COTM 12 - Arabia

The ansar warrior was always one of my favorite UUs, so I figured it was about time to take them for a spin again.

Its Monarch, you have a great UU (IMHO), so do you really need a great starting location? ;)

Civilization: Arabs.
Difficulty:: Monarch.
World:: Standard, Continents, 60% Ocean, 3 Billions.
Climate:: Arid, Warm.
Barbarians:: Restless.
Goody Huts:: Workers, not settlers.
Rivals:: 7 pre-selected.

Starting maps:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm12large.jpg

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm12mini.jpg

Conquest class bonus:

Total Starting Cash in Treasury: 20 units of gold.
Extra Units: An extra scout
Knowledge: The knowledge of the Wheel (in addition to Pottery & Ceremonial Burial).


Predator class equalisers:

AI Unit Support: AI unit support increased to Emperor level.
Barb Attack Bonus: Removed.
Knowledge: Your people are backward. You thought they knew pottery, but that was just mud-hut building.

wow so much desert...

I 2nd that :(

Too bad were not agricultural... :(

This is actually my favorite UU, if there are resources to use it (am I paranoid), so maybe another attempt at Fastest Conquest. Of course, 60% ocean means lots and lots of conquesting.

I can't see making a decision to move the settler until I move the scout. Before I even do that, I'd want to know if the water to the north is a lake or a coast. If lake I can see moving 1N, if not I can see moving 1E or 1SE. I think it likely that my worker will starting mining/roading the oasis right away.

I going to have my scout check out that SE water before I settle. Could be a FP maybe with wheat. If not I agree with A'AA, settle in place and start mine/road on the NE oasis.

Researching the Wheel to locate horses will be a priority if no Japan in the game. After that, trying for Republic slingshot, but that's a lot of techs to research to get it from where we start.

Am I paranoid or is there incense 2 NW and 1 W of the starting scout?

I, too, see something 2NW,W. There also appears to be something 2E,NE. There appear to be plains to the S,SE, which will be good for growth once irrigated. I think heading one or two steps SE would be best, assuming that is fresh water that way.

I don't think you're paranoid Ginger_Ale, I'm pretty sure that is incense. As for settling, I'm thinking of settling 1N, but I'll be sure to check what the water is first.

Not another desert start?! And another 60% world? Short of reliable options offered by the Scout, I'll be heading south-ish for those plains and that forest that are just visible. The oases will make a nice 2nd city location, but not much good for churning out settlers.

Not another desert start?! I felt sorry for the COTM-only players who might have missed the Rome start. ;)

I think I will settle at the spot. The question is where to send a scout. Too many apportunities :hmm:
Most likely n nw.

Oasis is the same as bonus grassland, but the rest of the tiles are useless.

Judging by the minimap, we can expect jungle to the north and desert to the east & west. So the most promising land is to the south.

I will move the settler SE, giving my scout 2 turns to find better terrain before I have to decide whether to settle or walk.

You're getting progressively more sadistic, Ainwood. I like it. :p

Renata

You're getting progressively more sadistic, Ainwood. I like it. :p

Renata
:blush: :nono: :love: :goodjob: :ar15: :cooool:
Anyway, what about Renata's second map?

@Xevious: I think that's just coastline 2E,NE. There are 2 Incense to the W/NW. I don't use this graphics mod, so I may be wrong, but is it marsh to 2N,NE? (so precious grassland beneath...) As long as the pond E,SE isn't a coastal extension and is actually fresh, I count 12 food available assuming irr deserts, mined oases, and using 2 freshwater. So it is possible to settle in place; after changing gov't, irr the oases and grow beyond 6. Maybe not the best option there, but food for thought. A lot depends on initial scout findings here.

Amendment to above: If the water to N and NW is fresh as well, there is sufficient food after irrigation to grow beyond 6, not counting the hills (mined, they're more productive than irrigated deserts).

Does anyone know if the workers from huts are Arab, or slave?

I am new to Conquests, but have been playing Civ a long time. This "Republic slingshot" is a new term to me. What is it? How does it work? Is there someplace here on the forum where I can read up on it?

