Parameters:
Patch: 1.22 C3C
Level: Demigod
Variant: Always War
Civilization: TBD
Water: 60%
Map Type: Continents
Size:Standard
Age: Random
Temperature: Random
Climate: Random
Barbarians: Sedentary
Rivals: Random
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: All are enabled.
Culturally linked starts: OFF
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On
Requirement to play: At least one win in an AWE game.

I chose Persia since I haven't tried them recently. This was actually the first start I got. It looked strong enough to go for.


I played the first 20 turns to make sure it wasn't insta-death.

We have Barracks, a Regular Warrior, and Vet Spear.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_BC3000.JPG

--------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to try playing with the following restriction on pillaging:

Pillaging Restriction: Basically no pillaging by armies is allowed farther than 5 squares from our border. Land units cannot bypass a city without destroying it first. Sea units can go anywhere and drop off land units on any coast. The land units must then destroy the coastal cities before passing them either inland or along the coast (though they can bypass the coastal city by getting back on the boat). The idea here is to lessen the AI weakness of ignoring armies completely and allowing the human massive pillaging freedom. If the AI didn't have this weakness, you could pillage coastal resources by using boats, but inland resources would require fighting your way there.

If the enemy builds cities between a stack and our front lines, the stack can bypass the new city to head home or head deeper into enemy territory provided that they don't bypass any cities without capturing/razing).

Always War Rules:
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no turn based trade (such as GPT) allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count.

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We however cannot then disband the city just founded city on the same turn. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves.

Optionally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of the first round trading. It never really helps much and seems a bit artificial to be able to trade the first round. We can dicuss this more or play the more standard rules.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 48 to play. If you need a one or two day extension, then mention this before the 48 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 96 hours total, switch places or ask for a skip. A player plays 10 turns normally, but can choose to play 5 instead if their time is limited or when the turns get longer during the latter part of the game.


Roster:

Greebley
Handy900
ThERat
Open
Open
Open

I will post the save when we have enough players to start.

Optionally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of the first round trading. It never really helps much and seems a bit artificial to be able to trade the first round. We can dicuss this more or play the more standard rules.

I always felt it was strange to be friendly for 2 minutes with the civ, then declare war. This is why I took this away in the LK series.

Totally agree. What do ppl think? Shall we ditch the trading? I think one can win without it.

Totally agree. What do ppl think? Shall we ditch the trading? I think one can win without it.

Okay by me. I can't play tonight, but probably can get this tomorrow. I've not played Persia in a long time.

EDIT: Greebley - you can place me wherever in the roster you want. :D

Edit again land and mini map look pretty good. Hope there is a lux close by under the fog.

checking in, agree with no trades ever.

btw, i could play today (s'pore it's sunday noon now)

I guess I'll join, despite what I said in the other thread. I should be able to find the time for one more game.

Welcome Bed_head :) Note that you can choose between 5 or 10 turns.

I would like to wait one more day to see if we can get a fifth. I prefer 5 if we can get it.

Greebley, thanks for the invitation. I'd be glad to join.

The more consistent no-trades policy is fine with me.

Welcome NP :) I am glad you could join us. It looks like we are ready to start. If someone else wants to play then speak up. 6 players is also fine.

The order is as best I remember the order of joining.

Greebley
Handy900 -Up
ThERat - On Deck
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
Open

Here is the save.

We will go with the no trade rule.

Greebley, thanks for the invitation. I'd be glad to join.

The more consistent no-trades policy is fine with me.

:bounce: Yeah! N Pike is in the house.

And bed_head just let us know if you need a skip.

GOT IT

Pre turn
Can’t decide if we should switch to spear, or send the settler out with the lone spear we have and build a new one after that. I’ll stay with the settler and hope we don’t get surprised by an early visit from a near by neighbor.

Turn 1 2950
Mine done start road.

Turn 2 2900
-
Turn 3 2850
Settler – Spear (4)
Settler moving to the hill on the River N N NE of the capital.

Turn 4 2800
-
Turn 5 2750
-
Turn 6 2710
River Hills founded and walls started. I’m hoping this walled city will shield our capital and allow us to get a good core down. There is no river crossing between the capital and River Hills.

IBT
Capital Spear – spear due in 3. We are size 5 and grow in 4.

Turn 7 2670
-

Turn 8 2630
-

Turn 9 2590
-

IBT
Spear - Settler

Turn 10 2550
Please feel free to switch the build, but maybe we can get away with an unguarded city to the south.
A granary would not be a bad build either. I thought about starting one, but decided a second city was better for the unit support.
Dot map with ideas below.
I don’t like to build next to the Smokey Mountains.
What are the barbs set to? Sedentary. Naked settler to the south is definitly a possibility.

Substitute Gold Hill in the south for the red dot is a possibility since it will pull in a BG. But leaving Red Dot where it is allows for a city SW of the gold hill to be on the coast and grab the BG. Red Dot is probably better.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR05_DOT.JPG

got it, tonight, think settling red dot first is a good choice. so far no contacts? what's the tech situation like? still doing WC?

got it, tonight, think settling red dot first is a good choice. so far no contacts? what's the tech situation like? still doing WC?

No contacts. WC in 9 @ +0gpt. Lux is 30% Science is 60%.

I think red would be okay. Purple pulls in a BG, but if the Ai shows up, we'll wish we didn't have two cities to defend with no roads to use to reinforce them. Also purple is across a river.

One more thing. If you settle red dot we can chop a granary since the chop would go still to the capital. Settle blue and the chop goes to the blue dot.

If we can get some quick cities down it will help our economy a good bit.

Let's hope there is iron in those hills. :)

What's up next tech wise? Alpha or IW?

Looks good Handy. Red dot seems best given we don't have a lot of defenders yet.

I think I would go for Iron Working next and explore a little if we don't see iron (check all the lands closest to us).

Greebley
Handy900 - Played
ThERat - Up
Bead_head7 - On Deck
Northern Pike

(there is room for another is someone wants to join).

I was also thinking of IW next. given the magic, iron might just hide under that 'pink' dot. hope I am right.

(There is room for another is someone wants to join).

Well since you keep asking, I will finally give in and try AWD. As for the next city I say red dot. This position is an AW farmer's gambit as the moment. Red dot is the least likely to contact another civ. We need to be very paranoid until we get more cities in military mode.

I would really like a 2nd worker after the settler. We need to have our cities connected.



Now have we built any forges yet? ;) :) :lol:
Oops, still stuck in RaR mode. :crazyeye:

given this Team, is it possible to lose? well, I might just be the weak link here :crazyeye:

anyway agree with LK settler -> red dot, worker next, then spear

I will finally give in and try AWD.

Welcome aboard! :bounce:

Is this AWD or DG? I should know since I already played, but I really didn't pay attention when I opened the save. :crazyeye:

given this Team, is it possible to lose? well, I might just be the weak link here I'm always the weakest link. It's my job and you can't have it.

Agree on the workers. We need more.

I'm always the weakest link. It's my job and you can't have it. :lol: ok ok

Red Dot is a very limited site which looks unlikely to support anything better than a fishing village. We should found on it eventually, but a city without BG seems a waste of our settlers right now. The real prize to the south is the site SW of the gold hill noted by Handy, and I'd rather settle towards it by way of Blue Dot.

@NP - I am worried about contacts. Red dot has a lot lower odds then blue dot. A contact right know could very well equal death. I prefer a weak city that is safe.

A mostly worthless city that will expand the area we need to defend, only marginally, without adding much to the empire's defense/development.

Or a fairly productive spot that expands the area we need to defend to a great degree, and also adds to the likelihood that we will need to defend ourselves, though it may add something to our empire.

If the second paragraph was a description of the orange placement, I would say go for red. But I would say that the likelihood that a wandering warrior that ran into the blue dot city would probably run into Persepolis shortly after. In this case, I do think that the gained production of blue outweighs the risk, so I would opt for blue dot with the next settler.

Welcome Lee. It should be Demigod. Hope that is ok. The early settler in the previous game made it too strong for me to feel I won a "real" Demigod game.

Greebley
Handy900 - Played
ThERat - Up
Bead_head7 - On Deck
Northern Pike
LKendter

@NP - I am worried about contacts. Red dot has a lot lower odds then blue dot. A contact right know could very well equal death. I prefer a weak city that is safe.

Sure, I know you've got a good rationale. I'd just accept the risk in this particular case, because a city on Red Dot would take so long to help us. And given our total range of choices, Blue Dot is not a wild gamble--it's just the second-safest spot rather than the safest.

Since we are considering the second safest location, how about the orange dot? The big problem with Blue are all those hills the AI can camp on and attack from. We eventually need to get another city beyod that as a buffer. Otherwise defending Blue be expensive.

Although orange is in some fog, there is more flat land around it and it can share BG with the capital. But then the plan of, taking blue followed by the hill SW of the gold is delayed that much longer.

Red is definitly safest and okay for an empty city for a few turns since we could build and send a spear over in a few turns.

With all that said, I'm glad I don't have to decide. If we lose we can blame whoever plays next for making the wrong call. :lol:

Rat, it's official, check the message under my avatar. :)

well too late, played my turns already

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5_2150BC.sav)

Pre-Turn
we need 1 more worker, agreed
increase science so get WC in 8 at -1gpt

1. 2510BC
Persepolis grows, increase science, WC still in 6

2.2470BC
zzzz

3.2430BC
nth

Persepolis, settler -> worker

4 .2390BC
re-adjust science and lux and WC in 2

5. 2350BC
Persepolis at 5, lux up, science down

IT we get WC, IW next
Persepolis worker -> spear
River Hills walls -> worker

6. 2310BC
Arbela on blue spot founded, starts walls, IW now in 21

7. 2270BC
nth

8. 2230BC
zzzz

IT Persepolis spear -> granary
River Hills worker -> rax

9.2190BC
swap cow for a turn to speed growth in Arbela, Persepolis still growing in 1

10.2150BC
worker starts chopping forest to speed up rax in River hill
IW still in 19, will speed up once we grow

once we have the granary up, River hills can produce spears while persepolis is settler factory
still no contacts yet, we might want to send our warrior out for some exploration of the surrounding
I'd suggest to settle orange spot next

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr52150.jpg

might want to send our warrior out for some exploration of the surrounding
I'd suggest to settle orange spot next.

I'm for that. We need to find a luxury.

actually since we have no contact yet, I have a feeling there won't be anyone to the near west, maybe to the north and northeast (looking at the minimap location as well). I would send to warrior to climb that orange hill to check things out

still no contacts yet, we might want to send our warrior out for some exploration of the surrounding

I have explored before and found 2 civs at once and died. If planning to explore I would limit it to enough knowledge to plan the next ring of cities. Anything beyond that and IMO the risk exceeds the payout. We still have NO cities building troops at this point - first contact is a really bad thing.

...If planning to explore I would limit it to enough knowledge to plan the next ring of cities. Anything beyond that and IMO the risk exceeds the payout.

I agree with the above, and the SW is probably the safest place to explore.

Usually we have contact by now. Perhaps the AI base is several tiles away from us as it was in the last game.

I also concur. Exploration should be done judiciously and not too far. Knowing a bit more of the world so we can find iron and know what our next city sites are like makes sense. We should be careful though that we have enough military to handle contact. If that is in doubt, then I think putting off exploration until we are more secure makes sense.

Exploring in the direction we won't meet anyone (SW) also makes sense if our military is in doubt.

I too have met two civs on the same turn.

Greebley
Handy900
ThERat - Played
Bead_head7 - Up
Northern Pike - On Deck
LKendter

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_1750BC.SAV

2150 BC (0) - Switch Persepolis to 5fpt from 4fpt. Won't slow granary build, and gets us a little bigger in the capital.

1910 BC (6) - Granary finishes, and warrior sets out to exploring. I wanted the granary to be done just in case.

I let Persepolis get to size 7, which is a bit of a waste of food since it is building a settler. With the granary build, it got too big not to get to size 7 without building more workers than we currently need (we already have four workers with three cities, as an industrious civ).

If we irrigate the game, and steal the bonus grass from River Hills every fourth turn, we have a four-turn warrior/settler factory in the capital. I strongly suggest we do this. It may be a bit complicated to get going without undue waste and keeping ourselves well defended, but in my opinion is worth it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_1750BC.jpg

Those spices are good to see.

Got it.

One other risk with purple dot is that we will pop the hut. If we get barbs we have NO units to hunt them down, and this could break the settler factory. The LK series AWE loss as China was due to being food poor and bad expansion.
I want to delay purple dot until we have some offensive military to hut down the barbs.

I think the odds of contact are from the north and east. Based on this I want to expand toward the southwest. I think the proposed grey and green dots will give use another 2 city without much more contact risk. I think we need at least 2 more rounds of play and military on the way to keep expanded.

While the settler factory is great for expansion in AW, it makes the military situation more fragile in the early game.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-729.jpg

nice to see spices, agree. Guess we settle orange next and turn River Hills into a spear pump while Persepolis pumps settlers. Could we have a bigger screen of the surrounding to decide on a dot map. Maybe after NP's turns

edit: agree with LK's spot's but would include orange first to secure the lux

edit: agree with LK's spot's but would include orange first to secure the lux
I look through the theards - I don't see any dot map that includes getting the spices.

Handy's map has a orange dot next to spices on a hill. IMO a good spot to settle first

If you look at Bed_head's picture it looks like there are spices in the forest one square north of Handy's orange dot.

We couldn't see it until Bed_head's turn though.

I look through the theards - I don't see any dot map that includes getting the spices.

Orange gets the spices. And the dots you added in your map look good to me. :goodjob:
I went ahead & combined the 2 dot maps below. Too lazy :mischief: to open the save & use a map with the new explored territory.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR05_DOT2.JPG

I also agree to settle purple later. It is across a river and pop the hut. Two good reasons to wait.

BTW - good turns as usual by Bed and Rat. :D

:hmm: Did we get a settler out after the granary? I guess NP will tell us.

I now see the orange dot. The orange blended into the hill too much for me.
I added it to my dot map as black dot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-729A.jpg

You can NOT get barbs from a hut if you settle a city next to it.

edit: Here is the source to back it up. Link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=93244).


[Chances of] Barbarians:
--Player must not have Expansionist trait.
--There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius.
--The player must have at least 1 city.
--The player must have at least 1 military unit.
--The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.

edit2: Crosspost with bed_head7, always nice to have a backup. :goodjob:

Actually, when the hut is within a city's 1 tile radius, the hut cannot give barbs, so the hut could actually help us out. Who knows, we might even get a tech. However, the spot is not great. I would prefer to be next to the volcano (which, I forgot to mention, erupted during my turns, but there is no visible pollution) and the coast, though that opens up the possibility of a city burned in lava.

The benefit of having a warrior/settler factory and having the rest focus on military is that we can ship out the spearmen in the core with settlers as we spread and leave warriors for MP behind the lines. It also should mean faster overall expansion than if we built settlers from anywhere but Persepolis.

You can NOT get barbs from a hut if you settle a city next to it.



Thanks Ginger. :goodjob:

And Bed - aren't you supposed to be studying. :lol:

Yeah, mom. Sorry.

1500 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-1500BC.SAV)

1725 (1): I agree with BH that getting Persepolis onto a four-turn warrior/settler cycle is worth a little trouble, so I send a worker to start irrigating its game tile.


1700 (2): Persepolis settler --> warrior, River Hills barracks --> spearman (later switched to Immortal).


1675 (3): Persepolis warrior --> settler.


1650 (4): We found Shiraz southwest of the gold hill.


1625 (5): Zzzz....


1600 (6): We discover Iron Working, and we have one iron. It's underneath River Hills, which is perhaps too much of a good thing, since now we can't build warriors to upgrade to Immortals. :rolleyes: At least we should be able to manage Persepolis more flexibly with the game tile irrigated.

Persepolis settler --> spearman, Arbela barracks --> Immortal.


1575 (7): Although I'm not exploring, a worker move reveals apparent coastline four squares roughly northwest of River Hills. It's possible that we're on a fat peninsula, connected to the rest of our continent only in the northeast.


1550 (8): Persepolis spearman --> settler.


1525 (9): We found Gordium in the southwest. It has three BG, one shared with Arbela.

Persepolis's second cultural expansion disturbs three barbs from the nearby goodie hut. Our developed tiles in the area are protected.


1500 (10): No contacts yet. This is either an excellent start, or a wretched one because we're alone on an island.

I've started researching Alphabet, for the usual AW reason (catapults). But since there are various valid tech choices at this point, and we haven't had any discussion, I've just been running research at 10% and letting a little gold accumulate. So we can switch to anything; but once we've made a decision, we should raise the science rate.

Our next city should claim the nearby spices. If I'm right about how the coastline runs, that direction should be quite safe.

Should we start pre-building the Great Library? And on a closely related point, do we consider it exploitative to keep the pre-build city right below 300 shields until we get Literature by putting it into disorder? Bed Head's view on this I know already. ;)

Persepolis can produce a settler and an Immortal in six turns, a settler and a spearman in five turns, or just a settler in four turns, with more shared tiles made available to other cities in the latter case.

It's underneath River Hills, which is perhaps too much of a good thing, since now we can't build warriors to upgrade to Immortals. At least we should be able to manage Persepolis more flexibly with the game tile irrigated.

:lol:

How lucky for us!

[I forgot to mention this during my turns. Can we please have workers road tiles separately, and then stack them for mining, except in absolute emergencies? Roading two tiles when stacked takes four turns for us, roading two tiles separately takes three turns.

I feel doing what you suggested concerning disorder, NP, would be a little less exploitative in this case, since we at least would probably lose barracks and walls in whichever city we choose. Of course, if the city doesn't have any buildings, I would again feel that it is the sort of exploit we definitely should not use.]

Our peaceful realm:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-1500BC.JPG

good progress but what about our orange spot?

and research up to max immediately, that's most crucial! those few shillings won't help us with anything IMHO.

expand as long as we can, I would go for 5 turn settler spear since we need spears for all those new towns anyway

edit: would chose Arbela for GLib prebuild, since it has shield potential and is further away from the barbaric north :lol:

good progress but what about our orange spot?

We'll be able to settle it in three turns. I preferred to found two safer, better cities (luxuries aside) first.

I agree that Arbela would be a good pre-build city.

Signed up:
Greebley (on deck)
Handy900
ThERat
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter (currently playing)

Was just going to print the turn order, but it already done. Thanks.

It sounds like we needed to build the Purple dot to avoid barbs instead of not building it. Kind of Ironic.

I am hoping we are not alone. The biggest bummer would the waste of our UU if we can't get to the AI quick enough.

I do think we need to start the GLib now. River Hills looks best to me since it can grow past size 6 and is not the capitol. In the future, it could switch to the Forbidden Palace if the GLib doesn't work out (assuming we had enough towns of course). This is a good reason to get the 10 towns we need quickly (I think it is 10 for a standard map?).

I like 4 turn settlers. The primary reason is that we have no contact. I think we can still build military fast enough. We don't need quite the military we would with contact. Obviously, we do need enough to handle contact if we get it - if we keep border cities stocked we should be ok there. If we have immortals, I think we can handle any invasion.

Even if we lost a city we still will be ahead with 4 turn settlers in terms of city count. I think we should be able to react fast enough for that to not happen if the other towns (not GLib or Capitol) stay on units.

Was just going to print the turn order, but it already done. Thanks.
I do think we need to start the GLib now. River Hills looks best to me since it can grow past size 6 and is not the capitol. In the future, it could switch to the Forbidden Palace if the GLib doesn't work out (assuming we had enough towns of course). This is a good reason to get the 10 towns we need quickly (I think it is 10 for a standard map?).


If we select River Hills we should chop a quick temple (do we have CB?) to expand the borders. Otherwise AI attackers will reduce the workable tiles. We will also want to get to the mountains a see what's out there. A buffer city to keep AI away from River Hills would be nice if we can pull it off. Baiting the AI away from River Hills with a lightly defended city may be a good idea.

As the turns go by with no contact, our citizens are starting to speak with a noticable Australian accent. I think we are on an island. :(

I took a look at the game. Before I even start playing I have a few things I don't understand.

1) Why aren't we doing full research? Gold is all but worthless in AW. The odds getting the GL IMO are 0% without maximum research to literature.

2) Arbela claims 3 bonus grassland tiles, followed by 2 hills. If the forest chop reveals another bonus grassland it will be even stronger. River Hills has one lousy bonus grassland tile to start. Once we build the spice city Arbela will be all but immune to AI attack. The odds of a tile being stepped on are very low. I think River Hills needs to be larger then we can support at maximum luxury tax to equal this.

3) Why did be build Gordium on a bonus grassland? It is also 4 tiles from Shiraz defeating the AW city connection rule. I think the best placement in the west is in the next post. This would plan on building yellow dot 2 from Gordium with the plan to abandon Gordium long term. I would swap Gordium to worker.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-730.jpg

I took a look at the game. Before I even start playing I have a few things I don't understand.

1) Why aren't we doing full research? Gold is all but worthless in AW. The odds getting the GL IMO are 0% without maximum research to literature.


NP explained it here:

I've started researching Alphabet, for the usual AW reason (catapults). But since there are various valid tech choices at this point, and we haven't had any discussion, I've just been running research at 10% and letting a little gold accumulate. So we can switch to anything; but once we've made a decision, we should raise the science rate.

3) Why did be build Gordium on a bonus grassland? It is also 4 tiles from Shiraz defeating the AW city connection rule. I think the best placement in the west is in the next post. This would plan on building yellow dot 2 from Gordium with the plan to abandon Gordium long term. I would swap Gordium to worker.

Gordium is on BG because the city site was forest when I founded it, and I had no way of knowing. And while it's four tiles from Shiraz it's only three from Arbela, with the road already built. Finally, unless the apparent geography is deceptive we aren't going to be threatened in that area anyway. I don't see a problem here.

Microbe, thanks for quoting my explanation of the tech rate before I had to. I'll just add that while gold may be useless for most purposes in AW, it does allow research at a deficit.

Gordium is on BG because the city site was forest when I founded it, and I had no way of knowing. I don't see a problem here.

That explains the bonus grassland situation. I agree there was nothing you could do.

This still doesn't talk about how we want to place cities over there. I really hate to do two-tile apart spacing for cities that will be in the core.

I would move the yellow dot N onto the hill and the black dot NE off the hill but still next to the spices (or N onto the spices to protect them from pillaging - but this is 4 from the capitol). Since we don't have contact the black dot may never be front line and so sacrificing the hill isnt too bad.

I would move the yellow dot N onto the hill and the black dot NE off the hill but still next to the spices (or N onto the spices to protect them from pillaging - but this is 4 from the capitol). Since we don't have contact the black dot may never be front line and so sacrificing the hill isnt too bad.

I like the yellow dot one tile N as suggested above, but I like the black dot on the hill slightly better than on the spices to keep it 2 from the capital. But I can live with it either way. :)

NE is the same distance from the capitol. The problem with the hill is that if the yellow dot is moved the black one is too close for my tastes. Thats one problem with moving one city. You get a cascade effect if you are going for 3 spacing. Since the city is now placed, I think moving Yellow and black makes the most sense.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-1250BC.zip


1500 BC
Since there was no discussion on the tech pace, I crank science to the max for Alphabet.

I can tell play styles are different at times. I prefer to always road tiles first with AW. This is so it is easier for the workers to escape if needed.
(IT) One of the barbarians commits suicide for us.


1475 BC
Our first immortal action is to kill a barbarian.


1400 BC
Bactra is formed to claim our first luxury.


1375 BC
Our first immortal goes elite taking care of the last barbarian.


1325 BC
We aren't alone.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-755.jpg

(IT) Babylon completes the Pyramids.


1300 BC
This is where Persia sucks. You knew this would happen in despotism.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-756.jpg

(IT) The Zulu are building Temple of Artemis.


1250 BC
We shouldn't have complained about lack of contacts.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-757.jpg

==========================

Summary:
We need to make the decision on the Great Library pre-build soon.

The next couple rounds of turns will be very ugly as we seen 2 stacks of initial units heading our way.


Signed up:
Greebley (currently playing)
Handy900 (on deck)
ThERat
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter

Oh boy! :bounce: Some targets. I hope they didn't come from a boat.

Let's hope the GA to get the Glib works out okay for us.

Greebely - start the Big Library.

EDITDot map looks good to me.

This is my newest dot-map proposal.
The settler is ready to found white dot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-758.jpg

Oh boy! :bounce: some targets. I hope they didn't come from a boat.

Well you feelings are a lot different then mine. I hate back to back contacts in AW. I feels these are the more appropriate smilies.
:eek: :ack: :aargh:

Well you feelings are a lot different then mine. I hate back to back contacts in AW. I feels these are the more appropriate smilies.
:eek: :ack: :aargh:

I'm always worried when the AI has too long to expand in peace. Just my play style I guess since I am of the "get them in war mode" philosophy, but I know that Greebley remains unconvinced that this is a good idea.

I am surprised they took so long to find us, and I'm still a little worried about being on an island.

This is a good looking piece of land (if it's not an island) since we have a relatively narrow front to defend.

hey, LK, this is AW, so we should be happy to have some hot fighting. this was quiet enough for too long.

we should go maths - writing - literature and start a prebuild in Arbela. It's safe and in no danger. River Hills looks like a front town to me, no good for the GL.

hey, LK, this is AW, so we should be happy to have some hot fighting. this was quiet enough for too long.
I expect fighting in AW. I hate to get hit with the initial troops rush from two civs at the same time.

Just my play style I guess since I am of the "get them in war mode" philosophy, but I know that Greebley remains unconvinced that this is a good idea.
I side with Greebley on this one. Some of my easiest AW wins were where one side was crippled by the time I met another. At DG we need every possible break.


I am surprised they took so long to find us, and I'm still a little worried about being on an island.
They both appear in the northern mountains. I would be shocked if this is an island.

I would have liked to have already started a GLib Prebuild. Not getting the GLib makes Demigod very difficult.

Double contact so close together will be trouble. We will get hit with both initial barrages of troops at the same time.

I would be very suprised if we were on an island. I wonder if the two civs showed up because of the barbarians. Barbs would send them in our direction and even if we killed the Barbs, the AI would continue to explore I think. In fact, I suspect the Barb setting influences AW a good bit. Sedentary or no Barbs could mean later contact.

I got it.

Some of my easiest AW wins were where one side was crippled by the time I met another. At DG we need every possible break.


I agree we need some breaks. An early army for our attackers would be an excellent break.

The easy games I have played all seem to involve access to iron, lux and an early army. Pretty obvious stuff. Since we can't get a leader without an enemy, I guess I'm glad on balance we are at war.

We also have a relatively narrow point to defend versus a wide front. We will want to control the mountains and keep the AI on the flat lands on the other side of the mountains as soon as feasible.

Given that we have the immortals I think we can be a little more aggressive in this game on the attack. Take spears and cats to take along to help guard our immortals. Immortals are too expensive to lose on defense, and the cats increase their odds on offense.

Preturn: Debate whether RiverHills or Arebella is best for the GLib. Decide on RiverHills. The advantage of size over 6 means we can speed it up if needed.

IBT: Nothing

1225 BC: We settle Sidon and Get a skilled Warrior.

1150 Build Tyre. Zulu Warriors are advancing.

1100 BC: We get Math and can afford to go for wheel (in 4).

1000BC: We get Wheel and have Horses. I start on Writing to get Lit. Palace build will complete in 15.

Notes:
To speed the palace build I merged three workers. We will need to make some more. I think I built 2 total.
The Zulu will go back and forth forever if we so choose. I have been picking some off as they go back and forth.
(if we move the blue spear back and forth, the Zulu follow the red Arrow back and forth on picture).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_BC1000.JPG

Do I actually see horses by Sidon?

Since Greebley forgot to post this:
Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900 (currently playing)
ThERat (on deck)
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter

Thanks for posting the order. I did forget.

Yep, we have horses :)

I should be able to get to this Saturday. Mountain Dance looks good.


Did anyone drop of from boats? If so where?

The immortal and the warrior (injured on coast) killed an Impi. The Impi retreated so the warrior finished him off.

The boat you see has already been dropped off.

Mountain Dance looks good.

Yes, great AI-baiting. :goodjob:

Greebley

I just got back from an "easy" 3 hour "build a fence with the neighbor" job that turned into an all day 12 hours of hard labor.

I'm spent and in no condition to play, so if you want to work a swap that would be fine by me.

I will play Sunday night, but if you want to swap me feel free. :)

Sunday is fine. Within your 48.

I just got back from an "easy" 3 hour "build a fence with the neighbor" job that turned into an all day 12 hours of hard labor.

At least it didn't happen during football season. "Hey, we'll be done before kickoff, no problem...." :lol:

This is why living in a huge, soulless city where you don't even know your neighbours' names is so much better. ;)

This is why living in a huge, soulless city where you don't even know your neighbours' names is so much better. ;)

Gee, I'm convinced.

At least it didn't happen during football season. "Hey, we'll be done before kickoff, no problem...." :lol:

This is why living in a huge, soulless city where you don't even know your neighbours' names is so much better. ;)

:rotfl:

Yes - Being the one with the tools and the "know how" can be a problem when paired with a "sure - I'll help" :wallbash: (oh crap why did I say that!)disposition.

I GOT IT NOW :goodjob:

Pre turn
Decide to switch cities with barracks building cats to Immortals.
Kill on warrior on the Smoky Mountain.

Turn 1 975
Two elite wins but no leaders.
Zulu keep step with the Mountain Dance
Arbela grew to size 6, so I hired a scientist there and fire the one in Gordium so it could grow.
Not sure where I’ll send the settle. I don’t like towns in the path of a lava flow.

IBT
Persepolis- settler – Immortal
Arbela – immortal – immortal

Turn 2 950
Decide to send the settler to the hill N N NE of River Hills
Zulu found another town close to where our new city will be.

Turn 3 925
We settle and the new Immortals are moving to the new city.

IBT
Dutch start Great Wall.
More Impis on the way.
Iroquois finish ToA.

Turn 4 900
No way to get writing in one, so drop slider.
Kill all the Zulu on the mountains except a lone warrior in an effort to clear the area for the new settlement as well as leader fish. No losses and no leaders.

IBT
Zulu complete SoZ
Celts finish Great Wall
Celts finish MoM
Dutch finish Lighthouse

Turn 5 875
Zulu make a move on Tyre or River hills next turn. Maybe they just want to pillage. Three immortals are in position to take them out.
Found Samaria.
An Immortal army is born.

IBT
Writing – Lit (9 turns) Palace due in 8 @ 0gpt.
FP message appears.

Turn 6 850
Persepolis is going to build
We only have 5 workers so keep building them in Sidon.

IBT
Dutch warriors streaming from the North down the Mountains.

Turn 7 825
Palace in 8 Lit in 6.
Kill an impi.
Set up a picket line in the mountains to force the Dutch down to Samaria.
We can sneak another city up in the mountains if we want to.

Turn 8 800
Not much.
Position army to raze a Zulu town next turn.
Kill some Dutch warriors on the mountains but no elites.
GA ends on the IBT, so I’m going to crank the happy gas and place River hills on river tiles for the gold to avoid a riot in River Hills. I can never accurately calculate how much gold it takes to keep the sheeple happy when the GA ends. We will probably waste some gold on this turn.

IBY
GA ends
Persepolis – settler – settler
River Hills does not riot, but Arbela does. I’ll leave an Immortal there for homeland defense since a clown there does us no good.

Turn 9 775 BC
Raze a Zulu town and net a slave.
The Zulu are building these towns in all the wrong places.
The settler is moving towards a hill that is 2 spaces from Tyre which will open up after the army razes a Zulu city on flat land next to the hill.
Lit in 8 and palace in 9 and we are losing 4gpt with 47 in the bank.
River hills is size 9 8 so the lux is at 40%

IBT
We get the HE message

Turn 10 750
Kill some impi and warriors. I don’t remember losing any units yet. :D
Palace in 8 and Lit in 7 but we are losing 6gpt with 43 in the bank.
Next player may have to hire some tax guys for a turn since our unit costs will go up over the next 7 turns.

Notes:
Settler is in Tyre I though after you raze Tugela with the army you could grab the Hill 2 tiles from Tyre.
The worker 2-pack near Sardis was just building roads to connect everything.
We only have 5 workers so keep building them.
Perhaps 2-turn work in Persepolis is a decent idea. We don’t have a lot of troops to guard out front if it gets too wide. Also we lack workers to build roads to the front.
Immortal in Arbela is for rear city defense if you see a galley show up.
Some dumb-butt :blush: irrigated a river tile near River Hills.

750 bc

Settle Yellow/Red after you raze the Zulu city.
Garrison troops are pretty think though.
Tugela is on flat lands, so raze it.
Wait if you feel you need to. Definitly settle on the hill.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/750bc.JPG

I think it's my turn but where is the save?

I think it's my turn but where is the save?

Oops. forgot to hit "upload" before "close this window". :crazyeye:

Kind of a lull as I never felt under any AI pressure. Might be the Zulu are at war with someone else.

I think it's my turn but where is the save?

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat (currently playing)
Bead_head7 (on deck)
Northern Pike
LKendter

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_550BC.SAV)

Pre-Turn
since Sidon is finishing a worker next turn, leave Persepolis at settler first

IT Zulu sword showing up in the distance

1. 730BC
elite immortal defeats impi, beat another 2 warriors to advance to Tugela

IT sword approaches Gordium

2. 710BC
elite immortal beats sword, no leader
we raze Tugela

IT Persepolis settler

3. 690BC
need to hire some scientists to match prebuild and research, lit in 4, palace in 5
knock down dutch spear to 1hp, and :dance:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr5690.jpg

IT impis show up north

4. 670BC
found Hamadan, finally being able to eliminate our deficit research while lit still in 3

IT Persepolis for the time a 2 turn worker factory

5. 650BC
ding some units, elite immortal beats archer, 2nd army defeats one impi
can fire one scientist

IT enemy units dance around but don't attack
Tyre goes from cat to rax to preduce vet units as well

6. 630BC
settler on the way to another hill town, covered by army, another army beats impi
Hamadan connected now

IT quite a few Zulu units showing up, including the 1st AC (they finished SoZ :eek: )
all the units go after Samaria
we get lit, HBR next in 9 (we are running 40% lux)
Persepllis worker - worker

7. 610BC
change tile assignments and GL is down to 11, maybe we should merge some workers
retreat an impi and beat another 3 units

IT bad news :cry:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr5610.jpg

8. 590BC
join a worker into River Hills and GL now in 9
found Ergili on hill, a very bold approach, but we need to keep the pressure up
since we can't be sure of GL any longer, hire a scientist to reduce research to 6

IT nth much, wounded AC retreats

9.570BC
an exploring immortal discovers ivory in the east
army flawlessly beats AC
oh, maybe sticking head too far our, since we can see the glimpse of an orange border up north
(talking about an Island...)
and the Dutch are yellow this time

IT more bad news, see a green boat coming into view
Zulu start GL again, Dutch as well now
Zulu impi lands in our land in such a way we can't reach it :mad:
Dutch are sending some help for us with a warrior settler pair

10. 550BC
position our immortals so that we can beat impi next turn
we say thank you and grab 2 slaves, but need to bring them home
send a spear back to Tyre for protection, pull one out to block access to Grand River (we can;t allow that unit to screw up
our GL, so leave spear where it is)
declare on Celts

there is one Dutch boat in the south that has not dropped anything yet, we have to shadow it
Persepolis is building a settler to claim the ivory

the new front, there is another impi settler pair lurking in the north
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr5550a.jpg

grand overview, note the Dutch boat south and the new enemy, the Celts in the west, beware the orange border north
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr5550b.jpg

I would try to speed up the GLib. We have a good chance unless there is a cascade. Fortunately, a Cascade did happen right before on Handy's turn. That make another cascade to it less likely.

So merge in workers if it helps or improve lands (wake up workers if need be and raise lux). I think odds are still in our favor to get it. If it doesn't work out we fall back to the Forbidden Palace.

attempt of a dot map

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/gr5550c.JPG

do not settle yellow dot first, since there is a orange border (now under fog, but once you move a unit there, you can see. high priority is the dot next to ivory, we need a 2nd lux before we revolt (if we get the GL), since we would lose pop quite a bit with 1 lux during anarchy.

I would try to speed up the GLib I checked and it seems we have 71 or 72 shields left on GL

with currently 11/15 uncorrupted shields we need 7 turns
we could wake up the worker next to it and merge next turn, which would decrease the build by one turn

60 shields left = 11* 6 or 12 * 5 or 15 * 4

we won't be able to raise shields to 15, so merging one worker would do. Yes. lucky there was a cascade and we got a very good chance to complete it first. Just make sure to get rid of that impi and not get a riot due to unhappiness.

Oh boy, two armies already, Great Library coming. Should be a fun set. Actually, a switch would be preferable if possible. After Wednesday, I don't have much to be concerned about. Before then, I should probably minimize time spent on civ.

The Dutch boat might have 2 units on it. I would shadow it with 2 Immortals. It's a pain if they capture one of our rear cities.

The Celt boat is probably an empty explorer, but keep an eye on it.

If we don't need the 2nd army for homeland defense we should pair it up with the first army. They can stack and one attack while the other heals and protects. Two immortal armies are quite capable of razing the Zulu. :D

Might be time to get an exploring galley out to circle our continent. If we get the Glib more contacts will be a good thing.

I hope the cascade on my set puts us in good position to get the Glib.

If you find SoZ I suggest we with either raze it, or capture it as the last Zulu city. Otherwise it will slow the armies down trying to quell rebellion. We need to eliminate the Zulu.

(talking about an Island...) :crazyeye:

I've played three turns, and we've razed the city north of the ivory source (Umtata), which we should get hooked up towards the end of my round. We need to decide now how determined we are to avoid contact with the orange civ--the Ottomans, going by F11. Basically, we can advance in the natural direction, north through Isandhlwana, which would bring us into contact with the Ottomans almost immediately; advance to the northeast (which may be where the Dutch are), which might avoid the Ottomans but would leave us with an ever-lengthening right flank; or just consolidate our position and defeat what the AI sends at us. Your opinions, gentlemen? :borg:

I would not avoid contact for very long. most important is that we aggressively raze towns and expand. If we sit back and wait for the AI to come, we are dead sooner or later. Expand and if necessary we have to meet Ottomans, never mind.

talking about an Island :lol:

most important is that we aggressively raze towns and expand.
:lol:

I agree with this. Just keep razing towns and place cities in defensible CxxC spots (on hills if we can). If contact comes as a result, so be it.

Ya, I don't think we can keep off contact for long. We shouldn't stop expansion for it. I would like to make the most of our Immortals.

:bounce: Did we get the big bookstore? :bounce: I can't stand the suspense.

I won't be posting for another 24 hours or so...but to relieve your suspense, yes, we got it. :king:

Does anyone not want to revolt to monarchy as soon as we have our second luxury (the ivory) hooked up?

Good to hear we got the GLib.

Monarchy sounds great to me. And a start on the Forbidden Palace? I usually like to build it by hand since early armies are so effective, even though it costs shields.

350 BC, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-350BC.SAV)

550 (0): A Zulu swordsman dies attacking Ergili (1-0).

We get a palace expansion.


530 (1): I merge a worker into River Hills, as suggested.

We dispose of the Impi landed near Tyre (2-0).

I turn off research on Horseback Riding. I'll re-start it in the unlikely event that we don't get the Great Library.

We defeat an Impi and a Zulu warrior near Ergili, and a Dutch archer outside Samaria (5-0).

We refuse a Zulu request for an audience.

Samaria walls --> barracks.

The Celts found Curovernum in the hills west of Samaria. We should be able to raze it soon.


510 (2): On the Ergili-Samaria front we destroy two Impis and a Dutch warrior (8-0).

We narrowly defeat one Celtic spearman in Curovernum, but the town is still garrisoned (9-0).


490 (3): We raze Umtata (north of the ivory), held by two Impis, and gain a worker (11-0).

We defeat the final spearman in Curovernum and auto-raze the town, destroying a galley in port, but we lose an Immortal (13-1).

On the Ergili-Samaria front we overrun an Impi and a Zulu AC (15-1).

The Dutch are building Knights Templar.


470 (4): OK, the direct route it is, and damn the torpedoes (well, Ottomans ;)).

We trample a Zulu Impi/settler team near the ruins of Umtata (16-1). Our eastern army is herding five slaves now.

We cut down two Zulu archers and an Impi around Ergili (19-1).


450 (5): We overrun an Impi, a Zulu swordsman, and a Zulu archer on the approach to Isandhlwana (22-1).

We destroy a Dutch archer outside Samaria (23-1).

A Dutch archer surprises me by attacking an Immortal while depleted, but fails (24-1).

We complete the Great Library, seemingly by a safe margin.

I produce a settler out of Arbela, since the town's food box is almost full (at size six) and we're essentially getting it for one pop point.


430 (6): We lose an Immortal attacking a Dutch spear/settler team (24-2).

We raze Isandhlwana, held by two Impis, and gain two workers (26-2).

We spot an Ottoman spear/settler team, which would obviously have brought us into contact with them regardless of the direction of our advance, and declare war. They've got thirteen cities.

We hunt down an Impi between Samaria and Hamadan, and a Zulu archer in the northeastern wilderness (28-2).

The GL gives us all the remaining AA techs, and also Monotheism. We get Feudalism as our free mediaeval tech.

Gordium builds our first galley.


410 (7): We destroy an Impi and a Zulu archer near Ergili (30-2).


390 (8): We found Isfahan next to the ivory tile.

Assuming the Zulus are our first priority, I'm not sure where to send our armies. There's only one short stretch of black border showing, to the northeast, and it might well belong to a useless hill town. Most Zulu units--including their AC, which we know are coming from Zimbabwe--seem to be approaching from directly north, implying that the Zulu core is behind a band of Ottoman territory. What makes this decision more difficult is that we appear to be in a valley entirely surrounded by hills and mountains, so wherever we direct our armies, they'll move slowly. In the end, I move our fully healed army towards the north. It defeats a Dutch spearman and a Dutch swordsman on the way (32-2).

We defeat a Zulu swordsman outside Ergili, and another two to the northeast (35-2).


370 (9): Dealing with a Dutch MDI landed in the hills next to Tyre (though mountains were available :smoke: ) costs us an Immortal (36-3).

We push a little farther north with our army, establishing that the Zulus are indeed behind the Ottomans and destroying two Ottoman units (warrior and archer) on the way (38-3). The ring of hills and mountains around our valley seems to be at least four squares thick.


350 (10): A seemingly well-prepared attack against Dutch Middelburg (three cats managing two hits) fails, one Immortal succeeding against a spearman but another losing, leaving at least a spearman and an archer in the town (39-4). Elsewhere in the region we defeat a Dutch archer (40-4).

Our workers hook up Isfahan's ivory.

In confused fighting north of Ergili we destroy a Zulu AC, a Zulu swordsman, two Dutch swordsmen, and a Dutch archer (45-4).

Nine elite victories this round didn't produce a Great Leader.

We should wait two turns, which will allow seven units to complete, and then revolt to monarchy. We shouldn't automatically send all the new units to the front, because our rear area is weakly garrisoned, and the Dutch have recently landed at Tyre, a spot the Zulus also like.

Our settlers are in Samaria and Ergili, and still have their movement.

The Dutch galley near Shiraz is the one that dropped the MDI off near Tyre. The galley off Isfahan hasn't landed anything yet.

Our somewhat messy-looking deployments between Tyre and Isfahan are intended to give us the most options if the Dutch land next to either city.

If we can hold on in the area for another two turns, we'll have a tactically valuable road through the hill and mountain north of Ergili.

We'll soon be able to send two galleys always stacked together, to exploit Handy's clever observation that the AI hates to attack stacked naval units, out to explore the world. Safely uniting the galley fortified off Gordium and the one about to be produced in Shiraz may require patience and care, though, since the Dutch galley in the area has five movement points.

Konya is on grassland, not hills, so that looks like a promising attack for our northern army.

Persepolis is about to produce an Immortal, so that we'll be a little stronger during our anarchy, but after that it should probably go back to generating settlers.

The AI will probably try to re-settle the razed site west of Samaria. So the site is a sort of settler trap--but not an ideal one, since it's on a hill.

We're hand-building the FP in River Hills, as suggested.

Our road network around Isfahan isn't right yet, because I changed the city's location at the last moment for tactical reasons. Our two workers in the area should road the mountain by the town as their next job to correct the problem.

We've got a single-scientist run to Engineering going, since I believe in this as a precaution. Of course the scientist (presently in Isfahan) should move every couple of turns.

I think we have fair chances, but this will be a much harder game than appeared to be the case at the beginning of my round. The geography is dreadful from the standpoint of eliminating any one opponent quickly.

The slow march north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-350BC.JPG

We'll soon be able to send two galleys always stacked together, to exploit Handy's clever observation that the AI hates to attack stacked naval units, out to explore the world.

I hope that holds here. I'm not sure if they were afraid to attack, ot if they were at their max unit support and would not disband a warrior in order to build a galley. The they won't attack a stack tactic may only apply to Sid Islands, but we'll find out soon enough.

One other little trick is to use the last movement to fortify the galleys. I can't recall a fortified galley stack being attacked in the past.

:thumbsup: Great kill ratio and a wonderful write up.

I agree that the geography is going to make this harder. We will need roads thru those mountains, so slaves will be important in this one. No wonder it took the AI so long to find us with all those mountains, hills, swamp and jungle.

I know stacking works in the later eras with boats, so it should work here just fine too. Or rather I would be suprised if it didn't.

Since I almost missed this. I just realized that I might be up.

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat
Bead_head7 (currently playing?) Is this still a swap or a skip?
Northern Pike (just played)
LKendter (on deck)

If you would take it, LK, that would be great. Depending on when you finish and what Greebley wants, I may pick it up after you. As it is, it looks like my schedule is still relatively packed for a few more days, and when I have the time, playing Civ isn't how I want to spend it.

Signed up:
Greebley (on deck)
Handy900
ThERat
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-150BC.zip


350 BC
I realize that Immortals are great attackers. However, I would like to have a few fast units in our rear to deal with surprises. This is even more important when you consider the capitol is naked. The FP city has a conscript warrior. This is going to tempt the AI too much for landings. I simply can't play this risky. The other issue is we have nothing to hunt down fast impi and Gallic swordsman with.
(IT) We get Theology and Chivalry for free.
We lost our galley. (0-1)


330 BC
I kill 1 swordsman, 1 archer, 1 spearman, 1 impi and 2 Gallic swordsmen. (6-1)
(IT) We lost 1 spearman. (6-2)


310 BC
I kill 1 swordsman, 1 archer, and 1 Gallic swordsman. (9-2)
(IT) We lost 1 elite immortal. (9-3)


290 BC
I kill 1 ancient cavalry, and 1 Gallic swordsman. (11-3)


270 BC
I killed 2 archers, 1 impi and 1 spearman. I lost 1 immortal to a lone archer. (15-4)

I auto-razed Ibabanago that the AI formed next to our army. :crazyeye:


250 BC
I killed 1 impi, and 2 spearmen. (18-4)

I razed Middleburg.
(IT) An AC tries to break out mountain guards. (19-4)


230 BC
I killed 1 spearman, 1 swordsman and 3 Gallic swordsmen. (24-4)
I lost 1 immortal to an injured swordsman. (24-5)
I just noticed some major weed, and I am not sure if I did it. Why in the world are we still in despotism? I order an immediate revolt and hope we can survive 7 turns of anarchy.
(IT) The sacrificial warrior is dead. This gives me enough time so save Tyre from a landing. (24-6)
An attacking swordsman dies. (25-6)


210 BC
I kill 2 swordsmen, 1 impi, and 2 MDI . (30-6)
The conscript warrior fails to kill the 1 HP archer. Our elite immortal can't kill a 2 hp sword. (30-8)
(IT) I just watch a lot of units move toward us.


190 BC
I killed 3 archers, and 1 Gallic swordsman. (34-8)
The landing is finally contained.
(IT) Forget the stacked galley theory. We won, but the stack of 2 galleys WAS attacked. (35-8).
We get Engineering from the Great Library. [dance]
The heading of river crossings is gone.


170 BC
I killed 2 impi. I lost 1 immortal. (37-9)
(IT) I killed 1 swordsman. (38-9)


150 BC
I killed 1 impi, 5 archers, and 1 Gallic swordsman. (45-9)


==========================

Summary:
This is downright ugly. We have built no infrastructure and I don't see when we can. You can't survive long-term in AW without some buildings. The GL may not have a lot of time left, but we have zero research buildings.

We have no fast units built. My kill ratio is NOT what you need in AW. I think there are more AI units now then at the start of my turn.

The other problem is the front is really lacking the needed road network.

The party for Greebley to have fun with:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-784.jpg


Signed up:
Greebley (currently playing)
Handy900 (on deck)
ThERat
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter

I am hoping things were ugly because you got to fight the first wave of celts. They will lessen with time. I don't mean we will win, but things will have looked worse on your turn than they may actually be.

I expect Demi AW to be tough. We may not win even with a decent start.

In any case, I got it. If kill ratios are poor, will more Trebuchets help?

In any case, I got it. If kill ratios are poor, will more Trebuchets help?
I see the problems as:
1) NO fast units to hunt down strays
2) A few more bombards wouldn't hurt.
3) We are fighting without a road net, yet don't have the units to protect the workers.

I just noticed some major weed, and I am not sure if I did it. Why in the world are we still in despotism?

Well, this was the first item in my "The Future" post above:

We should wait two turns, which will allow seven units to complete, and then revolt to monarchy.

That's bad news about the AI attack on stacked galleys.

Preturn: Hmm... I see why you were discouraged, Lee. It is more than just the Celts. There are a LOT of units out there.

Early: It is rather tough holding on with us having no new units but we do it.

Mid: I see a stack of 6 Netherlands Knights.

Late: We get a leader on the last turn. I go for the Army (We have 1 knight and are making another next turn for a Knight army).

Notes:
A rough set of turns, but things are momentarily calm. Only 16 visible units at the moment - fortunately over half is low level stuff (Att or Def over 2 there is 1 knight, 4 MDI, and 2 long bow). Some of the movement was odd. The AI may have gone to war. It may be possible to use the armies to advance.

Some towns are set to worker. We are behind on worker counts and need some to expand forward. We need more cities to support our unit costs. In cases like this I even keep enemy cities (or at least try)). In this case the AI city placement is so terrible, it might be better to irrigate a city and put it on settler duty.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_AD50.JPG

I'll will grab it and see what I can do Friday Night.

I do not see any Zulu cities. Are they still alive behind the Dutch marsh?

What happened? I see more then one city in riot. :(
This game is very difficult, and I hate to see wastage at that level.


I do not see any Zulu cities. Are they still alive behind the Dutch?
Take a look above Konya. You may see the black borders of the Zulu.

In cases like this I even keep enemy cities (or at least try)).
If you really want to do this we NEED some culture buildings. I suspect any town we attempt to take will have horrid flip risks as we have almost zero culture beyond the palace and GL.

Take a look above Konya. You may see the black borders of the Zulu.


Thanks, I can see it now.

On riots: I moved the defenders out after I checked for happiness. Monarchy still gets me now and then with this even after all this time. I am not sure what to do about it other than buying a replacement brain. :crazyeye:

I wasn't playing well last night either. I see I failed to mention the all important fact that we got education before gunpowder which is a bummer. That is why we are researching.

The cities are so badly placed near us - I think I would rather go with the dedicated settler factory than trying to keep cities.

I have my suspicions about culture. I have a hypothesis that the maximum culture you should enter into tech-calc is 4 to 1/4 the same as distance. Flips just do not seem to happen at the rate tech-calc claims they should. I have been thinking about trying to find the time to prove or disprove this theory.

If the above theory is true, then you can let your culture go to pot if you are less than 1/4 the other civs and not likely to be able to catch up.

Not sure what our current culture is. We do need libraries badly though for the border expansions and for research. We are also short on Markets and need those badly too.

I think the FP will help things. Corruption is bad right now.

I took a look at the game. We are going to have to push infrastructure hard or we will lose this game. 20% science greatly increases the odds of a loss. I don't want to wind up fighting tanks with riflemen.

The good news is the troop density is way down.

The next big challenge is to expand the empire. We really need to find another luxury. I would also like to locate one of the iron sources for the AI. We have see metal units from Zululand, the Celts, and the Ottomans. That is to many strong AIs to fight.

I took a look at the game. We are going to have to push infrastructure hard or we will lose this game. 20% science greatly increases the odds of a loss. I don't want to wind up fighting tanks with riflemen.

The good news is the troop density is way down.

The next big challenge is to expand the empire. We really need to find another luxury. I would also like to locate one of the iron sources for the AI. We have see metal units from Zululand, the Celts, and the Ottomans. That is to many strong AIs to fight.


Agree on all points. We also need to be diligent about settleing new towns. Each town provides for free unit support and we can irrigate corrupt cities and hire scientists.

We have one settler that we can use. I was only able to settle one town and started with two. We will need more settlers to advance.

Markets are very high priority so we can raise science as mentioned. Additional towns also reduce unit cost as well as getting towns over size 6. Unit cost is currently high. We needed them for the influx.

Basically, I am also 100% in agreement with what has been mentioned.

Each town provides for free unit support and we can irrigate corrupt cities and hire scientists.

If there is one thing I know if the power of science specialist cities. One of the LK series AW games could research an IA tech in less than 15 turns at 0% science. You can't get those specialist cities soon enough. It takes time to growth them to size 6.

I agree with the ideas which have emerged here. Once the knight army is filled up we have to get it out and exploring--for luxuries, iron sources, whatever--even if we're strongly tempted to use it for defense.

It's getting hard now

Pre Turn
We go 7-0 on defense. Pentagon message pops up.
Persepolis – knight – market
Sidon – walls – settler
Sardis – treb – treb
Samaria – rax – treb
Ghulaman - walls – treb
Dutch build Art of War
Dutch, Celts and Otto all have gunpowder. We have 48 turns to go.
Seven Dutch Knights approach Ergili.

Turn 1 70
Kill a spear looking to pillage (8-0)
Bomb some units and pull all the cats and the settler from Ergili. If the knights take it we will need cats to get it back. There are two pikes and a spear in the walled city to make a stand.
A line of Pikes on the mountains between Ghulaman and Samaria would funnel the Ai away from the Mountains

IBT
No attacks, the Knights avoid Ergili and may have their sites on River Hills

Turn 2 90
Elite immortal barely wins on mountains against a sword.
Kill impi and Acav
Expose the settler to bait the AI Knight stack
[11-0]

IBT
Pikes in Samaria go 4-0 and a spear in Ghulaman also wins
[16-0]
River Hills – FP – market
Gordium – library – Knight
The naked settler attracts 3 knights, the others race to Samaria. The AI really wants Samaria for some reason. (Saltpeter?)

Turn 3 110
River hills grows into unhappiness in 10 turns. The market will take 7, and we may want to get a settler out after the market.
Arbela has to hire a specialist (Shiraz has one also).
Ghulaman is not connected, so I’m building regular warriors for MP there.
Kill 2 Dutch near the ivory.
Kill 5 of the 7 Dutch Knights.
[23-0]

IBT
Kill 2 and lose 1 [25-1]


Turn 4 130
Kill the last of the seven Dutch knights.
[26-1]
A small stack of 2 Zulu swords and 1 impi will attack Samaria on the IBT. Other than that it is mostly single AI units. Maybe we can catch a breather here somewhere.


IBT

Turn 5 150
Kill 2 impi
Raze Leiden killing 2 Dutch
The galleys got bombed by Zulu cats. I will try not to park them next to cities anymore since they are weak. Too bad Galleys cannot heal in neutral sea territory.
Empty some cities on the east side to try and pull the Ai back toward our killing fields between Samaria and Ergili.
Declare on Hiawatha when he pops up
We are going to be in trouble soon. Celts and Dutch are now sending Knights.
Arbela – library – pike
Shiraz – knight – Library
Bactra – Library – Treb
[30-1]

Turn 6 170
Dutch must have gunpowder since the galleys can see Muskets
Kill Acav, impi, spear, and spear.
This is frustrating. There is no good place to put the settler except for a throw away city on the back lines.
[34-1]

IBT
No attacks, but now we have Dutch, Celt and Zulu Knights to deal with. Currently there are 12 knights in view scattered all over the place. I am trying to draw them toward Hamadan, which makes them pass the Immortal, and knight army near Ergili where I can bomb them. This is a long-term loser since we are not adding any real estate and not damaging the AI. Oh how I miss pillaging at times like this.

I can bomb some but they will recycle into a larger stack, which is no bargain.

Turn 7 190
A first for me. The Zulu have galleys positioned to block the advance of our galleys. A rare brilliant tactical move by the AI. I think we may get sunk on the IBT.
Kill 2 knight
[36-1]

IBT
Galleys get sunk by a Zulu galley stack.

Turn 8 210
Good News: The bait toward Hamadan is working.
Bad news: There are more units taking the bait than we can kill.
I might hold them off, but the next player will not be able to because of the number of Recycled units that is building.
Kill 2 knights.
Getting a little dicey here. I have the capital and FP building markets which complete in the next 2 turns. Then we can get dome knights to deal with the threat. We may hang on by the skin of our teeth.
[38-1]

IBT
Lose Pike and Immortal to Knight attacks.
[38-3]

Turn 9 220
The libraries and markets are not helping our research much as GP remains 40 turns away.
Where are all these Celt Knights coming from?
Kill 2 more Knights
With luck we will regain control of the mountains next turn and force the AI (I hope) to the flat lands.
[40-3]

IBT
Mi attacks and defeats a spear in the Mountains. So much for the idea of regaining control.
River Hills – market – Library
Celt’s build Leo
Iroquois are building Copernicus Get ready for Caravels in our lightly guarded rear cities.
Babylon joins the party they also have Astronomy.
[40-4]

Turn 10
Brave Immortal dies attacking a Knight.
Kill 3 knights.
Isfahan (Ivory) cannot reinforce Hamadan because of the road situation.
We popped a leader from Ghulaman. I lost an immortal trying to clear a path for the leader, so I pulled a spear from Ghulaman leaving it empty to protect the leader from a nearby wounded spear. Next turn spear can return to Ghulaman.
[43-6] (Lots of red-lined winners in these stats.)

Notes:
This was a holding pattern set while we built some libraries and markets.
Next player up has their hands full while we build some Knights.
Recommend we build the Pentagon with the leader. Perhaps in Samaria or Ergili to push the borders. We can build the HE in 15 turns by hand or with next leader.
Kill ratio is a little misleading. Units we bombed but did not kill are not reflected in the kill ratio.
We are 1 turn away from both of our major cities having a library and a market. They can both pull 14 spt for 5 turn knights.
If we need to can place some fishing villages behind the lines. This may be a good idea.
Ghulaman is on reg. warriors for MP. Abandon if you need to.
The settler is still waiting for a safe spot to go to.
Arbela has a specialist since I used the Immortal garrisoned there to kill a spear. Place the Immortal back in Arbela and fire the specialist.
Celts have 5 MI on the mountain near Ergili. There are lots of cats in Ergili so you should be okay.
Once we get a few knights from the captital maybe we can get a push going again.

picture of 250ad. All of the exposed Knights belong to the AI.
There really is no good path for expansion here.
The best path seems to be straight up the valley with all new towns on a hill.
We need the hill cities for the bouus since we are vastly outnumbered, and Babylon and Iroquois will soon show up (probably by boat in our pathetically guarded rear).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/250ad.JPG

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat (currently playing)
Bead_head7 (on deck)
Northern Pike
LKendter

I agree with the ideas which have emerged here. Once the knight army is filled up we have to get it out and exploring--for luxuries, iron sources, whatever--even if we're strongly tempted to use it for defense.

I kept it at home while we built markets and libraries since we had so few cities on military production. It should be free to go forth after we get a few more knights produced. Remember though, since we are under a pillaging restriction, exploration does not really do us that much good.

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat (currently playing)
Bead_head7 (on deck)
Northern Pike
LKendter

:hmm: IIRC Rat is on holiday and can comment but not play, so Bed Head may be the one who is up.

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat (skip May 5th to May 22nd)
Bead_head7 (currently playing)
Northern Pike (on deck)
LKendter

If we do lose this game, I would say one primary reason for the loss is meeting too many civs too quickly after the initial period of quiet.

Unless I messed up, this should be continents. Some of the newest civs will show up in boats rather than en-mass.

Great defensive stand. :goodjob:

Remember though, since we are under a pillaging restriction, exploration does not really do us that much good.

I'd still like to know where the resources and luxuries are, but it was your call. Perhaps we should pin our hopes now on getting two four-unit knight armies out to raze some enemy cities.

If we do lose this game, I would say one primary reason for the loss is meeting too many civs too quickly after the initial period of quiet.

Unless I messed up, this should be continents. Some of the newest civs will show up in boats rather than en-mass.

I don't quite have that hopeless feeling yet, but it definitly is getting crowded. DG just send so many units at you, and the land is not favorable for any sort of a push. Fewer mountains would help some.

I almost settled between Ergili and Samaria to create an ICS typw CxCxC sitiation to make things easier to defend. This is worth considering as we could bomb kinghts passing along on both sides. I hate to settle on the sugar, but that's the best place to go ICS. Perhaps a slow ICS march to the north is the best (only) feasible plan. We need roads to shuffle cats and units, and there is no way to build roads if we go CxxC. Too many knights around.

We haven't lost yet - I agree. We are stalling a bit which may not be a good sign either. I am primarily worried about our horrible research rate.

I am guessing if we can't make some military progress and raze some cities, its going to get worse and worse though.

Got it, and I'll probably finish up towards the end of my 48hrs.

Bead_head7 (currently playing) how come in this game bedhead became a beadhead? :lol: :lol:

I think we have to try and push forward. settling in the hills 1 tile SW of delft looks promising to expand into that direction. are we allowed to send an army into enemy teritory for a recon mission?

how come in this game bedhead became a beadhead? :lol: :lol: ?

:hmm: Bed_Head, Bead_head? Maybe it's a 70's retro thing. :D

IIRC we are allowed to explore all we want, byt it's the pillgaing that is restricted. Greebley can correct me if this is not the case.

I am guessing if we can't make some military progress and raze some cities, its going to get worse and worse though.
Exactly. We need to hurt the AI. Killing 40 units isn't really hurting them because they are building infra and researching faster than we are.

Perhaps the big initial stacks (like 7 knights) were AI horse upgrades, but even after that the number of knights to deal with is pretty large. You can bait the AI for a while, but eventually there is no safe place to bait from when the numbers get too big.

settling in the hills 1 tile SW of delft looks promising to expand into that direction. are we allowed to send an army into enemy teritory for a recon mission. I think we have to try and push forward.
We do have to push forward, and once we build a few 5-turn knights perhaps we can. I though about settleing the hill you mentioned, but we were short on units. An ICS creep along the hills toward Delft is a good idea.

Ergili is a great kill zone to pick off units as they pass by toward Hamadan, but we can't stay there forever.

There is also the restriction of going past the first row of cities without razing.

There is also the restriction of going past the first row of cities without razing.

I'm not suggesting that we should change the rules now, but I don't really see the point of this one. Don't the restrictions on pillaging sufficiently limit abusive use of armies? There can be perfectly legitimate tactical reasons for attacking city A instead of city B which is in front of it.

I guess I was thinking about using army immunity to waltz across enemy territory to grab the only city with some resource using 2-3 armies. 2-3 armies can take out cities without much risk pretty much anywhere. It takes time because you have to heal alot, but if you keep at least one armies HP up, it is very doable.

Note that if the AI settles between our lands and the army we do NOT have to back track, but can continue forward.

Any city reasonable close to the front lines can be considered a front line city. Units can also enter any of the 20 squares that front line can work. So putting a unit on every workable square to starve a city to size 1 is acceptable. This means you can explore slightly past the first row of cities.

At least this is what I was thinking when I created the rule. If ppl want to drop it in future games, I am ok with it. It does suffer from not beging cut and dry (front-line city is not fully defined).

Thanks for the full explanation.

IT - [1-1]

260 AD (1) - I am not that familiar with this sort of situation, but I'll see what I can do. [6-1]

270 AD (2) - Going to try to hold Ghulaman for one more turn until we build two more cities and can get our fourth army. [10-1]

IT - Hold Ghulaman, lose a spear. [11-2]

280 AD (3) - Fourth army, though empty, built. Ghulaman abandoned. [15-2]

IT - Retreating warrior killed. [15-3]

290 AD (4) - Healing turn. [16-3]

IT - [16-4]

300 AD (5) - Lots of strays about, and no bad stacks, so not a ton of action. [21-4]

310 AD (6) - Things are getting a little dicey. [29-4]

IT - Whew. [34-6]

320 AD (7) - Still haven't even managed to fill the fourth army. [40-6]

330 AD (8) - Things are actually cleaning up a bit. No threats to any cities at all. Maybe we can start pushing this soon. [48-7]

340 AD (9) - I guess we'll need some more pikes to be able to settle anything. [57-7]

IT - Ugh. Two knights beat two pikes fortified on hills across a river, and we lose Ishtakr or whatever. Worse, we lose a bunch of catapults, probably headed for Delft. [57-9]

350 AD (10) - Try to clear up a way to get to our catapults. Hopefully we can get them back soon. [68-9]

I didn't really manage to do anything but hold 'em off. Not the best kill ratio, but if I recall, we lost 250s in units compared to something probably around 3000s (we killed at least 20 knights and 15 MI), which is a decent ratio. Well, not counting the lost catapults. Also, we have one more army, and there is no opposing stack of anywhere near the size that were around when I inherited the save.

Backline defense isn't much better. There are three knights hanging around back there, two north of Sardis (where the AI seems to like to land) and one northwest of River Hills.

It is really the science situation that is most in trouble I guess. So we need to slow them, and be able to help out our own economy. So, same thing as it has been for awhile.

There is still a settler in Samaria, and size sixes with full boxes can peel settlers for little loss. The terrain really sucks for settling, and I don't really know what to do to help that save for get beyond the mountain range causing so many problems.

I realize Pentagon was recommended for leader, but we need more moves on the attack, and I think an extra army provides more attack than another unit in our armies in this case, despite less required healing for our immortal armies.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_350AD_east.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Gr5_350AD_west.jpg

IT - Ugh. Two knights beat two pikes fortified on hills across a river, and we lose Ishtakr or whatever.
That is something you hate to read in AW. The question now is this a fluke, or signs of bigger trouble?

Well, it was the big fluke for the AI in my turnset. Honestly, I feel like the unit situation is better at the end of my turns than it was at the start, despite the small setbacks. The big fluke in our favor was flawlessly beating a musketman dropped off by Sardis with a knight. Our fluke, of course, wasn't critically necessary, as two other units could take out the musket if necessary, but it was still nice.

Got it. I'll try to recapture the catapults.

Sounds like a tough turn. You get those in AW.

I take it you lost a city that you had recently founded? I see a ruins where previously there was nothing.

Looking at the game it looks like we lost 4 catapults and a Trebuchet. They will probably be in Delft if we can take that town out.

We may want to build more immortals. Knights are more shields and no better on attack. A few immortals in the border towns would be good. You don't always need the extra movement and defense.

Game is looking hard. We will have to see what the future brings.

We are not at war with Egypt. They show up as peace on F4. I suspect they bought contact but didn't communicate. We need to declare war ASAP.

Signed up:
Greebley
Handy900
ThERat (skip May 5th to May 22nd)
Bed_head7
Northern Pike - Currently Playing
LKendter - On Deck

Yep, it was founded in 280 AD. I see I forgot to mention its founding. Sorry about the Egypt thing, I never noticed.

Its easy to miss a new contact since you are never trading It has happened to me. A good policy is to check begining, middle, end. Some ppl may check every turn, but I usually don't remember to.

Its easy to miss a new contact since you are never trading It has happened to me. A good policy is to check begining, middle, end. Some ppl may check every turn, but I usually don't remember to.

I usually notice new people on Mapstat, which I am now addicted to for the riot prevention.

The map in this game is making things a good bit harder. It is hard to determine where to settle with all that jungle.

If there is any way to get some armies out in tandem to go on the attack we should do so. There may be too much traffic to do it, but if we can't raze cities we will get overwhelmed pretty soon.

I usually notice new people on Mapstat, which I am now addicted to for the riot prevention.

It is such a nice program - isn't it. :)
I live by it now.

If there is any way to get some armies out in tandem to go on the attack we should do so. There may be too much traffic to do it, but if we can't raze cities we will get overwhelmed pretty soon. completely agree

I usually notice new people on Mapstat, which I am now addicted to for the riot prevention. by far the most useful tool for us, I guess

completely agree

by far the most useful tool for us, I guess

It tells you the status at the beginning if the turn. A city can be fine, but if you take units out to kill an AI it won't pick up on that. It's easy to forget about that in the heat of battle. I try to also remember to check before I hit F1.

It tells you the status at the beginning if the turn. A city can be fine, but if you take units out to kill an AI it won't pick up on that. It's easy to forget about that in the heat of battle. I try to also remember to check before I hit F1.

Save the game at the END of the turn. I pick up a lot of MP screw ups that way. I am running Monarchy in the current COTM and it has really helped me.

I have actually stopped using MapStat in most games unless it is a diplomacy intensive situation. I was finding myself not paying enough attention to all cities if MapStat allowed me to check on only disorders. Of course, sometimes I only check on cities that I see from F1 are going to revolt, but generally I try to check all cities that grew (which MapStat is good for I suppose) and in war time check all cities that had units go through their tiles.

Save the game at the END of the turn. I pick up a lot of MP screw ups that way. I am running Monarchy in the current COTM and it has really helped me.

Good idea. I'll do it. :goodjob:

but generally I try to check all cities that grew (which MapStat is good for I suppose)
What is the easiest was to use mapstat to tell you which cities have grown so you can work the best tiles? I have not used it for this. Mostly I use it to check for flip risk, riots and to check for trades.

You can set mapstat up to show on the happy screen when a city grew or shrunk.

You can set mapstat up to show on the happy screen when a city grew or shrunk.

Thanks. That will help alot. :D

450 AD, end of turn (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-450AD.SAV)

350 AD (0): Very efficient shield MM of our cities. :goodjob:

Sardis and Sidon are building pikemen without barracks, so I change their builds. I change Persepolis from knight to library, too.

We're at peace with the Egyptians, who presumably showed up unannounced on the contacts list, so I declare against them. Cleo has sixteen cities.

I agree that we can't just produce knights, and I'll be sure to build some Immortals.

A Celtic MDI comes within two HP of destroying our depleted knight army (1-0).

The catapults captured by the Dutch disappear into Delft, a hill town presumably held by Swiss, so we'll have to write them off.


360 (1): Defeating the latest landing next to Sardis, made by an Iroquois spearman and longbowman, costs us an Immortal (3-1).

We destroy three Celtic units--a knight, an MDI, and a longbowman--around Ergili (6-1).

Here come the Celtic Crusaders.

Persepolis library--> knight.


370 (2): We defeat four knights--two Dutch, one Zulu, and one Celtic--around Ergili (10-1).

We overrun an Ottoman spearman almost in position to start pillaging Bactra's improved tiles (11-1).


380 (3): Around Ergili we defeat five knights (2 Dutch, 2 Celtic, 1 Zulu), an AC (Zulu), three LB (2 Ottoman, 1 Dutch), and a Crusader (Celtic; 21-1).

Near Bactra we eliminate an Impi (22-1).


390 (4): We crush an Ottoman LB landed near Arbela (23-1).

We defeat two Dutch knights and a Dutch LB approaching Isfahan (26-1).

We kill a Dutch knight near Ergili (27-1).


400 (5): Two Celtic knights, a Dutch knight, and a Celtic LB near Ergili; a Zulu knight outside Isfahan; an Ottoman LB near Bactra (33-1).

The Ottomans are building Bach.


410 (6): Three Dutch knights around Ergili; an Impi landed near Sardis; an Impi outside Samaria (38-1).


420 (7): A Celtic pikeman about to pillage Bactra; an Ottoman knight near Samaria; an Impi outside River Hills; a Dutch knight outside Ergili; a Dutch LB/spear team and another Dutch LB near Isfahan. We have a bad time attacking longbowmen with knights, though, as one dies and one retreats (45-2).

We lose a pikeman covering a knight to the attack of a Zulu AC (45-3).


430 (8): Having managed to get both of our knight armies fully rested, we take Ottoman Mugla, held by two spearmen (47-3). We enter and abandon the town rather than razing it, since escorting slaves back to our lines would defeat the idea of finally getting armies out on the attack.

A Swiss Mercenary and a Celtic Crusader outside Ergili; a Dutch LB near Isfahan; a Swiss Mercenary near Bactra; two Ottoman knights next to Samaria; an Ottoman knight near Hamadan (54-3).

We found Under the Volcano northwest of River Hills. Obviously this isn't an ideal site (on a hill, but with mountains adjacent), and we may not be able to hold the town, but I don't want to be completely passive about founding new cities.


440 (9): A Zulu knight and a Dutch LB near Isfahan; an Impi and an Ottoman knight in the Ergili-Samaria gap (58-3).

We reject a Zulu request for an audience.

Sardis library --> trebuchet.


450 (10): Our knight armies destroy two Ottoman spearmen in Konya, but the town is still garrisoned by a wretched LB (60-3).

A Zulu AC and a Dutch knight near Ergili; an Ottoman spear/LB team near Under the Volcano (64-3).

Thirteen elite victories this round didn't produce a Great Leader. We don't have the Heroic Epic built, of course.

Well, we have two knight armies out on the attack, so if we can't pull this one out we'll at least go down fighting.

As soon as we hit Enter we'll complete some infrastructure--a university in Persepolis, aqueducts in Gordium and Arbela.

The rate at which AI units arrive on the battlefield seems to have held steady during my round. The main new development is that the AI has started sending slow attack units, and not just pillagers, down the western mountain chain.

We have one settler, in Hamadan.

On the attack:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-450AD.JPG

Ugh, I can't believe I was building units in cities without barracks. At least none were ever built. But, what was I thinking?

Very nice looking turns, NP.

BTW, your decision to use your GL for a fourth army rather than the Pentagon was the correct one. We could never have sent two armies out while keeping only one back for defense.

That was how I felt. Glad to see some comment on that decision finally, with all the posts about MapStat and such. I figured even without Heroic Epic, we'd get another leader soon enough to rush Pentagon, but it might be awhile before we'd get to sixteen cities again for the fourth army (with the one virtually indefensible spot and the other being the one I let be razed). Of course, I had a handful of elite wins with a couple immortals (which I don't think made it to the handoff, unfortunately) and NP had a good number, but no leader. In time, I suppose.

I wonder if we create a pike line running from Samaria NW to the Ocean if the AI would move off the mountains to attack Samaria. Spare units are hard to find but diverting the AI off the mountains would funnel them toward cats in Samaria

Certainly the AI isn't attacking veteran pikes on mountains with its four-attack-factor units, although the Crusaders might be a wild card.

Greebley (on deck)
Handy900
ThERat (skip May 5th to May 22nd)
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter (currently playing)

/delurking:
Are you taking full advantage of the 5-tile in pillaging restriction? Is that Delft Iron out of commission? Greebley put a restriction but I would take full advantage.

I just started playing, but it is pretty clear the fat lady is about to step on the stage. The tech hole worse then I realized. However, this is worse as we are in no position to fight these.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-798.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/GR5-530AD.zip


450 AD
I wake up a sleeping knight to kill the musket behind our lines. (1-0)

We are at 20% science and bleeding cash. This game is in deep trouble.

The number one problem is the front is TOO wide. I have got to get some workers to the mountains to build forts manned with pikes.
(IT) We are really frelled as I see AI cavalry arrive.

I kill one AC, and lost 1 pike. (2-1)


460 AD
I killed 1 pikeman, 1 knight and 1 longbow. (5-1)

Konya is razed. I simply disband the workers. I don't like abandoning cities as the misery goes to another city.
(IT) A longbow kills a pike on the mountains. (5-2)
We lost several workers during the kill. :cry:

The Celts are building Shakespeare. :eek:
The Netherlands is also sending cavalry our way.


470 AD
I stare at the map and can't ever figure out what to do. There are to many fast units between Samaria and Ergili and we STILL have the same lack of roads that I complained about last turn. I am forced to abandon my plans to get the army to the mountains with workers to build a fort line to shortly the front.

I killed 1 merc, 2 longbows, and 6 knights. (14-2)
(IT) Both sides lost 1 knight. (15-3)


480 AD
I killed 5 knights, 1 cavalry , 1 impi, 2 spearmen, 1 archer, and 1 longbow. (25-2)
(IT) I killed 1 cavalry, and 1 knight. (27-2)
However, the cavalry attacked our yellow-lined immortal army. :eek:
Things just got worse.


490 AD
I killed 1 mounted warrior, and 1 longbow that landed behind our lines. I lost 1 knight. I am not surprised as the ONLY attacked available were injured. I still felt the odds were better to attack. (30-3)

Outside of the landing I killed 3 knights. (33-3)
(IT) One MDI is killed. (34-3)


500 AD
I killed 1 archer, 3 knights, 1 musket, 1 impi and 1 cavalry. (41-3)

Ngome is razed.
(IT) We survive the stack of 5 cavalry. 3 are dead, and 1 injured. We lose 1 pike. (44-4)

The AI lands a stack of 3 longbows by undefended Sardis.


510 AD
I killed 3 longbows, 1 impi, 2 cavalry, and 4 knights. I lost 1 immortal and 1 knight. (53-6)
The bad news is one of the invading longbows is still alive.

We have NO saltpeter, and no visible sources on the map anywhere.
(IT) I lost 1 injured immortal, and this one made me happy. That longbow behind the lines ignored the city and I keep the core safe now. (53-7)
However, the cavalry onslaught is getting brutal. I lost 1 immortal and 2 pikeman for nothing back. (53-10)


520 AD
I killed 2 merc, 1 longbow, and 3 cavalry. (59-10)
(IT) The meltdown has begun.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-799.jpg


I lost 1 pikeman, and some catapults.

==========================

Summary:
I am posting this with nothing move in 530 AD. With the lost of the luxury we can't raise the luxury tax high enough to keep our citizens working with 0% science. IMHO this is a lost cause. The tech hole is too severe and to many AIs have fast units. We are screwed on the critical saltpeter.

I have NO clue how to win this at this point.


Signed up:
Greebley (currently playing)
Handy900 (on deck)
ThERat (skip May 5th to May 22nd)
Bead_head7
Northern Pike
LKendter

I agree with LK with respect to the lost cause. If "felt" lost on my turns also based on AW wins and losses in the past.

This looked like a good map early on, but then became a tough map to advance on.

AWDG is a tough game. If you can't knock out a foe early in the game as we did in GR04 it gets tough to get a good push going. If you are not gaining ground in AW you are losing. Just holding onto real estate is usually a bad sign.

The holding pattern is another thing that bothered me. We had 10% world pop in 1000 BC and that is where we are still at.

I agree. I am not at all suprised this is the case - we have been stalled too long as others have stated. We are not going to suddenly be able to make progress now that things have gotten harder.

Do people want to try again? I still want a Demigod win without a free settler.

This may come as a surprise, but I don't think I can commit to another SG at the moment. Unfortunate result here, but not a big surprise.

I will give it one more try. I hope this time the empire can keep expanding.

If you are not gaining ground in AW you are losing.

Yes, that sums it up. I have no objection to our abandoning this one.

I'd be glad to give it another try. Clearly Persia is an excellent AW civ, despite this result.

too bad on the loss, there were too many Civ's on our continent I feel. And, again I think it's better to meet AI earlier rather than later. War mode slows them down a lot.

I would be game for another one once I am back.

I need a pass on the next one. I'm trying to stay at 1 to 2 SG's for the summer and SGOTM is starting soon. Good Luck. :D

Is it possible that we've been placing too much importance on the Great Library in some of these recent games? Normally I consider the "400 shields will buy a lot of Immortals" argument to be superficial, but since getting stalled seems to be fatal in AW with or without the GL, perhaps there's something to be said for it.

Thinking it through, the only unambiguous benefit we derived from the GL in this game was access to pikemen. The transition from despotism to monarchy wasn't a huge immediate improvement, and knights may not have been cost-effective at two and a third Immortals each.

For civs other than Persia, I think the extra swords don't help much. You do want the power of the knights and MDI and pikes. This game we didn't get Gunpowder from the GLib which is unusual. Also one often gets Construction from the GLib which is a required tech.

For Persia, with its 4 attack with swords - well that may be one civ I could see this argument for. Basically, with that UU you want to be advancing the same time you build the GLib. If however your advancement stalls, you are then doomed without the GLib. You will be too far behind.

In this game we met too many Civs all within a short period of time. This led to needing a lot of units so we had no research. That makes the GLib less useful compounded by not getting Gunpowder or Chemistry. (getting Chem means a quick jaunt to Cavalry which are definitely worthwhile). I consider stalling in tech generallly fatal.

-------------------------------------------------------

This leads to the question: Do we want to try Persia again or another civ?.
I am open to either. If you have an opinion on the civ then post it.

I'd like to try Persia again.

too bad on the loss, there were too many Civ's on our continent I feel. And, again I think it's better to meet AI earlier rather than later. War mode slows them down a lot.

The core AW issue that I don't think has even truly been decided. I hate what we had in this game with meeting 2 civs at the same time. All of my strongest AW wins had been were one civ was beat a bit before meeting the second.

All of my strongest AW wins had been were one civ was beat a bit before meeting the second.

Absent a geography that you can exploit such as a choke point or an island map I think this is a big key at AWE & higher. Other keys that come to mind are access to fresh water, plenty of food, hills you can settle on to advance your front, a narrow front, and access to iron, lack of AI access to iron.

lack of AI access to iron.
That is where is got screwed this game. We saw Zulu MDI, Gallic Swords, Knights from several civs and Cavalry from at least two. AW does the best when you have at least one lame civ sending longbows. The Ottomans where a bit lame, but we still had 3 strong civs.

I am thinking of starting Gr6 after my current glut of SG's is taken care of.

All of my strongest AW wins had been were one civ was beat a bit before meeting the second. I think it isn't that easy to say. In HNDY15 we met 2 Civ's at once and are able to defeat them. I think resources and luxes play a huge role in AW.
I this game we had all AI's somehow access to all resources it seems. That is a killer.

Greebley: please take me in for GR6


just a comment: went to a german bookshop yesterday and saw some CIV IV screenshots myself...no comments...we can only hope the gameplay is spendid... :sad:

No, I think it is fair to hope that graphics improve as well. It looks pretty awful as is. But the game isn't finished yet, so things will surely look better come November.

Ya, I was counting on you ThERat :)

I got two more games to play and I will start.

I started up GR6.

Here is the link. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118850)