Since we now know the exact number of civs, we can make more concrete speculations how the final civ list will look like. I think we there is a couple of civs that will most likely be included ( and I think they were in the previous games, but I'm not sure about Civilization I )

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China

Also, there are some regions which definately need to be represented:

12. Mesopotamia ( Sumeria, Babylon or Assyria. They chose Babylon in III and II, and Sumeria is included in C3C so maybe they try something new and take Assyria? )
13. Mesoamerica ( Most likely Maya or Aztecs, or maybe Olmecs, Toltecs or Zapotecs? I don't really know anything about their historical significance)
14. North America (My bet would be on Sioux or Iroquois, but there are countless other tribes)
15. Africa (It's a whole continent! It needs at least one civ. I don't think it will be the Zulus again. There are so many alternatives. Mali, Ethiopia or Bantu maybe? )

This would leave only 4 other civs, as I'm pretty sure they include the above. I just can't imagine a Civ without Rome, France or China.

Other likely candidates:
- America/USA ( I didn't put them in the first list because some think it is to modern to be considered a civ, but I think it's included anyway, simply because of it's enormous influence in the last 200 years and because most of the civ players live there)
- Arabia (Religion is included in the game, so there should be one islamic civ, and as Islam originated in Arabia, I can't think of a better one)
- Ottomans/Turks ( if not Arabia, then they should be in)
- Persia (huge empire in ancient times, but IMHO not such a sure candidate as the 11 above)
- Spain, Vikings, Celts ( I was pretty surprised when they weren't in Civ III, but Europe is already pretty crowded without them)
- Mongols (They had the biggest empire in world history, pretty spectacular)

Other possible but not so likely candidates:
- An SE-Asian Civ (Khmer? To be honest I've never heard of them before coming here, but a lot of people seem to be requesting them)
- Hebrews ( Same as Arabia, a jewish nation wouldn't hurt)
- All the PTW and C3C-Civs not mentioned yet ( Inca, Hittites, Byzantines, Netherlands, Portugal, Carthage[ or Phoenicians], Korea)


So my final guess would be:
1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. Assyria
13. Maya
14. Sioux
15. Mali
16. America
17. Arabia
18. Mongols
19. Hebrews ( Just to add a Civ nobody expects)

What are your ideas?

My guess is the original 16 civs of Civ3, plus Carthage, the Mayans, and Ottomans

BTW, I think the Iroquois are 100 times better qualified than the Souix as a candidate. I also think you vastly underestimate Persia.

Other things to consider is that Korea is a large game market, and they might include them just to boost sales.

There are plenty of choices I'd like to suggest, but I think that what I said above is the most likely.

At the moment, I'd guess as the dead-set obvious:
1. England
2. France
3. Germany
4. Rome
5. Greece
6. Russia
7. China
8. India
9. Zulus
10. America
11. Aztecs
12. Egypt
13. Babylon
14. Iroquois / Sioux / etc.

The last five might be:
15. Mongolia
16. Japan
17. Incas
18. Persia
19. Korea

That's not to say having a civ like Mali or the Khmer wouldn't be a welcome addition, it's just it isn't bloody likely. But as long as they include Mongolia, I'll be happy :)

I think it likely that the Zulu will be tossed in favor of a more significant African civ.

There are a bunch that can't possibly be left out:

Rome
Greece
China
India
Persia
England
France
Germany
Japan
Russia
Babylon
Egypt

A few that are very unlikely to be left out:

America
Aztecs

And a bunch that are tossups:

Mongols
Zulus
Mali
Inca
Maya
Iroquois
Hebrews
Vikings
Arabia
Spain
Celts
Turks

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. Babylon
13. Aztecs
14. Sioux
15. Polynesia
16. Austria
17. Arabia
18. Mongols
19. Persia

I basically took Ovxford's list and changed a few things

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. Babylon
13. Aztecs
14. Sioux
15. Polynesia
16. Austria
17. Arabia
18. Mongols
19. Persia

I basically took Ovxford's list and changed a few things

Replace those with Mali/Zulu and America

I don't think Ottomans/Turks will be left out in the new game. Polynesia and Austria have low chance i think. Also think the new religion concept, there is only one muslim civ (arabia) in the lists above, some have persia and that's all.

I think it likely that the Zulu will be tossed in favor of a more significant African civ.

Why?

Wouldn't it be more likely that a civ that has been in all versions of civ so far still be in it?

There were 16 civs in civ3. The mongols would be a logical inclusion, since they were in the original 14 civs in civ1. The other two civs will be chosen to balance the different culture groups/geographical distribution. My guess would be the incans and the arabs.

I reckon...

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. Russia
6. England
7. Celts
9. America
10. Aztecs
11. Zulu
12. Mongols OR Ottomans (could easily be either)
13. Babylon
14. Persia
15. China
16. Japan
17. Egypt
18. Arabs
19. India

Personally, I would applaud loudly if America got 'downgraded' from a Major playable civ to a minor civ-especially if it appeared after a civil war by a Western European civ. I would then fill the vacancy it produces with an African civ-most likely Ethiopia or Mali.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I would like to see:

Rome
Greece
Egypt
Germany
France
England
Russia
Persia
Babylon
Zulu
Suiox or Iroquies
India
Aztecs, or maybe Maya
China
Japan
Mongolia
Ottoman empire
Arabia
Inca or some Poloneisian civ

and as for extra civs... don't get me started

I don't think Ottomans/Turks will be left out in the new game. Polynesia and Austria have low chance i think. Also think the new religion concept, there is only one muslim civ (arabia) in the lists above, some have persia and that's all.

Persia would be Zoranostracism (sp?)

Not for the past 1300+ years...Since then, it's been one of the most staunchly (Shiite) Islamic nations in the world. The Persians would add a balance to historical Islam, since the Arabs are Sunni. And don't forget, Egypt has been Muslim as long as Persia has. In any case, who says religion is going to be tied to civs? In my opinion, it is possible, even likely, that the game's religion structure would allow Judaism to pop up in China, Christianity to appear in Incaland or whatever they'd call it, Islam to appear in France, and Buddhism to appear in Arabia!

I hope that the religion system isn't that random! For one thing, Christianity and Islam should only appear in or near Jewish regions.

You are thinking too inflexibly! I agree with you that perhaps Christianity and Islam shouldn't be established where Judaism isn't known, but if by "Jewish regions" you mean "in places where the religion is Judaism" that isn't really the case; the Arabs were pagans who knew many Jews and Christians and there were some Christian Arabs and also a fair number of Jews in Arabia (Medina, for example, was populated by two large tribes of Arabs and three smaller ones of Jews). And if you're playing with culturally-linked start locations off (or even if they're on!) you could get the thing I outlined, if the Chinese Judaism spread to neighboring Incaland and France! That's the wonderful thing about civ--things can happen that are radically different from history.

QUEBEC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VIVE LE QUEBEC LIBRE. But maybe it isn't big enough to be a civ. my choice:

1-Rome
2-Greece
3-England
4-France (but louis XIV as a leader)
5-Persia
6-Babylon
7-Japan
8-Maya
9-China
10-India
11-Iroquois, Sioux or Algoquines
12-Germany
13-Egypt
14-Carthage
15-Mogol
16-Spain
17-Aztecs
18-Zululand
19-Australians aborigens, I don't remenber their name.

Of the 32 civs in Civ III-PTW-C3C, I don't think I could possibly guess which one of those, in addition to any new civs, would be in Civ IV.

Why do people keep leaving out America? It's going to be in there. Most American gamers will want to play as their Civ, and Firaxis probably wants those sales! America is definetely in.

Why do people keep leaving out America? It's going to be in there. Most American gamers will want to play as their Civ, and Firaxis probably wants those sales! America is definetely in.

I completely agree with you. America will be in the game for all the Americans playing it.

You are right. I forgot it, maybe as my 19 civ. But it is clear that there is not enough non-western civilizations.

I think the zulu should be replaced with Ethiopia... as.. they were the only african empire to never to conqured by colonials (until italy, briefly in the 1930s).

I agree that there will quite a few civilizations are most definitely in. Rome, Greece, Egypt, England, France, Germany, Russia, China, and Japan are all in without a doubt. I would also be very surprised if India and Persia were not included (although IMO neither is *quite* as obvious a choice as the first nine, although they come very close), and at least one Mesopotamian civ, one Mesoamerican civ, one North American Indian civ, and one African civ are all good bets. That leaves four slots. I'm going to guess that the Americans are back in (because they always have), and the Vikings, Spanish, and Mongols all have a fairly good chance. However, I'm hoping that there will be a little less focus on Europe, and that there will be some more African, SE Asian, Pacific Island/Australian, and/or Native American representation.

What confuses me, however, is the number of civs. Why, of all numbers, did they pick 19?? :confused:

Personally, I would applaud loudly if America got 'downgraded' from a Major playable civ to a minor civ-especially if it appeared after a civil war by a Western European civ. I would then fill the vacancy it produces with an African civ-most likely Ethiopia or Mali.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
As would I!

However...
Why do people keep leaving out America? It's going to be in there. Most American gamers will want to play as their Civ, and Firaxis probably wants those sales! America is definetely in.
This is true.

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. America
13. Zulu
14. Iroquois
15. Aztecs
16. Turks
17. Mongols
18. Babylon
19. Vikings

These are the Civ's I would like to see.
I wish there was a Polynesian Civ, but it probably won't happen.

Only 19 civs :sad: I hope people cam make mods with more then 19.

I say Keep America in cause the game is made by us Americans, we have the right to put our country in our games.

I really thinks Austria-Hungary should be in, along with Great Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Russia, Rome, Greece and Viking to form the civs from Europe.

How could America get any more downgraded? It's already one of the weakest civs in the game.

Is it certain that they said 19 civs is all that will go into Civ4? Or is it that they've only agreed to 19 civs so far? 19 is such an unusual number that I don't see how this could be the final decision.

19-Australians aborigens, I don't remenber their name.

I think polynesians would be better than aborigenes, abos would be just like zulu.

I completely agree with you. America will be in the game for all the Americans playing it.

even if it wasnt for the sales, america should be included because they are so important to the world, civilization didnt end in 1800,

I hope the list will look something like this:

Definate Civilizations
Rome
Egypt
Greece
Babylon
Persia
France
England
Germany
Russia
India
China
Japan
Aztecs
Inca

These are also civilizations but not necessarily in the game
Spain
Nubia
Ethiopia
Turks
Arabs
Israel

And now you may wonder why I haven't written one single North American civilization and that's because, don't hate me, I can't find any. A tribe is not a civilization, neither is a 200 years old country one. You can't compare any North American cultures with the ones on the list above. I also thought about Scandinavia a lot :D. It is a culture more than a thousand years old. The reason why I skipped it is that there has never really been a Scandinavia. It might even be so that the Scandinavians rather see themselves not represented than represented as one... :lol:

As you might have noticed my list contains 20 civilizations. I just can't let anyone of them go. Israel is too important, Africa must be represented with it's ancient civilizations and none of the Europeans civilizations above can be ignored. Help me!

And now you may wonder why I haven't written one single North American civilization and that's because, don't hate me, I can't find any. A tribe is not a civilization, neither is a 200 years old country one. You can't compare any North American cultures with the ones on the list above. I also thought about Scandinavia a lot :D. It is a culture more than a thousand years old. The reason why I skipped it is that there has never really been a Scandinavia. It might even be so that the Scandinavians rather see themselves not represented than represented as one... :lol:

As you might have noticed my list contains 20 civilizations. I just can't let anyone of them go. Israel is too important, Africa must be represented with it's ancient civilizations and none of the Europeans civilizations above can be ignored. Help me!

Greece wasn't a single nation until 1821 AD, either. Every now and then there was a great alliance for the good of Hellas, but mostly they just fought amongst each other. Scandinavian culture was never one Scandinavia, but a collection of empires/kingdoms/city-states/republics, etc. fighting, just like Greece. They shared the same gods amongst themselves, used the same technology, and did one thing the Greeks did too, unite the entire region under one ruler for an incredibly short period of time (Canute with the Scandinavians, Alexander III with the Greeks). Everyone seems to agree that Greece should go in, why not the very similar Viking/Scandinavians?

1. Rome: logical
2. Egypt: logical
3. Greece: logical
4. Persia: logical
5. India: logical
6. Mesopotamia: Either Babylon, Sumeria or Assyria
7. China: logical
8. Japan: logical
9. Korea: boost sales
10. France: logical
11. Germany: logical
12. England/British: logical whatever you call it (see various threads)
13. America: The game comes from there, it's a good civ and it boosts sales
14. Russia: logical
15. Iroquois: North American local representant
16. Aztec: Latin American representant
17: Zulu: African representant
18. Ethiopia or Mali: African representant
19. Inca or Khmer or Spain: Complete South America or Asia or boost sales.

speaking in culture groups, we'd have:
Europe: 4
Mediterranean: 3
Middle East: 2
Africa: 2
America: 3
Asia: 4

+ either one European, one Asian or one American.

--> The world would be pretty balanced! In civ3, they put Middle East and Africa together, because they are so few. But with Additions, these would pretty soon get filled up!

mfG mitsho

PS: These are not the civs I'd want. Ottomans, Arabs or Vikings would really deserve to get in, but I do not see much chance for this.

Lets not forget the Iroquis Nation was a republican federation. Some historians believed that Benjamin Franklin wanted to adopt a single-house senate similair to the one used by the Iroquis Nation.

______________________________________________

I think the reason that the Zulu are used instead of the Songhay, Ethiopians, or even the Kongolese was that few Americans know who King Alfonso is but almost everyone knows Shaka Zulu.

__________________________________________________ _

Aztec really is not Latin America. That part of the world only became Latin after the Spanish colonized it and wiped out the indigenous culture.

And in a way, he did get it--in his home state of Pennsylvania, there was one house, the Assembly, and a three-man executive council. However, Madison got his way in the national government, and we've had that system with a considerable amount of acrimony ever since (once, a young Democratic representative talked about the Republicans as "the enemy". His party leader corrected him: The Senate is the enemy. The Republicans are the opposition.)

@sir_schwick, I know that they are not Latin America. BUT I couldn't think of a proper name, because Mesoamerica does leave out Southern America. I didn't think much, and that was the best name I could think of in the moment. It's not that important what name we give to a region, isn't it?

mfG mitsho

Greece wasn't a single nation until 1821 AD, either. Every now and then there was a great alliance for the good of Hellas, but mostly they just fought amongst each other. Scandinavian culture was never one Scandinavia, but a collection of empires/kingdoms/city-states/republics, etc. fighting, just like Greece. They shared the same gods amongst themselves, used the same technology, and did one thing the Greeks did too, unite the entire region under one ruler for an incredibly short period of time (Canute with the Scandinavians, Alexander III with the Greeks). Everyone seems to agree that Greece should go in, why not the very similar Viking/Scandinavians?

Greece has had a national culture for four(?)thousand years. And they have been one country for 180 years now, and when they were city states fighting eachother they would more or less always stop the fighting whenever a foreign power would attack. Scandinavia, on the other hand, has never had the national culture the way Greece has had for long. Although the Scandinavian countries have always been very much alike, they have never, but once, been united and that was not by Canute. Canute ruled Denmark, Norway and England, not Sweden. Margareta ruled Denmark, Norway and Sweden in the 1300's. This was the only real union. Later on in the beginning of the 1500's Denmark tried to unite Scandinavia but did not succeed. Denmark and Sweden fought eachother for about 300 years after that. With other words: Greece is a nation and Scandinavia is not.

And as a Swede, I would of course like to see my country represented in the game. But then I'd rather see Sweden with a golden age in the 1600's when Sweden ruled North Europe :D . Well, actually i find Europe very crowded and as you can see on my list Scandinavia would be the European country that has affeceted world history the least. And it hasn't really been much of a civilization if you compare it to the other European countries on my list. But I most definatly agree that the Vikings are important and as a conclusion I would say that if there would only be more civilizations in the game I would vote them in.

Logical
1. China
2. India
3. Persia
4. Mongolia
5. Russia
6. Germany
7. France
8. England
9. Rome
10. Greece
11. Egypt
12. Zulu
13. America
14. Aztecs
15. Babylon
16. Japan

Probably
17. Iroquois
18. Inca
19. Mali

Why do people keep leaving out America? It's going to be in there. Most American gamers will want to play as their Civ, and Firaxis probably wants those sales! America is definetely in.

Im american, and i couldn't care less if they leave or take out the Americans... but if i had to choose one i would say leave them in because they are the world superpower in the moment and this game isnt just in the ancient game.... its in the modern too. thats like taking out the Mayans because they arent in the industrial age...

I play as Dutch more than anything and, i havent seen them in one of these lists yet.

But..... it is doubtful that they will be in civ 4... I will hope for some more expansion packs later down the road to add the lost civilizations, and maybe add some new ones... i mean, it doesnt hurt to have 32 civilizations...

How could America get any more downgraded? It's already one of the weakest civs in the game.

until modern age, but even then it is pretty weak.

1. Assyria
2. Israel
3. Pheonicia
4. Babylon
5. Coptic
6. Abyssinia
7. Ashanti
8. Gaul
9. Celtic
10. Soviet Union
11. Scandinavia
12. Inuit
13. Apache (Anasazi)
14. Brazil
15. Khmer
16. Polynesians
17. Yanks
18. Confederates
19. Australians

*Austria-Hungry(Magyar)
*Poles
*Portuguesse
*Mongols
*Canadians
*China
*India
*Japan
*Persia
*Mali
*Spain
*British
*Netherlands
*Venetians
*Aztecs
*Maya
*Inca
*Argentina
*Germany
*Ottoman
*Hawaiian

Damn, before I wrote this I thought 19 Civs was alot and included all these, but I guess not. I'm not gunna guess, but I like the ones I listed most.

Oh I forgot the most important ones:
*Rome
*Greece

I remembered Turks before Greeks, what has this world come to.

just because of the historical significance they had in shaping the world i would like to see the following:

austria-hungarian empire (dominated europe for several centuries)
portuguese (at one time divided the world in half with the spanish - each "owned" half of the world)
italy (the cultural impact they had on the rest of the world with the renaissance)

just my 2 cents :)

Right. Austria made a big difference in Europe history, but they aren't alone to have done this. Maybe it will be in, maybe in a future expansion, I dunno. In Italy case, I not sure if it should be in, but it' strue they were important.

I'll give two lists.
First the ones I think that are in and 2nd the list I would like.

First List (the ones I think will be in)
1 America\US (game is made there)
2 Rome
3 China
4 India
5 Greece
6 Egypt
7 Babylon
8 Persia
9 Japan
10 England
11 France
12 Germany
13 Russia
14 Aztecs
15 Zulu
16 Iroquois
17 Inca
18 Koreans
19 Arabs

Second List (My Favorites) Please remember everybody has his or her favorite.
I'm for instance not that overly interested in all those ancient civs.
1 Rome (maybe they could make it so that through the ages it is renamed to Italy)
2 Greece
3 England
4 France
5 Germany
6 Russia
7 Spain
8 Dutch
9 Iroquois
10 Maya
11 Inca
12 Arabs
13 Egypt
14 Ethiopia/Nubia (in ancient times the name Ethiopia included the Nubians)
15 Turks/Ottomans (don't care under which name they put them in the game, as long as they are in)
16 India
17 China
18 Japan
19 Malay (including al the austronesian people living in the present country's of Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines)

But I'm hoping for a good editor to edit more civs in. Because I want many more civs especially flavor ones.

What I'd like to see:

Rome
Greece
Turks
India
China
Japan
Germans
Maya
Inca
Aztecs
France
England
Persia
Arabs
Egypt
Mali
Russia
Polynesia

My best guess as to reality:

Rome
Greece
Egypt
America
Russia
Germany
England
Babylon
China
India
Japan
Iroquois
Aztecs
France
England
Persia
Spain
Mongols
Arabs

Carthage anyone?

Since we now know the exact number of civs, we can make more concrete speculations how the final civ list will look like. I think we there is a couple of civs that will most likely be included ( and I think they were in the previous games, but I'm not sure about Civilization I )

(...)

So my final guess would be:
1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. Assyria
13. Maya
14. Sioux
15. Mali
16. America
17. Arabia
18. Mongols
19. Hebrews ( Just to add a Civ nobody expects)

What are your ideas?

:( Unfortunatelly that seems not very different from the truth.
France, Germany and US can't be out for commercial reasons.
Maybe 12 is another from the same area and 14 can be Iroquois...
And I'd like to see the one you all know in, but Sid only discovered us quite recently.

1. Assyria
2. Israel
3. Pheonicia
4. Babylon
5. Coptic
6. Abyssinia
7. Ashanti
8. Gaul
9. Celtic
10. Soviet Union
11. Scandinavia
12. Inuit
13. Apache (Anasazi)
14. Brazil
15. Khmer
16. Polynesians
17. Yanks
18. Confederates
19. Australians

*Austria-Hungry(Magyar)
*Poles
*Portuguesse
*Mongols
*Canadians
*China
*India
*Japan
*Persia
*Mali
*Spain
*British
*Netherlands
*Venetians
*Aztecs
*Maya
*Inca
*Argentina
*Germany
*Ottoman
*Hawaiian

Damn, before I wrote this I thought 19 Civs was alot and included all these, but I guess not. I'm not gunna guess, but I like the ones I listed most.
Rome, Greece, China & India fail to appear in all the lists from now on!!! :eek:
SCANDAL in the senate. You are overrun and this thread enters in a state of Anarchy ;)

Well here goes mine 19 civilizations and why they should be in Civ4.Please send comments(I left portugal out for my regret as well the mayas and aztecs)

I hope to see you opinos very soon.


1)Germany: Because it had an enormus amount of influence for good or bad during the period of 1939_1945. Yes Lets face it If Germany would have won the war half the planet will be speaking german right now(please I never liked the Nazis, I'm just saying this in terms of importance in History)Germany must be In civ 4.The leader should still be Bismark

2)America: Like it or not America is the most Powerful country in the world today. Its economy and military can not be matched by any nation in the world.If it wasn't for teh american Europe will be part of Germany and The Nazis would have won.Leader should be FDR

3)France: If it wasn't because iof teh french america would still be colonies of the British. Besides Th french had an normus impact on the history of Europe in the Napolionic era. Also conquerer a lot of territory during the age of imperialism. Leader should be Napoleon.

4)England/Britan: Beside having an Empire which consisted of 20% of the earth.They were the People who stopped both napoleon and The Nazis.(of course the weren't the only ones, but the had a bigger role)They created te american Colonies which at th end became the strongest nation in the world.leader should be Churchill.

5)Spain:The were the ones who kicked the muslims out of europe(not mentioning the Ottoman Empire)Also was the most power country the 1600's Because of all the gold and silver brought from the Americas. Conquerer half a continent, and created a new Kind of culture(the Latin America Culture). Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world after mandarin from China.leader should be Philiip the second.

6)Autria: An inmense and powerful empire in Europe. They were the ones who stop the spread of the ottoman empire in Europe.was involve in all of the most important wars of Europe(during ww2 they were part of the reich but other easter erupean nations resisted the Nazis) Leader should be Josefh.

7)China: THe second biggest country after russian, with the biggest population in the world.A magnificent ancient history which influence most o asia and other parts of the world. The were the one who discovered Gun podwer.If it wasn't for that european would never have discovered and conquerer other parts of the world. Leader Mao

8)Japan: The second biggest economy, conquer most of easter Asia during the Period of 1936-1945(1905 won land from Russia,1910 anexed Korea to the Empire of japan)A magnificent ancient culture and a ability to adapt to new technology(japan became industralize in 50 years). Leader should be Toguawa( i don't know if you spell it like that.

9)Russia(Maybe Soviet Union): Beisdes being the biggest country in the world, had always influence history, this is more true in Europe, Where the helped in the fall of Napoleon, The Kaiser of germany, and The Nazis. Also cretated a Comunist regime that lasted 70 years and influence half the world.Leader should be Lenin or Peter the Great.

10)Inca: The biggest and more power native american civilization.Had a vast knowledge of the starts astrology, astronomy, Construction. The build enormous monuments that still are not easy to explain,People can't explain how the Incas who stayed on the stone age were able to build palaces in top of the andes. Machu Pichu is the most know monuments that were left by the incas. Leader should be Pachacutic.

11)Egypt: one of the oldest civilizations of the world builders of monuments like the Pyramids who until the 1800's were the tallest buildings in the world. Influence most of the acient History of Africa, Asia and Europe.Leader should be Ramses the 2

12)Rome: Had control of the mediterranean sea.United differente cultures into one Empire, and give the world things like Christianity,war formations and organizations,and the idea of republic.Leader should be Julius Cesar.

13)Greece: Most of the things Europeans consider European were brough from Greece, Rome was an image of greece. Greece is the transition from anciente history to a modern one.They had great thinkers who agve us importan ideas and anwers to question about our world. Lader should be Alexander

14)The Arab Empire: One of the biggest empires of the world, rich in culture, traditions and inventions, the gave us the second most folloed religons in the world. Almost conquered Europe , the were only stopped by the franks in th e battle of tours.Leader should be Mohamend.

15)Mongols: The biggest empire in the whole world at the time. the mongols controled China, India, Russia,Persia and even parts of Europe. They imporved trade routes between Europe and Asia.Leader Guesgis Khan.

16)the vikings: Only their names made Europeans scare. They inavded and transform Europe and russia, were the first non native american who stood in the Americas 500 years before columbus, Inveted one of the best ships in the world , and ists avilty to win battles are still admirable. leader should be Erik the red.

17) India: has the second biggest population in the world, considered the gem in the British crownat the time, stopped the advance of alexander the great, also had a big role in both world war 1 and 2.leader should be Ghandii.

18) Netherlands: Not a big country but had an normous tarde empire. the y controled trade rules going to the americas Asia and Africa. Founded what is now Mahattan oneof the richest cities in the world.had an Empire which consisted of South Africa(Cape of good hope, which then was anexed to the briths empire) and Indonesia as well ass some lands in south America. leader Willia, of Orange.

19)Israek: also one of the most ancient civilization, had endurer persectution, genocide, has one of the oldest religions, and became the most powerfukl nation of the middle east, comdem by some , admire by others, these people had influence the history of the Middle east for ever. Leader should be Abraham.


what do you think?
__________________

yeah i posted that in another thread. i just want more peple to see it

Do I have to post here what I think about that list too? ;)

6)Austria: An inmense and powerful empire in Europe. They were the ones who stop the spread of the ottoman empire in Europe.was involve in all of the most important wars of Europe(during ww2 they were part of the reich but other easter erupean nations resisted the Nazis) Leader should be Josefh.

Well, you don't include Ottomans, who will Austrians stop?

14)The Arab Empire: One of the biggest empires of the world, rich in culture, traditions and inventions, the gave us the second most folloed religons in the world. Almost conquered Europe , the were only stopped by the franks in th e battle of tours.Leader should be Mohamend.

I think you do not have any detailed knowledge about Islam. Mohammad cannot be the leader in the game, because picturing him is forbidden. That's why producers chose Abu Bakr as a leader in ptw.

15)Mongols: The biggest empire in the whole world at the time. the mongols controled China, India, Russia,Persia and even parts of Europe. They imporved trade routes between Europe and Asia.Leader Guesgis Khan.

16)the vikings: Only their names made Europeans scare. They inavded and transform Europe and russia, were the first non native american who stood in the Americas 500 years before columbus, Inveted one of the best ships in the world , and ists avilty to win battles are still admirable. leader should be Erik the red.

18) Netherlands: Not a big country but had an normous tarde empire. the y controled trade rules going to the americas Asia and Africa. Founded what is now Mahattan oneof the richest cities in the world.had an Empire which consisted of South Africa(Cape of good hope, which then was anexed to the briths empire) and Indonesia as well ass some lands in south America. leader Willia, of Orange.

I think we must consider "playable" civilizations in civ4. these are powerful civilizations, but considering the market of the game, most are in "civilized" countries of europe, america and asia. their history is against such civilizations, not for. I think these will be non-playable civilizations.


19)Israel: also one of the most ancient civilization, had endurer persectution, genocide, has one of the oldest religions, and became the most powerfukl nation of the middle east, comdem by some , admire by others, these people had influence the history of the Middle east for ever. Leader should be Abraham.


what do you think?
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I don't think they will even include Israel as a non-playable civ. They are important, but their existence as today's world is hard to implement in the game. Just adding a new civ and giving them rel and com traits does not make them Israel.

19)Israel: also one of the most ancient civilization, had endurer persectution, genocide, has one of the oldest religions, and became the most powerfukl nation of the middle east, comdem by some , admire by others, these people had influence the history of the Middle east for ever. Leader should be Abraham.


what do you think?
__________________

Maybe on expansion.
Having the leader be a prophet would be attacked by Muslims, especially as Abraham is greatly revered by Muslims. Have it be one of the Hasmoneans. By the way, having Abu Bakr as the Arab leader was only a little less offensive than that. Try Saladin next time.

I like how you have the Netherlands german soldier..... i <3 the netherlands

Yeah, u r right nebuchadnesssar , i forgot that in the muslim world picturing him is forbidden. Saladin is a better option,Because he was the one who kicked out the infidels(crusaders) from palestine. Sorry for the mistake, and about Abraham, ummmm i don't know, jeus is also consider a prophet in the muslim world, but jesus is the main character of the christian faith as Abraham is to the jewish faith.I don't think anybody wants to see Ariel Sharon as the leader of Israel??? But it can also be Moses, the real insult to muslims would be to put the founder of moder israel as leader (i really feel bad because of what happened to the jews but i don't believe that what they did was fair to muslims) .........Oh know the leader of Israel could be King David the founder of ancient Israel, well he united the 12 tribes of Israel. well thanx for your opinons.

i have a sneaky suspiction that the austrailians will be included in civ4 for the same reasons as you mentioned for america

Why is everyone not listing America? It's going to be in there.

Probably...

Have to be in... for reality reasons
1. Rome
2. England
3. Greece
4. Egypt
5. China
6. Persia
7. Babylon
8. Aztecs... or Maya... or Inca
9. Mongols
10. Ottomans (surprised they weren't in before PTW)

Have to be in... for market purposes :mischief:
11. Germany
12. France
13. US
14. Japan

We also need... in my opinion
15. A Russia/Mongolia civ
16. India
17. An African civ... I imagine it will probably be the Zulus, although Mali would do.
18. A Native American civ i.e Sioux... probably Iroquois since they are so popular in Civ3
19. Portugal... although they shouldn't be so lame this time :)

Assuming religion is going to work the way I think it will, we won't explicitly need to have religious civs like Hebrews, Arabs etc... but I could think of another couple of dozen of civs that should be in the expansions, so who knows...

1. America
2. Soviets
3. China
4. India
5. France
6. Germany
7. Britain
8. Japan
9. Space Pirates
10. African Alliance
11. Brazil
12. Austrialia
13. Pacifica
14. Microsoft Robotics
15. Antarcticons
16. The Atlantic Holdings Corporation
17. The Ottoman Empire
18. Indonesia
19. Pan-Arab Alliance

14. Microsoft Robotics
As if I had to ask what their UU could be?

As if I had to ask what their UU could be?The Windozer, a Giant Death Robot that destroys its opponants by launching a small probe that infects their circuitry with nasty viruses and buggy software!

Probably...
19. Portugal... although they shouldn't be so lame this time :)
IF naval warfare is going to continue almost ireelevant as it is right now, we are convicted to that. Portugal depends a lot on sea power...

If they were to have sea currents in it, and make the seas a more complex terrain, it would be smart to use seafaring civs like Dutch, Scandinavia, England, Portugal, and thats it i think... :-/ America is gonna be in the game whether u people like it or not... but ill say this. The game isnt just up to the Mid Ages, it has industrial and modern... and america has been the world superpower for nearly all of the modern age.. How could they not be in the game?

In a game that starts in 4000BC adn ends in 2000AD, with civilizations that endure milenia out, yes they could be out too.

NO. Q : Where does the game from?
A : America
Q : What is the greatest pool of civ players?
A : America
Q : Name one of the civ that are in.
A : America
America isn't there because of there history, but because that LOTS of americans ill want to say themselves in the game. I'd prefer another civ, but it WILL be in.

India and the Mongols are in per references to their leaders ("Gandhi" and "the Khan") in a preview article.

It also seems that the Aztecs, Japanese, and Persians are in (according to this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117918) thread).

Boom. goldflash List.

1. India
2. Mongolia
3. Aztecs
4. Japan
5. Persia
6. Rome
7. Greece
8. Babylon
9. Egypt
10. England
11. France
12. Russia
13. Germany
14. America
15. China
16. Zululand
17. Korea
18. Ottoman Turks
19. Iriquois

Now, however, this point is moot. If Civ 4 will be as moddable as they say it will be, we should eb able to add as amny civs as we want.

From the list of great people of toh6wy's link I think we can also confirm Greece (Plato), England (Shakespeare & Newton), Germany or America (Einstein) and Rome (Michelangelo--best fit).

As long as Carthage and the usual Civs(England, rome, greece, ya know the first civs that everyone is mentioning) I really couldn't careless who's in the game

1 Rome
2 Greece
3 Egypt
4 England
5 Germany
6 France
7 Japan
8 Spain
9 China
10 Russia
11 India
12 Souix
13 Aztecs
14 Babylon
15 Persia
16 Mali/Zulu
17 Mayans
18 Americans
19 Iroquois Federation

dont understand why or how u can put americans as a civ... they didnt exist 4000 years ago.. it is a ENGLISH colony more or less that broke out.. would we put canada as a CIV.....
either u have to see the diff. between a nation and a civ.. u cant have both..

With the new "Start in any era you want" option there is now an actual reason to have America in the game. The whole 4000BC stuff is now null and void with this new option. Heck with this option you can stick in Canada, Australia, Italy, Poland, Ukraine, Brazil and every other 20th and 21st century countries

dont understand why or how u can put americans as a civ... they didnt exist 4000 years ago.. it is a ENGLISH colony more or less that broke out.. would we put canada as a CIV.....
either u have to see the diff. between a nation and a civ.. u cant have both..
Because they are the most powerful military & economic power the world has ever known.

I agree with the principle though - I would love to see Britain as a race, and have the old 'civil war' thing readded to the game, thus allowing the creation of America or Canada or such should the rebellion not be quelled. That won't be around until Civ5+ though.

Let See. My Idea is that Firaxis will try to make the game more global, and not so european-centered.
So, let see:

1. Rome
2. Egypt
3. Greece
4. France
5. England
6. Germany
7. Rusia

8. Arabia
9. Mongols
10. Japan
11. China

13. USA
14. Aztecs
15. Incas

16. Zulus
17. Ethiopia
18. Siam
19. India

yeah if you re going to base it on ACTUAL civs.. then delete USA ..fro mthe big screen.. and make it more global... for those wanting to play USA they could play England.. and firaxis tryign to make america into some native AMercian nation is ALL BULL.. if you are going to be historical correct.. on the world map theere actually ought to be several antive american natons.. and Aztecs might not be the best example.. .. maybe the best ex. would be Sioux nations.. . ... and thats that and it and final.. historical correct..

You can't say America won't be in the game just because it didn't exist before a certain age. Most of the included civs didn't exist in 4000 bc and no civ (maybe except for England in the 1800's) has been more influencial than the US is today.

Now DENMARK is also a great choice for a civ!
"Huh? Denmark? Isn't that a city in Copenhagen? Or Germany?"
Cmon! Denmark has the oldest monarchy in the world! Our queen is descended from Eric the Red! Not like the English who have had all kinds of foreign families ruling them! Bah! I say remove them from the list! So what if they controlled a meager 20% of the world's land surface, DENMARK has ALWAYS been the world superpower. At least in my world.

dont understand why or how u can put americans as a civ... they didnt exist 4000 years ago.. it is a ENGLISH colony more or less that broke out.. would we put canada as a CIV.....
either u have to see the diff. between a nation and a civ.. u cant have both..

Because, you know, England ruled the waves in 4000 BC and the Inca had already conquered the Andes. By your logic, only Egypt, India and Sumeria should be in Civ IV.

dont understand why or how u can put americans as a civ... they didnt exist 4000 years ago.. it is a ENGLISH colony more or less that broke out.. would we put canada as a CIV.....
either u have to see the diff. between a nation and a civ.. u cant have both..
Not because I like it, but it will be in. see my post above.

it's not just about who lasted the longest, or which civ started first, but it's also about civ's that made a large impacts to history and the world.

the us is more than qualified to be in - if anything it's amazing that within its 200 year existance, it's affected the world in immeasurable ways, where its decisions have at points had consequences that impact billions - the american revolution was def. a contributing factor that led to future revolutions around the world, its independence and policies of manifest destiny not only deterred european interference (at least compared to the scale beforehand), but also affected countless natives in north america. the result wwi and esp. wwii were definitely changed by us involvement.

by some of the suggested standards previously posted, it wud be just as absurd to put in others civs - the aztecs were only a major power in the late 1300 - early 1500s, existing not that much longer than the united states (relative to some of the older civs) germany as a nation didn't exist until 1871. the mongols, while definitely changing the course of history in its conquests, were only really prominent 12-14th centuries, before declining.

america, however, unlike how it was portrayed in civ3, should be classified more under a "european" civ. either way though, there really is no argument on the degree and magnitude america has made in the world. and history's not over yet. for all you know america may exist somehow for another 5000 years, while other civs disappear.

i think it would help to understand the definition of a civilization as well - it doesn't necessarily mean an old and lasting culture/people. one source defines it - "the type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome." the us definitely fits as a particular nation in our modern epoch.

Assuming that the German preview thread info is correct the 10 civs so far confirmed are America, Aztecs, Germany, India, Mongolia, Persia, Japan, Egypt, China and the Arabs. These are all pretty understandable and I personally don't have any problems with any of them(besides the Aztecs) being in. That still leaves 9 to guess though. Here is the ones I'd like to see make the list, and a few that I hope don't make it.

My top 9:

1) Incas. Way more deserving than the Aztecs in my opinion. They lasted as a power for much longer, over a much larger population and territorial holdings. Not really sure what their leader(s) and UU would be.

2) Rome or Greece. I'd be suprised (pleasantly, to be honest) if only one of them made it, and shocked if neither did. I don't like how the civs are ususally stacked from the Classical age, but one of these two should be in. Peferably Rome. Legion UU with Julius and Constantine as leaders.

3) Ottomans/Turks. Along with the Arabs, scaring the living hell out of Christiendom for centuries should make them a lock. Janissaries or Siege Cannons as UU, and Mehmed II or Suleyman I as leaders.

4) England. Well established globe-spanning empire. Complete no-brainer. Dreadnought UU, William I and Elizabeth I as leaders.

5) Spain or Portugal. While both are very deserving of a spot, there are only 19 slots. The civs are generally too Eurocentric as it is, and having both former world powers from Iberia (3 if you count Gibraltar :D) would be overkill. I'd personally pefrer Portugal but am unsure of UU or leaders (Alfonzo I maybe?).

6) Sumeria. The cradle of civilization never gets enough love. Unsure of UU or leaders.

7) France. Same reason as England, though on a somewhat lesser scale. Unsure of UUs but Louis XIV and Nappy as leaders.

8) Mayans. Ancient American and highly innovative for its time civ. Also more deserving than the Aztecs. Unsure about UU and leaders.

9) Korea. An interesting, self-isolated kingdom in the past and a huge market for gaming today. Mostly I want to pick Korea in the slim chance Crazy Uncle Kim is a leader. Now that would be a fun AI personality.

Civs I don't want to see in the other 9:

-Celts. Barbarians.
-Vikings. See above.
-Carthage. I really never got this one. A small-time trade empire whose only claim to fame was losing war after war to Rome and starving elephants in the Alps. Huh?
-The Dutch, Polish, Swiss, etc. The game is already too Eurocentric as it is, geez.
-Any sub-saharian african country. Being a colonial speedbump doesn't make you very important in the grand scheme of things. This is also why the Aztecs shouldn't be in.

Hey, wow that was a lot of words. I think I'll stop now. :crazyeye:

1. Rome
2. Greece
3. Germany
4. France
5. England
6. Russia
7. Egypt
9. India
10. Japan
11. China
12. Babylon
13. Aztecs
14. Sioux
15. Polynesia
16. Austria
17. Arabia
18. Mongols
19. Persia

I basically took Ovxford's list and changed a few things

And add one more... you've only listed 18.
And for Austria i definitly have to protest, i'd rather see the Swiss.

1 Rome
2 Greece
3 Egypt
4 England
5 Germany
6 France
7 Japan
8 Spain
9 China
10 Russia
11 India
12 Souix
13 Aztecs
14 Babylon
15 Persia
16 Mali/Zulu
17 Mayans
18 Americans
19 Iroquois Federation

Honestly i don't think they will add two native american nations (Sioux/Iroquois). Rather i see them adding an additional asian nation like the koreans...

They make civs based on influence and power. This is my )
1. Rome (Best civ ever, most impact, superempire)
2. Greece (Literature, Knowledge, Culture unsurpassed except by Rome)
3. England (British Empire was Massive, founded USA)
4. China (Big nation historic)
5. Arabia (Founded Islam, ruled large empire)
6. Mongols (Largest land Empire)
7. America (Pax American, founders of UN, airplanes, many technologies)
8. Israel (First to believe in one God. Founders of Judaism and in long run Christian and Islamic world. How many of you have Jewish names, I do.)
9. Russia
10. Germany
11. Japan
12. France
13. India (Further down because they have never done much)
14. Turks (Could be higher, violent civ)
15. Persia
16. Aztecs
17. Spain (Can you say Latin America)
18. Egypt
19. Assyria (First nation to conquer entire world)

These are 19 most influential nations throughout history in my opinion although some important runner ups are : Songhai, Portugal, Dutch, Austrians, Incas, Byzantines, Korea, and Phoenicia.

LOL the reason civs are Eurocentric is because most the world powers came out of Europe Period. Europe was the center of the world from 1400-1945 and also had Rome, Byzantium, and Greece pre 1400. It is a mistake to make regional civs, civs should be based on power and influence overall in the world.

confirmed: America, Aztecs, Germany, India, Mongolia, Persia, Japan, Egypt, China and the Arabs.

thus the 9 left imo are:
- England/Britain (whatever you want to call it - self-explaining)
- France (self-explaining)
- Rome (self-explaining)
- Greece (self-explaining)
- Russia (self-explaining)
- One American (either Iroquois, Inca or Maya)
- One African (either Mali, Ethiopia or Zulu [the least preferable])
- One Mesopotamian one (either the real Babylon [not the one of civ3], Sumeria or Assyria [the most preferable])
- the filler: preferably the Turks (Ottoman Empire), but also possible are the vikings, Spain, Poland, Khmer or another American or Mesopotamian one (possible Phoenicia instead of Carthage!)

my 2 €-cents mitsho

there's no denying that several european nations - england, france, spain, italy/rome, germany, the netherlands, russia, etc. all have had important impacts, and prob. through expansion packs will all be included. at the same time, i disagree and think regional civs shud be in at all - as historically important as they all are, you after a while, at least for me, i need to change it up. plus it's fun to always imagine what the world would have been like if the mayans survived, if the iroquois drove out the europeans, etc. b'sides, world history isn't just btw 1400-1945, or limited to the european continent - most of the world flourished while europe fell into the dark ages.

honestly, it wud be nice to get the israelites as a civ - no doubt about the profound impact they've had, not just in the middle east, but to the world. altho it didn't dawn on me until this morning y it's highly unlikely they'll ever be put in, just b/c of all the sensitivity. def. understable, but a shame nonetheless.

15. Africa (It's a whole continent! It needs at least one civ. I don't think it will be the Zulus again. There are so many alternatives. Mali, Ethiopia or Bantu maybe? )


Egypt lays in Africa and if you want a second African civ, you can take Carthage.
I don't think the other tribes in Africa can be called civs because they didn't do anything special like a big buildings, big armies,...
And if you want a civ for every continent, you also have to add the aborigenals for Australia.(and there is no civ for Antartica ofcourse)

@Bartholomaï Have you ever heard of Mali, Songhai and Ethiopia, just to name the top three. If I just mention the name of Timbuctu, you probably will get it, cause this city is really 'famous'. ;)
And it's not without reason that there were some nubian pharaos of Egypt (which - together with Carthage) I count to the mediterranean civs, if we really can do such groups). In Addition, Civ 1 - 3 have the Zulus which (probably) should represent Africa, so even the producer think they're worth it.

mfG mitsho

PS: If you haven't heard of these civilizations above before, go and look here: www.wikipedia.com I'm sure, you'll find enough information in English and your language (I haven't checked).

yeah, though technically both on the same continent, sub-saharan africa is differentiated from the northern maghreb region - but yeah def. as mitsho was saying, several kingdoms including mali, songhai, and ethiopia were world-renown in their day, and were very important when it came to trading, esp. with the middle east. i'd def. like to see some african civ's in the game. the diff. btw the african civ's and australia, is that, while the natives in australia were fairly isolated, the african civ's def. did make contact and play influential roles to several diff civ's, from europe to asia.

I'd say Egypt, then Mali and Abyssinia, and then the Zulu would be worthy African civilizations. I'd try to fit in at least the first three, especially since Egypt is kind of borderline Near-Eastern.

If there had to be a second African civ, I'd take Abyssinia/Ethiopia over Carthage any day.

America, Aztecs, Germany, India, Mongolia, Persia, Japan, Egypt, China and the Arabs are in already. They sould DEFINATELY have the Romans - one of the best civs out there - and probably Greece too. As for African civs, (besides Egypt) Mali should be the one. Probably commercial/scientific, but I'm not too sure. No idea as to UU

Probably commercial/scientific, but I'm not too sure. No idea as to UU

You seem to forget that it's a new game. I'm pretty sure the old trait-system will be changed. UUs haven't been mentioned yet either AFAIK.

I'm stoked they have included Mongolia from the get-go :bounce: :banana: :bounce: :banana: :bounce: They did something right ;)

Anyway, my guesses of the 19 would be:
1. America
2. Arabs
3. Aztecs
4. China
5. Egypt
6. Germany
7. India
8. Japan
9. Mongolia
10. Persia
---
11. Babylon
12. England
13. France
14. Greece
15. Incas or Mayans
16. Iroquois, Sioux, etc. etc.
17. Rome
18. Russia
19. Zulus

You seem to forget that it's a new game. I'm pretty sure the old trait-system will be changed. UUs haven't been mentioned yet either AFAIK.
Ah yes, I guess you're right. But, from what they've said so far about Great Leaders, it seems they still have the same ol' civ traits.

If there had to be a second African civ, I'd take Abyssinia/Ethiopia over Carthage any day.


Thats bull. Carthage was the superpower of the med before rome even came to power. They ruled the whole coast of north africa almost. And u are going to say Ethiopia deserves to be in over carthage? Im sorry i just think that that is complete bull. Carthage is also the reason that the Romans fell, along with all those barbaric nations.. But they're uu should be hannibal's elephants instead of Numids...

As for African civs, (besides Egypt) Mali should be the one. Probably commercial/scientific, but I'm not too sure. No idea as to UU

How are they scientific?

My new Philosophy: If they dont have 2 traits that fit them, they shouldn't be a civ.

Original 16 plus Vikings, Mongols, and Arabia.

let's put aside the fact that america has had one of the greatest influences on the world for the past 200 years not only politically, but also economically and scientifically. let's forget the fact that the US has been the only superpower since the fall of the soviet union. let's review the thoughts of many people that argue the US should not be included due to it's lack of history, dating back only to the late 1700's. in your theory, america is merely a colony of england, and should be integrated into great britain. as i read through these posts, i couldn't help but notice that germany is a guarantee in all of these posts. germany didn't become a country until i believe 1861, following the Franco-Prussian war. that's basically 100 years younger than america. if you want to include a true civilization, perhaps we should return to calling it prussia, since prussia made up the bulk of germany. although, prussia itself isn't that old itself. and if we include prussia, why not include austria-hungary, since the hapsburgs dominated eastern europe for at least 500 years. the best solution, i believe, would be to unify all the eastern wuropean nations into the Holy Roman Empire. the holy roman empire existed for much longer than all the modern countries of eastern europe, and is much more logical in your thoughts of not including america. In that sense, Russia should be Muscovy, or the Ottoman Empire, which controlled russia for much of history.

my point is that this series has been created by western civilization. the developers know that most of the typical gamers wish to play with countries they can identify. If the game was dominated with classic civlizations as the holy roman empire, muscovy, or nations that have been extinct for centuries, it would be much less enjoyable. the point of these games is not to portray an accurate account of historic nations, but to create the most recognized and influential societies in modern life. america cannot be left out in exchange for some african country like ethiopia or mali. the mass majority of gamers wish to build up cities like New York, Berlin, and Paris, not some third world country village. of course the classic civilizations of rome, greece, and egypt will not be forgotten, as their accomplishments are still glorified in today's world. the major european nations such as germany, france, russia, and england will be included, along with japan and china. america, as strongly as many of you oppose it, will be in the game. the rest of the 19, which will include other european nations, as well as native american, african, and other asian countries will surely be included, but is going to be whatever the creators think that the consumer wants. popular demand is the key in aims of profit motive.

AndrewH, while everyone in Europe was living in the dark ages, where might made right and there was very little order or progress, Mali was one of the most important centers economically and philosophically. Thinkers from all around the world gathered in Timbuktu, which was one of the epicenters of the world for hundreds of years. Mali was also the source of half the world's gold supply at one time.

Of course, Civ skips that part of the tech tree, when you go from Roman Construction and Greek Republic to European Feudalism and Christianity in a single jump -- trivializing 500 years of history for the rest of the world.

It's no surprise that the average game fan thinks of 500 AD to 1000 AD as "the time when nothing happened" and wants a game where it's 16 European Civs, plus America, China, and the A-rabs.

let's put aside the fact that america has had one of the greatest influences on the world for the past 200 years not only politically, but also economically and scientifically. let's forget the fact that the US has been the only superpower since the fall of the soviet union. let's review the thoughts of many people that argue the US should not be included due to it's lack of history, dating back only to the late 1700's. in your theory, america is merely a colony of england, and should be integrated into great britain.
Fair enough I guess, but the US has only been a world power since about 1900 or so, and the last 15 years are very trivial in world where written history spans more than five millenia. Many historical-minded people would just prefer if America was just skipped and released in an expansion pack.
germany didn't become a country until i believe 1861, following the Franco-Prussian war. that's basically 100 years younger than america. if you want to include a true civilization, perhaps we should return to calling it prussia, since prussia made up the bulk of germany. although, prussia itself isn't that old itself. and if we include prussia, why not include austria-hungary, since the hapsburgs dominated eastern europe for at least 500 years. the best solution, i believe, would be to unify all the eastern wuropean nations into the Holy Roman Empire. the holy roman empire existed for much longer than all the modern countries of eastern europe, and is much more logical in your thoughts of not including america. In that sense, Russia should be Muscovy, or the Ottoman Empire, which controlled russia for much of history.
The Holy Roman Empire was little more than a title except during the period AD800 - 843. At that time it included only France, far-northeastern Spain, northern Italy, the lowlands and western and southern Germany. The Holy Roman Empire never ruled any of eastern Europe, except Silesia (now in Poland and Czech Republic), and for a short time Dalmatia (coastal and island Croatia). Prussia itself was created in 1525 when the Teutonic Order was secularised as a Duchy. But it is hardly worthy of inclusion. Germany has existed in one way or another since AD843, although it is true that it only became a real "state" in 1871. The Ottoman Empire ruled nothing in modern Russia, and there were other Grand Principalities (wrongly called Grand Duchies) in Russia other than Muscovy which dominated Russia at one point or another - Novgorod, Vladimir, and Kiev (in Ukraine) for the main examples.
my point is that this series has been created by western civilization. the developers know that most of the typical gamers wish to play with countries they can identify. If the game was dominated with classic civlizations as the holy roman empire, muscovy, or nations that have been extinct for centuries, it would be much less enjoyable. the point of these games is not to portray an accurate account of historic nations, but to create the most recognized and influential societies in modern life. america cannot be left out in exchange for some african country like ethiopia or mali. the mass majority of gamers wish to build up cities like New York, Berlin, and Paris, not some third world country village. of course the classic civilizations of rome, greece, and egypt will not be forgotten, as their accomplishments are still glorified in today's world. the major european nations such as germany, france, russia, and england will be included, along with japan and china. america, as strongly as many of you oppose it, will be in the game. the rest of the 19, which will include other european nations, as well as native american, african, and other asian countries will surely be included, but is going to be whatever the creators think that the consumer wants. popular demand is the key in aims of profit motive.
Too true and well said :) Although Mali and Ethiopia and so forth have had very mighty cities and have been very great empires in their day.

AndrewH, while everyone in Europe was living in the dark ages, where might made right and there was very little order or progress, Mali was one of the most important centers economically and philosophically. Thinkers from all around the world gathered in Timbuktu, which was one of the epicenters of the world for hundreds of years. Mali was also the source of half the world's gold supply at one time.

Of course, Civ skips that part of the tech tree, when you go from Roman Construction and Greek Republic to European Feudalism and Christianity in a single jump -- trivializing 500 years of history for the rest of the world.

It's no surprise that the average game fan thinks of 500 AD to 1000 AD as "the time when nothing happened" and wants a game where it's 16 European Civs, plus America, China, and the A-rabs.
Indeed. :) It is strange though because that 500 year period was one of the most notable historically. It saw the rise of the Turks, sub-Saharan empires, Arabs, Tibet, as well as the earliest conceptions of England, France, Germany and Italy; and also saw the greater part of the fall of the Mayans, Olmecs (?), and much of the Roman world (only Greece and Turkey remained Roman in any sense after AD1000).

Fair enough I guess, but the US has only been a world power since about 1900 or so, and the last 15 years are very trivial in world where written history spans more than five millenia. Many historical-minded people would just prefer if America was just skipped and released in an expansion pack.

i think the point is though, the past 100 years, even if it's a small part of the thousands of years of human history, is still nonetheless just as important. truth of the matter is, while a "superpower" nation a few thousand years ago may have at most impacted a few continents and the millions living in it, the US has affected the lives and results of events of all the continents and the billions of lives who live in the world. to skip on that wud be saying that everything from the world wars, nuclear weapons, the cold war (and bringing the world to the brink of annihilation), inventions such as electricity, the internet, nuclear tech, automobiles, etc. don't mean anything.

and again, just the same, if we're strictly judging civs by time, then there are plenty of civs on that list that shouldn't be including in the game either. while america wudn't fit much in the first half of the game, having the us come in the latter half is much more relevant than having the mayans or babylonians. but hey, that's the fun of civ - it's historical and fictional at the same time. what if the us encountered the babylonians.

but still. they were behind everyone so its hard to say there scientific... but i do see ur point and i think that i will shut up on that topic.

Carthage should definitely be in it.






It won't be, though.

Like someone earlier said in this post, i dont think that it really matters... modding is supposed to be so in debth that i figure Rhye, Kal El, TeTurkhan will make us more maps, and MANY can make us high quality units.. And just about anyone can make civs. Even then, they will add more in an expansion pack, if one is made.

what if the us encountered the babylonians.

We'd tear down the leader's statues and find him eight months later in a spider hole.

original 16 civs of Civ3 plus:

- Brazil
- Australia
- one more representative african tribe

no way, australia will never be in

It's my desires:

1. Russia(USSR?)
2. England
3. France
4. Germany(Prussia?)
5. Rome/Italy
6. Scandinavia/Sweden(Finland?Danmark?Norwey?)
7. Egypt
8. China
9. India(Tibet?)
10. America/USA(Iroquois?)
11. Japan
12. Greece
13. Arabia(Israel?)
14. Mongolia(Korea?)
15. Maya
16. Zululand(Bantu?Maori?Carthage?Ethiopia?)
17. Spain(Portugal?Celts/Hunns/Gots?Netherlands/Holland?Byzantiens?Turkey/Ottomans?Austria?)
18. Persia(Sumeria?Hetts?Babylon?)
19. Aztecs(Incas?)

First Civ's name is most desirable.

We'd tear down the leader's statues and find him eight months later in a spider hole.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHH ... lol

If they add in Australia, they would also add in Canada. I would actually like to see them both so the game isnt so much geared towards the ancient age.

AndrewH, they weren't behind everyone. That's the issue. For a while, they were AHEAD of a lot of people, especially the Europeans.

Although that's kind of natural in a dark age. It took the renaissance for Europe to resurge in progress. Many thinkers see the same thing in Africa today -- a region of the world still waiting for its rennaisance.

Will it happen? I don't know. But the reign towards the top from 500 to 1000 AD should not be forgotten.

Mali as scientific-commercial would make sense.

I believe that the reason africa didnt develop as much as the European countries and other parts of the world is because the lack of farms. Everywhere in africa people are making their own food, they have their own wells, etc. If they had more farms that would give other people time to make stores, and other things in society...

dh i see ur point. I didnt really know much about ethiopia, all that i knew was that all of the european countries came with gunpowder and took over africa, so i figured that africa must have been behind on science...

The biggest advancement in the early Renaissance was weapons technology. That is the consequence of nearly five-hundred years of proto-nation state warfare. Mostly though, Africans contributed greatly to the demise and colonization of Africa. Europeans had neither the men nor the manpower to conquer that continent in the 15th and 16th century. Tribal warfare in various kingdoms contributed to a booming weapons import industry. They paid out with slaves, which were very popular in the Western Hemisphere. While the population costs of the Atlantic slave trade were great, the establishment of political systems based on oppression and exploitation were more important. This lead to the decline of internal scientific and industrial development.

When Europeans started to colonize Africa for resources rather than slaves in the 19th century, African arms and other technology was way behind and Europe had the manpower to maintain order. The wealth of African nations was exported to Europe through the brutal oppression and economic exploitation that was Colonialism. Once again most kinds of economic development were stifled or ignored. Now Africa is a continent that has all the maluses of an industrial society without the benefits. Many current leaders still export the wealth of their nations to European banks or spend the money on arms to fight 'revolutionaries' who usually do the same once in office.

Divison of land based on geometric simplicity(notice all the right angles) ignored natural ethnic and cultural territories. The seperation of ethnic groups by borders has created immense conflict, especially in West Africa. Even if agricultural production was more organized, agricultural subsidies in developed nations such as the United States mean that African farmers cannot compete globally. Their is little to no base for an economy to grow on and the continent is in dire straits. Its not as simple as agricultural development or someone would have funded it already.

In conclusion, Africa and the Americas were fairly advanced continents with highly developed political, cultural, and scientific structures. The Europeans gained the upper hand easily due to their timing. Both societies were in moments of impending revolution. The Aztecs and Incas were not popular with their subjects. The competative nature of African politics left many eager customers for their weapons. It is a case where both continents decided it was better to trust the devil they do not know than they one they did.

dh i see ur point. I didnt really know much about ethiopia, all that i knew was that all of the european countries came with gunpowder and took over africa, so i figured that africa must have been behind on science...


That was only after the rennaisance, of course. With the rennaisance, the "action" seemed to migrate back to Europe for a while. But Europe hit its dark ages and Mali was the place to be, along with China, and Persia, and Morocco -- for a time. But you won't learn a lot about that in your history class. It seems we're taught that nothing happened from 500 AD until 1000 AD. Part of that is the amount of history that's been destroyed over the past millenium.

Also, Africans would have farms if the land wasn't owned by the descendents of European "colonists". Take Zimbabwe, whites make up something like 1% of the population but own 80% of the land. The whites legally own the land, but it's not like Africans are rich. Colonialism drained loads of wealth from the continent in many forms. Land reform is hot enough as a political issue that it has led to outbreaks of violence.

Violence is just a reality of human civilization. If one people tries to rule over another -- no matter how legitimate, organized, or progressive the regime -- it only takes so long before people try to bring down that empire. That's why a certain amount of egalitarianism is important, if only to prevent inevitable violence. JFK once said -- "those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

I guess I'm trying to say is that Civilization is based on a biased version of history. "Might makes right, empire is good, and the Zulu are there as a formality to represent the naked savages dancing around a huge pot of water with a well-dressed archaeologist in it."

Edit: thanks, Schwick, for being much more detailed about the history of the decline of Africa.

If they add in Australia, they would also add in Canada. I would actually like to see them both so the game isnt so much geared towards the ancient age.
Canada!!!!!! super :lol: Canada! Canada looks like USA, but less extreme and religious. I think Quebec is more likely than Canada. Canada. Actually, Canada and Australia are big countries with lots of unoccupied territories. If Astralia is in, Wuebec is in and Canda too.

5) Spain or Portugal. While both are very deserving of a spot, there are only 19 slots. The civs are generally too Eurocentric as it is, and having both former world powers from Iberia (3 if you count Gibraltar :D) would be overkill. I'd personally pefrer Portugal but am unsure of UU or leaders (Alfonzo I maybe?).
;) Cool
I would just like to add this:
1-Possible UUs are basically Naval or Napoleonic. Course Naval are best featured. And from this, the best is a real Nau/Carrack with Bombardement capabilities and a huge transport capability. Like the ones we used in Goa in 1510.
2-From another thread, I'll post here also the best leaders list, IMO:

1 - Prince Henry, the Navigator: Americans know him best.
2 - King D. João (John) II, the Perfect Prince: leaded Portugal to it's GA
3 - King D. Manuel II, The Lucky: leader during the GA
4 - King D. Pedro (Peter) IV, (don't know this data): King of Portugal and 1st Emperor of Brazil
5 - King D. Anfonso Henriques, the Conqueror: 1st king of Portugal, having doubled the original territory, expelling Arabs from a bunch of great cities, including Lisbon.

PS: You forgot Andorra :p

It seems many people think the US shouldn't be a civ in CIVIV. But you can just think of it as a civ for diversity; most civs are from the anceint age and barely any (in real life) lived up to even the industrial age. Having a modern-day civ would balance the game more.

I say that they should add Australia and Canada......but my opionion is small.


ok id like to see
ANCIENT
1)Rome
2)Greece
3)Celts
4)Inca
MIDDLE AGES
5)England
6)Portugal
7)Japan
8)Dutch
INDUSTRIAL
9)Russia
10)France
11)Ottomans/Turks
12)China
MODERN
13)United States
14)Canada
15)Australia
16)Germany (ww2 time, in between modern and industrial...)
throw in----
Mongols, Arabs, and...

Ethiopia, Carthage, Khmers, Austria, Aztec, Babylon, Iriqious, or India.... ( i left alot out)loollll

But thats just my list :) :blush:

I cant wait for dh to make fun of me

More civ confirmations. Mali was the only unknown so far, though (I think).

"We will definitely have the usual major powers like France, Germany, England, America, China, Japan, etc. We will also be including many Civs that are either new or usually saved for expansions like the Incas or the Aztecs or the totally new Mali. In all there will be 18 Civs in the shipped version of Civilization 4."

well in the game u see cities representing russia, egypt, etc