for the Dutch war.

I am concerned that the COA war plan as it stands today exceeds the authority it has from the Consul. I thought that it was this offices job to set the scope, and the COA was responsible for execution.

These are my expectations as well.

I am concerned that the COA war plan as it stands today exceeds the authority it has from the Consul. I thought that it was this offices job to set the scope, and the COA was responsible for execution.

Just to clarify to you, I only made secondary routes in the event if India does not accept our terms for peace. The Red Arrows are the Primary Routes and are under the terms of the objectives this department has set. The Green Arrows are Secondary Routes, thoes routes are only inplace incase India rejects our terms for peace.

Oy, the more I hear complaints that I am stepping on other peoples toes unintentionaly, the more I favor the government system of the old.

So you don't like it where the civilian authority sets the goals, and the military creates the plans to achieve those goals?

MB - what are the expectations of the Consul for External Affairs should the Indian government not accept our demands for peace after taking the two cities? Are we going to take only those two cities, and fight a defensive war with Indian while our main forces continue to the next objective? Or, will we want to continue to "persuade" the Indian government to accept peace, as outline in CG's plans?

-- Ravensfire

Oh hail great ruler king of trade, foreign affair and true commander of the military, Mad-Bax.

I was justing wondering if it is within your invinte wisdom to allow a small party of troops to conquer the indian city of Karachi? Although it is not in your "Grand Manifesto" this city is inside the area normally consided our nation. Thanks

So you don't like it where the civilian authority sets the goals, and the military creates the plans to achieve those goals?

Please disregard that message ravensfire. I take back that statement regarding beurocracy.

@Nobody - For starters, try toning down the wording since to me its kind of treading twards trolling.

Karachi would auto-raze, and we certainly don't want to build our own settler to send to the frozen wasteland. How about we let them offer it to us as partial payment towards their continued existence?

or we burn it to the ground to show our uncontrolable power

Just to be clear.

It is my understanding that the External Consulate set out who we go to war with, and the general timescale for the war. He/she sets the the objectives for the war (in other words, what we should acheive before stopping). This is all I have done.

The Director of commerce decides the exact date of the war.
The COA decides how many units of wichever type, attack which cities in which order from which tiles etc.

The governors decide which cities will build which type of units at what time.

So my expectation is this.

Step1. External consulate says "Declare war on India on or before 700BC, secure the iron near Bentley, secure a source of silks and prepare a launch point for attacking The Netherlands - Use peace negotiations to maximise territory"

Step2. COA says "In order to meet the External Consulates Objectives I need 12 swords, four horses, two spears and 3 catapults" I will attack this city from this tile on this date with these units. I will then move troops to this tile to attack this city..... until the objectives are met"

Step3. Governor says "In order to get the troops required by the COA I must build a sword in this town, a spear in this town, change this wonder build to catapult ...."

Step4. The Director of commerce says "At the current build rates the COA's troop requirements will be met on this date. It will take X turns to get into position. Therefore we declare war on this date."

Step5. The Director of Infrastructure says "According to the COA the battle plan aims to capture cities in this order. In order to speed reinforcements to the front line these X tiles should be roaded. City X has changed from spear to sword therefore we will mine a tile to allow it to build at 6spt instead of 5"

Then we fight the war until the External Consulates objectives are met. Which leads us to step 6.

Step6. External Consulates objectives are met. Will India accept peace?

a) Yes. Peace negotiations take place. The director of Expansion decides which cities (if there is a choice) should be taken in peace. The director of commerce decides which techs should be taken in peace.

b) No. Discussions take place as to whether we should continue on the offensive, or ignore India for a few turns and go after the Dutch anyway etc. There will be a vote on the options, since the new plan did not exist in the external consulates mandate (posted in the nominations thread at the time of his election, and in the Government thread the day after).

If I have misconstrued the constitution in any way then I would be grateful if someone could put me right. :)

I just read what happened in the turnchat, might i say we should judge people on what they do not on the silly things they post. Mad-bax well done we can get 2 citys from the indians.

