THIS VERSION HAS WORKING WONDER SPLASHES This time for REAL.. It's been tested.

Newest additions at bottom of post.

Ok.... this is a MOD that changes the names of 2 governments.... deletes one, and adds 11. Most of these only take effect in the modern era though. I haven't messed with the propaganda modifiers yet, or tried to work out any bugs. I also don't have civilopedia entries yet. But, it could make things a little more interesting... If you have any comments on what I should change or whatnot, let me know. And keep in mind, that I tried to simulate what a government would act like. My fascist government, needs to be changed probably. The problem was that though it's pure evil, it's ability to control the populous and succeed is amazing. Though the populous may not like the government, they fear causing dissent. That's why it "seems" so good in the mod. Help me figure out how to hurt it a bit, realistically.

Changed government names
Communism -> Soviet Communism
Republic -> Greco-Roman Republic

Added Governments
Capitalism
Corporatism
Social Democracy
Democratic Socialism
Marxist Communism
Techno-Marxist Communism
Fascism
Fundamentalism
Feudalism
Anarchocapitalism
Anarchosocialism

Deleted Governments
Democracy

Well, comments are most welcome and encouraged. I want to fix this as much as possible. This is sort of a demo version. Give me ideas.

well minor changes were done to versions 2 and 3.... and here's what I posted earlier for version 4, which this is.

Ok...... Here's what I did. I added 3 new citizens.....
Capitalist +2 tax
Scientist +2 science (changed the old Scientist to Alchemist)
Broadcasted Entertainer +3 luxuries

I added a new city improvement
Green economy - like recycling center, but costs more maintainance (loss of production) and can be built in addition. (Ecology needed)

I added several small wonders to make the happiness bonuses work
Industrial Base - no benefit; 500 sheilds (needs to be built in capitalist government)
Successful Nationalized Economy - +2 happy citizens all cities; 500 shields (needs to be built in democratic socialist government, requires Industrial Base to be built first)
Perfect Humantiarianism - +3 happy citizens all cities; 1000 sheilds (I believe) (needs to be built in marxist communist government, requires Successful Nationalized Economy to be built first)
Automated Economy - +10 happy citizens all cities; 1000 sheilds (needs to be built in Techno-Marxist Communist government, which needs Perfect AI which takes the maximum time to develop)
National Healthcare System - +2 happy citizens all cities; costs maintainance (needs to be built in Social Democracy and requires a number of hospitals to be built)

I also added some regular wonders which I'll just name a couple, most are government specific
Communist Manifesto
The Microsoft Monopoly
The Secret Police

so hopefully this will make the game much more interesting. And the small wonders make it so that nations follow the rules of Marx in order to get to Marxist communism. After all, look at the Soviet Union, it skipped the capitalist stage and didn't build up their industrial base, so where did they end up? At Soviet Communism, not at a true form of socialism at all. Well, at least I know any marxists out there will be wetting themselves over these improvements. So just let me know how it's running along, and tell me if I need to alter some things to make it more realistic, such as if industrial base takes too long to build or whatnot. And above all enjoy. I'll start working on the version with the civilopedia entries for ALL of this.... but I won't release it, and it WILL be in a new thread.... until after I get comments from you on this version. I totally ran out of ideas for wonders and whatnot, so I don't plan on adding more any time soon.

Also added, marijuana and tobacco

Working version... civilopedia not complete

version 4 removed after 185 downloads

version 5 removed after 1242 downloads

For the new Version I added:

New Gov's:
Athenian Democracy
Spartan Military Aristocracy

New Improvements:
Brothel
Mess Hall
Post Office
Wine Distillery
Printing Press
Vomitorium
Local Government (final solution to corruption, costs money)
Theater
Gymnasium (in the Hellenistic world's sence)
Olive Grove
Slave Camp
Aquaculture Farm

New Wonders:
Creation Legend
Louis Pasteur's Distillery
Inquisition
Machu Pichu
Sphinx
Royal Purple Dye
Solomon's temple
Ark of the Covenant
Universal Education
Book of the Dead
Epic of Gilgamesh
The Torah
Vestial Virgins
Minos' Labyrinth
The Forum
The Nazca Lines
The World Trade Center
The Olympic Games
The Rosetta Stone
Socrates' Trial
Dionysus' Dramatic Festival
+++many more

New Civ:
Bexgomia (kinda cheap, for my own personal pleasure)

Also many units that didn't upgrade before, now do so.

WHEN INSTALLING: place all within the new wondersplash folder into art/wondersplash....... resources.pcx belongs in art/....... text files belong in text/........ the mod should be renamed civ3mod.bic......... MAKE SURE that you backup all previous files in case you wish to uninstall this mod...... the civ3.mod, resources, and texts all need to be backed up in order to uninstall. Folder goes in Art/Units

oh well there's something I learned when I wanted to add JUST 3 governments in a mod pack (it was fundamentalism, fascism and socio-democracy), you won't be able to make real big differences between them, that's why firaxis set only 5 governments initially. It's true that each of the governments you wanted to add are particulars but in a game like this it won't make a big difference... What Firaxis wanted is:
Despotism = obligatory initial govt (good for war)
Monarchy = War govt
Communism = Ultimate war govt
Republic = Half-way between Monarchy and Democracy
Democracy = Peaceful govt

So, for example, if you want to add a "fascist government", it will be a war govt... But there are already 3 other war govt so it's kinda useless...

My 2¢

First of all, does this mod work? Won't crash my game or anything. Anyway a couple of suggestions:
Fascism: If possible make all other goverments realy hate it, second it should have reduced money/trade, many other civs should boycott a civ that has fascism. Should have low corruption, because of police power
Fundementalism: Should be much like Fascism in the way that other more Democratic civs would dislike it. Should have low corruption because of the dedicated citizens of such governments.

I also have a few question: What kind of governments are:
Techno-Marxist Communism?
Anarchocapitalism?
Anarchsocialism?

But a mod like this is useful because I realy think that there were too few governments in CIVIII - tought it would be much more differents. The ultimate would be if you could yourselves design governments during the game, with it's ups and downs, so that youre communism didn't match other civs etc.

I'll look into it, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't make everyone hate fascist civs unfortunately...... perhaps if I put it as all the civ's shunned government (so far I haven't touched this). I'll go check against what I have for corruption and trade, but I think that's how I already had it :). As far as government descriptions........

Techno-Marxist Communism - A perfectly communal society, where all production is done by robots. I wanted to make a really hard to get technology named Perfect AI for this.... but I don't know how to as of yet. Perhaps if I sacrifice one of the other techs. But I'll find something in the future versions.

Anarchocapitalism - This is basically the libertarian paradise. Capitalism is the economy, and you have no one messing with your rights at all. That's why I made it so that you can have no police or free unit support. Capitalism + Anarchy.

Anarchosocialism - Basically this is Guild socialism. You here of an anarchist, this is probably the form of anarchy they are looking for. It's not really a society without rule, just that there are no specific rulers. Every industry, etc, is a guild. And it's workers directly elect a representative, who does nothing more than report the guild's decision to other guilds so far as to the few laws that there are. Socialism + Anarchy.

I also made it so that Marxist Communism and Techno-Marxist Communism were forms of anarchy (Degeneration of the Political State).

And for those that might not know, the difference between capitalism and corporatism is the types of business. At least on the surface. Capitalism is the original philosophy described by Adam Smith, full of freedom and small competing businesses. Corporatism is full of corporations as the main economy, this is what the US has now. This has been warned against by Jefferson, Lincoln, and Adam Smith, father of capitalism himself. Also, it could be taken that this is what Alexis de Tocqueville warned against when he said that if permanant inequality (aristocracy) were to rise in america again, it would be from industry. Corporatism has slightly higher corruption (Buisiness scandals, insider trading) than capitalism, and all improvements are paid for by their respective owners. Also it's police is up. This isn't from an official police state (secret police). But rather an attempt to simulate such things as a corporate controlled media which reports one-sidedly and also such things as the CIA implanting drugs into rebellious big cities (yes, it is recorded that this happened).

If anyone knows how to directly effect happiness, let me know. I wanted to make it so that for such governments such as Techno-Marxist Communism (a society where no one has to work, just go to their hobbies, perhaps making MODs for Civ 3 ^_^) would make the citizens happier, all I have is high assimilation rate from it's admirable society.

Keep up with the posts, I need to tweak this to perfection :)

btw, I'm using it right now. Though I didn't get to use any of these governments yet, it's not worth changing to feudalism for the anarchy, I need to fix that...... but the game runs with it. There should be no problem running the game all the way through, and of course, ALWAYS back up your civ3mod file.... that way if this stops working, restore the original and open up an autosave. But that shouldn't happen.

Well ,if i will play this mod i will definitly go for Techno-Marxist Communism .Why? because i practicly invented it ,and it should be the best system goverment around. :lol: :king:

Damn straight it is. It's supposed to be a utopian society. But I'm fixing up the MOD right now. And I got rid of smart weapons, and it is no longer required for integrated defence. It's now named Perfect AI and will allow the Techno-Marxist government. It will also require 1000 instead of 160 or whatever it's measuring...... to show how far away we really are from true Perfect AI. I wanted to make it more, but it's not possible.

Also the preliminary likes dislikes for government types are in :)

I'll post it soon.

here it is..... version 2. Feudalism is also a little better than monarchy now. It allows a little more support and a little more of a draft rate (more people drafting, Lords and Barons and such).

I'll post the final version in a new thread whenever I perfect this thing.

Ok so i downloaded this file. But how do i install it?


Thanks

Ok, to install do the following.......

1. Rename Civ3mod.bic
2. take this mod and name it Civ3mod.bic

otherwise you can load it as a scenario.


And to DanRCatone...... Because there's anti-american things to be said. I have to explain the mod, and if I don't explain those things that didn't HAVE to be taken as anti-american. People wouldn't understand the mod. Those are things that happen, get used to it. EX: the palestinians celebrating in the streets that we all saw, weren't that. It was Brazil some 6 years ago, not Palestinians on S11.

Thanks a lot

i ll try it out.

Thanks heaps..it was soo simple too jeez.

As a possible negative side to fundamentalism, how about curtailing scientific bonuses in sort of the opposite of the bonus that scientific cultures get.

Is it possible to remove advances from cultures? Would it be possible to have Fundamentalism, for instance, remove the Evolution advance and prevent it from being gained during that government? Interesting idea...

As a possible negative side to fundamentalism, how about curtailing scientific bonuses in sort of the opposite of the bonus that scientific cultures get.

Ok, well I wanted to do that, but it doesn't seem that option is there. But I will look into it more.

And about the Brazilian thing, sorry, I heard it was Brazilian. But the fact remains that it was pre-S11.

ok, I changed a bit so far, I weakened Fascism's trade. Raised the rate cap in capitalism up to 10 (forgot to before). And I'm working right now on all the resistance and propaganda modifiers...... so within the next 8 hours, I'll probably have a new, possibly perfected version done.... same thread yet. But keep the comments coming. I'll read what I can before I release this. This isn't done until almost everyone is happy. And if there's some new government you're still looking for, mention that too, plus any ideas for it. BTW, I changed Anarchy to Revolutionary War. Figured it was more accurate. No changes in the actual numbers of it though.

Thanks to those that helped so far. And I did have rate caps on both science and luxuries already, that was allowed. On the anarchic governments and Fundamentalism......

eh, then I have to work on the civilopedia entries.....

oh, forgot to say, I'm also open to quotes to use for the civilopedia entries, both by pro and anti <insert government here> activists.

ok, check this out...... I think after working on it that it should be flawless. I should just need to add in some civilopedia entries. So please test out this hopefully final demo version of the mod. I did what I felt I needed to with the resistance modifiers..... I don't see that much necessity to do more than I already did with the propaganda modifiers.... and hell, that's 16*16*2 different coorelations otherwise.... I don't have that kind of energy. But the resistance is set. Fascists are almost always ready to not resist..... fundamentalists will resist anyone, even other fundamentalists....... That's if I figured out the modifiers right. It wasn't that specific in the help, so I figured that a greater number meant that they'd resist more if taken over by the other government..... not the other way around. Well anyways, enjoy. I'll give you the final version when I get those entries done and also when I get some feedback on how this mod works.:king:

ok, something came up. I found a hacked editor.... and I can do a little more now.... mainly in the form of wonders of the world for right now. So I'll make ways for certain governments to make citizens happier. So this will get only BETTER.

Ok...... Here's what I did. I added 3 new citizens.....
Capitalist +2 tax
Scientist +2 science (changed the old Scientist to Alchemist)
Broadcasted Entertainer +3 luxuries

I added a new city improvement
Green economy - like recycling center, but costs more maintainance (loss of production) and can be built in addition. (Ecology needed)

I added several small wonders to make the happiness bonuses work
Industrial Base - no benefit; 500 sheilds (needs to be built in capitalist government)
Successful Nationalized Economy - +2 happy citizens all cities; 500 shields (needs to be built in democratic socialist government, requires Industrial Base to be built first)
Perfect Humantiarianism - +3 happy citizens all cities; 1000 sheilds (I believe) (needs to be built in marxist communist government, requires Successful Nationalized Economy to be built first)
Automated Economy - +10 happy citizens all cities; 1000 sheilds (needs to be built in Techno-Marxist Communist government, which needs Perfect AI which takes the maximum time to develop)
National Healthcare System - +2 happy citizens all cities; costs maintainance (needs to be built in Social Democracy and requires a number of hospitals to be built)

I also added some regular wonders which I'll just name a couple, most are government specific
Communist Manifesto
The Microsoft Monopoly
The Secret Police
The Halocaust (This has negative effects as well, such as -10 culture and -1 happiness)

so hopefully this will make the game much more interesting. And the small wonders make it so that nations follow the rules of Marx in order to get to Marxist communism. After all, look at the Soviet Union, it skipped the capitalist stage and didn't build up their industrial base, so where did they end up? At Soviet Communism, not at a true form of socialism at all. Well, at least I know any marxists out there will be wetting themselves over these improvements. So just let me know how it's running along, and tell me if I need to alter some things to make it more realistic, such as if industrial base takes too long to build or whatnot. And above all enjoy. I'll start working on the version with the civilopedia entries for ALL of this.... but I won't release it, and it WILL be in a new thread.... until after I get comments from you on this version. I totally ran out of ideas for wonders and whatnot, so I don't plan on adding more any time soon.

ok, let me stress the importance that you backup your civ3mod...... When I first went to use this, my only saved game was corrupted, but I could still start a new game. So tell me if you are getting corrupted saves like that too. Could just be me.

Sorry for being picky like this, but could you please include the version number with the zip file, like governments-v3.zip?

Thanks

ComradeRed: I see no inherent problems in replacing the ideals of representative democracy and capitalism in civ3 vanilla with socialist ideals and theory.

However, as far as gameplay goes, I think you're starting to run the riskt of transforming the game into a crash course in marxist and socialist theory. This is a game, and balanced gaming should go before everything else, including political content.

An Industrial Base wonder? Automated Economy wonder? These are probably better illustrated by having a high shield production and lots of factories and manufacturing plants. Successful Nationalized Economy? What's this if not a civ with some kind of socialist government and a lot of happy people?

And what do you mean by Perfect Humanitarianism? Why do you need to be Marxist Communist to build it?

Green economy should have some sort of drawback. After all, we today have the technology for a green economy and we know it would be good. Still we're not implementing it. Why? Probably some kind of commercial drawback, or less food from each square -- you've decided not to push the environment as far as you can.

The anarchosocialist and (possibly) the marxist socialism governments could encourage the building of many smaller cities rather than a few megacities. Is this possible? Less coruption from some kind of improvment (local governing board) but less commercial gain than capitalism and corporativism? I'm out of my depth here -- I may be totally wrong on this view of anarchism and marxism socialism.

Oh, and one more thing...

The cultural bonus for The Communist Manifesto is rather big. Ok, I can buy that, considering the number of academics that use marxist theory, and the fact that the thing comes into play rather late, so it will probably generate less than Shakespear's and Sistine Chapel.

But shouldn't the name of the wonder be Das Kapital? I think that's what's been spawning all the theorizing, rather than the quick draft that is the Communist Manfesto (it rember reading somewhere that it was written in a day or two).

Otherwise, this seems lika a rather exciting mod. Looking forward to the finished version, ComradeRed.

Well thanks for the feedback, that's what I was looking for. Unfortunately you can't have smaller cities be the effect of a government, or so it seems from the editor. I put high maintainance on the green economy to represent the loss in production, but I wasn't sure how to do it otherwise. I may change the Communist Manifesto to Das Kapital. And the Halocaust wonder may have to lose it's loss in culture, I think it's making the mod crash once it's built.

As far as the other wonders such as Industrial base, it's to postpone the happiness created by equal distribution until it's feasible. It is marxist philosophy, but I'm sure you'd prefer that to me making it automatically increase happiness (as if I could anyways, I can't). These are mainly meant to deal with the happiness, not with production. I wish I could do something to turn the happiness to just contentment, make some of the happy go to content, but I don't think I can. And it was to show how Russia worked to a point. They skipped the whole capitalist step and to keep from the poverty they started a more fascist like state. You of course have to create all of this before you can move on.... successfully.

And about the negative effects of corporativism. Back in the day the US realized the problems, people such as Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. But today, saying that will get you a lot of problems, I was expecting to hear a few comments like Homer's.

But thank you for your input, I'll see if I can do something to improve all of this.

I will leave these government-based wonders in, but if you would rather not have them, remember that you can always delete them by opening the mod, small editing, and saving it.

ok, for version 5 when it comes out, there will also be 2 new luxury resources, and gold may become a luxury.

Tobacco
Marijuana

I don't personally smoke marijuana, but you know it would be traded.

Would it be possible for a civilization to switch governments without the player having chosen to do so. This is what happens quite often in real life, societies begin to support a certain ideal, then some of the people work their way into the government, and before you know it, were all hailing on our knees to "Grand CEO Bush!" The same is true in many countries, the Soveit Union could not have been mmore of an ideological society in its beginings. And one more question, what would you call China's government?

If you'd want to include a minority perspective within anarchism, you could try including green anarchism (aka primitivism). I don't have civ3 (yet), so I don't know what parameters you could change. I guess science would be zero (or negative if that was possible) - the idea would be to return to a tribal society, by reducing population and production. Maybe limiting cities sizes to 2 and production to around 1 shield?

The only reason one would want green anarchism would be if resources were limited - something that I suspect civ 3 fails to include. According to theory, in the long run (say 300+ years from now), only a green anarchist society would be sustainable.

Real anarchism would abolish the state. At a minimum your people should refuse to fight any wars (except class war), unless attacked. Ideally they'd cross borders, fomenting social revolutions in other states, and you'd have a global revolution that would abolish states and in a sense everyone, regardless of nationality, would win!

For anarchism, I'm not sure how you could represent mutual aid. It seems like it could be represented as an increase in trade, but anarchist societies have traditionally been self-reliant - and thus they'd have less trade.

I'm very interested in testing out this mod pack once I get a chance!

well, China is simply closest to soviet communism, though it's becoming more of a mix of individual and state capitalism. Perhaps I'll add that in a later version.

Green anarchism like that isn't possible. You can't limit it like that.

and no, you can't be forced into changing governments unless it collapses (such as I know happend in democracy in civ's one and two. I deleted democracy for this mod, and it's all I'm playing.)

ok, so it turns out the mod crashes if YOU, not the computer, build one of the wonders that I added. I think it's because it has no pic, does anyone know how to make the pics for this?

check plutarck's guide in the guide's forum... it is explained there

Comrade Red - Great work! Please keep it coming.

