Are the civics going to effect the civs economy? All previews say its going to make you citizens more happy, but theres no information on what will happen with your economy or commerce. If theres no effect, then I must say its LAME. :mad: Am I right?

I think its very similar to what SMAC did. So it will probably effect numerous categories.

I have the impression that Civics somehow meand Government from the infos we've got until now. Am I right or wrong?

Onto your topic, civics will certainly have an effect on economy, because one civic (confirmed) is "free market (laissez-faire capitalism?) - state controled market (communism)". And this has to have an effect on economy, mustn't it?

mfG mitsho

Woy. Wait a minute. Civics is same as government. I hope not. I thought it will be just an addition to government and culture and everything...

@ mitscho
Free market: freie Marktwirtschaft
state controled market: Planwirtschaft

They dont have nothing to do with the government in RL. However, as I said nobody said a word about the economy only about the production of happy faces.

Well, they have nothing to do with government directly, yes. But I wouldn't rule it out completely.

But there have been said words about civics and governemnts, and there has been said words about civics and the economy civic! So, my conclusion was the above. These are not my own words, but what I read in the previews!

mfG mitsho

I think they did say they replaced governments with Civics. Like I said, its similar to Social Engineering in SMAC. Governments still exist, just not in preset packages.

@ mitscho
Free market: freie Marktwirtschaft
state controled market: Planwirtschaft

They dont have nothing to do with the government in RL. However, as I said nobody said a word about the economy only about the production of happy faces.
A state controlled economy has nothing to do with the goverment?

The economy has everything to do with government, because even a free market will only exist if those in power create laws which allow it to exist.

There have to be at least a FEW economic civics. Free market versus planned at the very least. Maybe Mercantile, or Anarcho-Capitalism, but I'm just throwing those out for food for thought :)

Not to mention Civics that are indirectly economic (ie Slavery v. Emancipation)

Ok, civics are great. But there has to be some foundation on which you can build civics. Or not?

I do believe that there is some basis, Kozez. From what I understand, as you build up your repertoire of social/cultural/commercial and governmental techs, then both the number and flexibility of your Civics options increases. For instance, at the start of the game, it is almost certain that your economics will be communal or centrally planned in some fashion, but as you pick up various commercial and governmental techs, then you might be able to make your economy mercantile or feudal or free market, etc etc.
As for set government types, it doesn't seem as though any specific labels are in. However, Hearts of Iron 2-which also incorporated a form of social engineering-could generate a Government Label based on your nations' position on both a Right/Left political axis and a Democratic/Authoritarian axis-and I hope and pray that they will adopt a similar system for Civ4, because I too will miss specific governmental labels.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

....because I too will miss specific governmental labels...

I don't think I'll miss the convinient specific labels for gov'ts (what is the real difference between a democracy and a repulbic anyhow?? seems like apples and oranges to me...), but I do think it would be fun to name your government type. Wait, scratch that, maybe not name the the government type, but add in the ridiculous pramble to a country's name that became so popular during the cold war. Remember great state names like "The People's Democratic Republic of Congo"? "The most Serene Republic of Genoa"?

I'd love to change "Persia" to "The GLorious Kindom of Parsi" when i change to a monarchy, then switch to "The Most Democratic and Immortal Persian Republic" when I discover communism.... :lol:

5 categories for civics:
- free market vs. state controlled market
- secularism vs. theocracy

QUESTION: What are the other 3 civics? authoritarian vs democratic? federalism vs. centralism? emancipation vs. slavery (I know not quite good opposites)? etc.?

From these 5 civics, the government is formed. There are according to 'Computerbildspiele' 25 forms of government. (the magazine is lying just in front of me... :))

Does that mean every single civic combination got a name? What would that mean for the number of options between two opposites on one civic slider (can somebody calculate that? If it's possible, I'm not good at math...)? Or does it just mean that Computerbildspiele thought wrong (5 x 5 civics = 25)?

mfG mitsho

5 x 5 civics = 15
I think you meant 25

Yeah, I mistyped and I'm gonna correct in in a second... :) nevertheless thanks for the reminder...

civics may include military unit cost?