I must admit, I went a bit beyond what was expected and whacked Madras too, interpreting the "get something for peace" part of the objectives to be higher priority. It was kinda there on a silver platter given the road was already in place, and destroying it denies India horses...

Now we're in a place where we can choose which 2 cities to take. :D

lol i might just CC daveshack, just for fun

No, the External Consulates instructions were not exceeded. It is clear that one of the objectives of the war was to gain territory from a peace deal. After the capture of Bombay we could not gain territory, and so the objectives were not met at that point. Razing Madras was a method of acheiving the objective, and was in-line with the COA instructions. My opinion was that after capturing two cities we could make peace for territory. I was wrong. But instructions must not be confused with opinion.

Later I asked that the turnchat be stopped after the capture of Bombay if there were no instructions from the COA or his instructions conflicted with mine. He did post instructions and they did not conflict with mine.

All in all, a perfectly played turnchat from my perspective. :goodjob:

No, the External Consulates instructions were not exceeded. It is clear that one of the objectives of the war was to gain territory from a peace deal. After the capture of Bombay we could not gain territory, and so the objectives were not met at that point. Razing Madras was a method of acheiving the objective, and was in-line with the COA instructions. My opinion was that after capturing two cities we could make peace for territory. I was wrong. But instructions must not be confused with opinion.

Later I asked that the turnchat be stopped after the capture of Bombay if there were no instructions from the COA or his instructions conflicted with mine. He did post instructions and they did not conflict with mine.

All in all, a perfectly played turnchat from my perspective.

I was kidding

It's OK Nobody, I was talking to Dave. :)

Consul,

In various threads we’ve spoken much about the need to war with the Dutch so I think the citizens of Fanatannia pretty well understand that it’s coming and are in agreement. Still, do we need a discussion thread and a poll about this just to dot the i’s and cross the t’s? If so, would it be useful to invite the Commander of the Armed Forces and the Commerce Director to jointly sponsor the thread so that we can have an integrated discussion about not only whether we should go to war, but the timing of the declaration and troop maneuvers?

The President has already asked the COA to start a discussion thread. In two minutes time I won't have internet access for 24 hours.

If you have the time and inclination, then you could set up official discussion threads and polls for:-

A. War on the Dutch. Objectives, timeframe and such.
B. Getting Persia into a war (with Byzantines, French and Chinese) before they get Middle Aged ;) and to force them into Monarchy instead of Republic.

You could also post a poll on making the Portuguese our next minor target whilst we build infra after switching to republic. There is already a discussion thread for this.

You don't have to ask in order to do this Bertie of course. You and I are fairly like-minded on these subjects which is why I asked you to help me, and so I am quite happy for you to post official discussions and polls for this office. We would only need to talk first where there is a substantial change of policy being considered. :)

In two minutes time I won't have internet access for 24 hours. ... If you have the time and inclination, then you could set up official discussion threads and polls for: ...

How can you live without internet access! :eek:

Anyway, I'm stealing time right now just to look at the forum, but I'll have time this evening to get some discussions & polls going, & will do so then.

I managed to get connected at my hotel by unplugging the lead at the back of the phone and dialling an international number. I don't know what the phone bill will be....:p

(Temporary) source of trade route to Portugal

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/DG550A.jpg

I found Mad-bax's second image in the uploads directory:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/DG550B.jpg

I managed to get connected at my hotel by unplugging the lead at the back of the phone and dialling an international number. I don't know what the phone bill will be....:p
Its your money :p

Its your money :p

Sounds like m-b has a lavish expense account. :goodjob:

I have decided to resign from the External Consul position. The reasons are given in the Judicial Thread.

:(

mad-bax, in my honest opinion, you have been the hardest working official yet this game. It sad to see you leave, but I see how you are concerned about what the External Consul is for (I as Domestic feel similarly, I have no 'immediate' power). Thanks for working this hard for 15 days, stay with us for the rest of the game if you will.

PS: I'm not sure if we have a midterm election so much as we have the President appoint someone.

I'm sorry you feel this way. Like Ginger_Ale, I honestly think you did a really good job. Rest assured, that if you want to be a Governor, I'll still vote for you.

