SGOTM7 - Xteam [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

AlanH

May 15, 2005, 04:32 AM

Welcome everyone, specially to TheNemesis666 (can we call you Nemesis? Or 666?). We have a stiff spamming target to maintain, and we expect you to do your bit :p

We just need Gator and a start file, now, and lots of discussion.

I started to reply to leif last night, but had to break off to release GOTM43. I'll post my random thoughts as they were then anyway. Some of them are repeats of suggestions above, but repetition helps emphasis :)

I seem to recall we played AW in our little game as Persia? Then we played a complicated kind of Almost-AW as Rome in SGOTM3. The first rule was to keep our heads down, which we did better as Rome than as Persia. Resist our normal instincts to wander off looking for neighbours. Neighbours are trouble, and they'll find us soon enough without our help.

- Our focus has to be on a tight defensible build, and since we are on Classic we should try hard for RCP to reduce corruption. RCP 3.x and 5.x? We can see land across the water to the east and west. Let's hope there's access, otherwise we are only going to have semi-circles.

- Our industrious workers should build roads to future city sites so that our settlers have minimal travelling time, and I guess we are going to have to put defenders in our border towns. Depending on how close we are to our neighbours, we might even have to build a few spears to defend the borders :eek:. We do have Bronze to start with.

- I would actually beeline Monarchy rather than Literature. Monarchy has to be our government of choice. Masonry is a high value tech, so we may be able to trade it to a near neighbour early and get them started on the Pyramids.

- I think we have to max out research rather than rely on building a cash mountain for up-front trading. Remember we can't do gpt deals. It's A Small World, Isn't It :p (damn that Disneyland tune!) so we'll only get - what - five or six tech trading opportunities? That may only be five techs and the rest we have to research ourselves.

- Domination is the only victory condition for an award, so we need to build enough culture to be able to hold cities against flips. Cheap libraries will be required, both to fuel our own research and for cultural protection.

- I guess we don't need contact trading, and unless we find we are alone on an island we can wait for Map Making, so I don't think I favour the Alphabet/Writing route. If M-B hasn't completely stymied us we should have horses to provide our early attack force.

- A reminder that we can't rush wonders before 1000 BC, and we'll never make peace, so no pointy stick research except the big one - capture the Great Library to provide a slingshot. 400 shields for a Great Library will buy us 13 horses. Capturing the Great Library should cost a lot less than 13 horses, and we'd probably be going that way in any case :D.

TheNemesis666

May 15, 2005, 06:04 AM

Nemesis is fine, or nem if you're really lazy. :)
I must admit, i've tried several AWD's today on a small map and things haven't gone well. No exploriring was the first thing I learned, something i'd already read somewhere, but some lessons just have to be learned the hard way. I also couldn't find anyway to build the great library without crippling my military output.
I've read a document on AWD sometime, somewhere on this site that i can't find again now. I've settled for reading a few AWD and AWS successions. Anyone with useful links please post them so I can check them out.
I'm GMT+10 by the way and as yet still haven't found a way around our new content filtering software at work. (i used to be able to get here before we swapped over but I can't now) So i'll probably only be able to post in the mornings or evenings my time. It's 10:00pm Sunday 15 May here at the time of this post.

leif erikson

May 15, 2005, 06:42 AM

@Alan - Agree with your points. :goodjob: :D

The only trouble I am having is trying to figure out how to hoard some Gold for upgrading units. I think we will need every "trick" we have learned to stay "in" this game. To maximize military unit production may require resource cutting, building cheap units quickly and upgrading them. That requires gold. :eek:

I realize we have to balance that against tech advancement as we can't upgrade a unit without IW or HBR. Never mind finding the resources necessary? :crazyeye: So the bottom of the AA tech tree sounds like our best shot at getting something we can trade, in our single opportunity. Though I must admit that I seldom have ventured there. I base that on reading Succession Game threads.

I think it will be very important to stay focused in this one, setting goals and reevaluating them as we discover new challenges. :)

I found THIS (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_did.shtml) in the Civ Academy. It is all about exploiting AI weaknesses, but I couldn't find anything specifically concerning AWD.

I imagine we should also begin thinking about our start. Do we dare to move? :mischief: If so, I'd think about 1 SW, only to gain more land tiles of value. So, it depends on what is to the SW and that means moving the worker? Otherwise, settle in place.

WillowBrook

May 15, 2005, 07:04 AM

XTeam building defensive units? Wow! :p

This should be a great game to watch!

While I haven't tried it myself, I have found the bait-and-switch tactic fascinating - put a weak or injured unit two turns away from AI units, all the units move toward it, leaving towns with only 3 or 4 defenders. But this is in Conquests games; I don't know if the AI are as stupid in Vanilla. (Handy's Theodora's excellent adventure in stories&tales is the most amusing write-up to read that uses this tactic.)

Gyathaar

May 15, 2005, 07:24 AM

A more common tactic is to move out all defenders out of a town.. the AIs will head for that town instead if the nearby towns are heavilly defended.. when they get within straike range, move in defenders from nearby towns and leav another town undefended instead.

Personally I think we should head for IW, wheel and mathematics before worrying about GLib or monarchy.. you dont need monarchy to win, it just makes it easier.. but we need to know where iron and horses are, and we need catapults to ping units with.

TheNemesis666

May 15, 2005, 07:53 AM

i agree that we need a more advanced unit than the resource free options. A sword can attack better than an archer and defend as good as a spear, it cost's 50% more but it's flexibility/durability makes up for it. Horses will be important for making 'safe' kills by attacking and returning to cover in a single turn. Any artillery will be invaluable in stacking the odds in our favour. In the test games i ran today I eventually started going for IW or HBR before even worrying about literature or monarchy. However all the games i played were failed attempts so this may not be a sound statergy. (I did put up more of a fight in the couple of games where i actually had iron or horses though)

Tomoyo

May 15, 2005, 08:07 AM

We are going to need spears this game.

I really, really, do not think we should beeline to Monarchy because that government will suck for us without any cities.

Also, do you think 13 horses will be enough to keep us up in the tech race? I think we should try to build the Great Library. I've played lots of AWD and every time I failed to get the Great Library (or didn't even try), I was stuck on 20-30 turn research in the late Ancient Age - don't overestimate our research potential. Especially seeing as this is Deity.

I think spears will actually be very valuable. Early on, we will not be able to produce enough attacking troops to deal with all the AI starting troops. Spears and walls therefore produce the best kill ratio until Horsemen and catapults.

Even if we do not try for the Great Library, we will be hard-pressed to find enough troops for an attack on the Great Library.

Of course, if we're alone on an island, this might be irrelevant...

AlanH

May 15, 2005, 09:41 AM

The debate's hotting up :thumbsup:

Re. Monarchy:

- Why won't we have any cities? We are targeting domination. It's a 3200 tile map. Assuming even 30% land that's 1000 tiles of which we need 600. That's 40-50 cities.

- We need fast production, and the despotic penalty will restrict us. Monarchy will still allow us to use MPs for happiness, release us from the third production despot penalty, and improve corruption a bit, while leaving us free of war weariness.

Re. other research choices:

- Please can someone convince me why it's a good ideal to build catapults? I've never been able to make the case, given that they never keep up with horses, they never seem to hit anything, and they certainly never kill anything. I would welcome some enlightenment.

Re. The Great Library:

Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't suggest that 13 horses would allow us to rule the world. We'll need a few more than that. I simply pointed out that for the cost of the Great Library we can build 13 *more* horses, and it's unlikely to cost us those 13 horses to capture the Library. Even if it did, we would probably have to take that city at some point anyway, whether it has the Library or not. Putting one productive city to sleep for hundreds of years to build the Library, when it may fail anyway, seems excessive.

Tomoyo

May 15, 2005, 09:49 AM

Re Re Monarchy:

If we beeline to Monarchy, by the time we get it (maybe turn 80-100), we will only have towns, due to keeping the population low by building settlers. (Remember, it takes twice as much food to grow from size 7 to size 8 than size 5 to size 6) Monarchy's unit support is 2-4-8, which means we'll have two free units per town until we get some cities. That alone will make Monarchy worse than Despotism. Also, I don't think we wlil be able to afford the Anarchy period until a bit later, unless we're alone on an island.

Re Re other research choices:

Because we're not gonna be able to attack for a long time! The AIs will collectively out-produce us by at least a 1:15 ratio and we need them to hold our line. Catapults may be bad for attacking cities, but we need to for defense.

Re Re TGL:

I am saying that it is pretty impossible to keep up in research without the Great Library. We will need an extremely large amount of troops to even defend ourselves, and we won't be able to build that much infrastructure, so we'll only be able to research a tech every 20 turns or so. On Deity, that's nowhere close enough to keeping up, or even riding the coattails. Yes, we would have to take the city with it eventually, but that's probably after the game has been decided. I would rather not try to attack cities defended by muskets or rifles with ancient age troops, because we're not getting anywhere past that without the GL.

Gyathaar

May 15, 2005, 10:57 AM

Every attacking unit that we hurt with a catapult will leave our territory to heal instead of attacking us.. this allows us to cope with less defensive and offensive units and still survive the initial unit rush from an AI we just went to war with.

If we are alone on an island then things change a lot.. then we should go for mapmaking asap so we can get out galleys, make contacs (and trade maps on first turn) and get the AIs into warmode so they build units instead of infrastructure

As for despotism vs monarchy.. the reason Tomoyo stated is the reason we dont want monarchy too fast.. we get less unit support in monarchy, and untill we have several 7+ cities, we will make a lot less gold (research) in monarchy than in despotism.
This also depends on if we are alone or not.. on an island to ourself we can do with less units, and can thus switch to monarchy earlier.

Tomoyo

May 15, 2005, 11:00 AM

Also, in vanilla, any AI ship you hit with a catapult goes all the way home. :D

leif erikson

May 15, 2005, 12:08 PM

Good discussion and I'll throw my $0.02 in.

I understand the reasoning to delay becoming a Monarchy and that we should think about cats; although every game I have played with them I find I need a stack of 10 to 12 to do much damage as they never seem to hit anything. :cry:

But let's think of this a little differently. What is the value of Polytheism and Monarchy for the purpose of trading, should we be able to have a monopoly on it. We get *one* chance to trade with each civ and need to get the greatest value from each trade. If we are researching what the AI will research, there is no value in the trading opportunity.

I understand the reluctance to go this route but I have to say that in SGOTM03, Klarius kept telling me that it would be fine and he was right every time. I was beside myself because I wanted to research the tech we needed but we got it each time before we could have self-researched it by coming up with something the AI seldom goes after.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if we can find a research path that gives us a monopoly on a tech, we *should* be able to get a some two-fers or three-fers early on.

We start with Masonry and Bronze. What if we start researching IW with an eye towards trading for Ceremonial Burial or The Wheel with whatever else we can get, and then start up the bottom of the tech tree. Of course, it depends who is around us.

I would like to find the iron and horses as well and can't see building Spears if we can upgrade Warriors to Swords. Cats I'm needing some more convincing on. :crazyeye:

There are so many competing requirements for this one, it seems we need everything, in quantity, right now. There must be a way we can prioritize or set up phases that we can use. For example:

1. Phase 1. Initially we need to expand and build an army. We need to find Iron and Horses, so we need IW and The Wheel. (How we get them is another issue) Scouting, other than our immediate surroundings, is not a priority.

2. Phase 2. First contact and war begins. Expansion must continue and units need to be pumped out. Need to keep research going on techs the AI doesn't usually go after (bottom of the tree). We fight an active defense to wear down the AI if possible until we are strong enough to take the offensive.

Beyond that, I am unsure. Sorry, my $0.02 turned into a pound!! :blush:

AlanH

May 15, 2005, 01:19 PM

Also, in vanilla, any AI ship you hit with a catapult goes all the way home. :D
I've seen the AI attack with a red lined unit. Keep talking ;)

Gyathaar

May 15, 2005, 01:24 PM

if some of you havent tried AWE (or higher) games yet, you really should give it a test.. so you know the strats better :)

Tomoyo

May 15, 2005, 01:31 PM

I've seen the AI attack with a red lined unit. Keep talking ;)So have I in vanilla. But I bet you that was either a land unit or a war ship. ;)

Gyathaar

May 15, 2005, 01:40 PM

I've seen the AI attack with a red lined unit. Keep talking ;)

I have seen that too.. but only when high chance of winning.. like a redlined sword vs an unfortifieds regular warrior

DJMGator13

May 15, 2005, 05:24 PM

On page 2 before I can even check in. Good work. I think the spam award is in the bag already. ;)

I've been over at my grandmothers this weekend working on her computer and attempting to catch a few fish. I'm back but haven't read the thread yet.

leif erikson

May 15, 2005, 06:21 PM

@Gyathaar - As you suggested, I have tried several random games, small map, playing AWD rules and it is an interesitng experience! ;)

The first thing I learned is try not to make contact until you have 3 or 4 cities. In my first try my capital was 5 squares from the Zulu capital and I met their Scout within 10 turns. I got crushed and it was humbling! :cry:

In another I managed to survive through the QSC period with 6 cities (2 cows in the starting radius of the capital). Didn't meet Zulu until around turn 30 and then held them at bay. It got tougher and tougher as the Impi and then Horsemen started showing up. I researched IW at min and had plenty of cash when I met them but was 2 gold pieces short of buying The Wheel. Once I got IW, no iron to be found. I wouldn't have lasted too much longer as the Horsemen were starting to come in great quantity. I had built all warriors and no spears, but I don't think spears would have done too much good. Swords would have been nice.

imho, much will depend upon the resources available to us and whether we select the right tech or not. I am now all for IW as our first tech and hope we have iron available, we'll need it. It is interesting that all my random games had me closest ot the Zulu, who always seem to have The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial.

TheNemesis666

May 16, 2005, 01:42 AM

I can see a few, if not several spears being useful until we hook up iron, in my test games the third onwards saw me building a spear as my first build while i sat there very quietly hoping nobody would drop by, then i'd start on archers. (couldn't rely on having iron on a random map)
Cats i don't know if i can muster a decent argument, I don't normally use them. I didn't really record anything from my trial games but i felt in the few that lasted a while the one with cats reduced my casualties. I'm not sure if the fewer casualties equaled the amount of shields I spent building the cats. So those shields may have been better invested in actual units.
I also couldn't find a way of building the G.Lib, i've been playing around with my starts but most of the time the ai gets it before i have lit. So unless we dedicate our research path to literature I don't know if we'll be able to build it.
My vote currently rests with IW first.
(but this is just my AU$0.02 and not worth as much as yours :) )

AlanH

May 16, 2005, 03:14 AM

(but this is just my AU$0.02 and not worth as much as yours :) )
It's certainly worth as much as mine, and since I haven't had time to play any test games, probably considerably more. :D

I'll go with IW as the first tech, and the arguments concerning Monarchy seem sound. I still don't 'get' the case for cats, I'd rather kill attackers than send them home wounded to recover and come back again. But if everyone wants to build them I'll go with the flow.

TheNemesis666

May 16, 2005, 03:40 AM

I wasn't so much bombarding to send the enemy home, just to swing the odds slightly in my favour before attacking them. I've never been a cat fan but thought i should check them out given the amount of units i was having to fend off in previous test games. I'm still not sold on them myself, I'm reluctant to invest the shields and upkeep when they could be a sword. (swords are a little more shields but the upkeeps the same)
Tomoyo, what are your thoughts on cat's? I noticed your name come up a few times in the searches i did for AWD doc's. (edit: and how the **** do i build the G.Lib in AWD it's killing me :) )

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 06:03 AM

Saves are posted BTW.

@Nemesis - I think the only way to get the GL is by dedicating the second city to a pre-build or by cashing in a leader. I found I couldn't afford to dedicate a city's production to a wonder and expect to live. :eek: :lol: :lol:

In one of the test games I found myself on an islnd, alone. I hope this will not be the case for us. By the time I figured out I was alone and got Map Making, the other civs were in the Middle Ages and I had just gotten HBR! It would be nice to get at least one civ to fight mid-ancient age.

An interesting decision in this game was whether to trade for techs or contacts. I chose techs, only because I was hoping to get some time between contacts. I also found trying to buy techs to be very expensive on first contact. If we can't research a tech an beat some AI to it early to trade, we'll be in big trouble.

I never got Cats in any of my test games because I tried to focus on getting IW, The Wheel, HBR and up the bottom of the tech tree. Getting hold of Alphabet early was pretty tough because it is worth so much.

@Nemesis - How did you research, at min or max and what trading opportunities did you find?

EDIT - Just checked the save and our opponents are:
India
Zulu
Arabs
Persia
Vikings
America
Let's hope we're not too close to Persia or Zululand with their early UU's.

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 07:30 AM

Don't forget the map is arch, so we are most likely isolated. It would be a good way to make sure all the teams get into the game before having to declare their first war. Hopefully we can find a nice island where 2 AI have run out of room and are battling each other. This could allow us to poach some cities.

I think I prefer archers over cats. Archers still get the defensive shot and we could use them to take out some redlined units. If we are isolated I'm not sure we will need many spears. Swords have the same defense and usually get selected to defend by the computer when our stack is attacked.

We will need horses. Their ability to retreat and to establish Kill Zones will be imperative to winning.

I agree on the research discusion about staying with the monoploy techs for trading opportunities. Hopefully if we meet the other civs over a longer time period we can trade for most of the AA techs.

I was on Team akots for SGOTM2 and we played it as an AW, although it was offically a Monarch level game. akots posted some of the standard AW rules which I think we should use as a guideline. Here is a link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1841027&postcount=11) to akots post and he references Cartouche Bee's SG game.

Cities should be RCP3/6/9. This allows us to move units between cities in a single turn, barring rivers. So we also need to watch the rivers so that units coming from interior cities can reach the outer cities in 1 turn, ie build on the other side of the river so the move across the river puts us in the city.

Other than that I would say lets read up on some of the other AWE+ games and continue our gameplanning before rushing into the game. We may want to make a few opening moves and a brief exploration of our starting area, but we're in no rush to play the first 20 turns.

EDIT: One of the biggest things for an AW game is to self build no Wonders. Use Leaders for Great and Small Wonders, including the FP. All shields need to go into units. Core cities get barracks and our settler pumps get granaries, other than that no infrastructure.

EDIT #2:
akots next post contained a few more tips. The whole thread is linked in my sig (see SGOTM2). Here is what akots advised:

The above rules summarized by Cartouche Bee should be followed strictly.

I would also like to add some general considerations:

1) No need to explore with the first warrior too early and too far. If we meet our rivals too soon, we can get whole bunch of trouble. They would rush at us and would delay our early expansion.

2) Before building anything (settler), we need at least 3 warriors (may be 1 spearman) in our first city. One warrior can do some scouting in the surrounding area (not going too far) and two other units stay in the city and protect our worker. We would also need a unit to protect our settler. It can be warrior but better be spearman. All settlers better be protected as well as most workers on tiles close to our cultural borders.

3) (I eliminated since it doesn't apply here)

AlanH

May 16, 2005, 09:00 AM

I think M-B has used the same baseline for this game as for GOTM43, and there is no defensive shot for archers in that game. But I still prefer active defence to sitting in our cities and waiting to be attacked. I don't think we had a single city under attack in the early stages of SGOTM 3.

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 09:32 AM

I thought about that (archer shot) after posting but I wasn't sure. I was running around with about a dozen cats in GOTM42 (before I stopped playing it) and my cats we're pretty much useless. Not sure if attacking against the Great Walls lowered their hit rate but I was lucky to get 2 hits with that stack.

It's a slow day at work so I've been reading Cartouche Bee's SG up through page 5 so far and it is a good read. It was an AWE game though.

Gyathaar

May 16, 2005, 10:06 AM

cats suck at hitting fortified units in towns.. but they hit unfortified units on flat land well... their ability to hurt units means other units can kill units with less losses.. and we get promotions and military leaders faster

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 10:22 AM

Here's some more early game wisdom from Cartouche Bee, reviewing thier game progess. It's in the 2nd post on the page (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52417&page=6&pp=20).

CB favors the cats, as Gyathaar has stated they are good against unfortified troops.

AlanH

May 16, 2005, 10:25 AM

How many cats do you tend to build, Gyathaar? Do you put them in towns or in stacks at choke points and kill zones? I still shudder at the thought of letting the AI attack my towns. The only times it happens in my normal games is when I'm in danger of defeat. I've never deliberately allowed or encouraged it.

Gyathaar

May 16, 2005, 10:37 AM

as I said.. I havent played AW in a long time, so hard for me to give a number of cats..
for normal games on sid I usually skip cats and go for trebs.. but usually build 20-30 of those in normal non aw games.. which are later upgraded to cannon and artillery

Personally I dont let AIs attack my towns either except as last option.. I left the AIs walk past my heavilly fortified outer towns and into my internal lands towards lightly fortified inner cities.. as they are walking on flat land here, bombard them and kill them off before they can reach cities.

one more thing to know about cats.. when artillery units are stacked with defensive units, the AIs will calculate odds for winning as if the artillery unit till take off a hp from them before attacking... so a regular sword will check odds for winning as if it was a conscript.. if the odds for winning is too low.. they will bypass this stack and go for easier targets instead (this goes for all units with defensive bombard)

Gyathaar

May 16, 2005, 10:43 AM

However.. when in a AW game.. there is a good part about letting AIs attack your cities...
When your units is attacked you get points vs war wearness.. in despotism and monarchy we wont care about this (and since we declare on the AIs, we dont have war happiness to loose either)

Now.. there is a bug in civ3 (atleast in conquests.. not sure if in vanilla or not).. that whenever an AI attacks a player and the player gets WW points, the AI gets the points too.. (between AIs it works like it should)

This means that republic and democracy will work abolutely dreadful for AIs.. and in most cases they will change to them whenever they get them even if they are at war.

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 12:11 PM

@Gyathaar - The purpose of the cats then is to augment your defense by softening up attackers in kill zones. Do you set them up in cities the AI will pass as too heavily defended or on hills along a route the AI follows?

In SGOTM03 there was a valley through which the AI insisted on passing and we decimated them there using Horsemen, Swords and Cats. Can we set up a situation similar to this where we leave some bait the AI will bite for and then kill them as they go for it? :mischief:

The question for me is how we are going to work the tech tree in order to get to the techs we need to make all this happen? We need IW, The Wheel, HBR and Mathematics for the military we need. Then we need Literature if we want to rush The Great Library with a leader, although I am still for capuring it, and then we also need to get to Monarchy when we have enough larger cities to get out of Despotism.

It is an interesting problem that requires some organization and, I think, a little luck on when we meet other civs.

BTW - There are 3 expansionist civs out of the 6 and those scout can cover a lot of ground and pop a lot of huts for tech.

EDIT - Good reading, thanks Gator! :goodjob:

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 12:41 PM

As the game unfolds, we may want to hold off on capturing the Great Library until we can get close to siphs, but we need to play that by ear. Or conversely if we can capture it early learn some techs (hopefully not Education) then let the city be recaptured so that we can capture it again later in the game.

It will probably have too short a lifespan to hand build and we may not want to use a leader on it (assuming we have one available).

We ended SGOTM2 with a 1040AD (IIRC) dom win with knights and we waited to research Astronomy to allow safe sea travel, but this game is arch map so we are going to need to research mapm to be able to leave our starting island, provided we are alone.

EDIT: Don't forget that early in the game we'll have better unit support in despot than in Monarchy, and as we just learned from the last game we could possibly even "whip" up a quick army as a despot.

Tomoyo

May 16, 2005, 01:33 PM

The cats are to (hopefully) redline every unit we attack in our kill zones. Cats are also awesome for stacking the odds of naval units in your favour. Of course, you need at least five or so cats to be effective.

One other interesting use for catapults is that they allow you to use a poor man's "stealth attack". If you were faced with a spear/longbow pair, bombarding the spear down to one hp will allow you to only need one attacker to take care of the offensive threat instead of two. Sounds small, but it helps a lot.

AlanH

May 16, 2005, 02:18 PM

I'm going to suggest we get started. Our discussions on cats can continue - it'll be a while before we have to make the Maths decision, but meanwhile it sounds like I'm going to learn to love cats :D.

Gyathaar took the lead set last time. Does anyone want to jump up and start us off? If not, how about giving Tomoyo the first set this time?

Tomoyo
leif erikson
Gyathaar
Gator
Nemesis
AlanH

Xteam has been pretty good at turn set progress, but here's a gratuitous reminder:

After the first set we play 10 turns each until we decide otherwise.
24 hours from the post saying you're UP to post GOT IT or to ask for an extension or a skip. Please don't keep us in suspense.
72 hours from the post saying you're UP to upload the next save and post your log.

More SG etiquette is posted in bad-max's reference thread and elsewhere in the forums. The main point is - if in doubt - ask!

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 04:38 PM

I think having Tomoyo start is an excellent idea! :goodjob: Good luck and keep your head down. :scan:

My being second is fine. I would like a little more discussion on where we want to go with the tech tree. While it will probably depend more on what is available when we meet another civ, I would like to have some idea of what direction we, as a team, would like to go on this and what techs we want on our "wish list". (I know, all of the AA techs) :lol: :lol: :lol:

In my test games, I think the restriction on being able to barter techs is the chokepoint and I would feel more comfortable knowing at least what were thinking of in the grand scheme. I would hate to screw it up from the beginning! :blush: :rolleyes: :p

AlanH

May 16, 2005, 05:29 PM

I think we are all in agreement that Iron working seems a good first project. Even if we research it flat out we probably won't get it before 3000 BC, and I doubt if we'll have traded for it by then either. It's a bit pointless to argue now about whether to work on the wheel, for example, if our first contact trades it to us. So I suggest we discuss the next project in 3000 BC, when we may have different options and/or priorities.

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 05:47 PM

Sounds good, roster looks fine.

Keep that turtle head in tight until we get a few warriors in the fold.

TheNemesis666

May 16, 2005, 05:49 PM

Roster looks fine. I may take advantage of the "if in doubt - ask!" clause more than once, especially early on when the difference between surviving and being crushed is only slight.

EDIT: @Leif I went max for IW where it would help. (ie: if max was 40 turns i'd run min till i had another road or more pop and check) After that i'd research wheel at min. I didn't find many trading opportunities except with the first expansionist scout that would drop by, and only if he was early. And the trading opportunities didn't get much better if i strived for better research. (there was stuff to buy, but the ai had all the techs i knew)
I never did try going for monarchy straight out to see what trading opportunities arose, as games without iron or horse resource just didn't last. So I viewed IW and/or HBR techs as required for survival, coupled with a bit of luck to have the resource in reach.

Tomoyo

May 16, 2005, 08:15 PM

4000BC (0): Found Sogut on the spot. Worker NE. Start Iron Working at max and hope we can grow enough to get it below 40 turns.

Start warrior.

3950BC (1): Worker start irrigating.

3850BC (3): Worker finishes irrigation, starts road.

IT: Sogut: Warrior --> Barracks

3750BC (5): Worker finishes road, goes NW.

3700BC (6): Worker irrigates.

3600BC (8): Worker finishes irrigation, starts road. Raise luxury lax.

3550BC (9): An Indian warrior pops out from across the strait. :cringe:

I trade Masonry and Bronze Working for Alphabet and 10 gold. Sorry guys that wanted Ceremonial Burial... :(

And declare war.

3500BC (10): Worker finishes road, worker S-SE.

3450BC (11): Worker starting mining.

3400BC (12): ...

IT: Sogut: Barracks --> Spearman

3350BC (13): Raise lux tax a bit more.

3300BC (14): Worker finishes mine, starts road.

3250BC (15): Our warrior bumps into a barb.

IT: Sogut: Spearman --> Spearman

3200BC (16): Worker finishes road, goes S.

3150BC (17): Argh! Barbs! Worker goes back towards the city.

IT: Barb attacks our warrior on a mountain, loses.

3100BC (18): A Zulu warrior pops from the north. Trade Alphabet for CB and Pottery. Declare war.

IT: Kill a barb, upgrade our palace.

3050BC (19): ...

Sogut: Spearman --> Spearman

3000BC (20): Get ready to irrigate the last sheep.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Xteam_3000BC.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC3000_01.SAV)

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 08:19 PM

It's a bit pointless to argue now about whether to work on the wheel, for example, if our first contact trades it to us. So I suggest we discuss the next project in 3000 BC, when we may have different options and/or priorities.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't really worried about what to research next but rather what to do if I found myself with a contact. My experience in test games is that the AI will have an assortment of techs and I'm trying to get a feel for what is most important to try and obtain. Reading Nemesis' post, it sounds like we should try for the military techs first, The Wheel or Warrior Code. If we think we're on an island by ourselves, we should probably look towards Alphabet and up towards Map Making.

Just trying to see what other think about this as in my test game I found that I was meeting the AI around turn 25 to 30, unless I was alone on an island. Then I didn't meet them until turn 80. :eek:

EDIT - Looks like this doesn't matter, Tomoyo took care of everything for me! :goodjob:

And I've got it. :eek:
How many Spears do we want to build? :blush:

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 09:24 PM

Tomoyo was the Zulu warrior on our side or across the straight again?

@leif - we'll want a few spears to act as escorts for our settlers based on the barbs. Looks like we have a warrior and 3 spears with a 4th due in 2 turns. With 20 turns to go on research I think I'd change to a granary then squeeze out a settler. This is based off the picture, I did not look at the save.

I'd push the FOW to our south a little but I wouldn't do too much more exploration. We're already at war with 2 and any one else we meet from the north will probably already know our 2 current enemies.

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 09:24 PM

Good work Tomoyo!! :goodjob:
And I do like your choices of trades. :thumbsup:

After the Spear pops, I would like to build a settler and settle city site number 1 on the map below.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM07_3000BC_City_Sites.jpg

Build for city 2 would be Barracks. I think we should begin pumping out some Vet Warriors from Sogut before we start a granary, or do we want one?

Wonder how long, or if, those Zulu Impi's and Indian Archers will take to get around that body of water to our north? I assume from Tomoyo's turn log that that is where they were seen.

EDIT - Crossed with Gator. There is one warrior and 2 spears with another due in 2 turns. Do you want to build a Granary before the settler? Wouldn't it be better to get a city started and get a Barracks built to produce more military?

DJMGator13

May 16, 2005, 09:30 PM

crossed with leif

I still think I'd go for the granary now, remember Alan's mantra "Food is Power". The granary now speeds up the 2nd and 3rd settler. You could let the 4th spear finish first, but if we are only dealing with barbs on our side I'd skip it.

Let's see what the others think. As we've seen the early turns are key for winning the game.

leif erikson

May 16, 2005, 09:36 PM

Let's see what the others think. As we've seen the early turns are key for winning the game.
Yes, I agree. I don't plan to play until tomorrow evening. That will give Nemesis a chance to see it and comment as well.

There are only 2 Spears, not 3, and the third will pop in 2 turns. While food is power, we are in a war with 2 civs that may be able to come around the sea and we will need something to fight with. Based upon my test games, a couple of spears isn't going to even slow them down! :eek:

TheNemesis666

May 16, 2005, 09:56 PM

Hi, i've got the day off today. I agree with the whole "food is power" thing and would rarely consider building a settler before i have a granary. But in a normal game (non-AW) I also wouldn't be at war with 2 civs. A second city, once up and running will give us a continually stream of military units. The ai units could start showing up in about 10 turns and once they do they aren't going to stop.
But building the settler first and getting a 2nd city earlier will mean we get city 3, 4 and all the others later. (that's right isn't it? granary first means city 2 is later but subseqent cities are earlier?)

Currently we're looking at 6-7 turns to build granary after the spear finishes and then about 3 turns for the settler. 10 turns without building any more military.
But a second city will take 15-20 turns (um, that's a very rough guess) to build a barracks before it can start helping with the war effort.

*** I don't know and can't decide either way, was about to cancel this post but decided i'd put it in for discussion. Let me think some more. ***

EDIT: am i right in thinking that by working the BG our second city could build half a barracks in 10 turns then whip the second half? This was something i'd started doing in my test AWDs but only in the later few so can't really say if it made much of a difference. It only saves you 5-7 turns depending on the terrain around the city and knocks you back 10 turns as far a growth is concerned. This still doesn't help much with the settler or granary first question.

EDIT2: I've got the day off sick, so I can't say how effective my brain is. (not very if this rambling post is anything to go by)

EDIT3: just making some of my statements make sense.

Gyathaar

May 17, 2005, 02:04 AM

Build a settler after the spear.. we are not in a rush to set up a settler factory.. we need a military factory set up before we can safely start expanding.. so I would go for settler -> granary.

The granary should be switched to military if we come under attack or another settler if we need another town to grab an iron nearby.

the 2nd town should get rax and then start pouring out spears imo. We will need spears to protect all our new cities, plus we need them to cover our workers.

Somewhere we need to get out another worker or 2 aswell.

Tomoyo

May 17, 2005, 05:11 AM

Both AIs were on the other side of the strait, we're just dealing with barbs - for now.

leif erikson

May 17, 2005, 06:55 AM

the 2nd town should get rax and then start pouring out spears imo. We will need spears to protect all our new cities, plus we need them to cover our workers.

How much of a gambler are you? Will Iron be within our reach? I suppose we will know soon enough to stop Spear production and start Warriors for upgrade to Swords while we acquire the Iron.

I'd bet the Iron isn't too far off and we probably only need a couple of Spears to go with the Settler to claim it. :mischief:

DJMGator13

May 17, 2005, 07:15 AM

There are only 2 Spears, not 3, and the third will pop in 2 turns. While food is power, we are in a war with 2 civs that may be able to come around the sea and we will need something to fight with. Based upon my test games, a couple of spears isn't going to even slow them down! :eek:

That's what I get for posting when I should have been in bed sleeping. :)

I agree on letting the current spear finish. That will also put Sogut 1 turn from being size 5 so a settler after that than granary. If we build the second city at site 1 then the forest chop would probably go to that city instead of to Sogut. So the granary in front of settler would gain the chop, but I'm not sure if that is enough reason for it to be first, without knowing the spt & fpt situation. I'm at work and haven't looked at the save yet. BTW what do the lamb/sheep tiles generate?

We also should make a few archers to handle the barbs and promo up to elite status, since they will be cheaper/quicker to build than swords. Elite archers do well against 1 to 2 hp units. But those will come later, next short term goal is settler and granary.

AlanH

May 17, 2005, 07:34 AM

Good start Tomoyo. :thumbsup:

How much of a gambler are you? Do we feel lucky today?

I have a hunch that we may be alone on an island, and secure until Map Making. I think M-B might had given us that breathing space. I can see a sliver of coast to the south west, and I suspect there's no connection from our territory to the land in the north. If this is the case then we should take advantage of the honeymoon period and focus on fast expansion to grab the island. We also need to decide if we want early or late contacts with any other civs on neighbouring islands. My guess is we need to contact them early, as we may have nothing to trade if we leave it too long.

But all of the above could be suicide if we are connected to the others.

Tomoyo - just played 3000 BC
leif erikson UP
Gyathaar
Gator
Nemesis
AlanH

DJMGator13

May 17, 2005, 08:18 AM

I did some investigating using the GOTM reference threads (thanks Alan :goodjob: ) since I'm at work.

If we are alone on this island I think we should change the build to a granary immediately and then go chop the forest if needed to speed it up. With 3 irrigated sheep tiles and 2 mined BGs we have a 4 turn settler/warrior factory.

Center...........2/1
3 iSheep........9/6 (same as a plain cow, so 3/2 each tile)
2 mBGs..........4/4

Totals..........15/11

We really only need 1 of the BGs for this to work since we are at 11spt, so we could work the regular grass instead.

DJMGator13

May 17, 2005, 11:49 AM

If anyone is still looking for some reading here is a link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89439&page=1&pp=20) to Arathorn's AWS game.

They rolled to a very impressive AWE victory in that other SG.

leif erikson

May 17, 2005, 11:54 AM

Do we feel lucky today?
Was it five shots or six? You know, in all this commotion, I've lost count myself! :rolleyes:

Well, you have thrown down the gauntlet! :p Do we play it as if we're on the island, alone, or as though it is connected? My thoughts have been that it is connected but, I've been known to be wrong. This is an interesting dilema... :)

I think I agree with Gyathaar, that military is a greater priority than fast expansion at this point. However, I could be swayed by a good argument. The problem is that if we build a Granary and we are wrong, it may cost us the game. :cry: If we are right that we are on an island, it results in the pretty good sized payoff of faster growth and development, and ultimately, more military units. :thumbsup:

I'm glad I have a few more hours to think about it... :crazyeye: I would feel very guilty if I left Gyathaar to fight one of the AI civs, or both of them, with only 2 Spears!! :suicide:

leif erikson

May 17, 2005, 07:49 PM

First, The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC2550_01.SAV)

I think Alan may be correct and we are on an island. A search to the south shows mostly Jungle, but I didn't explore to find out how deep it is. I sent the Warrior east and found the Zulu city borders across a straight of water.

Of course, I did not build the Granary straight away but built a settler and we have added the town of Iznik.

The Map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM07_XMEN_2550_BC.png

The turn log:
Turn 20 – 3000 BC – Pre-flight.
Checking CivAssist2, we have accumulated 81 beakers in 20 turns and still need 159 to finish, so there is no way we can research faster than 40 turns, so I change the research slider to 10% to build some gold.
We’ll let the Spear finish, although it makes me grimace! :cringe:
Press enter.

IBT
The Barb Warrior impales himself on our Vet Spear in Sogut and our Spear promotes. :D

Turn 21 – 2950 BC
Warrior SE, sees the Barb Camp on a mountain, of course.
Worker roads.
Spear fortifies.

IBT
Sogut Spear => Settler.

Turn 22 – 2900 BC
Spear fortifies in Sogut.
Warrior E towards Barb Camp.
Reduce Lux slider to 10%.

IBT

Turn 23 – 2850 BC
Worker irrigates.
Warrior attacks a Barb Camp to the east and defeats him, losing 1 HP and gaining 25 Gold. Reveals a GH, but I’m leaving it alone. Lots of jungle to our south and some Spices.
Sogut grows to size 5, lux slider to 20%.

IBT
:sleep:

Turn 24 – 2800 BC
Warrior fortifies to heal.

IBT
Sogut Settler => Granary.

Turn 25 – 2750 BC
Wake a Vet Spear and move Settler and Spear S.
Worker NW along with covering Spear.
Warrior NE.
Change Lux Slider to 10%.
Granary in 9 turns.

IBT
:sleep:

Turn 26 – 2710 BC
Worker roads.
Settler and Vet Spear south.
Spear fortifies with Worker.
Warrior NE.

IBT
A Barb Warrior moves next to our Settler.

Turn 27 – 2670 BC
Settler founds the town of Iznik, production to Barracks, 14 turns.
Spear fortifies in Iznik.
Warrior E.

IBT
Barb Warrior attacks our Spear in Iznik and dies, but it took a while as we redlined! :eek: :twitch:

Turn 28 – 2630 BC
Worker and Spear west to BG.
Warrior N.
MM Sogut for food, no effect on Granary completion.
Increase Lux Slider to 30%.
CA2 informs us that India and Zululand now have both Iron Working and The Wheel. I’m sure that any civ that knows them have them as well.

IBT
:sleep:

Turn 29 – 2590 BC
Worker roads.
Spear fortifies.
Warrior NE, looks like Zulu will take a while to get to us, should have built the Granary I guess.

IBT
We are informed that the Indians are building The Pyramids.

Turn 30 – 2550 BC
Warrior SW.

After Action Report
Not too much action! There is a Barb Camp somewhere to the west as one Barb Warrior visited, showing up on the Olive Hill to the SW of Iznik. Our Warrior has revealed Jungle to our south and a watery canal to the east that will keep the Zulu at bay, unless they find a way around to the south.

Granary in Sogut is due in 3 turns, Barracks in Iznik due in 11 turns. Thought about chopping but decided to get a road built between Sogut and Iznik so that there was no river in the way and then decided to road and mine the BG.

Good luck Gyathaar. :salute:

DJMGator13

May 17, 2005, 08:20 PM

Looks good. Don't worry about the granary issue.

I've read where if the GH is in the first 9 tiles of a city it will not pop barbs, but if it is poped on a cultural expansion it can pop barbs. So I'd leave all close GHs for cities. Might get lucky and actually get a tech from one.

Can we adjust the timing of growth and granary so that it will be full on completion? Although with all 3 sheeps irrigated we'll grow in 2 turns anyway.

Looks like we need to crank out settlers and fill up our island before we start getting visited by others.

leif erikson

May 17, 2005, 09:03 PM

Nice, new, Gold Laurel wearing Avatar Gator! :thumbsup:

I think you're right, time to pump some settlers and fill in around Sogut in a nice Ottoman half moon crescent. ;)

That Jungle to the south doesn't look too inviting but we should prolly try to expose the fog near the hills and mountains to show us any Iron that may be lying about.

The next problem will be getting to Map Making to allow the construction of galleys to transport our invading armies. Once the AI get Writing, they may trade our contact. What I really hope for is some AI wars. :spank:

TheNemesis666

May 18, 2005, 12:56 AM

I missed a "nice start Tomoyo" in my post yesterday, sorry mate, my brain was far from functioning normally.

And nice stuff Leif, I think the second city was the right play, even if we are on an island it will kick our military production off much sooner. We still don't know for sure that we are isolated, it may just be a long walk around for the zulu and indians. There is also room for an ai to our south but we probably would have seen them by now. If there is land access to the ai over the water then our military is very low, we should probably get at least 1 more spear to escort our settler and maybe another after the settler in case we aren't isolated. After that iznik should be up and running and can take over military production.

With 3 irrigated sheep we'll grow in 4 turns without a granary, should we maybe move a citizen off one of the sheep and onto a forrest? (for growth in 4 and granary in 3) We can move from the BG to a forest for 3 and 3 but I think growth will happen before produciton, is this right?
If we do move off the sheep, give it to iznik for the 3 turns to speed it along.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 01:49 AM

Got it.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 03:25 AM

2550BC, turn 0:

I set Sogut to work mined BG and roaded plains, and give the lambs tile to Iznik so that Sogut will complete granary in 3 and grow in 4.
This allows me to drop lux to 20% aswell, so now we make 7gpt

I decide to bet on that we are alone, and pump pump out more towns asap.

If we are alone, and dont expand like we are.. we will loose out to other teams

2510BC, turn 1:
worker starts mine

2470BC, turn 2:
Barb warrior moves into view sw of Iznik

IBT:
Barb moves next to Iznik

Sogut: completes Granary

2430BC, turn 3:
Time to work out Sogut buildorder..
I see immediately that it is a 4 turns warrior/settler combo factory from size 4.5 to 6.5

It is already right size to start, so I set it to build warrior

warrior keeps going south, and the water canal is still there.. can see a pink border, but no contact

IBT:
barb suicide on spear in Iznik.. spear promotes to elite

Sogut: warrior -> settler

2390BC, turn 4:
ah.. crap.. forgot you get waste in the capital in vanilla.. but 4 turns warrior/settler still works out
worker/spear moves to BG tile south of Iznik

IBT:
Zulu start colossus

2350BC, turn 5:
India has built a city north of us
No contact with pink civ yet
worker stats road, spear fortifies

2310BC, turn 6:
move Sogut citizen off forest and onto Oysters.
Raise lux to 30%

IBT:
Sogut: settler -> warrior

Zulus start Oracle

2270BC, turn 7:

Where to send settler... I decide to send it next to plains wheat and desert goats in RCP 6.. it seems the best city site.. and it can start building dearly needed workers

send settler there with warrior escort

lux to 20%

IBT:
Sogut: warrior -> settler

2230BC, turn 8:

moving up on incense hill, I see that the planned city site is next to a barb camp.. so I send the spear from worker along with the settler too

SE is a small peninsula.. no land crossing.. and I spot a light green border.. no contact with green or pink civs

2190BC, turn 9:
settler with escorts move into position.

IBT:
barb dies to spear

2150BC, turn 10:
I found Uskudar and disperse the barb camp
Uskudar -> worker

lux to 30% (citizen in sogut to ousters)

I send the worker to the incense hill so it can both connect lux and connect Uskudar

We have Iron in the mountain west of us, and in the hills to the east.

We can research maths or writing in 30 turns at 70% sci, or wheel in 12 or warrior code in 10.. I would go for maths or writing

Sogut is a 4 turn warrior/settler factory:

size 4 + 5 food: start warrior
work all 3 lambs and one mined BG

on growth: it either picks up the 2nd mined BG or forest (will use BG unless you let another city use that)
warrior is completed

size 5: start settler
work all 3 lambs and both mined BG

size 5 + 5 food:
work all 3 lambs and both mined BG

on growth: it picks up a forest..

size 6:
work all 3 lambs, both mined BG and the oyster

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/XT7_2150BC.JPG

AlanH

May 18, 2005, 04:03 AM

I'm not keeping up :eek:

Well done guys, looks like my hunch paid off. Clint had fired all six. Our score line is showing the now-characteristic Xteam "slow burn" effect ;)

Tomoyo - played 3000 BC
leif erikson - played 2550 BC
Gyathaar - played 2150 BC
Gator UP
Nemesis - on deck
AlanH

leif erikson

May 18, 2005, 05:34 AM

NIce work Gyathaar! :goodjob: Looks like we're off and running.

The pink border is prolly Arabia and the purple Vikings?

Well done guys, looks like my hunch paid off. Clint had fired all six. Our score line is showing the now-characteristic Xteam "slow burn" effect ;)
You have to remember the other famous quote from that series of films. "A man has to know his limitations"! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think the score graph is interesting as all the Vanilla/PTW scores are lower than C3C. I wonder what those teams are doing? Must be in the the way the score is kept between versions.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 05:51 AM

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 05:55 AM

TheNemesis666

May 18, 2005, 05:57 AM

EDIT1: Crossposted with about half the team. :)
(actually it was just gyathaar, i thought we were on the previous page when i started posting)

Good stuff Gyathaar, it now looks like it's a fairly safe bet that we're alone, well played.
I notice the ai we've met don't have writing yet, this is good news as it means they still have a way to go before map making, plenty of time for us to make a stab at filling our island.
i'm not seeing a green border, where are they? (EDIT1: i see it now you've pointed it out)

How good is civassist2!!! Thanks for putting me onto it.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 06:02 AM

i'm not seeing a green border, where are they?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/XT7_2150BC_2.JPG

TheNemesis666

May 18, 2005, 06:12 AM

In my last post the deity factor had slipped my mind, we probably don't have that long before the ai have writing and then map making. On deity that must be what, 3 turns. :)

DJMGator13

May 18, 2005, 06:18 AM

Looking good. I'll play tonight. I'm up in 2 other SGs but they are both slow moving ones, Gator01 & I'm taking my first turns in TDG.

We should wait to hookup the iron until we get closer to actual AI warfare. Or atleast until we have filled in our island so that the settler/warrior factory can run at top speed.

@Gyathaar, I always forget about corruption in the capital. So we do need the 11spt plan to generate the 10.

EDIT:

Nice, new, Gold Laurel wearing Avatar Gator!

Thanks goes to Mistfit for the addition. Did you notice the Spoon? That was my first award. I think I need him to put a "3" on the spoon and a "6" on the laurel.

leif erikson

May 18, 2005, 06:58 AM

the purple border is india.. there is a green border far down in se end.. below the pink one

the difficulty modifier for deity is 6 in vanilla/ptw and 7 in C3C.. so with same territory/happiness the conquest scores will be 16.7% higher than the classic ones
Got up before I woke up this morning, green could be Persia. :blush: In C3C, is the modifier 8 for Sid? Have to try one of those one of these days. :crazyeye:

Played around with CivAssit II this morning as well and made up a proposed city site map I'll attach. Please don't be bashful about commenting on it. :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DJMGator13

May 18, 2005, 07:21 AM

I have trouble seeing pictures at work. They are in the post just way too dark for me to see anything other than the lighted area. You should start with maximizing the river location for each ring and then fill in the rest of the cities after that. Since we don't know which direction we'll be attacked from it's hard to place cities to utilize the river for defense purposes but atleast we can take advantage of the fresh water when possible.

If we can get a second settler factory going (even a 6 turn one) we should be able to claim this island before we have too many visitors. I haven't looked at the area carefully enough to see if there is a potential second factory site but I'll do that tonight (unless someone does it first ;) ).

WillowBrook

May 18, 2005, 08:06 AM

Wow - I miss about 3 days, and 3 turnsets have been played! (This isn't SGOTM6 anymore...) Looks like you made a good gamble on being on a island - now the challenge is to fill it with military-producing towns before the AI get there.

Have fun!

leif erikson

May 18, 2005, 12:20 PM

If we can get a second settler factory going (even a 6 turn one) we should be able to claim this island before we have too many visitors. I haven't looked at the area carefully enough to see if there is a potential second factory site but I'll do that tonight (unless someone does it first ;) ).
I think you have that potential in Uskudar. It has a FP Wheat (4/0/1), Desert Goats (2/2/0), Hills with Olives (2/1/1), Hills with Incense (1/1/1), Plains (1/1/1) and Forest (1/2/0). There is also a Mountain with Goats (2/2/0) within the cultural expansion.

Of course, we have to improve the tiles with a worker and there is plenty of food. The question will be how much the corruption effects the shield count, right now CA2 reads 37% corruption.

Sorry about the pictures. If we had more military to light up the terrain, it would be easier to read the photos. :mischief: Is your eye still bothering you? ;)

EDIT - Hi Willow, how is it going? :wavey:

DJMGator13

May 18, 2005, 12:59 PM

I'll check out Uskudar, it is affected by the distance corruption so I don't think it will get any worse as we fill in RCP3 cities. If the 37% corruption number is correct than it would take 8 shields to generate 6 useable shields to get to a 5 turn factory there. If the 37% is useable shields then it's ugly. I need to see what the goats generate (f/s), plus there will be alot of improvements to get it going. We may be better running that city as the worker pump and look for a better RCP3 site.

Temporarily, Sogut will provide most of our military while we get a core established. Should we put a warrior near some of those borders to try for contact or should we wait for Math (30 turns)? I'm thinking Math is going to be worthless as trade bait by the time we get it.

Yes the eye is still bothering me and it's still swollen some. Mostly it just feels like I have a cotton ball shoved in my lower lid. But I go back to the doc on Monday afternoon.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 01:50 PM

We have no beakers into the research yet btw.. so we can still change the research goal...

AlanH

May 18, 2005, 02:01 PM

Good map, leif. I didn't realise CA2 could do that. It's a pity that both cities 5 and 6 are off the rivers. Maybe 6 and 7 should each be 1 tile NE. That way at least 6 will be on the coast. There doesn't seem to be an alternative for 5.

I agree we should try for contact as early as possible. Any tech trades we can still do will wither fast.

DJMGator13

May 18, 2005, 02:02 PM

I'm heading out of work shortly, so i'll be playing in a few hours.

Is it better to make contact and decrease the research cost of the techs? And any thoughts on what to research, now that we know we are alone on the island?

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 02:12 PM

the advantage about waiting to make contacts is we will be able to trade maps so we can see where AI resources are located...

Btw.. I read somewhere that someone was able to run CA2 in VirtualPC, so you should be able o use it too Alan

AlanH

May 18, 2005, 02:38 PM

someone was able to run CA2 in VirtualPC, so you should be able o use it too Alan ... only if I had VirtualPC, which would involve sending Bill Gates money, which is against my religious principles :)

I have a slow old freebie PC that can and does run CA2 in Win98 SE2. I wouldn't even try to run PtW or C3C on my PC, but it runs CA2 plus CRpMapStat plus Notepad so that I can monitor the game and type my turn log as I go. It does all this on its own screen, accessing the save files on my Mac, so I maintain continuous simultaneous access to the Civ3 display on my Mac.

The PC also dual boots into Linux so that I can compile and test the utilities that run behind the GOTM submission processes, and I can play various networking tricks between my Mac and the PC, using file sharing, SSH, FTP, VNC ....

I was running CA2 as a beta before it saw the public light of day, and I used it during the latter stages of SGOTM6. The only reason I didn't know CA2 could do the dot map trick is that (a) I don't open the map view very often as my steam driven PC takes a while to render it and (b) I'm too lazy to RTFM.

Gyathaar

May 18, 2005, 02:42 PM

The city mapping looks ever better if you turn on the city border things imo.. then you easilly see overlap and unreachable tiles :)

TheNemesis666

May 18, 2005, 03:09 PM

about to head into work, and was just reading while eating breakfast. Gator, have you tried saving the images and opening them in what ever image view u have available on your work PC?
Sorry don't have time to look any further have to go to work. :cry:

EDIT: I'm going out tonight and saturday night but will be having a quiet friday night at home playing civ. I won't be able to play my turns until then if i'm up. That will be about 36 hours from now that I should be done and posted. I know it fits with in the time frame for playing turns but I just thought i should let you know in case you want to keep things moving by swapping alanh and myself in the roster.

AlanH

May 18, 2005, 03:37 PM

@Nemesis: If Gator plays tonight as threatened, then I prolly won't publish a new roster until Thursday evening 'Stryne time, which means there's a short period for discussion/spam before you play on Friday. While I don't want to lose momentum, I don't think it's good to play too fast, as we all need time to digest what we discover as we go along.

I'm out Friday (blast from the past ... Alan Price gig) and Saturday (post-election [party]), but I can usually get some playing time in during the days.

DJMGator13

May 18, 2005, 03:54 PM

Good point about the map trading, so I'll try to keep away from those areas for now. I'll have enough to do with the settler factory.

I read a little of Handy14 & 15 today, things sure can turn bad quickly in AWD. They lost 14 and are at a critical stage in 15. Map design and being able to establish a controllable front appear to be very important keys for winning.

leif erikson

May 18, 2005, 04:22 PM

Good map, leif. I didn't realise CA2 could do that. It's a pity that both cities 5 and 6 are off the rivers. Maybe 6 and 7 should each be 1 tile NE. That way at least 6 will be on the coast. There doesn't seem to be an alternative for 5.
Well, you know why I didn't do that? I just can not bring myself to settle a city on a BG. ;) :blush: :crazyeye:

I tried to get as many cities as I could on rivers and leave the BG's free. Given those criteria, it was pretty easy to lay this out. In the south, the mountains prevented me from using the squares I really wanted. :sad:

CA2 is a nice tool for doing this too. You can click on any map square and it gives you the f/s/g values in a little window at the bottom. I'm still learning how to use it so I'm sure I can find other neat features I have yet to discover.

@Gator - I agree that Uskudar will be a great worker pump. There aren't too many other food rich sites that will make settler pumps, unfortunately. Good luck in your search and in your turns. Hope that eye heals up. :D

DJMGator13

May 19, 2005, 09:18 AM

I could not play last night because I did not have Gyathaar's save :wallbash: and I could not get back online after dinner. Why? No earthly idea :confused: I have a cable modem and for some reason I could not get it to reconnect. Hopefully the major highway construction hasn't damage something.

After trying to reinitialize my modem several times over an 1.5 hour period I decide that even if I can get the file it's too late to play. So, I continue to work on an exercise for the TDG and after about 40 minutes of working in the save file editor it crashes. :mad: Naturally I had not backed up anything. So after close to 2 hours of being at the computer and mostly watching TV I have accomplished nothing.

Get to work this morning and dl the save file to a diskette :clap: , just incase I can't connect at home tonight. I get the file and then start to post a progress update and we have a power spike that fries our router at the office. :suicide: Our computer guy just left, so 2.5 hours later I can finally post.

I'm now afraid to play the game tonight because it appears the RL rng gods are after me. I feel like this guy :twitch: and not because of my eye. So, if I survive my 1.25 drive home from work, I'll try to appease the rng gods and play tonight.

AlanH

May 19, 2005, 10:03 AM

You seem to have a poltergeist following you around! Hope it goes better tonight.

AlanH

May 19, 2005, 10:43 AM

Double spam alert :D

I've been thinking - always dangerous :eek:. It just occurred to me that we probably only need to hold one contact back until maps are around. We can trade for that civ's world map and we'll probably have a reasonable visibility of the world. Prior to that we should make some more contacts in order to reduce our research costs. There are six rivals in total, we know two already, so getting to know one or two more would undoubtedly help our research rate. The danger is that our contact gets traded to the rest, of course. Once the others appear on our F4 radar we have to declare. But that could happen anyway :hmm:

DJMGator13

May 19, 2005, 10:56 AM

So if we manage contact with both of the visible borders we would still have 2 civs available to trade maps with later. Being early it could be good to contact them. They have probably not meet the 2 northern tribes, so there is a good chance we can pick up a tech or two from them.

leif erikson

May 19, 2005, 11:52 AM

I've been thinking - always dangerous :eek:. It just occurred to me that we probably only need to hold one contact back until maps are around. We can trade for that civ's world map and we'll probably have a reasonable visibility of the world. Prior to that we should make some more contacts in order to reduce our research costs. There are six rivals in total, we know two already, so getting to know one or two more would undoubtedly help our research rate. The danger is that our contact gets traded to the rest, of course. Once the others appear on our F4 radar we have to declare. But that could happen anyway :hmm:
I think this is a good plan. I haven't played many smaller maps so I am unsure of what I am going to say, but, as usual, will do so anyway... :mischief: What I don't know is if the mini-map adjusts for scale or not. In other words, does a smaller map still fit in the entire mini-map window. There is still a lot of space to the west.

The mini-map shows 4 civs to our north, east and south. That leaves 2 civs and all that area of fog to the west. Until Map Making is widely known, those western civs shouldn't know the others yet. If we get lucky and they don't meet, we might get a tech brokering chance, although I realize this isn't a very good chance on Deity. :hmm:

For those reasons, I think making contact with the southern civs is a good idea. ;)

@Gator - try to take it easy the rest of the day, we wouldn't want to lose you! :eek: Have one of these :beer: on me... Dare I say Good Luck. :thumbsup:

WillowBrook

May 19, 2005, 12:04 PM

Good luck Gator! Maybe you should try taking a random walk/drive home from work to confuse/appease the RN gods?

DJMGator13

May 19, 2005, 05:28 PM

Playing now - is it better to irrigate or mine the desert goats? Or does it even help to do either with the despot penalty it should stay at 2/2.

AlanH

May 19, 2005, 05:32 PM

Desert is 0/1/0
Goats are 2/1/0
Desert goats are 2/2/0
The only improvement that does any good in despotism is a road.

Gyathaar

May 19, 2005, 05:34 PM

I think they will be 2/2 no matter what in despotism.. you can road them thou, but I would road the incense (and possibly the olives) first so we can lower lux tax

DJMGator13

May 19, 2005, 05:37 PM

That's what I thought I just wanted to make sure. Incense is roaded too and I'm working on the FPwheat.

I should have it posted in an hour or so.

DJMGator13

May 19, 2005, 06:54 PM

preturn - 2150BC
Looking at the map it appears that Arabia (pink border) has the potential to have already met the Zulus, their cultural borders are touching. I'll try to see if we can gain contact with Persia (light green). Surprisingly we are #3 in population and GNP, while we are #2 in Mfg Goods and Productivity.

It appears the 37% corruption for Uskudar is the waste amount. It will actually use 2 of 3 shields currently. But I keep it on the FPwheat and workers for now.

ARB started with POT & CB
PER started with BW & MAS

I change research to Writing, I almost went Myst in 12 but decided against it since we don't need Monarchy right away.

Hit enter

IBT - 2 barbs advance towards Iznik and a 3rd dies attacking Uskudar
Sogut settler => warrior
Iznik barracks => warrior

Turn 41 - 2110BC
worker roads incense hill
move settler and the eSpear to site 2
lux to 20 sci to 80 at -3

ZUL & IND both have Wheel, WC & Myst

IBT - a barb dies at Iznik, another moves up
Sogut warrior => settler

Turn 42 - 2070BC
found Izmit set to warrior
only 1 barb in view
we're still at -3gpt after the new city, I was hoping it would have dropped 1 gpt, but our sci picked up - due in 23 now

IBT - the barb dies attacking Iznik / VIK complete Colossus

Turn 43 - 2030BC
our contact warrior reaches the SE most point - we have lite up both areas, but no one is there

IBT - our incense is hooked up / IND starts the Pyramids & Oracle / ZUL only building Pyramids

Turn 44 - 1990BC
ZUL & IND both have Writing now also
mm Sogut to the oysters

IBT - Sogut settler => warrior
Iznik warrior => settler (figure we can sneak in the occassional settler here)

Turn 45 - 1950BC
lux to 10% sci to 90% still at -3gpt due in 14
move settler and warrior to Site 3
switching our spears around, so I had to take lux back to 10%, had it a 0 at one point

IBT - a barb appears from the east
Sogut warrior => settler

Turn 46 - 1910BC
found Aydin set to worker
drop sci to 80% only adds 1 turn but takes us to -1gpt

IBT - barb approaches Izmit / IND wish to speak, they want peace and 80 gold - I tell Ghandi he must be breathing in too much Elephant air / before leaving I see that he has contact with both the Persia and Arabia, so I doubt there is any trade value there.
Uskudar worker => worker
Izmit warrior => worker

Turn 47 - 1870BC
Since our 4 neighbors now each other and we are behind by 4 techs I decide to move our contact warrior out of the SE corner, might as well delay contacting them.
eqWorker roads wheat, move new worker to desert goats

IBT - barb dies atacking Izmit

Turn 48 - 1830BC
After abandoning lookout point last turn someone sells our name to the Arabs
ARAB: 2 cities, 3 gold, up Wheel, WC & MYST, down nothing
Call him an infidel and issue DOW
have to take lux back to 20%

IBT - troubling, several civs have HBR because a Bhorse rides up from the west
Sogut settler => warrior

Turn 49 - 1790BC
fort a vWarrior on Iron Mt to deal with the Bhorse
drop lux to 0% leave sci at 80% at +0
move spear from Iznik into Aydin, closest city to the Bhorse

IBT - Bhorse dies attacking Aydin
Sogut warrior => settler

Turn 50 - 1750BC
not much
lux had to go to 10% - we need to get the spices by site 5 hooked up soon

Score: F182 J207

Notes to next player
1) don't forget to mm Sogut after it reaches size 6
2) I left the settler, spear and warrior in Aydin unmoved - I'd send the settler and spear towards site 1
3) we may want to change the settler (in 5) build in Iznik to a spear (in 2)
4) we are allowed 20 units and have 14 so far, 8 warriors, settler, 2 workers and 3 spears
5) we are strong to Arabs, so they will probably be our first target if we can get to them before another AI does

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Xteam_SG007_01.jpg

leif erikson

May 19, 2005, 08:41 PM

Looking good Gator :goodjob: Glad to see you shook the monkey off your back... :thumbsup: :rockon:

Nice call on Writing too, as CA2 says that they all have Mysticism already! :eek:

Your right that we should prolly get that Spice hooked up fairly soon as well.

After Writing, shall it be Map Making if we can't trade for it or Lit with the hope of trading for Map Making? :mischief: As usual, I'm for the direct approach, Map Making. :D

iirc, Nemesis is in the hot seat, Good Luck! :bounce: :)

TheNemesis666

May 19, 2005, 09:19 PM

woohoo, got dial in pc setup at work but the response times are killing me. (and i just managed to kill my first reply somehow)
Good stuff gator. I'll have a closer look tonight when I get home and maybe post some q's. if any of them seem game threatening then I'll wait till tomorrow morning to play, currently I can't see anything i'm not sure of. Build settlers, build military, get iron city founded and spice city founded.
I'm happy to grab map making next unless anyone has a case for something else.
I'll post again when i've "got it"

edit: i should be home and looking at the save in about 4 hours from this post.

AlanH

May 20, 2005, 01:08 AM

Good set, Gator. Sounds like our contacts will happen regardless.

Tomoyo - played 3000 BC
leif erikson - played 2550 BC
Gyathaar - played 2150 BC
Gator - played 1750 BC
Nemesis UP
AlanH - on deck

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 01:55 AM

I got it. Will load it up in about an hour and will take my time with it. If anyone has any last minute things they want me to look at in my set post, i'll be checking as i play.

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 06:14 AM

Pretty straightforward right now. Just remember that the barbs have horses. Keep the spears moving to the front.

I think mapmaking is a good next choice providing its not a 40 turn research. At this point we should go for the techs already known, that we favor, so that we have the reduced research time. The only thing of value we will have to trade later in this game is our world map.

MapM will also allow us to go visit the Arabs with a stack of swords later. I'm hoping they are on an island by themselves also.

leif erikson

May 20, 2005, 06:24 AM

Should keep an eye out for Literature too. If the AI doesn't have it by the time of our last conteact, we might consider researching it and passing it to that last civ. if we can manage it. Someone needs to build us a Great Library! :mischief:

But the immediate need is transport to help us assimilate a few other civs. ;)

BTW, ironic isn't it, that the Zulu culture is predominate at this point, a Militaristic civ? M-B must have infected them with an organ and some religion.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 07:19 AM

ok, sorry got distracted by Friday night football. (but yay my team won, just)
Now i'm at a point where I need to found new city 6 or new city 7.
Are we going with the layout originally suggested or are we moving them NE 1 tile? I'm easy either way, although i'll probably have to close my eyes to press 'B' while the settler is on the BG. :)

EDIT: I'll have a break to wait for any answers/suggestions, alanh said he couldn't play till saturday so theres time.

