It's actually AWD continents. Thirteen proved to be an unlucky number for HNDY13. So here we go again.

It's AWD :wow: Continents on a small map. Standard AW, so we can trade before we declare, pillage, capture wonders, yada yada yada.

Each player can post an opening 30 or 40 turns and we will decide which start looks best.

C3C 1.22 Patch
Level: Deity
Variant: Always War :hammer:
Map Type: Continents
Size: Small

Civilization: Player Option
Age: Player Option
Temperature: Player Option
Climate: Player Option
Barbarians: Player Option
Rivals: Player Option
AI Aggression: Player Option

Victory Condition:All enabled
Culturally linked starts: Off
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On

Roster
1. Handy
2. ThERat
3. DeadlyNeprhons!
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger




Always War Boilerplate as we play it.
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no GPT trades allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count.

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves. You may whip at will, including captured cities or cities where all citizens are unhappy.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. We will play 10 turns at first, and possibly fewer later (5) if the turns begin to take too long.

Lucky candle to light the way.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/HNDY02_luckycandle.gif

Lighting the lucky candle.

Checking in. When do you want us to have the games posted by Handy?

Checking in. When do you want us to have the games posted by Handy?

How about post a start if you care to by midnight CST Wednesday. That's a long time, but I need to do my taxes :( in here somewhere. And then there's that basketball tournament.

If someone posts a super duper start we can all decide if we want to start earlier.

Does this sound okay?

Bede Love the avatar. :) The viper just wasn't the same.

currently trying to achieve something here on AWD, my worst is defeat after 9 minutes... :lol:

currently trying to achieve something here on AWD, my worst is defeat after 9 minutes... :lol:

Yeah, I lost one in the first few turns once when the AI founded right next door.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy14rat.SAV)

Pre-Turn
go for Romans due to nice UU for a AWD, climate is all random, barbs sedentary. But this is pangaea (sorry didn't notice it's supposed to be continents). anyway, had a frustrating time with so many losses

get a pretty weird start but due to both fishes, research is steamrolling and we get BW and IW pretty fast, even managed to get
masonry just on the last IT
we also got CB and the wheel due to trades
we already have a MGL in our capital
last turn, Maya comes into view and we declare

the situation after 45 turns
defeated initial SOD of the 3 Civ's we met. defeated a lot of units, now building road to iron
land is packed with 3 Civ's we met
Hittites, India and Inca abnd we got Maya here as well

we have IW and Veii is settled directly on iron,
we just got masonry and can now build walls

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy14rat1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy14rat1b.jpg

That looks like a pretty good start Therat. I see we have horses in range of Veii too so that means knights eventually. The only problem is having three enemies on one island but the terrain seems to be in our favor.

Its an interesting start, but one that I think would be very hard to win. Where does one build cities? Its in the center of the map as well.

If we were playing emporer (maybe Demigod), it would be interesting. Deity I don't think we could get anywhere. 3 Enemies is harsh. It makes it harder to use our Iron to go after a civ for example.

Igor's been working the generator.

small, continents, 70% water, sed. barbs, random climate, Joan, random AI, respawn off, SGL off. Least aggressive AI.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_1.jpg

sorry for the double. forgot to mention there are mines on both BG and one tobacco. The land to the north is a peninsula.

forgot to mention, that Hittite city nearby was popped via a hut, so it might not be that close to the capital. If we were to go for mine, we have to acquire land via a legion rush and push forward. it would be tough initially , but if we succeed , we could harvest a legion army, which would be very powerful

Hmm...They appear to be advancing in some sort of formation. Perhaps they have gotten better.

Sorry for a double, but you're not gonna believe this.


EDIT- We fell eventually. :(

AK's start looks interesting. Skinny strips of land make for an easier defense. The main thing it's missing is fresh water.

Preturn: Choose a Dry, Young world 60% Land. Sumeria.
Build Enkidu, Enkidu, Barracks, Enkidu, Granary.

Met both the Dutch and India. We have a strong Capitol. It can build a Enkidu and settler every 4 turns.

I played until 50 AD to see if we would survive the initial onslaught.

The Good. Very strong for 1750 AD.
The Bad. GA almost over. No Iron seen (not everything explored though)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_BC1750.JPG

Holland has 5 cities, India has 6 we have 4 with one settling soon.

4000BC
Move settler to river and worker to cow.
Two cows, 2 luxuries, and an extreme corner of the mini map.
Select BW

3550
Babylonian spear appears from the SE. Declare.

3250
We have 5 regular warriors versus 3 reg, warriors and 2 reg. spears.

3150
Babylon is next to Moo. The worker hauls butt to get out of the way.
BW in 7 turns.

IBT
Good news: We kill 2 warriors and 1 spear on defense.
Bad news: Babylonian Bowman is on the horizon.

3050IBT
We kill the other warrior and spear on defense.
The Babylonian bowman retreats. Another war?
Romans enter from the east.
We are only 2 turns from BW. Go ahead and give Rome Pottery for BW and WC + 10 gold.
Declare on Rome.

2950
We can pull 10spt for a couple of quick veteran 2 turn spears before Rome’s first wave shows up.

2630
Send settler to the wines on the hill.
Rome sends 3 warriors and 2 archers.

2950
Found Wine Hill and our economy really picks up.
Rome stack grows to 4 archers and 4 warriors. They are in 2 four packs.

2550
Rome is positioned to attack with 4 warriors & 2 archers next turn.
Once Rome committed to Moo I moved both spears there and sent regular warriors to the hill. This may buy us time to build another spear if they redirect to the Wines.
We have a spear and
I’ll play one more to see how we fare.

IBT
Rome insists on attacking across the river. :rolleyes:
We don’t lose any and win 5.

2510
We can build 1 more 2-turn spear and then build a settler to go claim the incense.

Moo has barracks 1 elite spear, 1 veteran spear, 1 veteran warrior and 1 regular warrior.
Wine Hill has a healing veteran spear and 2 regular warriors.
I’m surprised we met both so early given where we are on the mini map.

2150bc wide angle

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy14_bc2510.JPG

I prefer handys start to the others. We can easily fit a city above the capital to get the third cow and maybe share cows. It looks like the best start where we can make a low corruption ring. Rome will be difficult to conquer but we will have mounties. Assuming we can get horses.....

handy's start looks good and promising but only if we have horses. that's why I played my turns until it was clear we have.

greebley's start looks like we are stretched. 4 cities are great but the cities are not 3 tile spacing. any reason?

Edit: Oops, sorry, please disregard my intrusion. Of course, now I have subscribed, so every cloud has a silver lining?

Greebley's will be 3 tile once the settle plops down in place between Sumer and Kish.not really since Sumer and Ur are 4 tiles apart. did we pop a city?

No, I wanted the extra growth to place on the River. My plan was to put a town between Sumer and Ur to bring it to 3 spaces away.

The lack of iron I think is the biggest problem. I am fine with Handy's start

I opened both saves and both greebley's and handy's starts are promising for their own reasons
I just played a few turns to get a feel since it's a little hard to judge.

first I thought greebley's cities would stretch us a little but we can build 1 turn enkidus and that should help until the towns are connected. it has room the expand also.

EDIT: and greebley's map has plenty of BG's and cows, amazing start, just no iron

now, I am pretty undecided which one is better.

I played tired last night. The second city should be on the incese since it has better tiles to work.

We can play Iroquois and then come back to Sumeria after that game. Or vice versa. As long as we have either iron or horse the Iroquois have a chance. Sumer is best AW civ on continents or pangaea IMHO. Byz are way strong for the human on islands. We'll until the Official Wednesday deadline unless everyone checks in and wants to play Iroquois or Sumeria. Well maybe we can go ahead without Slinger. He may not have access.

I'm fine with either Hiawatha or Gil.

THe Start

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy14_4000BC_00.jpg

The Stats

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy14_Stats.gif

Built 4 hoplites, a worker and a settler. Researched Masonry at maximum.

Explored the surroundings, found silks, and a border has appeared in the NW.

We appear to be at the end of the continent with water and tundra to our backs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy14_2350BC_00.jpg

I suppose I'm checking in if I haven't already. I'm fine with all the starts but my vote is for Iroquois. I've been wanting some ancient mobile war.

Stupid question time (I R idiot). If we go with Bede's start, what happens if we build our first ring of cities at cxc? Assuming city 2 grabs the silks. http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bedestart.jpg
In other words, our cities may be 3 from the capital but only one from the city on either side of the ring. Think a wheel and spokes. Gives us lots of interior roads to quickly reposition troops. Or has Igor been into the hops and barley too early?

Thats too crowded for my own preference. I try to follow the rule that I never put a town in the 20 tiles the citizens can work (so distance two only on the corners).

The problem is that you end up with smaller cities that each need infra and have less shields to use meaning units take longer to build (I would rather have a cavalry built every 4 turns, than two built afte 8 turns).

As Greebley said, long term a tight pack hurts production too much.

That's a guess, I've never actually tried it.

[QUOTE]The problem is that you end up with smaller cities that each need infra and have less shields to use meaning units take longer to build (I would rather have a cavalry built every 4 turns, than two built afte 8 turns).

but will they need any infra beyond a rax? If we connect up multi lux, and don't build ducts, how many tiles are needed to make MDI in a reasonable amount of time? Will we get to cav? If we do, we could thin out the cities by building workers and disbanding.

@ greebley & handy - you've got vastly greater experience, i'm not advocating, just curious. I was also thinking of how to get down enough cities to support 2 armies early.

I'm leaning towards the Greeks mostly because I want to see how the Admiral's Hedgehog works. Two early armies of hoplites would really burn some ground. And I don't think we would have to worry too much about AI offensives until Iron Working is known.

If it is a long game you do need more than a rax. You want a market and library to keep science and gold high for example. One of the hardest things about AW at the hardest levels is keeping research up. When we first started playing we would run into games where research essentially dropped to 10% and below - the AI advances to Cav and rifles, infantry, (tanks) while you stall.

The Rax only works if you can overcome the enemy early. This can be doable on some starts. On others you cannot and will have a long drawn out war. The higher the difficulty level, the harder (and the more civs you meet early) the harder a quick win becomes.

If it is a long game you do need more than a rax. You want a market and library to keep science and gold high for example. One of the hardest things about AW at the hardest levels is keeping research up. When we first started playing we would run into games where research essentially dropped to 10% and below - the AI advances to Cav and rifles, infantry, (tanks) while you stall.

The Rax only works if you can overcome the enemy early. This can be doable on some starts. On others you cannot and will have a long drawn out war. The higher the difficulty level, the harder (and the more civs you meet early) the harder a quick win becomes.


that answers the question. it's a roll of the die to see if we could put enough cities out and keep up with the AI. In my limited AW, never really had to worry about techs beyond chiv.

like i said before, I'm fine with what the team decides to go for. BTW, aren't we past or nearing the deadline? Lets get this puppy running. I'd suggest tweaking the order to put me after greebley or slinger. I'm infamous for screwing up early city placement (see gram's prodigal game)

I guess we should all vote then.

My order of preference:

1) Sumeria (I like playing this civ which is why I picked it)
2) Iroquois (A good solid position that would make a good game)

I think we need a stronger start than the other starts provide. Without a bonus food resource it is really, really hard.

I'm amb. to the start, but how do we get around the despotic GA with the sumerians?

1) Sumeria (I like playing this civ which is why I picked it)
2) Iroquois (A good solid position that would make a good game)


I'll vote this way. I'm easy with whatever:
I'd suggest tweaking the order to put me after greebley or slinger
The tally and a Tentative new playing order
1. Handy - Sum; Iro
2. ThERat - happy with either
3. DeadlyNeprhons! - IRO
4. Greebley Sum, IRO
5. Admiral Kutzov -
6. Bede - Greece
7. Barbslinger -

Looks like I'm the swing vote....what am I offered? I can be bought but there are no guarantees I'll stay bought.

All kidding aside: Sumeria.

yes, let's go for Greebley's start and if it turns out a desaster, we use tar and feathers on him and replay using handy's start. :lol:
eager to start now :ar15:

yes, let's go for Greebley's start and if it turns out a desaster, we use tar and feathers on him and replay using handy's start. :lol:
eager to start now :ar15:

Grab it and go Rat. You're up. :thumbsup:

Grab it and go Ratme? thought it's you? actually you could start, if you can take it, because I will not be able to play tonight, since we have our D&D for the students. :beer:

So, if you grab it tonight, I will follow up tomorrow.

me? thought it's you?

:crazyeye: I was thinking you were up since I play first and we are on the sceond set of turns.
You would be up if we were playing Iro, but since it's Sumeria I'll grab it and play it tonight. :)

Greebley

Can you post a dot map. I'm not sure what your intentions were. The mountains and rivers make this a little tricky and I want to be on the same page. :D

This is what I was thinking. I am not in love with the position of the red town. I wanted to make sure I grabbed the Lux so I settled that one first so it was in a strong spot. Problem is that Red is not so good because of it, but it can be a less important town.

Feel free to change this. I did it fairly quickly.

[Edit: Note that I am also trying to maximize river cities for the extra growth.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_BC1750a.JPG

blue dot should be one tile northeast on that hill, else we get 2 tile spacing

That's pretty close to what I was thinking. I was sure you were maximizing rivers. The problem with the blue dot 1 tile NE will be reinforcing it with all those rivers in the way.

If blue goes 1 tile NW, it's 2 from both Sumer and Ur and on the correct side of the river. BUT the AI will camp out on those mountains so it won't be reinforcable anyway. Perhaps the hill is best. That will be a tough town to hold but maybe it will buffer the capital a little bit.

Either way with the red dot we'll not have perfect CxxC but it's worth it to get on the river and save a duct build I think.

I see we are going for the power of the "Pink Dot".

That outermost blue is going to be a tough one to reinforce in any case and being on the hill one filed away from the moutains is better than right next to them. At least the bogies have to climb down to attack and their wounded horsemen won't have a mountain to heal on.

Pre Turn
The Pink Dot strikes fear into the heart of the AI. Such fear they offer M, A, W, CB plus their workers and cities for peace. We decline.

IBT
Four Indian warriors exit stage left and we are 4 and 0 baby.

Turn 1 1725
Elite EW steps out of Ur top rescue the workers
Settler begs to be sent to the powerful pink dot location but he is ordered to red.

IBT


Turn 2 1700
Treasury department puts us on notice, we blow them off.
Settle Umma Thurman. I can’t help it, it’s a tradition.
Moving EW over to save Kish from the Dutch who are brining archers.

IBT
Two Indians impale but no leader.
Ur Capital – settler worker.

Turn 3 1675
Settler tows 2 EW toward the blue hill of death.
Drop slider.
Dutch are settling close to Kish my Ash already, so I switch worker to barracks. It’s going to catch a lot of heat I think.

IBT
Wheel – masonry
Dutch archer dies

Turn 4 1650
Archer bumps Indian warrior
We have horses SW if Umma.
Masonry in 7 @ 0GPT.
Trail of Spears heading to Kish.

IBT
Dutch archer misses and id skewered

Turn 5 1625
Building some roads

Turn 6 1600
Not much. Killed archer ITB of defense.

IBT
Some Dutch retreat! Maybe it’s an AI war. Now new Indians lately.

Turn 7 1575
Bump lux. Need those spices that the Dutch has fortified on top of.
Found Bad-tibiria Blue Dot

IBT
GA ends
Dutch spice archer dies

Turn 8 1550
Roads.

IBT
India starts ToA

Turn 9 1525

IBT
MOM done in Thebes
Elite WE dies to archer. We need walls.

Turn 10
Roads

Notes:
Lost 1 and killed a bunch.
Settler & EW are close to the powerful pink dot.
Switch barrack build to walls when we get masonry.

The lands at 1500 bc


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1500bc.JPG

ok, got it, tomorrow morning since I might take a day off

After masonry we can start a place prebuild anytime we want. I see 2 forest and 6 BG plus a cow in Sumer's 21 tiles. We don't have CB to expand the borders though.

No good place to put a city to grab the horses because of the mountain of fire next door. We could go coastal N of the river to save a duct build but that would no pull in the horses. OTOH I hate to build a city 1 tile from the river. Maybe we build S of the horses on the coast. Ducts are half price so that will help a little.

I expect the forward hill cities to need spear replacements periodically. Probably should try to keep 3 EW in those cities at all times. Maybe even build regular 10 shield EW's there after the walls complete and just let them promote to vet. Regular EW's are an 82% favorite to vet archers in a walled city on a hill. They should promote to vet in those hill towns. Just a thought.

I would start a palace prebuild right away. Otherwise we will be less likely to get GLib and we really need it at this diff level.

I would start a palace prebuild right away. Otherwise we will be less likely to get GLib and we really need it at this diff level.

I'm all for that! I usually start it too early in solo games. But better safe than sorry. If we don't get it we have sealed our fate.

Masonry is due in 2. The archer in Sumer is due in 3 and can be switched if Rat desires to do so. The archer was destined for Kish to get those spices so finishing it may be the better option. There is another archer down in Lagash you can send to Kish to fight for spices.

Don't forget to switch Umma & Kish from rax to walls.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_1250BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
pre-build as soon as possible, walls of course and do we want HBR?

1. 1475BC
move units, road forest, reduce science masonry due next turn

IT 2 archers attack and promote EW to elite at Kish
Masonry, go for alphabet before HBR since its faster at the moment and we might want to go for GLib as soon as possible

2.1450BC
found pink dot, palace in 71 at the moment
we need a better road to Kish, currently going via 2 river crossings

3.1425BC
nth

IT archer attacks EW worker cover, but loses

4 1400BC
we get another worker, we need to reduce lux, want spices, defeat archer there and cover it

5 .1375BC
found Erech near the horses

IT get FP message

6.1350BC
we need to improve our land faster, need more workers but more defense as well

7.1325BC
luckily still not so many units showing up

8.1300BC
more roading

9.1275BC
spices are up and we can reduce lux t

IT Dutch troops avoiding attacks

10.1250BC
Ur starts another settler now, Bad tibria was left on rax since there were no units anywhere near, after they complete change to walls
we need some more workers, lux is high at 30% at the moment, alphabet in 2
palace due in 42 at the moment

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy141250.jpg

we need a better road to Kish, currently going via 2 river crossings
Good catch. :thumbsup: I meant to mention this. Too many Dutch to build a decent road during my 10. Good calls, good turns.

Go Deadly Go.

Roster
1. Handy
2. ThERat
3. DeadlyNeprhons! UP :goodjob:
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger

Got it. I'll play tommorrow afternoon unless someone wants to play tonight.

EDIT- Sorry guys. It's gonna take till tommorrow.

1- not much

IT-Nothing

2-more of the same. Can't bring down alphabet research.

IT- archer attacks Kish and dies. No promo.

3-lose an archer. Lagash EW--->Worker. Alpha in. Writing in 17 at +6. We'll do deficit research later. Looks like our prebuild will be just enough. An EW is exploring the jungles to the NE of the capital for a city spot.

IT-None

4- Settler completes in Ur. Start an Enk. Lower lux to get in a turn or two of power research.

IT- Indians coming to attack

5- Lagash out Worker--->EW Writing in 7 at -1 gold with 20 in the bank. Dutch galley shows up.

IT- Wow, a large tide of enemies flows in. Thebes creates the lighthouse. We may have a huge problem with 20000 culture if theyre on the other landmass. They have 4 wonders in one city. :(

6- Palace in 31 at Sumer. This is looking good so far.

IT- Agh, the tide of units is coming in.

7- Sumer grew last turn and riots. Oops.

IT- A few attacks, no deaths for us.

8- Riot fixed. Set Ur to a worker from growth next turn. I’m moving our settler pair to found a city on the edge of the jungle.

IT- Darn. Road to Umma Thurman is pillaged. Oh well. Lux tax is taking care of it.

9- Not too much. Just reinforcing.

IT- Crap again. Another road pillaged, however inconsequential.

10- Few builds are archers now. Too many units in our territory. Found Isin that special? You need to watch Saturday night live to get it. J Had to turn down research on writing.

IT- Crap. Three attacks at Kish kill one Enk. It riots next turn. Sumer grows and has happy problems.

11- Up to somebody…

Overall not my best set of turns but I got us some workers and a few more archers.

Ok, I got it.

Preturn: Raise Lux so our Palace town is no longer unhappy. Change the Capitol to a settler. I would like to continue to grow. Writing in 2.

Early: Lose an Archer vs Archer battle. Get Writing and start Lit

Mid: Find some Iron. Found Ashak. Lose an Exploring Enkidu.

Late: See a settler going for the Iron. We will have to expand to get to it. India has Horses.

Notes: I am including two pictures. It looks like we have natural fronts here. We are up to the western front (except to the North). I would like to settle up to the Northern front in the picture quickly to grab the iron. Keep the Capitol on a Enkidu and Settler every 4 turns to do so

Edit: Apologies for the oversize image. Forgot the shrinking step.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_BC750.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_BC750a.JPG

Isin that Special. :lol:

Roster
1. Handy
2. ThERat
3. DeadlyNeprhons!
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov UP
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger

if you look at the screenies, the power of the pink dot seems to show. all those archers trying to take it out :lol:

we need that iron and hey, a MGL is up, RnG not kind to us yet.

got it, probably play tomorrow

Recon: change Erech to settler.

IT: EW kills archer 1-0. Ur settler >EW

730: build city

IT: EW kill 2 archers 3-0

710 IT: EW kill 4 archers 7-0

690 IT: EW kill 3 archers 10-0

670 IT: EW kill 4 archers. archer kills 2 more. EW dies to spear. EW kills spear. 17-1
650: archer kills horse 18-1

630: build another city

IT: EW kill 4 archers. 2 of our roads get pillaged. 22-1

610 IT: EW kills archer. EW kill 2 horse. our worker is captured by an indian horse. Lit > math. 25-1

590 IT: EW kill 3 archers. another road gets pillaged. 28-1

570 IT: Cleo's boat shows up. yet another road bites the dust. EW kills archer. Riot at Pink Dot. Cleo is bldg Glib 29-1

550: Can't make any trades with Cleo without using gpt. archer kills archer 30-1

Willie don't have no iron or horses. Only ever see archers and spears. If you uncover our horses, Willies spears beeline for them. Gandhi settled next to the iron upon which there is a fortifies EW. Gandhi has horses, but no connected iron. This is over if we don't get the Glib. expecting jumbos soon. I felt it better to lose roads than units. I didn't have enough to cover everything. Cleo's going to start moving in from the southeast, so we now have three fronts. We really need HBR. If we feel lucky I think we can plant a city to the west of the lucky candle.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_AK_550.jpg

Declare on Cleo before you start the next set.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_ak_550_BC.SAV

Got it. Play tomorrow.

Nice kill ratio. :D

Need a skip or extension, this won't get done tonight. Little Leaguers scrimmage went a lot late....

Can play tomorrow night however.

What can I say other than we got the Library and the kill ratio was 37-4.

Here's the details:

War officially begun with Cleo...

Apply the whip to get some walls in the border towns. The three stooges digging a mine on the lava flow at Erech (remaned Yerecch) will be added to Sumer of 42 to take advantage of the forests so maybe just maybe the library will come home to us.

Rearrange the specialists a little and pick up a couple of gold pieces.

Exposed archer dies but EW at Kishmyash kills a Dutch archer but a whole horde of Dutch Boys show up and they aren't carrying paint cans.

The Dutch announce they are building the Book Bindery in Groningen, the Indians in Madras, the Egytians begin the Knights Templar :eek:, in Byblos and are building the Great Library in Alexandria and the SunT Art of War in Buto, the Dutch are also building the Art of War in Amsterdam.

Kill ratio on IT 1-1

530BC

Crippled Indian horseman kills our healthy attacking archer and promotes 1-2

Healthy regular archer retreats the horse and is covered by an EW. I really want to hold those mountains.

The Dutch have seven archers in attack range at Kishmyash.

Citizens working non gold producing fields become scientists so I can raise the lux budget a hair but I still can't get rid of the clown at Kish.

Two Dutch archers die at Kish 3-2 and the Indians beat a retreat back to home.

510BC

Add a couple of workers into Sumer of 42 and peel a turn off the Library.


Four Dutch archers meet their maker at Kish 7-2.

490BC
Kill alone Dutch archer at Kish 8-2

Whip the walls at Kissarugoodbye and reinforce against the advancing Indian horsemen

One Indian archer dies and a horseman retreats at Kissuragoodbye. 9-2

Dutch spear pillages one road into Kishmyash but the workers had finished the other road.

470BC
Move some troopers around to try and cover all the bases. Skim a worker out of Badtibira Blue Dot. Maths came in and now researching HBR.

Indians lose a horseman at Kissyura 10-2 and the Dutch lose 6 archers at Kishmy 16-2.

The Egyptians start Sistine Chapel.

450BC
Kill another Indian spear at Isinthatspecial. And a Dutch spear up to no good at Ummathurman 18-2 And another Indian horseman at Pink Dot.

Indians lose 2 horseman and 2 archers at Kissyura and the first Egyptian warrior dies at Ashak (renamed Luvchak) 23-2

430BC
Move some troops around to get archers where the action is and garrisons where needed.

Indians lose two archers and two horses at Kissyura and three more horses retreat. 27-2

410BC

Kill a Dutch spear between Kishmy and Pink Dot looking for a general but no joy.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy14GrtLib.jpg

HBR comes in and we start our first horsemen at Sumer and Ur.

390BC
Kill an Indian and a Dutchman 29-2

The list from the Library:
Ceremonial Burial
Mysticism
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Map Making
Polytheism
Currency
The Republic
Monarchy
Construction
Feudalism

A Dutch spear pillages the road on the lava flow at Yerecch. :p :lol:

370BC

And kill that stupid Dutchman 30-2

Struggle with what to do next....so kill and Indian and a Dutchman. 33-2 but lose an archer and an Enk 33-4

Then the Dutch and the Indians lose 4 37-4



350BC
Watch the workers work.

I've been building a wall of EW in the mountains to the north trying to funnell the Dutch where I want them to go.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/hndy350BC.jpg

Defense in the east is mostly watching the Indian horseman retreat from the EW and the archers getting impaled.


Our first cats are up and one is ready for action in the north.

great progress, are we ready to revolt or do we need more units first

does cleo have iron? Do we need to move some units to the egyptian border towns? Finally, how to get the iron?

I think we should try and get a border expansion at Kishmyash so that Dutch units have a harder time to escape and rest, now they can just sit and rest on those mountains and step back. could we :whipped: a temple there?

Nice kill ratio :D

Roster
1. Handy
2. ThERat
3. DeadlyNeprhons!
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger UP

If no word from Slinger in 24 I'll pick it up. I'll open & look at this tomorrow, and invite you all to do the same. :)

Handy, You going to grab this? I think Barbslinger is still traveling. I haven't heard a peep from him yet.

Handy, You going to grab this? I think Barbslinger is still traveling. I haven't heard a peep from him yet.

Yeah, I'll play and post tonight.

I Played 7 then paused so we can decide what to do with the leader.


Pre Turn 350
How to get the Iron?
I guess the old fashioned way…rock throwers.
Bad luck Bengal is on a hill.
Also sending a scout to the NW of the Great Smoky Mountain just in case we have iron over there.
This will be a win to be proud of if we can grab the iron and pull this off. :D

Turn 1 330
Whip Library @ Kish to get a border expansion

Turn 2 310
Lose 3 archers while killing 6 Dutch. Archers losing to archers is not a good omen.
I’ll accumulate cast and horse for the assault on the Iron

IBT
Egypt starts Copernicus

Turn 3 290
No leader luck

IBT
Egypt paid Spain to attack us.
We learn Chivalry If India gets it we are in big trouble.

Turn 4 270
Kill a spear dropped from a boat. Elite archer offs spear but no leader.

IBT
Dutch start Knights Templar

Turn 5 250
Kill some Dutch no elites.

Turn 6 230
Two more elite wins over the Dutch.

IBT
Egypt drops 3 warriors near Kish from a caravel.

Turn 7 210 BC
Not much kill some no losses, no leaders.

IBT
We finally get a leader from an elite defender. :dance:

Notes:
I stoped since it seemed like a good time to pause to discuss what to do with the leader. Also I'm way tired from too much sun. :cool:

An EW army can cover cats & ponies so we can go and get the iron. Then it can go pillage. I lean that way.

OTOH a horse army will be a good weapon, but given the large amount of AI running around it will need significant protection.

I can finish up tomorrow after everyone chimes in, or the next player can just play 13 if they can’t stand the wait. :lol:
The leader is in Zabalam, and it’s the beginning of 190 so all units have movement.
A string of pillaging Indian spears are coming in by Bad Tiberia. That is ungood. :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/190bc.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/190bcW.JPG

I'd agree with an EW army to cover and get us the iron, then go and pillage, that's our only chance for survival, we can then form a knight army with next leader

and please play those remaining turns tomorrow, playing 13 is a little too much for me in this intense game

I like the Enk army over the horse army.

I thought about it this some more. It's hard to believe there is only 1 iron on our continent. Our horse army would last until it meets it's first sword or MI.

I'll plan to build an EW tonight unless some one posts a compelling horse argument.

and please play those remaining turns tomorrow, playing 13 is a little too much for me in this intense game
:lol: No problem. I was way tired last night and didn't want to do anything too stupid. It's bad enough when I'm rested. :)

Turn 8 190 BC
It’s getting crowded. There are 9 Indian healed horses, 2 wounded horses, and healed 3 archers in view in the east. In the west the pillage conga line is a big problem. I’ll switch a couple of builds to fill the EW army, but we really don’t have the units to protect our lands much less go for the iron at this point.

I moved the army out of Zabalam in the hope that would could pop another leader there.
Two cats are dispatched to Bad Tibira to bomb the conga line. We are short of everything. :D

Bomb what I can & kill one horse then press enter.

IBT
Kill 2 horses on defense. The rest retreated.
Dutch drop an archer from a galley at Yerecch, a new spot. I suppose KishmyAsh is now too well fortified.

Turn 9 170
Kill archer that landed at Yerecch.
Two elites win at Kish but no leader. Kish looks to be adequately defended, so new units can go toward the iron. Too bad the Indian city prevents us from poaching.
Army deletes red lined horse so we can build the HE when we want to.

IBT
Spear moved onto a road causing Pink dot to lose commerce and riot. :(

Turn 10 150
Kill 2 horses in the east.
Defeat the three spear conga line of pillagers with no losses but we redlined 4 units in the process that will need to heal.
Sorry about the riot, maybe I rely too much on mapstat to check happiness. Perhaps I should have anticipoated the spear moving to the road, but IBT riots are a tricky call.

Notes:
Usually I can tell when an AW game is definitly won or lost. I can't tell yet so I guess we still have a chance. :lol:

With some RNG luck Rat can probably raze Bengal & claim the iron. Another leader would help too. :D

There is 1 cat and 1 horse in the Zabalam metro area, and two on the way from bad to Zabalam.
Two horses finish in 2 turns. If you leave 1 horse in Kish to guard the spices, that will give you a total of 5 horses plus 3 cats to take under the army toward the iron. There is also a cat due in 3 in Lagash.
You’ll need some 1 turn EW’s from Ur to guard the iron if we take it to free up the army to pillage.
I recommend taking along a settler and placing a city on top of the iron hill. That will be one less road tile we will have to guard. There is a settler under the army, and another near Ur walking toward the east.
Good luck Rat! :D

Pics follow :bounce:

Roster
1. Handy - Out of Town 4-19 and 4-20
2. ThERat UP
3. DeadlyNeprhons!
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger UP

Question mark city is mostly there as a parking lot to accomodate cats & units to protect the roads.
Better yet - put it on the hill where the horse is.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/150bciron.JPG


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/150bcPink.JPG

Shouldn't we be waking up a curragh about now? ;)

Shouldn't we be waking up a curragh about now? ;)

Yup. Need to get the iron though. Too much to do and not enough units to do it with. :)

Have we built a dinky yet?

IIRC we are still despotism, we can't even afford a anarchy period :(

yes, ? town must be on the hill where the horse is. hope to get us some knights and hopefully we will still live at the end of my turns.

if we manage to get 2 knight armies we could revolt and maybe think of surviving this tough game. will play tonight.

I agree on settling on the hill.

About boat exploring: I don't see much point in exploring. We don't gain anything. We don't want to meet another civ. We have our hands full already. We know where the iron and horses are. It will be a while until we can start expanding.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY14_50AD.SAV)

Pre-Turn
at 0% science we run deficit, this is incredible
we have 2 settlers, enough for the iron spot
whip temple in ur, horse in Sumer, rax in kish and reduce lux to 40%

IT some attacks from India, get theology and egypt finishes sistines

1. 130BC
Egypt has education already, this is very bad
Ur grow back to 8, set it to 2turn horse

IT get a landing of 2 warriors and 1 MDI (egypt) next to kish and dutch archer next to erech

2.110BC
clean those units
defeat horse on ?- hill and spot horse in Indian land

IT egypt pike comes into view

3. 90BC
found ?-hill on that hill

IT egypt spear and pike want to enter our terrotory to pillage

4 .70BC
3 workers ready next turn to connect towns and settler to move forward
pull horse and Ew in ? hill and send EW army to pillage horse

IT Dutch unit ignore kish and head for umma thruman, we get engineering

5. 50BC
pillage the horse and indeed it was their only horse

IT :eek: I think we are in deep trouble, 1 knight, 2MDI's and 1 warrior land next to Yerrech

6. 30BC
4 cats, 1 archer and 4 horses are ready to attack Bengal next turn
embrace for attack on Yerrech

IT lose EW in Yerech but we defeat 1 MDI and 1 warrior

7. 10BC
archer defeats 2hp MDI
we lose a horse but
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy1410.jpg

IT lose archer and the horse that destroyed Bengal, get archer landing but more Egypt will show up next IT

8. 10AD
get rid of the knight finally, settle Iron town

IT oh oh 2 knights, 1 MDI, 1 pike and 1 warrior next to Sumer

9.30AD
iron is connected, we need to be bold, elite horse defeats knight
send army out to pillage

IT knight dies and 3 other units evade town

10.50AD
manage to kill the pike
and archer attack creates the badly needed 2nd army :dance:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy1450.jpg

bring MGL to Sumer and create army to be filled with knights
first knight to be ready in 2, once we have enough units for defense, we need to revolt

the east
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy1450b.jpg

egypt landings in the west
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/handy1450c.jpg

Intense, very intense. Nice job, gents.

And I'm with you, handy, I don't have any feel at all for the way this is going to go. The chesnuts keep popping out of the fire at just the right times, and we don't even have a dinghy to tip over....

the dinghy comment was a joke about the turning point of Handy12 when we woke the boat which, of course, was the turning point of the game. Although a boat to scout the extent of Cleo's lands might be nice, it wasn't a serious comment. Am I losing it or did I see 'slinger post somewhere?

I was thinking about it a little more. I think we should try and use the knight army to take out those egypt towns in the southeast. Egypt has money and razing their towns can gain us some.

We HAVE TO revolt soon, the economy is really down and once free techs are history, we are in big trouble. we simply need to survive 6-8 turns anarchy with pop loss (1 lux only). I would suggest to revolt once the army is filled with 3 knights. before revolting a few builds could be pop rushed. I tried to rush culture builds in the border towns to get expansions to keep the enemy away.
built a temple in Sumer as well since its an unhappy town.

yeah, the dingy is missing, that's why we are stuck. but agree with all of you, this can turn either way. With a few more armies, we can turn the tide and expand. This game is actually quite fun to play since every single move counts and has to be thought over.

just brainstorming - rather use the army to take down baldie. jumbos are evil..

1. Handy - Out of Town 4-19 and 4-20
2. ThERat just played
3. DeadlyNeprhons! -up :bump:
4. Greebley -on deck
5. Admiral Kutzov
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger -seen you online but no message :confused:

It's been 24, so unless Deadly posts an I got it, Greebley can pick this up when he is ready.

the dinghy comment was a joke about the turning point of Handy12 when we woke the boat which, of course, was the turning point of the game. Although a boat to scout the extent of Cleo's lands might be nice, it wasn't a serious comment.
:lol: Way to subtle for me. Thanks for the clarification, it gave me a good laugh.

Is Cleo the only one sending iron based units our way? If so we should go find the iron and pillage it. And we do need to get to Monarchy, but the lack of luxuries and markets is really going catch up to us. We'll lose a lot of free unit support when we revolt, despots get 4 free, Monarchs get 2 in towns.

I think you need 2 lux's and iron nearby to have a decent shot at AWDG & above. It was an accomplishment to get the iron, but the lack of lux really hits hard at Diety.

agree with the luxes, it might be too tough to crack this nut in the end.

and yes, correct, only egypt is sending iron units to us. seems our island is having 1 source only, the one we just claimed.

agree with the luxes, it might be too tough to crack this nut in the end.

and yes, correct, only egypt is sending iron units to us. seems our island is having 1 source only, the one we just claimed.

That's interesting. I assumed Egypt was on our island since their borders appeared below. If we are indeed the only ones with iron on our continent then our odds go up a bit. The knight army can route Indian spears and IIRC the Dutch can't build their UU without iron.

The way to win this is to get a pillaging army over to the other continent before it is too late to slow those guys tech pace down. But first we need to survive. :lol:

I think that egypt border is simply a city they plopped down on our continents since all those units landing in our territory were shipped in

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been around for awhile. I've been pretty busy with exams and such before the end of the year. What's worse, I managed to get my hands on World of Warcraft. This game is incredible and I haven't been balancing the time I put into it and Civ 3. I'm also very busy tonight and will not be able to play anything until friday afternoon. If greebley wants it before then by all means go. Looks pretty good now and knights will be a real boon. :)

EDIT Does anyone know what Egypt has in Thebes wonderwise? They got some really high culture wonders in that city and at this rate it's definitely fully improved. I can't look at it right now as I am at school. We may have a 20000 culture enemy on our hands.

I am up in 2 games. Go ahead and play first, DeadlyNephrons.

By the way, what is a Nephron? Does it have rotating fangs?

:bump: Anyone got this? Are we still alive? :D

My plate is clear now. If DeadlyNepheron hasn't given his "I got it" by tonight (eastern US), I will play it.

My plate is clear now. If DeadlyNepheron hasn't given his "I got it" by tonight (eastern US), I will play it.

No problem. :D Take your time.

Ok, I got it.

good luck Greebley, you will need it. But I have great faith in your abilities, you can pull us ahead with an army (maybe we might consider a MDI army which is faster to build and can go on town razing rampage, thus speed not essential)

Short Report:

Fought off all incursions. Wasn't too bad. 5 knights next to the iron town from a landing was the worst. We defended a lot.

There is a current Egyptian landing near Yerrech.
The Hittites MA'd against us.

Our economy is a disaster. We are at 60% gold and 40% lux and running negative gold. We have built too many units for our cities to support. Additionally, we have whipped our cities substantially requiring the very high lux. I built 4 knights before starting up building Markets that we desperately need. We have a knight army to start taking cities.

I am not sure what required all the whipping but I really hope it was absolutely necessary to stay alive as it is going to hurt us in the longer run. We cannot turn on research and have revolting towns even at 40% if we are not careful. We also need more towns for unit support, but I am hoping the knight army will help with that. If the whipping was required its not a good sign. We are leaving the era of cheap defenders real soon now.

About midway through my turn the GLib expires. No way to turn on research. We have to wait for the Markets and the whipping to expire. We should research at full when we can. We cannot afford Min research.

On the very last turn of my turn we capture Kahun (Egyptian town in the south).

Future:
1) Get Markets up and running.
2) Let whipping expire. Revolting when whipped doesnt work well.
3) Build or capture more towns (behind the front lines).
4) Revolt to Monarchy when we have enough towns to support us.

I am really hoping we can pull ourselves out of our hole soon or we will lose. I have seen this loss before: You have sufficient military to hold off the enemy, but not enough resources to research. Eventually units you cannot handle show up and thats that.

To avoid this we need to expand and improve our infra.

Another thing I would have tried to do differently in this game. I noticed early on we let our settler factory stop working. We would be doing better now if we had more towns early on. I didn't play those early turns so maybe it just wasn't possible but I think we should have tried to keep that settler factory going 100% in the beginning. We would have grabbed more of the back lands and had more unit support. Again since I didn't play it, I may be totally off base and would have lost cities if I had tried this. I did get the impression there was a lull early on though.

I will say this is a really tough variant. We may have to try several times.

I will say this is a really tough variant. We may have to try several times.

It is hard. Almost too hard to be fun. I like a challenge, but losing over 50% of the time reduces the fun quotient a little. :)

I whipped a library which seemed like a good idea at the time, but maybe it wasn't. I was trying to create space for workers to move freely. I can't recall the last time I whipped prior to this game, so it was probably a bad play. My whip may have given the wrong impression that it was a common thing to do, which it certainly is not in our series. So I'll apologize and be more judicious in the future.

Comments about the early settlers noted.

Tough map though. Jungle is not your friend in these games.

tough map with tough setting. but, still a fun challenge which teaches me a lot. by the way, I built a temple in Sumer just to be able to reduce lux. we might want to employ at least 1 scientist for a min run. what we need most is gunpowder for better defense. after that we should be able to expand a little. but those jumbos are lurking behind the jungle already. :(

We aren't talking a single whipping here. We are talking heavy whipping in at least half our cities -3 or -4 happiness in multiple cities.

Did we go for too many workers too early? IIRC, I spent lots of time covering them only to watch improvements get pillaged later.

On workers: That one is a tough call. I am really not sure what is best number. I can usually recognize too few, but given that they use population, it is non-trivial to balance between settlers and an workers. With AW you also need to figure in the unit cost too and balance offence vs defense vs workers.

I always thought it would be neat to make a learning AI and see what balance the game chooses. It would be a very hard program to write though - the interrelationship of everything is very complex.

Sanity check: DNS is up, I'm on deck?

Sanity check: DNS is up, I'm on deck?

I am a bad leader. Sorry. Deadly sounded very busy so Greebley went ahead and played. Since we have had no word from Deadly you can go ahead and grab it.

Roster
1. Handy
2. ThERat
3. DeadlyNeprhons! skipped - let us know when you are free.
4. Greebley
5. Admiral Kutzov is UP
6. Bede
7. Barbslinger

I agree with Greebley on the workers. In AWD you risk getting pillaged a little because they have so many spears. If we had expanded more it would have buffered the core some, but we may have lost a city if we pushed it too far.

We have a wide front in this game which also makes it hard.

got it tomorrow

My advice on this game is to narrow the front. The Knight army can capture cities (or raze but we then need replacements built).

Capture cities to the SE first. Then head N and use the lakes as natural borders. We unfortunately will still need two borders - one N and one W. We should try to capture to the narrowest points. This mostly means the cities directly North of us.

Obviously, this is more than one players turns, but the cities should be easy enough to take (well the SE ones should be).

Once the Markets complete we may want some pikes.

At this stage I would plan on not upgrading any units. We need to concentrate our cash on science. We need/want gunpowder and then Mil Tradition (rails).

Don't know if I'm too much of AWD virgin, but I don't think this is winnable.

The bad news is I lost a knight army keeping Ur. The good news is there's another knight army running around.

I stopped at 330 so a more experienced player could take a look and see if we have any shot. Cleo has a massive fleet that dumps 8 units on our shores every 3 turns. 7 knights and a LB just landed if IIRC. The other AI are under control. A few turns ago Cleo dropped off LB, 4MI and 3 knights. Killing that lost the first knight army.

I took Pamplona, but have been running about putting out fires. The mountain EW line is about gone. Had to change Ur and Sumer to knights to keep us in the game.

Our forces are too spread out to get any kind of offensive punch. I had to keep putting out fires.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/HNDY_14330_AD.SAV

Bede can make the call. No disgrace to lose an AWD game, they are very hard games. Harder than AWS islands IMHO. Not sure if the whipping made the difference, because that wide front was a problem.

In the AWDG games (Babylon & Aztecs) that we won we got an early army and were able to put the hurt on a nearby AI early in the game. We were unable to really hurt any of the AI here.

Let us know what you think Bede. :)

Well, I opened the save and it's pretty grim. We lost three cities on the IBT. I got two back but Egypt just dropped another 5 knights next to the capital (Ur).

Beating three AI civs off will be hard, and the hittites have finished Smith's so the other continent is way ahead in techs.

So - AWD again or AWDG or something else?

if we decide to give this on up, why don't we try Handy's first shot? It looked good to me with a corner for ourselves to start with.

Looking now.

if we decide to give this on up, why don't we try Handy's first shot? It looked good to me with a corner for ourselves to start with.

I'm up for that. Two lux and food in a corner give us a chance at success.

Throw in the towel. The Dutch are coming with longbows now and that's nasty. The Indians appear gassed and that's good. But it's the Egyptians that I really don't like.

The caravel loads of knights that keep zooming in from the south are the problem.

Oh, and the capital fell to a full load of Egyptian knights. I couldn't move enough strength in between the landing and the attack.

I got it back but I won't keep it.

Throw in the towel. The Dutch are coming with longbows now and that's nasty. The Indians appear gassed and that's good. But it's the Egyptians that I really don't like.
:cry:
well, we held well for a while. let's hope Handy's start is better for us. Do we follow the same roster? or do we actually play at all? HNDY15?

Up the Confederacy (Iroquois that is).

Well, I'm in and it sounds like Rat is in for the Iroquois. Everyone else can sound off if they want to join - and I hope they do. :)

Since you are second in the original order Rat you can just pick it up and go when you are ready. If someone drops we can probably find some replacements.

No whipping unless it's a dire emergency

So - AWD again or AWDG or something else?
hmm, if we continue your original start, it would be AWD. If we all decide to go for something else, maybe we could try AWDG on pangaea (but Gr5 is AWDG as well).

I still fancy the silent games idea a lot. But Handy is AW, not a diluted silent variant. Team's call here.


EDIT: ok heard it, though maybe Bede wants to jump in right now before I play my turns either late at night or tomorrow morning.

I still fancy the silent games idea a lot. But Handy is AW, not a diluted silent variant.


What's the silent game idea?

EDIT: ok heard it, though maybe Bede wants to jump in right now before I play my turns either late at night or tomorrow morning
Ok by me. :)

What's the silent game idea?
the idea is to never initiate conversation with AI's. and to decline any demands. this will lead to eventual AW but with some breaks once the AI asks for peace straight.
If played with the right people, this can be real good and maybe you want to look at goz8, which is my person favorite (link can be found in my SG history)

I started 2 games similar that way but we played too sloppy and lost. once I am back from holidays, I will surely start another game that way.

Take it away, Rat. I'm for the pillow shortly.

Not a big fan of the silent variant myself, prefer flat out defiant or AW.

ok, will play shortly, shall we opne another thread or continue here?

ok, will play shortly, shall we opne another thread or continue here?

I''l start a new one. It's HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2728965#post2728965)