I have decided to resign from the External Consul position. The reasons are given in the Judicial Thread.

just for the record can you say the mafia ran you out of town? but really it sucks that you are standing down, i hope it shows people that we need a real foreign affairs office (external console) with proper power. Good work taking one for the team.

Mad Bax

On one side, I am sorry to see you go, you are both a great person, humorist, strategic planner, intellectual and civplayer, and you really brought something good to this office.
From the Judicial thread perspective, I am the one backing up the empowerment of External Consul to balance Commercial Director and the Commander of Armed Forces, however, the other Justices interpretation made such a division of powers impossible, as I ended up in minority. I also called for an immediate reform of Articles C-E, to no avail, as it was responded to with apathy, scorn and irony from the usual suspects and to some extent understanding from a couple of players. Some people are yet to understand that a major overhaul of Articles C-E is needed to shape up the game.
That you are leaving due to this broken law was more or less inevitable, and I can only hope you will use this experience to bring about a major legal reform fixing up this problem in one big sweep.

I have decided to resign from the External Consul position. The reasons are given in the Judicial Thread.

I'm sorry about this. I've left my full response to your decision in the Judicial Thread. (My contribution to furthering everyone's carpal tunnel syndrome.)

Maybe I'll start a poll asking if the citizens agree we should dispense with the Constitution and declare martial law so we can get on with the game . . .

:)

Mad-bax,

This comes as quite a surprise, and you are clearly one of the most effective leaders I've had the pleasure of working with in the 4 demogames I've been associated with.

I have submitted a new Judicial Review which should provide the justices with a mechanism to say their earlier ruling was correct but incomplete. If a favorable ruling comes out of it I hope you will reconsider and rejoin the cabinet. :)

i have to resign due to the fact that the save wont open on my computer.

Thanks Dave, and thanks everyone. I was a little worried that I would be pillioried for running away. The government should fill the position in the way it is supposed to when an office becomes vacant. I didn't resign because I wanted my ego stroked, or to try to get my own way.

I did the best I could to do the job in the way that I thought was the intention of the constitution, and in a way that would promote at least the potential for a decent level of gameplay.

I resigned because I failed to convince people that playing it as a team, and in the spirit of a team is more effective and more enjoyable than playing it as a means to display ones prowess at pulling things apart. Saying the constitution is bad and will fail is a self fullfilling prophecy; and like a marriage it needs work and commitment and for people to try to make it a success otherwise it will indeed fail, as would any other constitution that you would care to poke a stick at.

I tried to show how it could work if other people would only try, but I obviously didn't try hard enough. :)

Well, I enjoyed having you as the External Consul, even if we did bash heads at every corner. You were one hard working individual who argued his beliefs quite well.

I resigned because I failed to convince people that playing it as a team, and in the spirit of a team is more effective and more enjoyable than playing it as a means to display ones prowess at pulling things apart. ...

I tried to show how it could work if other people would only try, but I obviously didn't try hard enough. :)

M-B: it's spring, and crops are still being planted. It takes awhile before we can reap what we sow. Patience.

I noticed that we can get peace with Japan for all of their gold (three pieces). We barely missed out on grabbing Nara; what did we do to them?! Should we make peace now or wait to see if we can grab the city?

*regentman turns around to notice that there is no one in the office and "Gone Fishin" is over the consoles office door*

I have an idea of someone to appoint to this office, but to be fair is there anyone else who is interested?

noticed that we can get peace with Japan for all of their gold (three pieces).

also they will give us satamus (i can't spell, so cc me)

@ RegentMan & Nobody:

Well, until Dave appoints a new External Consul, I guess I’m minding the store (and doing a lot of fishing!).

Thanks for your thoughts re Japan.

