I am in search of two Celtic leaders.

The first is unknown, but he should be viewed as a suitable representative for all celts of the British Isles. This means the leader should not be viewed as a foreignor to Brythonic or Goidelic celts. Due to the fragmented nature of ancient celtic kingdoms and lack of recorded history, attempting to find this leader may be rather ambitious.

The second Celtic leader I seek is more specific, but he has not been documented online. He was the last celtic leader in Kent, and his name was was possibly spelt like Withed. I read about him in a dictionary of British history but no longer have that source. He was a diplomat who rallied his rivals to unite their celtic kingdoms and prevent Saxon expansion. He was succesful in life but his vision died with him.

King Wihtred of Kent has a strikingly similar name, but wasn't he Saxon? His contribution does not appear to match that of individual being sought. Offa, king of Mercia, was also an interesting character who claimed the title, first king of England, but sadly he was also a Saxon. Bah!

Vortigern or Vortigen was a fifth century warlord and was named high king of Britain by some sources.Hope thats been some help to you.Cant help you on the other one sorry I did try.

Cheers :)

Your keyword leads to Wikipedia: Vortigern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortigern) and Matter of Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_of_Britain).

This is a dangerous part of history because it is filled with fables, like navigating a treacherous corel reef, and at the end of it you find the Roman Emperors instead of Celtic Kings. Maybe that is how it was, but there is insufficient detail of what the Britons did between having Roman and Saxon overlords.

Another solution might be to trace the Britons into Scotland and not return to Enlish history until Queen Anne but that is more like a cold muddy mine field than a sunny corel reef :lol:

Vortigern wasn't exactly Celtic, he was Romano-British and would have regarded himself as a representative of the Roman Empire. Assuming he existed, which he may well not have done anyway.

T'is true, but the Celts did not write anything down! :sad:

As for him not existing, if that were the case, who do you suppose preceeded Arturius? :smug:

I am in search of two Celtic leaders.

The first is unknown, but he should be viewed as a suitable representative for all celts of the British Isles. This means the leader should not be viewed as a foreignor to Brythonic or Goidelic celts. Due to the fragmented nature of ancient celtic kingdoms and lack of recorded history, attempting to find this leader may be rather ambitious.


There are a large number that could fit the bill. Do you want British, mainland European, pre-Roman or post-Roman?


The second Celtic leader I seek is more specific, but he has not been documented online. He was the last celtic leader in Kent, and his name was was possibly spelt like Withed. I read about him in a dictionary of British history but no longer have that source. He was a diplomat who rallied his rivals to unite their celtic kingdoms and prevent Saxon expansion. He was succesful in life but his vision died with him.

King Wihtred of Kent has a strikingly similar name, but wasn't he Saxon? His contribution does not appear to match that of individual being sought. Offa, king of Mercia, was also an interesting character who claimed the title, first king of England, but sadly he was also a Saxon. Bah!

I think the one you're looking for may be Gwyrangon, a Kentish rival to Vortigern who opposed the Saxon incursions.
Alternatively it could be Gwrthevyr (AKA- Vortimer), the son of Vortigern who fought the Saxons

There was indeed a Saxon king Wihtred. "Withed" just doesn't sound like a Celtic name to me- it's got "Saxon" written all over it.

Can you list the leaders you had in mind? Then I can look them up on Wikipedia.

Ideally, the Celt would be pre-Roman as it's for Civ and the Romans are a rival. I am willing to compromise though! :)

Have you considered Vitalstitistix?

http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~janl/ts/majestix.gif

Can you list the leaders you had in mind? Then I can look them up on Wikipedia.

Ideally, the Celt would be pre-Roman as it's for Civ and the Romans are a rival. I am willing to compromise though! :)

For a real BSD of the pre-Roman era, Britain throws up Beli Mawr. As ever with that period, he's semi-legendary and may not have actually existed, but he's more plausible than all that Geoffrey of Monmouth tripe.

I'll dig out some others tomorrow.

Have you considered Vitalstitistix?

http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~janl/ts/majestix.gif
Yes, but red hair is quite rare in Great Britain and he's a Frenchie ;)

Seriously though, I am looking for an ancient Briton from the time before the island became infected by overseas rival cultures.

Yes, but red hair is quite rare in Great Britain and he's a Frenchie ;)

Seriously though, I am looking for an ancient Briton from the time before the island became infected by overseas rival cultures.
Err... They were all Celts speaking mutually intelligible languages. Britain has always been infected by overseas rival cultures.;)

How about Caratacus/Arvirargus? He doesn't seem very succesful, but there are several sources claiming he was genuine, and one of them makes him out to be a strong politician. Would you agree?

Err... They were all Celts speaking mutually intelligible languages. Britain has always been infected by overseas rival cultures.;)
Yeah, but there is no evidence of who came from where... so it doesn't matter. For all we know, Britain infected Europe :p

Yeah, but there is no evidence of who came from where... so it doesn't matter. For all we know, Britain infected Europe :p
I think the historians who say that being a 'Celt' somehow became The Fashionable Thing all over Western Europe at one point in prehistory may have a point.:lol:

Here are some other big guns-

Dumnovellaunos- ruler of the Trinovantes, Coritani and Cantii around 20BC- 5AD. This bloke appears to have ben powerful with a wide power-base, going by coin evidence. Pro-Roman and a major power in East/South-East Britain- so he'd be widely known.

Commius- a Belgae ruler of the Atrebates in south Britain, known to Julius Caesar (though his foothold in Britain was shaky).

Caswallon (Cassivelaunos)- another big hitter, ruler of the Catuvellauni circa 50 BC. Supposedly had a standing army of over 4,000 charioteers, and fought the forces of Julius Caesar in the 55BC invasion.


Then in Ireland you've got the long-reigning Conaire Mor, while Pictish Scotland throws up Tharan, Duchil and Deort in the pre-Roman years (they were all long-reigning).

I think the historians who say that being a 'Celt' somehow became The Fashionable Thing all over Western Europe at one point in prehistory may have a point.:lol:
It still does not show who came from where. I heard one argument that claimed the celtic origins lay in migrants from eastern europe. Nobody seems to know.

All we know is that Brittonic Celts (with an alergy to pen & ink) lived in Briton before the Romans came.

I'm convinced that "Celtism" was a cultural shift rather than a migration of a "Celtic" people per se. If they find mitochondrial DNA evidence to contradict that theory then I'll grudgingly buy in, but it looks like there was little change in the genetic make-up of Britain (at least) between the time of the Beaker people and the Belgae/Roman invasion.

It could possibly have been a Norman-style invasion of a very small elite that doesn't cause any real genetic displacements, but they're rare in history.