Appreciate you and others sharing your work.

EDIT - Suggestion: I would use "opium" instead of "mj" for a luxury. It just sounds better, and would be all inclusive.

Too bad you cant make a civ with the opium luxury suffer a penalty, like lethargy. :lol:

Tobacco is very appropriate. Good luxury item.:goodjob:

If you look at the wonder it's not glorified at all. I hate the halocaust just as much as you do. But while I was going around trying to find wonders that were government related, I thought the halocaust certainly was a wonder. Don't you wonder how heartless people could be to do this? It is a wonder, and it is a major world event. There was no intention to glorify it in the least. Once I get the Civilopedia entries in, it will be bashed left and right.

"Still, I love USA, and I live in israel so I thank uncle sam every morning"

Well, that explains your feelings about the holocaust.

I agree with your objections to the holocaust as a World Wonder. I does seem slightly out of place, and besides, ethnic cleansing exists as a game function already doesn't it?

Perhaps the holocaust could be replaced by "Unified Nationality" or "Perfect Ethnic Unity", which was what the nazis (presumably) attempted to achieve.

Just a thought.

I don´t agree with the idea of calling the Shoah/Holocaust a wonder. In the first place, wonders are supposed to invite the admiration of all of the civs, and this one would do the reverse. Secondly, the mass killing of people in the east (approximately 20 million, most of whom were Russians) is arguably what allowed Stalin to eventually mount a defence, and go on to win, so it wasn´t any good for Germany either. There´s also the problem that the Soviet and Chinese Communist regimes were even more murderous, so perhaps more `deserving´ of this `wonder´.

If you want your fascism government to represent National Socialism, some actual wonders might be zero-unemployment (though this could also apply to the Soviet regime), civic order, the motorway (Autobahn) or the Volkswagen. Another possibilty might be something to do with military technology, but German superiority in military technology had nothing to do with National Socialism (which may have even regressed it), so I don´t think that would be such a good idea.

I think a more general fascism government would be better, considering, for instance, Italy, Spain, Chile and others. None of these regimes were particularly murderous (all far less so than each of the three Allied powers), and neither did any reproduce the military-technological developments of NS Germany. The most significant aspect of most fascist regimes was the ability to resist Marxism/Communism, which other regimes were more vulnerable to, and to maintain civic order in the face of this threat. That would make them similar to capitalism, but with a better ability to prevent disorder/revolts, and perhaps with a diplomatic penalty of some kind.

As a general comment, while I like the idea of adding more governments, I´m not so sure about the fanciful ones that have never existed in reality, and are simply based on perhaps unsound theories.

Heres my idea for a holocaust replacement. I think that the lighter than air-ship era should be represented in civ iii, so instead of the holocaust include the Hindenburg. No matter how hard you try, its hard to find anything thats really wonderous that comes out of fascist governments, but if I really had to choose I would pick zeppelins.

I think that you should be able to build zeppelins as units, but thats one other technological marvel the people at Firaxis failed to include. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen zeppelins, or blimps for that matter, in any Civ game. The biggest advantage of blimps as a unit is obvious any way, they wouldn't have re-fuel every turn.

But back to the topic of wonders, I think its odd to include the Volkswagon into the game as a wonder without at least including The Ford Motor Company, or Ford's Assembly Line. I was also very surprised to not see the internet in the game, I think thats one of mans greatest achievments. It also is odd to include the holocaust without other historic events, because the holocaust is an event, not a structure.

Im not trying to put down this fantastic mod or anything, if I had the dedication to do what these modders do for the game, who knows what I could do. This is just my two cents.

Well here's my take on the whole halocaust debate. I don't personally believe that a wonder has to be a good thing. It only has to have a significant effect on the society. The Halocaust, however horrible, had an effect, and a significant one at that. It had both positive and negative effects, but it did effect the society. I also added the microsoft monopoly which I think is repulsive and I also find the stock market to be immoral which was already in the game.

If you don't want the halocaust there is a simple solution, doubleclick on the mod, go to edit rules..... improvements. Then go down to the Halocaust and the delete button on the screen. Then close the rule editing window and save the mod. Then it will not be there anymore. I personally would like it there so some other society can build it, then you can attack that city and burn it to the ground.

It's there and will be set once I fix the graphics, thanks to Quelebex for his help there, and you can easily delete it if you want. Perhaps I'll just create a version without the halocaust in it to save you time. But remember that you can modify the mods. Nothing is set in stone.

Before I go on, I'm just gonna say that I'm not pro-american, neither am I anti-american. More or less neutral. And I find the holocaust horrible too. I find all forms of ethnic clensing (whether in great amounts like the holocaust or in milder forms) to be an atrocity.

However, they're part of our history. Like it or not, we need to show how bad it was. We can't censor history. Furthermore, this is just a game. If you choose to build the holocaust in the game, this does not mean anymore people are going to get killed. It's just virtual people in a strategy game. It does however, serve as a reminder on how bad it was.

Though millions have died in the holocaust, millions more have died elsewhere during the WW2. The people here (right in the south-east asia and east asia) too have suffered under the hand of another axis government.

Homer, the US does need to be criticized, nothing that Iceblaze said was wrong. And don't censor in my thread. Aid certainly is good, but we do a lot of damage too. So, let him speak.

Comrade,

good job. But, why holocaust? Why stop there? Because we can see Lenin's socialist policy, Mao's Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution, or how about America's extermination of indigenous population?

Thus, I think you have to set up some criteria- namely, set up wonders that provide positive aspects of the game, in terms of both history and its benefits.

But, all in all, great work!

why build the halocaust if it's a bad thing? Why because I want to burn the damn thing to the ground. but perhaps I'll just change it to a city improvement, concentration camp to make it more generic, or better yet, do both. The halocaust can create a concentration camp in EVERY city. of course these camps will have the negative effects. But damn it..... it gives you pretense to war. You need a good reason? Because these bastards built the Halocaust.

Well, I am a bit confused over the comment on "these bastards". But, the idea of camp that have some adverse effects may not be that bad of an idea. It may even be akin to those structures in Alpha Centauri.

Good thinking.

when someone builds the Halocaust, you'll hear about it and you can go and attack them, it makes it feel like you have a reason. The game might not see it that way, but hell, it's more fun that way.

Comrade,
I think you should defintely work with Plutarck. He can help you, and you guys won't overlap your work. You seem more government, he is more unit and wonder. He has the graphic thing down. Between the two of you, you can make some great mods.

I think there is a problem with resources at the moment. Only 2 can be added. After that, you won't be able to see them. You may want to hold off on that. It will break other mods people have.

THe halocost gives me a funy feeling. IMHO I don't think it should be in. Your right, we could just remove it ourselve. Maybe you could make it a seperate mod?

interesting.... well he's certainly more than welcome to help if he wants. I don't really want to have to mess with all of those pictures...... Plutarck, if you're there, and you're interested, write me at stevetash@redutopia.ws

Okay, why would any civilization want to build this Holocaust wonder if its sole purpose is to give other nations a rational to attack them? Even a concentration camp city improvement needs a rational. Does it cut down on crime? Scare your population into submission?

It makes little sense to have game options that only a lunatic would choose, even its based on a historical reality.

And the camps and the halocaust do have positive benefits, just negative as well. And the justification for war is all in my mind, I can't make that incorporated into the game.

Hmm comrade, why not rename the Holocaust to something like "Ethnic Clensing"? At least that term sounds more agreeable, and many leaders have done it (like milasovic, pol pot, stalin). Just my suggestion :)

Facism (Latin American/Italian/German) is basically covered by the current Republic, just pack the cities with troops to keep the people silent. That's basically the same thing as Facism, its not some wonder political process, its basically about scaring the tar out of everyone so they behave and promoting nationalism to distract people.

The NAZI's were successful not because of Facism, but because the Germans have a lot of people and they are really good with building things like cars, planes and tanks (Militaristic, Scientific). Time a Golden Age to appear the first time a panzer attacks another country and you've got Nazi Germany without a patch or another government. You want deathcamps you can starve your cities so they lose population. That gets rid of the troublemakers without changing the rules.

Stalinism would be Communism with troops in the cities and starving the populous in certain areas and putting taxmen instead of entertainers in each city to milk as much as you could from each city. This works for Chinese Communism as well.

Text book marxism would be communism as shown in the game, but choosing to build luxuries, etc instead of tanks.

European/Canadian/Australian Social Democracy would be Democracy with tons spent on luxuries to make the folks happy, happy, happy and lots of extra city improvements to make them even happier.

American/Hong Kong Capitalist Democracy would be Democracy with less spent on luxuries to make the folks happy and more spent on science and to get cash in general (to pay for troops in America or simply cash for Hong Kong before the takeover).

Its all in the game already, its just a matter of how you play the civ. I don't understand the need to start adjusting basic gameplay already. The game is still brand new.

Hmm but the point of the mod is customize it further. The solutions you offered below just show the mild changes you can do to the government. Besides that, the governments in Civ are pretty generic. That's why government mods are made. Whether you use it or not, that's just up to you. We all have a choice, you know :)

if you read...... the government types are very specific. And marxist communism would NOT allow such troop deployment or use forced labor. Plus you have assimilation changes, and then the wonders make it even more sensible.

I'll defer to your knowledge of the gameplay, you clearly know more about the innerworkings of the game if you can edit it and make the changes you've discussed here. And this is after all a board about mods.

Perhaps a new government called Democratic Colonial that allows reduced curruption in foreign areas and a mini-wonder called Viceroy that allows even further reduced curruption. This way the farflong British and French Empires could be created.

I would like to just say something to EVERBODY that makes government mods. When you create a fundamentalism government, do not base it only on the Taliban. Thats is just as foolish as basing the monarchy in the game on the English monarchy. When making governments consider ALL cultures that have used that government. While it may seem that the Taliban have failed as a government, the Byzantine Empire lasted for over a thousand years, even though they commited crimes against the Jews that are as bad as what the Nazis did! Also consider the Aztec fundamentalism.

I would also like to note, that you shouldn't create a government for every rl country, that would make the game far more tedious to play. Instead you should make generalizations, and try to include the traits that appear most often in that kind of government. Don't make a government called Religous Fascim just because thats the easiest way to state the Montezuma ruled the Aztecs, it gets confusing fast :confused:

One other note, just for historical accuracy, all modders should go into their files and change the city of Byzantium to the city of Constinople, and make Byzantium a Greek city. This only makes sense bacause originally Constinople was Byzantium, until the Romans moved in and created a city of their own. Today the city is called Istanbul, for the curious.

I wish people would bother to crack open a dictionary just once.

There is no such thing as a "Fundamentalist" form of government. It doesn't exist, never has, never will.

Furthermore, Fundamentalism, is more often a Christian term, not a Muslim one.

Finally, if you insist on using "religous" governments, please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY... use the CORRECT term:

THEOCRACY

Ok... On this Wonder that started this all. I've got a couple ideas that could make it more worth while to keep.

1> Name change. National Purification or something like that could work. I'm not certain yet what the change could go to.
2> Make the wonder available only in certain governments. If you're a Democracy or Depotism form of government, there'd be no use for that wonder in your possession.
3> Suggested alterations within the Wonder :
:D - All Unhappy citizens are made content in all cities.
:( - Half the Happy citizens are made content in all cities.
:D - Allows for a greatly-increased production in all cities.
:( - Eliminates all military, alliances and Right-of-passage and trade agreements.
:mad: - Greatly lowers the attitude of Foreign Nations [Like anyone who's annoyed or worse could declare war on you]

These suggestions could make for a potentially powerful military system...... but basically, it's you against the world if you do this.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Finally, if you insist on using "religous" governments, please, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY... use the CORRECT term:

THEOCRACY

THANK YOU! I'm probably the first, if not probably the third or fourth, to actually call it "Theocracy" rather than "Fundamentalism". When I made my "Governments Patch" (WARNING: Don't download! It sucks and needs work BADLY!), I took the liberty to actually call it "THEOCRACY"! But, I digress on this little adventure into "Fundamentalism vs. Theocracy". This little quote just caught my eye. Now for the rest of this thread...


Now for the actual patch:

The governments are okay, but I feel that the game offers little to actually diversify so many forms. I learned that the hard way when I tried to fit both Communism and Socialism in my "Governments Patch" (WARNING... Ah, you read it above earlier), so the only real generic governments you can add would be Fascism and Theocracy (or Fundamentalism, if you wanna whine about what it is or isn't). The new resources are good. However, as it was said earlier, "opium" might be a better seletion compared to "Mary Jane". It's been in longer use. Heh...

Summary

* Capitalism fits well with natural instincts. (arguement)

* A class system has been needed for all to benefit since the ancient times. (arguement)

* Socialism/Communism/Marxism will never work unless man can evolve past the concept of wealth and power. (arguement)

* Opium over "wacky tabacy". (suggestion)

* THEOCRACY! Get it right, everyone! (opinion)

Well said, Comrade! Well, I hope the debate ends there and we can continue discuss the mod to make it better rather than political discussions that just keeps on going in flaming successions...

Oh yeah, and excuse my stupidity, but I've been hearing about this left wing and right wing thing.. What's this thing about? I always hear people talk about it, but I never really understood. If you think this might start more endless political discussions, then feel free to message me instead, if you're willing

I don't think this will start any more debate.

Well, to try and give you an idea, I'll make a scale.

LEFT | Communism > Socialism > Social Democracy > Capitalism > Corporatism > Fascism/Monarchy | RIGHT

Hopefully that'll clear things up some, if you get the idea of the ideologies.

Hey. :)
I'm not getting involved in an argument of politics here (though I am a Trot) -- I just have an idea for a 'penalty' for Fascism in the game, that I don't know if anyone else has said. I haven't read more than a few posts in this threat.
Anyway, with Fascism, howabout, every turn, twenty-percent of the cities in the civ, besides the capital city, have a 1/2 chance of going into civil disorder? It wouldn't be the same cities everytime -- just, alternatingly.
Also -- I don't know if this happens in Civ3, I think it happens in CTP -- but, also, the risk of revolution (one city of yours turning 'barbarian') has a 1/20 chance for happening to any of your cities every turn?
Just saying one thing, though -- the Civ game handles the whole ideas of governments pretty..weird. I mean, some people here say they're Marxists, they ought to know that the whole thing about new technology and governments coming around just because of abstract 'scientific achievement' is totally wrong.
I don't have a good enough understanding of the complexities of the Civ3 gameplay to give a real suggestion, but maybe that line of thinking will lead to some interesting setup for advances, wonders, governments, etc.
My only idea is that, in order to be ABLE to produce certain new things, you have to switch governments, and build up the city improvements that they would need (ie, despotism = none needed, monarchy = serf village, republic = slave-trade (if it's based on the Greeks/Romans, it's got to be slaves),), etc., which all have higher and higher production costs, and require an increasingly large chunk of gold to maintain. I think, with a few tweaks in 'corruption' and much higher demands for happiness(easy to keep okay at low populations, very hard in bigger cities), Democracy could be changed to 'Capitalism'. Communism could be called 'Proletarian Bonapartism' (which is what Stalin, Castro, Mao, etc were), higher corruption in funds but almost none in production, no happy citizens (but content ones and whatever sad ones would be normally), but culture stops wherever it's at. And Fascism could get built-in too, since I did give my great idea. ;)
I think there should be big, big economic and production requirements for it, but there should be a 'Marxist' government that one can reach by the middle of the end of the modern age. It could be a 'wonder', maybe, since it would make no sense for one 'Marxist' civ to war or compete with another one. You could call it, 'Classical Communism' -- that is, communism as it's been theorized, but not reached -- a society of super-abundance. Basically, enough boost in happiness where there will never be disorder, giant production boost, giant trade and science increase, culture gains hugely (basically, putting more and more of the enemies cities in danger of switching to your side), big defense boosts for cities. But, of course, there have to be negatives -- this is a game. I think there should be a longer period of 'anarchy' before the government comes into effect, with a chance of up to twenty percent of the civ's cities going 'barbarian' (counter-revolution) at the change. Also, the costs for the wonder/government would be so high, that it might put a civ at a bit of a disadvantage while it's having to concentrate so much on building it up.
I'm sure that that all needs a lot of tweaks, but maybe it gives a little direction for a new setup? I definately don't think that the point should be to 'make as many governments as possible'. I honestly think that can muddle-up strategy, along with the historical importance and possibilities of each advance. On that last note, I don't think that Fascism or Communism should be one of those that I said that you have to 'go to' if you want to move on. They would just offer benefits that, depending on your style of play, you might dig. Capitalism = big funds and increasing happiness troubles, Fascism = military bonuses but big disorder problems, Communism = production bonuses but hard on funds (hard to keep it going for a long time). The industrial age gives you some branching choices in that way.
Anyway, whatever you think about governments, everything I said was about ideas for a mod, so making an argument wouldn't make any sense for anyone.
Thanks for reading. :)
I don't know how to program a mod, but if anyone's interested (ComradeRed?) in getting together to think it out some and they /do/ have the skills to make it, I'd really like talking on it. :)
Seeya. :)



----
just a new thought, popped into my head a little after I'd typed out this first message. :) First off, w/ Fascism, culture = as far as your cities resource borders. Basically, the entire world hates the culture, only way to expand is by military.


I know this all is pretty stripped-down from ComradeRed's original mod, which I haven't tried out yet (going to right now! :) ), but I admit it needs tweaking. Just don't think things need to be taken overboard if a mod gets focused on what exactly needs tweaking done. But thanks to CR for getting it made up, putting all the work in, great ideas, great direction -- trying it out now. :)

well, all I'm really going to say is that most of what you speak of isn't possible to do using the civ3edit tool. It would require hard coded programming in which I would need civ3's source code. You do have some interesting ideas, perhaps if you could go and check out the civ3 edit and then get back to me. That way I'll know that what you suggest can be done.

Right, sure thing CR. :) I've downloaded the hacked one, will check it out, get back to you.

... As long as you continue to tar social democracy with all the crimes of communism, I feel equally entitled to tar the free market with the crimes of slavery, segregation, colonialism and genocide; piss me off and I'll add fascism and the Nazis. -Greg Erwin

Great quote. I have problems with it (sounds like he means socialism not social democracy) but its a great quote. Ahem, now on to the matter at hand. There was a question on the right and the left and Comrade gave the standard left-right line. I think a quarter system is more accurate as shown on this site (http://64.224.73.234/politicalcompass/index.html).

Basically they list an Authoritarian/Liberatarian axis and a Left Right axis. This seperates Authoritarian Socialists (Stalin) far away from Liberatarian Socialists (Noam Chomsky) very nicely and removes Mr Erwin's worry of misrepresenting his beliefs.

ok, I made a couple changes, made the wonder splashes, so this weekend i'll make the civilopedia between studying and post a perfectly working version.

However, I felt that some inputs on the mod should be given...

Firstly, Mr. Comrade's patch was quite good. His idea is feasible.
But, I think parsimony is the key... there is simply no need to create so many governmental systems.

So, while we are keeping the ones already existed in Civ 3, there is only few more that could be added. We hardly need marxism (not even a government system), social democracy, blah, blah, blah.

Instead, let's add:

1. Feudalism (already in existence from other patches).
2. theocracy...something that was taken out in civ 3.

I should spend more time to think about its bonus.

Anyway, about the mod, how would you differentiate Corporatism and Capitalism governments? How would the game handle these concepts differently? How would you configure those governments to handle this? Just curious.

But down to the point. There is war weariness in Capitalism, but not in corporatism. Corporatism has no building costs, but also has more corruption. it also has a high draft rate and military police allowment. However, it suffers with assimilation. And for all the marxist steps of government, there's happiness bonuses that are gotten ONLY by going through each and creating the wonder at each one.

Anyhow, as to my earlier proposals; how about,

1. Feudalism: Comes with chivalry. Police effectiveness is 5 (increased by 1 at each city level). The level of corruption is nuisance(come on, there was not much to steal). Hmm...what else? Oh, no war weariness, of course. Increased assimilation.

and,

2. I would like to see theocracy...some of the benefits have been mentioned earlier. You can pick and choose from those suggestions.

it's not possible to increase military police tolerance per size.

Awww, that sucks man.
Hmmm...how about, er, size of military support?

that can happen..... but tell me why to change it more than it already is....... I need reason for changing. I just vamped it up a little from monarchy.

Mr. Comrade,

It is merely a slightly better version of Monarchy. After all, Feudalism itself is an evolution of old despotic monarch, is it not (well, yes and no...different countries progressed differently). Anyhow, for the sake of simplicity, the increase in the size of military support is beneficial for two reasons:

1. Historical- A better organized political, social, and economic systems allowed for the rise of "nation-states". And each nation needs its own military forces, right?

2. Gameplay- I think there is a big gap between monarchy and whatever the next form of government you are choosing. So, stick in feudalism...and it is fitting too, no?

notice there's version 5 released

This MOD does have a political slant as anything that uses governments would. I need people who just simply think that some aspect is wrong and needs a little debugging.

Anyone with half a brain can realize that in the GAME of Civ3, Despotism is modeled more on tribal chieftans of something akin to Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun running a society barely above barbarian status, vs a modern economic free-market, government sanctioned economy with a Reichstag, global trade and ministries of various sorts that Fascism in Civ3 represents.

They are hardly the same, anymore than the GAME mechanic of Republic is modeled on Ancient Rome, rather than modern-day US, which IS A REPUBLIC, NOT A DEMOCRACY.

By some of the idiots in this forum stating that in the GAME Despotism is the same as Fascism, why have Democracy, as the US is clearly a Republic? Because Republic becomes outdated and is useless, and is modeled on an ancient system, not a modern one. Despotism is modeled on an ancient system, not a modern one, just like Republic and Democracy.

ComradeRed has the right to model governments as he sees fit, and clearly he has more than enough common sense to see the differance between the government of the Huns, vs the government of Nazi Germany 2,000 years later.

Merger complete, Comrade :)

Actually something like the Marshall Plan could be done as a wonder... after you've ditched so much "money" (shields) into other countries (the wonder itself), you get some sort of Diplomatic bonus of sorts (other countries like you, or some sort of Diplomatic bonus of another sort).

Just a thought... I'm sure someone will end up flaming me in this thread though!

I've tried you mod, but I didn't see anything new in the civilopedia. Is there anything wrong with the way I installed it?

Originally posted by Kryzith
Ok, so what do yall want to disagree about now??

By the way, the Bears are going all the way this year!!!!

Well hmm I know theres been alot of disagreements but I think thats been put to rest. :) Not to mention from what I was warned, I dunno if its a good idea to go argue on the boards heh, seems we got a bit of bad attention for it.
But I have to say I am a Bears fan but I dunno about them going all the way lol that might be asking to much from fate. I mean seriouslly the Bears arent exactly lucky, but maybe this is the time for the turn around and I can be proud to be a bears fan in the open again lol. I mean you cant tell me the bears havent had a bad last decade or so.
Besides Im nervous as is :lol: I have to stay in a good frame of mind these next few weeks with my wedding comming up, Im nervous as is heh. Wish me luck and hope I dont panic or bummble my words. :Crossing fingers:

Okay, since everyone has unloaded on everyone else, can we get back to the mod now?


ComradeRED,

Don't know if it's because of this mod, but whenever I advance into the Industrial Age, my game has crashed to the desktop, always at the same point, exactly when the transition occurs. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm going to test it out some more tonight. I'll let you know what happens.

jbunnelle

Hmm jbunnelle what version Windows are you running? I have XP and had that problem to, but it only happened once. If it keeps persiting then you might have to uninstall run scan disk and defrag and then reinstall it and (in case you used the wrong 1.16f patch and you have XP that from what I get messed alot up) install the right one or the most recent. A rep from Fraxis told me that if you have XP and used there first version of the patch either way it makes a problem with progressing in the game. :(

Originally posted by jbunnelle
Okay, since everyone has unloaded on everyone else, can we get back to the mod now?


ComradeRED,

Don't know if it's because of this mod, but whenever I advance into the Industrial Age, my game has crashed to the desktop, always at the same point, exactly when the transition occurs. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm going to test it out some more tonight. I'll let you know what happens.

jbunnelle

Hi,

I had never such problems. I'm now nearly at the end of the industrial age (it's around 1830) and all works fine.
I'm running the game on a AMD K6/2+ 500 with 256MB and Win98SE.

Lakon

Hmm I still am pretty sure this could be an XP problem. :( I mean all other Windows versions seem okay but XP well that just stinks at the moment heh.:p

Well... I'm running under Windows ME, but game (ver. 1.07f) crashs always when I try to make one of this wonders: Halocaust, Trade Free Agency, Das Kapital.
I think that there are some troubles in that MOD, maybe something about icons that I don't see.
Try to see you were completing one of those wonders... if crashes happend in that case, the problem is the wonders
I hope that a patch will come soon, cause I like this MOD.
Waiting to find a good sign to put in my profile, I want to say hallo all from Italy.

I installed the mod, replacing all necessary files (version 4) and attempted to play the game as the English, starting in the correct position, but it refused to load properly. I have patched up my version also, while the saved games were saved in version 1.07f (they are still loadable after upgrading Civ3). I therefore have two questions:
1) Where can one find version 5 complete with all the files?
2) Is the mod not compatible with the up-patched Civ3? What could be the problem? Is a new version, up-patched, required?
BTW, I am using Win 98, so this is no XP-problem. Thanx for your help, since I really look forward to playing this mod :)

I have a problem, when I'm building Das Kapital, the game crashes in the moment it is finished.
Anyone else has this problem?

Lakon

As I wrote, game crashs everytime you try to build The Halocaust, The Trading Agency, Das Kapital and I don't know which other wonder... :(
It's a trouble of the MOD, now I'm sure...
ComradRED... try to do something!! Make a new version of this MOD, cause I find it very interesting... :scan:
Bye all :king: :rocket:

Political discussion, except that DIRECTLY related to the mod and having some usefulness toward its creation and improvment, is off topic in this forum, flaming is contrary to forum rules. This thread is temporarily locked while I clean it up some, Current pnealties have not yet been determined. All the off topic and flame posters here are, at a minimum, on a NO MERCY LIST for future episodes. Civfanatics center will not tolerate this stinking up of threads in the on topic game forums.


EDIT: I have cleaned up this thread so it can used for its purpose and within the topic of the forum. Plenty of post room now, and you can actually find the posts dealing with the subject. It would have been much (over two hours) easier just to lock or delete it. A certain someone may wish to acknowledge this effort in the site feedback or by PM to avoid being relagate to a **** list. :D

I will be recomend for scapegoat status and 3 day restriction, based on volume of off topic posts with additinal weight to flame content or obnoxiousness:

miltonfreidman (note to self if I ever deign to do real debate on these forums, recruit this guy for my side)
Kalirob2k2
Frosti
Edit: After staff consultations, all scapegoats here are realeased, free of penalty.

Special mercy to ComeradeRed on account of delievering a product here and who WANTED to remain within topic despite his flood of verbiage outside the forum topics....And we want him to deal with renaming the halocaust wonder to something less sensitive and more generic.

redtom is already up for restriction for threadjacking in another thread.

ON TOPIC, gentleman. You are only allowed to be fanatic about civ in the game forums here.

[SIZE=3]A reminder getlemen, response to moderator action is off topic anywhere except the site feedback forum.[/SIZE

Originally posted by AlexitoITA
As I wrote, game crashs everytime you try to build The Halocaust, The Trading Agency, Das Kapital and I don't know which other wonder... :(
It's a trouble of the MOD, now I'm sure...
ComradRED... try to do something!! Make a new version of this MOD, cause I find it very interesting... :scan:
Bye all :king: :rocket:


Sorry, I did not see your thread.
I'm trying to solve the problem by editing the civclopedia.txt by adding entries for the new wonders (in the editor you can see, what they are supposed to do).
I'll let you know, if it works.

Lakon

Okay, I figured out what was crashing my game and it had nothing to do with this mod (although I'm not as far into it as some of you so I don't doubt that your Wonder crashes are due to this add-on). I had to reinstall Civ and it didn't remove the old registry items. After I went in and manually edited the registry, the crashing stopped. If you have to uninstall and reinstall for whatever reason, be sure to do this.

jbunnelle

It's not that easy as I thought!
Adding the wonders to the civilclopedia.txt did not help.
The game is still crashing when building Das Kapital.
Maybe ComradeRed can fix it, because I like this mod and would love to get a Courthouse in every city (that's what Das Kapital does).

Lakon

This is more a pfff don't want to call it a reply to the 'Moderator's Comment, but suppose thats what it is, really.

Moderator Action: Despite it not approving or
glorifying the event, this is still too offensive and insensitive to
remain at Civfanatics, you must either rename or delete this
wonder from your mod, or withdraw your mod from this site

What is this Game, Civ? If not some sort of a reflection of what has been, what is, and what can be...???

If so, do we have to do 'nice nice' or create a game that is as exciting as life, and includeds both the good and the bad.....

If I'm to understand the Moderator correctly, why not remove pollution also? It offends me.

The Patman

Hi.

I know I'll get a beating for this. I read through the Fascist Mod threads. I must be one really detached human being... Anyhow, read the whole thing before you decide to cane me.

The Moderator action is interesting. On the one hand, the author has a right to include The Holocaust in his/her pack. If we, as users, do not like it, we have the ability to choose NOT to download the MOD.

On the other hand, this board is generously hosted by someone, and has intrusted the moderator (assuming he isn't the host) to keep their forum in line with the principle's of their own beliefs. Perfectly understandable - it's their home and they can do what they wish in it and ask others to act any way they wish.

Okay, something to consider about the Jewish Holocaust inclusion. We should call it The Jewish Holocaust at this point - we've had over a half dozen holocausts that the powers of the world have closed their eyes to in the 20th century and I have no doubt that there will be even more arising in this century... Guess Civ3 really is a lot like life - how many of you get involved when Rome, Germay, or China are Hell bent on wiping out Persia?

What is amazing about the Jewish Holocaust is the massive scale and the organization it took. Let's face it, it's an amazing feat - inconcievable not only because it is heinous but because of the resources and planning and mind boggling execution (dang - that is NOT a pun, I just can't think of any way of stating it). Dismissing the Holocaust as a world changing event is dangerous. After all, in a very sick way - I can't stress this enough - in a very very sick way - it was brilliant. It allowed an extreme fascist government to keep its people fiercly cohesive and single minded to accomplish a goal of world domination. I'd feel ill building any type of holocaust personally. I've never used a nuclear bomb in the Civ games. I still haven't a clue what it looks like in Civ 3. Nobody used one on me.

It seems to me that the major problem isn't that it was a tragic event, but that the game chooses to call these events/creations "Wonders". Yes, it is a "wonder" that a civilization of people organize themselves specifically to brutally eradicate another one. But I don't think that's what the game creators meant. Wonders are generally associated with good things, although I have to wonder how good The Manhattan Project really was.

Personally I don't care if it is included or not. Even though I'd never use it, I would welcome it as a possible goal for a fasist, monarchy, fanatic or despotic rule that I am fighting against. I'd welcome an opporunity to make sure it doesn't happen, or even to punish those that accomplish it. It happens more often that anyone cares to admit and there are direct results. If the author chooses to include it in his pack - or a different mod - not posted on this particular website, it has to be handled properly -

I. There HAS to be a significant depletion of resources. Incredibly high amount of production. Twice the shields of your most expensive wonder. After all, it is an on-going campaign.

II. Population loss. Ethnic cleansing will remove all the ethnic people who have assimilated into your culture. There has to be some sort of simulation of the loss - all the cities lose -2 population, perhaps?

III. Unhappiness. For most civilians living in the culture that is doing the ethnic cleansing, it creates unhappiness.Usually there is a split in the civilian population about the cleansing - the unhappiness arrives primarily due to the increased taxing, the taking of private possessions to fund the cleansing, and so on. After all, the culture has basically committed themselves to a fanatical war.

IV. This part kills me - the "benefits". Well, there would definately be a some sort of better attack thingy (I don't know the technical guts of Civ) due to the fanaticism of the troops.

V. Immunity to spy activity due to heightened propaganda activity.

VI. Time. This goes with the last three. This needs to last only for a period of time after it is built. The unhappiness and troop attack should end when a player discovers a certain advance. This I can't stress enough - any type of holocaust wonder shouldn't last the entire game. Historically after a few hundred years, even if they would remain fascist I think, express some remorse or shame.

I registered specifically to respond to this post. Lately I've been thinking of The Manhattan Project's role in Civ and a lot of my thoughts on that sort of seeped into this response. Hope I gave the author, as well as any other read something to chew on.

The holocaust idea is pretty well discussed, except the results you get out of it. :sniper:

If we look at history it is pretty much the following:

- Money (the Germans took all the Jewish possessions, and overall, the Jewish were very rich (that's why they were despised))

- Solving Unhappiness (I can remember shootage of Hitler standing in a stadium screaming to all these people about killing the Jewish people and stuff. The crowd loved it)

That's about it. There was NO loss of people, as the Germans 'imported' new people from other countries. And there is no political setback (back then, only the Russians, Americans and the countries under German control were against the 3rd Reich, while the Japanese were their allies).

Only thing is, it should really cost a huge amount of shields.

I was speaking of holocausts in general. In the case of Hitler's Nazi extremism, he deployed a massive scale of propaganda, and it is true that he made tried to make sure that the loss of Jewish skilled labour wouldn't hurt his empire too much. Personally, I think he underestimated how much it would hurt his rule in the long run. Remember, he failed - so we really didn't see the long term effects of the loss of Jewish lives in a extreme fascist rule. Also remember that you are using the most famous and publicized holocaust in the western world concocted by a brilliantly insane man. I think my suggestion was valid when you consider the history of most holocausts in the world. There has been well over 100 holocausts to date. Not always, but often the victims are integrated somewhat into the society that is doing the extermination. When those victims are lost, there is a documented hit to the social structure of the dominant culture. It takes several decades to reorganize themselves to fill the void of services that were once filled by the victims. This should be accounted for and timed in the game by waiting until a new discovery. Unhappiness is also documented because often the propaganda to engage blind support simply isn't there. Sure people may love their leader, and turn a blind eye to exterminating what their government and culture has labeled as "scum," but that doesn't change the fact that they get weary of their sons being called into death squads, losing their valuables to support the cause, etc. Unhappiness, doesn't neccesarily mean unhappiness or doubt the government, it means unhappines with the affairs of their own lives.

True, there are many many cases where it was pure colonialism and doesn't fit my suggested changes for a holocaust wonder in the game. The Moari in New Zealand weren't integrated into British culture, and their genocide went virtually unnoticed without any need of propaganda (though there was a cover up later...) because they were on a different continent. However, those particular indigenous holocausts are unique to colonial period.

Lots of 20th century internal holocausts like Kosovo, Rawanda, Cambodia, Turkey (Armenian Holocaust), Mexico (indigenous Holocaust during Revolution) and so on are very complicated. I hate to try and simply them, but since we have to for the sake of gameplay, I don't think it is unfair to write that my suggestions would fit the pattern of all these holocausts.

You said "(I can remember shootage of Hitler standing in a stadium screaming to all these people about killing the Jewish people and stuff. The crowd loved it)"

Watching a snippet of cheering people in a stadium isn't quite representative of what actually happened. Not everything you see on TV is true.

I've already addressed the loss of labour, but since you referenced only the Jewish Holocaust, let me counter with this; how long do you think a leader can continue to import skilled foreigners into his country from conquered territories? What are you going to do as a leader when you require skilled labour in those territories in which you took them from? If we were to apply it to Civ3, it means that you wouldn't be able to build... say a bank or a solar plant in conquered territories because you brought too many skilled labour from those areas to your homeland. Civ3 is too broad of a game to implent something like that, but I think overall, my population reduction suggestion is valid for the game.

You wrote "And there is no political setback (back then, only the Russians, Americans and the countries under German control were against the 3rd Reich, while the Japanese were their allies)."

What politcal setbacks are you talking about? I didn't suggest any. Besides, you said only "Russians, Americans, and other countries under German control"... That's quite a few Western Powers you listed there. Not exactly peanuts. Though, the United States didn't care what Hitler was doing enough to stop it until the Japanese attacked them and THEN they declared war on Japan, Germany and Italy. Same with the USSR, they didn't care until Hitler attacked them. You are right in that the world powers didn't act fast enough. That is true in most holocausts and that is why they succeed. Hitler failed not because anyone cared that he was slaughtering the Jewish people, he failed because he was too ambitious in his world domination. Hitler is a poor example to use because he wasn't simply concerned with wiping out a race of people, he wanted total domination of the planet. Also, don't forget that Africa, India and lots of Carribs fought in WWII, mostly helping the allies fight occupying Japanese forces. My great uncle fought in the Indian Army in Africa. I remember his stories well. Granted, these were all colonies, but by then colonial hold wasn't what it used to be and the colonies fought willingly. My point is that there WAS politcal ramification for Hitler. If you want to play this scenario in Civ3, you will see it reflected in later polics. If you attack someone, I guarantee they will attack back. If they have a mutal pact, you wil find yourself with two or more enemies. If you offer someone wealth, or are fighting someone that another country is dying to get their claws into, then you may find an ally. WWII and Hitler's holocaust was all political. To say that there was no "politcal setback" is ludicrous.

Okay, before anybody responds to this again, let me stress that my suggestions do not pertain SOLEY to the Holocaust that occurred in Nazi Germany, but to holocausts in general. It was part of my suggestion to the author to implement a holocaust wonder that relfects what has happened worlwide.

I just read my post, when I said that there isn't often enough propaganda to maintain absolute happiness, I wasn't falling over my suggestion that Spy activity wouldn't work for the period of time in which the wonder was active. Spy activities are on the intelligence and governmental level which have far intenser internal propaganda in these situations. Short term spy immunity would seem to be a realistic benefit in the game.

Can anyone tell me where I might find a complete list containing all the properties of the ideologies in this mod (e.g. pros/cons)?

Thanks.

Originally posted by Uto3
The holocaust idea is pretty well discussed, except the results you get out of it. :sniper:

If we look at history it is pretty much the following:

...

That's about it. There was NO loss of people, as the Germans 'imported' new people from other countries. .

No loss of people? Besides the murder of millions of people, think of the "quality" of some of the people who successfully fled the country. Germany lost musicians, engineers, scientists (ala Albert Einstein) that couldn't just be replaced by just another body from another country. To truly reflect the consequences of the Holocaust, this should be taken into account as well by perhaps causing a decrease to the scientific and luxury production.

Damn most of you guys are truly racist and narrown minded... Fascism has the right to exist! :love:
I love you little happy liberal racists. Liberals are the true fascists!

All people are discussing over fascism... I'm Italian, I know what fascism did, the right things and the bad one... I think that fascism is a part of the history of the last century, but the thing that I think most important for this forum is... why doesn't this mod work? :lol: :confused:
I'm waiting for some news about the Mod.
I read the threads, I found some of them very interesting... Fascism, in its totality, was a big mistake... Holocaust, racial laws... all things that were and are terrible.
However, I think that in a game that wants to be complete must have Fascism as it has Comunism and Fundamentalism.
There is not problem if someone doesn't like it... after all, this is only a game. Ad a good one, I can say.
Happy new year to you all.
:king: :rocket:

After reading the reply by Skarekrow (which was about the size of a novel) I think I have to defend my arguments some more.

This thing about the video footage of Hitler in this stadium and stuff was just to illustrate the reaction of the German people. It IS what really happened and even if you see it as propaganda, you can see the truth in Hitler's words.

The situation was like this in about 1930:

-If someone would lose a bag with 1 million Marks, he would be sad because he lost the BAG, not the money. The inflation was inconceivably high. Everybody was poor back then.

-The rich people were the jewelers and stuff, and they were mostly Jewish. People got jealous and this resulted in the 'Crytal Night', when all the Jewish shops got plundered.

So the Germans were upset by their 'instant poorness' and they blamed the Jewish people who were still rich and the reigning Weimar Republic (which governed Germany from 1918 till 1933 I think).

By destroying the Jewish and ending the Weimar Republic Hitler solved the major unhappiness in Germany and he continued by even making them happy by organizing the Olympic Games and creating work for almost everyone.

BUT, this is what happened in the German holocaust. The other holocausts are usually started by war weariness in the armies that are invading another country or something like that. They don't solve unhappiness, I agree with that, but in the MOD we are talking about the German\Jewish holocaust or maybe the Spanish (these 2 were the major holocausts) and they DID solve unhappiness (the Spanish invaders looted the Indian villages and sent gold and silver back home).

The 2nd thing, about politics: - America and Russia were less then nothing back then in military power. It was bad weather that stopped the Germans in Russia and some German arrogance that made D-Day work. And Japan and Italy didn't really care about the holocaust.

The 3rd thing, about the loss of 'quality' people: - Where do you think the Panzer, U-boot, these airplanes (Messerschmidt??) and stuff come from???? The Germans also tested new medicines. They had enough 'quality' labour, as the ratio wasn't upset that much.

That's about it...I hope you guys comprehend my lousy English :)

I believe Germany lost because they were outnumbered at the D-day... They also had little oil, that's why they did go after Stalingrad. The Allies had superior resources and lots more soldiers, that is in my opinion why they won.

About the Holocaust, I kind of agree that it may not be suitable in a mod like this. But if possible for a WWII scenario. I believe there should allready be present such camps in some cities. They can never be built and when Allies invade that city, the camps are automaticly destroyed and gives a bonus to the Allies in some way. That said, I also believe as long as the German has control over these camps, they should provide some bonus aswell, perhaps: less corruption (they also sent criminals to these camps), more happiness (less crime in country), production bonus (as they used cheap slave labor).

These camps (perhaps they should be called Consentration Camps instead of Holocaust) could also be used for other civs in other scenarios. I believe the english used it (slightly differen) in the war against the Boers, were they put all Boer woman and children in such camps.

But I also believe that burning down cities is just as bad as Holocaust, In Civ you could practically kill millions this way. Thats why it is so bad that cities size 1 is automatically destroyed, I don't like this feature and don't like killing civilians... allthough this is just a game...

About D-Day:

It is true that the German forces were outnumbered, but this was due to the fact that the Germans were too self-confident.

D-Day was a full-scale attack on Normandy. The Germans DID know about the attack, but thought it would take place at Calais. The Axis forces were very surprised about the attack in Normandy and had no mobility to get there in time, so the Allies could break through and split up. If the Germans would have put about 3 divisions extra at Normandy, they would have won the war I guess. Because then they would have enough forces left to put off the Russians.

In the end it was just arrogance.

a few things:
first off, with my previous status as "the" weimar_republic, I will put a little input into this holacaust {spelling?} debate.

I am a leftist. I think that its discusting. its horrible, it is the single worst event in the all of the history of the planet. I wish it never happened, and if I had my way, I would plug hitler into a machine that causes pain but does not kill... BUT, an its a big but, it DID happen. Hitler DID live. hitler DID bring germany out of the depression, and DID almost conquor the world. he was, in terms of the economey, brilliant. he was, however, in terms of social belifs, a total idiot. His "final solution" which is a possible rename, was helpfull to his empire. He made the nazi's happy. it did, however, decrese population. The important thing is that is did happen, and we should talk about it, and it should be in the game. since I am not allowed to respond to the mod's action here, I will just say that in your first post you have 4 well names wonders.

second, gov suggestions:
this thread is so long, I have skimmed it, and will comment on the gov's in your primary post. I havent played the game yet, it was the first topic I replied about that made me emotionally active enough to reply. my motto is talk ABOUT it dont talk IN it. {say "hitler was a good man" not "all jews suck" although I disagree with both these statements. I, in fact, have a good jewish friend.} back to the gov's

Capitalism
should get in alot of money, and production.
no martial law
3 corruption {scale of 0-10, despotisim in game at 10}
pay to rush build
no paied for units
warwerriness level at 6
1 deaft, big resentment
1+1/2 worker prod.

Corporatism
should get alot of money, and if possible, more money
matrial law, 2 units
4 cor
pay ro rush
1-2-3 paied for units {town-city-metro}
warwerriness at 5
2 draft, big resentment
1+1/2 worker prod.

Social Democracy and/or Democratic Socialism
should get alot of production
no martial law
2 cor
pay to rush
no paied for units
1 draft, unimmaganable resentment, highest possible level. SD's hate war
1+1/2 worker prod.

Soviet Communism {stalinist please, lenin was a marxist}
should get +2 prod if possible maybe more food if not possible
high martial law, 5, 6 maybe
5 cor
pop to rush
3-4-5 units
2 draft, low resentment

Fascism
money and prod, minus food for the minorities exiled/killed
high martial law, same as SovCom
5 cor
pop to rush
3-4-5 units
2 draft, no resentment {possible}

REAL Communisim {you call it marxist}
should get alot of production
no martial law
0 cor {hey, on paper its susposta work this way... just like when I draw a picture on paper, I can be the king of the world :)}
pop to rush
no paied for units
1 draft, very high resentment
1+1/2 worker prod.

palace distance things for things like communisim and socialisim and realated gov's, plus corproate stuff.

my suggested gov's:

Social Conservativism {pellaken_kee@hotmail.com, I plan to make a political party} the main belif is that the rich should have to pay high taxes, but businesses shouldent have to pay taxes so high that they leave for other nations. we also belive in a big military, but that it shouldent be used unless nessacary. etc...

extra prod
no martial law
3 cor
pay to rush
2 free unit per settlement {menaing free defence, pay for offence}
1 draft, high resentment


some suggestions to de-leftise the game
make leftwing improvements cost alot. the way I see it, production is a left wing thing. left wings should take away money, and make production in exchange. right wing things, should take away production, but give money in exchange. perhaps this helps?

well, this post is quite long enough already... time to go and test the mod out :)

ComradeRed should not be forced to remove the holocaust. Civ3 already has many far more evil things in it, why single out the holocaust? I mean you can wage wars, raze cities to the ground and commit genocide without a mod already. We have the pyramids, which was built with slave labor. We have Magellan's voyage - which paved the way for European Colonization that killed far more then the Jewish Holocaust. We can use forced labor to work our populations to death. We have monarchies, which have committed many more atrocities then fascists. And nuclear weapons and tons of other evil things. If all these evil things can be in here, then I see no reason why the Jewish Holocaust can't be allowed in a mod as well.

Civilization is supposed to be based on history. And the history of civilization is filled with evil and atrocities and crimes against humanity, just as it has many wonders. Unfortuently our history isn't all happy go-lucky. Pretending these things didn't happen will not make them go away.

The Pyramids were not built by slaves.

Certain words obviously carry enormous emotional weight, so why use them? I believe the very contemporary "Ethnic Cleansing" covers all (and here I speak quite literally) sins from deportation to genocide.

However, as these barbarities certainly can and perhaps should be incorporated, I would suggest it be an "improvement", carried out locally, rather than a minor wonder, with the attributes "Resistant To Propoaganda" and "Reduce Corruption" AND generates 1 Unhappy Face.

Humbly,

Oz

Originally posted by ruprecht
Okay, why would any civilization want to build this Holocaust wonder if its sole purpose is to give other nations a rational to attack them? Even a concentration camp city improvement needs a rational. Does it cut down on crime? Scare your population into submission?

It makes little sense to have game options that only a lunatic would choose, even its based on a historical reality.

Of course if the Holocaust could somehow kill off all people in your civ not of your nationality you could end dissent in your captured cities. Rid yourself of all the Zulu's and Babylonians in the cities you captured and leave just your race.

I have created my own government additions, however I'm doing them seperately rather than in 1 file. My solution to the negetive of Fascism was simple.

I took the view that to balance the unhappiness caused by limted civil rights, a fascist regime would have to embark on expensive domestic propaganda projects.

I then thought, Imagine these virtual projects and their affect on the game. I just place corruption and waste up to catastrophic, as I felt that these alone would make the government and citizens more inclined to spend money on other such projects, wasting money.

The corruption also balances out the higher production rates.

Does the game still crash for all of you when you build some of the wonders; Holocaust, Free Trade Agency & Das Kapital? In my version anyway it used to, but with a few changes I made, I think I've fixed it. Reply if you want me to post the fixed files :).

Yes please post the fixes you made that would be cool!

Originally posted by celtic_bhoy
Does the game still crash for all of you when you build some of the wonders; Holocaust, Free Trade Agency & Das Kapital? In my version anyway it used to, but with a few changes I made, I think I've fixed it. Reply if you want me to post the fixed files :).

It would be great, if you can post these fixes.
I tried to fix it myself, but I was not able to do it yet.