My thoughts:

1. We still have an MA with the Hittites against Japan, so until that expires I wouldn’t want to jeopardize it.
2. Do we really want to take one of the Japanese towns in a peace settlement? They’re at the other end of the world surrounded by potential foes. At the moment I don’t think it’s worth the trouble of taking such a town (it’d probably flip, anyway).
3. That leaves us with the 3 gold we could get from the Japanese. Nice, but hardly an inducement to ending the war. We want the rest of the world to be fighting as much as possible so they’ll be slow to develop their infrastructure. IMO it’s worth passing on the 3 gold in order to keep Japan at war.
4. With that said, we don’t want to actually fight the Japanese at the moment: we’re focused on the Dutch, and after them the Portuguese. If we see Japanese troops I think we’ll want to talk peace then. Or if the Japanese discover a tech and are willing to give it to us for peace, that would be worthwhile, too.
5. Although the External Consul prefers to remain at war with Japan for the time being, if you want peace you’re talking to the wrong office: the Director of Commerce has the power to declare wars and make peace. (Although I'm sure the Director would be very open to considering a treaty should the External Consul request one.)

Bottomline: I'm inclined against actively seeking peace with Japan at this time for the reasons I've outlined, but if you think my reasoning is weak or I've overlooked something, I invite you to set me on the path of correct thinking!

1. We still have an MA with the Hittites against Japan, so until that expires I wouldn’t want to jeopardize it.

i didnt relise this, and i don't remeber voting for it

Ah, didn't realize about the military alliance. In that case, forget about peace until it is finished.

@RegentMan & Nobody:

I just checked the save and noticed the MA against Japan expires quite soon. I still don't think we want the city, but I'm thinking it might be an interesting idea to take the city & gift it to another civ in hopes we'll be able to stir something up between that civ & the Japanese. This might be a lame idea, though, so I've started a discussion about it HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116992) .

I was about to suggest the same thing. :crazyeye:

@ RegentMan & Nobody:

Well, until Dave appoints a new External Consul, I guess I’m minding the store (and doing a lot of fishing!).

I thought that the deputy would automatically take charge. If that does not happen, then this constitution is truly :crazyeye: .

I thought that the deputy would automatically take charge. If that does not happen, then this constitution is truly :crazyeye: .

Hi Classical Hero,

I'm not interested in holding elected office at this point, so I asked our President to appoint a new External Consul. I'm holding down the fort until the new help arrives. At that time, I'll resign: a new person should appoint his own deputy.

Hi Classical Hero,

I'm not interested in holding elected office at this point, so I asked our President to appoint a new External Consul. I'm holding down the fort until the new help arrives. At that time, I'll resign: a new person should appoint his own deputy.
Have you read in the Judicary thread about Dave's proposed changes to the constitution? I think that finally this office will get the respect it deserves. We see a thread for this office, but not for the Director of Commerce. This shows that the External Consul is already doing that work, so why don't we give this offifce it's dues. Unfortunately this bad constitution has cost one person, hopefully you will be staying on as deputy.

No time to think about the demogame until this evening at the earliest, so this is a drive-by post. I just want to let anyone interested know that I think it’s time we open up a couple of discussions, which I’ll do ASAP (again, this evening at the earliest).

First, we’re about to go to war with the Dutch. Our policy has been a quick war, deprive them of iron, a luxury, & their food city, and then move on. However, we may want to rethink this, particularly since they are out of despotism and can’t pop rush any more.

Second, taking the wind out of India and the Netherlands and setting ourselves up to secure our continent have been Phase I of our Manifest Destiny. We need to start planning Phase II. We’ve already discussed attacking the Portuguese, so that will be the start of Phase II. It might be logical to take out the French and the Spanish during Phase II as well. And eventually we'll have to deal with China . . .

Here's the most recently revised version of our policy:

External Consulate - Policy for Term 2

Long Term Foreign Affairs

1. For the time being China should continue to be developed as a trading partner, and as a buffer against more distant civilizations.
2. Any demands made by civilizations further from us than China, or from India and the Netherlands, should be refused.
3. Once our nation has reached a size of 12 cities, no demands should be paid, and this paragraph supercedes paragraph 3 in this case.
4. When treasury allows, further embassies should be established and wars instigated between distant nations. The more tangled and complex the alliances the better.
5. Portugal and the Pyramids are a priority target for the time immediately following a government switch.