I'd imagine that civics will affect everything that governments affected in Civ 3, that survived to Civ 4 (ie if units have a maintenance cost, then that will probably be affected, if there is something like corruption, then that will probably be affected, etc.)

shouldnt there be 2^5=32 governments

either they used wrong math or they disallow certain combinations

Well, that is a key question which remains unanswered-does the 25 civics refer to the fact that you have 5 Civics Categories-with 5 choices each, or does it mean that there are 25 civics categories, or is it something in between?? Even if it is 5x5, the possible number of permutations (assuming no mutually exlusive choices) would be far FAR greater than just the 25 they mention. Perhaps what they mean is that their are 25 new 'civic options'-via the tech tree-between the start of the game and its end. Anyway, needless to say I will be waiting for baited breath on this one!
I think the key thing in all of these civics options is that there really needs to be a trade off at each step. For instance, if you favour conscription over a standing army, then your unit maintainance costs, and foot-unit build times, should be lower-but the rate at which they gain experience would be lower.
A free market economy would produce greater wealth, but demand for goods should be higher etc etc. Basically, you get something GOOD, but have to accept something BAD in return-the question is what good and bad elements are you-the player-prepared to accept. Lastly, the civics system will be even BETTER if two things are included: the ability to Mod in both new categories and new choices within categories AND if the various categories interact in various ways. For instance, the bonuses/penalties for being Isolationist (assuming that is a Civics category) may be very different between a Democratic and Authoritarian nation (again, assuming this category is in).
Sorry to blather on like that!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I was going to point out the various different Social Engineering options in Alpha Centauri and than think how they might relate to Civ4's civics, but I ended up playing the game instead. As the University, I was engaged in a war against the Morganites, Believers (who were my allies before suddenly hating me and declaring war), and the Hive (who I had crushed really early and they reappeared). I had the Guians (who agreed to follow me in exchange for not destroying them) and the Peacekeepers to help me. The Peacekeepers kept supplying me with units, since I was in danger of loosing to the Morganite armies (another feature that should be in Civ4 ;) ). I don't think I was very prepared, especially for the Probe Teams, but I've at least conquered a city).

As the University, I was engaged in a war against the Morganites, Believers (who were my allies before suddenly hating me and declaring war)... No surprise there. Believers are the natural enemies of the University.

With the talk of AI personalities, I hope that they are NOT as hard-wired as those of SMAC, as I don't think there should ever be any 'natural friends' and/or 'natural enemies' in a game like Civ-unless you are talking about a Scenario and-even there-I think that any starting enemies/friends should be able to change via gameplay.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

No surprise there. Believers are the natural enemies of the University.

I figured that was the reason. We were both in the middle of a war against the Spartans and I was trying to help them out (I think they asked me to declare war originally). Than, all of a sudden, they asked for something and I declined. Next thing I know, they attack one of my ships and I'm at war with them.

Just to help out Louis (the trick is to load a game you have already won, no fun in playing it ;) ), here is what the Social Engineering screen looks like in SMAC. I expect and hope that it will be something similar in Civ4:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/socialengineering.png

The empty space in the middle is 'Planed Market', which I am not allowed to select because of the faction I play (Morganites). In the beginning of a game you only have access to the four alternatives on the left.

In total it looks like SMAC has 4^4 = 256 different combinations of government. These give different bonuses and problems which can be seen to the right in that screen. In addition you have the tax sliders and the different ideologies of your faction.

Cheetah - Having never played SMAC, thanks for that post.

It's about time someone posted that. I've been asking for it for a while without actually knowing what it is ;) Shows how much you pick up other people on these forums.

I like that SMAC console concept - if that is how Civs will work it is a big plus to me. Much better than the 'fixed' governments of Civ3.

Those first three categories might make sense in Civ (Politics, Economics, Values), but what is "Future Society"? What could it be replaced by in Civ?

System of Opression?
Law system?
What?

Politics and Economics are a given. Judging by the inclusion of slavery, that could either tie into a concept of labor, or a concept of autonomy (or sufferage or libertarianism, as others have pointed out). Hard to say. Maybe both labor and autonomy are categories.

I like that SMAC console concept - if that is how Civs will work it is a big plus to me. Much better than the 'fixed' governments of Civ3.
Didn't mean to imply use it exactly - of coarse it would be tailored to suit Civ4 - no future stuff, etc.

Actually 'Future Stuff' in Civ4 could be something like Democracy/Communism/Fascism (ie liberty, equality, fraternity; an Ideal your society orients itself around)

From the seven civics we've been told of, I'd guess the five civics types fall out something like this:

Health (Environment)
Economics (Free Market, State-controlled Market)
Religion (Religious Tolerance)
Military (Conscription)
Civil Rights (Slavery, Emancipation, Free Speech)

The SMAC system is genius, but I reckon we will get a simplified version, if the developers are wishing to keep the game straightforward.

:)

SMAC didn't sound too complicated, actually. 4 X 4, with 4 of those being defaults. Sounds like Civ will be 5 X 5 (25 civics). 5 of them will probably be default. I imagine it might seem less complicated because it's more grounded in history, of course.

Actually, my hope was that it was 5x5 civics PLUS 1 default (i.e. starting) option for each category. So long as I can mod the number of categories and options, though, I don't really mind so much :)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I know it probably won't be this way, but what would be cool is something like this:
Government: Tribalism (start/default), Monarchism, Republicanism, Socialism and Fascism (not sure about the last two, though).

Representation: Absolutist (start/default), Authoritarian, Heirarchical, Democratic, Participatory.

Economics: Agrarian/Utilitarian (Default), Barter, Mercantilism, Central Planning, Free Market.

Freedoms: None (Default), Slavery, Indentured Servitude, Citizens' Rights (eg: like Apartheid), Universal Rights (i.e. equal rights for all).

Religion: Fundamentalist, Orthodox, Fervent/Pious, Reformist, Ecumenical.

As I said, though, so long as the basic categories and selections can be edited-or added to-then I would be happy!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

OK, I have actually given it a bit more thought, and would probably break it up as follows:

Government form: Tribalism, Monarchy, Republic, Dictatorship, Democracy.
Sufferage: Absolute, Authoritarian, Heirarchical, Constitutional, Representative, Participatory.
Chief Philosophy: None (Default), Fascist, Socialist, Agrarian, Theocratic, Militaristic, Plutocratic (Capitalist/Aristocratic).

Again, as I said above, I doubt it would be like this, but it would be so cool if I could edit it this way!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

The article in Computer Bild Spiele reported 25 forms of governement (Regierungsformen). They wrote, that the player can switch the forms of governement at any time. Then this article says: In five categories you build personal focal points: You can select between (now I use the german words) "Freie Marktwirtschaft" and "Staatsbesitz" and between "Religionsfreiheit" and "Gottesstaat". These terms where translated by Locutus to the English words you are talking about. As this are only 4 categories and then the article reported about emancipation, I think this could be the 5th categorie.

When I gave the first quick info at Evo, I didn´t speak about these things, cause I thought, there would be to much confusion if I make a wrong translation. I gave this to Locutus/Apolyton to translate. But Civ4 at this time is a stuff, where even the most acribic civ-professors are in danger of running in speculations. :crazyeye:

The article shows, that the magazine did differentiate between forms of governements and categories. I think, the 25 "civics" ( in the translation of Locutus it was the first time for me to hear this term) at this time are a speculation. What is, if the magazine mixed 5 forms of governement (let´s say Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Democracy and Fundamentalism - but in that article there stood no word of them) with these 5 categories ? What is if they have mixed up 6 forms of governement (let´s say Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Democracy, Communism and Fascism) with the 4 categories ("Freie Marktwirtschaft, Staatsbesitz, Religionsfreiheit, Gottesstaat") and than added emancipation ? At this time all about the number of civics is speculation.

I hope this helps a little bit.

From what I posted in another thread on Civics:

As far as math goes, IF you have 5 categories with 5 options in each one, and you have to select one option from each of those categories, the total number of possibilities is not 5*5 but 5^5 (or 5*5*5*5*5) which equals 3125 total possibilites. :eek:

We can hope. :D

Probably it's going to be the best Sid Meier's game :)