I am new to Conquests, but have been playing Civ a long time. This "Republic slingshot" is a new term to me. What is it? How does it work? Is there someplace here on the forum where I can read up on it?
DaveMcW's article here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90177) tells you all you need to know. :)

:blush: :nono: :love: :goodjob: :ar15: :cooool:
Anyway, what about Renata's second map?

Coming up in June or thereabouts, I believe. It's not sadistic at all. Well, except for one or two things. :cooool:

Renata

Nasty start, Ainwood. Besides the 2 oasis, there is only useless land... :(
I may go on a long trek with my settler, so the scout may prove to be very useful indeed....

On a sidenote...: This seems rather familiar to me. Wasn't the Arabs GOTM (number 23, IIRC) also a desert start?

In a dramatic break with (recent) tradition, the conquest class bonus and predator class equalisers are posted in the first post.

Taking away Pottery from the Predator players... interesting move. Means neighbours don't know it(?) and as usual the nearest huts will be miles away?

looks like a tough start, i would probably be best off moving the settler around and finding a solid peice of land to start out on first

I missed out on GOTM 42 due to lack of time. I have to get COTM11 finished so I can submit it in time. I'm thinking about moving the settler (after looking around with the worker NE to the oasis and then the scout somewhere else) to the E and settle there.

EDIT:::That way the forest to the SE can come into the cities radius.

I would walk in some direction for 10 turns max, if i'd find no normal ground, i would abandon the game and wait for the next gotm :p

I am retired though, so don't need to walk 10 turns. :D

A thousand pardons sahib, but can you spare any pita bread?

Now I am thinking about moving my settler se. There is a forest s se se which will become available in this case and I need it to speed up granary build

I also plan to play open (my performance is declining so rapidly that I should do something about it).

My worker will mine and road se oazis.

But before moving worker and settler I will move my scout. I want to see a big picture on the first turn, so I need to move settler by two tiles and end up on a hill. This leaves three possibilities:
1. nw n or n nw
2. ne e or e ne
3. s e or e s
What shell I choose?
1st direction may bring us to a shore giving just a sea view.
2nd hill looks surrounded by other hills and other desert tiles.
3rd hill has a forest nearby and also it is reasonable to expect slightly better climate in southern direction. So I plan to move my scout in 3rd direction. Now s-e or e-s?
I do not really know, I do not see any difference :confused: .

My first build will be another scout, then I do not know, maybe another scout or a granary.

Research alphabet on maximum then writing. Then I do not know, since we are religious I probably will be choosing between Republic and Monarchy slingshots depending on what will be available sooner.

What are the qualities of the Arabian civilization? To simplify discussion, could someone post the information here, please?

Iver-P, the Arabs are religious expansionists. Their UU is the Ansar, which replaces the Knight.

If the water 2n and 2nw are ocean, I will move the scout east-south and hope to see a better spot for the capital southward within 5 tiles of the start. If that's an odd-shaped lake N/NW...I will have to rethink it. :hmm:

Builds...scout/warrior/granary/warrior/settler initial builds if capital is landlocked. If seaside, scout/warrior/curragh/granary/warrior/settler...with chop(s) placed for maximum advantage. This assumes I've got some breathing room from the nearest neighbor (hopefully not those darn Greeks).

Research...typical Republic slingshot. Will trade or scout for bronzeworking so my second city can begin Colossus right away.

It's a shame to abandon the spice but I can't afford a lot of desert in a small (2-5 city) republic 20K build. Always possible there is better land just beyond the spice, but the trees to the south look more promising.

cas

Judging by the minimap, we can expect jungle to the north and desert to the east & west. So the most promising land is to the south.

why is this the case? isn't it possible that jungle is to the south while some fertile lands can be found north to the start beyond those hills?

I think he's basing that on the typical pattern found on random maps. Usually there's jungle at the equator even on arid maps, and by the minimap, we're very close to the equator. (Maybe 10 tiles south of it at most? Which would put the jungle pretty close.) This won't be a fully random map, of course, so DaveMcW could be wrong, but it's not a bad guess.

South is likely to be plains rather than grassland, but it's still better than desert or jungle.

I am a bit tempted by the prospect of a potential narrow strip of grassland to the north, but probably not enough to go looking for it. Not sure yet.

Edit: had a closer look at the screenshot once I realized I'm at a better monitor than the one I have at home. That is a marsh tile N N NW. East of there is all hills. West of the marsh is another hill surrounded NE and SW by what looks to be arms of either the ocean or a large lake (NW of that hill is more water). So north really does look very bad.

Edit again: As of right now I'm thinking settler SE. The scout will move first, of course; this is assuming he finds nothing of interest. I'm I have no idea yet exactly where the scout will go. SE is still on freshwater and can still work the same two oasis tiles (culture expansion will grab the second one just in time) and the same two lakes, so nothing's lost but time. I doubt I'll move further than that unless the scout finds significantly better territory on its second move: two bonus-grass equivalents and two lake tiles is enough to be getting started with on Monarch, even if it's not great.

Renata

Of course, I know better than to make such assumptions on maps made by Renata. :p

I think I might scout E NE with my worker if the scout doesn't find anything S. Settler SE, like most people seem to go.

Am I the only one who thinks building the city right away and not moving the settler is not THAT bad? :confused:
Very likely I won't even go for the "coast"...
The Oasis helps a lot IMHO and once you build your city you can build and expand, right?!?
Concerning production:
scout/granary/warrior/scout or settler and then...?!?
I apologize beforehand if I will get on your nerves with questioning obviously correct assumptions during this COTM (This will be my first one! :D )

First two builds will be Scouts. Then Warrior, Settler. Then a third Warrior, then a Granary. By which time I'll have seen a lot more of the map and will have changed my mind!

Of course, I know better than to make such assumptions on maps made by Renata. :p

People have such distorted opinions of me. I don't know why. *shakes head sadly*

Renata

That has to be one of the worst starting locations I have even seen. There is no question we have to move away from that disaster spot. The challenge is how to decide north or south. Both directions hint at better land.

After blowing up the picture I agree with the incense spotting toward NNW. This reduces the hope of useful land to the north. I plan to move the scout to the hill SE and plan from there. I am still suspicious if south or north will make that much of a difference. I would find it hard to believe a competition game could have a large variance based on heading north or south.



Now I wish I had play the current COTM even with the "challenges". At least the start was good.

When not sure which direction to go, it may be best just to settle right on the spot.;)

Long time no see, Moonsinger.

Along with DaveMcW it looks like the old dinosaurs are returning ;)

So, are there any general strategies for playing an expansionist civ?

Long time no see, Moonsinger.

Along with DaveMcW it looks like the old dinosaurs are returning ;)

I agree. Moonsigner used to be a legend for me, it is wierd to see 'em in the real time.

So, are there any general strategies for playing an expansionist civ?

General: Use scouts and do not afraid to step on goody huts.

There are some details too, like temporarely switching production of settlers to something else if you want to pop a settler. But this time we do not get even settelrs, but I guess workers popping should be effected in the same way.
Actualy there was a question, which seems to be unanswered: are popped workers arabians or slaves?

The most important thing about expansionists to me is that it's primarily an Ancient Age trait. The biggest benefit is scouts. Once all of the goody huts are gone and all of the AI on the starting continent are met, you are reduced to being a single trait tribe. For my HOF games, I've started playing with no huts and using expansionist opponents as under those circumstances they are one dimensional opponents. So build at least 2 more scouts and get them out there ASAP. Meet as many AI as possible and try to be the tech broker for your continent. My intent is expand as fast as possible, building horseman in preparation for a mass Ansar upgrade (Ansars are cheaper and faster than standard knights) and then try to take over my continent. That should give me a large enough production & research base to assure victory whichever victory condition I select.

Two thoughts:

1. What if this is a desert ISLAND! ARG!!! Could the COTM "gods" be that cruel to us?

2. Why not just settle 1N? Doesn't that make the desert tile productive. Then you've got the two oasis tiles plus at least one fresh water after the first expansion and the hills for production when you need it. Also the lands to NE and NW might have potential.

As you read this, remember that I rarely score in the top half of the rankings. So maybe I really don't know what I'm talking about.

If goody huts produce workers and not settlers it should slow down the tech race at the start and increase land development capability. Hmmm...could it be a jungle desert world where the key to success is getting your "house" in order with lots of irrigation and mines?

I agree. Moonsigner used to be a legend for me, it is wierd to see 'em in the real time.

Umm, Moonsinger is a "she", actually.... ;)
Though you got the legend part right! :goodjob:

Umm, Moonsinger is a "she", actually....
Umm ... the only pronoun in Solen's post was " 'em ". which is short for "them", and is plural, neutral gender, implying neither male nor female. It was absolutely appropriate since solen was talking about DaveMcW and Moonsinger, who I think are probably male legend and female legend respectively ;)

Umm ... the only pronoun in Solen's post was " 'em ". which is short for "them", and is plural, neutral gender, implying neither male nor female. It was absolutely appropriate since solen was talking about DaveMcW and Moonsinger, who I think are probably male legend and female legend respectively ;)

That's what you get when English is not your native language and you still try to correct someone else's English... :blush:


I'll go hide in my corner now.... ;)

Two thoughts:

1. What if this is a desert ISLAND! ARG!!! Could the COTM "gods" be that cruel to us?

2. Why not just settle 1N? Doesn't that make the desert tile productive. Then you've got the two oasis tiles plus at least one fresh water after the first expansion and the hills for production when you need it. Also the lands to NE and NW might have potential.

As you read this, remember that I rarely score in the top half of the rankings. So maybe I really don't know what I'm talking about.

I dont think it's an island.

The problem with 1N is that you may be placing yourself on the coast with bad terrain to your north. This will not give a very productive core. If you move at least 1 tile S or E you are leaving yourself room for another city on the coast a cxxc with a slightly more productive core.

actually, i can't see it being feasible to settle 1N or 1 SE.

@ 1N, we have at least 5 desert tiles, 6 hills, and possibly 2 coastal tiles. only the oasis tiles look good, but unless there's wines on those hills to the NE or a wheat over the N, NW hill, that spot looks very poor for a capitol

@1SE, we have at least 10 desert tiles, 3 hills, 2 oasis, and 1 lake. i don't see that as very productive either.

seems to me, that moving 2x SE at a minimum is required. my guess is that I'll move at least 3x, maybe 4 before settling (subject to change after the 1st turn :) ). it's a good thing we have a scout.

SE gives the same two oases and the same two lakes as the starting position. I'm assuming the water tile 2 NW of the start is ocean, because it appears to be connected around that hill to the water 2 N of the start. SE there's also a forest to chop with what looks like plains under it, which would mean it could reach size 7 (no aqueduct necessary), unlike the starting position.

N looks like it would be coastal. It would have one grassland tile, ultimately allowing size 8, but only after the marsh is cleared. (Edit: it could get to size 12 with a harbor.) There's no forest, and it would need an aqueduct.

I can't say I like any of the options, but SE seems best to me so far of the options that include no more than a single settler move.

Of course, if the water NW and N turns out to be fresh after all, that changes things a bit.

Renata

Is it proper, in this scenario to mine the oasis under despotism and possilby irrigate it after you change government?

Because it's exactly like a bonus grass tile, yes. I did get a little mixed up in my previous comments between despotism and not-despotism.

Renata

Umm, Moonsinger is a "she", actually.... ;)


I know, she used to be called "civ queen", but where did you see me calling her he :crazyeye: ?

Edit: AlanH explained everything already

actually, i can't see it being feasible to settle 1N or 1 SE.

the problem is you need to settle in the desert sooner or later. if it isn't your capitol, it'll be one of your most productive cities that is going to take those dessert tiles Deleted GOTM 42 spoiler info - AlanH
so my theory is that settle in the starting position or move once in a dessert to instantly improve that tile. we've got 2 bonus grasslands from the oasis and that's enough to run a (12-turn? or whatever) settler-warrior-pump. eventually if you hate your starting location too much, just abandon it so that your core city won't be a ring of cities surrounding a large dessert.

SE gives the same two oases and the same two lakes as the starting position. I'm assuming the water tile 2 NW of the start is ocean, because it appears to be connected around that hill to the water 2 N of the start.


SE there's also a forest to chop with what looks like plains under it, which would mean it could reach size 7 (no aqueduct necessary), unlike the starting position.


where is the river??? there's quite a lot of water (salty or not) arond but i am yet to see a river ;)

btw, what's the bonus of insense? +1 commerce?

settling next to an inland lake removes the requirement for a 'duct too

settling next to an inland lake removes the requirement for a 'duct too
that's good to know! so inland lakes are the lakes not connected to ocean by rivers? ok. this will narrow down the possible 1st city sites a lot...

no, inland lakes are blobs of water (right click shows them as a coastal tile), that do not have sea or ocean tiles adjacent to them. rivers don't count as a connection. there's a rule that limits the size when it goes from an inland lake (no duct) to inland sea (duct required), but i don't recall what that is. as far as I can see from ainwood's pic, the lake to our E or SE is probably inland lake (single tile only)

The limit for fresh water lakes is 22 tiles, but I don't think whether there are sea tiles or not affects it.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for SirPleb's analysis so I know what my starting moves will be :p

Anyway, I'm still waiting for SirPleb's analysis so I know what my starting moves will be :p

Sir Pleb seems to be AWOL so you'll have to settle for DaveMcW. :) Plenty good for me.

Adding to his comments and Renata's:

Worker north-east. Assuming this doesn't discover anything remarkable (which I don't expect it to). Next the scout goes south then probably east. Finally settler south-east. I expect to settle on this spot. Two BG equivalents and a plains is good enough for me. That's 2 1/2 warriors + a settler every ten turns, going from size 2 to 4. Not so shabby.

However, as Dave says, the scout will get one more move before a final decision.


One point to mull over: workers popped from goody huts (who, by the way, are native) are not really very useful, especially when they are far from home. It may be a good idea to reverse the normal trick and put settlers into your build queue when popping a hut. This ensures you get something else.

One point to mull over: workers popped from goody huts (who, by the way, are native) are not really very useful, especially when they are far from home. It may be a good idea to reverse the normal trick and put settlers into your build queue when popping a hut. This ensures you get something else.

I don't think building or having a settler blocks getting a worker from a hut. It hasn't in other games with this switch.

If you don't want to march a worker home, use it to explore until something kills it. Think of it as a slow scout.

Does having a worker in the queue block getting a worker then?

I don't think building or having a settler blocks getting a worker from a hut. It hasn't in other games with this switch.

If you don't want to march a worker home, use it to explore until something kills it. Think of it as a slow scout.


I think we need some clarification here from the stuff. Does settler production in one of the cities block worker appearance from a hut or it does not?
If it does, than IMHO reverse trick suggested by Abegweit is a very good idea. I remember that in Mongol game, one of the workers had to move home about 20 turns and I paid gpt for this guy (I poped two or three workers in that game, I wish they were settlers). I did not like the idea of using a worker as a slow scout, I had enough fast ones.

I can't see that building a worker would stop it. Consider that the rule would also kick in if you had a worker in the field.

Arrrr, DaveMcW, Moonsinger... I love playing against the champs, but they always defeat me horribly. Deleted GOTM 42 spoiler info - AlanH I may take a lesson and try to be less hike-happy with the settler. Maybe I'll see what open does to my score... I don't think I've ever tried it!

I thought you had to actually have a settler to stop from popping one (I'm probably wrong here). And, like it's been said, would a worker prevent a worker from popping? Probably not if the game is not coded that way.

I have found a method to peer just a bit further into the fog of the opening screen shots, and btw any screen shot of CIV3. I can't say it reveals anything astounding on COTM12. But it could be possible to reveal a resource that is not clearly visible without the technique. I assume others have figured this out. I'm usually not the first with anything around here.

Questions:
1. Is it documented?
2. Are people doing it?
3. Is it legal in GOTM?
4. Should this discussion even be here in pre-game?

resources don't show up until you get the the wheel or iron working, so do you mean luxuries?

@MeteorPunch

If you have a settler, whether in production or in the field, you will not get another settler from a GH. This has been confirmed by Firaxis.

M-B has discovered that it is possible to replace getting settlers from GHs by getting workers. OK. The question is how this change affects the rule.

Being a software engineer myself, I would say that there are only two possibilities (anything else would require deliberate - and strange - programmer coding). Given that X is some unit which is affected by opening a GH.

Either

a) having X in production and X in the field prevents X from being produced (where X is ether a settler or a worker or somethinelse...).

or

b) having settlers (or some unit with the settler flag) in production or settlers in the field prevents X from being produced.

As I clearly remember a violation of rule A and do not believe that any programmer would ever invent any rule other than these two, my conclusion is that workers cannot be produced while settlers are around. This means that CKS is wrong and that no workers have ever been gained by GHs while settlers existed. I could be wrong. I would welcome a counter-example.

resources don't show up until you get the the wheel or iron working, so do you mean luxuries?
oops - you are correct.

Responding to Abegweit: There is 99% chance that we'll *have* a worker, so it seems the only option would be a switch to settler before popping the hut. Thanks for the info.

Oops, missed the last page.

Well, since we don't know for sure, do both, and then you're guaranteed to get the effect, if it exists. Before you pop a hut, have a worker And a settler in a queue somewhere. Though you'll surely have a worker somewhere on the board.

@Jove

This would work. However... remember that the rule is that you can't have an "X" in production or in the field.

When was the last game you played without a worker?

I have found a method to peer just a bit further into the fog of the opening screen shots, and btw any screen shot of CIV3. I can't say it reveals anything astounding on COTM12. But it could be possible to reveal a resource that is not clearly visible without the technique. I assume others have figured this out. I'm usually not the first with anything around here.

Questions:
1. Is it documented?
2. Are people doing it?
3. Is it legal in GOTM?
4. Should this discussion even be here in pre-game?
Well I have not figured that....so at the very least your not the last person too....

it looks like the old dinosaurs are returning

But in their absense, hairy creatures have grown strong!

I have found a method to peer just a bit further into the fog of the opening screen shots, and btw any screen shot of CIV3. I can't say it reveals anything astounding on COTM12. But it could be possible to reveal a resource that is not clearly visible without the technique. I assume others have figured this out. I'm usually not the first with anything around here.

Questions:
1. Is it documented?
2. Are people doing it?
3. Is it legal in GOTM?
4. Should this discussion even be here in pre-game?

Fog-gazing is a traditional part of the pre-game discussion. All you can do with the starting image is to manipulate the pixels that are there, and they are available to all players. So, yes, it's legal and you are free to discuss it if you wish.

I can't tell you whether your method is documented or if people are doing it your way, 'cos I don't know how you are doing it. But with Photoshop you can play with the pixels to enhance contrast or color or whatever. Better monitors are sufficient sometimes to show things that others don't. And some players have used the editor in the past to try to reproduce the exact pixel patterns they see on the edges of the fog.

BTW, if we are being pedantic, "resource" is a valid term to cover both "strategic resources" and "luxury resources". See the Civilopedia. :mischief:

M-B has discovered that it is possible to replace getting settlers from GHs by getting workers. OK. The question is how this change affects the rule.

...

This means that CKS is wrong and that no workers have ever been gained by GHs while settlers existed. I could be wrong. I would welcome a counter-example.

In SGOTM 5, huts gave workers, not settlers. We (team jeffelammar) inquired, and mad-bax replied that the hut workers were not the same as the regular workers. Since the hut worker unit can't be built, we couldn't keep from popping them. I don't know if having a hut worker already prevents popping a second one. I don't think we ever tried to test it, but mad-bax apparently has.

Here is the link to the thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105351
It is at the very end of the page.

But in their absense, hairy creatures have grown strong!

:lol: Diese Satz hat mir sehr gefallen

But I'm afraid it's only relative. When the dinosaurs move, the earth trembles and hairy creatures have to duck.

Can some one explain how you abandon a city? Does your largest remaining city become the capital?

The simplest way to abandon a city is to right click-it and choose the option. A more economical way is to build or hurry workers or settlers while having zero growth (no extra food).

In principle the largest city would become the new capitol. But it's more complicated in detail: it also takes in account the size of the garison, the number of native citizens, the number of nearby cities. There an article on the subject somewhere.


Edit:
Found the article: it's in war academy and written by DaveMcW.

BTW, if we are being pedantic, "resource" is a valid term to cover both "strategic resources" and "luxury resources". See the Civilopedia. :mischief:

If we want to be really pedantic, it cover "bonus resources" like cattle and gold as well.

Now, for the benefit of those of us (me) who stink at fog-gazing, does somebody want to clue me in on what they think they see and where they think they see it?

I don't know if having a hut worker already prevents popping a second one.

It doesn't. In Mongol game i popped more than one worker and I did not kill any of them.

However, Abegweit's logic is appealing to me and I will presume that the worker appearence is blocked by a settler existence/production.
If it is not so, it will simply not work.

BTW popped workers are indeed native, otherwise I wouldn't pay gpt for them.
Actualy for this reason I would prefer them being slaves, then maybe I would indeed use them as slow, but free scouts, otherwise I will try to avoid popping them.

But in their absense, hairy creatures have grown strong!

:rotfl:

You win the Internet. *bows*

Renata

It doesn't. In Mongol game i popped more than one worker and I did not kill any of them.

However, Abegweit's logic is appealing to me and I will presume that the worker appearence is blocked by a settler existence/production.
If it is not so, it will simply not work.

Abegweit believes that examples have occurred that disprove option (a) in his post, leaving only option (b). However .....

M-B is reported to have said that the workers popped from huts are not standard workers. Those of us who play vanilla GOTMs are aware of the "eqWorker" which behaves like a worker in almost all respects, but can't be sold. It's designed to equalise the change in worker pricing between vanilla and PtW. Another small but significant difference is that an eqWorker will not respond to a stack move command applied to a stack of workers. He has to be moved individually. This demonstrates that the game doesn't consider him to be "equal" to a worker.

If the unit popped from a hut is a pseudo-worker and not a real worker, then Abegweit's option (a) could be true, the game would not recognise the hut worker as being equal to an existing real worker, and so the existence of real workers would have no effect on whether a pseudo-worker was popped from a hut.

That would leave both options still feasible.

As another programmer, I think the logic of Abegweit's option (a) is more likely to have been implemented than option (b), so I would hazard a guess that building a settler, or a real worker, would have no effect on popping a pseudo-worker from a hut.

Now, for the benefit of those of us (me) who stink at fog-gazing, does somebody want to clue me in on what they think they see and where they think they see it?

OK here is what I see:
N NW NW - coast
W NW NW - some kind of resource, or is it just swamp or jungle?
W W NW - plains or grassland?
E E NE - water
N N NE - I think it is just hills

Only a couple days and we will be able to see if I am right.

As to the method used, I could explain it or post a modified graphic, if we agree it would not be considered to be a spoiler.

Maybe the discussion of fog-gazing methods should go elsewhere.

@IverP: I agree with those except N N NE looks like swamp to me. I can tell these just by looking at them.

Iver-P and MeteorPunch: Like I said, I stink at fog-gazing, but I thought for sure I had correctly called N N NE as swamp (as MeteorPunch suggests).

W NW NW = incense

/Mr Flatscreen

W W NW looks quite like hill/mountain to me.
good hint about the incense! I would have probably missed it...

I'd wager that the tile W, W, NW is hills with incense, and the incense W, NW, NW is on desert.

@Ainwood - Just in case: there are 30 days in Aptil.

Ainwood has delegated to me this month, so it's anybody's guess when it'll be released. :mischief:

Now, for the benefit of those of us (me) who stink at fog-gazing, does somebody want to clue me in on what they think they see and where they think they see it?

I stink at foggazing too, but I'll tell you guys anyhow what I think it is that surrounds us. Starting due North and then clockwise:

? , swamp , wooded grass , wooded grass , grass , lake , ? , desert , desert , hill , wooded plains , plains , ? , desert , desert , desert , desert , desert , ? , hill/incense , desert/incense , coast , coast , coast.

Opening moves:
I will settle in place, build scout, granary, settler and then probably a repetition of warrior, warrior and settler. Until it's time to jump the palace. The only improvement around Mecca will be mine/roading the oases. It will give 5 shields total at the sizes 2, 3 and 4 when working the lakes at sizes 3 and 4. That gives 50 shields and 2 pop in ten turns.

Not being a fog gazer, is it possible that those desert tiles to the SW are flood plains or would I be able to see the food dots? May be worth the first scout move to find out.

@A'AA
To check if there are floodplains to the SW you could step 2 tiles SW with the scout. If one or more of those 3 SW deserttiles which can be examined are floodplains, it's worth stepping 1 SW with the settler. It could give you a 6-turn settler-factory for Mecca.

So it's not a bad idea investigating it.

Edit:
The same applies for the deserttiles to the SE and stepping the settler 1 E.

Elaborating on A'AA's idea:

It could be interesting to perform the next opening:
scout 2 SW to check if there are fp's around
yes: settler 1 SW and worker 1 NW
no: settler 1 SE and worker 1 NE and second turn scout 2 E to check if there are fp's to the SE.

.... Until it's time to jump the palace....

I've never jumped a palace in C3C. However, it seems like an interesting and decent idea since I usually use my starting city as a settler factory, then my most productive area could become the capital area with a FP built more quickly near the starting location. Hmmm....

The game is released here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117838)

nice! time to play! :)

I wouldn't know. It's 03:00 in the morning here. Time to sleep!

It looks like Alan stayed up late. What time was it when you posted the notice. 2:14 AM? Thanks! What a guy!

I decided to move settler once SE....


<slight spoiler removed....>

Congrats with first post, Termitnik!
You already have fastest Space win but arabs are good for conquest/domination. Let's conquer the world!

It will be either space or cow for me, depending on what I see in the first 500 years or so.

Yet again the Predator handicap has me considering playing Open. The competitive part of me hates the idea, but if I spend around 200 hours on a milk run and then miss the cow by 5 points to a good Open player, I may have to kill myself.

I plan to move the scout to the hill 2 SE. If he sees nothing special then I will found on the spot or 1SE. I will have to work out on paper which location will give the quickest settler or granary/settler before deciding which.

I'll be starting on this tonight. My current HOF attempt flamed out and rather than starting another right away, this is a good time to get into this one. Considering we're below the equator, I think I'll send my scout north and see what turns up. For research, The Wheel to find horses (unless Japan is in the game) and then on to the Republic slingshot. I've been debating what victory type to shoot for and since we aren't scientific (and there might not be any in the game), I've decided against Space. Last COTM I played for 20K and I've been playing 100K HOF games lately, so those are out. Diplomatic or war (not enough time for histo) seem to be the most likely options and since I like the Ansars for warring, I think it's down to conquest or domination. I'll probably make that decision once the game is pretty far along. I'm hoping that Ainwood has been kind enough to supply us with horses & iron. That last COTM (Korea # 11) without horses was a nice touch, but being the Arabs without Ansars would be frustrating. I'll probably skip building all the AA wonders (though I might be inclined to capture a couple :evil: )

We have simple rules to make it easy for simple moderators like me to police them.

The simple rules here are:

DO NOT post any game-specific information about any current game in any thread other than a valid spoiler thread for that game. Announcement or Pre-game threads for any game are not valid spoiler threads.

I do not want to have to analyse every post in every thread in this forum to make a decision about whether it's a spoiler for a current game or not. Since I don't even play all the games, that would be an impossible task even if I had nothing else to do with my time. Why is this so difficult to understand?

So now, to remove all the quotes and quote of quotes, I'll delete all the above posts and we can get on with our lives. Sorry if this throws the baby out with the bath water, but if you want a legitimate discussion you'll have to replay it in the appropriate place(s).

[/rant]

Ever so sorry. I'm new, and a bit thick apparantly.

No real harm done. No one died :mischief: