The question is simple. Most of us have already seen this screenshot :

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/screens.html?page=11

It features a pair of town, named CHEROKEE and AGADE, being controled by a gray civilization.

Cherokee, for the unaware, is a US native tribe. It's also the same of several truly minor towns in the US (6000 souls and less).

Agade, better known as Akkad, is one of the most famous Mesopotamian city-states, a predecessor of Babylon, which gave its name to several elements of ancient fertile crescent culture.

They cannot belogn to the same "standard" civ, unless a war was fought. However, judgign by the screenshot provided at http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/screens.html?page=12 which helpfully give us the minimap of the same game, if such a war was fought, one of the warring nation was obliterated entirely (because we can put a name to every nation besides the gray ones : the orange are mali, the white are english, the yellow are egyptians).

Of note, neither Agade nor Cherokee are capital cities.

Judging by these mini-maps, however, if the gray civ truly won a war, then either it stunted their growth, or else they were fighting a truly pathetic enemy ; they seem to have only 2 more cities than the other nations.

Moreover, who would have won a war against who? If you *really* stretch you could claim Agade was a persian city, but that is *really* stretching things out. So we would have to include two new civs to account for all these cities; and with only eighteen civs, and many already known or suspected thanks to leaderheads, articles mention, etc, there is little room left.

We KNOW the following civs are in :
-America, France, England, Egypt, China, India, Aztecs, Germany, Persia, Mongolia (leaders have been specifically named)
-Rome (specifically seen in the video demo).
-Mali, Japan (seen in several screens, specifically named)
-Incans (mentioned in article)

We have good reasons to believe the following civs are in
-Spain (Madrid is a capital on one screenshot)
-Russia (Moscow is a capital on one screenshot)
-Arabia (Meccah has been seen in one screenshot)

That makes for 17 known civilizations. We know there are only 18 overall. There is no room for two civilizations, one controling Akkad and one controling Cherokee at the start of the game, unless we assume either of our assumption regarding civs already in is wrong. However, Meccah meaning the Arabs seems a far more surefire bet than Agade/Akkad meaning the Babylonians or Cherokee meaning the...who exactly? The Cherokee?

Of note however is that while both Akkad and Cherokee *can* refer to cities, they can also refer to culture or groups. Could the mysterious gray civ be some sort of NPC civilization? I doubt it, personally, but...

What about Greece?

Maybe the "Grey Civ" is a mix or hybrid of Goody Huts and the "Minor Civs idea" on the Forums? Has anyone else noticed some silence on that part of the game :) Greece I'm 99% sure would be the 18th Civ. Also of note, originally they were saying there were 19 civs (whichw as an odd number). Either they kicked a civ out (unlikely IMO) or the 19th civ is this grey civ.

Could be that there are 'neutral tribes' that have one city but cannot build an empire.
I will be very sad if the Iroquois or the Netherlands aren't in, but it looks like at least one of them isn't ...

To answer your question, they could be barbarian civs. If you notice, there is no colour border for Cherokee and Agade whilst Mali, the English and Egyptians ALL have coloured borders. Hope I explained it well enough.

This is all speculation. From your logic, there is no Greece! How can a game about civilizations not have Greece!

On a side not, look at the religion tag next to the city names. LMAO the english with the St. George cross is muslim and the Mali civ is jewish (they were muslim). It will take some time to get used to!

Maybe this is their attempt to include the "minor" civilizations people requested. They were also talking about small Luxembourgish civs completely surrounded by another civ.

There is another possibility: In Civ 1 and 2 (I don't know about three, haven't played it enough) when you got too many cities the game ran out of names for your civilization's cities and your city would be given one of a list of generic names like Naples, or Sydney etc. Agade/Cherokee may just be names given to two of the cities of a civilization because they have already used up their quota of names.
A bit of a boring explanation, but possible.

But, as Oda points out-and if you look at the screen-it is clearly WAAAAYY to early for that kind of thing to be happening. Judging from that screen, it looks like they are somewhere in the Classical Age (so to speak)-at most. I can't say how happy I would be if minor civs were in the game-it would completely make up for the other stuff that I am NOT so happy about!

EDIT: Speaking of which, who would Niani belong to? As they also seem to lack a defined border area-wheras Egypt and England do.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

EDIT: Speaking of which, who would Niani belong to? As they also seem to lack a defined border area-wheras Egypt and England do.

I think Niani is a Mali city. You can see the brown Mali border further towards Agade.

Of course, there is always the possibility that one of the cities was conquered by the civilization of the other.

Yes, Niani is a Mali city.

By the looks of it, Mali is in teh game, so I am very happy with this :D

Babylon is in the game, so stop saying they are "out"! :smug:

On the matter of borders not showing, it has been revealed to us that you do not automatically get cultural borders. It is something you have to work at. So, maybe the grey civ doesn't have much culture?? Dunno.. I'm confoozled on this.

:gripe: Darn those game developers :borg: and their little games, too!! :aargh:

Actually the grey civ's border are there, just VERY hard to see. Look at the places where the grey, white and yellow borders happen to meet on the screenshot with the minimap.

However, I do agree with all those who brought up minor civs. War is a possible explanation, sure...but it would be a strangely suspicious setup. In addition, Greece getting cut and both Cherokee and the Babs making the cut? (Sorry HamBab, but Greece beats out the Babs whichever way you look at it) Highly unlikely.

Until we get further screenshots, I think that yes, the minor civ option is as good an explanation as we can get.

They're probably both in (Greece and Babylonia [and native America, whatever civ it is in the end]). Numbers -especially if said by developers aren't set in stone, me thinks. :) Soren also said there are about 80 buildings, so he may as well say, yes 18 civs when there in fact are 19. As I don't see a way to cut Babylon/Mesopotamia OR Greece, and either Inca or Native America is confirmed by either screenshot or comment in interview, this is the most probable situation, am I wrong?

mitsho

Actually the grey civ's border are there, just VERY hard to see. Look at the places where the grey, white and yellow borders happen to meet on the screenshot with the minimap.

However, I do agree with all those who brought up minor civs. War is a possible explanation, sure...but it would be a strangely suspicious setup. In addition, Greece getting cut and both Cherokee and the Babs making the cut? (Sorry HamBab, but Greece beats out the Babs whichever way you look at it) Highly unlikely.

Until we get further screenshots, I think that yes, the minor civ option is as good an explanation as we can get.

Babylon made it into civ2 and civ3 on the front line, and they will do so in civ4! :)

You know, you're not contributing to the thread much.

It'll just be a consipiracy until to you see the final cut of the game.

You know, you're not contributing to the thread much.

Arrrrgh! :mad: ......did I scare you? ;)

Is it possible that the different eras may feature different civs? If I understand correctly we`ll be able to choose which in era we want to start the game. So if we start in the ancient age we may have different civs to choose compared to the modern age???

No, they'd be the same the whole way through.

Babylon made it into civ2 and civ3 on the front line, and they will do so in civ4! :)
And also Civ 1. And so did Greece for that matter, in all three :D

Yeah, I love stirring things up a bit :D

Relax!

Im sure there will be a couple of expansions where new civs will be introduced... :crazyeye:

hmmmm... if I had to wager, I'd put my money on Greece; if I had hopes, I'm quite devided on the issue over Greece and Babylon; on one hand, western civlization can be more then adequatelly represented by Rome; most of the modern wests (anything) can be traced to a beginning in Rome, and not in Greece; of course, the Greeks were still hugelly important in the realms of the mind, and thier own gifts to western civlizations thought; on th eother hand, since sumeria is not likelly to be in the game (and, if babylon were present, shouldnt be, IMO; they were both facets, different political entities if you will, of the same culture) but either one or the other shoudl be present, to represent the foundings of civlization and culture in th elevant....

on the world map; which is what I mostlly play, I enjoy having both present, as both can be renamed for various ages for specific world scenarios (but then that part wil have to wait until soem good cudtum units come out, really)

a hard choice; but I've reached a conclusion;

ditch them both, and throw in the Minoans ;)

a hard choice; but I've reached a conclusion;

ditch them both, and throw in the Minoans ;)

Only if they include the Hittites, too! :D :p

Er, yeah, anyway. I personally don't mind which civilization is in. I do like both, and with some nations different from the usual here from the start [Inca, it would seem?] I can certainly wait for an expansion pack. Though, I'd rather see there be Sumeria again than Babylon... :)

What if they actually listened and put in minor civs? Then Cherokee could've been a minor civ, the Cherokees, and was then captured. This would mean we still have 18 civs (right) and Greece(thank God) and Babylon would both be in.