I was mulling-over a suggestion for a new 'feature' for the COTM/GOTM - a Conquest-class support thread.

The basic idea is that when each spoiler is opened, a concurrent support-thread would be opened for conquest-class players. The conquest-class players could post their save files in it, and other players could critique them and offer advice / encouragement / tips / strategies. It would require careful handling to ensure that advice was constructive and not a spoiler for the later game - as a starter, the ony people allowed to offer advice would be those that have already posted their own (relevant) spoiler.

I thought it could be useful in that it is much more of a direct benefit to conquest players than reading other players spoilers, and manageable because of the limited number of players who play this class.

If you are a conquest player, please post here as to whether you'd be interested in this concept, and / or any suggestions that you would make to improve it. Obviously, if there's no interest, then we won't run it. ;)

im no conquest player but i just wanted to say that i think that this is a good idea. :goodjob:

I don't think this is a good idea right now because there are only about ~10 conquest players a month. As it is, only 1/10 or so post in the *actual* spoiler thread. If there was a way to boost participation here, that would be nice. I've just started a meager attempt at doing so in the last couple of games :blush: .

I don't think this is a good idea right now because there are only about ~10 conquest players a month. As it is, only 1/10 or so post in the *actual* spoiler thread. If there was a way to boost participation here, that would be nice. I've just started a meager attempt at doing so in the last couple of games :blush: .
No - the requirement for the spoiler post is for players who want to offer advice. There would be no requirement for the conquest players to post a spoiler (although that would probably help).

The conquest-class players could post their save files in it, and other players could critique them and offer advice / encouragement / tips / strategies.

I like this idea. Currently I pay close attention to those spoilers who are going for the same victory condition I am, and use their spoiler to see how I could have done things differently. This works well but actually having someone checking my game file, QSC timeline, etc. and then stating things they see can be of even more benefit. With this I would possibly take better notes and save games at more strategic/questionable points in order for others to critique my choices.

It would require careful handling to ensure that advice was constructive and not a spoiler for the later game - as a starter, the ony people allowed to offer advice would be those that have already posted their own (relevant) spoiler.

This is the one problem I see with this idea, as some people will have trouble ‘holding back’ with their suggestions. They may suggest I advance/expand in a certain direction due to their knowledge of future resources I am currently unable to view. I do not believe this is something that is strong enough to nix your idea, instead it’ll help more advanced players learn ways to teach us inexperienced players.

I thought it could be useful in that it is much more of a direct benefit to conquest players than reading other players spoilers, and manageable because of the limited number of players who play this class.

While I seriously believe that reading others spoilers is a great learning tool, I would have to agree that a conquest thread would definitely be more beneficial. I like your suggestion and would definitely take part in it. Currently Regent level is the only level I am able to play open class in.

Just curious, how do the numbers compare to say number of hits on conquest save game downloads versus the number of conquest game submissions?

No - the requirement for the spoiler post is for players who want to offer advice. There would be no requirement for the conquest players to post a spoiler (although that would probably help).

Really? I (and some others) shouldn't even be writing in the spoiler in that case. I thought of it as more of a mini-Stories and Tales section.

As it is, only 1/10 or so post in the *actual* spoiler thread.

I have participated in several games where I never post. The reason was my game wasn’t doing very well. Many of those games were conquest class games.

My main point is many of the conquest players (like myself) do not post due to our inexperience or whatever. During GOTM41 I quit due to Roman sneak attacks like many others, but did I post? No. I don’t know why, I just didn’t. With a thread like this there is the possibility it may draw some of the conquest players to post, especially if you get others, like myself, to join in. The first game or so you may only have one or two conquest players posting their games, but what about five or ten games down the road?

One note, in my own experience I’ve found I tend to not finish my conquest class games. With this thread maybe others can show my what I am doing wrong on these hard levels.

Really? I (and some others) shouldn't even be writing in the spoiler in that case. I thought of it as more of a mini-Stories and Tales section.

I believe Ainwood is talking about this thread, not the actual spoiler thread.

One note, in my own experience I’ve found I tend to not finish my conquest class games. With this thread maybe others can show my what I am doing wrong on these hard levels.

Well in this case, these players should be prepared to take record of what they are doing so it can actually be scrutinized. However, if you slow down enough to think about what you're doing, that might solve most the problems :crazyeye: .

Or as a second solution we could just sticky this: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3academy.shtml :D

Anyway, I guess it's worth trying but I don't think participation would be high enough if it was limited to just conquest. It should be available to open players as well.

Anyway, I guess it's worth trying but I don't think participation would be high enough if it was limited to just conquest. It should be available to open players as well.Well, I think low participation will be key to the success. We need conquest players to be given constructive, focused feedback that doesn't get lost in a myriad of posts.

Go on, Ainwood.
Sounds like a good idea, because I think, especially in games with higher levels, some players would participate, that didn't want to, if there was no help.

Sounds like a good idea, because I think, especially in games with higher levels, some players would participate, that didn't want to, if there was no help.

This is true, as I'm still unsure of whether I'll play any game on Emperor or above. I'll at least attempt it up to the QSC mark, but probably not past. With this help I might be willing to attempt to go a little further.

My main point is many of the conquest players (like myself) do not post due to our inexperience or whatever. During GOTM41 I quit due to Roman sneak attacks like many others, but did I post? No. I don’t know why, I just didn’t. With a thread like this there is the possibility it may draw some of the conquest players to post, especially if you get others, like myself, to join in. The first game or so you may only have one or two conquest players posting their games, but what about five or ten games down the road?
Couldn't be said better. I think Ainwood's idea is a great idea for this very reason. I would love to see more players posting and thereby getting better at the game. I would certainly offer all the constructive advice I could, however...
Well, I think low participation will be key to the success. We need conquest players to be given constructive, focused feedback that doesn't get lost in a myriad of posts.
...I would never want to muddle the purpose of the thread. :) Anything that can increase participation in the competition and the threads would be great!

Hello, I'm a conquest class player.

I'm playing my first COTM.

I was planning on posting in the spoilers thread primarily to ask for help. But, I am nervous of doing so because the spoilers threads are big and there's a lot going on with good players admiring each other's skills. For a newbie who sucks, it's kind of intimidating I think.

A dedicated support thread just for me would be lovely, even if no other Conquest class players want help.

I've been reading the war academy and old spoiler threads and cracker's opening moves site, and his disection of the japan campaign. But, then it's the case of taking the theory and putting it into practice in a different game. having my game disected would help me realise what I'm doing wrong.

(But I've still not been wiped out yet, and I am kicking ottoman ass right now so I can't be doing too bad. But I am just waiting for the French and Russians to stop just extorting me and attack...)

The perception (for me) was that the GOTM is hard. And that the people who play it are good. And that the bar for entry is high. Discovering the Conquest class game exists after I decided to play at all made me change my earlier intention (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118058) to play a step "behind" and use the spoilers to help me learn (and thus not submit).

As I'm not doing as badly as I expected, I'm encouraged to keep going (and submit). If the bar for entry in spoiler discussion is lowered by a nice thread to help me see how I could do better, then I'm more likely to post, then eventually contribute in the main spoiler thread and so on.

The main spoiler thread is all very well and good, but, I feel that it's a level above my play. The tips and advice I pick up in there would be very handy, if I could reach the level where I'd use them. AS it is, I'm so poor at playing, the point people are getting advice for approving from is where I need to improve to. Or higher!

So that's a firm yes. And even if there isn't an official one, is there any problem with me starting my own thread asking for help?

Hello.
Since I posted in the Newbie thread along with THEMike and since I'm playing my first COTM as well, I would like to say yes to this idea from Ainwood, too! :crazyeye:
Personally I THOUGHT I would be good enough for the "open" class and I messed up the start like I never messed up a start before. :blush: :cry:
I don't wanna say more since I don't wanna spoil anything yet. I'm still alive and getting along now...

The "regular" spoiler-thread is fine and all, but sometimes it's hard for me to follow their decisions and the reasons behind these decisions.
I didn't plan to post in the spoiler thread since I don't feel I could be of much help to anyone of the pro's :mischief: , but I would like this "Conquest-thread" since I think it would explain reasons, why good players do what they do and I would get an idea why I didn't do what they would have done.
I hope it would be ok to post not only conquest-saves in there since I like the challenge of the open-class (yep, for ME that's a challenge :p ), but this "spoiler for beginners" would definitely be helpful, because you get a more direct feedback to your very own gameplay.

Ergo: Yep; good idea!

So that's a firm yes. And even if there isn't an official one, is there any problem with me starting my own thread asking for help?
It looks like there's little danger of that from the positive response! Ainwood's idea looks like it will fly.

In general, it's not a good idea to have individuals posting their own spoiler threads as we could end up having to police a lot of threads. This is why we ask everyone to restrict their game-specific discussions to the official spoilers during the game.

Cannot you get a lot of info from the QSC step by steps?

Greetz

Cannot you get a lot of info from the QSC step by steps?

Yes, but, as I mentioned, it's all very well looking at how good games have worked, what you also need help with (and other people's QSC, or spoilers aren't that much help) is how you went wrong. What you did that wasn't quite right. Why your implementation of a strategy learned from other users failed. Which of your decisions was flawed. Where it could have worked a lot better if only you'd just done xxx instead of yyy. Or whatever.

You can only learn so much from the implied knowledge of other games. Constructive critisism of your own plays is much more valuable. IMHO.

Haven't had a chance to play for a little while now, but I like the idea of a 'help desk'. I'll second the motion to make it a 'newbie-class' instead of limited to conquest-class only. I could imagine a lot of folks might want help at various difficulty levels, especially if they are inexperineced with the starting conditions or are trying out a new victory type.

I'd suggest making us newbies do a little homework too- in addition to something resembling a quickstart log, maybe have us answer a few set questions: My goal was X, I tried to do Y, and I think it worked/didn't work because of Z... If we want people to take a careful look at our game, we should be willing to put some effort into it as well, and as people said before, that attention to detail can only help us help ourselves.

I'd also suggest, as a way to make it more fun for the experts, to find some way to reward the expert reviewers. Maybe add a 'golden stethescope' award for the most reviews in that XOTM, or simply recognize when someone has looked at 10, 25, etc games.

Personally, I have no problem having this help function lumped in with the regular spoiler thread. I only found CivFanatics a few months ago, but it seems like a really friendly, supportive community, and also most of us are more or less anonymous, so newbies shouldn't be afraid to post with the masters. Its just a game, right(?)

second the motion to make it a 'newbie-class' instead of limited to conquest-class only.

While I understand this and do agree, the problem arises as to what constitutes a ‘newbie’? Without a clear cut definition you’ll have many players posting in this thread for some reason or another. By defining the thread as conquests class only parameters are set which must be followed. Plus, if you leave the parameters too wide open you have the problem of way too many players posting.

What I mean is if it is not conquest class only and defined some other way you’ll have many players posting, and some of the pro’s may not wish to take the time and go into detail on every players games. With leaving it at conquests class only the games submitted will be in a smaller amount thereby you will have more pro’s willing to help out and a better focus. Realize also that eventually the conquest players (myself included) will move up to the point that they will be able to play in open class and therefore remove themselves from this thread, allowing room for other new players to the game to take their place. Or, more focus on those on conquest class.

I myself tend to play conquest class on every game above regent, at least for right now. So at this time on all games above regent level I would participate as a ‘needs help’ player in this thread and would remove myself during any regent games. This makes sense.

If you are a ‘needs help’ player and feel comfortable enough in going for open class than you (general you, no one specific) feels they may be capable of handling it without the conquest benefits. By default unfortunately you would be unable to post in this thread. This may seem a little harsh but parameters must be set and followed, much like the current XOTM setup.

I’m more worried that if the thread we are discussing is more open as to who are allowed to post games we will have way to many posts and not enough players willing to help out. Setting the parameters for conquest class only keeps the game submission lower thereby allowing more focus on those games. If it is allowed for open players as well there could easily be several dozen submissions and I can’t see a very good focus on each game.

I hope I haven’t rambled too much.

Though a did not participate in the last months, I like the idea about a support thread very much.

For a newbie who sucks, it's kind of intimidating I think.

Interestingly, I felt more comfortable posting in the spoiler threads when I was really horrible. I got a lot of help, and I felt that my presence in the spoiler thread made it easier for others to participate. Now that I've moved up to mediocre, I feel like I have a lot less to say.

I think the idea of a separate thread like this is a good one. However, I'm not sure that conquest class players is the appropriate way to describe who should participate. It is, however, a simple way and perhaps the only feasible way to manage things. I think that people sometimes get in over their heads without realizing that they will be if they play open. Also, some of us remain eligible for conquest class because of our play style and victory conditions. If I decided to play conquest class next month, something I'm eligible for as I've never come close to the top half of the standings, I'd be eligible for help here. Obviously, I'm not the intended beneficiary. On the other hand, someone who plays a military game and does well in a regent level game one month is restricted from playing conquest class and can't get help here the next month on emperor, even though they've never won even at monarch.

Shouldn't the qualification for Conquest Class be something like: "Never finished in the top 50% at the same or higher difficulty level"?

This would allow players to still get help as the difficulty ramps up. It's not like there is any advantage to Conquest Class other than learning to play better. (-15% Jason score and ineligible for metals and awards, right?)

How about making conquest class open to players who haven't been in the top 50% in a game one lower than the current level or better? I would suggest that someone who can get in the top 50% in a Regent game, for instance, certainly has a good sporting chance at Monarch. If the jump from Monarch or Emperor (or any other two levels) is considered too great, perhaps the rules could be amended for that. As it is, though, I agree with CKS and Denniz. A person who can be in the top 50% in Regent may still not be ready for Emperor or Deity.

That's a very good point, shortguy. Much more people will need/want help on the higher difficulties, and so it should have adjusted requirements to accomodate.

Coming from a noob to GOTM, but someone who has been playing for a long time, I think this is a great idea. I have always wanted advice that might take my game to the next level. I have lots of bad habits, and I don't mind some encouraging advice on solving them. However, that is the key for this new forum. Constructive criticism would have to be the order of the day. That way, I think I would welcome anyone's advice, and I could compare my game to others that are about my level.

Is there a quick way that has been developed to log moves? Or does everyone go basically by pen/paper?

OK - I've opened a thread for this here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118309).

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to it. The only thing is I still need to actually start the game. :D

Is there a quick way that has been developed to log moves? Or does everyone go basically by pen/paper?
There are one or two spreadsheets around that people have developed. I just keep Notepad open and type straight into that.

I run Civ on a Mac and I have an ancient PC next to it that runs Notepad for logging and CivAssist for keeping track of status later in the game.

Can someone give me a link to a thread discussing Civ Assist? I understand it is legal to use in GOTM, but how does it "assist you"...worthwhile or not?

If you browse around the forum you will find links in quite a few posts (asspecially in footers)

I started using it in my first GOTM attempt, and must say its helping me a lot.

By the By I entered open, but still think i am crap. Can I post in the *HELP* thread as well?
I am trying to stear clear of the spoilers, but its hard. I am somewhat near to entering the MA. But it will take a while yet.

Regards

@THE WIZ: Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=98630)'s the thread where you can find all there is to know about CivAssist.

@Mailman's reflection: As there are only a few players here looking for advice currently, why not post your save and ask your questions.