View Full Version : Was Austria a German state??
bloodofages Apr 24, 2005, 10:16 AM Prussia and Bavaria(SP) was German kingdoms, and i am not sure what other German state thier was. Was Austria a German state that neven joined to form the German Empire? If Austria did join with the German Empire how big would they be? Sorry for asking a stupid question, i just do not know if it was.
~Corsair#01~ Apr 24, 2005, 10:20 AM Austria (or the Austro-Hungarian empire (http://www.croatia-in-english.com/images/maps/aus-map.jpg)) was ethnically German and German speaking, but didn't join the union.
calgacus Apr 24, 2005, 11:09 AM Austria was a German state, but even as the permanent president of the German Confederation in the 19th century, its ruler still controlled more non-German territories than German territories, so joining the German Empire was not possible, unless of course the Austro-Hungarian "Empire" were to have been dismantled. After 1918, that wasn't an issue, and the new Austrian Republic voted to join Germany, but the Allies prevented it. The Nazis reunited them in the '30s, but after WWII, the Allies decided to split them up again and promote a separate Austrian identity which hitherto had not really existed.
Louis XXIV Apr 24, 2005, 05:23 PM Austria was a German Kingdom and part of the Holy Roman Empire. However, being ruler of the HRE didn't mean much, so they worked on expanding their own power. Prussia did the same and they became the two largest German kingdoms. Bismark of Prussia worked hard to reduce Austrian role in the German states and became the dominant power. Than, with a war with France, united the German states under Prussian rule.
Austria became a German state controlling a lot of other ethnicities (Hungarians, Romanians, Serbs, etc) and, after dealing with a lot of nationalism, gave a lot of power to Hungary (becoming the Austro-Hungarians). After WWI, they were split up into many countries, so they essentially became an independant German state.
Adler17 Apr 25, 2005, 01:22 AM After the end of the HRE and the end of Napoleon as French emperor Austria like all other German joined the German confederation. In 1848 there was a revolution in Germany. In Frankfurt am Main the German national assembly was introduced to build up a united Germany. Due to other European countries, a war with Denmark, in which the German forces had to retreat only because of the other powers, and the question what to do with Austria this revolution failed. Austria was a German state but had big parts of non ethnic Germans, Hungarians, Polish, Romanians, Croats,... What to do witgh them. There were three ways. One was the integration of all of them into the German Reich. That was seen as impossible to do so. Because the Austrians didn´t want to give up their holdings out of Germany (so called Großdeutsche Lösung (Great German solution)), they stopped all of the works of the assembly nearly. When the constitution was ready, excluding Austria (Kleindeutsche Lösung (Small German Solution)), the Revolution failed.
Bismarck was no friend of this parliament but he saw it was neccessary to unite Germany. That´s why he wanted to avoid the errors made. Austria was still not willing to join Germany. So it had to be expelled. The other powers had also to accept Germany united and also the anti Prussian resistance in some German states had to be crushed. The first war Bismarck had to do was the 2nd German- Danish war in 1864, this time together with Austria to solve the Schleswig- Hostein question. Then he managed it to make treaties with Britain and Russia to accept a united Germany. But at first Austria had to be expelled totally. So in 1866 there was the 7 weeks war which lead to a fast Prussian victory, a total Austrian defeat and a French diplomatic defeat. Now, 1867, all German states united in the North German federation, still without the South German states, Baden, Württemberg, Hessen and Bavaria. Only the French were resisting a German state. It came to war in 1870. The rest is history.
Austria stopped being a German state at the time they chose to keep their territories out of Germany. At least in 1866 you can´t say that Austria was a German state since they refused the unification. Until then Austria was German. But only until then.
Adler
Doc Tsiolkovski Apr 25, 2005, 04:36 AM Because the Austrians didn´t want to give up their holdings out of Germany (so called Großdeutsche Lösung (Great German solution)), they stopped all of the works of the assembly nearly.
Which of course was the intention of Prussia ;).
Let's not forget the HRE until its end included a lot of non-Germanic territories - Savoy, Bohemia, Limbourg for example - but excluded the larger part of Prussia. East and West Prussia, in general nearly everything which is Polish today (not Silesia, of course).
Austria, OTOH, did have holdings outside the HRE - but most of them were not considered integral parts of "Austria". Bohemia, Moravia, Slovenija, N Italy were technically German.
So, it would have been very easy to find a special ruling for Hungary, and call all the other holdings 'German' again (since they were it some decades ago anyway).
But, that would have meant that Prussia takes the backseat...
The real difference between Prussia and Austria in the 19th cnetury was not the "klein/großdeutsche" question. It was just that Austria was honorable enough to no longer pretend to act "In the name of Germany" (maybe because the Habsburger simply grew tired about that job).
Prussia, which cared a * about Germany OTOH picked up that parole at the very moment Bismarck realized he could no longer simply occupate the remaining non-Prussian states (have a look at the maps of 1815 and 1870 - there wasn't much left but the Bavaria/Baden/Würtemberg) without a longlasting opposition of any neighboring countries and resistance in those new territories.
So, calling that whole thing a German Kaiserreich and making it impossible for the remaining states to not join did the job as well.
Louis XXIV Apr 25, 2005, 01:36 PM One reason I heard that Austria didn't want to be part of a united Germany is because, in many ways, nationalism was their enemy. Even German nationalism could inspire nationalism among their subjects, so it was in their interest to keep a loose German confederation, instead of a German Nation-state.
Adler17 Apr 26, 2005, 01:36 AM A Bavarian must say so ;). As a Prussian I have to correct you in some points. What was German territory in the 19th century? As we see on the map of Europe the German Confederation Germany (red border) was considered to be Germany in the border of 1871 except Alsace- Lothringia, West and East Prussia, Posen and Schleswig but with Luxemburg, Bohemia, Moravia, Austria (with South Tyrol) and parts of Slovenia. These "foreign" parts of Germany were considered in these times as German because belonging to Germany for centuries. So Prague and Triest were considered German in Germany at least.
This in mind it is obvious that minority problems were still sure with the Great German solution. However it was considered to give the minorities autonomy. But Austria didn´t want to move. It wanted to keep the status quo against the wishes of the majority. Germany was already also for Austria a ball in the great political game in Europe. This was the reason why Austria was excluded. Prussia was in the ranking of the German states in that time only 2nd. But they had a politician who knew that Germany was in danger and never had the chances to live in peace until it is not united. So it was clear after 1864 that Prussia and Austria would have to fight. Bismarck saw the neccessarity of unification. He tried to avoid wars but completely was not possible. So he managed it to exclude Austria formally de facto since Austria was not interested in a united Germany.
So indeed it was Bismarck who cared about both, Prussia and Germany, while most of the others, including the mentally ill Ludwig II., did not care about Germany. But a Bavarian will never understand that, damning Ludwig for taking Bismarck´s money ;) .
Adler
The Last Conformist Apr 26, 2005, 04:27 AM Prussia and Bavaria(SP) was German kingdoms, and i am not sure what other German state thier was.
Besides Austria, Prussia and Bavaria, there was a host of smaller ones. The less forgettable ones included Saxony, Hesse, Mecklenburg, Hanover, the Rhenish Palatinate. There were also a pile of Imperial Cities, like Lübeck, Hamburg, and Frankfurt, and ecclesiastical territories, like Cologne, Liège (now in Belgium) and Salzburg.
Over the centuries, alot of splitting and merging went on, to ensure further confusion.
Adler17 Apr 26, 2005, 10:46 AM Before the so called Reichsdeputationshauptschluß (sorry can´t translate that monster), the dissolving of the ecclesian countries, there were over 300 German states. After 1815 there were only 38 IIRC. Big kingdoms and Grand Duchies but also small republics, like Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck. This was lowered after 1866. In 1871 Germany had these federal states:
Prussia
Saxony
Bavaria
Württemberg
Baden
Elsaß- Lothringen (Imperial territory (Like Washington DC)
Hessen
Oldenburg
Waldeck
Braunschweig
Anhalt
Lippe- Detmold
Schaumburg- Lippe
Bremen
Lübeck
Hamburg
Mecklenburg- Strelitz
Mecklenburg- Schwerin
Thuringian states:
Sachsen- Eisenach
Sachsen- Meiningen
Sachsen- Coburg- Gotha
Sachsen Altenburg
Schwarzburg- Rudolstadt
Schwarzburg- Sondershausen
Reuß older Lineage (Reuß- Greiz)
Reuß younger lineage (Reuß- Gera)
Alder
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