COTM 11 Spoiler 2: Map, end of the middle ages

This spoiler thread is meant to discuss the middle game phases: wars, diplomacy, and the unfolding of your starting strategy.


To qualify for this spoiler, you must:
1. have reached the industrial ages, or submitted your completed game, and
2. have knowledge of the "full" world map (see below).

Please, try to:
- avoid discussing Industrial-Ages matters (events, tech, resources).


At this point in the game you should have gained knowledge, by direct exploration or by trade, of most of the world map.
In order to participate in this thread, it is necessary that you possess sufficient knowledge of the various inhabited regions: sufficient, that is, to cover at least the land/sea routes between them and the location of the various resources.
This means that if you haven't discovered Navigation, you are not necessarily excluded: I trust you to apply your own judgment to your knowledge of the map being 'sufficient' for the purpose of the thread.


So, how did things fare in the Middle Ages? How did the world scenario evolve?
How did your growth proceed? Did you conquer new lands? Or were you the target of someone else's greed? Or did you choose the peaceful path and set your mind on research or culture?

Oh dear am I the 1st to post??

Here are the buildings for the MA for my beautiful Seoul: :)

Knights Templar 320 AD
Leo's 590 AD
University 630 AD
JSB Cathedral 1030 AD
Shakespeare's 1210 AD
Heroic epic 1265 AD
Cathedral 1275 AD

I lost out on Sistine and had to settle for Leo's. That will probably make this attempt uncompetitive (conquest to start with). It was purely to build the KT so that I could get free units to fight as I was in war most of the time.

Also missed out on Newton's :cry: but had the HE made available in the nick of time. :)

hoping for an 18th century finish, fingers & legs crossed

The middle ages were mostly peaceful for me, and I tried to keep it that way. My main goal was to research and get to the next age as fast as possible. The Vikings declared war on me in 390BC, two turns after getting Invention. I immediately allied with India, and later Carthage. So the only Viking units that made it to my shores were 3 warriors.

Luxuries
Happiness was an issue as the start of the middle ages, and I expanded aggressively towards the luxuries.
750BC: City built on Wines Island
690BC: City Built on Gems Island
390BC: Reverse war weariness from Vikings
370BC: Use ROP to complete Fur trade route with Carthage
350BC: Rush harbor on Wines Island
270BC: Rush harbor on Gems Island
70BC: Rush harbor on the far north Silks.
At the end of the age I could support size 12 cities with no luxury tax, temples, or marketplaces.

Research
I never dropped my science slider below 80% for the entire age. I depended heavily on 1gpt-for-17g loans from the AI. When things got really bad I even took out a few 1gpt-for-7g loans. I was able to cancel most of the loans by selling my latest techs.

1125BC: Free Engineering
825BC: Monotheism (12 turns)
800BC: Trade for Monarchy
690BC: Trade for Feudalism
630BC: Theology (9 turns)
490BC: Education (7 turns)
370BC: Banking (6 turns)
Trade for Invention, Chivalry
290BC: Gunpowder (4 turns)
190BC: Chemistry (5 turns)
90BC: Metallurgy (5 turns)
50BC: Trade for Astronomy, Printing Press
30AD: Physics (4 turns)
110AD: Magnetism (4 turns)
190AD: Theory of Gravity (4 turns)

I entered the Industrial Age with a stack of Hwach'a next to Bergen ready to trigger my golden age.

Open class, goal = fast space launch.

I entered the Middle Ages at a respectable 730 BC, but I was still deep in a Republic recession. I had concentrated so much on libraries that I neglected marketplaces and aqueducts. I gained Engineering as my free tech which I immediately gifted to everyone, but it took me until 210 BC to get Monotheism. During that time, I managed to connect the wines, spices, and furs so I had 5 native luxuries which made life much easier. I learned Theology in 110 BC, Education in 30 AD, and then it was 4 turns per tech for the rest of the Middle Ages. I researched the top half of the tree first, gifting the AI as I went so they could work on the bottom half. I learned Feudalism and Invention via trades before the AI became useless the rest of the game except for buying my outdated techs for gpt (and building cities for me).

The only wonder I completed during the Middle Ages was Copernicus’ Observatory finished in 360 AD. I had no wars during the MA, but I knew I would need more cities to maintain 4-turn research, so after my core had universities, I finally started building military. I built a handful of muskets and Medieval Infantry and a large amount of trebuchets and Hwach’as.

I entered the Industrial Ages in 460 AD preparing an assault on Scandinavia.

Open, going for 20K

Middle Ages

The free tech was Monotheism which was the best one to get in this case. Research orders: <Theology> <Education> <Banking> <Astronomy> <Printing Press> <Democracy> <Free Artistry>. Building orders: cathedral, colosseum, Sistine Chapel, university, Copernicus and Shakespeare. After building Shakespeare I squeezed in a harbour in Seoul. The harbour enables growth to 20 pop with a lot of (uncorrupted) commerce. The commerce would be very useful for the science-pace. Ofcourse pop-20 would also mean pollution. And pollution became a regular guest. Not that I minded that, the only annoying thing was that pollution struck half the time at my irrigated deer, which produced 5 food. I lost in all 4 pop due to that and had to irrigate another tile to get a positive growth in Seoul.

After Shakespeare I didn't go for JS Bach but for Newton's. Newton has a far more culture per shield. I could trade for Feudalism, Engineering and Invention. (The regent-AI researched much faster then I expected.) After Newton was build JS Bach was the best wonder to go for. But it would be completed in the Industrial Ages. The other cities build library, university, marketplace, aquaduct, harbour and barracks, roughly in that order.

Throughout the Middle Ages my army consisted of 1 archer, 6 MI (swordsmen earlier on ofcourse) and a pikeman that came with the joining of Russadir. I made sure that I had good relations with everybody and no hostilities took place. In fact the whole game I never had a war. I gave in to every extortion, even by the weakest of the AI. (A weak AI can bring a strong one in the war.) The only odd thing in foreign policy was that the Vikings always fell back to being annoyed with us. I don't know why. The lack of luxuries was not a problem. Trading with everyone to keep relations good also meant I got 4 or 5 luxuries. I could only trade with techs.


20K-EVENTS

3950- palace
3200- temple
2070- Colossus
1225- Oracle
1175- library
590- ----------------- Republic (after 3 turn anarchy)
370- Great Library (start Golden Age)
310- aquaduct
270- ----------------- Middle Ages (free Monotheism)
210- cathedral
130- colosseum
30 ------------------- end Golden Age
270 Sistine Chapel
310 university
390 ------------------ Russadir joins Korea
460 Copernicus' Observatory
560 ------------------ Wonsan builds Forbidden Palace
650 Shakespeare's Theater
670 harbour
850 Newton's University
950 ------------------ Industrial Ages

Enter Middle Ages in 825BC. Get Monotheism as free tech. I set max commerce for a while to be able to rush cathedral turn after Great Library finishes. I then go for Theology and Education discovering the latter in 210BC rusing a university in 110BC, the turn after Hanging Gardens are finished. I then set for Free Artistry to be able to build Shakespeare as quickly as possible and then for Newton. The plan is to come back to the really big builds like Sistine and Bach once the production capacity pumped up with industrialization.

Culture builds
2310BC Temple
1450BC Colossus
1350BC Library
--------------------- 825BC Middle Ages
610BC Great Library
590BC Cathedral
430BC Statue of Zeus
130BC Hanging Gardens
110BC University
300BC Copernicus Obervatory
330AD Colosseum
580AD Shakespeare's Theater
590AD Heroic Epic
630AD Forbidden Palace
--------------------- 730AD Industrial Age

At that time my 20K city is making 70cpt and total culture is 4199.

Leader farming
First Leader in 450AD. I build an army to be able to build Heroic Epic later on. In 560AD I get my second leader. This is perfect 'timing'. I will just get him to the 20K city the turn after Shakespeare is done to rush Heroic Epic. And the turn after Heroic Epic is built luck strikes again. I get my third leader in 600AD. I have a few turns before he is in place to rush FP so I will will build harbor and Marketplace in 20K city in the meanwhile.

I can honestly say the leaders are completely deserved. I am doing heavy farming against the jap border. I have been at war for ages against the Mongols and Celts (two of the most powerful AIs) and they graciously provide me with all the cannon fodder my Trebuchets can take. I have very few elite promotions, but the ones who become elites have LOTS of wins. I never use an elite before I see a redlined bastard with a death wish. War weariness has not been a problem as they declared on me and I am just defending.
Fourth leader appeared in 690AD, and then it dries out...

EDIT: I can also add that Ancient Cavalry got me all leaders, so status of Zeus is worth its weight (and culture) in gold.

Sadly, sometime before the end of the second age, the Vikings declared war and captured my undefended capital. I seem to have a problem with that. I was playing predator and I had about five musket men and a longbowmen for an army.

I could have played through and it would have just been a bump on my histograph but I was having too much fun doing research and making trades so I reloaded and put muskets in the city and kept playing.

Oh well, gotm 42 is starting, maybe I wont mess that up.

The plan is to come back to the really big builds like Sistine and Bach once the production capacity pumped up with industrialization.

Wow, how did you manage to do this? i know it's a regent game, but holding sistine chapel till IA seems a little risky... even if no AI wanted to build it, they might get it from the Sun Zi's Art of war cascade...


for all the 20kers, which there're quite a few this time, can you extrapolate your winning date based on your current game?
i'll post my spoiler once i get back home.
it seems again i made the mistake of building whatever wonders available instead of choosing the one with highest cpt :mad: ...

@ionimplant
I dont think I am spoiling by saying that I got Sistine, but could easily have lost out. One AI built Leonardo one turn before I finished Sistine (I got VERY nervous as I saw that popup), and Sun Tsu was built just after (or just before dont remember). Annoyingly Magellans was lost in a cascade. So yes, I was lucky with Sistine.

And regarding the win date, I am currently in 940AD and I see that CivAssist predicts 1778AD, but I assume it does not take into accont the wonders that will still double in culture nor the wonders yet to build. Maybe there is a way to predict more accurately but I dont know how. The closer it gets to 1700, the happier I will be. In any case its my very first 20K attempt, so I will be happy either way.

Predator

I can be really short about my MA.
I entered the MA around 500 BC (don't have an exact date). I was a builder the entire MA. I entered the IA in 370 AD... Nothing happened at all. :crazyeye:

I rebuilt my military at the start of the MA, having previously concentrated on infrastructure. I resumed the war with Carthage, taking Utica and Leptis minor before getting peace 100 years later in 650 ad. I was behind in technology so I decided to concentrate on getting back up with the others, plus I doubted warriors and swordsmen were going to be a decent deterent with Gunpowder discovered. One mistake I made was to buy Chivlary for 900 gold, as I hadn't realised I had no Horses anyway. I let my cities grow and rebuilt my military for a few hundred years before resuming my war with Carthage in 990 ad. This time my medival infantary and Muskets were easily able to defeat numidians, and I advanced my way through his empire, taking Carthage in 1010 ad and gaining a great leader that I used to build an army. I could have finished him off sooner, but I wanted my Golden age and had to wait in order to bring the UUs to the frontlines. Even then I didn't have much luck with the RNG, and had to wait until 1160ad to trigger it.



shttp://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/cotm11duwarcarthage.JPG

Carthage was by now down to one city on the mainland, with a further 3 cities on islands. I laid seige to the town, hoping I could get him to give me his towns on the nearby Island with a luxury. He was far too stubborn for this. By now a stack of Celts was heading my way, and duly declared. I thus gave the Carthegenians the peace treaty they wanted, and moved my forces to repel the invasion. I also got Japan and the Dutch to ally with me, and the turn prior to the celtic attack the Scandanavians had paid me to have a MPP. The celtic invasion was thus repelled, and he found himself facing a war on 3 fronts. I was now admired in the world, and thus easily traded my way in the Industrial age in 1240 ad.

Carthage was by now down to one city on the mainland, with a further 3 cities on islands. I laid seige to the town, hoping I could get him to give me his towns on the nearby Island with a luxury. He was far too stubborn for this.
well, considering that city has a luxury, his stubboness isn't too surprising. ;)

I had a long drawn out war with Carthage throughout most of the MA. I was doing minimal research (one scientist) after I learned Engineering and got Fuedalism for free. Carthage had the GL in their capital. Unfortunately, those pesky NMs were fantastic defenders (especially when the cities were on hills). I started the war to claim the incense and ivory from them which went pretty well, but their capital was one tough cookie to crack. My first attempt I lost 8 Medieval infantry and a MI army. I ended up having to take all their other cities first and then overtake the capital. The good news is that although this war put me behind in infrastructure, I got 3 luxuries and all the MA techs except Physics and Democracy (and those behind them) by way of the GL so there were not many left to research.

On other fronts, I am playing my first predator game and so I was wondering if anyone figured out which civs started with the extra settlers? I am guessing it was the Mongols and Celts. They have huge empires in my game right now (and of course they are the only ones with horses) :(. I usually do most of my fighting with calvary so this is going to be an interesting game. Man I hope I have coal!!!

The Mongols took all the Japanese cities except for the capital and are presently attacking the Celts with little resistance. I am going to assist them in hopes that I can snag the horse resource.

Also I must note that every civ except Japan and India have declared war on me at least once after demanding tribute. They have mostly just been annoying, but good for war happiness.