EDIT2: Um, i have a more important question, am i to begin hooking iron mt up to the tradenet or do we want to delay for the mass warrior upgrade? We only have 146g at the moment with 7 v.warriors's and 2 r.warriors's. (there are at least two barb camps out there also)

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 07:52 AM

I would not hook up the iron just yet. It will mess up our settler/warrior factory. We need to keep it running at top speed until we fill up our island.

On moving the cities 1 tile, I think it's ok as long as they stay at RCP6 from the capital. I can't check that at work, but Alan probably has already checked that out before suggesting it. He is the master of palace/fp locations.

EDIT: The 1 tile NE move of sites 6 & 7 does keep them at RCP6 so it would be ok to do that.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 08:02 AM

looking in civassist they are both RCP6. the zulu cultural border is now touching the "city site 7" tile but hasn't take it yet. being so far out from their city (2nd maybe 3rd expansion) i'm guessing this won't be an issue.

EDIT: sorry, only just saw your edit :)

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 08:08 AM

Good point. Can you post a screen shot of that area, showing the ZUL border and our proposed sites.

The shot I posted doesn't show that area very well. If the ZUL border is a 2nd or 3rd expansion than we will still have all 9 tiles to work.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 08:30 AM

I've stolen the spear from Izmit, warrior will be in Izmit next turn.

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 08:46 AM

I think it's OK to move both cities, the ZUL border won't infringe on us until we have a culture expansion there. It allows Site 6 to be coastal which lets us build a harbor and ship there. Site 7 is going to have limited shields either way so I'm not too worried about losing the BG there.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 08:56 AM

cool, i'll set them both up. 7 is going to be undefended at first, but i'll check it's site for barbs before i move towards it.

Gyathaar

May 20, 2005, 09:05 AM

Building the city (7?) on the original spot on the forest tile means the city will have 0 flip risk after cultural expansion
if buildt on the BG to the NE, several of the 21 tiles will be overlap with 21 tiles of zulu cities, so it will have flip risk.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 09:21 AM

Sorry Gyathaar, I only just saw your post. Had I seen it before I settled I would have waited for more discussion.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 09:32 AM

Preturn
spear and settler head for iron city site ("new city 1" on leif's plan)

Turn 51 - 1725BC
move worker at sogut to forrest near iron suffle war from sogut to aydin so aydin war can protect worker
(wanted plains for quicker road but only have a warrior to def. and i'm scared of those barb horsies)
settler pair to iron mt

Turn 52 - 1700BC
Izmit worker->barracks
settler pair arrives at "new city 1" location
MM Uskudar to delay worker a turn to fit in with growth (not sure if this is right or if it doesn't matter given food excess? critique's please)
MM Sogut from forrest to oyster
sci80%, lux20%, -3gpt, 147g, Writing stays 5t (need lux up a notch for sogut)

IT
Barb horse rides up to Uskudar from the east

Turn 53 - 1675BC
Antalya founded on "new city 1" site and pops barbs from the hut (Antalya start barracks)
shuffle warrior from iron mt to forrest(worker def), from forrest to Aydin, Aydin to Iznik
warrior from Iznik vs barb horse, wins (spots another horse on hill to the east)
can't see any horses in range of our worker askudar so will use the warrior to cover uskudar and the spear to protect our victorious warrior from second horse
our explorer warrior down south heads back to scout for the barb camp
sci80%, +1gpt, 144g, Writing stays 4t

IT
barb horse kills our fortified spear near askudar (we redline horse, but only just)
hmm, i guess would have rathered loose the war he was protecting
Horse moves out of fog onto mt nw of Antalya
two barb war's from hut die attacking our spear in Antalya
third barb war moves to plains across river at uskudar (but not the Wheat FP?)

Turn 54 - 1650BC
Sogut war->settler
Uskudar worker->worker
war vs barb horse, wins
settler arrives at "new city 5" has war2/4 and war4/4 escort
Zulu and Indians have Writing
sci80%, lux10%, +0gpt, 145g, Writing stays 3t

IT
barb horse dies attacking spear at Antalya
barb war dies attacking war at Uskudar

Turn 55 - 1625BC
Iznik settler->spear
Bursa founded on "new city 5" site (set to worker)
worker finishes road on forrest and moves to iron mt
(ok, just posted and got confirmation that we're not hooking iron up yet)
check writing but can't adjust slider

IT
American city of Washington has completed The Oracle

Turn 56 - 1600BC
Aydin worker->barracks
MM Sogut from forrest to oyster
scout warrior finds barb camp 3 tiles SE of Bursa (with warrior and horse at home)
sci70%, lux20%, +0gpt, 147g, Writing stays 1t (lux for sogut)

IT
our r.war is killed by barb horse (in a jungle, across a river and without even hurting the horse)
The Indians are building The Pyramids in Delhi
The Zulu are building The Pyramids in Zimbabwe

Turn 57 - 1575BC
we discover Writing
sci80%, +2gpt, 147g, Map Making 27t
nobody has map making yet (which is good, our military is a little thin)
hmm, I lose a v.warrior attacking the barb horse in jungle (no river) :sad:
bring v.warrior out of bursa to cover workers on spice
start forrest chop at aydin

IT
redlined barb horse moves towards bursa

Turn 58 - 1550BC
Sogut settler->warrior
hmm, do i risk another v.warrior on the now wounded horse (i will, i feel ripped off that I lost the last one)
v.warrior kills barb horse without taking a scratch
sci80%, lux10%, +1gpt, 149g, Map Making stays 25t

IT
The Arabs have been destroyed!!! (hey, it's my turnset, do i get credit for that? :D )

Turn 59 - 1525BC
Uskudar worker->worker
spices are now hooked up
sci80%, +2gpt, 150g, Map Making 25t

Turn 60 - 1500BC
Edirne founded at "new city 6" (goody hut deserted)
Istanbul founded at "new city 7"
MM Sogut from forrest to oyster
sci80%, lux10%, +1gpt, 152g, Map Making stays 20t

Zulu and India are up The Wheel, Warrior Code and Mysticism.

With the settling I've left our military a little thin for the next player, sorry.
I lost a spear and 2 warriors too! (I don't feel I did much wrong to deserve that though)
and i've now decided the worker that's just arrived to assist developing Iznik probably should have gone to Uskudar.
I'm not attached to any of my present build orders and the next player can change as they see fit.
(the workers in Edirne and Istanbul are really only place holders for the next player to decide)
I'm here to learn so please post comments and critisisms if you find time.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC1500_01.SAV)

EDIT: (do any of my posts not have an edit?) Added screen shot.

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 09:37 AM

Hopefully we wont have to worry about flips on our home island, now on the other islands that's a different story.

With only 1 coastal city right now, having the ability to make both 6 & 7 coastal is better in the short run. We can let both of those cities build galleys (with MapM) and keep our capital on troops and settlers.

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 09:39 AM

Probably should have included:

Firaxis score: 227
Jason score: 259

Gyathaar

May 20, 2005, 09:42 AM

The Arabs have been destroyed!!! (hey, it's my turnset, do i get credit for that? :D )

Awesome... now we dont have to worry about 3 move units till cavs :)
If only vikings could be wiped out too so we dont have to worry about amfibious attacks..

TheNemesis666

May 20, 2005, 09:59 AM

I guess now it's pretty clear why we were strong against the Arabs. :)

leif erikson

May 20, 2005, 12:29 PM

Good work Nemesis! :goodjob:

Welcome to the XTeam RNG, losing a couple of units to Barbs. That's how it goes, so I wouldn't worry about it. I would probably have attacked them as well. We like the aggressive spirit! :D

We are in awe of Zulu culture. Istanbul has a flip risk of 0.2 to 6.1% according to CA2. CrpMapStat says that our culture is 100 (+2), India's is 245 (+16) and Zulu's are 305 (+15). To eliminate the flip risk requires 19 units! :eek:

Checking the economy tabs shows something very interesting. All our ring 6 cities have 41% waste/corruption except the 2 that are at distance 6.5, Uskudar and Bursa. They have 46% waste/corruption. I guess 6.0 and 6.5 are now different, unless CA2 calculates it differently? :confused:

We have 9 cities while India has 6 and Zulu 7 (CrpMapStat). Looks like it was Persia that did in the Arabs (although I will give you credit, Nemesis, once you present us with the cities :lol: :lol: ) We'll have to think about how to deal with Persia before they get too uppity. ;)

Alan, good luck building the Army and hunting down these Barbs. And, have a good time at the parties!
:love: :beer: :banana:

DJMGator13

May 20, 2005, 01:11 PM

I forgot to say well done Nemesis.

Some general ramblings:

I'm not too worried about Istanbul flipping. We will be fighting flips throughout the whole game. I was thinking it might be better to keep cities versus razing them if we can strike quick enough, but we'll need to see how that plays out.

It would also be nice to have our island settled before the massive uprising. Hopefully the AI's will still have open area where the Arabs were when the uprising occurs and they will get hit by the barbs.

Speaking of the Nemesis vanquished Arabs, once we get MapM it might be worth moving a stack of troops and a settler to their old home and setting up a beachhead city as a distraction for the AIs, so that they will leave our home island alone.

AlanH

May 20, 2005, 04:59 PM

Nice work Nemesis. The Xteam RNG is renowned for kicking us in the teeth. We actually enjoy it now :D. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry over your single-handed destruction of the Arabs. We need contacts to reduce our research costs, assuming we are going to be researching in arrears. And I guess we now have one bigger enemy where we had two smaller ones. On the other hand, as Gator points out, there may now be some spare land available out there. And if they had small uncultured cities then most will have auto-razed.

Tomoyo - played 3000 BC - on deck
leif erikson - played 2550 BC
Gyathaar - played 2150 BC
Gator - played 1750 BC
Nemesis - played 1500 BC
AlanH UP

I've just got in from the Alan Price gig - Spinal Tap with style - so I'll get it asap on Saturday, come back for advice, and play by Sunday.

DJMGator13

May 21, 2005, 06:23 AM

Any of you (lurkers included) have much experience with the save game editor in the Multi Tools util? I'm trying to set up a final exercise for the TDG to make it a little more interesting and after I add a few units to one of the AI's the game won't let me load it anymore and I can no longer edit that save. I posted a help request in the Multi tool thread already.

Any help would be appreciated.

DJMGator13

May 21, 2005, 06:35 AM

Double post alert:

Just looking over the save file and it does look like PER took out ARB and they have settled/captured cities up to the ZUL border, so I doubt there will be much space open there for us to claim.

I would guess that that IND & ZUL are together on an island, while ARB and PER were together on another island. It's a shame that ARB and PER fought so early, we were not in a position to join in that war, hopefully PER does not become a monster in this game.

Good luck Alan.

leif erikson

May 21, 2005, 11:23 AM

hopefully PER does not become a monster in this game.
Here I go, thinking out loud again! :blush: Domination is the name of the game and perhaps we should think about isolating Persia on their island and go after the Indian and Zulu island first, unless of course, whatever island The Vikings and America is on may be easier to take.

We need to reach 66% of the available domination tiles. Given the Ai's poor amphibious assault skills, we could contain a superior Persian military on their island while we pick off easier prey, assuming the other civs will be "easier"? :mischief:

EDIT - Taking the Indian city north of Sogut, while it wouldn't be flip proof, at least it would be in our cultural influence and be an easy place to feed in troops. ;)

AlanH

May 21, 2005, 12:11 PM

OK, Got it. I've had a look around, and there are a couple of issues:

1. We are back down to two contacts. Getting more would currently have no effect. India and Zulu don't have Map Making yet, they both know Persia, so Persia probably doesn't have it yet either. If so, meeting Persia would not speed up our research.

2. There's one more city site at 6.x on our island. It's north of the cow, and in the fog. Do we settle there next? We have no roads in that direction yet, and it's 5 tiles from Aydin. BTW: The worker building a road SW from Aydin to Antalya, currently on a mountain, should probably have build two roads to the west of Aydin which would have joined up Antalya and pushed the road system towards the cow for fewer worker turns.

3. Alternatively we could start a third ring to shed more light to the south. We'll need to do that anyway after the next settler. Radius 9.x looks OK to me - any other suggestions?

4. We have a barb camp in jungle to our south, right next to a goody hut. Are we going after camps?

AlanH

May 21, 2005, 12:21 PM

EDIT - Taking the Indian city north of Sogut, while it wouldn't be flip proof, at least it would be in our cultural influence and be an easy place to feed in troops. ;)

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here, but it seems to me that once we start attacking a civ on any island we have to see it through until we own that island. We can't make peace, so there's no benefit in attacking, taking a few cities and then pausing. We just have to live with flips. They are a fact of Civ life, and the Xteam RNG will ensure that we get more than our share :D.

I agree we may well want to leave Persia until later. Presumably they are currently in a Golden Age with Immortals. If we wait their GA will have dissipated. Immortals can be dealt with OK by horses, though, as long as we can keep out of their range until we attack.

AlanH

May 21, 2005, 12:23 PM

Party Time. I'll check in again later ...

leif erikson

May 21, 2005, 03:31 PM

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here, but it seems to me that once we start attacking a civ on any island we have to see it through until we own that island. We can't make peace, so there's no benefit in attacking, taking a few cities and then pausing. We just have to live with flips. They are a fact of Civ life, and the Xteam RNG will ensure that we get more than our share :D.
Hope the party was enjoyable!! [party] ;)

What I am suggesting is an alternative to Gator's suggestion:
Speaking of the Nemesis vanquished Arabs, once we get MapM it might be worth moving a stack of troops and a settler to their old home and setting up a beachhead city as a distraction for the AIs, so that they will leave our home island alone.
But instead focus on India and the Zulu. I agree with what you said and instead of establishing a beachhead on the Persian island, I think we should go after India and Zululand. Facing Immortals at this stage, without horses, will require our full production of military units and I don't see what we get for that effort. Let's instead, hit someone's heartland and take the cities they've built for us. :mischief: Especially since they get further ahead of us technologically with each turn. We need to build an Army of invasion! :thumbsup:

My point about India first is that those cities are near Sogut, both for productivity and for cultural flip purposes. I agree we will lose some cities to flips, that's a fact of life, :rolleyes: but taking India first should minimize that as well as allow us to immediately produce units there to support our cause, even if they are warriors that we ship back across the straight for upgrade in Sogut.

DJMGator13

May 21, 2005, 06:07 PM

2. There's one more city site at 6.x on our island. It's north of the cow, and in the fog. Do we settle there next? We have no roads in that direction yet, and it's 5 tiles from Aydin. BTW: The worker building a road SW from Aydin to Antalya, currently on a mountain, should probably have build two roads to the west of Aydin which would have joined up Antalya and pushed the road system towards the cow for fewer worker turns.

Eventually yes, but not necessarily the next city. With the cow it is too attractive to the AI. I'd like to try to limit the action on our home island, at least in the early stages.

3. Alternatively we could start a third ring to shed more light to the south. We'll need to do that anyway after the next settler. Radius 9.x looks OK to me - any other suggestions?

See answer above.

4. We have a barb camp in jungle to our south, right next to a goody hut. Are we going after camps?

Probably just had too many barbs coming in to deal with earlier. But as we build closer to them I'd definately take them out. Hopefully before the Massive Uprising.

India v. Persia
I agree with leif & Alan that India is a better target then a strong Persia. My suggestion was before looking at the save and before seeing that Persia had captured at least 2 of the Arab cities.

Poltergeist update

(Think any Blues tune)
Woke up this morning...da do da do
and feed the cat...da do da do
Walk to the trash...da do da do
and saw the leak...da do da do

Enough with the Blues. I've just spent the day repair the main water line into the house and guess what? After letting it cure for 2 hours, the damn valve we bought is bad. It now has only a small drip from the valve seperating the main line and the irrigation system. Problem is it on the back side of the valve which should be closed off when the valve is shut down. So we'll have to work on it again tomorrow. But at least its not the gusher leak from the broken pipe.

leif erikson

May 21, 2005, 07:43 PM

Poltergeist update
So we'll have to work on it again tomorrow. But at least its not the gusher leak from the broken pipe.
Good Luck, I hate it when stuff like that happens! :cry: My wife always tell me bad things happen in threes, and wives are always right, :confused: so you're due a break. ;)
Eventually yes, but not necessarily the next city. With the cow it is too attractive to the AI. I'd like to try to limit the action on our home island, at least in the early stages.
I really don't understand what you mean. :hmm: It seems to me that we should get the ring completed and have a city with a Barracks and a couple of Swordies waiting for the pitiful AI amphibious assault that will happen. Waiting too long either gives that spot to them or allows them to catch us before we are prepared, no? :blush:

Besides, isn't it getting to the time when we really ought to have a look up there. I suppose it could wait until we have Map Making so we can trade Maps, unless they have MM? :mischief:

DJMGator13

May 21, 2005, 08:28 PM

We don't have any roads in that area currently, as Alan pointed out. Once we can get some roads headed in that direction by all means get a city there and make it productive. Without roads and a quick way to move troops to defend it, makes it not a high priority site for the next 10 turns.

We also know there is a Bcamp in that area so I wouldn't waste a warrior to explore. If we can start the road building that direction I'd send a spear and an archer or two (I think we have 2 but I may be thinking of another game) to clear out the Bcamp before sending in a settler.

leif erikson

May 21, 2005, 09:08 PM

Thanks, I understand what your saying now. Sorry for being dense, but I can't help it! :rolleyes:

Thinking out loud, we have a settler coming in 1 at Sogut and a Spear in 2 at Iznik. We have a Vet Warrior near Antalaya. We do not have Warrior Code yet, so no Archers. There are 2 workers coming, one due in 4 turns and one in 5. Our Army consists of 8 Warriors, 2 Spears and 5 Workers.

With all the city spots filled in ring 3 and only one left in 6, the choices are pretty thin. What are the alternatives to settling? We either complete ring 6 and move on to 9 or build warriors for upgrade? Or is there something better? :hmm: More workers?

AlanH

May 22, 2005, 10:47 AM

I don't think Gator is suggesting stopping settling altogether, just delaying the last radius 6.x town. I assume from the lack of any other suggestions that we should press on with a ring at radius 9.x, There are four or five sites in that ring. We need to fill our island asap to make it inhospitable to barbs and to make it more defensible.

I think I should improve the road system north west during my turns so that we can illuminate and populate that area as soon as possible. I also think we need a few more workers. Five for nine towns, even if they are industrious, is pretty low given our mountains and jungles, so Nemesis' current worker builds are probably reasonable.

leif erikson

May 22, 2005, 11:58 AM

I don't think Gator is suggesting stopping settling altogether, just delaying the last radius 6.x town. I assume from the lack of any other suggestions that we should press on with a ring at radius 9.x, There are four or five sites in that ring. We need to fill our island asap to make it inhospitable to barbs and to make it more defensible.
Sorry, misunderstood Gator's post. I thought when he wrote:
See answer above.
that he meant to delay settling ring 9 as well due to lack of roads and all that jungle. I missed his point. :blush:

I agree with your plan. :goodjob: :D

WillowBrook

May 22, 2005, 07:10 PM

Good luck, Alan!

Looking forward to the plans for taking out the Indian infidels!

AlanH

May 22, 2005, 08:14 PM

Turn log 1500 BC to 1250 BC

Preflight:
Two workers on a grass tile! OK we'll road with one and mine with the other.
Three other workers will finish in 2 turns. One is chopping, and we finish a spear in Iznik in 2.
Could switch Iznik to a wonder to ensure the chop goes to Aydin's barracks,
we waste a turn and some shields in Iznik, but better that than waste a ten shield chop.
Note we need to use two flood plains in Uskudar next turn to grow in two.
Izmit needs improved tiles for growth in two turns.

No changes

Hit next turn.

IBT Sogut settler->warrior. Should complete with 9 shields production + 2 extra on growth?
FP alert raised.
Toynbee lists the Largest Nations: Ottomans - Yeah!, Zulu, Persia, India, America, Vikings.

Turn 1 1475 BC Settler south towards flood plain/coastal site near fish and rocks.
Oh! We have a worker in Izmit.Izmit and Istanbul both need improved tiles so he'll go MW to work a river plains tile.
Worker near Iznik starts road on tile already being mined by another worker.
Warrior near Antalya West to coast.Switch Iznik to Pyramids for a turn to repel the forest chop.

IBT Chop goes to Aydin. Sogut warrior->settler

Turn 2 1450 BC New warrior to Iznik, warrior from Iznik to Uskudar, warrior from Uskudar plus settler south of Uskudar.
Worker near Izmit starts irrigation. Road to Istanbul complete, worker to forest to road to Edirne.
Worker who chopped near Aydin roads. Mountain road complete near Antalya, worker N to road out of Aydin, with warrior from Aydin covering.
Warrior N on west coast, sees another cow.

IBT Iznik spear->spear. Zulu are building the Great Lighthouse, so Map Making is at large.

Turn 3 1425 BC Spear from Iznik to Aydin. Warrior N on west coast sees barb camp. Warrior/settler south to next city site.
India doesn't have mapmaking yet. We can expect a visit from the zulus soon, though. Might be an idea to start hooking up out iron soon.
Worker to Bursa to start a road to the hill iron. Worker starts road to Edirne.

IBT Uskusar worker->worker

Turn 4 1400 BC Now India has mapmaking as well. Build Konya at 9.5 south of Sogut. Warrior NE across river before attacking barb camp.
Start irrigation near Aydin, raod near Izmit. Move troops around for a spear in Sogut, warrior in Istanbul
Persia has founded Tarsus on our known map, but we still have no contact.