Lakon

Hey lakon just go into photoshop and change all the wondersplashes to indexed color files and it should work.

Details, Details............ I don't know why my mod won't work right...... if that person would post the fixed version........... I could put it in the beginning of the post, giving credit where due of course.

A fast but not very elegant solution is to copy one of the working wondersplashes and rename it to the broken ones.
You will get the picture of the wrong wonder but you can build it.

Lakon

ComradeRed, are you still working on this mod? Lots of nice ideas, good work...

well, not anything that's gonna be released soon. I made my own little fun mythical civilization and added a broadcasting tower that primarily creates culture.

hopefully I can get your mod working when I finally get my copy of Civ3 (yes, I know I haven't gotten it yet!)... As a marxist myself, I cringed when I saw how the 'base' game depicted communism. The evil, "forced labor" depiction is just pain. It's sad how bad Stalin corrupted such a system.

But nonetheless, I'm glad someone stood up and fixed what needed to be fixed... :)

Originally posted by RaVE
As a marxist myself, I cringed when I saw how the 'base' game depicted communism. The evil, "forced labor" depiction is just pain.

They were nicer to you then they were to Anarchists. It's too bad this game promotes all these stereotypes and whatnot. :(

Did this mod ever get fully functional? It sounds like one of the best ones, PERIOD. Civ3's government structures are far too simplistic.

And not everyone has photoshop.

Oh, also: "Holocaust" is spelled like that. :)

Hey, finally found this site again. :)
Sorry to see work on the mod stopped.
I've got my own gov-mod tweaked, but I just don't know how to set them up right in the tech-tree.
Anyway, been playing with this some more, and..
Am I missing something big, or is there really no reason to ever switch from Anarcho-Socialism, which can be achieved fairly early on?

ComradeRed, Hey sounds awesome, please post a confirmation when its fixed. I just got registerd. I have been at Apolyton.

Yeah, let us know if you update... I just recently got my Civ3 and your mod seems really awesome...

I have a suggestion, BTW.
Marxist Communism ought not to have upkeep costs, seeing as it's a society of super-abundance.
Also, I think that no computer-controlled Civ ought to be able to be of the socialistic governments. Seeing as it would be controlled by the 'workers' of the particular nation, it going to war, being hostile in any way, would just not make sense. Sure, you could have it, maybe, to only target fascists and capitalists -- but that's still not accurate (fraternization and not war would be called for), and, anyway, if the /player/'s civ had become socialistic, why would it need to fight another which is?
Hehe. :)
Sortof leads to the extra-cool scenario whereby it is YOUR CIV which leads the world into the revolution and new age -- by culture-expansion (which should go /through the roof/ for Marxist Communism) you would 'win over' more and more of the cities from other nations as the people in them 'cast off their oppressors', as I believe the in-game message says. ;)

In any case, I still believe that the idea I had months ago on 'government types' and not 'scientific advances' moving the game along is still more accurate to the theories. My idea for implementing it would be a very thorough edit of the tech-tree and city-improvements, and wonders too -- though I certainly don't have the know-how. But what this would mean is that, in order to produce new units, to 'keep up', one would have to move through the socioeconomic systems which provided adequate resources. This would neccessitate the kind of progression which is natural in the development of productive forces, yes?
And at the end of it, in the modern-age, several branches, to faccilitate certain playing styles. There's the path of shaky but profitable Capitalism, brutal and miserable but militarily strong Fascism ('Capitalism in decay'), scientifcally and productively stagnant yet invincible-to-subversion-and-malcontent fundamentalist-ruled government, financially rough but productively superior-to-all-else communism. If starting without adequate resources, deformed -- bonapartist, Stalinist. But if done with adequate industry and capital, genuine. That of course doesn't fit every circumstance historically, but plays out well for the game.
And, perhaps, as the Wonder-of-the-world by which to end the game, classless society.

...all a whole lot of work which I'm not good enough to do, but just my said-for-the-second-time suggestions to try to help out a bit. ;P Really enjoying the mod, though, Red. :) Thanks for it.

Hey, Celtic_bhoy i thought you said you were going to post the fix you found for everyone. It's been days so spit it out all ready. I am dying to use this mod so please respond or anybody who has figured out how to make this baby work!:(

You will not escape! You shall be permanently terminated!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Well, soon, when I find time enough to go through and make sure everything works, I'll submit a version without the halocaust, and it will be the only available version, as I have been ordered to do, or have the mod deleted......... So stay tuned.

Good thing I already downloaded the version that has the halocaust. That's such B.S. where do people get off with ignoring the past and pretending it never happened, I dont understand that and never have, if you want to prevent something like that from happening again you dont close your eyes and pretend it never happened but, aknowledge that it did happen and why it happened so it never happens again.

Anyway, Thanx for trying to make the game more historicaly accurate ComradeRed. Whenever you update us on this patch to make it work, I'll do everything to make it work except take out my halocaust wonder.

By the way, I have been dying to see a fascist unit in the game for the goverment, and I suck at making mods and stuff so could you make one ComradeRed or get the word out to those who do know how to do one. Thanx again.

Well, what would make a fascist unit special? would it just be a single fascist sitting there and be fun to kill? Please describe this unit more, acknowledging that I can't do certain things without mastering hexediting, which could take years. (many have suggested I add things that aren't possible using the editor.)

What I mean is when someone implements the fascist goverment over their nation it gives them a little incentive having a fascist unit with high attack power. Remember Call to Power, when someone made a fascist unit with the goverment of coarse, the unit had a unusually high attack power because of their fanatical belief in what their fighting for. Thats what I'm talking about it gives you a little nudge to want to be bad, and a great addition to any would be war monger.:D

hmm, maybe I will.... but I gave up on Call to Power before too long, the damn slavers kept pissing me off..... and it ran slow and all...... Good game in theory, but ruined the best part of the game, the strategic planning.

what exactly were slavers, i never bought call to power

Just wondering if the Wonder Splash screens have been fixed yet, or did I miss a post. If I did ignore this message.

This isn't a flame (at least, it's not designed that way) but can you (this goes to ComradeRed, the Mod's designer) please spell the holocaust correctly. I'm sure this isn't intentional on your part, but everyone else (or so I think) has spelt it correctly in this thread, and it's getting on my nerves (a lot of things do). It is spelt:

HO LOCAUST

not HALOCAUST

Thanks very much in advance :)

Oh, and thanks for doing such a great mod, this is only a small (although somewhat annoying) error. :rolleyes:

slavers were a little unit that was stealth, came early in the game, and would steal people from your cities. Very, very annoying.

i have a slight problem. i was doing pretty good and i had just gotten engineering, and the game crashed. the pc autosaved right before that and i reloaded it. same thing, 4 times. it might have something to do with the fact that i was a feudilism, might not. might have somthing to do with the fact that i was germany. i don't know. just thought i'd let you know and see if i could get a suggestion as to what to do.

well, first see if you are also building one of my wonders that turn, I have had some problems with certain pics being wrong format or something, somehow where the game won't read them and will crash. Someone said you can change the format up in some post, and someone else said just replace the pics that crash with those that don't. I can't imagine engineering itself causing a crash though.

It won't tell you you built the wonder, but crash right before that.

i was building one of your wonders, the ivory trade, but i had three or four things that were going to be shown before that. that's why this makes no sense. if it was just the wonder i'd understand, but it's not. i don't have any of the programs that allow you to change formatts of pics. especially in the pcx format.

Well, rename them, I'll try to go through the pics when I fix the rest of the mod

I had been hoping people would post all the wonders they found didn't work

You have no respect of the death people who died in the Holocaust! :(

You might think it funny to put in a
catastrophal postal event into a COMPUTER GAME but this will take either legal action against you or IP bann from this forum.

Infrogames/Firaxis has it open to sue you for putting this criminal genocide into a computer game.

If you take out this genocide called Holocaust, committed by many Folks in world history, your mod might be interesting and alright to play with.

Personal statement:
remove it and i might play it...

BUT it's
Repectless.

I'm shocked...

Originally posted by ufftyuwe
You have no respect of the death people who died in the Holocaust! :(

You might think it funny to put in a
catastrophal postal event into a COMPUTER GAME but this will take either legal action against you or IP bann from this forum

Somehow totalitarian communism, warfare, razing cities, nuclear weapons, and Monarchies are okay but the holocaust isn't?!? That's moronic, the above have killed far more then Hitler's holocaust. The game already has genocide, it happens everytime a civ is destroyed. Removing the holocaust just helps neonazi revisionism, trying to erase the holocaust from history.

Golowka,

this is a matter of humanity.

this IS a SIMPLE computer G-A-M-E
and NOT a real life simulation.

razing cities, bla bla contains a lot of game's BUT
the Holocaust is a NAME for genocide and THIS is
absolutely NOT playable!

If you don't understand it, I'm sorry.

I don't care how many Civ's you destroy or whatever...

but the WORD Holocaust should NOT appear as well as concentration camp or Nazi...
this has NOTHING to do with a GAME like Civilization.

I should repeat for americans: It's a game and holocaust is something happened in real, as well as camps and Nazis.
It has nothing to do with this game. This game is about building up a civ and not bringing real life world hap's in there.

I hope someone of you has a last bit of mass in his brain to decide between Game and RealWorld.

Thx

Nuclear weapons are a NAME for mass murder too, should they not be allowed in the game? It's hypocritical to say the holocaust shouldn't be in a mod and yet have no problem with Bolshevik communism or monarchism (which killed way more then the holocaust). Your'e right, it is a GAME, not real life. This holocaust doesn't actually kill anyone. When you switch to monarchy you are doing something which would be highly unethical in real-life. But because it is a GAME you aren't actually hurting anyone real and so it's not unethical. Furthermore, I like having the holocaust in so the AI can build it. Then I can wage a great war against the evil Nazis and liberate the Jews (and Roma and Slavs and other victims). This adds a nice storyline element and makes the game more fun (for me anyway). In real life