I was also able to snag an island with wines on it just before India could which was great since we didn't seem to start with many luxuries nearby. This was accomplished once I was finally able to trade world maps.

Man, how do you guys go so fast with the 20k? I don't think I entered MA until AD, and no MA wonders (Sistine) till like 400AD or so. How do you guys manage to gun so fast for MA, AND get so many wonders without AI finishing them first? I had to do some crazy shifting to avoid getting owned in the cascades...

Did many of you have GA while despotic? I tried my best to avoid it (thus not Great Library), and wondering whether I should've bit the bullet instead (my GA was near the end of MA, and only got to build like 2 wonders with it)

I have (at work right now, so OTOH):
Colossus
Oracle
Hanging Garden
Sistine
Copernicus
Shakespeare
Newton

Someone built Bach's

I'm finding I'll have a lot of "wasted" turns in IA, where I can't build any wonders, since I'm so far away from Modern Age wonders... Any pointers for next time? (I've been doing my best to slow tech pace the whole game...)

Man, how do you guys go so fast with the 20k? I don't think I entered MA until AD, and no MA wonders (Sistine) till like 400AD or so. How do you guys manage to gun so fast for MA, AND get so many wonders without AI finishing them first? I had to do some crazy shifting to avoid getting owned in the cascades...
I'm finding I'll have a lot of "wasted" turns in IA, where I can't build any wonders, since I'm so far away from Modern Age wonders... Any pointers for next time? (I've been doing my best to slow tech pace the whole game...)
it's a learning process... are you going all out for 20K? did you try to make your culture city to maximum production ability ASAP (filling in workers and maintain highest shield production at 0 food excess)? did you research techs in the right order? regent AI normally cannot compete with human players in grabbing wonders... and for regent AI, sometimes you don't even need to slow down the tech race. if you can give more details (date of wonders and techs from you and AI), maybe someone can help you figure out what you did wrong.
BTW, it's true that IA doesn't have many wonders and that's why you should research out of it at full speed.



Did many of you have GA while despotic? I tried my best to avoid it (thus not Great Library), and wondering whether I should've bit the bullet instead (my GA was near the end of MA, and only got to build like 2 wonders with it)

if you got the republic slingshot, which should happen around 1000BC, you should be able to spend your GA in republic..

I am currently in 940AD and I see that CivAssist predicts 1778AD, but I assume it does not take into accont the wonders that will still double in culture

I’ve actually paid attention to this and yes, CivAssist does take into account the doubling of culture. I was really paying attention as my win date was rather late and was hoping the doubling would change that. Unfortunately it didn’t. :sad:

I'll try and add my spoiler later tonight. I'm another 20k player. :)

Open, goal: 20K and minimize RL playtime
first spoiler (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2677377&postcount=10)

30 AD, made peace with viking...
Celts asks for feudilism, i refused. and he didn't go mad.
finally i got another ancient cavalry... my 2nd one... i should have known better to keep my ivory connected. :( that't the army i'm expecting to use again viking but yet because their city disconnect my road network i didn't produce any of them... i was just wondering whether 5 turns have passed while actually more than 20 turns passed. :(

100 AD declare war on Dutch, get Carthage with me, giving him currency and get Celts with me with 23 gpt.

310AD, finally met everyone. but no trading opportunity with everyone being so poor.
Celts made peace with Dutch!!! i was paying them gpt to fight and now they want peace??? pay them 420 gold to make them fight again. i cannot trust them anymore.. :(

330AD declared on Mongol, the strongest civ then, allied Japan, India, Carthage (giving everyone engineering).

Sun Tzu's art of war built in 350AD, preventing any wonder cascade. :)

declare on Viking, get Carthage with me for monotheism

400 AD, everyone is at war...viking constantlyh landing units. the serious threat is 4 swordmen next to my capitol. i only had 3 units defending it... luckily it did't fall.

550AD, learned theology from GL, traded to India for 78 gold and 26gpt!!! :) they're rich!


610 AD, can berserk attack a city from sea? i have one city undefended and one medieval infantry next to it and a berserk choose to attack the unit. ??? strange.

630 AD, sue for peace with viking, with their 2 berserks standing to one of my cities defended by one unit. my reputation was gone since i had deal with India and Carthage against them.. :(

640 AD, declare war on Carthage, my long-term friend... sorry to do that but i have got to get the incense to prevent my cities from rioting

660 AD, Celts asked for 65 gold, i refused and he declared. he's the strongest civ and i'm looking for an opportunity to ally someone against him.
710 AD, learned chemistry and education from GL. :)good job, great library!

980 AD, democracy discovered. traded to celts for 100gpt and 60 gold.
build Bach's cathedral, wonder cascade result in the Copernecius's observatory. there's really no way for me to get it with my current strategy.

1230 AD, enter the industrial age. getting nationalism as free tech. traded to india for 224 gpt and 1251 gold. :)

-3900 Palace
-3100 temple
-2110 colossus
-1250 oracle
-800 MofM
-590 SoZ
-150 great library
-130 library
-50 colosseum
350 sun tzu's art of war
400 cathedral
530 knight templar
780 sistine chapel
790 university
1020 JS Bach's cathedral
1180 shakespear's theater

well, considering that city has a luxury, his stubboness isn't too surprising. ;)

If he just gave me that city, I would leave him alone for the rest of the game....no really. :D

Open, going for 20K
3950- palace
3200- temple
2070- Colossus
1225- Oracle
1175- library
590- ----------------- Republic (after 3 turn anarchy)
370- Great Library (start Golden Age)
310- aquaduct
270- ----------------- Middle Ages (free Monotheism)
210- cathedral
130- colosseum
30 ------------------- end Golden Age
270 Sistine Chapel
310 university
390 ------------------ Russadir joins Korea
460 Copernicus' Observatory
560 ------------------ Wonsan builds Forbidden Palace
650 Shakespeare's Theater
670 harbour
850 Newton's University
950 ------------------ Industrial Ages
Redbad, we remain close -- at 950AD, Seoul in your game, according to my estimation, has 5687 culture and is making 74cpt while mine has 5581 and is making 71cpt. however it seems inevitable that i'm going to lose the race... just due to my stupid building sequence... even my MoM and SoZ couldn't save my game. i really learned a lesson this time. :blush:

Well, this is my first ever GOTM.

I thought I was good at this game, and now I see everyone reaching the middle ages hundreds of years before me. :p

I got there just before AD started.


I didnt have a plan for a certain victory condition when I started, so now I'm trying to figure out the best way to go. I'm currently in 1400 AD, crushing the AIs with Modern armor. I've taken out 3 of them, I figure I can take the entire mainland and reach a Domination Win. But it seems a 1600 or so Domination win isnt so impressive, looking at past GOTMs. I reached Tanks 8 techs ahead of the nearest AI, started crushing htem, and now have a bunch of Modern Armor and they are still 3 techs from tanks.

I am 4 techs into the Modern age now (Ecology, Synthetic Fibers, Rocketry, Computers), researching at about 6-7 turns each. SHould I go for Domination, or for Spaceship, to get the best Jason score?? Any thoughts?

my MA was going fine, until i took a smoke break and my son decided to play a ferw turns for me . . . without my permission, so i have to admit to reloading to a previous save :(

well y'all have helped me to figure out that I need to actually plan what type of win I'm going for early. I was going to go for a diplo win when I realized about 1600 that I'd had too many silly wars and beat up on the AI too much to do that. So I did a very pedestrian win in the 1800's.

Well, I just finished it.

Predator Class,
1470 AD Domination, score 3076. Most of you will probably beat me, I was too slow. Beating them all down with Modern Armor at the end...
edit: Jason score of 6713. Looks a bit better to me, lol!

Since it averages your score for every turn of the game to get your overall game score, mine isnt as high, because I took everything in an acceleratingorgy of destruction at the end. :)



By the way, are we allowed to start again, and try to better our attempt? And can we submit more than one game?

And can we submit more than one game?

No, you can't...

Open

Times Ancient (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2680586&postcount=51)

Still no notes for this game. Though I'm envious of all those fast MA researchers, I never managed to get my research machine going that quickly (until I built the Internet and owned ~60% of the map and population!!) Only having two, eventually 3, native luxuries during the middle ages was probably not helping as more money went into Lux than Science.

This map posed an interesting problem, forcing everyone to fight with footsoldiers for a long, long, time. The lack of horses nearby, and the fact that each horse resource was placed so that no one Civ could get hold of a spare one to trade except through agression (didn't happen, though I tried) made for slow and rather more deliberate warring.

In around 300AD, I declared on Carthage, and took all of their cities.

I entered the Industrial Age in around 800AD, just after starting a war with Japan. My Hwach'as were on the way to the front (a long, long, way to go!) and would start my Golden Age for me before I completed Newton's University in Pyongyang - the Colossus in Carthage being the other necessary Wonder.

I got Steam Power as my free tech, though, which was a good way to start off the new age.

Ancient Age (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2678192&postcount=31)

During the middle ages or late in the Ancient age I settled the wines island and the gems island. After Mongols attacked me I signed a military alliance with Japan and India against them. India backed out of the war early, but Japan and Mongols stayed at war during the entire Medieval age. I of course made peace with the Mongols after the 20 turns were up.

I first attacked Carthage with stacks of medieval infantry, pikemen and trebuches. Carthage had built the Great Library in their capital, and conquering it let me turn off research for a short while. I also aquired furs from Carthage's land. During the war I built Knights Templar in Seoul in 620AD since I would be fighting wars with slow troops anyway. This also triggered my golden age. I have never had a H'wacha golden age when playing with Korea; I always get it by building a wonder after capturing wonder(s) that match my traits. This time I built the Great Lighthouse (commercial) and captured the Great Library (Scientific). In fact, I remember starting a thread a while back while playing Korea, wondering why building Leo's started my golden age. I was enlightened to the fact that when you build a wonder, the game checks all the wonders you own, whether or not you built them doesn't matter. Oddly, this always and only happens to me when I play Korea.

Anyway, with a golden age and the Great Library, I was rolling in gold. This helped me finish my conquest of Carthage (exiling them to 1 city on the north coast) and prepare for a war against Scandanavia. I didn't like the idea of bezerkers prowling off my coast, so I brought the war to them. Stacks of Musketmen, H'wachas and longbowmen conquered the Scandanavian islands, adding spices (and more wines) to my luxuries.

Research was slow during the Medieval age because I was at war a lot and needed money for upgrades and rushing libraries in captured towns. I built two more wonders in Seoul: JS Bach's in 810AD (Celts beat me to Leo's) and Smith's in 1180AD.

I found some unclaimed horses between Mongols and Japan since their war kept them focusing on military. I rushed a settler by boat to the spot.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gskyes_COTM11_horses.JPG

The AI researched Astronomy and Navigation pretty quickly, so I was able to obtain a full map of the continent during the middle ages. Would it be a spoiler to post my minimap in this thread? I think it would be the best way to show my territory at the end of the Medieval age.

Edit: Here is the map of the world at the beginning of the Industrial age.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gskyes_COTM11_1270AD.JPG

@gskyes: No problem with minimaps in this thread. Readers are supposed to know the "whole" world map when they get here.

@Alexfrog: Please make sure you read and understand the game rules (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/1st_visit.php#rules). Those should make it obvious that replaying is illegal. Of course you can replay the game for your own education and enjoyment. But equally obviously, you can't submit it again.

@Alexfrog: Please make sure you read and understand the game rules (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/1st_visit.php#rules). Those should make it obvious that replaying is illegal. Of course you can replay the game for your own education and enjoyment. But equally obviously, you can't submit it again.

I did read them. I wasnt sure wether restarting over from scratch was allowed or not (to try and beat one's score). It was clear that you couldnt restart from part of the way in. I was just asking to make sure.

Restarting from the 4000 BC save is just an extreme example of reloading. There's no ambiguity about:

You may not reload the game from a previous save file or an autosave file to replay and change any events that occur in the game.

[predator]

Just when you think you've done something good a classy player like DaveMcW redefines "good." I entered the Industrial Age in 540 AD after a not so uneventful age. I snatched Copernicus Observatory and Newton's university (yes, I did get it in the Middle Ages) then aiming for Smith's to start golden age in the early IA. Again I'm impressed by DaveMcW's trades. I only managed to trade Feudalsm, Invention and some optionals (well, all optionals eventually.) Economics I researched myself.

I was planning a palace jump to the middle of the continent where I had planted a town on the hills and irrigated through it. My military was down to about 2 MIs and 1 sword when the Indians landed a lone warrior next to Seoul. The warrior razed the town. My intended capital was not up to size yet and I had no nearby workers to join it, but I got a capital just west of it near the flood plains. There was a slightly bigger city on the south coast, but I think it had too few neighbouring towns to be selected as the new capital. I had some towns far north that could not be counted as neighbours to that town. (Neighbouring towns count as 1/3 while city size counts as 1 per citizen in the "capital election process.") That was a break. A palace on the south coast would have stunk. With some agressive expansion westward against Vikings (2 towns flipped to me quickly) and Carthage (soon to be ruffled up) and courthouses in most Eastern towns, I have a good palace location.

You're the first person I've seen who's actually glad when his captitol is razed, Megalou :lol:

It looks like some bad RNG is going to put me out of the running on the 20K race as even though I had 33 Elite Ancient Cavalry wins while slowly killing off Carthage, my first MGL would not appear until 1625 AD (when a large metal unit red-lined a Mongol pike and an AC killed it).

Still for my 20K quest:
Ancient Age:
Palace 3950 BC
Temple 2590 BC
Colossus 1700 BC
Oracle 1075 BC
Statue of Zeus 670 BC
Great Library 110 AD
Middle Ages:
Library 150 AD
Cathedral 230 AD
Colosseum 440 AD
Knights Templar 390 AD
Bach's Cathedral 760 AD (missed Sistine by 2 turns and no one had Music Theory but me)
University 780 AD
Copernicus' Observatory 950 AD
Shakespeare's Theater 1150 AD
I also get beat to Newton's by 3 turns, but that's and IA item.

At the end of the Middle Ages in 1160 AD, Seoul is at 6027 culture with 75cpt and a mid 1800's finish estimated.

Going for Domination Victory

Entered MA in 470 BC, ahead in science.
I decided to start with the Dutch... because I did not want to face their 1/4/1 once they will have feudalism.

I had a stack of 12 warriors. I upgraded them to Swordsmen and again with Feudalism to Medieval Infantry. Core cities focused on additional military units. Quickly took first Dutch cities (and Pyramid). I was going to negotiate peace as my remaining Medieval Infantries were tired when I discovered horse. Next city I captured gave me 2 leaders (one for an Army, the other one for Military Academy) !!! Decided to finish the Dutch (except Cities on Island)

Focused on Chivalry and then on all the techs to Military Tradition (high science % up to Military Tradition).

Mongols demanded tribute. I refused, they declared war. Negotiate alliance with India, Japan and Celt again them. I have never seen a Mongol military unit on my territory.

Once I was done with the Dutch, I started war with Carthage (and alliance with the Celts against Carthage). Upgraded some catapults to H’tchwas (?) to get my Golden Age just before reaching Military Tradition… Got 2 more leaders. Spend some time to clean Ancient Cavalries

Set science to 10 % for a while, then decided to increase it again to reach Rail Road, thinking it will be quicker to reach far civilizations..

Meanwhile, it was the turn of Japan. Got 2 more leaders…

I finished Middle Age around 1000 AD. I had 55% of Population and 45% of territory. I understood that Railroad will be useless. A few more cities and temple everywhere should be enough to reach domination limit.

Reached Domination in 1170 Ad.
Jason score: 9780 pts.

I wished I had keep research at 0% after Military Tradition, I could have finished few turns before.

Three people (myself included) had undefended core cities taken off them in this game. Very peculiar.

I also had Carthage briefly stolen by a 'Zerk sneak attack mid-Industrial (Ragnar paid for his cheek very dearly indeed, but that's for the next spoiler).

The AI in this game were being very brave, it seems!

It looks like some bad RNG is going to put me out of the running on the 20K race as even though I had 33 Elite Ancient Cavalry wins while slowly killing off Carthage
IMHO, this shouldn't affect too much since you never really run out of things to build... heroic epic has a pretty high cpt though.

Three people (myself included) had undefended core cities taken off them in this game. Very peculiar.

The AI in this game were being very brave, it seems!

Actually there is no excuse. My capital sat there, packed with wonders and completely undefended right next door to the vikings who are capable of amphibious assult. At that point in the game I was probably drawing down 500gpt from trades, I should have spent a few gold on some troops.

The loss of that 4cpt (which doubles to 8cpt after 1000 years) in during the Carthage war (circa 500 AD - turn 175), in 1700 AD I would have added 840 to my total, not to mention the additional chances to get GL's. That coupling with the miss on Sistine Chapel (another 6cpt), though I would get Bach's as a replacement, I felt I had a good shot for both.

The real big surprise to me was just how well the AI kept tech pace for a Regent level game. I was running 5-6 turns per tech throughout the second half (used GL for first half) of the MA and the AI seemed to be right there with me until the IA competing for techs & wonders. I was locked into monarchy by a early quirk of fate that cost me the Republic slingshot and did not want to suffer a second anarchy period, so that probably contributed to the the AI keeping.

I wasnt surprised that they could keep pace. Their starting lands were packed with rivers and the land mass was 60% ocean so they had more room to expand. I had great success sucking money out of them and eventually they all went broke. Naturally india had tons of cash, but so too did the vikings. I had 50K on hand at one point and was doing 4 turn research. Like I said, they eventually dropped out. You have to watch it real close those because a turn or two of forgettting to trade can let them back into the race.

You have to watch it real close those because a turn or two of forgettting to trade can let them back into the race.

that's true and what makes the game a littlel boring... since Crpmapstatus doesn't tell us how many gpt AI may have and you have to click through all the AIs. (or is there any easy why to find out how many gpt AI can afford ?)

ionimplant,
I don't know if you think it's easy, but if you offer two monopoly techs they'll throw everything on the table. Often one is enough too.

More useful perhaps: use escape to exit the negotiations, leaving the offer on the table. Next time you come in you don't have to go through the "Greetings" window. In the early stages, I often keep "1 gold (per turn)" on the AI side of the table constantly so I can quickly see if they will trade per turn.

ionimplant,
I don't know if you think it's easy, but if you offer two monopoly techs they'll throw everything on the table. Often one is enough too.

More useful perhaps: use escape to exit the negotiations, leaving the offer on the table. Next time you come in you don't have to go through the "Greetings" window. In the early stages, I often keep "1 gold (per turn)" on the AI side of the table constantly so I can quickly see if they will trade per turn.
thanks!
i think i'm just getting too lazy. actually, easy, for me, should be like the total gold of AI that we can find in mapstatus. each turn, just go to the mapstatus and see what every AI has. we can already do that for the total gold each AI has, but not the gpt each AI has. we still need to click 'n' times, n=number of AI still alive, to find out about that in f6 window, even if we use that 'esc' trick.
maybe i should suggest this to Dianthus (sorry for the spelling).

The problem is that CRpMapstat and CivAssist are intended to speed up access to information that exists in one form or another in the game screens. They work hard to avoid giving you any spoiler information outside of that.

You may be able, by negotiation, to discover that the AI has gpt. However it's not trivial for the utilities to determine that you have a right to this information. You may not have any, or enough, items to offer to get them to divulge their ability to pay gpt. Or they may have spare gpt but not be prepared to pay you gpt because of rep problems.

So I think it's probably a step too far to expect the utilities to give you that information.

You can use trial and error to find how much gpt an AI is willing to pay, even if you only have 1 gold to trade.

Do tell - how?

Listen to your trade advisor.

"They would be insulted by this offer" - They will pay if you offer (a lot) more than 1 gold.
"They would never accept such a deal" - They don't have that much gpt.

Listen to your trade advisor.

"They would be insulted by this offer" - They will pay if you offer (a lot) more than 1 gold.
"They would never accept such a deal" - They don't have that much gpt.
True!!! therefore theoretically we should always be able to find out the gpt an AI has, no matter how bad our reputation is and how poor we are (since we always have the map).
does the advisor say "They would never accept such a deal" only when a deal is impossible? eg. signing MPP, RoP due to past reputation hit, not enough gpt, etc. if that's true, may those utility programs can choose to (or not to) display gpt information based on all those parameters of the game.

"They would never accept such an offer" doesn't even always mean what it says. I've seen situations where that response was wrong. When I offered all I had there was a deal, or it became "doubtful", or "insulting". So "never" is not a cast iron indication they they don't have, or couldn't do, what you're asking for.

You are assuming the "never" answer always means the AI has no gpt. But we have no way to determine the truth or otherwise of that assumption unless we have looked inside every save that gave that response. Even then you don't know that it always will hold good unless we have direct input from the game software writer to that effect. Even then he might have made an error.

A utility writer would have to emulate all the internal logic of the AI to determine whether the player should be told what gpt the AI could pay but won't, and I don't believe that's feasible. But I could be wrong :rolleyes:

Three people (myself included) had undefended core cities taken off them in this game. Very peculiar.

I also had Carthage briefly stolen by a 'Zerk sneak attack mid-Industrial (Ragnar paid for his cheek very dearly indeed, but that's for the next spoiler).

The AI in this game were being very brave, it seems!

I didnt, though I had some inner core cities undefended. I had a MPP with the Vikings throug hthe whole mid and late game. They were the one I didnt attack, and their ships killed a number of dutch ships that might have landed troops on me. ;)

At the very end I took defensive units out of my core cities and disbanded them in conquer cities for shields to rush libraries, so I would reach domination as soon as possible.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif Predator.
Barbs fixed.

My pre-game thoughts:
Pangaea regent. Last time I played Pangaea regent was COTM5. The game was finished in 490 before MA. Bradleyfeanor finished that game in 50BC. However, I was expecting some handicaps towards human player, like placing us on a tiny mini island or something even worse.

My early in-game thoughts:
Surprisingly start looks very nice, enough space to expand, protected by relatively narrow choking point. There is even a fresh water lake nearby. Even two luxes close by, this is regent, we do not need many. Looks like we are going to have another COTM5.

My middle in-game thoughts:
Three words: what a nightmare. And a smillie: :mad:

My late in-game thoughts:
This is fun, though I started to worry about my RL health, like we do not have enough stressful situations elsewhere.

My after-game thoughts:
Why this game was so hard? It reminded me a more challenging version of COTM8. But COTM8 was on demi-god and we did not have any earlier strategic resources. We had to fight for both, iron and horses. Here, at least, iron was for free.
Maybe I shouldn’t take predator? I did not put “predator for ever” in my signature like Dynamic, so I shouldn’t be ashamed for playing open.
I am interested to see the distribution of predators vs open when results will be available. I bet that those who went for military victories did better with open and those who went for research oriented type of victories did better with predator.

__________________________________________________ ________

How I think this game should be played
ROP to send units searching for horses. Then ROP abuse to get those horses. Most reasonable target – Dutch, before they get their UU.

How I played this game
first spoiler (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2677912&postcount=22)
My goal “fastest domination” sounds very pathetic now.

I think my biggest earlier mistake was not building the Statue of Zeus. I figured it out much later. Even a few fast units would be very helpful. Somehow I thought that we will find horses soon.

I made peace with Dutch in 630BC.
In 310BC Dutch and Mongolia entered MA. I was very concerned about Dutch getting Feudalism soon, I wanted to invade them before they build their UU.

In 290BC I decided to make a palace jump. I did not care what exact town will become a new palace. I just wanted it to be somewhere in the middle of our peninsula. My understanding of a mechanism of the palace jump is that it should go to the middle anyway, so I did not do any preparations and simply abounded Seul. Capital moved to Taejon. No complains. Seul was rebuilt in a moment at the same place. The only thing that I lost was a granary in Seul.

In 230BC I started war on Carthage to get access for incense.

In 70BC Dutch and Mongols got Feudalism :sad:

In 10BC I made peace with Carthage. It was very hard to fight against Carthage UU with archers, so I needed to research towards invention first.

10AD Invention and stop research.

AIs were developing and researching faster than I expected for regent, so I decided to mess around a bit. In 30AD I declared on Celts (they looked as strongest and also had ToA, a wonder I wanted the most) I also made alliances with their neighbors, Dutch and Japan.

After upgrading all archers to longbowmen I declared on Carthage again in 210AD. Scandinavia agreed to join me in this war.

In 330AD Mongols demanded invention, I thought it is too much and declined, they declared. I managed to get alliances with Scandinavia, Japan and India.

After I captured all Carthage cities that were known by me, I made peace with Carthage in 350AD. No point to fight with someone if you do not know where they are.

Alps

At this point I reached mountains that were separating me from Celts and Japan:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_mountains.JPG

There the hell begun.
I tried to go through them to attack Celts, but it was too hard. Longbowmen were dying very easily and were not able to fight against armies of Celtic medival infantry. I am not Hannibal neither Suvorov.
But according to Surikov’s “Russian Troops under Suvorov Crossing the Alps”, Suvorov had a horse:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCOTM11_surikov.jpg

So I tried to go around, I even built walls in New Sokoch’o (never built walls before).
It did not help, I lost this city anyway. Fighting against two civs at this spot with Keshicks flying over those mountains was too much. Therefore, in 460AD I made peace with Moglose who joined us in the war against Celts.
I started to move my longbowmen into Celtic territory via sea, it was safer and faster.

670AD Peace with Celts to rest from war weariness and to prepare for a next round. ROP with Vikings (planning abuse) and Dutch (just to help finances)

710AD Mongols demanded 39 gold and I gave them. Keshicks really scare me.

730AD Traded gunpowder from Indians

750AD ROP with Celts (for eventual abuse)

820AD War on Japan (ROP abuse)

870AD Last Japanese city was destroyed by a single Celtic longbowman.

Loosing and razing own cities as a way to go to Domination :twitch:

In 910AD the situation become disastrous. Out of the blue Celts ROP abused us! :pissed: They took 5 cities and killed lots of my units. Obviously it resulted in huge war weariness. Also I immediately understood that fast units are even more necessary during defense than during attack.
I bought extremely expansive alliances from Dutch and Mongolia and declared war on Vikings as a part of the deal. It cost me more than 1000gs in cash and about 115gpt. I also kept raizing and loosing my cities.
In the interval 910AD-930AD I razed 10 my own towns. This is a part of the map showing ruins:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCotM11_ruins.JPG

In 940AD I finally got access to horses which were north from Mongolia. Switched longbowmen production to horsemen and got chivalry in 950AD as a part of peace deal with Vikings. The same year I started war on Indians, I had many longbowmen on their territory.

In 990AD Celts started to use cavalry, our knights were still too far. The problem withy Cavalry is that it is impossible to predict where they will attack, they jump from fog of war and cannot even raze cities before they attack.

So I started loosing my towns again. WW was so high, that I had to use entertainers in some of my core cities. Other parts of my shrinking empire got a little bit reddish because of starvation.

It also becomes clear that I will not win this game without cavalry.

1030AD Metalurgy.

1050 AD war on Scandinavia, needed to take flipped Bergen back.

1090 First GL and Military tradition as a part of peace deal with Vikings.

By this time Korea adapted to the situation and started wining a war with Celts.

1150 Captured Entremont with ToA.

Struggling to the very last turn

To give you a flavor of this struggle, here are unedited notes of last 85 years in which I got second, third, fourth GLs and GA:

1200 ToA gave an affect. But it is still far from domination, 53% territory. Even entire Celts would not help. Probably I will need to fight with other civs too. Dutch?

1220 India was destroyed.

1250 It does make sense to start a war on Dutch, their privateers are sinking my galleys with cavalry

1270 Mongolia demanded gems. We gave. What a shame, what a shame, what a shame, we are cowards :pissed:. Second GL

1275 Celts were finished and it gave us 64% territory. We declare on Dutch. Dutch had rifleman at this point. Third GL. Fourth GL.

1280 We are ten tiles from Domination. We entered Golden Age. At the end of the turn we are two tiles from Domination.

1285 we are 15 tiles from Domination, Dutch took two cities. We are 18 tiles over domination limit at the end of this turn.

1290 Finally

This is the progress of my game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SolCOTM11_progress.JPG


On a final note I want to say that although I am very unhappy with my results it was probably the most entertaining game I ever played (thank you, Carasu)

i've got to retrain myself for Cotm. i keep playing by the RBC rules and don't abuse the AI. I took 2 cities from Carthage before 1500BC and still f'd the game up. thanks solen... for the insight.

i've got to retrain myself for Cotm. i keep playing by the RBC rules and don't abuse the AI. I took 2 cities from Carthage before 1500BC and still f'd the game up. thanks solen... for the insight.

I think if AI can ROP abuse us (in this game it was my second time, I was abused before when we were playing China), then why we cannot obuse AI?

Easy regent game, they say. Um hum sure. I won by domination in 1230. Ugh. Heres the highlights:

At the MA, I began to pump out swords and MDI and trebs in order to get some horses for my warriors to ride. I began to be thankful here that I had lost the Colossus and cascaded to the Statue of Zeus. Unlike Solenoozerec and others, I left the Celts and Dutch alone and went for Vikings first. I didnt even know the Celts had horses until post Chivalry; they were pretty unassailable anyhow. War went pretty quick, captured most of their island and a spice island city by 300 AD. No problems there, decided to give them a rest and go get those horses ive been meaning to get via galleys through the port of Kazan. Mongols here we come.

310- Go brain dead. Declare on Carthage, who bore me no ill will and had crap for terrain. Totally forgot about going to get horses and all that. SOD really has no problems besides being unholy slow. Unfortunately unit costs are an eyepopping 70 odd gpt at predator settings. Forgetting horses priority was mistake #1. #2 was not building ToA myself since the Celts built it up North and denied me its wonders.

670 sees us finally grabbing the port of kazan in Mongolia and we bog down a bit due to constant whacks by those silly Keshiks, but soon capture Karakorum once we finally get there. Disband some trebs and rush a settler to found on the horses. Rush a harbor in Kazan. We are in Golden Age having built Leonardos in Seoul, coupled with the Great Library and Colossus capture. Mil Trad in 25 turns, which we slow down to build some horsies and rack up lotso gold.

880- Having built up over 40 horses, we upgraded and really began wrecking people. Slaughtered many Samurai but lost some cavs on counterattacks. Began the long march west through hills and mountains. Note to Mongols: thanks for never hooking up your SECOND source of horses and generally not building roads anywhere. Really, it was appreciated.

1100- Pretty much owned everything west of the Celtic alps + 3 dutch cities on the mainland and STILL not at domination. So THATS what all those islands are for, raising the dom limit huh. Begin island hopping to the west from former indian lands with a salty crew of 2 cavs and a 2 cav army to fit on my caravels. Having not got a leader all game I had 3 in the closing portion, 2 of which were used to rush libraries. How useful. Cash rushed more libraries and settlers.

1230- Finally domination mercifully comes.

Thoughts: Should have bypassed Carthage and maybe even Vikings for horses as first priority. Would have made hundreds of years difference in the end date. Should have attacked the Dutch sooner, I figured I wouldnt need their land for domination but oh how I was wrong. A long, hard slog but a good game and map! If Id have known that it would take this long I would've researched to tanks and gone conquest on everyone. Im wondering what the quickest conqest does turn out to be, if as in my game the celts get to cavs they are tough.

Wow, guys...
Reading your struggles with conquest/domination type games makes me really happy that I (widely known for compulsive warmongering ;) ) decided to go for a peaceful victory type for this Regent level game... :)

@Karasu: You're really evil, you know that? No horses nearby is, IMHO, the worst (most difficult) lack of resouces a game can show! Excellent way to make a lower level game interesting! :)

[c3c] 1.22f - Open Class

AA Link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2677732&postcount=20)

Middle Ages 270BC - 1170AD

310 AD Now at war with Carthaginians
510 AD Carthaginians Eliminated
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_Carthage.JPG

580 AD Korea created Sun Tzu's Art of War in Namp'o
590 AD Now at war with Vikings
840 AD Vikings Eliminated
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_Vikings.JPG

920 AD Korea created Knights Templar in Wonsan
960 AD Now at war with Japanese
960 AD Korea gained great leader Yi Song-gye
1030 AD Korea started golden age
1190 AD Korea created Smith's Trading Company in Wonsan
1220 AD Japanese Eliminated
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/denniz_c11_Japan.JPG

Open

My goal in this game was to see what a stack of Hwacha do.

So i built lots of catapults and trebuchets for upgrades, and then workers to make the roads for them. And bunches of mideaval infantry. With the workers and artillery units being so easy to build, I think I ended up over-building. I had far too many, and was constantly strapped for cash, which meant I couldn't research fast to metalurgy. (in the AA post, I mentioned having 2 workers per city... apparently too many, but I felt like I needed it with the crap terrain.) So I knew I'd want to do big upgrades and not have the cash for them, so when I lost out on Statue of Zeus I switched to Leonardo's. Eventually got that and made it easy to upgrade.

I noticed a stack of 20 Hwacha and a Army of 3 MI was totally invincible. The AI won't attack an army (unless it's in a city, and I lost one that way), and those Hwacha really are pretty unstoppable, just so darn slow, which is bad for war weariness. Took me forever to clean out the Celts and Dutch and get the horses there. I ended up in a really bad fight between the Mongols and the Celts at the same choke point the above poster mentions... Those Keshiks were beastly, but didn't defend that well. Keeping my troops out of range and counter attacking with Hwacha worked well defensively, but I couldn't mount much of an offense against the mongols, so eventally I bought a peace.

I ended up getting domination with cavalry (and a tiny bit of help from some railroads, too) around 1300 ad, for about 8500 jason-points, which seems to be my average.

ISO: Help on how to win before 1000 ad. ;)

solenoozerec, great write-up and a fatastic picture (except for the horse)!
i ended up not building a signal knight or cavelry in my game... i'll talk about my unsuccessful attempt to get horse in the final spoiler. now that the GOTM42 is up, when will the final spoiler come up? i just hope it'll do before i start gotm42 tonight since i'll quickly forget everything about cotm11 then.

With defensive troops now arriving in his border cities and Ancient Cavalry on station in potential hot spots, Wang Kon felt more secure and when he rebuffed a Dutch demand for the monopoly he held on currency, the declaration of War was almost welcome. The Dutch city of Middleburg that had been settled on ancestral Korea lands was quickly acquired and by trading Monarchy, a somewhat common tech to the Celts he was able to keep the Dutch busy defending their common border with the Celts while Korean galleys delivered troops to Dutch islands and captured three Dutch cities and added wines to the luxuries of Korea.

With the completion of Knights Templar in Seoul in 390 AD, Korea would now be able to go on the offensive against Carthage, a peaceful neighbor who just happened to be in the wrong place. When the alliance with the Celts had ended, Wang was able to sign peace with the Dutch in return for one of their final two island holdings. It was now time for Korea to expand and Carthage was in the way. With war honorably declared the Korean troops began marching on Carthage’s cities. Before the first battle could be fought, the Mongol’s demand for gold was rebuffed and war was declared. Wang Kon quickly contacted the Celts who were busy conquering the Dutch and arranged to ally with them against the Mongols for 275 gold pieces. One by one the proud garrisons of Carthage were conquered until soon the city of Carthage was in sight. Hannibal’s offer of gold and the city of Hippo were sufficient to delay the inevitable.

Meanwhile back in Seoul a university, cathedral and colosseum had been rushed and a last second switch was required when the Mongols completed the Sistine Chapel in a wonder cascade, leaving Seoul with JS Bach’s Cathedral. That was followed in 950 AD by the completion of Copernicus’ Observatory. The war between the Mongols and Celts had been raging for over 200 years when Korean troops finally reached a Mongol city and with the capture of Hovd, Temujin was willing to send nearly 200 gold pieces and his world map for peace. Finally in 1000 AD, the entire world was at peace.

The time of peace was brief as in 1010 AD, with the expiration of peace with Carthage; the Korean troops began their final offensive against the Carthaginian Mercenaries and in 1130 AD with the fall of the tundra city of Cirta, Carthage were gone. Pyongsong’s quest to build a new palace was rerouted the same year to complete Smith’s Trading Post and in 1160 AD Seoul completed Shakespeare’s Theater and Korea discovered Magnetism and entered the Industrial Age. [Editor’s note: Seoul Culture 6026 and 75 cpt]

So I think it's probably a step too far to expect the utilities to give you that information.One other complicating factor that I have noticed in my trials is that the AI appears to be allowed to use deficit spending... Running huge negative GPT even with zero in the bank.

Needs more analysis, but I think that with the reputation system difficult to determine (in-save), as well as the -ve GPT (and I am not 100% sure about the trigger that allows GPT deals), I think that this would be very, very difficult anyway.

One other complicating factor that I have noticed in my trials is that the AI appears to be allowed to use deficit spending... Running huge negative GPT even with zero in the bank.

how can you know this? how AI spend their money has always been a big mystery to me... very often getting all the gpt from them (like 200gpt) will cripple their research completely but sometimes it doesn't.... and how all of a sudden they have a lot of gold from nowhere and then it'll be gone for no apparent reasons (lux trading, tech, etc.) and someone mentioned that AI doesn't use the slide bar and tackle the happiness problem by using entertainers. is this true?

One other complicating factor that I have noticed in my trials is that the AI appears to be allowed to use deficit spending... Running huge negative GPT even with zero in the bank.

Needs more analysis, but I think that with the reputation system difficult to determine (in-save), as well as the -ve GPT (and I am not 100% sure about the trigger that allows GPT deals), I think that this would be very, very difficult anyway.

I think they do pay the prescribed penalty for doing so (loss of one unit and one building per turn, with the cheapest and the farthest-away (in the case of units) going first). This may be partly why the penalty is so relatively light (particularly at later stages of the game) -- in order to keep the AI from completely collapsing when it makes an inevitable bad deal.

Back in the early middle ages of my game, the Dutch sailed an archer in a galley all the way around my east coast, then along the south coast to the designated* landing site three tiles west of the starting-area lake. They dropped the archer off, and I made a mental note of it for the next turn. Next turn, I looked for it and it was gone.

*I'm playing Always War, which has been ... interesting. *bops Karasu upside the head for making it such hard going* The AIs have only ever landed in that one spot, even after the inland towns I assumed they were going for at first acquired better defense. More on my game later when I have some time, although I haven't kept detailed notes.

Renata

the AI appears to be allowed to use deficit spending... Running huge negative GPT even with zero in the bank. I remember seeing some analysis a while back that indicated that the AI sets its science slider to the highest percentage it can afford at the turn when it starts a new research project, and doesn't change it until the project finishes. Other gpt deals can end, specialists can be hired, and major changes can occur in territory or cities, but no slider adjustments are made until the next project starts.

I can't recall where it was, so its provenance is somewhat suspect, but it somehow didn't surprise me when I read it. If it's true, it's not surprising that the AI civs finish up in deficit quite often.

how can you know this? how AI spend their money has always been a big mystery to me... very often getting all the gpt from them (like 200gpt) will cripple their research completely but sometimes it doesn't.... and how all of a sudden they have a lot of gold from nowhere and then it'll be gone for no apparent reasons (lux trading, tech, etc.) and someone mentioned that AI doesn't use the slide bar and tackle the happiness problem by using entertainers. is this true?
I have ways and means of investigating... :mischief:

Seriously, I haven't looked in a lot of detail, but have done some investigation in to how the AI handles its economy. It might actually make a good war academy article at some point. :hmm:


I remember seeing some analysis a while back that indicated that the AI sets its science slider to the highest percentage it can afford at the turn when it starts a new research project, and doesn't change it until the project finishes. Other gpt deals can end, specialists can be hired, and major changes can occur in territory or cities, but no slider adjustments are made until the next project starts.

I can't recall where it was, so its provenance is somewhat suspect, but it somehow didn't surprise me when I read it. If it's true, it's not surprising that the AI civs finish up in deficit quite often.
That sounds like useful info, Alan. I might have a more in-depth look at this. :)

OPEN, going for Domination

Since we were not allowed to post minimaps in spoiler 1. these are my maps during the AA:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_3.JPG

The land I discovered so far had no horses at all. Nevertheless I researched all the way towards MT, since I had hope that there are horses somewhere.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_4.JPG

My first try was the viking island, but no horses there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_6.JPG

Next I tried The Netherlands, but no horses there either.

At this time I was amost convinced that there will be no horses at all. Can Karasu be really that evil? Since it's a regent game why not?
So I rushed to fight the Indians, because if there are no horses, the only civ which can build a fast MA unit are the Indians with their war elephants and I did not want to have to fight them with my MI.

Finally, when I started my war against the celts, I found this:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_7.JPG

At that stage I was not happy, I already set my mind to dominate the world with MI's, but now I switched my production to cavalry and finished the game 23 turns later.

That's the progress report:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Ronald_cotm11_5.JPG

It was a great map, but I would have really appreciated having no horses at all, this would have been even more fun for me.
Anyway, Karasu, thank's for this cotm.

Arrrr, after my AA, in which I'd hiked my settler 6 squares north in hope of a productive empire, I felt like I'd lost a bet. I'm a Palace-jump believer now. Anyway, enter the MA in 90BC, at war with Carthage, one city taken so far.
70AD -Meet Mongols. Yes, I didn't have boats for a long time.
110AD- Meet India
Now to make a long story short. Captured Carthage in 260. Researching toward Military tradition, but quite quite slow, intending to mostly pointy stick-it. Peace with Carthage in 460 AD. Scandanavia was targeted next for war, starting in 480. At first culture flips caused more casualties that battle (I was unlucky and not careful enough), but soon the foot-soldier death toll really added up. In 500 the Knights Templar was completed in Seoul. (Along with the SoZ, Seoul produced some units). Still, it took until 740 to capture Trondheim and the Great Wall (I'd have fought the Dutch, but they already had those swiss guys...). Around this time old Carthaginian cities flipped to me, 2 out of his remaining 3, which was nice for a change. Made peace with Vikings in 790 for some tech, and destroyed them soon after.
Wasn't sure which path to take from here, as everyone was wayyy ahead in tech and getting stronger. Horses were being traded out of Mongolia, but my rep was long shot and I couldn't get 'em that way. So I did some spectacular galley chaining to India, drawing in Mongolia with an MPP. Ghandi gets no more horses for the rest of the game. Japan declared on us, and they get divided up between us and Mongols.
In 910 I claimed the Celt horses without starting any wars, although Celts had hooked them up. Nice. But riflemen were everywhere, and things were looking tougher. 1030, after taking just a few Indian towns, I make peace for Military Tradition. But not before drawing Celts into the war. My Golden Age started this year as well. 1040 my horse city flipped, but I already had two dozen in queues, so it was OK.
I had a rather peaceful GA, but no one else did. I made an MPP with the Dutch and declared on Celts. AI Rifles vs. Rifles is fun to watch- I win every time! Mongols stayed at war with India, grinding up their cavalry. The Celts had marched something like 40 units into Mongolia to get to the Indians and had very little left at home. When I declared on Celts, Mongolia simply disposed of that whole army. Nice! The Dutch tore them up from the other front. I controlled the old Japanese land between Celts and Mongols, and made a funnel of units and towns for the Mongol cavalry to run through on their way to Celt land, opening and closing the end to just keep them stranded in my land. When the moment came, I declared on Mongolia. 12 cavalry destroyed in Japanese lands-plus a great leader- and 7 more destroyed in old Indian territory. I had 37 units outside Karakorum, a defended settler on the horses by his capitol, and unhooked his other horses.
So, I captured Karakorum, which contained the Great Library, the Oracle, Copernicus', and Smith's. How long till that flips? It's an IA matter. Nobody but me had horses, and the constant war had driven Mongolia into Anarchy- I saw only 3 more cavalry out of him until they became Fascist. In 1240, the Great Library provided Education, Printing Press, Banking, Astronomy, Democracy, Economics, Navigation, Physics, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, Nationalism, Communism, Industrialization, Corporation, and Fascism. So I'm in the IA, it's a good story, but not so great a result I suppose :p

It was a great map, but I would have really appreciated having no horses at all, this would have been even more fun for me.
Anyway, Karasu, thank's for this cotm.

:lol: Don't say that twice... :evil:

Actually, now that I see your terrific finish date, I think that you are probably right... Next time no horses, no iron, and your archers will have to fight blindfolded! :worship:

:lol: Don't say that twice... :evil:

Actually, now that I see your terrific finish date, I think that you are probably right... Next time no horses, no iron, and your archers will have to fight blindfolded! :worship:

Archers are not good enough, but longbowmen in combination with a 3 defending unit should be able to do the trick :D

DBear's CotM11O Medieval Age highlights:

Towns founded:
150BC: Pyongsong
10AD: Taejon
50: Paegam
130: Manpo
150: Kaesong
360: Chonju (flips to Dutch in 690)
400: Sariwon
580: Suwon
1010: Taegu

Technologies:
250BC: Mono (bonus), Lit (trade)
130AD: Feud (trade)
250: Engineer (trade)
460: Invention (war--woulda got next turn anyway), Theo + Chiv (trade)
610: Guns (learn), Ed (trade)
750: Chem (learn), bank + astro (trade)
870: Nav (learn), Music + Nav + PP (trade)
950: Econ (trade)
980: Physics (war)

Scores:

Wars:
370BC-210BC: Vikings for same reason. Have to show that we can't be pushed around! Hareid autorazed, Vikings pay us 40 for peace.
170BC-460AD: Celts try to extort mono from us and declare war. Why can't they just trade feud for it? Celts are far away, I don't see how they can get to us easily. Celts come thru Carthage, I bribe Carthage in. Celts take Utica, I take it from them.
150BC-300AD: Mongols try extorting too. Everyone thinks they can push us around, they better think again. We sunk one of theirs, they sunk one of ours and started lurking around. The Celts are the bigger problem, so I gave the Mongols Feud to go away.
480AD-580: Dutch want all our gold when we're running a deficit. I refuse, they declare. Turns out to be completely phony.
740-980: Celts send about 8 mace into my territory. They want to go another round. My crusaders will greet them. For good measure, I'll bring in Carthage again.

contacts:
310AD: embassy to Carthage. Turned down science to build up money to build it to bribe Carthage to war against Celts.
580: Embassy to Dutch. After the phony war, decided to build embassy to ease tensions.
750: Embassy to Vikings. They are 5 turns from Leonardo.
950: Embassy to Mongols. They had their own war going vs. the Celts and were happy to deal w/me.

Wonders:
470: Seoul builds Templars. Just acquired Chiv in trade and decided to go for the sure wonder.
540: FP in Hyangsan.


Miscellany

250BC: Revolt--7 turn anarchy.
150AD: I see no river, but se and 2se of Kaesong are labeled flood plain instead of desert.
570: Sabratha flips to us.

The Celts were at war virtually the entire Middle Ages--if not with me, then either Mongols or Japan.

Open, barbs fixed
20K

I entered the MA in 290 BC. Pyongyang nets 18 shields, on its way to a sustainable 17 shields - at 18 shields they are starving - and much later back to 18 again when I get a mountain mined and irrigate some grassland. I'm working on hanging gardens, which I finish in 130 BC. I can't rush a colosseum in 1 turn, but I can get it in 2. Then I have to wait for something to build, as there are no available wonders and no culture until I learn monotheism. In 50 AD I build a cathedral. Sistine Chapel comes along in 490, then I rush a university in 500 and finish copernicus' observatory in 720. I entered the industrial ages in 850 AD and finished a bunch more middle age wonders after that.

Culture-wise, I was satisfied with my performance. I had cash available to rush my improvements speedily and I picked up the wonders I wanted. I stewed a bit over whether to build the cathedral first or continue with a Sistine Chapel prebuild, but I decided culture in the bag was worth some shields I couldn't buy.

I have three wars during the MA. In 370 the Celts declare on me and raze a city. I trade engineering for some alliances and ignore them. After the alliances expire I make peace, trading 40 g for a worker. In 550 the Dutch declare. I try to use this as an opportunity to take their one city on my side of the water, but I kill lots of units (theirs and mine) without success. I make peace for a while and then just before entering the IA they attack again, leading to an almost equally uneventful 20 turn war. The rest of the game was somewhat more eventful, but that'll have to wait.

Predator, barbs fixed (for what it matters with sedentary barbs)

Going for a Conquest Victory

The Ancient Age, 4000bc—330bc
I decided to wait and post this AA spoiler in the second thread because of the inability to discuss horses or talk about unique features of the map in the first thread. Both were big factors in my strategy and decisions (as I imagine they were for most people), and it would have been a poor summary if I did not mention horses, coastal routes, or the Viking’s “nominally pagaea” island. :)

The summary is as I wrote it at the end of the Ancient Age for the most part (I had already written it when I read the spoiler rules about horses and such, and I didn't feel like rewriting it), but I went back at the end of my game to add a few comments and dates.

Initial Thoughts and Plans
Given this was a Regent level game and nearly all the AIs had early middle age UUs (F10), I thought it would be great to do most/all of my conquering in the Ancient Age with horsemen. So, along with expansion, acquiring horses was an early priority. :rolleyes:

I expected to have a large military, and perhaps a large worker force too. That, along with the Predator handicap of decreased unit support, made Republic seem a poor choice of governments. Therefore I hoped to use the Philosophy free tech to get Monarchy.

I didn’t expect to ever see the Hwacha in the game, so I planned to trigger a GA with wonders. Ideally, I wanted to capture one wonder and then build one to kick it off.

First Moves
Moving SE looked like a fine place to found the capitol, but a second city seemed even better for that location. It could generate 10spt even with a loss of 1 shield to corruption. It could also be a second-city 4-turn warrior/settler factory if fresh water could be located. I decided to move the settler north to get a more central palace location and hopefully find some fresh water—which he did, of course. I settled north of the game and the worker immediately began clearing and irrigating it. He then irrigated his way to the cow for what would be my second city. The second city would be founded SE of the start to allow irrigation to be brought quickly to the cow.

I worked out a couple of start options at this point, and decided that immediately building a settler to go claim the cow (and share the soon-to-be-irrigated game) was the best option. After that I built worker, curragh, granary. My second city built a granary right off the bat, then settler, a couple of warriors for happiness, and a few additional workers to develop the city into a 4-turn warrior/settler factory.

I decided to enter Micro-Management Hades by irrigating both the wheat and the cow. This meant I had to constantly switch the game back and forth between my first two cities, but there is no denying that it was worth it for the extra food.

Exploration
I focused heavily on growth at the beginning and was slow to build curraghs or exploring warriors. My first curragh was out in 2590bc and my second in 2110bc. They met the AIs on the following dates:

Contacts
2900bc Carthage (they found me)
2430bc Vikings
1910bc Indians
1790bc Netherlands
1375bc Mongols (who own strange, hairy beasts, but ride them not!)
1350bc Celts
1075bc Japan

My curraghs also revealed the general topography of the “nominal” pangaea. There were good coastal routes to most locations on the map, so I planned to build lots of galleys to transport my troops around.

Lack of horses was a really big problem, and I knew it was going to make the game pace plod along. There was still a lot of territory to explore, but I didn’t expect to find any. It was quite conspicuous that none of the civs had them except the Mongols: the furthest civilization from us on the map.

I established an embassy with the Dutch in 1375bc and discovered that, taking into account city growth, they would build the pyramids in about 25 turns (750bc). I also established embassies in India and Carthage in 1275 but they were quite far away from building any wonders. In 1050bc I had a bit of spare cash, so I decided to build an embassy with the Vikings: I was now worried about them getting the pyramids, because I was sure they were on an odd “nominally pangaea island.” If they got the pyramids that would basically ruin the value of the wonder for me. The investigation did not bring happy results: they would finish the pyramids before the Dutch (775bc). This led me to pick up the pace of building my military. I had wanted to go for the Mongol horses as my first military target, but I didn’t want the Vikings to get the pyramids so they moved to the top of my hit list.

Empire Expansion
As mentioned earlier, my second city was to be a 4-turn warrior/settler factory. It went online around 2070bc, although it produced a settler, worker and a couple of warriors in the meantime (it also took a break around 1850bc to build a barracks). Seoul did not complete its granary until 1950bc (built a few curraghs and workers first). My next few cities also got granaries. There was a lot of land to colonize and develop, so I knew I would need lots of settlers and workers.

Carthage was able to slip one settler into my land before I cut them off at the ivory. I had one settler in the northern area that could beat Carthage to any location. Unfortunately, there were two I wanted: the incense and the iron. I decided to take the incense because the iron would take a bit longer to get hooked up anyway. Therefore Carthage claimed the iron.

Early on my cities concentrated entirely on building settlers and workers, but around 1200bc they began assembling a small military due to the impending conflict with the Vikings. Also, Seoul began constructing the SoZ around this time (ToA as prebuild).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BF_COTM11_EndQSC.jpg

1000bc Stats
32 citizens
12 towns
1 city
1 settler
11 workers
1 slave
6 warriors (2 vets)
5 archers (all vets)
1 catapult
3 galleys
3 curraghs
3 barracks
4 granaries
All techs except Cur, Const, Republic, Lit
72g in treasury, making 16gpt, research is off, Lux rate at 40%.
In 5th place with 169. Dutch are #1 with 241.

A few of the galleys and archers were short rushed with cash.

Research and Government
My initial research path was pottery, writing, both at max. I hoped to trade for CB and Myst, then research Poly and Phil, getting Monarchy for my free tech. I had hoped that this game would be an AAC (Ancient Age Challenge), but the lack of horses and the insane research rate of the AIs put an end to that pipe dream. To my great surprise and dismay, the “ignorant” regent AIs learned writing before me—in 2030bc! :eek: I still had about 5 turns to go, so I traded for it. I would love to know how they researched so quickly. (I later learned that most of them had great starting locations on long, commerce-rich rivers, but I suspect they had oodles of goody huts as well.)

The AIs already had a ton of tech when I traded for writing, so I despaired of making any sort of slingshot to a government tech. I decided to start immediately on philosophy at max. In 1575bc, when I was a few turns away from discovery, I changed my mind and turned research way down.

There was little to be gained by going ahead and getting philosophy: it would give me a free tech, but the governments were not available. Researching a government would take me 40 turns, because I knew I would need money for upgrading troops. In the worst case, the AI would get Phil before me, but then I would just trade for it (and the freebie) by using the cash I had on hand to broker techs amongst the AIs (many of them did not know each other).

There was plenty to be gained by delaying discovery of Philosophy, however. It was quite likely that one of the AIs would research CoL or Poly before they researched Phil., and that would enable me to get my free government tech. The plan worked, but it took a bit longer than I expected for the AIs to research one of the techs. The Dutch learned CoL in 1350bc. I was excited, but it turned out to be irrelevant, as my curragh met the Celts on this same turn, and they had Polytheism. I turned up research, and on the in-between-turn, I discovered Philosophy, traded it to the Celts for Polytheism, and got Monarchy for my free tech. I immediately revolted and drew a 2-turn anarchy (I only had 5 cities at that point, but 4 more would be founded in the next 2 turns). I also traded around techs (stingily) to all the other civs, learning everything except Const, Cur, Lit and Republic. I didn’t give anyone Monarchy, however, because I wanted them to stay dumb for as long as possible.

I turned off research at this point for many, many years. I decided to raise money for war while the AIs finished the Ancient Age for me. They got Construction in 900bc and Republic in 670bc, but it took them forever and a day to get Currency, not learning it until 330bc. We traded at that date and entered the Middle Ages, getting Feudalism for our free tech.

Warfare and Wonders
I had one “hot” war and several “cold” wars in the Ancient Age. The Celtic Cold Wars lasted from 1325bc to 975bc and from 530bc to 90ad (ended after the Ancient Age). This slowed down their research and development as well as that of the Dutch and Carthage, whom I put at war with them. The Mongolian Cold Wars lasted from 1275bc to 975bc and from 570bc to 250bc, and slowed the pace of both them and India.

India made peace with Mongolia briefly in 1050bc and I decided not to pay them to re-declare, because I needed a bit of cash to rush troops. They started ToA on the following turn. That was a screw up on my part, although I didn’t realize it at the time. I should have paid whatever was necessary to keep them at war. If I had, I don’t think they would have started that wonder. It would have been much better for me if any of the other civs had gotten the ToA, because India was the furthest out of my way.

In 975bc the Dutch signed peace with the Celts, and, like the Indians, both these AIs started the ToA—but two turns too late for my purposes. I decided to give the Mongols and Celts peace on this turn as well, because they would both surrender cities. I get one from the Mongols and two from the Celts.

The free cities were not to be mine for long, as I had pretty much expected (I only took them to pad my score for a few turns and hopefully incite a war declaration that would bring me war happiness). The Mongols destroyed the Japanese in 925bc, and in 570bc they decided to attack me when I refused to give them literature. I gave their free city to the Indians a turn before they could take it from me to avoid any war weariness. I redeclared on the Celts myself in 530bc in order to sign the Dutch back into the conflict. As in the Mongolian Cold War, I gifted each of the free Celtic cities to the Dutch when Celtic troops arrived.

The Scandinavian War, 800bc—510bc, 410bc—270bc (3 turns after entering the MAs)
As I mentioned earlier, I began planning this war in 1050bc because I did not want the pyramids constructed on an island. It would delay my plans to acquire the Mongol horses, but at the time I felt it was worth it. I signed an RoP with the Vikings in 1025bc in order to ensure I could reach their capitol before the wonder would complete in 775bc. The Vikings didn’t have contact with anyone, and I hoped to keep it that way so no one would ever know of my treachery. Around 900bc I spotted a Viking galley that disappeared into the city of Bergen. I dedicated one of mine to blocking that cities water access so the galley couldn’t get out. A couple of others took up locations north and west of the Viking island, just in case they decided to make a mad dash for foreign contacts before I killed them.

I spent the next 8 turns short-rushing a few archers, catapults and galleys and moving my troops into position to take the capitol. In 800bc I gifted the Vikings Monarchy to cause them to enter anarchy and prevent pop-rushing, and then I attacked their capitol with 5 archers, 3 warriors and 3 cats, and the city of Bergen with 4 archers. I lost three of my archers in the attacks, but captured their capitol (destroying their Pyramid build) and autorazed Bergen, destroying their now-dangerous galley.

After that the war proceeded slowly but surely. It got a bit easier after 730bc because I completed the Statue of Zeus in my capitol. I used a slave to build a colony on the iron outside Trondheim in 710bc, and rushed a harbor in a coastal city in 570bc to connect iron and wine to the rest of my empire. I would have done it sooner, but money was tight. Swordmen started joining the war after that. I gave the Vikings peace in 510bc for 2 cities—just to hurry their destruction along a bit. I redeclared on them in 410bc, and in 270bc they were gone.

A pic of the Eastern (Old) Empire…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BF_COTM11_EndAA_East.jpg

And the new Western Holdings…
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BF_COTM11_EndAA_West.jpg


Summary and Plans
I currently have 1 city, 27 towns, 2 settlers, 18 workers, 13 slaves, 12 Swordsmen, 9 catapults, 1 Medieval Infantry, 3 Ancient Cavs, and a few warriors and archers. Research is off except for a few scientists here and there, and it will probably stay that way for a while. I am making about 40gpt, and I will use that money to continue rushing and upgrading troops. I will try to time the discovery of Invention for right around the time my capitol will have enough shields to build Leonardo’s Workshop.

Cities that can use a border expansion are building libraries, but everyone else is concentrating on settlers, medieval infantry, catapults and galleys. I don’t intend to build any courts, temples or markets in this game. I will build aqueducts and harbors where needed, but I probably will not be able to divert cities to building them until around the time I attack the Dutch (when I will no longer need to keep cranking out military).

Carthage should complete the Great Lighthouse at any moment, so they will be my target after the Vikings. I will give them peace as soon as I can. Then I will use my extra galley movement to get my military over to the Mongols and take their horses. Simultaneously, I will attempt to wage a war against the Dutch for their Pyramids. I hate waging two (or more!) wars simultaneously, but I really don’t want to face Swiss Mercenaries if I can help it.

I currently have the Colossus in my capitol (built after SoZ), and it is now working on a prebuild for Leonardo’s Workshop. The Dutch are building the Mausoleum in their capitol to go along with the pyramids. Hopefully, I will take the Dutch capitol’s wonders and connect the Mongol horses before I complete Leo’s. That will start my GA. I will use the science boost to reach Chivalry quickly. Meanwhile, nearly all my cities will be building horsemen for a massive upgrade to knights and a worldwide push for Conquest.

The Middle Ages summary will follow shortly…

Predator, barbs fixed

Going for a Conquest Victory

The Middle Ages, 330bc—Conquest

Plans
In 270bc the Vikings were dead, and the plan was to immediately take a few Carthaginian cities, including their capitol which had just finished the Great Lighthouse. That would be useful in getting my troops to Mongolia more quickly. The next step would be to simultaneously attack the Dutch and Mongols. These wars were necessary in order to have a very productive Golden Age when Leonardo’s Workshop completed in my capitol around 300ad. I had to take the Mongol capitol in order to use my GA to build horses for upgrade to knights, and I needed the Dutch capitol in order to have a GA at all: they had the Mausoleum which would fulfill my scientific trait requirement. The war would also get me the Pyramids and, hopefully, prevent the Dutch from building their Swiss Mercenaries—the latter was to be avoided at all costs.

Warfare
I was forced to do a lot of simultaneous fighting in this game. There were two reasons for this: 1) the map was very large, with 60% water, and the AIs were spread out on far-flung peninsulas. I wanted to avoid needing to make a long trek at the end of the game which would delay my victory date. Establishing a slow but steady advance on all fronts seemed the best way to avoid that problem. 2) I didn’t want any of the AIs to get too strong and build lots of their unique units—particularly India, the Mongols and the Dutch.

I was pretty successful in the latter, but it was a close call. The Dutch got Feudalism before I could attack, but they only managed to upgrade 4 units to Swiss Mercenaries before I pillaged their irons. The Mongols never had a chance to build their Keshiks (and, oddly enough, they never even built a horseman). The Indians got one Jumbo, and that one only because it was the free unit they received when I had a city flip back to them. Here is progress picture along with an extremely quick summary of the wars:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BF-COTM11_Empire-progress.jpg

The First Carthaginian War, 130bc—50bc
Fought with Medieval Infantry and Trebuchets to capture the Great Lighthouse, which was extremely useful on this map. Carthage was very weak, but I left them with three cities because I needed to ship my troops to Mongolia.

The Dutch War, 90ad—500ad
Fought with Med. Inf. and Trebs at the beginning (around 8 of each) and knights (about 40 of them) and Trebs (around 15) at the end. The war started with an RoP rape which trashed my rep, but losing one’s rep against regent AIs doesn’t really affect the game much anyway. The reason for the war was to gain the Mausoleum, which I needed to trigger my GA, and to get the Pyramids, and to prevent them from building Swiss Mercs. Both wonders were captured on the first turn of the war. After that I just went for slow, steady progress. Most of my new military units were sent to the Mongol war until my GA began. In the latter part of this war I also sent a force of galleys, Trebs and Knights to clean the Dutch and Indians off the islands to the east.

The First Mongol War, 130ad—290ad
Fought with Med. Inf. and Trebs, about 8 of each. Captured horses on the first turn of the war (RoP rape). I gave them peace pretty quickly so I could concentrate on building horses for upgrade to knights.

The Indian War, 320ad—530ad
I had every intention of RoP raping the Indians in this war, but they beat me to the punch. They chose a good time, too. They immediately captured two of my workers and razed a city I had acquired from the Mongols. I also now had a small force of Med. Inf. and trebuchets stranded on a hill near their capitol. I had planned to attack them in 5 turns, when my knights would finally arrive. Fortunately, I did have a pikeman a few moves away from their only source of iron, and he managed to pillage it in 340ad. After that, it was just a matter of time for me to get my knights over. By the end I had around 30 knights and 12 trebuchets in their territory.

The Second Mongol War, 450ad-550ad
This was a sneak attack, not an RoP rape (my rep was blown). The Mongols were wiped out with knights (and armies) returning from the Indian War.

The Second Carthaginian War 510ad—530ad
Not much to report. I had about 80 knights at this time so they didn’t last long.

The Celt War, 510ad—580ad
See Second Carthaginian War. It should have been over two turns earlier, but they were able ship out a settler on a galley and it took me two turns to find and kill him.

I didn’t get into much detail on these wars, because the key to winning them quickly was actually in the timing of my Golden Age. It started with the completion of Leonardo’s Workshop in Seoul (the Mausoleum in captured Amsterdam and the Colossus in my capitol satisfied the wonder requirements). Here is a screen shot that shows my military at the beginning of my GA, in 280ad, and at the end in 480ad.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BF-COTM11_Bef-Aft-GA.jpg

It was a great GA for building horses and upgrading to knights. The capitol could build a horseman per turn, 7 cities could build horsemen in 2 turns, and 10 cities could build them in 3-5 turns. Since I turned research off after Chivalry, I was making about 340gpt, and that was nearly enough to upgrade all of the horsemen to knights.

The only disappointment in this game was in the leader department: a few hundred elite victories, but only 3 leaders. I would have expected more since I was mostly fighting against spearmen and archers.

Final Thoughts
This was a really fun map, thanks Karasu! It was the most challenging regent game I have ever come across. I’m pretty happy with my game, but in retrospect I think it would have been faster to go for domination/conquest with Cavalry. I feel this way mainly because of the remoteness of the horses and the sprawled-out landmass-of-many peninsulas, but also because of the amazing tech pace established by DaveMcW—he could have sent out cavalry shortly after the switch to AD!

As for the next game, I will second the request for India. I wouldn’t mind playing with an agricultural civ either, but only if it is on a really tough map and difficulty level. Agricultural is just too powerful otherwise.

@bradleyfeanor - what a game :goodjob:
I thought we will not see victories before 600AD.

I could have gotten Military Tradition in BC, but at that point I didn't even know where the horses were! I only had 2 warriors exploring the continent, after my curraghs got me all contacts.

It looks like the key to getting a high score on this map is early exploration to find the horses.

I could have gotten Military Tradition in BC, but at that point I didn't even know where the horses were!

How quickly you got there was shocking, to say the least. I never imagined that tech could move at such a pace in a regent game.

Did your Mongols not hook the horses up (and thereby reveal they had them via resources on the diplomacy screen)? This info actually threw me off a bit: I immediately assumed that they were the only civ that would have them, and I didn't discover the horses between the Celts and Dutch (which was easier to get to) until near the end of the game.

It will be interesting to see how early domination can be reached in a game where someone goes for the horses as early as possible, or for cavalry as early as possible. I think a victory in the 400s is possible.

@breadleyfeanor: awesome game :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:
@DaveMcW: Military Tradition in BC :confused: , only you call pull that off: terrific :worship: :worship:

Did your Mongols not hook the horses up (and thereby reveal they had them via resources on the diplomacy screen)?
Good point. Now that I look again, they did have horses connected. I just couldn't believe that was the closest source. :crazyeye:


@Ronald: Sir Pleb did a Siphai rush at ~200BC in the Ottoman GOTM.

Open class, on track for a 20k win, but will I make the 18th century?

The Medieval Era (in which PaperBeetle realises that without his micromanagement, he is nothing)

I didn't quite understand all the talk about resources in the ancient spoilers, but I notice that there's one resource which I don't have in this game, which I usually take for granted. My rep. In the ancient era I played at pitting the AI against each other, which made some enemies, and then after getting a savage beating at the hands of a single Mongol archer, broke an alliance to treat with Temujin. Early in the medieval, I find myself making things worse.

I start the era in 290 bc, bringing my 20k city, Seoul, up to full size and working on the Gardens. The rest of my empire is not in good shape though. By the time the Vikings settle on my eastern coast in 190 ad, I have only nine towns, corrupt, poorly connected and mostly undefended. I fear the Vikings for soon they will have Berserks, but the more immediate problem is that I am giving them ivory. When I realise they have a wonder build which they could switch to Zeus, I panic and break our trades. Ragnar is furious, and no one else seems too impressed either. As a staunchly honourable player, I feel I'm uncharted waters here. These are anxious times, but the dow never comes.

I feel safer after finishing Zeus myself, and putting the Templars next in my itinerary. Turning my attention to bulking up the Korean empire, I start filling in my continent while also competing for the eastern islands; India beat me to Gem Isle by a turn, but I got Wine Isle and Banana Isle, wondering if there might be a strategic resource in those jungles later (although the AI hasn't tried for this location yet, which suggests not). The Dutch have finally started settling out here too, but I'm rushing culture more aggressively than them and flipping some towns.

Things seem less precarious as I get into the heart of the medieval era. Gifts and gpt payments for ROP are keeping AI attitudes buoyant, at least among the civs that I haven't directly insulted. My wonder program ticks along nicely, letting the AI occupy itself with the military wonders on the bottom branch of the tree while I scoop the religious stuff. I also start sniffing around for spare resources; trading with the AI is too expensive given my world standing, so in 770 ad I squeeze a town in between the Japanese and Celts, bagging some silk.

Then in 990 ad Hanni ROP rapes me. I'm not sure why; he was one of the only civs with a weaker military than me, and my ancient cavalry brush off his attack admirably. My people rejoice at being so cruelly set upon, and I rejoice for I shall send my cavalry and crusaders off to Carthage to gain glory and great leaders. I capture the first town easily, but my unsuccessful seige of his ivory town wastes the best of my units. Meanwhile I am struggling to contain a trickle of galleys trying to sail around to the undefended bulk of my empire. Things improve when my hwach'a come online, and in 1110 ad I initiate my golden age, picking off a fleeing Carthaginian longbow.

Seoul steps up production to 38spt, my meagre forces annex another two Carthaginian border towns, while I squeeze another luxury camp in between the Dutch and Celts, and I ease into the industrial era in 1180 ad. In research terms, I am still neck and neck with the AI, who are mostly friendly with each other and trading happily amongst themselves. I shall try to bankrupt them with tech sales, starting with my free Medicine. I also feel good about grabbing the last medieval wonders - this is probably quite a good time to have my GA.

Culture in Seoul:
Palace 3900 bc
Colossus 1870 bc
Temple 1700 bc
Oracle 1100 bc
Library 1000 bc
Lighhouse 370 bc
Gardens 50 ad
Colosseum 110 ad
Zeus 280 ad
Cathedral 350 ad
Templars 530 ad
Michaelangelo 750 ad
University 770 ad
Copernicus 920 ad
Bach 1130 ad
... makes 6180 culture at 71cpt, for a projected win in 1874 ad.

The crass error of this era was my waste of a military leader. He emerged in combat with the Carthaginians, and gleefully rushed off to form an army, which would allow me to build that precious Epic... When I looked again, I found that the city to which I had gone did not contain an army, but a brand-new courthouse :sad: Will I get another chance? Time will tell...

Congrats, Bradleyfeanor! :goodjob:

Sorry, I totally haven't time for detailed post. :(
But I reached domination limit much later then you already in industrial age so I'm not your competitor now. Just I go for other type of victory... :rolleyes:

Congrats, Bradleyfeanor! :goodjob:

Sorry, I totally haven't time for detailed post. :(
But I reached domination limit much later then you already in industrial age so I'm not your competitor now. Just I go for other type of victory... :rolleyes:

I am guessing you must have gone for your 20k. That, or you got your dreaded, evil, miserable, epic, real-life-destroying Cow game out of the way. If so, I am envious. I hope you have time to post a spoiler at some point!

I am guessing you must have gone for your 20k. That, or you got your dreaded, evil, miserable, epic, real-life-destroying Cow game out of the way. If so, I am envious. I hope you have time to post a spoiler at some point!

Yes you guess it, I have gone for 20K. See my post in the last spoiler.

Open - going for 100K

Basic plan: I missed out on the Rep slingshot so i'm going to go for Feudalism and culture it up a la Dynamic. I'm going to need the Pyramids which have just been built in Amsterdam. My main goals for this era are to occupy Carthage (they are weak but have land) and the Dutch (who are strongish but have Pyramids and beautiful rolling fields to allow me to grow whippable citizens :devil: )

The Instigator
Okay, in 470BC we build the SoZ and start pumping out AC. I need to start weakening everyone. I declare war on Japan in 350BC hopefully sending them my way through Hannibal's lands. Eventually in 250BC we learn Feudalism and revolt, getting 6 turn anarchy. 5 turns later i recruit Hannibal to fight the Japanese. In 110BC we enter Feudalism. One of my intrepid warriors discovers the horse between the Celts and the Dutch. I need this tile! The only other horse I know of is deep in Mongol lands. The last place I want it... The Celts and Dutch are a couple of land monsters so hopefully i can get them to cripple each other. Declare on Celts and send Dutch towards Entremont with a gift of Monotheism. In 90BC we declare on India and send the Viking barbarians to duke it out with them. Next turn, the Khan senses my interventionist game and demands Feudalism from me. No way dude. He declares. Bothered? :cool:

Hannibal's lesson
In 110AD, Carthage and Japan sign PT, effectively breaking our MA. So I decide to punish Hannibal. With our stack of MedInf and AC we capture Utica, Leptis Minor and Carthage. We sign PT with Mongols and get them to vent frustration on Japan. We trade for Engineering and Chivalry from the Dutch. We capture Leptis Magna, Hippo and Sabratha in quick succession. I sense the Celts are still too strong, and they have recently build the Great Wall so I ask Japan and Mongols to keep them busy. 330AD sees Hannibal's effective exile from the continent.

William's surprise
We nestle an outpost on the south of the Netherlands and fill it with troops. After learning Gunpowder in 480AD, and sensing William is fatigued I declare on him and make my way towards Amsterdam, capturing Groningen, Maastricht, The Hague and Holwerd on the way. Amsterdam falls in 500AD. We create a similar staging post in Scandinavia just in case, but i doubt i will need to use it. we take a couple more Dutch cities and ask for peace in 570AD. The road is clear to the horsies now. Yay! The Celts now have SunTzu, which is fantastic. :rolleyes: I have a land and culture monster in possession of Knights Templar, Great Wall and SunTzu, couldn't be worse really.

Golden Age
We take a couple of poorly defended Celtic cities but the others are too strong until I get some firepower. Declare on Japan again and grab a couple of easy cities. Get our first leader in 740AD and rush an army with him. Decide to leave him for a second since I will have cavalry in 2 turns. Then, my Hwachas get their first kill! BTW, these guys are awesome... Our golden age sees us go on a mass cavalry and Hwacha stampede. Besides, all libraries and universities are being taken care of by whipping, who needs production? :mischief: We grab a few more Japanese cities, and in 930AD we enter the Industrial Ages. Get Nationalism as our freebie. Hmm, Steam would have been nice, but you gotta love the draft... :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/930AD_-_indus.JPG

My only spoiler - I start this game with less than a week to finish it due to tax season and SGOTM06.

I begin by moving my settler NE and founding on the hill between the game and the cow. My original production consists of 3 warriors (2 for exploring and 1 for MP) and then a granary. By 3000BC I have discovered the elephants but have not met anyone yet. I have already researched Pottery and I’m currently working on Writing heading for what I expect to be a standard Republic slingshot. I meet Carthage around 2750BC and found my second city in 2710BC.

By 1990BC I’m up to 4 cities and have a settler in route. I’ve also managed to trade for Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. I’m now running science at 80%. By 1750BC I have still only met Carthage but I can see a Dutch city. I meet Japan in 1700BC, the Mongols in 1550BC and finally contact the Dutch city in 1525BC. The tech pace is amazing me for a Regent level game and I’m actually concerned about the slingshot. I have also not uncovered any horses even though I have cleared a lot of fog. Based on this I decide that the Statue of Zeus is going to be imperative in this game. So I decide to go for Philosophy prior to Code of Law and to select Mathematics. I also start a pre build for the Statue. By 1250BC I have met the Celts and the Vikings. I’m up to 8 cities and 1 turn from Philosophy. The Celts are up Polytheism and I can’t buy it from them, so this cements the selection of Mathematics next turn.

By 1000BC I have met everyone except India, I have 11 cities, 23 pop and I have 14 techs. I’m short Poly, COL, Const & Curr for exiting the Ancient Age. I’m 9 turns away from the SOZ and have a military of 8 warriors, 1 archer, 1 curragh, 1 settler and 10 workers.

Here’s a look at my empire.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gator_C11_02.jpg

In 800BC I complete the Statue of Zeus and quickly build a barracks in Pyongyang before making my first Ancient Cavalry. Since I still have no horses this will be my major offensive unit. I start to build up my army at this point.

In 570BC the Celts declare war on me after I refuse their demand. Because I’m so short of time to play I decide to be a little nasty in this game in an effort to make it a quick one. So in 490BC I buy embassies with the Mongols and the Dutch. I then buy Republic from the Dutch for 2 techs and gpt. Then I sign the Dutch to a MA versus the Celts, hey they started it, for more gpt. I then sign the Mongols to a MA versus the Celts also. I then revolt drawing a 7 turn anarchy period. And as a parting bit of nastiness I declare on the Dutch to get all my gpt back. I enter the Middle Ages at this point.

The rest of the game is a pretty straightforward path of destruction. Having seen the map layout I decide to launch a three-phase attack. The first phase consists of a push up through Carthage and into the main part of the map. The second phase is an assault on the Vikings before they can build Berserkers. When I launched this phase I did not realize they were on an island, but I just moved a few ships over to later transport those units to attack India. The third phase consisted of another naval crossing and attack on the Dutch and later on the Celts.

Phase 1 – Center Strike starts in 450BC with a declaration of war on Carthage and the capture of my first city. My military at this point was 8 warriors, 6 archers, 3 cats, 5 trebuchet and 3 Ancient Cavalry. Their land is full of marshes and jungles so I’m not really interested in wiping them out at this stage. I capture their capital in 290BC and generate my first Great Leader in 250BC. I quickly use it to form a very powerful weapon, a 3-unit Ancient Cavalry army with 3 moves and 3 attacks. I make peace with Carthage in 110BC after capturing 6 cities and leaving them with 3 cities in the marshy mountain area. I’ve hooked up my iron by now and a military of 12 swords, 5 archers, 3 cats, 5 trebuchets, 2 galleys, 3 Ancient Cavs and a 3-unit AC Army. The earlier nasty play has brought the world’s tech pace to a virtual standstill.

The second stage of Center Strike continues with an assault on Japan, I declare on them in 90AD after positioning 6 swords, 3 AC and the AC Army just outside their lands. My cats and trebuchets are stuck at the mountains and are waiting for roads. They were very helpful on the Carthage war but will now sit idle for a long stretch of time. I capture the first Japanese city in 130AD and luckily produce my second Great Leader in 210AD after capturing Tokyo. Again, I use the Leader to form my second 3-unit AC Army. My goal is to progress towards Shimonoseki and gain control of horses. Later in this war I sign the Mongols up in a MA versus Japan to try to reduce the number of Mongol units. At this point I am strong against everyone and I am considering going for conquest, if I have enough time. The Japanese war continues until 430AD when I sue for peace and gain a city in the eastern side of the Celtic lands. Japan’s last 2 cities including Shimonoseki are surrounded by Mongols units, which impacted my decision to make peace with Japan. I quickly gift this city to the Mongols who are still at war with the Celts from my earlier dealings. I have still not acquired any horses.

Around 380AD I notice that the Celts have captured 1 of the 3 remaining Carthage cities in the game, so I detour a few units to go after the last 2 cities and to keep the Celtic troops out of my undefended lands. No real problem here and I position these few troops near the former Carthage city that the Celts took. I have also signed ROPs with both the Mongols and the Celts to allow them to travel thru my lands to wage war on each other.

Phase 2 – Western Strike starts in 70AD with a declaration of war on the Vikings. Using 3 galleys I transport 5 or 6 swords and 2 AC to the island. I quickly capture 2 cities on the island and slowly continue to take it over. I continue to ferry over swords and a few AC. At this point I still do not realize this is an island, but it is looking that way. To my dismay there are no horses here either. The Viking assault continues until 410AD when I eliminate them from the game. By now I have built up a force about a dozen MDIs, which are supplemented by 3 ACs and 1 trebuchet. At the same time I am capturing the last 2 Viking cities, on the smaller island NW of their former island, I start transporting the rest of the Western Strike Force towards India.

India turns into a little tougher challenge for 2 reasons. First I have to transport reinforcements from the mainland to Viking Island and then run them across the island before transporting them to India. Not a quick supply line. The second reason is that due to India’s isolated location I was not able to draw them into any of the world wars. This is a direct result of having been aligned with the Mongols for most of the game. So even though I am Strong to India they still have a nice supply of units in their holdings. I capture two Indian cities in 440 AD and also generate my third Great Leader. Before I can make another AC army I lose 2 of my 3 ACs in this region so I end up making a 3-unit MDI army. By 550AD I have captured 9 Indian cities and my forces are spread out across their lands. They send a small stack of swords to a city I only have 1 defender in so I make peace with them. After a few turns of peace I decide to run the MDI Army up through Mongol (have ROP) lands to help participate in the second stage of Phase 3.

Phase 3 – Northern Strike starts in 420AD with a declaration of war on the Dutch. My assault force consists of 1 AC and 9 MDIs. I capture Groningen on the coast which allows me to load a galley enter the city unload the galley and then return the galley to my loading spot (2 tiles north of the iron) and load in more troops. I capture the Dutch capital in 440AD and have gained 7 cities by 500AD. I then detour 2 galleys and 3 troops to go after all the little islands that the Dutch have settled. I’m still tempted to go for a conquest win at this point so I sue for peace in 510 AD to gain the 1 tile island city of the Dutch. The peace only lasted 1 turn because they demanded I remove my troops and I said no, big surprise there. By now all new troops to the Northern theater are being run up the western side of the former Dutch holdings and are attacking the Dutch cities near the Celtic border.

Center Strike – Part 2 - After resting and healing my 2 AC Armies, I reposition them towards the Celts in anticipation of a two-front assault on the Celts. I am also slowly filling in a chain of cities in former Japanese lands as I head to claim a supply of horses. In 510 AD I finally build a city to claim the horse supply in former Japan. Unfortunately, there is a lot of roadwork that needs to be completed to actually hook them up.

I kick off the Celtic assault in 520AD attacking the former Carthage cities that the Celts captured. I then move them into Celtic land proper and start capturing cities from West to East, slowly working my way to Entremont which houses the TOA. (It’s now Sunday, so I am no longer trying for conquest and decide to go for domination, since I only have a few hours to finish.) The MDI army arrives from the Western Strike force and joins the fun. In 660AD I finally have the horses hooked up. I still have not bothered to learn Chivalry and I am now on Entremont’s doorstep, which falls to me in 670AD.

Northern Strike continued – 550AD sees the capture of the last large Dutch city and the first Celtic action on the second front. The prolong state of war that I arranged for the Celtic, through wars with Mongol and the Dutch, have left them with almost no Gallic Swords and they have never hooked up their supply of horses. By now the Northern and Central strike forces have merged and are being resupplied by a constant flow of MDIs following the Dutch supply line. I get a little greedy and lose my MDI Army in 690AD so I quickly make peace with the Celts in an effort to save my stack of cats and trebuchets. Prior to making peace I actually rush 2 horses to attack a Celtic unit that has slipped thru my lines and is approaching a city. These are the only 2 horses I make in the game and I lose one of them attacking the Celtic troop.

End Game – In 710AD I control 1370 tiles and need only 387 tiles for Domination victory and I’ll get expansions in 90 of my 125 cities. Unfortunately, I’m 62-tiles short of victory after the expansion in 720AD, so I declare on the Celts again and grab a city. I’m 36- tiles short of victory in 730AD, so I capture 3 more Celtic cities and declare on India to capture 2 more cities and secure my victory. I even manage to generate another Great Leader in 730AD.

Game ends in 740AD.

Here’s a look at my progress
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gator_C11_01.jpg

Great map Karasu. I see Ronald got me by 2 turns, but he used Cavs ;)

EDIT: I also finish the game without triggering my Golden Age.

Predator Class

The first important decision was the placement of the capital. The advantage of the starting point were the game and the cow, the disadvantages were the absence of fresh water and the position at the end of a peninsula. Only one advantage, but two disadvantages: I decided to walk. Two steps later I found a passable location at the lake.

The next important question was: How I can trigger the Golden Age? I didn't plan to spend to much effort for research. In this case the Hwach'a was not an alternative. So I had to trigger GA by two wonders. The commercial one was clear: The Colossus. But for the scientific one there were two choices: the Mausoleum or the Great Library. I decided to build the Mausoleum because it needed 200 shields less (or allows to build 20 Warriors more) than GL.

While I was developing my civilization, a - at least in my opinion - strange thing happened: My reconnaissance Warrior found a not defended Carthagian town. I never saw this before. In every AI town there was at least one defending unit. The only problem was that this town have had only one inhabitant. So I decided to wait. Maybe the AI would build a Numidian Mercenary. In this case the increment of the population would happen before the defense unit would be available. But a Carthagian Warrior appeared at the same turn when the population increased. Nevertheless after all this waiting I decided to attack. It was a 45:55 chance against me, but I was successful. I also decided to attack because this town was a valuable one: it was build on an ivory resource. So after building a harbor I was able to build the Statue of Zeus. I made peace when - very late - the Carthegian counter attack started.

In the beginning of the game I decided to go for a conquest victory. So I was not amused when I realized the lack of Horses. In the foreign advisor I could see that only the Mongols have Horses. I assumed - later it becomes clear that this was a wrong assumption - that this is the only strategic resource Horses on the map. So the Mongols came at the second place of my attack list. The first place went to the Vikings because I was afraid that they will be successful by building the Pyramids or the Temple of Artemis on their island. This first attack was done by Medieval Infantry and Ancient Cavalry. Because the Vikings were not very strong and I have had around 30 MI - all Veterans and most of them upgraded Warriors - and six Ancient Cavalry it was not a challenge to defeat them.

After the defeat of the Vikings and my troops were on the way to the Mongols I got the message that the Great Wall was completed in Carthago. So I made a little trip to conquer Carthago. The resulting war was a low intensity one. From the Korean side only three MI and one Spearman were involved. It seems that the Carthagians didn't recover from the first fight. It was possible to eliminate them but I wanted not to spend any additional time. It was necessary to get the Horses and to start the build-up of Horsemen as soon as possible.

With the use - or better: the abuse - of Right of Passage I started the Mogolian war. In the first turn some important cities like Karakorum (Pyramids) and Ta-Tu (Dyes) came under Korean control. In this moment the Indians declared war. The Indians were very inactive and I was not interested - also I didn't have enough troops - to fight against four enemies on a high activity level. So for a long time nothing happened at the Indian front. The first strike weakened the Mongols enough so that they were not able for a powerful counter-attack. Their territory was captured step by step. The supply reached the Mogolian front via ship chaining.

Why I say four enimies? Mongols, Indians and Carthagians are only three. In the meantime the Dutch finished Temple of Artemis. This was reason enough to attack them (again with the abuse of RoP). But this attack came too late. The Dutch have upgraded a lot of Spearmen to Swiss Mercenaries. So I made peace (getting one additional city) after conquering Amsterdam (ToA) and two other cities. The next attack would start when Knights would be available.

The time for the second Dutch war came when the Mongols were nearly eliminated. Now all new troops - most of them Knights - were sent to the Dutch front. After elimination of the Mongols the Army Group West was regrouped by splitting them into two parts: One part was marching South to finish the Indian war, the second part was marching East to attack the Japanese. At the same time I made peace with the Carthagians.

With the engagement of the Knights the Swiss Mercenaries were overcome. But most of the also engaged Medieval Infantry were lost. In most of the city attacks the MI formed the first wave and the Knights the second one.

Now it was time to eliminate the Celts. Nevertheless I have abused the RoP with the Mongols I could conclude one with them. While I was placing my troops for the last big attack in this game I found a third Horse ressource - a second one was discovered on the former Mongolian territory - and saw a Celt Worker connecting it. Two turns later the Horses were connected and Gunpowder was researched by the Celts. I was not interested to fight against Knights and Musketmen. So I started the attack immediately although not all off my troops have reached the best attack position. The resulting fight itself was running better than expected. Until Celtian defeat only two Knights and one Musketman appeared.

At 490AD when I had 65% of world area under my control I started to destroy small towns with one or two inhabitants.

The elimination of the Indians and the Japanese happened without any bigger problems: No War Elephants and only one Samurai.

All was going well and it seemed that I would get my conquest victory in 600AD. But then something happened what I am calling the "Cadiz Desaster". Cadiz was located on an island in the West of the Carthagian country. By ship chaining I sent four Veteran Knights (I used only Veteran MI and Knights) to this island defended by two Standard Numidian Mercenaries. But the attack was not very successful: Two Knights were killed und the two survivers had one hit point. Only one of the defending Numidian Mercenaries was also killed and the other one was now a Veteran. So I sent two additional knights to this island with the following result: Four dead Knights and one Elite Numidian Mercenary defending Cadiz. Now I lost my nerves, took all what I could get and brought it to this damned island. The third attack was successful. But I lost five turns. All the other Carthagian towns were not a problem. So I got conquest victory in 650AD.

I made three big - and some minor - mistakes in this game:
1. In the Ancient Age I exchanged technologies with the Dutch. So the Dutch were able to research Feudalism - and in consequence to upgrade Swiss Mercenaries - before I start my attack.
2. My advance was not very well organized. So I have had sometimes a lot of troops at locations where I didn't need them. It is better to make something like a "strategic plan" latest after the map is more or less known.
3. I have had a lack in reconnaissance. Without this lack I would have discovered earlier the Horses at the border between Celts and Dutch. With this knowledge another - better - strategy was possible: Two advancing wings, the West one defeating in this succession Vikings, Indians and Mongols and the North-East one defeating Dutch, Celts and Japaneses.

Hey Son of Hendrik, I was wrong to expect no spoiler from You.

Great game, good write-up! :goodjob:

Although I'm missing some milestones, years when you reached a new Era, Golden Age, key techs. Just to compare.

Maybe some minimaps (with date) would also help.

I still wonder how you could be so fast even without horses (for a long time). :eek:

Ganz großer Sport! :worship:

Indeed, thanks for the summary Hendrikszoon! I don't suppose you happen to have recorded when you captured the Pyramids and ToA also, do you? I am trying to determine if it was better early population management/territory acquisition or an earlier capture of the ToA/Pyramids that led to your higher Jason score, and the dates would be most helpful.

Hi bradleyfeanor,
unfortunately you are right: I am too lazy to document my games (next time I will do it - at least a little bit). Also in the moment I don't have access to my computer, so I can not replay to have a look. But if I remember correctly I got Pyramids and ToA more or less at the same time in early AD (30AD, 50AD or 70AD). I will look for the exact dates when I am back at home on May 20th.

In my opinion Pyramids are not so important like ToA. I got most of the Firaxis points (after reducing the early win bonus) from the territory. The exact values will follow when I am back at home.

And there is another interesting detail: The lost five turns didn't cost me any Jason points. In the last turns my Firaxis score increased by 41 points every turn. So finishing in 600 AD I would have had (inclusive early win bonus) 6114 Firaxis points and 10975 Jason points. So I got 12 additional Jason points thanks my "Cadiz desaster".

Oh my. I don't think you need to bother loading up your old game. If your 50ad date for capturing the ToA is even close to correct, then it would certainly account for a big score difference. I didn't get the ToA until 420ad.

I paid very, very heavily for allowing the Indians to have peace. :(

Very impressive game Hendrikszoon! I believe this gives you a "gold medal" / "games played" percentage of 66.6%. Sheesh!!! :eek: