View Full Version : A Motion: Declare War on India


Bertie
Apr 12, 2005, 10:48 AM
Citizens of Fanatannia, through discussion and polling (see this poll) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116009) we have decided to make India the object of our first war. Currently our leaders are discussing the timing of the war. I suggest we encourage them to set a date certain for commencement of our war. Thus I bring forth a motion for us to consider and act upon: I move we declare war on India before we commence our next turn of play. If a poll is required to confirm this, and that poll would need to extend beyond our next scheduled turnchat, I further move we postpone that turnchat until weíve resolved when to declare war.

Do I hear a second?

I further suggest we consider taking the following actions before we commence our next turn, and to further our first Indian war:

Trade Philosophy to India for 76 gold (they'll trade HBR too, but let's hold off)
Trade Philosophy to Spain for 2 gold & 1 worker.
Not trade Construction even though we can generate considerable gold by doing so.
Because we are on a war footing, adjust the research slider to a maximum of 10%; if micro-management conditions exist, hire a scientist & reduce research to 0%.
Switch sword production to chariots wherever feasible (as long as we don't lose accumulated shields).

Declare war on India.

Awaken and send via road up to 10 units in Bentley to the hill E of Dehli. Possibly the Commander of the Armed Forces may prefer to send one or more units towards Bombay. (In the invasion force, I suggest we include regular warrior, Blackheart Fedaykins; I'd hold vet warrior BaconKing & upgrade him to a sword next turn as soon as the workers build a road connecting Bentley, which they should do next turn.) On the next turn our swords will take Dehli, and we can use regular warrior Blackheart Fedaykins to garrison Dehli & serve as flipfodder. Swords that weren't used in the battle (and there should be several, will be able to advance on Bombay).

Upgrade vet warrior John (in Donsignia) to sword using our new stash of gold from India.

Send sword Octavian XI (in Donsignia) to the mountain NW of our horse in preparatin for advancing on Bombay.
Send SpiceRaiders (in Camelot) to the front via Roosting Tree. Tiger-MOTH will serve to protect both Provolutia & Camelot from forces from India's tundra city. As soon as we can switch Provolutia & Camelot to chariots, we can temporarily stockpile chariots in those cities as a further defense.

Again, I ask: do I hear a second?

mad-bax
Apr 12, 2005, 11:17 AM
I second both motions. :)

I would add....

Bentley is at 5spt. It can be connected to the road network and produce chariots instead of warriors. The road will also speed up horse reinforcements from the core to the Dutch war.

There is a warrior to the East which could fortify i the forest next to the Indian town it is near. We may lose him, but probably won't.

Bombay will be more difficult to take than Delhi probably since it is on a hill.

We have made all the units we will use for the Indian war. New units will be for the Dutch war. Therefore some logistics planning is necessary so that horses go north because they can catch up, and swords go to the Hague since it is close. After the Hague falls, horses can go through the Hague to get north. The infrastructure director needs to plan to road a few tiles northward.

We may lose around 6 swords give or take in capturing Delhi and Bombay. We will need 3 healing turns and a further 6 movement turns to get from Bombay to the Dutch insertion point. In those 9 turns we need to have built 6 chariots and upgraded them, and moved them to the insertion point for a force of 8 swords and 6 horses for the initial attack.

Sorry if I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs again, but the difference between success and failure is all in the detail with early war.

DaveShack
Apr 12, 2005, 12:39 PM
I support the idea of this thread being started but would like to encourage everyone to work with our illustrious Commander on the specific troop movement and utilization plans.

Are we prepared to defend, should there be any wandering units out there? I don't want to capture Delhi but lose Oxford (for example) to a lucky warrior stroke.

mad-bax
Apr 12, 2005, 02:50 PM
I hijacked the thread - sorry. I think this was meant to be a discussion aimed at prodding the appropriate official to instruct the president to declare war before the next turn. I shouldn't have turned it into a war plan discussion - even though it's infinitely more interesting :mischief:

Nobody
Apr 12, 2005, 03:23 PM
through discussion and polling (see this poll)

that poll is if we should declare war it is who should be our first victim. We need a poll like "Declare war on india, yes, no, abstain." its like if we put a poll what city should abandon Camalot, oxford, other abstain. and then we disband oxford.

Bertie
Apr 12, 2005, 04:22 PM
I support the idea of this thread being started but would like to encourage everyone to work with our illustrious Commander on the specific troop movement and utilization plans.

DaveShack,

I donít mean at all to step on the Commanderís toes; and I certainly hope the Commander doesnít read my post in that light. This is a topic that requires coordinated discussion by several our of our leaders, and I started this thread to facilitate and motivate that discussion. I will certainly notify the leaders that are stakeholders in this discussion of the existence of this thread.

I did in fact suggest some specific troop movements in the initial post in this thread, authorization of which certainly fall under the purview of the Military Commander. I did so for three reasons. First, to demonstrate how achievable it would be to begin the war on the interturn before we start the next play turn. Second, the inspiration for these movements was taken from the Military Commanderís own thread on his plans for the Indian war; I simply include them here (with a few refinements of my own) so we can avoid flipping through multiple threads in our discussion. Third, because it is my duty and right as a citizen to make suggestions that would help lead us towards achieving the goals we have set ourselves. I believe such discussion is relevant to this thread.

Nobody, although I believe that the poll I cite Ė and numerous threads discussing the desirability of attacking India soon Ė do in fact demonstrate the explicit Will of the People in this matter, I certainly am open to not only repolling whether we should attack India, but also the specific time we should do so. If we decide this is necessary I request that we postpone the next-scheduled play turn so that we can resolve this in a deliberate manner. My hope is that this thread will prompt the appropriate officials to address and resolve the question of when to attack India so that such polling isnít necessary. I have no desire to delay the play of the game. However, I believe this issue is so important that we must decide it before we proceed.

CivGeneral
Apr 12, 2005, 09:06 PM
I support the idea of this thread being started but would like to encourage everyone to work with our illustrious Commander on the specific troop movement and utilization plans.

I have already drawn up battle plans regarding the war in India here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2672585&postcount=1).

A small band of swords should be able to take care of the smaller cities of Karachi, Lahore, and Kolhapur.

Nobody
Apr 12, 2005, 11:38 PM
i like your plan cg, it takes care of all them citys, but what about a name?

CivGeneral
Apr 12, 2005, 11:59 PM
i like your plan cg, it takes care of all them citys, but what about a name?
Operation Overloard and Enduring Freedon are already taken in RL :p. I was thinking of calling it Operation Smite Gandi

Nobody
Apr 13, 2005, 03:42 AM
i previously put foward Operation Cow Cutter. Oh Commander make sure Johan comes home, he has bad kidneys and i don't know how much combat he can take (my i say a good idea would be to send pms to people when there unit dies like they do in war)

zyxy
Apr 13, 2005, 04:12 AM
I definitely n-th the first motion regarding postponing the turnchat. We need to declare now, cannot afford to wait 10 more turns. There is a lot of unclarity right now as to what should be done, and there is no mandate from the people on a specific DoW. Another reason is that there should be a poll on the trade instructions: I doesn't look like they reflect the majority opinion.


Concerning the second motion: I n-th with the following qualification:
there is quite a bit of light between the war plans of the external consul and the military commander. I would really prefer to go to war based on one plan. I like the limited plan better because it will give us time to deal with the dutch.

On a side note, I am (still) not convinced we should not trade with construction. If the majority thinks otherwise (and that seems to be the case), then I can live with that part of the motion.

Bertie
Apr 13, 2005, 10:34 AM
there is quite a bit of light between the war plans of the external consul and the military commander.


There is an apparent discrepancy between the Military Commanderís battle plans for the first Indian War and the External Consulís strategy; but I donít think this is serious or even a real discrepancy. It appears to me that the Military Commander has presented a plan that he would use should the External Consul formulate a strategy that we will declare war on the Indians and eliminate them. Military Commanders must make plans for many contingencies, and I assume that is what he has done.

Of course the External Consulís strategy is not to eliminate India at this point. Rather, his strategy is to secure the iron (which requires taking Dehli); secure the silks (which requires taking Bombay); and then stop to regroup so we can attack the Dutch. This last step of course also means we negotiate peace with the Indians (hopefully acquiring one or two cities plus gold in our treaty).

The first step of the Military Commanderís plan fits perfectly with the objective of taking Dehli. The Military Commander also planned to make Bombay a priority target; however he did also plan to send troops north to attack and capture the rest of the Indian cities. Again, I believe he was planning for every contingency. I assume now that the External Consul has declared his strategic objectives for the first Indian war Ė capture Dehli and Bombay, then prepare to move on the Netherlandís Ė that the Military Commander will update his strategy. My suggested troop movements in the initial post of this thread was my suggestion of how the Military Commander might want to adapt his original plan to the current circumstances.

BTW zyxy, I'm beginning to agree with you on your position on trading Construction. This will probably be traded around quite soon; and although we will accelerate the research rate if we trade it now, in 5 turns it probably won't make any difference. At least we'd get some gold from trading it.

zyxy
Apr 13, 2005, 11:38 AM
Bertie,

Thanks for the explanation. I did not realize it was a "what-if" plan. I'll readily admit that I am still quite confused about who's in charge of what in this game :crazyeye:

I am of course happy that you are seeing the pro's of trading construction -- and it's not only gold, but hopefully a lot of bloodied noses too. Their noses, that is :mischief:
Unfortunately it will matter little, as there is no time anymore to poll the trade options :(

CivGeneral
Apr 13, 2005, 04:08 PM
There is an apparent discrepancy between the Military Commanderís battle plans for the first Indian War and the External Consulís strategy; but I donít think this is serious or even a real discrepancy. It appears to me that the Military Commander has presented a plan that he would use should the External Consul formulate a strategy that we will declare war on the Indians and eliminate them. Military Commanders must make plans for many contingencies, and I assume that is what he has done.


I have recently hearing complaints from the Department of External Affairs that my department is oversteping the objectives. The plans that I have drawn up (The red arrows are primary and green arrows are secondary/less important) goes along with the objectives (Though as a member of the Traditionalist party, dont beleve that the powers of developing objectives should be striped but my feelings are strongly expressed in the Traditionalists Citizens Group). Infact, I have made plans for any contingencies that would happen in the course of the war. If the green arrows are offending to the Department of External Affairs, then I have to place in emphasis and highlight and underline three times that they are (the green arrows) secondary routes, not primary. I oftenly dont intend to step on anyone's toes, I try not to. Often times when someone feels that their toes are being steped on, its often times the result of miscommunications. Agsin I shall point out, the red arrows are primary routes while the green arrows are secondary routes, if they dont accept the terms for peace

Of course the External Consulís strategy is not to eliminate India at this point. Rather, his strategy is to secure the iron (which requires taking Dehli); secure the silks (which requires taking Bombay); and then stop to regroup so we can attack the Dutch. This last step of course also means we negotiate peace with the Indians (hopefully acquiring one or two cities plus gold in our treaty).

The first step of the Military Commanderís plan fits perfectly with the objective of taking Dehli. The Military Commander also planned to make Bombay a priority target; however he did also plan to send troops north to attack and capture the rest of the Indian cities. Again, I believe he was planning for every contingency. I assume now that the External Consul has declared his strategic objectives for the first Indian war Ė capture Dehli and Bombay, then prepare to move on the Netherlandís Ė that the Military Commander will update his strategy.

I would like to thank you personaly, Bertie, for defending my plans. Yes, the Dutch War Plans will be updated after the war in India.

Nobody
Apr 13, 2005, 05:03 PM
If the war goes according to plan and we take the 2 important citys, and then we are able to make peace. Will we stop the chat and poll what options we want for peace? or is the external department decreeing this. because if we take Delhi and Bombay but the Indians won't hand over a few more citys, i say carry on the war.

YNCS
Apr 13, 2005, 06:32 PM
Invade the peacemongering Indians! Death to Ghandi! Blood! Blood! Blood! Let's bring Republicracy to India and force them to accept it!

I think we should declare war on India at the beginning of the next turnchat.

greekguy
Apr 13, 2005, 06:59 PM
when we attack the indians, we must take all their core citys. i think that it is 6 of them. we can leave the other 3 cities (Karachi, Lahore, Kohapur) for later. also, i think that the Indian homeland should become our 2nd province. :mischief:

Furiey
Apr 13, 2005, 07:05 PM
We must not be sidetracked at this time to obliterate the Indians - we must weaken them, secure the Iron, take the Silks and then move on to the main event, the Dutch, before they get Swiss Mercs. We can then mop up the rest of India at our leisure.

CivGeneral
Apr 13, 2005, 07:05 PM
Ladies and Gentelment,

I have taken into consideration and accepting the External Affair's objectives and modified my map to meet their requierments. I do wish to apologise to the External Affairs personaly for blaming them for beurocracy since I am not used to having the FA's compose objectives.

With out further adue (spelling?),
Here is the newest map. Mind you that the red arrows are primary routes (meets the EA's requierments) and the green arrows are secondary routes (To be determaned on the conditions if we need to use them)

mad-bax
Apr 14, 2005, 01:01 AM
If the war goes according to plan and we take the 2 important citys, and then we are able to make peace. Will we stop the chat and poll what options we want for peace? or is the external department decreeing this. because if we take Delhi and Bombay but the Indians won't hand over a few more citys, i say carry on the war.

My intention is to pause the turnchat after taking Bombay. We can then see if India will give peace and what we can get out of the deal. We can evaluate flip risks and such, and look at how close the Dutch are to Feudalism. All this can be discussed, and then the options can be polled. I have an opinion, but I am also determined to implement the will of the people, even if I disagree.