Long Term War Plans

1. War must be declared on The Netherlands on or before 400BC.
The aims of this war are:

a) Deprive The Netherlands of Iron
b) Deprive The Netherlands of Horses
c) Secure a source of Spices
d) Deprive the Netherlands of High Food City sites
e) Acquire a harbor on the northern shore of our continent
e) In order to satisfy these aims we should take the following cities: Ultrechect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, The Hague, Groningen, Holwerd, & Arnhem.
f) After we take these seven cities we will assess the situation, and most probably offer the Netherlands peace. In a peace treaty we should acquire technology, specifically the Republic if we haven’t already acquired it, and more territory.

2. War must be declared on Portugal on or before the year 0.
The aims of this war are:
a) Capture the Pyramids and the Statue of Zeus
b) Capture the cities of Lisbon, Oporto, Guimaraes
c) If feasible, eliminate Portugal from the map

Long Term Trading
1. Trading should be performed to maximize profit.
2. Monopoly techs should not be bought unless a subsequent 2 for 1 deal (or better) is available.
3. Strategic and Luxury commodities should not be sold to Countries that we believe we may be at war with during this term.
4. No GPT based deals should be entered into with any Country that we believe we may be at war with within the following 20 turns.
6. A harbor should be built in a town that is connected to our capital as soon as is practicable; or acquired in war with the Netherlands.

Do you want me to paste this into the first post?
Maybe you could start your own thread?
Good job BTW. Dave's in no hurry to replace you is he? ;)

@mad-bax, if you could post the revised policy into the first post that would be great. No need to start my own thread; I think that might just confuse things.

And thanks much!

im kinda new around and i want to help in anyway please forgive my newbish posts but i would like to contribute to this office so i'm ready and waiting to help out if you need

Hi, Kentharu, welcome aboard! I’m actually a n00b at the demogame too!

Is there a particular area where you’d like to help? Or are you just offering your general help?

Some background on what we’re trying to accomplish: we’re trying for a 130,000 point cultural win (we’re playing on a big map, so that’s why it’s not 100,000 points). We’ve decided the best way to achieve this is to battle the rest of the civs in order to acquire as much territory as will just take us to the domination limit. Then we’ll expand like crazy, fill each town with temples, libraries, etc. We’re going to need somewhere between 100 – 200 towns, so we need a lot of territory.

The External Consulate has been focused on developing a strategy for how to acquire that territory. Thus far we’ve had an initial war with India (we’ll have another later); and are about to begin a war with the Dutch (we’ll have a second war later with them, too). After that we’re going to take on the Portuguese in order to annex the Pyramids.

We’re currently developing our post-Portuguese strategy vis-a-vis other civs IN THIS THREAD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117111). One thing that would be really useful is if you could develop some ideas and contribute to the thread.

Thanks for your offer of help! And I’ll certainly think of some additional things for you to do.

thank you Bertie. i was hoping to help out with the tech trade with other civs but whatever i can do to help ill do it just give me something to do. . i just finished reading the thread you suggested and the cultural victory we are striving for seems a bit out of reach but if we do breack through the dutch and take the pyramids then things look bright. i personally have never acheived a cultural victory in any single player games so i don't know how much help ill be

Current State of the External Consulate:

We currently are at war with the Dutch and are discussing how long to extend the war IN THIS THREAD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117314).

Our peace treaty with India has expired. We are discussing whether to extend it IN THIS THREAD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117372).

We plan to enter into some MAs in order to get the other half of the world fighting, and are discussing this IN THIS THREAD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117375).

After the Dutch our next military objective is the Great Pyramids, and we're wondering whether we'll need to enter into ROPs in order to transport troops. Discussion is IN THIS THREAD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117376).

Currently we are strong militarily against all other civs, and we have moved up in score from being pathetic to middle-of-the-pack. Current rankings:

The Netherlands, 602
The Byzantines, 471
France, 434
Persia, 416
Maya, 408
Spain, 409
Fanatannia, 378
China, 341
Japan, 337
India, 327
The Hittites, 303
Portugal, 267

We only have two embassies established (China & the Hittites) but will be establishing more next turnchat.