COTM 11 Spoiler 1: Contacts, end of the ancient era

This spoiler thread is meant to discuss mainly the initial phases of the game: early expansion, exploration and contacts.

To qualify for this spoiler, you must:
1. Be able to research a middle-age technology, and
2. Have contacts with all other civs.


Please try to:
- limit the discussion of map features to your initial surroundings (no minimaps)
- avoid discussing resources (especially those ones ;) )
- avoid discussing Middle-Ages matters

And remember: If you've opened the save, no more posting in the pre-game or saves available threads!

All these do's and dont's, as usual, should serve you as guidelines to not reveal game details that may still be unknown to other players. In other words: please, use your best judgement to avoid spoiling someone else's game. :)


So... now that the game is on, how did things go?
I would expect to see some discussion of the starting location and the settling and initial build strategies. Someone said...

If we are dreaming how about fresh water just under FoW

...As you see, all you need to do is ask ;)
With fresh water and a few micromanagement opportunities arising, which approach did you choose? And how did you plan and carry out your initial worker moves?

Moreover. How did you meet your neighbours, and what developments do you expect? (careful with map info here!).
And how did you deal, or are you planning to deal, with your closest neighbours?


EDIT Sorry, fellow civvers. As some of you know, I have changed work in the last couple of weeks and as a consequence relocated some 1500 km away from where I previously was...
So (this is the official excuse) I probably missed a few things in preparing this game.
Now (that is, after a few PM's by Alan :ack: ) I realize that the criteria for posting in this thread may seem a little too tight, especially as regards resources and their location.
After you play a bit, you will surely realize what resources will provide the spoiler information that we want to avoid at this stage: other resources or map features are ok to mention, I am sure you can see where it would become a spoiler -especially after the recent self-policing cases! ;)

[c3c] Predator

Opening plays

4000BC: Settler SE, Worker road cattle
3800BC: Worker chop game
3700BC: Curragh
3550BC: Warrior
3500BC: Curragh (chop + cattle + forest completes it in 1 turn)
There is freshwater to the north!
Worker road game, road BG, skip turn x2
3100BC: Settler
3050BC: Pyongyang founded (build: Warrior, Worker, Warrior, Worker, Granary)
Worker irrigate game, irrigate BG, irrigate cattle
2470BC: Granary
2310BC: Settler
2270BC: Wonsan founded (build: Warrior, Worker, Granary)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/davemcw_cotm11_bc2270b.jpg

I finally have the legendary 4/2/1 Bonus Grassland Cattle! :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bgcattle.gif


Research, Contacts, and Trading

3150BC: Contact Dutch
3100BC: Contact Vikings
2550BC: Contact Carthage
2510BC: Contact India
Trade for Masonry, Iron Working, Ceremonial Burial, Pottery, Warrior Code
2310BC: Contact Celts
2270BC: Writing
Trade for Mysticism, The Wheel
1910BC: Trade for Horseback Riding
1830BC: Contact Japan
1600BC: Code of Laws
Trade for Mathematics
1425BC: Philosophy, The Republic
1200BC: Literature
Trade for Polytheism
1125BC: Trade for Currency and Construction
Enter Middle Ages

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/davemcw_cotm11_bc1000b.jpg

Predator, noAIpatrol=0

Sent the worker N on the mountain to reveal more land. Fresh water :)
Settler moves twice, to forest N of the game... Found Seoul

I went for pottery first (to chop a granary from the game), after that writing, which I got in 1870 BC. At that time my 'Empire' looked like this:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/COTM11Darkness.JPG
(BTW: the Colossus is pre-build for the Pyramids)

I had sent out curraghs at that point, which eventually met all civs. The Mongols and the Dutch have apparently been beefed up with an extra settler, as they have raced ahead in score. The Mongols managed to get philosophy first... :( So I had to do Republic beaker by beaker.... :(

I entered the MA around 500BC, controlling all of the subcontinent after a short war with the Netherlands over control of the incense, which netted me some slaves...

Open Class - Fixed Barbs.

So, I don't post here much, but I have a question. In the Ancient Age, I realized I wanted a buncha workers. I had my capitol doing a 4-turn settler factory (just north of game and cow) and i had a worker factor south of the game and cow, so I could share the game on alternate turns. Anyway, this all went pretty well, but I realized I had to make roads through mountains and hills and irrigate from far away through the desert and so on...

So I think I over-built workers.

I'd made 20 workers by 1000 bc. When I finally hit republic (missed philosophy slingshot, although I expected to get it... i researched fast) I could hardly support my army of workers. I think I was down to 20% research and 10% luxuries and the rest was supporting my army (some warriors, a couple courraghs, and the workers). Anyone else run into this sort of issue? Anyone consider not going to republic? How's the army-support penalty working out on Predator?

thanks!

Open Class

4000BC: worker n; settler se

Ok, that makes the way to go quite clear.

3950BC: worker nw; Seoul founded - curragh started; research pottery at max
3900BC: worker chops (note that I did not irrigate the magical cow; I mined it before entering republic)

My empire at 1000BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1000bc.jpg

QSC stats (MapStat): 3.924 points; all contacts; 12 cities; 25 pop; 2 settler; 12 worker; 10 warriors; 3 curraghs; all AA techs but: currency, construction, republic; literature, monarchy

I tried the philo gambit, but failed. Another civ discovered philosophy 1 turn before I had code of laws (1025BC).

775BC Literature researched - start to whip libraries (guess what I am up to)
710BC Buy Contruction + 9g from someone for Philo + CoL; start Republic
650BC FP completes in Fusan
490BC ToA completes in Seoul (guess again if you have to :p )
370BC Republic researched; trade Republic to someone else for Currency, Monarchy, 30g, 4gpt; enter the MA; Monotheism as free tech; revolt for 4 turns of anarchy

OPEN

Initial move was worker N, saw fresh water and decided to move settler NE. Seoul will become soon a 4 turn combo warrior / settler factory.
Since there is a lot of mining and irrigation to do, my build sequence was warrior, granary, settler, worker, worker.
After that it was first settlers only and then the settler warrior combination.

Research: pottery at max., writing at min. Col at max., philosophy at max. - get republic in 1150 BC and had a 4 turn anarchy. Then literature at max.
The overall tech pace was slow and I had no intention to speed it up since I go for either conquest or domination.

To compare the early phase with DaveMcW, here is my screenshot at 2270 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_1.JPG

I am about 30 turns behind in tech! My cities are further apart and I have a 4 turn settler factory currently available.

This is my empire at 1000 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_2.JPG

I was expanding peacefully untill 500 BC, then I took on Carthago with swordsmen and then MI. Finally in 330 BC I entered the middle ages.

@DaveMcW:
O my god :wow: MA before QSC!!!!

I had my earliest MA in this game, around 700BC (will post a spoiler later), but MA in 1125BC - I am wondering if anyone ever managed to get it earlier :crazyeye: or at least on the same date.

Predator

Not much to report. I didn't have a chance to get philosophy first and that's when I decided to go for a peaceful game. I did not research republic but traded it at the end of the AA.

DaveMcW, your MA date is amazing. I managed no better than 570 BC.

I've seen two good moves here that I wish I'd made. Firstly, roading the cow early. Secondly, mining the cow, at least for the time being. I did it the other way around, mining the deer and then temporarily irrigated a BG to let fresh water reach the cow. That's like getting 1<2 (one is less than two) wrong, doing two temporary irrigations instead of one. Since my math is pretty good, the cause was obviously indecision. Edit: maybe my math stinks after all. A mined cattle wouldn't do any good, would it.

Erudine, I was about to answer your questions but realized I didn't revolt until the Middle Ages, so I'm not qualified. But most players agree that republic is almost always better. There is a logical solution to the support problem if you want to play aggressively, and there is a logical solution to the support problem if you want to play peacefully. Just don't be :blush: indecisive.

Open - 20k attempt

The starting area looked pretty good so I started with the Worker to the Cattle and the Settler SE. Other than no fresh water, the site looked great for a 20k and what with the Regent difficulty I figured I wouldn't miss the Palace prebuild too much.

Seoul's build order:
3700 - Curraugh (heading east)
3500 - Currraugh (heading west)
3200 - Settler (P'yongyang located in the same spot as DaveMcW)
3000 - Warrior (MP in Seoul)
1750 - Colossus
1725 - Warrior (MP in P'yongyang)
1700 - Warrior (MP in Seoul)
1550 - Temple
825 - Oracle
510 - Statue of Zeus
470 - Library
390 - Aqueduct
10ad - Great Library

I kind of wish I could have researched Ceremonial Burial first but I wanted to make sure I got to Philosophy and was hoping to trade for it early. Unfortunately every civ I met had Bronze Working and Alphabet already. I suspect some kind of trickery has taken place. :mischief: By the time I finally was able to make the trade I had already started the Colossus.

The Sedentary barbs were nice and I did nearly all my exploring with Curraughs, making contacts quickly. I gave P'yongyang the irrigated game and was able to get Settlers out every 6 turns. Early on I made a point to build a string of towns along the west coast and nabbed the Ivory. I also had to be a bit aggressive in my town placement to take the Incense from the Carthaginians. :)

I made a straight run to Code of Laws/Philosophy and became a Republic in 950bc. I then researched Literature and turned off science to build gold. Trading and the Great Library would get me the rest of the techs. All in all the AA went pretty well (not including my frustration in trying to get Pottery, CB early) and the Statue of Zeus was pretty cool, allowing my 20k city to help produce my military. Two remote civs declared war on me fairly late in the age when I told them to bug off on their tech demands. The Ancient Cavalry handled their sporadic forces with ease. I entered the Middle Ages in 30ad, 1 turn after the GLibrary is built.

Korea at 30ad:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Korea30ad.jpg

Open, goal: 20K
As i said in pregame discussion, i'm going for 20K win, with a goal to minimize RL play time. but i still spent more than 15 hours on it. :)
the whole game was almost finished in a single day. maybe 1 hour spent during Friday and Saturday and 14 hours on a Sunday. very enjoyable. :)

settler move NE and N to settle besides the sea. this wastes two turns, but hopefully its shields can make up for it. the new position can enjoy both cow and deer.
building sequence, temple, warrior (as MP), colossus
mystism 2310 (so that i won't have nothing to build)(i still get the republic slingshot and draw a 2 turn anarchy with my 2 cities. i didn't write down the date. must be too excited. sorry for such bad notes)

around 1030 BCdeclare war on Carthage, their conscript warrior with a settler is too much of a temptation for my two warriors wandering around in that 4 tile choke point.
my first warrior didn't lose any hp and get two workers!
1000 BC, another carthage settler with a regular warrior.. first warrior died without causing any damage. fortunately Carthage warrior didn't get promoted. second warrior killed the enemy with one hp left. phew.... 2 more workers!!! it seems it's possible to bring the ivory back home! :)

1000BC status:
:eek: 2 towns. :eek: 9pop in total
Seoul has 6 citizens, 1temple, 1 colossus, 1 oracle, 22 turns away from pyramids (which will be changed to GL once literature is learned).
Pyongyang has 3 citizens, 1 turn away from finishing granary.
1 worker, 2 slaves (should we report the results at the beginning or end of the turn?) at the end of turn, 4 slaves. 6 warriors (good job! getting me four slaves which eventually road all the way from the elephants to my cities to enable status of zeus. it also makes Carthage very willing to talk for peace.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1000bc1.jpg
(forgot the date) declared war on Viking since they planted a city where i intended and allied Carthage against them. I could see one Viking city destroyed by carthage.

Entered middle age at 130BC, GL help me learn the two techniques required.
getting feudilism as free tech.
My statute of Zeus only gave me one acient cavelry! is it because i don't have access to ivory (my roadnetwork blocked by Viking's town, which i intended to conquer with my acient cavelry)? later i found it's the case... well, since it's only my firshttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ionimplant_enter_ma.jpg t time to build it(and i did read the civopedia and it didn't say it needs ivory to produce cavalry), i didn't blame myself too much.

building sequence in Seoul:
Palace: 3900BC
temple:3100BC
cosossus:2110BC
GL:150BC
library:140BC*(actually finished one turn into MA... again i made the mistake of building it too late )
oracle: 1250BC
Statue of Zeus: 590BC
Mausoleum of Mausoll: 800 BC

The duel is on with Sabre & Ionimplant. I'm also going for a 20K and settled in the same spot as Sabre. I chose to mine the cow and research CB first.

My Seoul builds were:
Palace 3950 BC
Warrior 3800 BC
Curragh 3600 BC
Settler 3300 BC
Temple 2590 BC
Colossus 1700 BC
Oracle 1075 BC
Statue of Zeus 670 BC
Great Library 110 AD

Starting the Middle Ages the next turn with 1383 & 30cpt for Seoul.

Of course either SirPleib or Roland is probably also go 20K and will finish 500 years before all of us.

[For those concerned, don't worry "The Cultural Saga of Wang Kong" is on the way]

Arrrr, looks like my approach was completely different!
4000- Settler NE
3950- Settler N
3900- Settler N
3850- Settler N
3800- Settler E
3750- Seoul. Pottery in 16
Sheesh! Those hills surrounded by forests looked good for the long run, and I'm much closer to the center of the land, but will later gains make up for this early sacrifice? What're the odds.
3050- Spearman. Settler in 8
2550- Pyonyang. My second city. It's in the center of the ithsmus to be the most productive. Maybe it should have been on the coast, a boat would be nice... Except, I've decided Koreans are People of the Land!
2510- Meet Carthage, has masonry, furs, 2 cities.
2470- P'yong.
2390- Contact Japan. Get WC.
2210- One of 2 warriors I have dies, fortified on a hill, to a barb in Carthage land. A spearman named Stanley Kowalski goes up there to investigate. Causes MP/happiness problems later.
1870- Still only 2 cities...
1830- Settler in Seoul.
1250- Chopped a forest just Outside the border of a city, got the shields for it anyway. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. What are the exact rules, darnit!
1700- The competition beats me to writing by 1 turn.
Curragh #1
1650- Meet Dutch. Can get nothing.
1500- Meet Scandanavia. Can you believe how late this is? They don't have pottery, I get Iron Working.
1325- Get to Philosophy first! Take CoL. Would've liked Republic, but I lost out on Writing, didn't want to risk it.
Trade for Map Making, Masonry, CB, Wheel, without trading CoL.
1275- Settler to fresh water. Um, my cities were too small to need it anyway, for the forseeable future...
Stanley Kowalski and my surviving warrior, Buck T. Wild, are blocking a Carthaginian settler from Ivory NW. They eventually block 3 settlers until I get the ivory in 850!!!
1250- CoL is out among AI, I don't have Polytheism, they do. 1125- Contact Celts.
1000- Trade for Polytheism from Scandanavia. QSC stats: 6 cities-ouch!-, 10 citizens, 2 settlers, 6 workers, 2 granaries, 4 warriors, 4 spearmen, 1 curragh, 1 barracks, 32g, Republic in...37. No resources of any kind.
825- Get Math.
800- Temple in Seoul. 2 chops.
590- Vikings declare war over 20g. They had one small city on my land which I destroyed, making peace for 2 isolated, whipped cities in 450 BC.
450- Beat to Republic by 1 turn, and everyone has it. On regent, how embarrassing!!!
430- Get construction, currency. Get a 5, no, 4 turn anarchy.
410- Buy Literature for cash.
390- War on Carthage!
350- Republic! Unit support at 36. I actually would've rather gone Monarchy this time, but couldn't trade for it before anarchy ended. So I resolve to just live with Repbublic, it isn't so bad after all.
290- Trade for Lux.
210- SoZ in Seoul. Can't resist. Worst case with this one: no one else gets it.
110- First Ancient Cavalry.
90- Capture Utica, first major Carthaginian conquest.
My notes are messed up here. Did I enter the MA in 110BC or 90? Not sure. Whatever, it was very late. It looks like I'm at a big disadvantage for any fastest finishes, but I still think I can get a respectable score. I had a few riots, enough to knock a guy out of first, but no major mistakes, unless you count my entire starting sequence :lol:
Hey Karasu, engrossing map! It totally knocked me out of my routine!

1250- Chopped a forest just Outside the border of a city, got the shields for it anyway. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. What are the exact rules, darnit!

Fun write-up, by Jove! Picking this question out of the soup, as I understand it you get the shields if your chop is within the 21 tile range of the city, regardless of your current borders. Of course, you must also be building something that can use them - no wonders, palaces etc.

There are some complicated rules if there are two cities that qualify. Cracker's original Strategy Articles thread on Forestry Operations was brought to life a little while ago around here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=1962145#post1962145) with a discussion on who gets the shields.

Open Class - Fixed Barbs.

So, I don't post here much, but I have a question. In the Ancient Age, I realized I wanted a buncha workers. I had my capitol doing a 4-turn settler factory (just north of game and cow) and i had a worker factor south of the game and cow, so I could share the game on alternate turns. Anyway, this all went pretty well, but I realized I had to make roads through mountains and hills and irrigate from far away through the desert and so on...

So I think I over-built workers.

I'd made 20 workers by 1000 bc. When I finally hit republic (missed philosophy slingshot, although I expected to get it... i researched fast) I could hardly support my army of workers. I think I was down to 20% research and 10% luxuries and the rest was supporting my army (some warriors, a couple courraghs, and the workers). Anyone else run into this sort of issue? I tend to aim for 1/city as soon as possible. 20 workers at 1000BC seems far too much, unless you have already expanded that fast, but I doubt on this map... How many cities did you have 1000BC?
Anyone consider not going to republic? How's the army-support penalty working out on Predator?

thanks! No, in C3C normal epic games there is no government but republic - in most cases.

Thanks AlanH! How can I repay you? Maybe resurrect your b-day thread again? :)
But seriously, I checked out that thread. I'm constantly amazed at the lengths people go to win this game. It only makes me try harder, y'know.

Yeah! I need another bidet :D

Predator, my first (submitted) GOTM. Im writing from sporadic notes and memory. Going for domination/conquest

Capital founded SE; worker roaded the cow. Build sequence was curragh (sent west)-curragh (sent NE)-settler-warrior-granary. Pyongyang was founded NW in the popular fresh water spot and went to work on a granary, using the forested deer til the BG above it was mined, then did the cut-irrigate to cow maneuver. Started pounding out settlers and workers. 3rd city founded NE whose sole purpose was to build the frickin Colossus after making a worker, which it failed to do by 3 turns (but the build was changed to SOZ, which turned out pretty well in the long run). The good news is that the shiny statue was built right off my coast in Viking land for me to take later.

Research
Pottery to writing to philo to monarchy, traded for the rest, then researched currency, traded for construction. Entered MA sometime in the 600s.

Contacts and Such
3300- Vikes
3100- Dutch
2950- Carth
2710- Mongols, get Masonry + CB
2310-Celts, get Myst, meet Indians sometime shortly hereafter
1870-Dutch have writing, what the jack?
1790- Japos
1675- Writing for CB from Vikes, set to philo since 2 civs already have writing
1300 or so- philo completed, trade for polytheism, take monarchy, revolt.
1000 BC- We are a monarchy, have everything besides construction, currency, and republic, +we have a lot of gold. Only 10 cities, 2 settlers, bunch of workers, a smattering of warriors, my two brave curraghs, a few granaries, and working on barracks.

I went for wide city spacing to keep opposing civs off of my nice little rocky peninsula. Hooked up 3 resources pretty quick, started building up for invasion of Vikings to get that darn Colossus and then the Mongols :), skipping Carthage and their poor land/good defenders.

A note I did have: right at the turn of the ages, the Celts popped up offering like 25 gpt +200 gold for construction. What kind of land do THEY have? I dont think they even had currency yet either.

Arrrr, whatever, nevermind.

OPEN, barb fix
Goal: Diplomacy or Space Ship
Ancient Era update: 4000BC-0630BC

Pre-History thoughts: Seeing that the easy scenario gets a scout I’m going to assume we are not on an island so I’m not going to explore with the worker to check. I’ll start by settling N/NE so I’m not at the very edge (a little delay and less exploration for less corruption, very debatable) and build a granary, and then settler to settle 2S to share the game/cow, which will also start with a granary. After that who knows. I’ll start Pottery, Republic Slingshot, Literature, Map Making, TBD. I’m bothered that there are no scientific civs to trade with. Will want to build libraries early for the boost as well as the Forbidden Palace. May do a Palace jump with a leader. Assuming India, Mongols and Japan are closest, I wonder what that means for resources since all them need 0 or 1 to build their Knight equivalent.

INITIAL DETAILED MOVES
4000BC- Settler-N (fresh water!, looks like an eventual 4-turn settler factory); W1-E (W# for worker)
3950BC- Settler-NE; W1-road
3900BC- found Seoul, start granary prebuild; start Pottery at 100%; city governor emphasis production only (also note that I adjust city workers to ensure I get Pottery before I chop the forest and try not to waste shields or food near the end of a build or pop increase; also ensure I get Seoul granary at 1 turn before size increase; this is all calculated before)
3800BC- W1-N
3750BC- W1-mine
3450BC- W1-go game
3400BC- borders expand
3350BC- W1-chop
3200BC- discover Pottery, switch to granary; start Writing at 100%
3150BC- W1-road
3100BC- build granary, start settler
3050BC- size 3, lux to 20%
3000BC- W1-N
2950BC- W1-chop
2900BC- size 4, lux to 30%
2850BC- build (Seoul) settler; settler- go 2S; back to 100% science
2750BC- to 20% lux; found P’yongyang
2670BC- build (Seoul) settler; to 0% lux, 20% gold, down to 1gp; settler-N (don’t really know where to build since I’ve done no exploration. I’d like to go 4 NW, but I can’t tell what is there, so I’ll go NE and either go 3-4 space depending upon what I see)
2630BC- W1-irrigate; settler-E
2590BC- build (Seoul) Warrior (and rename X#); X1-N; settler-NE
2550BC- X1-N; found Wonsan
2510BC- build (Seoul) worker; W2-W/Irrigate; W1-S/Irrigate; X1-W
2470BC- W2-E/SE; X1-W
2430BC- W2-road; X1-NW
2390BC- science 70%, lux 10%; X1-N
2350BC- build (Seoul) Curragh (and rename B#); B1-E/SE; X1-N; W1-S
2310BC- B1-S/S; X1-N; W1-road; W2-S/SW/W
2270BC- B1-S/W; X1-N; W2-road
2230BC- build (Won) Curragh; W1&2-irrigate; B1-W/NW; B2-SE/SE; X1-N; Seoul to size 5, lux to 30%
2190BC- B1-W/N; B2-SE/E (coastal waters to SE?); X1-N
2150BC- B1-N/N; B2-NE/N; X1-N; build (Seoul) settler; W1&2-E/NE/irrigate; settler-go 5xNW
2110BC- B1-W/N; B2-N/N; X1-NW;
2070BC- B1-W/N; B2-N/E; X1-S; X2-N; build (Seoul) worker & (Won) warrior; W1-S; W2-NE; W3-NE
2030BC- B1-W/N; B2-NE/NE; X1-W (see ivory); X2-N; W1-road; W2-road; W3-chop;
1990BC- B1-N,N (see foreign border); B2-N/N; X1-W; X2-N; settler- found Pusan;
1950BC- B1-W/W; B2-N/NW; X1-W (see foreign border); X2-NW; (still only 5th largest); meet Scandinavia who trades Writing+10g for Pottery (3 turns early), start CoL at 60% science, 40% luxury
1910BC- B1-N/NW; B2-N/W; X1-N; X2-N; X3-N; build (Seoul) settler & (P’) granary & (Won) warrior; W1-W; W2-SWx3; WC-NE; settler-go Pusan – I want the ivory; meet Carthage, trade Writing for Mas+10g+worker
1870BC- B1-W/W; B2-W/SW; B3-E/E; X1-NE; X2-N; X3-N; build (Seoul) Curragh; W3&C-road; W1&2-chop;
1830BC- B1-N; B2-N/W (see foreign land); B3-E/E; X1-N; X2-N; X3-N;
1790BC- B1-N/W; B2-NW/W; B3-E/S; X1-NW (GH give Warrior Code); X2-W; X3-N; X4-N; build (Seoul) Worker & (Pu) Warrior; W3&C-N; W4-W/NW; W1&2-road;
1750BC- B1-N/W; B2-N/W (see incense); B3-S/S; X1-NW; X2-N; X3-NE; X4-N; meet The Netherlands, trade Writing for IW+CB+15g; W3&C-road; W4-road; settler-N; trade Scandinavia CB for TheWheel
(Note: stop detailed explorer & worker moves)
1725BC- build (Seoul) worker & (P’) settler & (Won) Curragh;
1650BC- lost Curragh at sea; trade Carthage TheWheel for 33g
1625BC- build (Seoul) settler
1575BC- build (Pu) Curraugh; meet Mongols
1550BC- found (3NE/2E) Namp’o & (2N/11NW) Cheju
1525BC- build (Seoul) settler & (P’) settler;
1475BC- meet Celts (not territory, only warrior);
1450BC- build (Pu) warrior; found (4N) Hyangsan & (7N/5NW) Ulsan
1425BC- build (Seoul) settler
1400BC- discover CoL, start Philosophy at max available (changing every turn for lux)
1375BC- build (P’) settler; found (9NW) Inch’on;
1350BC- meet Japan;
1325BC- build (Seoul) settler & (Pu) worker
1300BC- build (Na) worker; trade Vikings IW+Mas+10g for Map Making
1275BC- trade Japan MM for HR+Mys+11g;
1225BC- discover Philosophy & Republic, don’t start rebellion right away since I have two settlers being built; build (Seoul) settler & (P’) settler; start revolution, 4 turns of anarchy (don’t forget happy citizens!!)
1175BC- meet India, trade them IW for 10g
1150BC- found (12NE/1N) Pyongsong & (6NE/5N) Taejon & (3NW/10N) Paegam;
1125BC- enter Republic!
1100BC- build (Huan, Ulsan) workers
1050BC- found (5N,3NW) Manp’o;
1025BC- build (Seoul) settler & (Inch’on) worker; found (8N/2NE) Kaesong; trade India MM for Poly

OTHER TECHNOLOGY
Literature, 900BC, research
Currency, 775BC, research
Construction, 630BC, research
Feudalism, 630BC, free tech

OTHER MAJOR EVENTS
0750BC build Statue of Zeus

AA General Moves

Cities: Build Seoul N/NE and start w/ granary; then cities 2S and 3NE (which was a really WAG as I hadn’t even started exploring, so I figured 2 cities of distance 3 would be good). I built roads, chopped forests and irrigated the cow and game as quickly as I could and traded them between the two cities. After this I tried normal expansion concentrating on getting to luxuries and resources first.

Exploration: I built both warriors and Curraghs to explore. I met my first civ in 1950BC and had met all of them by 1175BC.

Research: I generally stayed at max research or at least as close as I could as I used luxuries instead of military to keep my citizens content. I did Pottery, then Republic slingshot, which I got in 1225BC. I waited till the end of the build phase to start a revolution since I had two settlers being built that turn, but was lucky enough to get a 4-turn one without a re-roll chance. I then researched Literacy, Currency and Construction. Trading was limited since I played OPEN, and I finally entered the MA in 0630BC and got Feudalism as my free tech, which was disappointing as I want to focus on research.

City Builds: Focus was on expansion, then science after I got Literature. After I max out on those, I’ll start my military builds for war.

1000BC, QSC status
14 Cities, 28 Population, 1 Settler, 10+1 Workers
5 Warriors, 4 Curraghs
Missing Currency, Construction, Literature, Monarchy AA Technologies

0630BC, Entering Middle Ages
19 Cities, 54 Population, 2 Settler, 12+2 Workers
5 Warriors, 4 Curraghs, 1 Ancient Cavalry, 2 Galleys

[c3c] 1.22f - Open Class

Like many I sent my worker NW to the mountain. I saw the water but didn't realize it was fresh water. It looked a lot like the inlet to the east.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_3950bc.JPG

I settled to the on the hill to the SE. My builds were warrior, curragh, curragh, curragh, settler, warrior.

I didn't really like the isolated position of Seoul, so I set out to jump my place north. My third city (Wonsan) was founded to the NE, towards the middle of the pennisula, in 1950BC. It wasn't until 1375BC that everything aligned (Wonsan's pop and Seoul's production) and I was able to abandon Seoul.

Fairly early on, I also decided to grab the entire pennisula from the Ivory south. With barbs sedentary, I was able to use four of my warriors to block the entrance to the pennisula from the north where is narrows.

In 1000BC, 7 cities, 12 pop, 2 settlers, 5 workers, 9 warriors, 3 curragh, 1 granary (new capitol), and 2 barracks. I was short Phil, Const, and Currency.

Contacts:
2900 BC Vikings
2710 BC Carthaginians
2310 BC Dutch
2030 BC Mongols
1625 BC Indians
1600 BC Celts
1250 BC Japanese

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_1000bc.JPG

One again, I missed getting to philosophy first. :( This makes 4-5 COTMs in a row! I later traded for Monarchy and switched to that after a 4 turn anarchy in 530BC. I continued to expand and fill in the pennisula reaching the MA in 270BC by researching currency. I got Engineering as my free tech.

The only of thing of note was a phony war with the mongols which started in 450 BC. After a refused demand. I took the opportunity to stir things up by allying his neighbors against him.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_270bc.JPG

AA Cities:
3950BC Seoul
2900BC P'yongyang
1950BC Wonsan
1700BC Pusan
1550BC Namp'o
1425BC Cheju
1375BC Seoul razed (Wonsan becomes capitol)
1350BC Hyangsan (site of Seoul)
1225BC Ulsan
975BC Inch'on
875BC Pyongsong
775BC Taejon
650BC Paegam
630BC Manp'o
350BC Kaesong & Chonju

Research:
3950 BC Bronze Working; Alphabet
1990 BC Masonry; Pottery; Warrior Code; Ceremonial Burial; Iron Working; Mysticism
1870 BC The Wheel; Writing (research)
1600 BC Horseback Riding
1200 BC Code of Laws (research)
1150 BC Mathematics; Map Making; Polytheism
950 BC Philosophy (research)
610 BC Monarchy; Construction
470 BC Literature (research)
270 BC Currency (research); Engineering (free)

[c3c]

One again, I missed getting to philosophy first. :( This makes 4-5 COTMs in a row! I later traded for Monarchy and switched to that after a 4 turn anarchy in 530BC. I continued to expand and fill in the pennisula reaching the MA in 270BC by researching currency. I got Engineering as my free tech.

950 BC Philosophy (research)

did you do full-out research? with only 2 cities, i managed to get philosophy at free republic at 1000BC, before which i deviated to get CB and mysticism.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif Predator
Goal: fastest domination (as always until I succeed).

I moved north, found a lake and settle there.
My first build was a curragh (I thought we are on the island), this curragh almost completed a trip around the world within QSC time and brought contacts with 4 other civs, later I contacted Mongols and I found Japan only after 1000BC.

Although I did not get a map of this world, it gave me a clue that the world is very *beep* (cenzored).

In 1790BC I was somewaht shoked by regent AI research capability. Dutch new writing. We didn't. In 1750 two other civs knew writing. I was scared, yet I decided to research CoL before researching philosophy. At some point I become so scared that started to use scientists. I remembered that in COTM9 I researched philosophy on the same turn with Americans. I was not sure that I will be as lucky this time.
Nevertheless, we got philosophy before anyone else at 1275BC and become Republic on 1225BC. Emphasizing research was probably not a bad idea, since many people in this spoiler reported republic slingshot failure.
Unlike in most of my games I decided to continue research. I still do not see any *beep* and therefore maybe it is better to produce *beep* than *beep*.
So I continued researching.
At 1000BC my world looked like this.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_1000BC.JPG

Construction 925BC.

In 875BC we refused to give construction to Dutch and they declared. The same year we met Japan.

750BC FP

710BC Currency and Monotheism. The earliest MA I ever had.

This is my world at this moment:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_AAend.JPG

I still confused about how to proceed in this game. I probably will research towards *beep*. If I will see *beep*, I will start researching *beep*.

When I was entering MA, I've seen something strange:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_poly.JPG
I am not sure why my advizer tells me that "we learned the secretes of polytheism from Celts". We indeed traded it from Celts, but it was in 1275BC, not in 730BC.

I decided also to go for a 20k win in this one. I settleed one southeast and built the following culture in Seoul for the AA.

3100BC- Temple.
1870BC- Colossus
670BC-Pyramids
570BC- Library
10BC- Great Library, Start GA.

Interesting to see many snagging both Oracle and SoZ. I didn't really have a good chance at either. I could have probably built Oracle, but it was between that or Pyramids. Pyramids is obviously the superior choice. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

I did manage to just barely pull off the Philo gambit, getting Republic for free. Not sure on the date, but it was probably slightly before 500BC in range.

Interesting to see many snagging both Oracle and SoZ. I didn't really have a good chance at either. I could have probably built Oracle, but it was between that or Pyramids. Pyramids is obviously the superior choice. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.
well, in terms of culture per term, both oracle and SoZ are better than pyramids.

I did manage to just barely pull off the Philo gambit, getting Republic for free. Not sure on the date, but it was probably slightly before 500BC in range.
wow... 500BC is a late date. :) good that AI in your game didn't get philosophy.
i do think AI need serious improvement since in my game Dutch got mapmaking instead of philosophy. it's such a stupid act.

How does one get a golden Age with this UU?? :confused: Does it actually kill enemy units?? One must have a bunch of them then, considering the odds of it taking a single hit point :( Any feedback on this?

How does one get a golden Age with this UU?? :confused: Does it actually kill enemy units?? One must have a bunch of them then, considering the odds of it taking a single hit point :( Any feedback on this?
you can always redline an enemy unit by some other regular units (have you seen a tank lose to a spearman while reducing the spearman to 1hp? ;) )
personally i never used them and didn't build it in my game.

That is the question. I can do that. But it its very difficult to time those events. It probably makes this the worst UU. In all other Civs u can rely on the UU to trigger the GA when you want.

That is the question. I can do that. But it its very difficult to time those events. It probably makes this the worst UU. In all other Civs u can rely on the UU to trigger the GA when you want.
well, to use those units effectively, you always need a couple of them instead only a few of them and hope they can hit. thinking this way, timing those events shouldn't be hard. especially when you're laying a seige to a city, you can keep bombarding it until you achieve what you want (the enemy units won't run away in a city).

well, in terms of culture per term, both oracle and SoZ are better than pyramids.


I concur 100%. The problem was that I hardly expanded fast enough to claim ivory before Carthage. Given the the choice, I would certainly take those two over just the Pyramids. Not that I regret getting the Pyramids that early on. Aside from planning for Seoul, the game was on autopilot from that point forward.

open class

I think I have done horrible in this "easy regent game"

first of all, I settled in the entirely wrong place for good reasons, i wanted to move my capitol inland some and was counting on using those BG by the lake for a second city, but this was before I saw the lake was completely surrounded by mountains except for those couple BG. Anyway, here goes:

4000 worker N see the lake (terrain value of 2 food tells me its a lake) realize i can have a 4 turn settler factory by chopping that forest, and then irrigating to cow, but it will take a lot of work and will require irrigating then mining over some irrigation, perhaps I was just greedy and should have instead irrigated the deer after that chop, settler NE to hills to see if i spot anything interesting from that vantage point

3950 settler n to hills, worker NW to forest

3900 seoul founded, build spear (forest chop will complete in 5 turns, building curragh would waste 3 shields) research pottery

3850 - 3750 zzzz

3700 worker irrigate, seoul -> spear -> curragh, spear sent to explore

3500 worker road

3400 build curragh -> curragh, curragh sent to explore to the north

3350 worker to BG to irrigate and bring irrigation to cow

3250 build curragh - > worker, curragh to explore to south

3150 discovery pottery, research writing at max; worker built -> granary

2800 curragh spots orange borders, but contact is delayed because of no units or cities on the coast

2710 contact vikings

2650 contact carthage, sell pottery to both vikings and carthage for 10 G each so I can support deficit research, they would not trade any techs for it

2510 build settler -> warrior

2390 build warrior -> settler, Pyong founded, builds warrior

2310 spear pops barbs near carthage, survives attacks but does not promote, one barb heads toward carthage, unfrtunately I did not get to witness the result of the barb invasion on carthage

2270 build settler -> settler

2230 contact Mongols; trade mongols ALPH for IW + 35 G, trade carthage IW + 4G for MAS + WC, trade Mongols MAS for CB, trade carthage CB for 4G (Mongols are still up MYST)

2190 Pyong builds warrior -> warrior

2150 Wonsan founded, build warrior

2110 Seoul settler -> settler

2030 contact Celts, trade Celts IW for MYST, Wheel, + 35 G, Pyong build warrior -> worker

1990 Wonsan builds warrior -> worker

1950 Seoul settler -> settler

1830 Pyong worker -> warrior

1790 Seoul settler -> settler

1750 discover writing, research COL (20 turns @ max)

1725 Pusan founded -> warrior

1700 Pyong -> warrior -> curragh

1675 Namp'o founded, Seoul settler -> settler

1650 Chojin founded by ivory (this was either the 3rd or 4th settler built, took a long journey to the ivory to keep carthage from getting it) builds warrior; Wonsan worker -> warrior

1625 contact Japan, sell MAS for 10 G, still trying to support deficit research

1600 Pyong curragh -> curragh (am not at liberty to say why i built all these curraghs to avoid spoiling

1575 Seoul settler -> settler, N'ampo warrior -> worker

1550 Wonsan & Pusan both build warriors -> warriors for both

1525 Hyangsna founded, builds worker, this is the chosen site for jumping my palace since it is most central, palace jump will wait until I fill up my area with cities and start war production, i decided carthage must be eliminated

1500 Seoul settler -> settler ( a worker chop gets settler one turn early)

1475 Pyong curragh -> settler

1450 contact Dutch, writing is known by Mongols, Celts, Carthage, Dutch; Japan has Poly; Dutch, VIkings, MOngols have Horseback; gift Alph to Japan, trade Dutch MAS for HBR + 35 G, Japan wopnt give Ply for HBR, writing, IW + 119 G; wonsan warrior -> worker, nampo worker -> warrior

1425 Visan founded (really cant read my writing so that might not be the right name), Chojun warrior -> worker

1400 Seoul settler -> settler, Pusan wariror -> worker

1375 COL discovered PHIL will be 7 turns at MAX continuing deficit research

1325 Inch'on founded builds curragh, Nampo wariror -> worker

1300 Seoul settler -> settler, Pyong settler -> granary, Wonsan worker -> worker, Hyangsan worker -> worker

1275 Pyongsong founded -> spear, trade MYST, IW to Dutch for MM, Pusan worker -> spear

1250 contact India, trade India MM for Math + 48 G, changed production in both Pusan & Pyongsong from sear to cats ** Because of aforementioned need to eliminate Carthage I need some artillery, I am not planning to go up against the Numidians without cats & hopefully trebs before war starts, I have no iron yet so I am not ready to build swords, getting iron hooked up has been a low priority, getting irrigation to parts of my empire has occupied most of my workers time and has drastically affectd city placement so that I could irrigate through hills

1225 Wonsan worker -> cat

1200 confrim, oops cannot say that, anyway got some nic infromation here that will be useful in the future; discover PHIL, claim REP for free, do not revolt because I am going with Monarchy later due to unit support and lack of rivers to help commerce and fresh water to grow cities above size 6, the extra cats I am going to need against Carthage will drive up unit support, research currency, Seoul settler-> settler, Nampo worker -> cat, Some city name I cant read builds worker -> cat

1175 gift writing to Japan, trade Japan MM, PHIL, & Math for Poly, Chojun worker - cat

1150 Trajon founded builds worker

1125 Paegan founded builds worker

1100 Seoul settler -> settler

1075 change prod in Hyang to cat + worker chop, Nampo cat -> cat, Hyang cat -> cat (in order to avoid confusion here, I changed production in Hyang from worker to cat at the end of the 1075 turn, my worker would have finished during that inter turn, but so did the forest chop so it was during this inter turn that Hyang built the cat but I always attribute builds to the previous turn)

1050 Wonsan cat -> galley, Pusan cat -> galley, Pyongsong cat -> barracks

1025 Monplo (or a city similar to that in name) founded

1000 ivory connected, finally

QSC stats: 13 cities, 21 pop, 1 settler (+ 1 due in 1 turn) 12 workers (+ 3 in production) 14 warirors, 1 spear, 5 cats, 4 curraghs, 1 granary; resources: ivory; techs: all AA except Lit, Mon, Constr, & Currency (due in 10), 163 gold + 0 GPT

basically I got my iron hooked up and the incense too, filled my peninsula with cities and entered the MA @ 600 BC claiming ENG as my free tech and I started researching Feud. My plan is to go for a domination win by researching straight down to H'wachas. A couple turns after entering the MA I traded for Monarchy in a bad decison I cannot fully explain I remained a despotism for several more turns.

unfortunately I have lost my pic, I will post one later from 1000 BC if I have no saves closer to the end of the MA

This is my first GOTM in a long time, but this game got me back into it.

Here is a summary of my QSC timeline.
4000BC. I moved the worker N, then moved the settler SE.
3950BC. Seoul founded. Research pottery 100%.
Seoul would build 2 warriors and a curragh, then a settler.
3350BC. Pottery Researched.
3000BC. P'yongyang founded on the forrest N of the forrest with the game.
2670BC. Carthage contacted.
2430BC. Scandanavia contacted. Trade for warrior code.
2390BC. The Wheel researched.
2350BC. Celts and Netherlands contacted. Trade for ceremonial burial and masonry.
2150BC. Seoul is now a 4-turn settler factory.
2030BC. Wonsan founded.
1725BC. Pusan founded. Iron Working researched. Contaced India. Trade for Mysticism.
1625BC. Namp'o founded. Mongols contacted.
1450BC. Cheju founded.
1425BC. Japan contacted.
1400BC. Writing researched.
1375BC. Hyangsan founded.
1325BC. Trade for Horseback Riding.
1300BC. Ulsan founded.
1275BC. Inch'on founded. Embassies with Carhtage, Scandanavia, and Netherlands.
1200BC. Philosophy researched. Map Making is free tech.
1150BC. Pyongsong founded.
1075BC. Taejon founded.
1025BC. Paegam founded.
1000BC. Trade for Mathematics and Polytheism. Build embassy with India.

12 cities, 22 citizens, 2 settlers, 8 workers, 7 warriors, 4 spearmen, 4 curragh, 1 granary, 2 barracks.
I have all AA techs except construction, currency, code of laws, literature, republic and monarcy. All civs have been met.

Here is a picture of my land at 1000BC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gskyes_COTM11QSC.JPG

thoughts:
I am glad that I recently learned and practiced how to make 4 turn settler factories. They are very powerful. I like it even better when I don't have to watch it. My factory in this game ran itself- I didn't have to touch it.
Bonus grass w/ cow is nice...
The forrest w/ game, when chopped, the shields went to P'yongyang, even though a citizen in Seoul was working on it. It would have been nice to have those shields go toward the granary. I should take a look at Cracker's article again.
Those Carthage units in the north of my territory are a warrior and settler. I didn't have enough units to block them, and they eventually founded a town on the coast north of Hyangsan.

Other notes in Ancient age.
Mongols "sneak" attacked me by landing a warrior next to undefended P'yongyang. I scrambled a warrior from Seoul to defend, but the Mongol warrior won. No bother... next turn it flipped back to me. :lol: Then I bought India and Japan to fight them.
The war with Carthage hadn't started until the Middle ages, although I had started building an attack force by the end of the AA.
I didn't get the Statue of Zues. Netherlands beat me to it by 1 turn. :mad: I got the Great Lighthouse instead.

Open, going for 20K

After Sabre, ionimplant and denyd I'm the fourth in the 20K struggle
edit: oops, forgot Kaiser_Berger, so I'm the fifth posting on 20K

Preparations

After been beaten twice for 20K, by 25 turns in COTM9 and by at least 42 turns in COTM10, it's time to get serious. I copied the starting situation and did some testruns up to 1000BC. The purpose of these runs is to see what can be build and researched in that timeframe. And when Karasu stated that the cow sits on a bonusgrass, I could redo my testruns. Results of these tests were, amongst others, settle 1 SE, use the capitol for 20K, let the workers always road before mine and don't chop the forest next to Seoul. Because I want CB and Mysticism first I consider the Republic slingshot to be to risky, so I'll go for a free Literature.

Some of the mistakes I made in the past were to neglect research speed and building low-culture wonders. So throughout the game all research will be max and the empire will have libraries as a priority. As for the culture building I defined 1 culturepoint for 100 shields as culture-index 1. As long as there is a choice in culture-building I will not build culture under c-i 1.

This game will be about fast 20K without consideration for Jason-scoring.

(I have noted only a few dates in the write-up. There is a time calender at the bottom where I've listed the 20K city builds.)


Ancient Ages

As stated above I settled 1 SE. Research orders: <Ceremonial Burial> <Mysticism> <Writing> <Philosophy> <Code of Law> <Republic>. Building orders for Seoul: temple, worker, Colossus, settler, Oracle, library and Great Library. According to this plan the Golden Age will start when we're in Republic and the G-Lib will give us all the first and second tier AA-techs and probably some third tier techs too. I launched a settler very late in order to maintain a higher population in Seoul early on and thus building faster. I made an exception for a worker to prevent having Seoul working unimproved tiles and thus have a faster research-rate. 3 Turns after building the settler, I joined a worker to Seoul to save 2 turns on the Oracle.
The downside of having the first settler out in 1950BC is a small empire. I also missed out on the ivory and the incense which were settled by Carthage. I managed to get the iron, which was quite a relieve with the strong Carthagians next door. When all space was settled I had build 13 towns. I had send 1 warrior and 1 curragh out to explore. The warrior met the Carthagians, the curragh the rest but the Celts. Contact with the Celts would come in the Middle Ages through trade.

On the 20K-front everything went smoothly and the building orders up until the G-Lib were executed. The Golden Age started and G-Lib provided all AA-techs except Currency. I prioritised the aquaduct next. Irrigating the deer enabled 11-pop which produced (if irrc) 36 shields (in GA) per turn. The other wonders with c-i 1 or higher (Pyramids, Mausoleum of Mausollos and Hanging Gardens) could not be build. They all ended up in the cascade, even the Temple of Artemis. I had no interest in the Great Wall or the Great Lighthouse so it’s time to look at the MA.


20K-EVENTS

3950- palace
3200- temple
2070- Colossus
1225- Oracle
1175- library
590- ----------------- Republic (after 3 turn anarchy)
370- Great Library (start Golden Age)
310- aquaduct
270- ----------------- Middle Ages

The forrest w/ game, when chopped, the shields went to P'yongyang, even though a citizen in Seoul was working on it. It would have been nice to have those shields go toward the granary. I should take a look at Cracker's article again.

It's not in Cracker's article, it's in this article by T-hawk (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1618841&postcount=21), and a correct picture is in this article by planetfall (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1922944&postcount=49).

20K attempt 1.22 Conquests version

since I had dropped to 2xx in the Global rankings and because of a curragh and a scout I chose conquest version to see if it would have a benifit in AA.

YES it did. I got POTTERY and LIT from the Scout along with some gold before he was lost to Barbs on his last attempt on a goody hut.

My initial research was at max for CB then the Rebuplic slingshot (got it). I timed my GA with MoM and built GL during my GA. But before I was able to build a Temple, the Colossus, Pyramids, SoZ and a library(thanks to Scout). I cannot remember the exact dates as I am at work right now but all in the AA. I lost Hanging Gardens to the ToA cascade and had to settle for Great Lighthouse.

My big mistake was in not expanding very quickly and I became a "bully-boy" for a while as I gave in to demands early on, untill I got the iron hooked up. Then it is a different story but have to wait for the next spoiler as I am in IA currently.

When I was entering MA, I've seen something strange:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_poly.JPG
I am not sure why my advizer tells me that "we learned the secretes of polytheism from Celts". We indeed traded it from Celts, but it was in 1275BC, not in 730BC.
You get these weird messages in the following case:
- you are a scientific civ,
- when you enter a new age you select a tech to research before you get your free tech
- you get the tech you selected as free tech

(In this case it looks like you selected and got monotheism)

I just screwed it up royally.
I settled so slow that it hurt myself. I even managed to be behind tech, with a scientific civ on regent.
I think the game is still winable, but I am just so disgusted with my performance, that I can`t get myself to keep on playing.
What a great debut in COTM. :sad:

did you do full-out research? with only 2 cities, i managed to get philosophy at free republic at 1000BC, before which i deviated to get CB and mysticism.
As much as possible. I use Lux for happiness during the early going. Expansion results in a lot of low pop cities. My move of palace meant a lot of my ciites were more corrupt than usual, with the resulting low commerce.

Still, I got Philosophy in 950BC, which would have gotten me repubilc only the AI got there first. I had 7 cities by then. If I hadn't moved my palace, I probably would have had at least 10.

I think it is was mainly bad RNG luck with the one AI pop writing and another Philosophy. I know I didn't trade writing until one of them knew it this time. I probably shouldn't have, as I helped spread it around.

@ionimplant, if you only had 2 ciites at 1000bc and you weren't going for 20K, you need to kick your expansion into high gear. Maybe, even with a 20K. For this start, I was on the low side with only 7. :(

I am totaly new to this forum (and its GOTM) But when i load the save file i get a Curragh and a Scout extra? I was hoping to match my civ "skills" vs the posts here but... no cur and no scout :(

Do i have some issues with my version?

Regards

** Never mind :( Just saw what went wrong on the GOTM site

Some of the mistakes I made in the past were to neglect research speed and building low-culture wonders. So throughout the game all research will be max and the empire will have libraries as a priority. As for the culture building I defined 1 culturepoint for 100 shields as culture-index 1. As long as there is a choice in culture-building I will not build culture under c-i 1.

i made a big mistake in the past GOTM persia in building Great library earlier than library when literature became available. that would save 4 turns for the final date. but for this game i again made this mistake (well, i realized that's a mistake only after read some of Tao's comments yesterday). but for this game, i actually already have a Great library prebuild going on when literature becomes available.... it's really a dilemma for me.


The downside of having the first settler out in 1950BC is a small empire. I also missed out on the ivory and the incense which were settled by Carthage.
i doubt it can be smaller than mine. :mischief: good thing is i did get ivory.


20K-EVENTS
3950- palace
3200- temple
2070- Colossus
1225- Oracle
1175- library
590- ----------------- Republic (after 3 turn anarchy)
370- Great Library (start Golden Age)
310- aquaduct
270- ----------------- Middle Ages
Oh, i think again i'm going to lose due to my late library which was not built until 130 BC...

EDIT: Predator

I just have a few points.
I settled SE.
I missed the philosophy slingshot.
I actually backfilled my towns to get the resource and the luxuries first (I can say that, right?).
I had to attack the Vikings, carthage, and netherlands with warriors and a bowman to keep their warrior/settlers out of my lands. It worked and I knocked out their settlements.
I miss clicked at one point and pillaged a road that connected one of my luxuries. I had no workers any where for miles, so I reloaded.
I used curraghs, but not too early. I think they should have been one of the first things I built, like some of the other players did.
I had a 5 turn revolt to republic and I got engineering for free (yuck I wanted feudalism).
I had no plan on how to win, but I sure didnt feel like fighting in this one.

namilam: There are 3 different saves on available to be used for this game.

Predator is the toughest and is aimed to challenge the top players. It usually has either bonuses for the AI or penalties for the player (or both).

Open is a standard game with no advantages given to either side beyond normal for that level.

Conquests (probably a bad title for the class) is for those who have not played very often at the difficulty level. This is the only level that has a score adjustment with a 10% (I think) reduction in score.

Since you are new to the forum (welcome btw), playing the Conquest level is fine. You'll have a couple of extra goodies to get you off to a good start. You are playing the same map as everyone else with the same opponents.

It's not in Cracker's article, it's in this article by T-hawk (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1618841&postcount=21), and a correct picture is in this article by planetfall (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1922944&postcount=49).
For clarity, they are all posts in Cracker's forestry thread.

You get these weird messages in the following case:
- you are a scientific civ,
- when you enter a new age you select a tech to research before you get your free tech
- you get the tech you selected as free tech

(In this case it looks like you selected and got monotheism)

Yes, I do not see these kind of messages often, since even when we are scientific, I don't always eneter new ages, like in GOTM41.
Yes, I indeed chose monotheism (it was a mistake, though).
But what bothers me is why this guy is talking about polytheism? Why not about writing or mysticism :confused:?

I settled SE on the hills and grew my empire along both coasts. Between curraghs and warriors I was able to make contact with everyone fairly quickly (except the Celts who hid from me for quite some time) Except for one major trading snafu I was able to enter the MA ahead of or tied with all the other civs in the tech race.

The snafu was a trade with the Mongols: I put Code of Laws up for trade and then as I went down to click on what would you like to offer for it, I accidently clicked on Here have this nice pretty tech! Doh! Oh Well needless to say the Mongols liked me after that.

I quickly blocked off access to my lands using the 4 point chokepoint, which allowed me to get the Ivory and the Incense. I did end up in one small war with the Carthaginians when they tried to settle on the Ivory. After I killed the first warrior and took the settler as slaves they promptly sent another warrior and settler who I also killed :) After that nothing happened until we went to peace.

Nobody else even tried to settle on my little chunk of land, though i kept expecting to find a Dutch or Viking settler wandering around it never happened.

All in all a fairly good start I have no idea what victory condition that I'm going for but I'm currently in 3rd place on the Histographic chart, though I'm rapidly closing the gap with 1st and 2nd place.

After been beaten twice for 20K, by 25 turns in COTM9 and by at least 42 turns in COTM10, it's time to get serious. I copied the starting situation and did some testruns up to 1000BC. The purpose of these runs is to see what can be build and researched in that timeframe.
Rebad, how did you do the test run? i tried some test game, but they were not helpful at all since the starting positions are too different. i was thinking about using editor to make a map like this but i'm such a novice with editor and don't even know how to assign myself a startign position to a desired place (the tip of a penninsular this time) and so finally gave up.

I quickly blocked off access to my lands using the 4 point chokepoint, which allowed me to get the Ivory and the Incense. I did end up in one small war with the Carthaginians when they tried to settle on the Ivory. After I killed the first warrior and took the settler as slaves they promptly sent another warrior and settler who I also killed :) After that nothing happened until we went to peace.

that sounds excatly like what happened in my game. :goodjob: those 4 slaves are really easy. Carthage is such a miserable civ in my game. i guess losing two early settlers is the main reason for their performance.

For clarity, they are all posts in Cracker's forestry thread.

Exactly. But in Cracker's War Academy article, it is falsely stated that:
"When two or more towns can overlap the same square of forest, the harvest bonus will go to the town that is working the forest square at the moment the forest is harvested."

But what bothers me is why this guy is talking about polytheism? Why not about writing or mysticism :confused:?

Is that how you would have designed the bug...? :p But usually, bugs are not designed, they just happen. Probably that applies to this one as well.

Exactly. But in Cracker's War Academy article, it is falsely stated that:
"When two or more towns can overlap the same square of forest, the harvest bonus will go to the town that is working the forest square at the moment the forest is harvested."

That must be what I was remembering. I will have to look through those links you posted earlier and see what the current rules are when I have time later. I should also see if I can find Crackers forestry thread. Thanks for the clarification from both of you.

Open class, barbs fixed. Goal = fast space victory.

I didn’t even realize there was fresh water nearby for a while – my worker went right to the cow to road, settler went SE to settle. Builds were curragh, granary, worker, warrior (finally discovered fresh water), settler. My workers created a nice 6-turn settler/something factory which I had to convert into a 4-turn settler factory by irrigating over a mine when I finally found water.

Research was at maximum the entire way. I researched pottery, then writing. I was shocked by the quick tech pace on regent. A couple civs discovered writing not long after I did – I’m thinking there was rather generous goody hut placement for selected non-Korean civs. I avoided trading writing until almost everyone had it, then I finally traded it to the final 2 civs. I still managed to complete the Republic slingshot although I was very nervous for a while, completing Philosophy/Republic in 1275BC.

1000BC stats:

13 cities
28 citizens
2 settlers
10 workers
2 archers
6 warriors
3 curraghs

I was not involved in any wars in the Ancient Age since there was adequate room to expand peacefully and I was using so many shields on libraries that my military was laughable. I kept the tech pace as quick as I could, giving literature to everyone as soon as I discovered it so they could build libraries, and generally spreading techs around for whatever loose change others had accumulated. I reached the Middle Ages in 730BC.

Open

I didn't take notes; so I've forgotten my exact date for entering the MA. Some time after 490BC (my save from then is researching Currency with 17 turns left, my last MA tech).

I settled in the popular SE spot, and built a Warrior, a Curragh, and a Settler. The Settler went up to the lake, and I irrigated my way down to the cow.

Seoul was now a 4-turn Warrior+Settler factory, with the second city sharing the irrigated Game two turns out of 4.

I made contacts quickly with my Curraghs, and traded a bit; with the Mongols in particular, who popped huts like crazy. I pulled off the Republic slingshot by 1 turn - a close shave.

I had one brief war with the Dutch, due to a misunderstanding. They thought they could plonk a city down on my Incense. I corrected this train of thought with a few Archers.

I also had a war with the Vikings. I thought it would be a "phony war" that saw no action. They landed a single Warrior next to Pyongyang - undefended, and with the SoZ by that time. Not a worry, I thought, I had 3 Veteran Warriors within range of it. Then the Curse of the RNG struck, as my first attack failed, then my second and third failed without scratching Ragnar's super-dude! So I had to watch as he marched into Pyongyang :blush: Next turn I re-captured it with my first attack, and suffered no further embarrasments during the war.

My empire at 1000BC (11 cities, 23 pop, all AA techs except Poly, Monarchy, Lit, Currency, Construction):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/eldar_cotm11_1000BC.jpg

Neil. :cool:

DaveMcW, how could your rivals have Currency and Construction in 1125 BC? I noticed you did not research Math, although I assume you gave it around once you traded it as did I, but what else did you do to help the AI? I am of course totally rejecting the possibility that it was luck.

One thing I did notice was that there were a number of Flood Plains on the starting peninsula that weren't next to rivers... clear evidence of map editing, but was this intentional? Not that I minded, it made some of the desert areas useful even pre-rails.

One thing I did notice was that there were a number of Flood Plains on the starting peninsula that weren't next to rivers... clear evidence of map editing, but was this intentional?

I found it pretty disturbing. I didn't notice until a citizen unexpectedly worked one of these tiles. Then I took a closer look at all desert tiles and found as many as six of these Salzburger Nockerln (a.k.a. a rich desert). I might have placed cities differently.

Rules changes (edits) should be in the game release notice, and a Civ III rule says that flood plains are always next to a river.

Will these flood plains cause disease?

DaveMcW, how could your rivals have Currency and Construction in 1125 BC? I noticed you did not research Math, although I assume you gave it around once you traded it as did I, but what else did you do to help the AI? I am of course totally rejecting the possibility that it was luck.

Yes, I did trade around Math and Mysticism as soon as I got them. I also gave away Republic to boost their research speed.

I think another factor was not trading Writing or Alphabet. Even when half the AIs had Writing, I refused to trade Alphabet to those who didn't have it. The AI thinks Alphabet is a useless tech, so they often research something else like Currency and Construction.

The AI thinks Alphabet is a useless tech, so they often research something else like Currency and Construction.

How can they do that without Alphabet?

Oops, you're right. :)

They did get Alphabet eventually (when I gave away Mathematics), but not Writing.

First COTM

Settled on hill. Went for settler fqctory after 3 warriors.
Research all along at high level. Started with Code of law + Philo to get republic. Then finished with other tech. Traded techs all along and have been able to get construction from AI.
Entered MA in 470 BC.

Build a stack of 1 warriors to upgrade with cash to Nedieval Infantry. Open question is the next target.

I have at 470 BC
17 cities, 36 pop
1 settler, 12 workers, 12 warriors, 4 spearmen, 2 curraghs.
NW, I have 4 warriors to stop Carthage warriors or settlers.

Thanks, DaveMcW. Didn't really think about giving away republic. I wonder if I was right not to research republic once I missed the sling-shot, but I think so.

i doubt it can be smaller than mine. :mischief: good thing is i did get ivory.

Yes, I think my empire was 50% larger at 1000 BC ;)
And yes, you were quite fortunate to get the ivory.

Oh, i think again i'm going to lose due to my late library which was not built until 130 BC...

I made some calculations. Seems to me our 20K culture stayed within a few percents from one another throughout the entire AA. I estimate you had at 270BC (my MA-date) 1144 culture with 22 cpt and I had 1158 with 25 cpt. We will have to await eachothers MA-post to see if we're continue to be close or not.

Rebad, how did you do the test run? i tried some test game, but they were not helpful at all since the starting positions are too different. i was thinking about using editor to make a map like this but i'm such a novice with editor and don't even know how to assign myself a startign position to a desired place (the tip of a penninsular this time) and so finally gave up.

I used the editor to copy the starting map. I too don't know how to assign the starting position. I just put a settler and a worker on the mountain with the editor. And then when I load the .biq file I just delete the starting settler/worker from the game and use the settler/worker I placed with the editor.

COTM 11 Open

4000bc And Away We Go! Move settler SE. Worker to cow. Pottery.
3800bc Warrior complete. Build curragh.
3650bc Fresh water
3000bc See a border. Popup: Indians, Mongols, Japanese, Celts, Carthage, Dutch, Vikings.
2800bc Learned CB from a goody hut. See the choke point to build cities.
2630bc Another border.
2590bc Contact Carthage. Not much to trade. They have Masonry, we have CB.
2270bc Contact Netherlands. We have nothing to trade. I see another border.
2150bc Contact Vikings. Trade CB for WC +10g. Trace CB to Carthage for Masonry + 10g. The extra gold will allow 100% research. Nick of time.
1990bc Contact Celts. We have nothing to trade.
1870bc Contact Japan. Trade Writing for Iron Working and Wheel. I see iron.
1725bc Contact Mongols. No trades. Haven't seen the Indians yet. Seoul is a 4/3 settler/archer factory.
1700bc India.
1625bc India has nothing we want.
1100bc Finished Philo. No slingshot. I think the Mongols got it. I knew I should have skipped CB and hoped to trade for it.
1050bc Dutch demand rebuffed. They declare war. Long march for them.
1000bc Crappy start.

Stats.
Score 142. 7th.
Culture 268. 1st.
8 cities.
6 workers.
7 warriors.
6 archers.
2 curraghs.


670bc Settled war with Dutch. Celts demand gold, get none, declare war.
A few turns later, the Mongols declare war.

When the Celts march in with 6 swords, I make peace and loose a city.

90bc (or so) I make peace with the Mongols. Trading peace + Monotheism (free tech) for peace + Feudalism.

Build a stack of 1 warriors to upgrade with cash to Nedieval Infantry. Well, lets hope you saved enough money for such an operation :lol:

Well, I wondered wether I should go for Predator, because I think I am not too good to exploit a weak AI, so the extra challenge wouldn't be too bad. But I finally went for Open because of the extra settler for selected civs...

I decided to found Seoul 2NE. Good choice as I didn't want any micromanagement and it was an easy 4t Settler factory. I think it's the first time I plan a 4t Settler factory, counting the shields and the fpt before improving the tiles (i usually use my intuition, but I may have been contaminated with the MM virus).
I tried to get contact and map as fast as possible, using more curraghs and warriors than usually. It didn't work ultra well anyway.

The expansion phase was a bit slow, I will probably have to plan a little bit more this phase (I tried to settle strategic locations first, but maybe the time lost sending the first settlers a little bit far isn't that good). I was able to do some good trade thanks to full contacts, even while retaining alpha and writing. I went for pottery, CoL, Philo, but was beaten by only 3 turns for Philo by the Celts in 1100 BC. Hard luck.
1000 BC : see attached image.
I decided to expand peacefully till I went to the Carthaginians and then take them down with a swordsmen SoD (warriors first).

Most important, I decided not to build a single defensive unit, having most of my cities empty. This is a really good strategy, even better when in Republic (but i stayed in monarchy the whole game, because I used the always at war with someone strategy).
When I had to go to war to get some oxygen land, I chose to take on the Vikings, because of the poor land owned by the Carthaginians and their numidian mercenaries.
The war went well, got rid of them without too much pain (but still much more than what I was used to when attacking with mounted units).

Then my attention was brought towards the Carthaginians, who dared to sneak attack me while I had set up a war against the Celts to prevent them from going to powerful. This time it didn't go very fast, I took only two cities before making peace. But then the Carthaginians attacked me again, but I was only gathering my forces to roll over them. The war went better when I entered MA (quite late as I had cut off my research to upgrade all the swordmen). I think next time I should upgrade the warriors faster by puting a stronger emphasis on linking iron fast. The upgrade is quite expensive and the income is low in AA.

For those who are not sure how to add a starting location in editor, startin glocations are considered overlays, just like rivers, goody huts, barb camps, etc. click on the overlay button at the top and select starting location from the list of overlays. then right click on the starting location once you have placed it and you can assign it to either a certain civ or a certain player #. I am 80% certain this is correct, but i didn't check the editor to verify so if i am wrong let me know

For those who are not sure how to add a starting location in editor, startin glocations are considered overlays, just like rivers, goody huts, barb camps, etc. click on the overlay button at the top and select starting location from the list of overlays. then right click on the starting location once you have placed it and you can assign it to either a certain civ or a certain player #. I am 80% certain this is correct, but i didn't check the editor to verify so if i am wrong let me know
thanks a lot~ :goodjob: i'll try that for next gotm.

COTM11 - open

Decided to move Settler SE after the worker discovered nothing much up north. Seoul founded in 3950bc. Build a couple of warriors to explore, then decided to build curraghs, as this would reveal more of the map sooner and give me more contacts. Built a granary and was able to turn Seoul into an 8-turn warrior, warrior, settler factory. I used the warriors for MP, but mainly to block the choke point and guard for barbs. Other cities built workers and libraries, and these workers worked on improving the terrain around Wonsan - which was going to house the great library - although at the time it thought it was building a palace.

QSC results

7 towns, 1 settler about to build another
7 workers
2 curraghs
16 warriors

dhttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/qsccotm10du.JPG


The mongols then demanded tribute, and for a reason which I'm not sure I am allowed to say, I told them to go away and they declared war. I managed to pay Carthage to fight them, and thus ensured that no damage was done to me, and i pretty much ignored the whole war. Japan also tried the same a few turns later, but were also told to go away and thus ended up at war with me.

Then disaster struck - I was one turn away from completing the great library when I recieved news that the Japanese had built it. After much swearing I made the decision to use the shields for the statue of zeus. I would then build up a military for an attack on carthage - hopefully while his army was away fighting the mongols. I waited until i got peace with the mongols and Japanese, and the alliance with Carthage was over. I then attacked and took the border city of Sabratha. Unfortunately the attack then ground to a halt and the war became a stalemate. The unit support began to become too costly and no gain was being made against Carthage's mountain defence. I managed to get a few techs and gold for peace, and decided instead to focus on infrastructure before launching another attack. It took me a while to trade my way to the MA, so I entered the MA rather late in 400 AD.

dhttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/cotm11dustartofMA.JPG

I am reporting in for the 20K contest. I start a little late due to some milking attempt in gotm41 but here goes:

I dont use the capital for 20K, instead my second city. My 20K city is placed like second city of everyone, just north of the game.
Temple 2310BC
Colossus 1450BC
Library 1350BC

In the capital I started by building two curraghs (since it was so shield rich) and then the settler. I roaded the cow, then roaded towards the game which I chopped.

Something strange happened to the Dutch. They researched Literature as first tech after Writing. That has a good and a bad side. I could trade for it and build library early on but not at all guaranteed to build all wonders now. I thought I would have good control over the great library but now I have several civs building the Oracle and the Dutch (and I assume soon others) building Great Library.

I go first for ceremonial burial and then directly for Republic. I discover Philosophy with free Republic in 1225BC. Pull 5 turns anarchy. Sad I dont know how to reroll...

QSC stats:
6 cities
17 population
1 temple
1 library
1 colossus
1 granary
1 settler
9 workers
2 warriors
2 curraghs

I discover Currency in 825 and I can trade for Construction entering MA the same year. It is ironic that in this game when I would like to enter MA late I arrive there so easily. Maybe I need to instigate some wars soon to slow things down.

I am currently heading for the Great Library (cross your fingers, the Dutch started before me) and then with a Golden Age get SoZ and hopefully many more in the millenia to come ;)

I go first for ceremonial burial and then directly for Republic. I discover Philosophy with free Republic in 1225BC. Pull 5 turns anarchy. Sad I dont know how to reroll...

i
can you give a little more detail about your culture city building sequence (and date)? or you haven't built much yet during the AA?

Sad I dont know how to reroll...


You cannot do anything about it in C3C :( This bug was fixed, so that even if you new how to reroll, it would get you the same result.

For the PTW, however, it works the following way: When you get repubic, your science adviser asks you what to reaserch next. Instead, you need to click to see the big picture. The big picture will be F6 screen. Press F1 and revolt from there. Domestic advisor will tell you how long you will be in anarchy. If you are unhappy with what he tells, you need to close adviser screen and one of the advisers will say that we learned Republic, do you want to revolt? And although your current goverment is already anarchy you can revolt into anarchy second time and you could get shorter or longer anarchy instead.

Edit: Crossposted with Ionimplant

@solenoozerec
Thanks for the hints.

@ionimplant
Only built Temple, Colossus and Library during AA that ended in 825BC. I started temple once my 20K city was created and shortened the build time with 4 turns due to pop rushing. Temple was finished in 2310BC. Then started Colossus while joining some more workers into the city. I focused most of my efforts around the 20K city and finished colossus in 1450BC. Dutch had researched Literature just before and I traded for it with newfound CoL. I then finished Library before starting the Great Library. I heard rumours it might finish around 600BC...

Open Class
Goal: 20k Culture Victory

QSC Score 2,560

Initially I moved the worker N and the settler NE. I figured this way I could always move the settler N or S depending on what the worker found. I went ahead and decided to place my capitol to the N-NE of the starting location and placed my 20k city SE of the starting location.

Technology up to 1,000 BC:

Ceremonial Burial 3250 BC
Writing 1990 BC
Code of Laws 1325 BC
Philosophy 1075 BC
Republic 1075 BC (slingshot)

I wasn’t too happy with my choice of Ceremonial Burial as my first tech since I didn’t even build the temple in my 20k city until the MA. Unfortunately I didn’t keep track of tech research after the QSC mark.

I did okay with my culture builds though I missed out on the Great Library by several turns. I also failed to build some of the cultural improvements like a temple or library. Neither one was built until the MA. I did manage to build the Colossus (1700 BC), the Oracle (1050 BC), and the Statue of Zeus (550 BC). You’ll also notice in the screenshot that there is 1 turn left to finish the Hanging Gardens.

My main reason for not building either the temple or library was due to my being strapped for cash. I didn’t want to take the time to actually hand-build either one of them. I believe this may have been a mistake. I probably should have either stopped research to build up cash since this set my 20k date back further than it should be. Oh well, this is one way to learn.

My main reason for not building either the temple or library was due to my being strapped for cash. I didn’t want to take the time to actually hand-build either one of them. I believe this may have been a mistake. I probably should have either stopped research to build up cash since this set my 20k date back further than it should be. Oh well, this is one way to learn.

i think i also have this problem - thinking those non-wonder buildings can always wait till we finish the wonder grabbing phase. but i'm pretty sure this isn't right, at least for 20k regent game...

Definitely not right. Libraries for a scientific civ cost about 13s/cp/t, temples 30s/cp/t. Even the absolute best wonders, SoZ and Shakespeare's, cost 50s/cp/t.

Definitely not right. Libraries for a scientific civ cost about 13s/cp/t, temples 30s/cp/t. Even the absolute best wonders, SoZ and Shakespeare's, cost 50s/cp/t.
great that a 20K master join the discussion!
but there're always some difficult decisions to make... like when you don't have anything to build in the culture city and so start a prebuild (like after you get a temple but are researching for literature), and then you learn the tech that enables a cheap building... what's the best choice? i guess it is very hard to plan everything right to avoid this happening. and also you always need to worry about AI getting the wonder (esp from the cascade).

Well, my statement was directed at regent, where the cascade risk is minimal. At higher levels, sometimes the wonder will have to come first if there is serious danger of cascade and if the wonder is a biggie. Generally though, you'll want to have just completed a wonder upon learning a new tech. So, maybe you build temple (temples should always be one of the first 2-3 builds in a 20k city if capital, and the first build if in the second city), then Colossus, then Oracle. In that time, you will ideally have completed the Republic slingshot and right as you finish the Oracle, you should be finishing literature. If it looks like Oracle will come a little earlier than literature, work some higher food tiles for a little while to get the 20k city's size up (assuming it isn't already at size 12) or work some higher commerce tiles to get some extra cash and complete the tech faster. If literature is coming first, slow research down to accumulate money for the immediate rush of the library (in addition to moving in a warrior or something for disband).

This map had a special challenge for those who built SE of the starting position, as no fresh water meant that an aqueduct had to be built, and right in the time when it is generally most difficult to get enough money to rush the library and then colosseum and cathedral (or cathedral first depending on how the wonder building goes). I am curious how this affected research and build orders, but no one seems to have made mention of this.

Anyway, since a 20k empire is generally a bit smaller, take that extra time to do some planning so that the difficult decisions are minimized, and you don't have to wait to build a library until after Hanging Gardens or something.

I made a straight run to the Republic slingshot (mistake in hindsight), then researched Literature, after which I turned off research to save up for Colosseum and Cathedral rushes (I was assuming I'd win the Great Library race). Two turns after Lit, Construction was researched by a rival civ and I trade Code of Laws for it. After my Library was built, I part-rushed my Aqueduct and immediately began joining Workers to help push my GLibrary build.

On a side-note did anyone else have all the neighboring civs already knowing our starting techs or was it just me? This threw a major wrench in my plans as it wasn't until 2230 that I finally contacted a distant civ that didn't know Alphabet and Bronze Working.

I made a straight run to the Republic slingshot (mistake in hindsight), ...

On a side-note did anyone else have all the neighboring civs already knowing our starting techs or was it just me? This threw a major wrench in my plans as it wasn't until 2230 that I finally contacted a distant civ that didn't know Alphabet and Bronze Working.
why do you think that's a mistake? for a 20K game, i feel since we're going to trigger our GA very early with so many wonders being built, it's better to get out of despotism ASAP.
i forgot what happened exactly in my game. construction was learned from a neighbor and Seoul only reached pop12 half way through the GA. (when my GA started, i only had 2 cities. it remained so most of my GA).

It was a mistake in that by the time I got Ceremonial Burial I had to wait for my Colossus build to finish to get my Temple in. If I had known that I wouldn't be able to trade my starting techs until 2230 I would have made a quick CB run before starting for Republic. I became a Republic 960 years before my Golden Age, so I could have researched CB and still had time to research Republic.

I personally went for CB right away. Simply because I had decided to go 20K and I cannot gamble on meeting someone with CB as early as I need it. It's like I always start on Pottery when I have a settler factory to set up straight away.

My wonder city is not the capital but the second one, and that seems to be different from most others that so far gave reports on 20K. I did that for several reasons:
1. Capital population is limited to 6 until you get Construction (think most people settled without fresh water).
2. Capital makes with time a nice settler factory which makes it possible divert to empire building and warfare when 20K city doesnt need attention.
3. I saw that capital would have better production capacity, but hoped that potential leaders I would get could make up for it. I planned on leader farming for the small wonders.

Predator http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif
Settled on the SE hill. Build warrior->granary->worker->settlers.
Next two cities built curragh first.
Science pottery->writing->CoL->philosophy slingshot to republic in 1300 - 4 turn anarchy.
Not much luck with the Ai. They researched math only in 1200 despite me distributing all techs available.
Entered MA in 775 by trading construction for currency, which I had to research myself.

3950BC settled Seoul
2710BC settled P'yongyang
2470BC settled Wonsan
2150BC settled Pusan
1990BC settled Namp'o
1830BC settled Cheju
1650BC settled Hyangsan
1450BC settled Ulsan
1350BC settled Inch'on and Pyongsong
1275BC settled Taejon
1200BC settled Paegam
1125BC settled Manp'o
1050BC settled Kaesong
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/klarius_c11_0.jpg
14 cities, 38 pop
all techs except currency, construction and monarchy
3 granaries, 1 harbor, 1 library
4 warriors, 2 curraghs, 13 workers+1 slave, 1 settler
all contacts, no embassies
950BC settled Chonju
775BC settled Seriwu

I'm still undecided what to do with this game. Could end up as a 100k, if I have the stamina to go through it on this monster map.

You cannot do anything about it in C3C :( This bug was fixed, so that even if you new how to reroll, it would get you the same result.Still works for me... :hmm:

Still works for me... :hmm:

Really? Seeveral people consistently reported that they reroll the same number -1 turn. I assumed that it was fixed, I do not even do this anymore :hmm:

Really? Seeveral people consistently reported that they reroll the same number -1 turn. I assumed that it was fixed, I do not even do this anymore :hmm:I can't say I've looked in exact detail, but rerolling one-less turns is even worse than before (from a balance perspective). :eek:

It isn't rolling a turn less. What actually happens is that the transition from IT to the actual turn is one of the turns counted in anarchy, since when you revolt IT you don't get any production.

I think I do not understand what you are talikng about :confused:

Well, I am not sure enough that I am right to try to explain it, but I'll just say that rerolling doesn't mean a turn is lost on anarchy.

I think what Bed_head is saying is that the first anarchy turn "roll" occurs in between turns, but the second occurs on the "next" turn. So if you got a 4-turn anarchy, and on the reroll you got a 3-turn anarchy, you really didn't save any turns.

However, I seem to recall getting a reduction of more than one turn in C3C. I can't be sure though, because I have gotten a short anarchy and not "rerolled" in the last several games.

I think what Bed_head is saying is that the first anarchy turn "roll" occurs in between turns, but the second occurs on the "next" turn. So if you got a 4-turn anarchy, and on the reroll you got a 3-turn anarchy, you really didn't save any turns.

However, I seem to recall getting a reduction of more than one turn in C3C. I can't be sure though, because I have gotten a short anarchy and not "rerolled" in the last several games.

That is what I thought I said, but I think you just said it more clearly. I am glad to see that someone agrees. However, I think that rerolls do work. It is just that the "big picture" roll is actually a turn more at first, but if you were to check once the next turn starts, it will be down one. Have I just confused everyone again?

I think what Bed_head is saying is that the first anarchy turn "roll" occurs in between turns, but the second occurs on the "next" turn. So if you got a 4-turn anarchy, and on the reroll you got a 3-turn anarchy, you really didn't save any turns.

That's what I thought.

However, I seem to recall getting a reduction of more than one turn in C3C. I can't be sure though, because I have gotten a short anarchy and not "rerolled" in the last several games.

Well, I will start rerolling when I have >5 anarchy, just in case :mischief: . Though, I do suspect that it doesn't work in C3C :( .

Although....Some cities must have been processed in order to get the 'big picture' roll - because you've got enough science to complete the tech.

Does make me wonder if its just updating and gives you the option before its incremented the turn counter. Note that the variable is stored in-save as anarchy turns left - maybe it de-increments that inter-turn as well.

That whole issue is why I decided I couldn't explain, as I wasn't exactly sure where it all happened. One thing I do know is that all the commerce is computed before any shields, so it isn't an issue of some cities commerce going towards the gov tech and some not going, or anything like this. I'll have to pay more attention in games from now on.

That is what I thought I said, but I think you just said it more clearly. I am glad to see that someone agrees. However, I think that rerolls do work. It is just that the "big picture" roll is actually a turn more at first, but if you were to check once the next turn starts, it will be down one. Have I just confused everyone again?
No confusion here: clear as a bell! However, this one has me taken back a bit:

Does make me wonder if its just updating and gives you the option before its incremented the turn counter. Note that the variable is stored in-save as anarchy turns left - maybe it de-increments that inter-turn as well.?
Is there a way you can tell if the variable that is stored is overwritten or just decremented?

Again, not sure that I understand what you, guys, are talking about :confused:.
Time to reload :sleep:

Is there a way you can tell if the variable that is stored is overwritten or just decremented?Not really - not without direct-memory access (something like powerbar). Otherwise, you don't have an opportunity to save.

I think testing is the much easier option.

Before Spoiler 2, Here is some info for fellow 20K gang:

AA Buildings:

Palace 3950 BC
Temple 1750 BC
Collossus 1950 BC
Pyramids 925 BC
Library 800 BC
MoM 390 BC
Great Lib. 110 BC
SoZ 30 AD
Colosseum 130 AD

Entered MA around 590 BC

Look forward to MA & spoiler 2, lots to tell!! :cry:

All I know is I drew a 7-turn anarchy when I revolted from Despotism to Republic. :(

DBear's CotM11O Ancient Age highlights--Open:

Towns founded:
3800BC Seoul
2350 Pyongyang
1650 Wonsan
1425 Pusan
1150 Nampo
925 Cheju
800 Hyangsan
630 Ulsan
530 Inchon, Middelburg (taken from Dutch)

Technologies:
4000BC Bronze + Alpha (start)
2350 Pottery (trade)
2190 Ironwork (learn), Warcode + Wheel + CB (trade)
2110 Mason (trade)
1830 Mystic (trade)
1790 Writing (trade)
1550 Horseback (trade)
1175 Philo (learn) (Celts beat us by 1 turn!), Maps (trade)
1000 Poly + Law + Math (trade)
490 Construct + Monarch (trade)
250 Currency (learn), Lit + Repub (trade)

Scores:
1000BC: 104 Firaxis, last in power. 2506 QSC.
Anc: 183 Firaxis, still last. 4% land, 9% population. 1 settler, 9 workers, 6 warriors, 5 archers, 3 swords, 1 galley, 2 curraghs.


Stats:
Land: 5 towns, 65 squares.
Population: 3 happy, 6 content, 1 sad.
Diplomacy: 7 contacts, no embassies.
Units: 1 settler, 6 workers, 6 warriors, 2 curraghs. 5 vets, 3 regulars.
Production: 46 food, 134 shields, 4 gold.
Buildings: 2 rax, grain.

Wars:
550BC-370BC: Dutch crossed the strait and founded a town on the incense. This is an act of war!
370BC- : Vikings for same reason. Have to show that we can't be pushed around!

contacts:
2350BC Celts
2190 Dutch
2110 Carthage
1790 Vikings
1325 Mongols
1250 Japan
1000 India

Miscellany
975BC: Vikings try to extort, they back down.
900BC: Celts demand 5 gold. We give it.
775: Dutch found Middleburg on the incense in the north on MY side of the strait. This means war!
250BC: Revolt--7 turn anarchy.

Formed a line of warriors se of Carthage to block them from my lands.

Predator.

I started by moving the settler southeast and founded Seoul on the spot. The worker moved east and roaded the bonus cow. I then built a curragh and warrior for exploration, following up with a settler. When the warrior spotted the little lake to the north, Seoul was converted into a settler factory, Pyongyang being positioned order to get water to the game. In seeing other people's spoilers, I now realise that I should have brought the water to the cattle (:wallbash: )

Pyongyang followed through with another curragh, a worker and a couple of warriors for further exploration. Things moved quickly and somewhere around 1400BC I had contact with all the civs.

When I discovered the Ivory to the far west, I switched Pyongyang to a Colossus, with the intention of eventually building the Statue of Zeus. This seemed especially important because of our lack of horses and iron. Paranoid as always, I thought we didn’t have either (it was only around 1200BC that I finally discovered the iron to the north). Still… Zeus is a very useful wonder and I don’t regret going for it. I went to a lot of work to reach that Ivory on time, just making it as Pyongyang reached 200 shields. I built a city beside the resource and then went to plop a colony down on it. Then I found out that you can’t build colonies on your own terrain. :grr: You can, however, build outposts!! WTF? It later occurred to me that perhaps the outpost would have a road and thus it would have been just as good as a colony. I tested this later. The answer is "no". Outposts do not have automatic road. Wanyhay, the Statue was duly built in 1075BC. Because the build got mixed up with my anarchy, this little mistake cost me two ACs : :mad:

Because of my obsession with the Gods, I tried an unusual move with science, researching Math after Writing instead of CoL. This wasn’t too risky because the AI already knew Polytheism so I could take Monarchy as my free tech instead of Republic upon learning Philosophy. I would certainly get a valuable tech for free, even if it wasn't the one I wanted. However, my main hope was that someone would learn Code of Laws for me. Willie came up with it just two turns before I completed Philosophy. Woo-hoo!


In 1275BC I revolted, drawing a 5-turn anarchy and in 1150BC the Republic of Korea was duly formed. I started re-arranging my population to fit the new government and was shocked to find that I had zero unit support! My “army” of seven workers, five warriors and two curraghs was costing me 28 GPT!!! I then went back to the startup thread to see if I hadn’t misread the Predator handicaps whereupon I discovered that this had been a mistake. Ainwood then corrected my save. Thank you. :worship:


In 975BC the Dutch and the Mongols demanded tribute and I told them both to go stuff it, so I found myself with two wars on my hands when my total army consisted of three warriors and a regular ancient cav :eek: Plus side: plenty of war happiness. :rolleyes: In 900 BC, I learnt currency and a couple of civs had construction. I waited a couple of rounds to get enough money for an embassy with the Celts, in which time I traded alliance against the Dutch and currency for construction and entered the Middle Ages, drawing engineering as my free tech. I soon brought the Indians into the other war.

Plans: Amsterdam has been building ToA forever. We want that.

Edit: Spoiler info removed

Um, Abegweit, methinks that's too much of a spoiler...

Um, Abegweit, methinks that's too much of a spoiler...
i agree... since spoiler 2 is out, let's move it over there..

Um, Abegweit, methinks that's too much of a spoiler...

Spoiler info removed...
i agree... since spoiler 2 is out, let's move it over there..

Since I have not yet qualified for that thread... nope. not yet.

How so?

i guess it's just because of some "special" requirement for this spoiler:
quote from the 1st post from Karasu:
Please try to:
- limit the discussion of map features to your initial surroundings (no minimaps)
- avoid discussing resources (especially those ones )
- avoid discussing Middle-Ages matters

:)

Hmmm.

Missed that. Sorry :blush:

If Karasu (or another moderator) feels that my post needs to be changed, I welcome him to do it.

I was just so proud of having adapted to the map that I never even thought that it might be spoilerish. Sorry to all.

i guess it's just because of some "special" requirement for this spoiler:
quote from the 1st post from Karasu:
Please try to:
- limit the discussion of map features to your initial surroundings (no minimaps)
- avoid discussing resources (especially those ones )
- avoid discussing Middle-Ages matters

:)
After re-thinking what you said, I have taken out the stuff...

Now I can moderate while I sleep :P

Seriously, well self-policed, guys. Thanks. :thumbsup:

Mursilis reached for the aspirin bottle and a hot cup of black coffee. Cleopatra had kept him out way too late and he had one too many Tequila shots with her and Joan before calling it a night. What he needed now was a quite morning and a nap during lunch. He looked at his agenda for the day and the only pressing item was selecting an expedition leader for the upcoming launch. Whether it was the classical music in the background or the slight haze that everything appeared to have, he decided that it was time for a quiet leader and a cultural quest. He checked the available leaders and unfortunately the king of culture, Hammurabi was off at an art and poetry exhibition. Wang Kon would be a suitable replacement and he was available. Moving slowly he pushed intercom button and had the Korean leader assigned to the new colony.

Wang Kon was lying in a hammock on his veranda listening to “In a quiet way” when the news came that he was to lead a new colony. He was quite pleased to read the details of the assignment, quickly packed and headed to the spaceport to join the colonists. The trip was uneventful and as expected the nearby livestock were would be the pillar of his new capital’s growth. After directing his followers to start Seoul to the southeast, he directed his workers to begin a mine on the cattle. He needed to know more details about the local surroundings so as soon as possible a brave warrior named Achilles set forth to explore the countryside. Soon afterward a canoe named Drake would leave Seoul to begin circling the land. Not long after, another paddle boat named Hudson would set off from his second city Pyongyang in the other direction.

Hudson was the first of the intrepid explorers to make contact, meeting the Vikings in 2670 BC; however they had no use for any Korean trades. The following cycle, Achilles met the Carthaginian leader and was able successfully exchange technologies. Now the Vikings were ready to deal and both pottery & warrior code were now known to the Koreans. In 2590 BC, the first cultural building, a temple was completed in Seoul and a giant bronze statue was begun. Citizens from nearby cities were recruited to improve Seoul and to add to the population of the capital. In 2270 BC the Dutch were met by Drake however gained nothing for Korea in this meeting. In 1790 BC, Hudson met the Mongol peoples and once again the trade doors opened and this time Mysticism, The Wheel and Horseback Riding were added, though the lack of any nearby stock, made this of minimal value.

The year 1700 BC was quite prosperous as Seoul completed what would be the first of many great wonders, Colossus was added to the city and Achilles met the Celts and arranged a deal to acquire iron working and to Wang Kon’s surprise, he had settled a pair of cities next to iron supplies. With Hudson’s contact of Japan in 1550 BC, only rumors of a tribe from India remained unmet. Wang Kon was disappointed to learn that the Celts had beaten him to the knowledge of Philosophy and now also knew of Mathematics. He was consoled by the completion of the Oracle in Seoul in 1075 BC and the trades he was able to make to acquire Map Making and Polytheism. In 1100 BC the Ambassador from the Netherlands demanded the Code of Laws. The Dutch leader had been offered the knowledge the before this day and had declined to pay reasonable price. With Wang Kon’s refusal, the Dutch declared war on his peaceful nation. At 1000 BC, his tiny empire consisted of four towns and a settler in route to a fifth site. [Editor’s Note: Seoul culture 422 with 13cpt].

Wang Kon was happy to sell Philosophy to the Dutch leader for gold as peace was signed ending 225 years of a phony war. With the completion of the Statue of Zeus in Seoul in 670 BC, the Koreans would now have offensive troops. The newly crowned King of Korea Wang Kon was not happy. He had been blackmailed by the Mongols, Japanese, Celts and Vikings for knowledge and gold. He would have to finally begin adding military might to his nation. In 110 AD, Seoul completed the Great Library and with the acquisition of the Republic and Currency, the Kingdom of Korea entered the Middle Ages and welcomed in the Golden Age of Korea in 130 AD. [Editor’s Note: Seoul culture 1413 with 30cpt).

Predator class.

The map has been very peculiar. Considering fresh water a decided matter, I have settler similar to DaveMcW but mined the cow, really don't know why. Later in the game, it was irrigated. The opening was rather uneventful. It was a straight 4-turn settler factory under Despotism and then under Republic wasting a few shields but somehow functional.

The map is not so bad indeed, rather productive but needed a lot of workers, huge numbers of them. And it was possible to bring fresh water almost everywhere. By the end of QSC, I had 10 cities, 26 citizens, few improvements, mostly barracks and a granary, 10 each of workers and warriors, even an archer and 3 curraghs.

The unit support for Predator hurts a lot indeed and it was not possible to keep decent research rate and more or less adequate military. Also, AIs were surprisingly powerful for the Regent level, more close to Emperor. Still, Republic slingshot worker well and revolt has been finished around 1100 BC. I then researched Literature and turned off science for a little bit to ease the burden of military. The focus had been on improvement of the land and settling empty spaces. I also settled wines and gems islands to the west and needed some cash to rush harbors there.

Wonder city north of game (not 20K cultural, just city) built SoZ and Colossus, later on FP, and early in the Middle Ages (entered around 600BC) I have jumped the Palace to a central location. This actually had a huge benefit since the starting location had been weird.

resources comments removed - AlanH

It was certainly possible to get to Middle Ages substantially faster. But predator level really hurts, mostly with unit support which is just a plain disaster. Should have played open instead.

Sounds like you have a good game going, Akots. However, I don't think we are supposed to talk about the Particular Resource you mention near the end of your spoiler. I might be wrong though. Can someone confirm? I have been delaying my AA post because I can't discuss game decisions without metioning that or the terrain in parts of the map outside our starting area.

That's what I quite deservedly got chewed out about a few posts back on this thread edited

Ah ha! I suspected that was what your self-censorship was about.

I also posted a minimap. :blush:

From now on, I read the first post CAREFULLY before posting spoilers.

Edit: I really don't see what was wrong about my mea culpa, though. It doesn't take much insight to know what the critical feature of this game is.

Well, the first post does not explicitly tell discussion of which resource is not allowed. ;)

Sounds like you have a good game going, Akots. ...

The problem is that I'm playing it more multiplayer/PBEM-style again. Like, first settle whatever land I have even though it is corrupt and food-poor like desert/tundra and it comes at the expense of producing some early military. Then, build some culture to be able to capture cities and hold them (this is Regent after all). Then and only then go onto offensive in an organized way making sure you can kill what you should without relying on RNG or other surprise counter attacks from AI to cripple the offense. And of course, improve the economy with Libraries and Markets.

It seems that there are Regent level games which are played substantially more difficult compared to just normal regent level games and this is one of them. Besdies, it is a universal approach and works all the way to Sid level as well as against a human opponent. Alas, in COTM, it does not seem to be competitive enough.

Out of curiosity, should anyone even be reading this thread who doesn't know about the resource issues? I'm not sure why the mods have chosen to make it taboo. But c'est la vie.

As for me, I went for a 20K victory. I founded Seoul near the fresh water and made that my 20k city. I didn't keep a detailed log this game, but if I'm remembering right, in terms of Ancien Age wonders, I snagged the Colossues, the Great Library, and the Great Lighthouse. A goody hut near Carthaginian territory gave me a settler, which allowed me to secure a source of ivory, but alas ... I was beaten to the Statue of Zeus by one of the other civs. All in all, it was a promising (but not great) Ancient Age.

I'm not sure why the mods have chosen to make it taboo.It's down to the game designers to define the spoiler rules for their games. As a mod who doesn't design games, I just try to police the rules they specify.

It's down to the game designers to define the spoiler rules for their games. As a mod who doesn't design games, I just try to police the rules they specify.

Fair enough -- as a player, I just try to follow the rules that are specified. It just seemed like a strange rule to me, so I was wondering if there was something obvious I was missing.

Fair enough -- as a player, I just try to follow the rules that are specified. It just seemed like a strange rule to me, so I was wondering if there was something obvious I was missing.
C3C does not give access to map trading until MA. Not everyone will have a fully explored map so discussing where certain resources are located could be "revealing" more than the reader have actually uncovered in his/her game. Or at least that is the way I interpret the gist of that rule for this spoiler.

Sorry folks.
I have been away more than I had anticipated, so I could not clarify earlier the 'resources' issue. I tried to do so in the first post, now.

As you point out, it is quite clear what is the Particular Resource which is most affected by the "spoiler" rule. The rest can or cannot be a spoiler, depending on a large number of conditions: I guess that we might spend quite a lot of time discussing them, but in the end -just to cut it short- it's up to your judgement, really.
I should have made it clearer upfront. Sorry :blush:

@Karasu: Sure thing, it is your game and you know better what can be discussed and what cannot be discussed. But please state clearly what can be discussed and what cannot be discussed in the first post. I've played almost to the end already and still don't understand the point. :confused:

You mention about something everyone should understand and some self-policing issues. Well, apparently not everyone is smart enough to figure it out. ;)

Better late than never, so they say...

Predator class, going for a OCC. I hope there will be a few of us OCC’ers to compare amongst ourselves. (I know DocT is going OCC as well, so there is at least one).

I took the game, and looked at the starting spot. Not an ideal start for OCC, mainly due to the lack of fresh water. Normally, Construction is among the least important techs for an OCC, but here, that’s going to be different. My plan is to try to get Construction with the Philosophy free tech, that probably means self researching Philosophy, while trading for Iron Working and Math. Let’s cross our fingers and hope that the AI’s will collaborate.

There is really only one good spot for an OCC city, the hill tile to the SE. The BG Cow is nice :D , so are the BG’s that fill out rest of the grassland tiles. Can I hope for BG’s under those forests as well? Or is that being a tad too greedy.

I found my one city on 3950BC, the worker road the cow, then worked on the BG’s. My capital built 2 curraghs and 1 warrior, then started on the Colossus.

Mean while, my curraghs met the Vikings and Dutch in 3100BC, Carthage in 2750BC, Mongols in 2150 BC, Celts in 2110 BC, India in 1990 BC, Japan 1910 BC. Come to think of it, my warrior didn’t meet anybody at all.

I completed the Colossus in 2310 BC, then immediate started Pyramids in another pre-build. That turned out to be a mistake, because when I completed the Philo-sling-shot in 1375, and scrolled ahead to complete the MoM on the same turn, I wasted a lot of shields. Otherwise, except for the fact that I completely wasted my wonder induced GA building Aqueduct and Granary, the Philo-gambit was a complete success. I was able to broker a min-researched Writing for Iron Working in 1725BC, and for Math in 1575BC.

After Philosophy, the next most important tech is Republic, so I immediately started researching on CoL, then Republic afterwards. Around this time, my exploring curragh found out that the Mongols and Indians were at war, with India have at least one first ring city razed.

825 BC, Mongols complete the Pyramids. On the same turn, the Oracle and the SoZ fall in cascade.

Many uneventful turns later, the first “uneventful war” started. A Dutch galley dropped a regular sword onto the mountain tile to the NW of Seoul. I had taken some time out during my GA to build a barrack and trained a pair of spears (did I mention I wasted my entire GA :lol: ). Since I was over size 7 and on a hill, I wasn’t too worried about my chances. I did take advantage of the situation by finishing my Republic research with a 22gpt payment to the Dutch. I did ask them to leave immediately, but didn’t get the “leave or declare war” option. Funny, I always thought I’d get that option when the military unit is right next to a city.

Anyhow, I asked them to leave again the next turn. This time they declared. I used Republic to buy Poly from Celts, as well as buying both the Celts and Carthage into alliance. I needed to build as many early wonders as I can, because I have decided NOT to build the GL, and instead rely on the C3C wonder tourism to carry me through. I have already complete the Colossus, the MoM, and the GW. The next wonder to go after is the HG. And since I want to avoid an early culture victory, I still haven’t built the temple or library yet.

550 BC, I revolted out of Despotism, drawing 4 turn anarchy. And in 290 BC, I entered the Middle Ages.


==============================

Turn 0 4000 BC
- settler SE, worker to cattle

Turn 1 3950 BC
- worker road
- start curragh
- min research to Writing

Turn 2 3900 BC
Turn 3 3850 BC
Turn 4 3800 BC
- worker to bg

Turn 5 3750 BC
- worker mine

Turn 6 3700 BC
- curragh->curragh

Turn 7 3650 BC
Turn 8 3600 BC
Turn 9 3550 BC
Turn 10 3500 BC
- curragh->warrior

Turn 11 3450 BC
- culture expands

Turn 12 3400 BC
- warrior->Colossus

Turn 13 3350 BC
Turn 14 3300 BC
- worker finish road, move to another bg

Turn 15 3250 BC
- grows to size 3, lux to 10%
- worker roads

Turn 16 3200 BC
Turn 17 3150 BC
Turn 18 3100 BC
- worker mines
- meets Vikings and Dutch

Turn 19 3050 BC
Turn 20 3000 BC
Turn 21 2950 BC
Turn 22 2900 BC
- size 4, lux to 30%

Turn 23 2850 BC
Turn 24 2800 BC
- worker finish mine, to bg

Turn 25 2750 BC
- meet Carthage

Turn 26 2710 BC
Turn 27 2670 BC
Turn 28 2630 BC
Turn 29 2590 BC
- size 5, lux to 50%

Turn 30 2550 BC
Turn 31 2510 BC
Turn 32 2470 BC
Turn 33 2430 BC
Turn 34 2390 BC
Turn 35 2350 BC
Turn 36 2310 BC
- 6gpt + 99g to Vikings for Wheel + CB
- Wheel + CB to Carthage for Masonry + Pottery
- Masonry to Vikings for WC + 109g
- colossus->Pyramid prebuild

Turn 37 2270 BC
Turn 38 2230 BC
Turn 39 2190 BC
- Viking and Dutch start Pyramids

Turn 40 2150 BC
- Meet Mongols

Turn 41 2110 BC
- Meet the Celts, trade Alpha for 55g

Turn 42 2070 BC
Turn 43 2030 BC
- celts start Pyramids

Turn 44 1990 BC
- meet the Indian

Turn 45 1950 BC
Turn 46 1910 BC
- meet the Japanese

Turn 47 1870 BC
Turn 48 1830 BC
Turn 49 1790 BC
Turn 50 1750 BC
- Dutch demands 26g, gets it

Turn 51 1725 BC
- min research on Writing is done
- Writing+34g to Vikings for HBR
- HBR to Celts for Iron, Myst + 2g
- HBR to Mongols for 82g
- HBR to Dutch for 61g
- Myst to Vikings for 124g
- tech to Philo in 14 at -9gpt, hope to buy math and get construction for free

Turn 52 1700 BC
Turn 53 1675 BC
Turn 54 1650 BC
Turn 55 1600 BC
Turn 56 1575 BC
- buy Math+41g from India for Writing + HBR
- sell Math to Mongols for worker

Turn 57 1550 BC
Turn 58 1525 BC
Turn 59 1500 BC
Turn 60 1475 BC
Turn 61 1450 BC
Turn 62 1425 BC
Turn 63 1400 BC
- 1 turn to Philo

Turn 64 1375 BC
- Philo->Construction->big picture to complete MoM->aquaduct
- GA!
- Col in 16 turns

Turn 65 1350 BC
Turn 66 1325 BC
Turn 67 1300 BC
Turn 68 1275 BC
Turn 69 1250 BC
Turn 70 1225 BC
Turn 70 1200 BC
- Aqua->Barrack
- build a bunch of embassies

Turn 71 1175 BC
Turn 72 1150 BC
Turn 73 1125 BC
- philo to Vikings for MM + 30g
- philo to Celts for Col+10g
- research set to Rep


Turn 74 1100 BC
Turn 75 1075 BC
Turn 76 1050 BC
Turn 77 1025 BC
Turn 78 1000 BC
Turn 79 975 BC
- sights rubble near mongol territory


Turn 80 950 BC
Turn 81 925 BC
- it was an Indian 1st ring city

Turn 82 900 BC
- GA is over

Turn 83 875 BC
Turn 84 850 BC
Turn 85 825 BC
- Vikings build Pyramids, Oracle, SoZ fall in Cascade

590 BC
- Dutch sneak attack us
- buy Rep from them for 22gpt,

570 BC
- Ask Dutch to leave, they declare
- sign Celt in Alliance for Republic, also get Poly in deal
- also sign Carthage for Poly + CoL

550 BC
- our spear defends against sword.
- revolt, 4-turn anarchy

290 BC
- Enter middle age

Having just finished a Regent-level OCC (not COTM), I can safely say that the GL is pointless and that you can safely expect to remain ahead in tech throughout most of, if not all of, the game. (I did build the GL in that game, but only for the 6cpt.)

Having just finished a Regent-level OCC (not COTM), I can safely say that the GL is pointless and that you can safely expect to remain ahead in tech throughout most of, if not all of, the game. (I did build the GL in that game, but only for the 6cpt.)
I built the GL for denial. I haven't got my act together to get the 1st spoiler up, but will probably wait til I qualify for the 2nd due to the resource gag order.

You mention about something everyone should understand and some self-policing issues. Well, apparently not everyone is smart enough to figure it out. ;)

It's rather me not being good enough at stating what I have in mind... ;)

Actually, thnigs are made a little more complicated by the fact that if I really say what you shouldn't talk about, well... :crazyeye: ...then I've said it!

What I was implying is that there are one or two resources whose location is key to deciding your approach to the game.
Unfortunately, with map trading not being available in the AA, some players might not have discovered them yet.
So, other than that, what you post here should not be terribly spoilerish -for instance, resources around the starting position is ok.

I take your point, anyway. Next time I'll try to be as precise as possible -and look for different map featuers maybe. What kind of map would you like? ;)

... What kind of map would you like? ;)

Please, don't get me wrong. I like the maps and games and think that they are the greatest maps/games with very thorough playtesting and extremely balanced which is very hard to achieve for single player games. And I'm 100% happy about the GOTMs/COTMs. Like I said, it is your game and you set the rules, it is just that some players (like me and probably a few others) don't understand the spoiler rules very well but this is a very minor issue indeed.

Regarding wishes, really don't know. May be time for a brutal Deity level game? Similar to GOTM37?

... What kind of map would you like? ;)
If I could make a wish about a civilization to play, how about a Conquest game with India. Didnt their fancy elephants get an additional hitpoint? Seeing how lethal Ancient Cavalry can be, maybe war oliphants have a new allure as well.

God knows they were annoying me something fierce a few days ago. Getting to use them on offense would be very cool.

Renata

May be time for a brutal Deity level game? Similar to GOTM37?
Don't you think more like GOTM14? I wouldn't call GOTM37 a brutal Deity game, with the food bonuses and the land bridge. It had it's difficulties, but brutal? No, see page 14 in the GOTM saga.

Otherwise I agree with you. But I suspect the hardest games need an insane amount of game testing.

GOTM14 has been replayed about a year ago by 3 teams with RBC rules (at least 2 teams were able to stick to them till the end) and it was rather easy indeed, still puzzled why it had been such a trouble originally:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78780
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78781
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78782

Must agree, it was possible to lose that game. With GOTM37 it was not so easy to lose indeed but it was very brutal in terms of bloodshed.

This is a spoiler thread - so please don't threadjack it. You're welcome to take those other discussions to another thread, and you'll probably get more discussion there anyway. :)

@akots, I didn't get you wrong at all. Your criticism wast most probably correct, and I understood it to have a constructive value. :)

Of course, this doesn't mean that I will be able to come up with better criteria the next time I set up a COTM... :crazyeye:

Open, barbs fixed
20K, not in Seoul

I moved my settler SE and founded Seoul. I got burned last time I tried a 20K in the capitol, so I decided to put P'yongyang up by the lake. My shield output wasn't very high, but I hoped the early size 12 would help balance it out. I built P'yongyang in 3050 and started on a temple. During the AA I got temple (2230 BC), colossus (1425 BC), MoM (975 BC), SoZ (670), and a library (510 BC).

Mostly I used the ancient cavalry as units to disband. I had a small war against the Vikings, but mostly there was no action in it, so I could afford to get rid of the AC.

I researched at max towards philosophy, with just a single deviation to get CB for my 20K city. Despite this, I didn't get philosophy first. The Mongols got literature from this and started the great library. I let them have it. They were good researchers in my game, but the rest of the AI were slow, as expected.

I enter the MA in 290 BC, not too far from finishing the HG, and feeling that the 2nd city approach was a bad choice. Now, having finished, I'm not sure whether it was or not. I'll have to think about it more.

Open class, yet another 20k attempt!

The Ancient Age (in which PaperBeetle is hoist by his own petard)

... begins on a small peninsula with good red meat all around. I'd like to settle in place actually, if it weren't a mountain. Moving the worker north reveals lots more map, and with the help of some fog-gazing, the most powerful spot throughout all ages is determined to be N,NE. This is where I found Seoul (3900 bc), which will be my Eternal City of Culture. A couple of warriors and a curragh later, the feeder city P'yongyang is built on the south coast, and Seoul starts the culture hunt.

Techwise, I head straight for Philosophy, determined to be first to get there, and aware that there are lots of other civs who started with Alphabet. I should have gambled on delaying a while, or barked up a different branch of the tree. By the time I get Writing (2190 bc), I have met Ragnar, Hanni and Will with my numerous explorers, but still haven't produced my third settler. Contact with Temujin follows shortly. I am trading up the tech ladder quickly, but still don't have much of an empire.

Culture in Seoul is going okay, with Colossus followed by temple, but being stuck at size is beginning to grate. Still I don't realise that I'm on the wrong branch of the tech tree, and I follow Philosophy with Laws (free) and Republic. The trouble is, Republic is so expensive that my research is essentially stalled. My lack of base commerce doesn't help; I decided to try and block the Carthaginians and my third city is founded as late as 1525 bc, on the isthmus leading to our continent, claiming the ivory.

About this time, all the AI start setting up wonder builds, so I figure it is time to distract them a little. I dow on the most distant civs and give my neighbours techs for alliances against them. In 1250 bc, I meet the last civ, India and, after finishing P'yongyang's granary, start my fourth settler. My fourth city is founded on the coast northwest of Seoul, expanding my empire in the direction of that ivory outpost. Meanwhile, Seoul completes the Oracle and starts a library.

At this point, a mysterious wise man arrives from the east and informs Wang Kon that his Quick Start Challenge is over and he has scored 3197 points.
QSC Stats:
4 towns with 12 citizens and 61 tiles territory
All ancient techs except Construction, Currency, Republic (~500 beakers to go) and Monarchy
1 worker, 6 warriors, 2 curraghs
1 granary, 1 walls, 1 temple, Colossus, Oracle
233 gold in the bank
All civs contacted; embassies with Scandinavia, Carthage and Holland
307 culture at 14cpt (why doesn't QSC scoring take account of culture? It's kind of important these days, what with everyone doing 20k games :) )

And so on with the ancient age. Seoul finishes its library and starts on a bigger and more Wonderful one. Then the Mongols call me up and demand Literature. Of course I tell them where to get off; this is precisely the kind of phoney war I've been trying to set up to slow everybody down. Gleefully, I ally the Indians against the Mongols, and feel smug. And then a Mongol galley arrives. It drops an archer onto the same mountain I started the game on. Oh dear. This one archer chews its way through four warriors at the cost of a single hit point. If he takes down the fifth, he will capture P'yongyang, so I give Temujin Construction for peace. I have broken my alliance with Gandhi, and my rep is shot. Well, I guess I asked for that.

Finally I discover Republic in 570 bc and spend 4 turns revolting. The Dutch have beaten me to the Glibrary, so I settle for the Lighthouse and start on Seoul's aqueduct. Just before this is complete, I trade Republic for Currency (although most civs got Republic before me) and enter the medieval era, getting Engineering for free. The date is 290 bc and I have six cities; two are just resource-squatting and the other four are actually productive parts of my empire.

Seoul's culture at 290 bc (dates in F5 style):
Palace 3900 bc
Colossus 1870 bc
Temple 1700 bc
Oracle 1100 bc
Library 1000 bc
Lighthouse 370 bc
... makes 822 culture at 21cpt.

Roll on the medieval, when things go slightly better. I think.

Open

Decide to settle Seoul on the hill NNE to get settler factory started. Whilst researching pottery, we send out a couple of warriors exploring and a curragh in each direction. After learning Pottery its full steam ahead to the Rep slingshot.

I decide that since available land is a bit hilly, i'll keep my core tightish, so I settle Pyonyang on the south hill and Wonsan to the NE. We meet the Celts in 2390BC and trade for CB. In 2270BC, me meet the Vikings and they trade us Warrior Code. 2190BC sees contact with the Dutch and Carthage, whom we learn the Wheel and Masonry from. The immediate lack of horsies prompts me to start planning for the occupation of the ivory near Carthage borders for SoZ. Pop Mysticism from a hut in 1870BC. Soon after we learn IW from Carthage and realise that the northern iron could become a tempting target for the Dutch, so the fertile plains to the north are soon settled.
We meet the Mongols in 1650BC. In 1350BC we meet Japan and India. Then disaster strikes! The Celts learn Philosophy two turns before me! So ashamed. :blush: Trade for HBR, Poly, Maths, and Mapmaking with our stupider neighbours.

Okay... new plan. I'm unaccustomed to not getting Republic. And spending 40ish turns researching is not tempting... I'm gonna take a gamble and try to get Feudalism as my freebie on entry to Middle Ages. Now, what goal to concentrate on? Fastest Space and Diplo is effectively out without Republic, and I am not a good enough warmonger yet. I didn't plan for 20K, so 100K it is. Should be a good way to teach me how to use Feudalism. Lets start researching Literature and get a headstart on some early libraries then. I wonder if I have enough time to play 100K this month?

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QSC Stats:

13 cities, 25 pop
3 granary, 2 barracks, 1 temple.
3 settlers, 5 workers, 10 warriors, 2 curraghs
all contacts
all AA techs bar Construction, Currency, Republic, Monarchy, Literature.

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http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/qsc.JPG

After Amsterdam builds the Pyramids in 690BC, this effectively OK's my decision. I need to take Amsterdam to play an effective 100K, but an assault on the Dutch will be tricky. :hmm: I'm going to start a few world wars I think. My military is weak so i'm just going to sit back and build up a nice little AC and sword stack. We learn Currency in 590BC, trade it to the Celts in 570BC for Construction to get access to the Middle Ages. Damn, we get Mono as a freebie... oh well, 100% science on Feudalism....