IBT Sogut settler->warrior. Bursa worker->barracks.

Turn 5 1375 BC Warrior attacks barb camp in NW and dies without inflicting any damage :(
Worker starts road on hill west of iron hill. Settler south
Slider to 2.8.0. (forgot on previous cycle!)

IBT Sogut warrior->settler

Turn 6 1350 BC Workers continue. Settler towards SW coast site. We probably have four more sites to settle to fill the island.
That's 15 more turns of the warrior/settler factory. We have to decide whether to connect iron sooner than that.

IBT Izmit barracks->warrior

Turn 7 1325 BC Settler towards SW coast. Still no contact with Persia.

Turn 8 1300 BC Worker to iron hill. Settler to SW coast site. Slider 1.8.1 for Sogut pop 6.

IBT Barb horse SE of Bursa. Sogut settler->warrior. Iznik spear->spear.
Uskudar worker->barracks. Zulus complete Pyramids.

Turn 9 1275 BC Build Adana on SW coast. Spear to Bursa. Settler to Aydin. Slider 2.8.0.

IBT Zulu galley appears near Edirne. Barb galley also. Barb horse to hill near Bursa.
Sogut warrior->settler. Edirne worker->barracks. Istanbul worker->barracks.

Turn 10 1250 BC Settler onto western site at radius 6.5. Spear to mountain to move into this city site next turn.
Spear fortifies in Bursa against barb horse.

Handover There are threats from barb horse and Zulu galley.
Careful MM needed in Sogut. It's producing 9spt the next 2 turns, plus 2 shields growth bonus->20 shields.
Then MM for 10spt at pop 6 to complete settler in three.
Could do it easier by using the mined BG near Aydin, but that would reduce Aydin's production or food.
Don't forget to set 10% lux at pop 6 in Sogut.
There's a settler on site N, NW of Antalya at radius 6.5.
Spear is headed to protect that site as there's a barb camp in the north. Warrior can then move to Antalya.
I think it's time to hook up some iron and produce some swords.
We are about to be visited by the Zulus, and we need to kill barb to settle the south coast.
There are two sites at radius 9.x in the south, one on the spices (very close to Persian Tarsus) and one SW of the goody hut.
We haven't made contact with Persia yet.

Here's a map, with some dots, and the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC1250_01.SAV)

Gyathaar

May 23, 2005, 02:16 AM

The red dot NW of the cow is at distance 7, not 6
Our military seems very stretched.. I dont see how we will be able to handle a landing of eg 2 swords since we have no swords, horses or cats.. and we seem very light on spears too compared to number of cities

AlanH

May 23, 2005, 04:20 AM

The red dot NW of the cow is at distance 7, not 6Correct. It should be ME of it's current location. I'll replace the map.

Our military seems very stretched. I dont see how we will be able to handle a landing of eg 2 swords since we have no swords, horses or cats. and we seem very light on spears too compared to number of cities
Also correct. I was aiming to hook up the iron by settling the spices in the south. The road is almost complete on the iron hill. We then have enough gold to upgrade 4 warriors at 40 gold each, and we'll have completed most of our main settler rush. However, I don't know whether we'll have enough time to do this before the AI start landing, and even if we do four swords is a very small force.

Tomoyo

May 23, 2005, 04:51 AM

Got it, will play this afternoon/evening.

We might be able to survive the landings if they are not landings of swords. Sometimes the AI will land just warriors, even on Deity.

In the future, we might be able to ease the pain of figuring out where the AI will land by choking up the channel between us and the AIs.

leif erikson

May 23, 2005, 06:51 AM

Looks good Alan! :goodjob:

After Map Making and building a few more units, looks like its time to meet the mighty Persians. :p

Good luck Tomoyo.

DJMGator13

May 23, 2005, 08:10 AM

We could get lucky and have the Bgalley sink the Zulu galley.

If we hook up the iron could Sogut be a 5 turn spear/settler factory for a few turns. May need to squeeze in a worker to keep it under size 7.

EDIT: Definately time to start building a response team. I like Alan's idea for the quick swords.

AlanH

May 23, 2005, 08:22 AM

Sogut could probably do spear/settler in 5 turns just by slowing down the food supply for two turns. Pop the spear, running at 9spt and 2-3fpt, then produce the settler at 9-10spt and 5fpt for three turns. Lots of MM, of course, to make sure we reuse the food elsewhere during those spear turns.

There's a warrior build in Izmit due in one turn that should probably be switched to a spear as well.

leif erikson

May 23, 2005, 12:06 PM

I think we need the response team as well. However, I think if we assume that Persia has the same techs ahead as India and Zulu, shouldn't we reserve some gold for tech purchase from Persia. We would have The Wheel, Warrior Code and Mysticism to choose from. We should also be able to trade maps. :D

I know I would love to see if we have horses on our little island? ;)

Here we go, back to "was it five shots or six?". :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tomoyo

May 23, 2005, 07:25 PM

1250BC (0): Switch Izmit to spearman.

Diplo check: We're at war with everyone.

IT: Forests chopped at Istandul and Edirne, barb horse pillages road.

1225BC (1): The barb horses are killed. Sinop founded.

IT: Thank god for differential naval movement. That Zulu galley is moving slow as molasses. (Wow! Second time today that I've used that phrase!)

1200BC (2): Sogut grows, changes are made accordingly.

IT:

Sogut: Settler --> Warrior
Izmit: Spearman --> Spearman
Aydin: Barracks --> Warrior
Antalya: Barracks --> Spearman

1175BC (3): Science down to 40%.

Wow, Sogut-Izmik-Iznit reminds me of our core in SGOTM6! :eek:

IT: Map Making --> Mathematics

A forest is chopped at Izmit.

1150BC (4): Disperse the northwestern barb camp and find an Indian settler pair - On our island! :eek:

Disperse the barb camp in the southeast and meet Persia. 160 gold and our WM for their WM and the Wheel.

Zulu, India, and Persia are all on separate islands. And we have horses. One southwest of Sogut and one by Istanbul. The one by Istanbul is connected.

Sogut did not get ten shields for some reason, even though it grabbed the forest. This is bad. I'll re-adjust the cycle.

IT:

Sogut: Warrior --> Settler
Iznik: Chariot --> Chariot
Iznit: Spearman --> Spearman

1125BC (5): Not much, actually.

IT: A forest is chopped at Istanbul. The Zulu galley drops off two warriors near Istanbul! [party]

1100BC (6): Fortify Sogut with two spearmen and two warriors. BTW - The landing of the warriors screwed up Sogut - now it will be back on it's old course, but one turn slower.

IT: Aydin: Warrior --> Spearman

1075BC (7): Kafa founded.

IT: The two Zulu warriods heal the spearman in Izmit by one hp amd die.

Sogut: Settler --> Spearman

1050BC (8): Send a lone warrior to hopefully raze Karachi. I think the cost:chance:return ratio is pretty good here.

IT: New York completes the Lighthouse

1025BC (9): Our veteran warrior defeats the Indian elite warrior and we raze Karachi! :dance:

Upgrade a warrior.

IT: Zulu land a single warrior that messes up the growth of Sogut. :mad:

Sogut: Spearman --> Settler
Iznik: Chariot --> Chariot
Antalya: Spearman --> Swordsman

1000BC (10): Attack a Zulu elite warrior with a swordsman and lose, creating a Zulu leader. The chariot loses as well.

Kill ratio: [3-2] Horrible. At least compared to the [64-1] I had in GA6.

- Troops have been shuffled around to deal with the Zulu warrior.
- I have no idea how to work Sogut - Zulu landings are disrupting everything!
- I would keep science relatively low to allow for upgrades.
- Horseback Riding would be a good next choice.
- I should have built some galleys. Really should have.
- Persia has a city on our island.
- That's all. Over and out.

The north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/XSGOTM7_1000BCNorth.jpg

And the save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/XSGOTM7_1000BCSouth.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC1000_01.SAV)

DJMGator13

May 23, 2005, 08:34 PM

Good turns Tomoyo

Is that a new border west of Gordium.

leif erikson

May 23, 2005, 08:59 PM

Good work Tomoyo. :goodjob: You've met the enemy and held him at bay. :D

I've got it. Will have a look in the morning and should be able to play it tomorrow evening.

Looks like we need to start building that Army, throw the Persians off our island and build some Galleys and Cats (for defense). :rolleyes:

Should we begin the search for the other civs or wait? Have the Persians had any contacts with anyone else?

TheNemesis666

May 24, 2005, 02:17 AM

omg! I'm away for 2 days and half the map has been cleared!!!
Nice stuff Alan and Tomoyo.
Looks like Arabia must have had a pretty nasty start, lots of nice flood plains but that looks like it's all jungle and maybe one forrest. (can't tell from the screeny if it is over 2 squares on only 1) Their production would have been way down.
I also can't see a persian iron source, is this correct?
I'll open up the save and probably answer this question myself when I get a chance. (in fact I haven't read the posts in detail so it may already have been stated, I saw the map and just did a quick catch up to make sure I hadn't missed my turn while away!) :)

AlanH

May 24, 2005, 03:36 AM

Well done Tomoyo! Your kill ratio was much better than mine. If you count your successes against barbs as well you had 6:2. I had 0:1.

And we have horses :clap:

Tomoyo - played 1000 BC
leif erikson UP
Gyathaar - played 2150 BC - on deck
Gator - played 1750 BC
Nemesis - played 1500 BC
AlanH - played 1250 BC

Good hunting leif.

Gyathaar

May 24, 2005, 05:31 AM

I also can't see a persian iron source, is this correct?

They have iron under Arbela.

Is that a new border west of Gordium.

Looks like a viking border

zulus has no iron, and india has iron on the mountain in north end of their territory.. we should try to get that iron pillaged whenever possible... without iron they will be reduced to spears for defenders untill muskets, and archers untill chivalry (india dont need horses or iron for their knight UU, so that part is annoying... would be nice if we could cripple them before they get chivalry)

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 05:39 AM

@Nemesis - Persia has iron, under Arbela in the south.

Looks like I need to build some units for active defense. Next settler to the south, settling 1 south of the spice near Bursa. Send a couple of Swords and a Spear along to support the city and raid Sidon. Should probably start some Galleys.

What kind of unit mix do we want? Mostly Horses with some Swordies and 5 or 6 Cats for home defense?

I agree with Tomoyo, HBR after Math.

EDIT - Crossed with Gyathaar. Do we want to send a Galley out to find the other civs? How long will a couple of Swords sitting on Indias source of Iron (mountain) last if we send them. We could offload directly from the Galley onto the iron. :mischief: How many more settlers do we need?

Gyathaar

May 24, 2005, 05:50 AM

spears are better to send for the mountain.. as long as they dont die in the first IBT, they should last a while when fortified on mountain (unlikely they will be attacked).

4 spears should be good enough.

I disagree on HBR after math btw.. with cats redlining landed units, our elite units will be able to attack every turn, and chances are good of getting a leader...
since we are past 1000BC now, we can leaderrush great library, but we need to research literature to have that option...
in addition we need to get warrior code before we can get HBR too..
So I would go for literature before the other techs... also note that literature will mean we can build cheap libraries (40 shields for libraries vs 60 for temples) for culture and faster research.

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 05:59 AM

Excellent point on Lit. Forgot we didn't have Warrior Code and was dreaming of swarms of horsemen riding roughshod over the hapless Indians. :p The dream got in the way of actual thought. :rolleyes:

A question about Spears going to India. I know Spears cost 10 shields less but Swords have the same defense value and they could be used at invasion time to attack Madras. Just curious why Spears and not Swords?

Gyathaar

May 24, 2005, 06:16 AM

because they are cheaper...
We are very likely to loose atleast half of them. Those shields are better used to build swords/cats for homeland defense or an invasion force.

Spears are not wasted btw.. they will be upgraded to pikes and muskets that will be used to defend the lower defense MDI and knights/cavs

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 07:00 AM

Spears are not wasted btw.. they will be upgraded to pikes and muskets that will be used to defend the lower defense MDI and knights/cavs
I sort of realize this, but every time I use them, they melt away in the first attack and I lose cities. :cry: I much prefer to attack incoming units than sit back and wait for them to come to my city's door. Generally, the only time I would build Spears is when there is no unit available that has a 2 defense and I'm in serious trouble! :mischief: Which is too often. :lol: :lol: :lol:

DJMGator13

May 24, 2005, 09:21 AM

We can make 3 spears for the price of 2 swords and if we get overwhelmed by AI troops we will need the extra bodies.

Do we want to stay on our island until we complete the Great Library and just fight defensively

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 10:58 AM

Do we want to stay on our island until we complete the Great Library and just fight defensively
While we may be forced to do this for a while because our army is small, I don't think it is a good idea to continue that way for long. The amphibious attacks are feeble, I mean they involve a small number of units, so I think they are easily replaced. I don't know how long the Ai civs are from age change, but we'll soon see Pikes if we don't get a move on. Looking at the power graph, we are ahead of India, at par with Zuluand and behind Persia, imho.

We can see 6 Indian cities and I think we should prepare as soon as we can to go and get them. As Gyathaar said, Elephants require no resources, only Chivalry, and it would be better to take them out sooner than later. The Zulu have their UU, but I doubt their GA yet. It would be nice to set off their GA so that it can be spent while we are occupied with India and while they are in Despotism. Can we send a Warrior or 2 over to Zululand and Zimbabwe, hoping it is defended by an Impi and that we lose? :mischief:

To fit our rings of 3, 6 and 9, Indian cities, Delhi and south, will need to be razed and replaced, especially Lahore and Bangalore. If we can get 4 Spears onto the Iron Mountain in Indian territory, how many units do you figure we'd need to complete their destruction?

I am thinking around 6 to 8 galleys, 20 Swords, 3 Settlers and 6 additional Spears (in addition to the 4 on the iron mountain). Given our current situation, we can support 52 units without paying maintenance and we have 31 units. With the addition of 2 more cities, completing the 6 and 9 rings, we can support 60 units.

The other thing I was thinking about is if we can destroy Sidon and leave a couple of Swords down there to pick off Persian settlers to gain some slaves.

AlanH

May 24, 2005, 11:39 AM

I agree on Literature as our next tech. Some rushed libraries will help research and cultural defence, and a lucky Leader could give us the Great Library.

I think we should keep building settlers in Sogut, as razing and rebuilding AI cities will cut down on flips as well as allowing us to complete our rings.

Some questions to think about:

What should we do about getting a second core going? We can start an FP now if we want, maybe in Iznik. Alternatively we can wait for a Leader and build it in India or Zululand, or even hand build it somewhere as we did in SGOTM 4. Since we need all the unit production we can muster, it may not be a good idea to start it at home.

Should we do some resource disconnection and build warriors for upgrading? One of the reasons I went for the iron on the hill was that it will take less effort to reconnect it than the one on the mountain. This may change the equation between swords and spears, although we don't have a lot of cash for upgrades.

Should we try to kill Mpande (the Zulu GL sitting outside Sogut) before he gets on the galley? Or do we let the Zulus use him to rush something we can later capture?

Gyathaar

May 24, 2005, 11:45 AM

I would rather kill the leader than let them use it :)

there are a lot of warriors and a chariot in range to kill that warrior

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 11:56 AM

I would rather kill the leader than let them use it :)
I had planned to try and do this. Is there any good reason not to?

I was thinking about resource disconnection but am unsure how we can do it effectively while we are researching. We still have Mysticism and Polytheism to go before Monarchy, although we could try to get them in trades with civs we have yet to meet. And that begs the question of going out and looking for them or waiting until they call on us? :crazyeye:

If we are fortunate enough to get The Great Library, the Gold would be available for resource disconnection. :D

On FP, parts of India and Zululand are within our core radii of 3 and 6; 3 cities in India and 3 cities in Zululand. I'd like to see the other territory first, although we could jump the palace later. :mischief:

Tomoyo

May 24, 2005, 01:31 PM

I had planned to try and do this. Is there any good reason not to?That warrior is super-human! He killed a sword and a chriot already... :cry:

AlanH

May 24, 2005, 01:44 PM

That warrior is super-human! He killed a sword and a chriot already... :cry:

Ahah! But his luck is about to run out :rolleyes:

Gyathaar

May 24, 2005, 01:53 PM

Just bring some green kryptonite when attacking :)

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 02:19 PM

That warrior is super-human! He killed a sword and a chriot already... :cry:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Alan was right. Just started playing and I woke the Warrior in Aydin and he killed him flawlessly! The Great Leader is no more! :lol: :lol: :lol:

DJMGator13

May 24, 2005, 02:31 PM

Instead of doing the iron disconnect and creating more warrior, would it be better to build chariots and save gold to upgrade to horses (20 ea)?

AlanH

May 24, 2005, 03:01 PM

Yes! I like horses, specially cheap horses!

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 05:32 PM

Yes! I like horses, specially cheap horses!
The best thing about cheap horses is you can have lots of them!! :eek: :goodjob:

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_BC0750_01.SAV)

The turn log:

Turn 80 – 1000 BC
Pre-flight.
Wake Vet Warrior in Aydin and attack Zulu Warrior and Great Leader. Our Warrior kills him flawlessly and destroys leader. :thumbsup:
Reduce research slider to 50%, Math still due in 5 turns.
MM Aydin from Horse square to mined BG.
Press enter.

IBT
Persia has Iron; an Immortal moves up into Tarsus.
A Zulu Settler and an Impi are observed moving into Zimbabwe from the south.

Turn 81 – 975 BC
Settler founds the town of Davidiople and starts a worker.
Warrior returns to Aydin and fortifies.
Spear from Iznik to Uskudar as it grows to size 5.

IBT
Lots of Galleys move about, 3 Zulu and an Indian.

Turn 82 – 950 BC
Upgrade Vet Warrior in Sogut to Sword.
MM Sogut to get back on schedule, I hope.
Reduce reasearch slider to 10%, Math in 1.
Change lux sldier to 10%, Sogut grows to size 6.
CA2 says that America and the Vikings are available as contacts and confirm this using the F4 screen.

IBT
India drops of 2 Reg Warriors near Aydin.
We learn Mathematics, start Literature at 80%, 10 turns at zero GPT income.
Sogut Settler => Spear, but it isn’t right, only 4 food in the box. :cry:
Izmit Sword => Sword

Turn 83 – 925 BC
Change lux slider to 0%.
Vet Sword in Sogut moves and attacks Reg Indian Warrior and kills him, losing 1 HP.
Wake Vet Warrior in Aydin and attack Reg Indian Warrior and dies, redlining the Indian Warrior.
Elite Spear in Aydin attacks redlined Ind Warrior and kills him flawlessly, no leader. :rolleyes:
Settler heads south.

IBT
The Indians request an audience. He offers a peace treaty and would give us Contacts with the Americans and Vikings or 2 techs. But, I throw him out into the bay.
A Persian Galley moves near Kafa.
Iznik Chariot => Catapult. (Oh my!!) :cringe:

Turn 84 – 900 BC
Elite Spear returns to Aydin and fortifies.
Fortify Sword to heal.
Move a Sword near Kafa.

IBT
Forest harvested, chop goes to Izmit
Zulus land a Reg Warrior and a Reg Archer near Aydin.
Persian Galley moves off from Kafa without leaving anything behind.
Istanbul Barracks => Galley.

Turn 85 – 875 BC
Vet Sword attacks Reg Zulu Warrior, avoids Archer shot, and kills him, losing 1 HP.
Wake Vet Chariot in Izmit and move to attack Reg Zulu Archer. Kills him after losing 2 HP and promotes.
Change lux slider to 10% and research slider to 70%, Lit in 9 turns, making 3 GPT.
Upgrade vet Warrior in Istanbul to Sword.
Hire a taxman in Uskudar.

IBT
Sogut Spear => Settler.
Uskudar Barracks => Catapult
Aydin Sword => Galley.

Turn 86 – 850 BC
Settler founds the town of Alexmanika and starts a Barracks. There is an Immortal heading in our direction from Sidon. :eek:

IBT
Zulus land an Archer near Aydin.
Persians move an Immortal towards Kafa.
Izmit Sword => Sword.
Sinop Barracks => Chariot.

Turn 87 – 825BC
Vet Sword attacks Reg Zulu Archer and kills him flawlessly.
I want to attack that Immortal but the combat calculator says that we have only a 35.8% chance of defeating him. So I move to set a trap instead. :mischief:

IBT
Immortal moves into kill zone.
Iznik Catapult => Catapult.

Turn 88 – 800 BC
Cat to Aydin.
Sword to Iznik and fortify.
Vet Sword attacks a Vet Immortal and we kill him, redlining.
MM Sogut for food.

IBT
Indian Galley comes down from the north.
Zulus are starting to send more Galleys, four moved within site this turn.
Sogut Settler => Spear.

Turn 89 – 775 BC
Begin moving Settler to the north, the incense hill NW of Lahore.
Change lux slider to 0%, hire a taxman in Uskudar.

IBT
Indians add another Spear to Lahore.
Persian Galley, after making it to Istanbul, turns around and heads south.
Antalya Sword => Spear.
Edirne Barracks => Spear.

Turn 90 – 750 BC
Settler continues north.
Reduce research slider to 60%, Lit. due in 3 turns.

After Action Report
Our military is growing and consists of 6 Warriors, 9 Spears, 7 Swords, 2 Chariots and a Cat. Also, 11 Workers and a Settler. There are 2 Galleys under construction (2 turns and 10 turns) for the mission of Spears to the Indian Iron hill. There are a number of Spears under construction. We will also need to build a Harbor somewhere, I did not get to start one.

Sorry, didn’t get to Sidon as one of my Swords got redlined attacking an Immortal. There are 2 Swords in Alexmanika for that purpose. Don’t know if you’ll need more, but I’d think about it.

The pattern of the AI is to land units 1 square NE of Aydin. Both the Indians and Zulu have done it several times, so the Cat is in Aydin. There are several Swords nearby and an elite Chariot in Izmit.

The Zulu, Indians and Persians all know the Vikings and Americans, but I had no contact with them nor do they show in the F4 screen.

2 cities were built and a settler is heading for the last 6.x spot, the incense hill northwest of Lahore. I think Sogut is back on a good schedule, but repeated landings near Aydin throw it off each time.

While I started Barracks in some of the new towns, I thought hard about simply building Cats as the maintenance on the Barracks is getting expensive. Of course, the Barracks is nice to have if the Ai attacks us there. They are all set to Barracks now but….

Please feel free to change any build you think is needed and Good Luck Gyathaar! :salute:

AlanH

May 24, 2005, 06:13 PM

Good work leif. What a lot of cities! We're going to need a few libraries to fight the culture wars, as we have some borders at our city gates.

Is Alexmanika on a river? I dot-mapped it one tile SW to put it on the coast, but if the river is continuous there your placement is better.

Tomoyo - played 1000 BC
leif erikson - played 750 BC
Gyathaar UP
Gator - played 1750 BC - on deck
Nemesis - played 1500 BC
AlanH - played 1250 BC

Have at 'em, Gyathaar.

We need to think about our next research project - WC could be quick, and then we might be able to trade for HBR on the next contact? After that we need to focus on killing people for a while, I guess.

leif erikson

May 24, 2005, 08:21 PM

Is Alexmanika on a river? I dot-mapped it one tile SW to put it on the coast, but if the river is continuous there your placement is better.
Yes, it is on the river. I'm so used to building on rivers, I assumed that the site was there. :blush:

I think Gator's suggestion on building Chariots while we are waiting to obtain HBR is a good one. That means WC is next. When do we need to start thinking about researching a change in government and are we still headed for Monarchy. The reason I ask is that WC and HBR are pretty cheap according to CA2 (WC=88 and HBR=148), so if we can get these then we might be able to trade more easily for Mysticism (cost=120) and Polytheism (cost=360) so we can start on Monarchy (cost=960).

We should probably leave the tile NE of Aydin open to allow for AI landings. It is a nice place for picking off enemy troops and getting promotions and, if the RNG will cooperate, leaders. :rolleyes:

Good luck with Sidon and the Indian Iron Hill Gyathaar. :hammer:

EDIT - Looks like some oxygen has gotten to our slow burn. We have crossed a number of other team's lines in the score chart, some of them C3C games. :cool:
@Alan - Did you adjusted the difficulty modifier? ;)

DJMGator13

May 25, 2005, 07:34 AM

Looks good.

When we go on the offensive it looks to me that a quick jump to Lahore is in order. We would have a single front there and can move troops from our island to IND island with a galley and still have movement points to attack if need be. Based on the 3 known civs I think hitting IND soon is a good idea. As someone said earlier, we should cripple them before they get Jumbos.

Do we want a prebuild for the Great Library or do we bank on us getting a Leader for it? I'd hate to pour all those shields into a wonder and then lose it. We could build 20 chariots, then upgrade them for 400 gold, for the same shield cost of the Library. Or we could do 13 horses for the same 400 shield cost, once we have HBR. This is the biggest mistake Team Mistfit made in SGOTM03, we handbuilt a Wonder and diverted 600 shields that should have gone into military units and we never recovered.

Gyathaar

May 25, 2005, 07:54 AM

it is too late to start building GLib now imo.. we shoul dhave good chances of getting a leader, and when we do that the only useful wonders available would be Sun Tzu.. (but we already have Barracks in almost every productive town) or Leo's (but Leo's works just as well after we capture it..)

Building Glib would mean taking 30-40 turns.. if we cant get a leader in that timeframe then I doubt the GL will help us much :)

leif erikson

May 25, 2005, 10:49 AM

I agree that it is too late to try to hand build The Great Library. Those shields are much better used in building Chariots and Swords. The best way to get it built is prolly to attack India and get a GL. :D

Gyathaar, good luck with the RNG God!! :rolleyes:

TheNemesis666

May 25, 2005, 09:18 PM

Good stuff Leif, and it's nice to see our score curve taking off, the other teams must be taking their time settling the island. Hopefully this will give us an added edges as they'll have more ai cities to clean up before invading another island.
I like the suggestion of throwing a warrior against an impi sometime soon to 'waste' the zulu GA. The warrior might need a spear escort so he can survive his first turn on shore.
Operation Lahore, as suggested by gator sounds good. We really need to look at getting our FP soon so we can pickup production and india looks like such a nice place. :)

leif erikson

May 25, 2005, 09:22 PM

We really need to look at getting our FP soon so we can pickup production and india looks like such a nice place. :)
Ah, the great thing about civ. :D If you wish to have your neighbors land, you simply need to build an army and take it! :mischief:

DJMGator13

May 26, 2005, 06:39 AM

Based on what we can see of the world map, it looks like we may be the center of ring of islands. That means our palace should stay in the center and we probably want our FP on the first island we take over.

BTW, the slow burn seems to be associated with our post count this game and not our early curve.

EDIT(Instead of a cheesy double post): Looks like Team Bede has lost land. Their score is going down.

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 09:01 AM

750BC, turn 0:
Sogut has 10 shields in the box.. makes 10 shields per turn and we are 3 turns away from literature.. means we can exactly finish library there in same turn as literature comes in if I switch the build order from the big picture. I switch the build to temple as a prebuild.

We think our rcp9 cities should be producing cats instead of units, so they dont need barracks (only artillery unit we want to produce in barrack towns is the korean UU in C3C since it has lethal bombard, and can produce leaders when it has promoted to elite)

loose 1 shield when switching Adana. switch Axexmanika and Kafa.
Konya remains on barracks as a prebuild for library since it would loose too many shields from switching.

MM uskadar to complete the cat in 1 turn instead of 2.

Sinop switches to temple from chariot.. library prebuild

hmm.. the first ring area looks too much fortified to me.. good chance that the AIs will start landing units elsewhere instead.
I move around units.. result is Aydin is left with just a regular warrior as defender.. with iron and horses inside its border it should be a flashing target to the AIs now.

IBT:
zulus drop of a regular warrior nex to Aydin

Iznik: catapult -> temple (library prebuild)
Uskudar: Catapult -> chariot
Adana: cat -> cat
Davidople: worker -> worker

730BC, turn 1:
2 cats redline the landed warrior
elite chariot flawlessly kills warrior, but no leader
lower sci to 50%

IBT:
Aydin: Galley -> temple (library prebuild)

710BC, turn 2:
not much.. moving gally towards sogut

IBT:
zulu galley attacks our galley.. our galley loose 1 hp but wins

literature comes in.. I click the big picture.. set research to warrior code.. then go to f1 screen and swap the temple build in sogut to library

Sogut: Library -> chariot
Izmit: sword -> library

690BC, turn 3:

I whip the library in Sinop (so it can bring in the grass cow faster)
I also whip library in Konya

sci at 40% gives warrior code in 4.. will be even lower next turn
raise lux to 10%

found Emanopidu -> cat

bring the galley into safety in Sogut

I swap the barracks build in Bursa to library.. will finish in 1 turn

IBT:
india drops off 2 warriors next to Aydin

Bursa: Library -> cat
Konya: Library -> cat
Sinop: Library -> chariot

Get palace expansion

670BC, turn 4:

2 of 4 cats hit warriors.. both has 2 hp left
elite chariot kills warrior.. loose 1 hp.. no leader
kill 2nd warrior with elite spear.. loose 1 hp.. no leader :(

lower sci to 30%

istanbul has high fliprisk, so I decide to swap it to library, and whip it next turn

IBT:
Sogut: chariot -> chariot
Uskudar: chariot -> chariot
Antalya: spear -> chariot

650BC, turn 5:
Whip library in istanbul

I decide to risk sending a single gally with 2 spears for indian iron..

IBT:
zulus drop off an impi and a warrior

Istanbul: library -> chariot

630BC, turn 6:
cats hit 4 out of 4 hits
elite spear kills impi, no leader
elite chariot kills warrior.. no leader

raise lux to 20%

IBT:
wheel -> HBR (50% gives it in 4 turns)

Iznik: Library -> chariot
Edirne: Spear -> chariot
Kafa: catapult -> cat

610BC, turn 7:
galley can only move one tile withoyt running into an indian galley.. so I move one tile.. fortify the galley and unload the spears onto a piece of land the indians cant attack them on next turn no matter what

IBT:
India dont touch our galley

mumble.. Erdine flips to the zulus

590BC, turn 8:
A sword kills the defending impi in Edine, and we take back the town. start a library to get rid of all the flip risk there

lower sci to 40%

IBT:
boat movements

Uskudar: Chariot -> chariot
Aydin: library -> galley

570BC, turn 9:
flawlessly kill archer near Sidon with sword

IBT:
india drops off 2 warriors

Sogut: Temple -> chariot
Iznik: chariot -> chariot
Izmit: Library -> chariot
Sinop: Chariot -> chariot

550BC, turn 10:
cats redline both warriors
elite spear and chariot kills the 2 warriors.. still no leader :(

Our army is strong vs india, average to zulu and weak to persia.

I mainly consentrated on building needed libraries this round..
HBR is due in 1 turn.. we may want to shut research off and build more chariots for upgrade first

Our powergraph is about same as Persia, and almost the same as india and zulus added together.. everyone is still in despotism

I hope next player has more luck getting us a leader for GLib.. thou.. we would be the tech leader now if we could trade with the other AIs.. so building GLib and turn off research might actually slow us down.. if we build it we should keep researching still

Our culture is shaping up nicely now too.. we have the highest cpt of all known civs now.. so fliprisks should get better soon.

A galley with 2 spears is ready to drop off at indian iron in 2 turns.. will be interesting to see if 2 spears is enough.. I had to abort building the other galley to get a library in our highest flip risk town

AlanH

May 26, 2005, 10:19 AM

Great progress Gyathaar. Well done :) I agree we should probably keep on researching even if we do get the Library. It may not be worth holding up HBR, as we don't look like having a lot of spare cash for upgrades, and we seem to be producing a lot of shields.

Tomoyo - played 1000 BC
leif erikson - played 750 BC
Gyathaar - played 550 BC
Gator UP
Nemesis - on deck
AlanH - played 1250 BC

DJMGator13

May 26, 2005, 12:45 PM

Just theorizing without looking at the save.

How soon should we launch on India? If they are weak to us they will be a target for the other AI's as well. So I'm thinking we should move on them quickly. Or do we want to wait a little and steamroll the whole island at one time?

Is it worth slowing research, after HBR comes in, only for the purpose of making some quick gold for upgrades? (I'm not sure how much we have currently.)

Do we think our culture is enough to hold Lahore or should we raze and replace it to limit the flip chance? This will be our beachhead city and may take a few turns just defending against an Indian counterattack.

AlanH

May 26, 2005, 02:00 PM

We should try to be in a position to roll over the Indian island when we start. A continuous offensive seems a better bet. Kill off the initial Indian offensive and then allow them no time to produce a second wave. Chivalry is the deadline. We don't want to see any elephants if possible.

The next significant techs for us are the governments and chivalry. We've eliminated Monarchy because of troop support issues, and in Republic war weariness would be a disaster for us. We know how well Offa used despotism in the last game, and this one should be shorter, so I guess we are not going to revolt in this one. Despotism allows us to pop rush, and with our flood plain economy we should able to do some of that. Since Chivalry is a little way off, we probably can slow research for a turn or three to save for upgrades. In my view we should be aiming to finish this with despotic knights.

Re. razing cities, quite apart from flip issues, assuming Sogut is going to remain our capital, Lahore needs to move 1 tile east to be on radius 3.x, and Bangalore should probably move NW to be at radius 6. So I recommend we take a couple of settlers with us when we march on India.

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 02:08 PM

We may consider revolting to monarchy after we have taken out india.. by this time we should start to get enough cities to support monarchy better.. specially after we get FP up.. they will allow us to cash rush settlers and harbors/barracks/walls on landing sites.. but chivalry should be a better research goal imo..
If we get monarchy from great lib, then we should revolt thou.. but not a tech I would spend beakers researching.. better to get muskets,cannons and sipahi....

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 02:34 PM

How soon should we launch on India? If they are weak to us they will be a target for the other AI's as well. So I'm thinking we should move on them quickly. Or do we want to wait a little and steamroll the whole island at one time?

If another AI declares o them then it would be great imo.. it is very easy to take out 1-2 isolated AI cities compared with cities on an AIs home continent (easier to reinforce).. plus they would be killing eachother units for us.
We want to steamroll IMO.. we want to just rush though and take out all their cities, ignore as many of their land units as possible... all the land units will poof when we capture their last city, and untill then the support cost for them will make the AI start loosing buildings and units

AlanH

May 26, 2005, 03:13 PM

As we're not religious, and this game ought to last a relatively short time, do you think we'll get enough pay-back for the time spent in a revolution?

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 03:25 PM

As we're not religious, and this game ought to last a relatively short time, do you think we'll get enough pay-back for the time spent in a revolution?
I dont know.. lets discuss it if we get the tech :p
Btw.. what free tech will we get when we get into middle ages? if not monotheism we should prolly skip chivalry and go directly for military tradition

AlanH

May 26, 2005, 03:32 PM

Monotheism.

[EDIT] Thinking about the order of destruction of civs, India is obviously high priority, in order to eliminate them before Chivalry. But we also need to get rid of the Vikings early to remove the threat of Berserks and amphibious attacks on our coastal cities. Other than that, we don't want Persia to get too big. If we ever manage to get a Leader and build the Library then we also need to make sure we know at least two live and up to date civs at any point.

leif erikson

May 26, 2005, 03:40 PM

Good discussion. :goodjob:

If another AI declares o them then it would be great imo.. it is very easy to take out 1-2 isolated AI cities compared with cities on an AIs home continent (easier to reinforce).. plus they would be killing eachother units for us.
How long should we wait for this to happen, if it does? India has 7 cities and I'm sure they have a good contingent defending Delhi. Perhaps the Spears on thier iron will pull a few out? To take them down, average 4 or 5 units per city, or more in Deity? Around 30 units, plus we need to leave some home for defense and MP.

Currently we have 10 Spears, 8 Swords, 7 Chariots, 5 Cats and 1 Galley for 16 cities. If we can gather enough Galleys, we could taKe out several coastal cities in the first wave.

I think if we want to continue research, we should get HBR soon. However, doesn't slowing research have the advantage of available cash for when we meet the Americans and Vikings, who know the others so ought to have the same techs. The price will be lower with each civ we know. That will also provide cash for upgrades so we can get some nice northern real estate.

I agree we need to take some settlers with us, at least for Lahore and Bangalore. If we are fortunate enough to get our FP in Indian territory, we should make another close build to take advantage of it, so that means more settlers.

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 05:47 PM

How long should we wait for this to happen, if it does? India has 7 cities and I'm sure they have a good contingent defending Delhi. Perhaps the Spears on thier iron will pull a few out? To take them down, average 4 or 5 units per city, or more in Deity? Around 30 units, plus we need to leave some home for defense and MP.

Once we have enough we should attack.. what is enough.. well.. the spears might lure out some units out of the cities...
I expect 2-3 defenders in each city after we have attackable units on their lands...
India is weak.. killing them off should no more hard that killing off an average emperor AI.. except we cant make peace if we start to get in trouble.. so its better to start with an overwhelming force than having too few units. What is too few? hard to say.. they are weak vs us.. and we are not that strong military... I have seen no vetaran indian units, so they prolly havent built any barracks yet... I saw 2 indian swords chasing the 2 spears when dropped them ashore for 2 turns.

This would be an easy game if it was just AWD... we simply cant loose this game if we play it safe.. the part that makes the game hard is we cant play 100% safe due to the competition, so we may have to rush things and take risks if we want to win..

DJMGator13

May 26, 2005, 08:22 PM

Summary: I may have jumped the gun on attacking IND, but we were getting no action on our island and I didn't feel we should just sit back. I have not been able to capture Lahore but we have a decent force there now, but it needs more horses to accomplish the task. I was slowly wearing them down until 410BC when 3 units redlined and 1 died. My guess is atleast 3 spears, 2 swords and possibly a horse in Lahore, but a galley just left so it may have taken some of those units. Basically trade units with IND, which is not good.

Preturn - 550BC
after studying map for awhile, I'm finally ready to play

we have 7 chariots and will learn HBR next turn, I also have enough gold to upgrade all 7 chariots (although I may hold off on the elite ones)

IBT - watch the galleys sail - no landings
we learn HBR set to CURR (banking on a leader for the Library)

Turn 1 - 530BC
all our chariot builds automatically changed to horses
upgrade 6 of the 7 chariots to horses - we are now strong to ZUL but remain weal to PER
bump sci up to 50% for CURR in 13 turns at +7gpt

rush a galley in Davidiople (needed 18 shields) because IND is blocking off our water access to Lahore and our galley from Sogut is about to be cut off
Iron galley is 1 tile short of the mountain

IBT - IND galleys were not blockading, they just ran out of moves / PER lands a Immortal by Konya
Davidiople galley => cat

Turn 2 - 510BC
one of our new horsey takes out that lost immortal
drop off our 2 iron spears

IBT - no attack on our spears
Sogut galley => galley
Bursa cat => barrack (at 2spt)

Turn 3 - 490BC
Good news - we are now average to PER and ZUL
one spear pillages the iron the other forts
I'm bringing the galley back home by completing the counter clockwise circle, but this may give us contact with America

IBT - an IND settler pair moves into Lahore and 2 galleys sail away / no landings / no attack on the spears
Sogut grows and riots
Uskudar horse => horse
Aydin galley => horse
Antalya horse => horse
Sinop spear => horse (I change the build a few turns ago and forgot to change it back to a horse last turn)

Turn 4 - 470BC
lux to 20% for Sogut, change build to a settler
we're at break even so I leave sci at 50%

we're not getting enough action to leader farm and since we have 8 horses and 8 swords and I have 3 galleys that can reach Lahore I load them up - the rushed galley from Davidiople was able to drop off 2 groups - so we have 2 spears and 4 horses landed this turn and I have 2 more spears and 4 cats reloaded for drop off next turn

IBT - IND tries to reinforce Lahore but they can't reach it this turn & we kill an archer attacking our iron spears
Iznik horse => horse
Uskudar riots - need another mp there
Izmit horse => horse

ZUL are building the Gret Wall (they have CONST) - why almost all their cities have walls

Turn 5 - 450BC

Battle for Lahore (there are 2 spears and 2 swords that will reinforce it if I don't take it this turn)
vHorse vrs vSpear - we redline and retreat inflict 1hp
vHorse vrs rSpear - we win, down 1hp
vHorse vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly
vHorse vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat inflict 1 hp
another rSpear pops to the top - that means there are atleast 3 spears in the city and 4 more units will enter it next turn - and I'm out of attack troops

I land the 4 cats, 3 more spears, another horse and our eChariot

IBT - we catch a break from the AI, the 4 units outside Lahore head back North away from the city / we lose one of our Iron Spears (fortified on a mt) to a archer / no landings
Sogut settler = horse
Sinop riots - stupid stupid stupid - I moved the mp after I checked the cities - my bad
Alexmanika cat => cat

Turn 6 - 430BC
reinforce our eastern front due to a PER galley

Battle for Lahore (cont)
2 of 4 cats hit -1hp on 2 vSpears
vHorse vrs rSpear - we die flawlessly and they promo
vHorse vrs vSpear - we die but redline the spear
vHorse vrs rSpear - we win down 2 hp
3/4 vHorse vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly and promo to 4/5
wounded spear on top - atleast 3 spears still in city
I land 2 more horses and a cat and take away 2 injured horses

check cities for happiness

IBT - we kill an archer before our Iron Spear dies to a horse / no landings

Turn 7 - 410BC
IND must be trading for horses

Lahore again
3 of 5 cats hit - destroy temple and take 1hp off 2 vSpears
vHorse vrs 3/4 vSpear - we redline, retreat inflict 1hp
vHorse vrs 3/4 vSpear - we die inflict 1hp
4/5eHorse vrs 3/4 vSpear - we redline retreat inflict 1hp
eChariot vrs 2/4 vSpear - we redline but win - no promo
can only land 1 horse and 1 cat, load 2 swords for next turn and remove 2 injured horses

IBT - IND lands a warrior S of Davidiople / no other landings

Turn 8 - 390BC
kill the IND warrior
Throw stones at Lahore this turn - 2 of 6 hit, no other attack

IBT - IND reinforces Lahore with aleast 1 sword, then a empty galley enters it / no landings
Sogut horse => horse
Iznik horse => horse
Aydin horse => horse

Turn 9 - 370BC
land 4 horses and the chariot back at Lahore, then throw some rocks and destroy the harbor

IBT - 3 PER galleys head NW / another sword enters Lahore and the galley leaves hopefully with some troops in it
Izmit horse => horse
Emanopidu library => barracks (2spt)

Turn 10 - 350BC
only 1 of 6 cats hit so I decide not to attack this turn - there is potentially 3 spears and 2 swords in Lahore depending on if the galley left empty and there is a horse outside of it

I have 5 spears, 6 cats, 6 horses, 2 swords and a chariot (a few of these are down a hp) outside of Lahore
We can get a few more horses there this turn but I don't think we should continue the attack this turn, which is why I stopped here

Notes to next player
1) Play better than I did
2) Galleys can load in Davidiople move E unload reenter the city, load and unload again
3) Galleys can load in Aydin and unload - there is a horse within the loading area of both cities that can be added to the stack this turn
4) Check cities before ending this turn
5) The IND galley south of Adana has not unloaded but might be empty
6) not sure where the PER galleys are headed, they could have already dropped off on us so I'm thinking they may be headed to IND

Gyathaar

May 26, 2005, 08:32 PM

Btw.. check out our culture graph :lol:

For next player.. make sure you fix Aydin.. it is left in unhappy state and will riot.

DJMGator13

May 26, 2005, 09:05 PM

I was trying to rush the last turn so I could post it tonight. You basically have the whole preturn to play.

TheNemesis666

May 27, 2005, 02:06 AM

1) Play better than I did

I won't accept this :) , you've acted where required, our actual war with india is now underway. Sure we didn't crush lahore like we hoped but I don't think it was through any fault of yours. Well played.

Now, I got it and think I have to:
fix Aydin
capture (or raze?) Lahore
continue offensive on India
defend our homeland
and anything else I add to this list after checking the save

Anyone have anything else they want me to do? I'll wait till tomorrow morning before playing, to allow response time from the team.

AlanH

May 27, 2005, 02:13 AM

Good work Gator. You've worn down India's forces, and we're on the first steps towards world domination. :D

Tomoyo - played 1000 BC
leif erikson - played 750 BC
Gyathaar - played 550 BC
Gator - played 350 BC
Nemesis UP
AlanH - on deck

@Nemesis. That's a good list. I suggest we raze Lahore and rebuild it one tile to the east, adding to our radius 3.x ring. Then onwards to Bangalore, which should also be razed and rebuilt. So don't forget to build a couple of settlers at some point.

leif erikson

May 27, 2005, 05:58 AM

Well, looks like things are underway! Nice work Gator. :goodjob: Just need to break the crust over there and eat up some units.

@Nemesis - Good list, some small things.

Kafa has a Vet Warrior that could be upgraded in case the Persians act up. You'd have to move him to Edirne as there is no Barracks in Kafa. There are also Warriors in Konya, Uskudar, Adana, Iznik and Emanopidu.

We are building entirely Horsemen and Catapults. I see some Vet Indian units, would some Swords help break through Lahore? :hmm:

There is a settler in the stack near Lahore. To keep our rings at 3 and 6, we can replace Lahore and Bangalore with 3 cities. As Alan said, one cities 3 NW of Sogut, another 1 NW of Bangalore and a third 2 NE of Bangalore. I was going to post a screenine from CA2, but it won't allow placing planned towns in enemy territory. So much for "dreaming" of conquest. :mischief:

Gyathaar

May 27, 2005, 06:07 AM

Here are the remaining ring 3,6 and 9 in indian and zulu territories:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/XT7_550BC.JPG

DJMGator13

May 27, 2005, 06:32 AM

PER only landed 1 immortal during my turns and IND only landed 1 warrior which surprised me. I think if you wait a turn to attack you can move 2 more horses this turn, then play it by ear. When 5 of 6 cat shots missed I felt it was not good to push the battle this turn. Currently our stack has not been counterattacked at all.

@Nemesis - list looks good. Unless PER unloads all 3 galleys in 1 spot I think our eastern coast is OK, west coast is a little thin because I have moved alot of them to Lahore. Just don't rush the battle, I was also hoping we would be able to generate a Leader out of this action. Good luck.

I may be without a computer for most of the weekend, so don't be surprised if you don't hear from me.

WillowBrook

May 27, 2005, 08:07 AM

Looking good, folks!

Good luck, Nemesis - may the RNG grant us a great leader!

leif erikson

May 27, 2005, 11:32 AM

Here are the remaining ring 3,6 and 9 in indian and zulu territories
What is the matter with the AI. Why didn't they build more cities on our 3, 6 or 9 rings. Only Zimbabwe? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck Nemesis. Now you can *really* wipe out a civ!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

TheNemesis666

May 27, 2005, 08:08 PM

ok, i'm at turn 5 and might save and wait for a response.
the americans have just sailed a galley up from the south, they're up myst, philo, code and constr. they're down lit and currency.
we're researching philo at the moment with 3t to go. (1t invested so far)
do we want he ai to get lit yet or will ge wait a bit to give us more time to get a great leader?

Tomoyo

May 27, 2005, 08:11 PM

I don't really know, but I'm leaning towards not trading lit. Are we allowed to open diplo screens with already met civs? Do they have lit?

TheNemesis666

May 27, 2005, 08:19 PM

I don't really know, but I'm leaning towards not trading lit. Are we allowed to open diplo screens with already met civs? Do they have lit?

I'm pretty sure someone asked this in the maint. thread and MB ok'd it. I'll go check. But CA2 tells me none of the ai we've met have lit and persia are the only ones(other than us) with currency.

EDIT: Yeah, post 30 in the maint. thread asks if we can talk to people we are at war with for the information purposes. In Post 31 MB ok's it.
Also, if persia have poly then they're in the Middle Ages, all others (zulu, india and america) still need at least currency.

leif erikson

May 27, 2005, 09:17 PM

Yes, you can open the diplo screens, you just can't make peace. If Persia is in the Middle Ages, it means the others will not be far behind. We have been fairly successful at research thus far. The question I have is what trades are available? :mischief:

If we traded Lit and Currency to America, what do we get in return. Will those 2 techs, plus whatever gold we have, get us into the Middle Ages (prolly not)? Trading Currency will put America in the MA. :hmm:

imho, I think trading Lit would be OK at this point. If the AI's in the MA, then it won't be useful to them much longer and it becomes more useful to us if we capture it. But Gyathaar, Tomoyo and Alan have more experience than I. ;)

I think it is a tough call. :crazyeye:

EDIT - It might help if you post the save as an attachment so we can have a look (i.e. You don't need to post it to the server). :D

Gyathaar

May 27, 2005, 11:22 PM

Are any wonders currently under construction?
If there are no risk of wonder cascades, then trade away literature (that is.. the same wonder is not under construction by 2 AIs).

Just make sure we get Americas world map.. that is more important IMO than getting techs. We can research techs in just a few turns each, but there is no other way to get maps of the interial lands of america (and prolly vikings too).

If we do trade for techs, then consider getting contact with vikings too, so we can trade literature and currency to them too before it is traded around.

Seeing the save would be helpful ofcourse :)

AlanH

May 28, 2005, 02:48 AM

I don't see any point in holding back on techs. Someone is going to build the Great Library sometime. We might get lucky and build it with a Leader, but let's not bank on it. If we don't trade Literature to America, someone else will. We only have one opportunity to trade with each civ. That's two more trades, and we have to make the most of each one.

As Gyathaar says, if we can get contact with the Vikings now we may be able to do a bit of wheeling'n'dealing, but I don't have a feel for what the other civs have.

Don't post the save to the SGOTM submissions server, as you currently have a contact at peace and the alarm bells will ring. But posting here would be helpful.

TheNemesis666

May 28, 2005, 03:15 AM

just checked after getting home, but i'm about to go out straight away, i'll finish my turns tomorrow morning.
From memory there are no wonders currently in progress, I remember having a look at f7 after zulu finished the great wall.
I think for currency i could get everything the americans had except construction. Throwing in literature let me include construction.
Um :blush: I can't remember out how to post the save here. I've done it in normal succession games i've played here but can't figure out how i did. Haven't had a good look as should actually be getting changed and ready to go. Damn my civ addiction. :D

EDIT: OMG, theres a manage attachments button!!! there also needs to be a "blushing even worse" smiley. :)

oh and my rought draft turn log so far:

Preturn - 350BC
load 2 horse onto galley in Aydin and drop them of at Lahore
move v.warrior from Konya to Uskudar and upgrade
move v.sword from uskudar to konya

IT
another persian galley enters our water, the others continue around past
IND galley passes through Lahore and continues on
IND horse @ Lahore moves away to the NE

Turn 1 - 330BC
Uskudar horse->horse
istanbul horse->horse
adana cat->cat

3 cats hit spears, 3 cats miss @ Lahore
Lahore appears to have at least 2 v.spears 3/4 and 1 r.spear 2/3
v.horse vs v.spear3/4, wins taking 1hp
v.horse vs v.spear3/4, wins losing 3hp
v.horse vs r.spear2/3, wins losing 3hp
We raze Lahore

given gators observations there may be 2 swords on the IND galley near Davidiople
move settler, 2 e.spears, 2 v.swords, 3 v.horse towards ring 3 site
the rest stay to cover the cats

upgrade v.warrior from kafa at edirne
moving galleys from Aydin to Sogut

IT
Zulu galley coming for us
Indian horse rides up to our settler stack

Turn 2 - 310BC
Sogut horse->settler
Sinop horse->sword

@old lahore: v.horse vs v.horse, wins flawless
settler stack is in position to settle next turn
galleys arrive in sogut and ship a horse to cat stack

upgrade v.warrior at uskudar

IT
ouch india strikes back
we kill a v.horse flawlessly with our e.spear
we lose an e.spear to a v.archer
we kill a v.sword with our e.spear taking 2hp
we lose a v.sword to a r.sword (now 1/3)
we lose a v.sword to a r.sword (now 2/3)

persia drop off 4 immortals at Sogut

Turn 3 - 290BC
Iznik horse->sword
antalya horse->sword
move r.warrior from iznik to sogut and upgrade to sword
move e.spear from to sogut
move sword from uskudar to iznik

@Sogut
cat bombards an immortal for 1hp
v.horse retreats after taking 2hp of an immortal
v.horse dies flawless against an immortal
e.horse kills immortal and loses 2hp in return

Ankara founded in India (set to walls for now, change if you want)

@Ankara
v.horse takes archer hit and redlines vs v.spear dealing 0hp
v.horse redlines vs v.spear dealing 2hp
v.horse redlines vs r.spear dealing 1hp
v.horse kills r.spear2/3 flawless
v.horse dies attacking v.spear, does 1hp but promotes spear
v.horse dies attacking e.spear, does 0hp
grr, i wanted to expose those dmg swords to take them out, i now only have injured horses with movement left.

drop science back to 40%, keeping currency at 1t

IT
@Ankara
injured indians retreat
ind v.archer dies attacking our spear
ind v.archer stops just outside Ankara

@Sogut
injured immortal moves se
immortal attacks sogut, takes cat hit and dies vs e.spear, dealing 1hp
immortal attacks sogut and kills e.spear
persia drop off another immortal

@Alexmanka
persian r.spear moves out of sidon towards us

Turn 4 - 270BC
uskudar riots (sorry, i stole one of the mp's last turn and didn't fix)
aydin horse->sword

@sogut
redline a v.horse killing the wounded immortal that moved
cat bombard on new immortal fails
v.horse retreats dealing only 1hp to the new v.immortal
v.horse dies attacking v.immortal3/4 without hurting him (fortunately the immortals had switched so no promotion)
v.sword from iznik kills v.immortal3/4 taking 2hp
r.sword vs v.immortal3/4 dies flawlessly and promotes immortal (we had slightly better chances attack so i thought i'd risk it)

@Alexmanka
block the spear with a couple of swords
bombard spear for 1hp to send him home

IT
persia drop what i think is the last immortal for now at sogut
e.immortal4/5 attacks v.sword2/4 at sogut and wins taking 1hp
indian horse takes cat hit and dies attacking our e.spear (dealing 2hp)
american galley comes up out of the south
Zulu complete the great wall in Zimbabwe

Turn 5 - 250BC
sogut sword-sword
edirne library->horse
konya cat->cat

@sogut
cat bombards new immortal for 1hp
v.horse vs v.immortal3/4, wins taking 1hp
v.sword vs e.immortal3/5, wins taking 1hp
the immortals are gone for now.

move warrior out of adana to uskudar for upgrading

ok, we know the americans, will save and check for suggestions

bring sci back to 40% and stay at 3t

---------------------

now i really have to go, i'm getting in trouble. :sad:

Gyathaar

May 28, 2005, 03:45 AM

checked save..
no wonders are under construction.. (noone has monarchy,literature or feudalism in other words, except perhaps vikings)

Give Currency, literature, WM and 21 gold to america for contact with vikings, WM, mystisism, construction and philosophy (everything they have but CoL)

then trade whatever possible to vikings for polytheism and Code of Law (and their WM if they throw it in)

(Give Ankara the lamb tile btw.. Emanpoidu can work a mined grass instead, and dont forget to put Sogut back to work the 3rd lamb tile)

I assume we get monotheism on area change? if so start research on feudalism for the MDI unit.

If we get WM from vikings.. dont forget to sell the updated map back to america again
Then we have to decide if we want knights, or if we go directly for sipahi.

Of yeah.. our military is strong vs America :goodjob:
I assume this can only mean they are at war with someone.. most likely vikings since we havent seen any american or viking boats untill now

AlanH

May 28, 2005, 05:21 AM

I would minimise what we trade with America first, focus on getting Viking contact to reduce the cost of the available techs. America will give us CoL + Viking contact + WMap for our map + Currency + 13 gold. This is precise market value, so it means we haven't given anything away. There's then scope for trading with both the Vikings and America and techs known to both will be cheaper. Literature will buy us more from one or both of them, and it's possible that the Vikings may not know CoL - it's an expensive tech - so we may be able to trade CoL with them as well. I haven't done the trade, of course, so I have no idea what may actually be possible. I'm just looking at maximising this last trading opportunity.

[EDIT] If we are able to trade to the Middle Ages in this round, do we get Mono immediately, before end of turn? If so we may be able to trade that as well.

Gyathaar

May 28, 2005, 06:05 AM

we get the free tech immediately yes.

and I agree on the trade alan said.. doing that will most likely lower cost on mystisism and philosophy, so we get better value that way.

However I think it would be better to trade literature to america afterwards before trading with vikings.. polytheism is quite expensive, and we may need both currency and literature to get it (since we are not allowed to pay gpt in the deals)

Edit: With the intermediate save our score curve is starting to bend upwards again :goodjob:

WillowBrook

May 28, 2005, 10:34 AM

Keep up the good work, guys!

I finally have internet in my apartment, so I can look at this more frequently than occassional quick checks at work. I haven't looked at the save (and have plans for the rest of the day), or I'd throw in my two-cents on this dicussion.

:)

AlanH

May 28, 2005, 10:45 AM

However I think it would be better to trade literature to america afterwards before trading with vikings

The rule is "You must declare war on each Civilisation by the end of the turn you make that contact." We don't have to declare war before closing the diplo screen the first time.

There's no harm in checking what the Vikings have after we do the first trade with America and before we do anything else. As long as we declare on both America and the Vikings before end of turn we can and should bounce between them as often as we like during this turn in order to determine the best possible sequence of deals.

[EDIT] Hi WillowBrrok. Sounds like you've moved into your new apartment, then. Happy new home :D

Gyathaar

May 28, 2005, 01:38 PM

The rule is "You must declare war on each Civilisation by the end of the turn you make that contact." We don't have to declare war before closing the diplo screen the first time.

There's no harm in checking what the Vikings have after we do the first trade with America and before we do anything else. As long as we declare on both America and the Vikings before end of turn we can and should bounce between them as often as we like during this turn in order to determine the best possible sequence of deals.

[EDIT] Hi WillowBrrok. Sounds like you've moved into your new apartment, then. Happy new home :D
The point is.. as long as we dont get mystisism from America, then we dont know if Vikings has polytheism or not, and we wont know if just literature is enough to get polytheism or not.

I would estimate that if vikings has all the other techs (all the other techs but literature and currency), then there is a 95% chance they have polytheism too... in this case we have to give up literature no matter what to be able to get polytheism.. either to vikings or america.

Worst case if we trade currency to vikings for philosophy and mystisism: vikings have pylotheism, but literature is not enough value to get it.. we keep monopoly tech but have to research polytheism. (If we traded pilosophy and mystisism from america then we had both currency and literature to bargain with.)

If Vikings are behind in techs, then things ofcourse change.. then I would definately trade them currency/whatever they lack for mystisism first to see if they have polytheism.

But if they are not behind other techs, then we have to give up litarature no matter what to get polytheism, so we may as well give it to both america and vikings to get as much trade value/gold as possible for it

AlanH

May 28, 2005, 02:11 PM

But we'll also have CoL. I'd say there's a good chance that's tradeable to Vikings.

Gyathaar

May 28, 2005, 02:35 PM

If they lack CoL, then yes.. but I doubt it it (if they lack CoL then they prolly lack construction aswell)

On another note.. seems like Team Darkness has run into trouble too.. too bad, they were doing well on the score curve untill now.

AlanH

May 28, 2005, 05:35 PM

Yes, it looks like Darkness have stopped in their tracks, this is a dangerous game.

We could still hit trouble ourselves if we don't keep up a strong home defence force. Once we declare on America and the Vikings we may double the number of civs dropping troops off on our shores. Let's hope we're right in suspecting that America and the Vikings are fighting as that'll keep them off our case.

TheNemesis666

May 28, 2005, 10:15 PM

All done and we now know everyone and are at war with them all. Haven't seen anything from America or Vikings, yet.

Preturn - 350BC
load 2 horse onto galley in Aydin and drop them of at Lahore
move v.warrior from Konya to Uskudar and upgrade
move v.sword from uskudar to konya

IT
another persian galley enters our water, the others continue around past
IND galley passes through Lahore and continues on
IND horse @ Lahore moves away to the NE

Turn 1 - 330BC
Uskudar horse->horse
istanbul horse->horse
adana cat->cat

3 cats hit spears, 3 cats miss @ Lahore
Lahore appears to have at least 2 v.spears 3/4 and 1 r.spear 2/3
v.horse vs v.spear3/4, wins taking 1hp
v.horse vs v.spear3/4, wins losing 3hp
v.horse vs r.spear2/3, wins losing 3hp
We raze Lahore

given gators observations there may be 2 swords on the IND galley near Davidiople
move settler, 2 e.spears, 2 v.swords, 3 v.horse towards ring 3 site
the rest stay to cover the cats

upgrade v.warrior from kafa at edirne
moving galleys from Aydin to Sogut

IT
Zulu galley coming for us
Indian horse rides up to our settler stack

Turn 2 - 310BC
Sogut horse->settler
Sinop horse->sword

@old lahore: v.horse vs v.horse, wins flawless
settler stack is in position to settle next turn
galleys arrive in sogut and ship a horse to cat stack

upgrade v.warrior at uskudar

IT
ouch india strikes back
we kill a v.horse flawlessly with our e.spear
we lose an e.spear to a v.archer
we kill a v.sword with our e.spear taking 2hp
we lose a v.sword to a r.sword (now 1/3)
we lose a v.sword to a r.sword (now 2/3)

persia drop off 4 immortals at Sogut

Turn 3 - 290BC
Iznik horse->sword
antalya horse->sword
move r.warrior from iznik to sogut and upgrade to sword
move e.spear from to sogut
move sword from uskudar to iznik

@Sogut
cat bombards an immortal for 1hp
v.horse retreats after taking 2hp of an immortal
v.horse dies flawless against an immortal
e.horse kills immortal and loses 2hp in return

Ankara founded in India (set to walls for now, change if you want)

@Ankara
v.horse takes archer hit and redlines vs v.spear dealing 0hp
v.horse redlines vs v.spear dealing 2hp
v.horse redlines vs r.spear dealing 1hp
v.horse kills r.spear2/3 flawless
v.horse dies attacking v.spear, does 1hp but promotes spear
v.horse dies attacking e.spear, does 0hp
grr, i wanted to expose those dmg swords to take them out, i now only have injured horses with movement left.

drop science back to 40%, keeping currency at 1t

IT
@Ankara
injured indians retreat
ind v.archer dies attacking our spear
ind v.archer stops just outside Ankara

@Sogut
injured immortal moves se
immortal attacks sogut, takes cat hit and dies vs e.spear, dealing 1hp
immortal attacks sogut and kills e.spear
persia drop off another immortal

@Alexmanka
persian r.spear moves out of sidon towards us

Turn 4 - 270BC
uskudar riots (sorry, i stole one of the mp's last turn and didn't fix)
aydin horse->sword

@sogut
redline a v.horse killing the wounded immortal that moved
cat bombard on new immortal fails
v.horse retreats dealing only 1hp to the new v.immortal
v.horse dies attacking v.immortal3/4 without hurting him (fortunately the immortals had switched so no promotion)
v.sword from iznik kills v.immortal3/4 taking 2hp
r.sword vs v.immortal3/4 dies flawlessly and promotes immortal (we had slightly better chances attack so i thought i'd risk it)

@Alexmanka
block the spear with a couple of swords
bombard spear for 1hp to send him home

IT
persia drop what i think is the last immortal for now at sogut
e.immortal4/5 attacks v.sword2/4 at sogut and wins taking 1hp
indian horse takes cat hit and dies attacking our e.spear (dealing 2hp)
american galley comes up out of the south
Zulu complete the great wall in Zimbabwe

Turn 5 - 250BC
sogut sword-sword
edirne library->horse
konya cat->cat

@sogut
cat bombards new immortal for 1hp
v.horse vs v.immortal3/4, wins taking 1hp
v.sword vs e.immortal3/5, wins taking 1hp
the immortals are gone for now.

move warrior out of adana to uskudar for upgrading

ok, we know the americans, will save and check for suggestions

bring sci back to 40% and stay at 3t

we trade with the Americans:
they give Contact with the Vikings, WM, CoL
we give Currency, WM, 13g

we trade with the Vikings:
they give Mysticism, Construction
we give Currency, WM, 15g

we trade with the Vikings:
they give Polytheism, Philosophy, WM, 7g
(dropping WM gave us another 3g, I decided to leave it on even though I thought we got most of it from America)
we give Literature

we discover Monotheism

we trade with the Americans:
they give 2g
we give WM

I can trade lit or mono to the americans for their last 15 gold.
I can trade mono to vikings for 31 gold.
Neither of these trades seem attractive so I declare on both. (not sure if we wanted to spread our knowledge or not)

MM Emanopidu to move from lamb to BG
MM Ankara to give it the lamb
MM Sogut to start working it's lamb again now the persians are gone

sci50%, lux10%, +4gpt, 10g, Feudalism 23t

move horsie from sogut to izmit for mp duties

IT
indian v.archer takes cat hit and dies attacking e.spear in Ankara
indian r.sword takes cat hit and dies attacking v.spear in Ankara
indian r.sword takes cat hit and kills e.spear, he also promotes 2/4
indian e.spear comes out to cover him
persian r.archer comes up out of sidon with a r.spear

Turn 6 - 230BC
davidiople cat->cat

@Alexmanika
2 cat's bombard r.spear, 1 hits, 1 misses
v.sword vs r.spear, wins 4/4
v.sword vs r.archer, wins 3/4

2 v.swords and a v.horse setup in the jungle north of sigon

@Ankara
6 cat's bombard e.spear, 3 hits
3 v.horse retreat attacking e.spear2/5, dealing no dmg
4th v.horse kills him taking 1hp
v.horse vs v.sword2/4, wins and promotes 5/5

ship a v.horse and an e.horse from Sogut to Ankara

IT
zulu drop an e.impi and a v.archer off north of ankara
Vikings are building The Great Library in Nidaros

Turn 7 - 210BC
sogut sword->settler
izmit horse->horse
kafa cat->cat

@sidon
v.horse vs v.spear, wins, promotes 5/5
v.sword vs r.spear2/3, wins, promotes 3/5
we destroy Sidon and claim 18g

switch uskudar to a settler in 1t (was building horse)

@Ankara
5 cats bombard e.impi, 4 hit
1 cat bombards v.archer, hits (lucky round for the cats!)
e.horse vs v.archer3/4, wins
e.horse vs e.impi1/5, wins

ship a sword and cat to ankara

IT
Persia are building The Great Library in Persepolis
America are building The Great Library in New York

Turn 8 - 190BC
iznik sword->sword
uskudar settler->sword

2 v.spears, 3 v.horse and 7 cat's move into position at bangalore

IT
the persian galley heading south from Tarsus may have troops in it, i'd seen a couple of immortals moving to tarsus
Zulu are building the Great Library in Bapedi

Turn 9 - 170BC
Aydin sword->sword
Sinop sword->sword

@Bangalore
cat bombards kill citizens and harbour, the rest miss

ship 2 more cats to ankara

IT
the Indians are building the Great Library in Dehli

Turn 10 - 150BC
Sogut settler->settler

@Bangalore
cat's destroy barracks and granary

ship settler and cat to Ankara

Firaxis score: 679
Jason score: 773

OK, that's it. I'm not really happy with my part in the indian invasion, the immortals landing kind of held up my reinforcements, actually the killed a few of my reinforcement. This meant the troops in india had to keep healing before attempting anything. I haven't seen anything from the indians in the last few turns so hopefully they're weakened enough that we can crush them quickly.
There is an american galley off our west coast somewhere but I think he's just an explorer.
Our homeland could probably do with more military, I've built a few swords for sitting at home and think there should be a horse every couple of cities, if not every city. It has been appropriately pointed out that this is a competition so we have to find a balance between safety and speed so it may be better to risk a horse in every second.
Most of the persian galleys have stopped by tarsus now so keep an eye on them and maybe shadow them with a horse or two if they all pack together.
All the cats have already bombarded this turn and like last turn destroyed improvements rather than damaging units, i'll let the next player decided if he want's to send in the horsemen vs uninjured defenders. (i don't think we have much choice till we at least get trebs)
As always, feel free to change any of my builds and point out anything I may have done incorrectly or poorly in my turn set.
Ah, also, a settler has just arrived this turn in the area near old sidon, I think the tile i moved him to is the correct one.

EDIT: Ankara is still building walls, given the lack of Indian retaliation recently this can probably be changed.

leif erikson

May 29, 2005, 05:48 AM

That was certainly an exciting turn set!! Always nice when the Persians come to visit with Immortals when your trying to take over someone else. :rolleyes:

Nice work Nemesis. :goodjob: :goodjob: Into the Middle Ages as the tech leader. :D

Do we go for Chivalry or straight for Military Tradition? Can we finish this game with Knights?

Interesting map. The Indians and Zulus have settlements at the tip of the comma. That could be good in that wars may start over them. It will make destroying them harder, although this game is about domination, not conquest. :D

The score curves are very interesting. Looks like some teams have hit a wall. :eek:

Good hunting with the Indians, Alan. :thumbsup: Just keep an eye on your back!! :mischief:

DJMGator13

May 29, 2005, 06:53 AM

Way to go Nemesis :goodjob: I like the way you dispatched Lahore on your 1st turn.

BTW, we are Strong to everyone. I like that.

On the research issue, I think we should hit Chivalry next. Based on our current level of research (61 bpt) it will take us 37 turns to finish Feudalism and Chivalry. It will take us 223 turn to reach MT. I think it is worth the 21 turns to learn Chivalry first, especially if we factor in that we are currently the tech leaders. This means even a capture or completion of the Great Library will not move us any closer to MT currently.

We need some leader luck because it looks like we will need a Wonder induced Golden Age. If we can hit Chivalry first and then kick in a GA we could do some real damage.

DJMGator13

May 29, 2005, 07:22 AM

Double Post

With no immediate threat on the homeland, we could take the 2 horses in Sogut over to Ankara in the preturn, this would give you 11 horses and 1 sword (move him in preturn also) plus the cats to attack Bangalore with next turn.

We don't need the swords in the inland cities. They help with MP duty but they would not be able to counterattack AI troop landings on the first turn.

After the swords finish in Antalya and Iznik we should probably build settlers next, to help with the unhappy nature and lack of growth respectively.

That's about it for my suggestions. Good luck Alan.

Gyathaar

May 29, 2005, 07:26 AM

we may want to build some cheap spears for MP too so we can upgrade all the (non elite) swords when we get feudalism.
Each upgrade will cost 20 gold too I believe.. so we may want to save up a little bit of cash (but better to go full out research and then run low research for a few turns)

Happyness situation will improve when we capture the indian ivory.. which reminds me.. we need harbors on both islands

May want to build harbor and cathedral in Sogut and let it grow to size 12 to speed up research

WillowBrook

May 29, 2005, 07:35 AM

Good job, Nemesis! :goodjob:

That's an interesting map we're dealing with. There's at least one more tile of land peeking through the fog in the NW; I wonder if there's more.

India was definitely a good choice of first victim - I expect our expert warmongers will be able to prevent them from reaching their Golden Age (well, if they make it, they'll be a 1-town desert civ). The wonder of RCP will help production as we complete rings resettling their land. :)

I don't recall - has there been discussion of the use of island blocking to keep the AI off our land? It's an allowed exploit for GOTM's. But some people don't like it. Just a thought.

Gyathaar

May 29, 2005, 07:42 AM

looks like we will have to take over india, zulus, persia and parts of either vikings or america to reach domination

AlanH

May 29, 2005, 08:47 AM

Great progress Nemesis. Nice work on evicting the Persians and winning Lahore. And we leapt to the tech lead. :thumbsup:

Tomoyo - on deck
leif erikson - played 750 BC
Gyathaar - played 550 BC
Gator - played 350 BC
Nemesis - played 150 BC
AlanH UP

@Nemesis: There are no trebuchets in Classic :(

@leif: I think we ought to be able to reach domination with knights if we can get our production really humming.

We'll need to capture or build (Pyramids or Great Wall or Hanging Gardens) plus Great Library if we are going to trigger a Golden Age before Mil Tradition. The Zulus have Pyramids and Great Wall, so we should be able to pick them up during the next round of turn sets. Then we just need a Lucky Leader to build the Library.

@Gator - good suggestions. Next stop Bangalore :ninja:

How many units do we think we need to keep at home? As long as we have new ones being produced each turn we should be able to use work in progress to help defend the island.

@WillowBrook: A wall of workers could be used to defend the island, and I don't think it's disallowed, but it would take over 50 for a complete defence, and we woud reduce our chances of winning Great Leaders. Also remember that the Vikings will be able to break it if we let them get to Invention. We could use some to limit the invasion locations, though, so that fewer troops can defend the landing places we leave available.

I've got the save. I have visitors this weekend, leaving after dinner today, so I hope I can play my set tonight.

leif erikson

May 29, 2005, 06:14 PM

@leif: I think we ought to be able to reach domination with knights if we can get our production really humming.
It is early for this point and we have time to think about it. And it is risky. :mischief: If we believe that we can finish the game with Knights, perhaps we should consider shutting down research after Chivalry. We would then have the gold we would need to cut our iron supply and mass produce horses and reconnect and upgrade to Knights. It would spur our production and allow us the units we would need to surge over nearly any opponent, especially Persia. :D

DJMGator13

May 29, 2005, 07:47 PM

I think that is a good idea, cutting research after Chivalry. If we find ourselves in need of some quick research we could always target the Great Library. This would mean a concerted effort to not build the Library with a leader and save it for capture.

leif erikson

May 29, 2005, 08:08 PM

We should also target Leo's, if it gets built. It makes this strategy even more efficient as the upgrades are half price. :cool:

EDIT - Eliminate stupid sentence, got my games confused. :blush: :blush:

A Leader would do us some good as a cover for Artillery and initial landings, if we can transport it? :lol: :lol: :lol:

DJMGator13

May 29, 2005, 08:18 PM

Transporting an army would be a problem. We would need caravels to transport a 2 man army to a different island. We could pick one civ to use it against and then fill it once we arrive. My choice for that would be to save it for the PER assualt to face the immortals.

But we have to get a leader first :rolleyes: and not have a wonder we need to build. Our first leader may need to be used for the FP in "Old India" to get a second production core going.

EDIT: Second post from Willow and I keep forgetting to say Hi.

Hi Willow :wavey: Hope the new apartment and job is working out nicely.

leif erikson

May 29, 2005, 09:04 PM

But we have to get a leader first :rolleyes: and not have a wonder we need to build. Our first leader may need to be used for the FP in "Old India" to get a second production core going.
I think you are right, the first Leader may be best used to build a FP. :beer:

Kind of forgot about that. :blush: :D :p

AlanH

May 29, 2005, 10:40 PM

Sorry, I missed all that - too busy playing.

Summary:

We've removed all but one Indian city from their main island and contained the Persian Immortals and occasional Zulu landings. We are about to receive our first visitors from Vikings and America.

Next stop Zululand.

We are one turn from Feudalism.

Turn log

150 BC Preflight

Switched Ankara from walls to harbour. MM cities a bit to grow Sogut in 2 turns, complete Izmit's horse in one turn.

Bangalore; Move troops forward ready for assault next turn.
Sword and horse to Ankara. Shuffle MPs to put a warrior in Iznik. Sword to Kafa from Bursa.

Sliders unchanged at 3.6.1 +1 gpt. Feudalism in 16 turns.

IBT
Persian spear and settler land on southern peninsula, Zulu impi and Indian sword land near Ankara.
Izmit horse->horse, Antalya sword->settler

130 BC Turn 1
Build Salonika on southern peminsula, start catapult.

Cat in Ankara bombs Indian sword ->3/4. Vet horse from Ankara kills him faultlessly.

@Bangalore: cats: spear->3/4, spear->3/4, fail, fail, spear->3/4, pop->2, spear->2/3, fail, spear->2/4, fail.
vet horse kills 3/4 spear faultlessly
vet horse retreats from 3/4 spear->2/4
elite horse kills 2/3 spear->3/5, no leader.
elite horse kills 2/4 spear->4/5, no leader
vet horse kills 2/4 spear no damage. captures town with courthouse and a resister and 4 workers.
Sell the courthouse for 10 gold.

Vet horse kills vet Zulu impi, redlines.

Move settler to position at radius 6 from Sogut, 2 tiles north of Ankara. Advance fully fit troops towards Delhi. Ferry redlined horses back to Sogut to heal. Move slaves towards forests near Ankara. Abandon Bangalore.

Sword out of Alexmanica to cover workers next to Persian elite spear/settler outside Salonika. Can't risk attacking the spear with the sword in Salonika in case he loses. Salonika would then be unprotected and can't be reinforced until the road is complete in 2 turns. The Persians will prolly escape on the galley that brought them.

Upgrade warrior in Iznik.

Check F4. India down Monotheism. Zulus up Republic, no iron.. Persia up Republic. The others aren't talking.

IBT Persia loads Immortals at Tarsus, fortifies spear/settler outside Salonika. Indian galley arrives off Salonika, probably a settler aiming for the space that is no more. No landings. No builds.

110 BC Turn 2
Build Mugla NW of where Bangalore was. Start cat.
Advance cat stack towards Delhi. Fortify sword on peninsula to protect workers for one more turn.

IBT Persian galleys move about, but no landings. India reinforces Delhi. Sogut settler->harbour. Iznik sword->settler. Aydin sword->horse. Davidiople cat->cat. Zulus, Persians atart hanging Gardens.

90 BC Turn 3
Vet sword dies vs elite Persian spear->2/5. Vet sword kills 2/5 spear and captures settler.
Settler and three horses across to Indian island. Settler towards next site. Horses to reinforce attack force. Cat stack and troops into forest SW of Delhi.
F4 - confirm all except Vikings have Monarchy. All except America have Republic. All are talking now.
India has built Bangalore again at the norhtern end of the Americal island. Zulus have settled the partially hidden island at the end of the chain.

IBT 3 vet Immortals land near Alexmanika. Indians rearrange troops. Emanopidu barracks->horse

70 BC Turn 4
2 Vet swords and elite sword kill 3 vet Immortals (2 across river).
Cats bombard Delhi. Destroy walls and barracks.
Build Denizli at radius 6 due north of Sogut.

IBT AI moves but no landings. Edirne horse->horse. Sinop sword->horse. India restarts Great Library

50 BC Turn 5

@ Delhi: Cats bomb spear->3/4, spear->2/3, spear->2/3, spear->2/4. Reg. sword on top
Vet horse retreats vs reg sword->2/3
Vet horse kills 2/3 spear->3/4
Elite horse kills 2/3 spear->1/5, no leader.
Elite horse kills 2/4 spear->4/5, no leader
Vet horse kills 2/3 sword, takes Delhi with 3 gold, 5 resisters, granary, courthouse. We'll keep it for now until we get a settler over to replace it.
F4: Persia has Feudalism.

IBT 2 Immortals land near Salonika. Zulu impi and archer land near Mugla. Uskudar sword->horse. Izmit horse->horse. Istanbul horse->horse. Alexmanika cat->cat.

30 BC Turn 6
Cat bombs vet Immortals ->3/4.
Vet horse retreats vs vet Immortals->3/4
Vet horse dies vs 3/4 Immortals->1/4
Vet sword kills 3/4 Immortals->1/4
4/5 sword kills 1/4 Immortals->4/5, no leader.

Vet sword vs impi - impi retreats, no damage to sword.
Vet horse vs archer, retreats ->2/3
4/5 horse kills 2/3 archer->3/5, no leader
3/4 horse kills 1/3 impi, promotes to 3/5

Cats advance on Bombay.

Change a few builds to spears to liberate swords from MP duty.

Slider 4.5.1 to provide gold to upgrade a chariot - we'll never use this elite unit.

IBT Persian galleys move. Zulu horse and impi land newar Ankara. Iznik settler->horse. Aydin horse->horse. Persia starts Sun Tzu. America starts Hanging Gardens.

10 BC Turn 7
Cat bombs impi, misses.
Vet sword retreats reg impi->2/4.
Vet horse kills reg zulu horse->1/4.
3/5 horse kills 1/3 impi->1/5, no leader.

Upgrade chariot.
F4: Zulus have Feudalism.

Slider 4.6.0 for +6 gpt, Feudalism in 5 turns

IBT: Tarsus now has pike defence. Persia lands one Immortals near Salonika, moves some galleys around. Indian galleys move, no landings. Zulus no landings. Bursa sword->horse. Zulus start Sun Tzu.

10 AD Turn 8
Vet sword dies vs 3/3 Immortals->1/3. Vet sword kills him.
Stack assembles outside Bombay.

Slider 3.7.0 for Feudalism in 3 turns, break even.

IBT AI move galleys, no landings. Antalya settler->horse, Sinop spear->spear.

30 AD Turn 9
Sell granary and courthouse in Delhi for 17 gold. Abandon it. Build Bolu 1 tile SW of it, start barracks.

@Bombay: cats bomb spear->3/4, pop->5, spear->2/3, spear->2/3, spear->2/4.
Vet horse kills 2/3 spear->2/4
Elite horse kills 2/3 spear->4/5, no leader
Elite horse kills 2/4 spear, no damage, no leader. Capture city.with ivory, 3 resisters, barracks, granary, courthouse, harbour :)

@Calcutta: vet sword on top.
Vet horse kills vet sword->1/4
Vet horse dies vs reg spear->1/3
Vet horse dies vs reg spear->2.3

Slider 4.6.0 for Feudalism in 2 turns, +6gpt.

IBT American and Viking galleys appear. Persians move, no landings. Indian galleys still cruising. Edirne spear->spear. Davidiople cat->cat.

50 AD Turn 10
@Calcutta:
Vet horse kills 3/3 spear no damage.
4/4 horse kills 3/3 spear->1/4, takes town with barracks + harbour + 2 taxmen.

Slider 9.0.1 with a single scientist in Ankara to complete Feudalism next turn. +55 gpt.

After action Report
We are still strong against everyone, and only really behind by the government techs.

I kept Calcutta and Bombay for their harbours and barracks. Feel free to abandon them if you prefer, but once we remove the last Indian city from their home island I think flip levels will be low. The cats are moving towards that city, and you need to get some more horses or swords there. I was using horses fairly successfully. I haven't moved any more troops to old India because we've enarly finished there, so they'll be needed in Zululand ad for homeland defence.

There's a harbour almost complete in Sogut and then we'll have happier people on the Indian island.

I've been building some cheap spears for MP duties. We have 16 horses and 18 swords now. Next stop Chivalry with the main production horses. Then I agree - turn off research, upgrades all round and maybe use resource disconnect to mass produce horses->knights and take over our end of the spiral galaxy.

AlanH

May 30, 2005, 04:38 AM

After-After-Action Report

Having slept on the situation, here are some updates:

1. Make sure you download the latest version before playing if you downloaded it earlier. It's HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Xteam_SG007_AD0050_02.SAV) - note there's an _02 in its name. I just tidied up an about-to-starve Istanbul I had left last night.

2. Below is a screenshot of the current state of the map.

3. We currently make 55 gpt with research turned off. it will cost 80 gold to upgrade each horse to a knight. It will cost 20 gold to upgrade our Swords to Frankish Axemen (MDIs). We have 16 horses and 18 swords currently, a total upgrade cost of 1640 gold, which will take about 30 turns to collect after we get Chivalry.

4. Chivalry will cost 1280 beakers to research. When the harbours are connected we should be able to run at about 80 beakers per turn, so it will take 16 turns to research Chivalry (maybe less if the AI get there first). Monarchy would take about half that.

5. Once we have Chivalry we can either disconnect iron and build horses for upgrade, or just build knights. Currently we could produce about one knight per turn across all our productive cities, or 3.5 horses per turn. But we couldn't upgrade even one horse per turn.

6. We really need to get a second core running to increase our gpt and production. I did some futile leader fishing during my turns - nine elite victories, I think. If we get a leader then we should use it for a FP in India - Bolu is favourite - and then infill with a tight build around it. In case we don't get a leader, perhaps we should start hand building an FP somewhere with 50% corruption?

7. Should we research, and switch to, another government? I'm even thinking about Republic! We could research it (or Monarchy) in eight turns. We are about to have three luxuries hooked up and our first Zulu town will provide furs, so some markets would help with happiness as well as gpt when we turn off research. Republic would cost us unit support - about 80 gpt currently - but we'd get another gpt from each citizen, so that plus a market multiplier plus a reduction in corruption would probably more than compensate. We'd get more shields to build knights, and our knight wars are likely to be short enough to minimise war weariness. And we'd liberate some of the troops we have doing MP duty to provide stronger active defence or to go to the front. The bad news is we would also incur an unknown anarchy delay, and with our uck it could be eight turns :eek:

Just some thoughts to provoke discussion.

Gyathaar

May 30, 2005, 06:14 AM

Republic in AW with just 3 luxes? no way.. dont even think about it.. the WW,unit costs and lack of MP will cost us much more than the gained gold.

AlanH

May 30, 2005, 06:21 AM

As I pointed out we should have four luxes by the time we get there, and Persia's dyes will make five.

leif erikson

May 30, 2005, 06:27 AM

Excellent job Alan! :goodjob: :goodjob: Nice to wake up to more Orange. :D

Resource cutting doesn't seem like it'll help much given our current situation. Between now and the time we get Chivalry, perhaps 15 to 16 turns, I think we may be able to do some preparation.

I think we may have to begin to try and build a FP in Bolu by hand, although I hate to waste the sheilds should a Leader come along. With increased pop and decreased corruption, I think we can generate enough gold for resource cutting.

In the meantime, I agree, on to Zululand. I am wondering if it might be worth building a city on the distance 3 site, 2 squares SW of Hlobane, as a beachhead. We also have the option of a distance 6 city 2 squares SE of Hlobane which we could run Galleys from Istanbul and use the units the same turn. Then push for Zimbabwe and split the Zulu nation. Given the numbers we can see, the palace should jump to Ulundi, creating more corruption to the north. Then we could work our way north and isolate Ulundi, taking it at the end.

There are 2 problems with this approach. The first is that there is a river around the NW to SW sides of Zimbabwe, between the city and the hill. So we have to get on the other side to take it. The second is that the Zulu cities are connected by harbors, so while we would increase the corruption up north, we won't cut off horses until we take the northern cities.

To attack up north and work south, we would remove Horses from their resources, alhtough they could trade for them as other civs have excess. As we move south, we are attacking less corrupt towns that can produce units faster, especially fast spears, Impis. I think this will require more unts of us than the other way but perhaps not?

Some more food for thought? :crazyeye: