Ahem. *taps microphone* Is this thing on?

Ah, yes. See, it's like this. I had so much fun with COTM 9 that I decided I'd like to try this whole mapmaking gig again. Ainwood, of course, was absolutely thrilled to get the month off. Sadly, this unaccustomed joy must have shorted out his brain, because he didn't give me so much as a single "thou shalt not" for guidance. :nono:

Silly of him. :D

So, I made a very nice map. It plays like a dream ... on Monarch. :evil:

COTM13: France

Deity
standard world
7 opponents
continents, 60% water
wet/warm/3 billion
No barbs (what, you were expecting raging? ;))


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/COTM13start2.jpg

Seriously, for those of you who play both GOTM and COTM and who find Deity a bit much to handle, I do apologize for subjecting you to two such games in a row. I take full blame.

For those of you who enjoy a challenge now and again, I hope this game lives up to expectations. If you do like it, please spread the credit around to Mad-bax, Karasu and A Space Oddity, all of whom contributed mightily to any playability this map may have. (The first version was not pretty. :mischief: )

Starting bonuses for Conquest players:
Extra units: one settler and two scouts
Extra cash: 25g for unit support
Extra starting tech: pottery
AI/AI trade rate is reduced to emperor level.

The challenge for Predator players:
To work hard for your golden age. The golden age trigger is removed from the Musketeer, and the Industrious flag is removed from the Hoover Dam and Manhattan Project great wonders.

Vive la France!

Renata

Looks like fun, the musketeers are one of my favorites. Now do we settle on the hill, or 1 NW?

Stuckified.....

Well, doesn't quite look like an easy 4-turn warrior/settler factory. :hmm: There is a bit of gold around, and with a commercial civ, it might be possible to get some good research going. 1NW does seem a good option, but the general lack of food is concerning. Might want to have a look around first - worker west to mountain?

wow. looks like a challenge

:wow: I am still very deeply in GOTM43 and there is a pre game discussion for this one.

Bad news:
Second deity in a raw;
60% water
no food resources
no lux resources

What are good news?
I think of only one – Renata designed this map, so all deity AI may be somewhere very far. They will fly away to space before they destroy us.

Plan: no plan yet, but I will settle at the spot unless interesting and confident information will arrive from fog-gazers.

Second Ainwood in that we might have a tiny chance to try a slingshot.

Now do we settle on the hill, or 1 NW?

On the hill. Moving one NW would gain nothing, IMHO

Maybe I can take a couple of things learned in GOTM43 deity and make it to gunpowder so I can build a muskateer. Heh.

Any chance we can see the location on the world map ? Probably won't make a difference with the Renata custom design...

Vive la France ? More likely 'Mort la France' in my game. :p

cas

I was planning to do that and forget to grab the relevant screenshot. You're in the lower right part of the map, not right in the corner but not too far away, either. I'll add the minimap later tonight if have time.

Renata

Pardon me if I'm wrong but it looks like there's just hills and plains-forest to the NW. I'd rather settle in place and hope those grassland-forests chop down to reveal BGs. It looks like timing forest chops will be a big deal, since the timber's pretty much the only resource we have to start. The question is whether to go for the slingshot directly and risk not getting pottery in a trade. On the bright side, once we're out of despotism and the city's siize 12 with irrigation and mines everywhere, it'll be a shield powerhouse. Of course, it'll probably belong to someone else at that point.

That mountain to the east is beckoning... I may have to go climb and have a look

I added a minimap to the first post.

Renata

There are so many research strategies to choose from. And thanks to that 5-trade gold hill, most will actually work. The research numbers are beaker cost.

Pottery (80) for an early granary. If you want to trade for pottery instead, you can use the Pyramids as a prebuild (just don't chop any forest).

Writing (320), Philosophy (240) for a very good chance at a free tech.

Mathematics (320), Currency (640) for 2 techs the AI often ignores.

and of course,
Writing (320), Code of Laws (400), Philosophy (240), Republic,
which is possible if no AI starts with Alphabet.


Tip: if your first build is 2 warriors, road the bonus grassland before mining.

Deity...Very interesting what will be a predator "bonus"?

Deity is cool. I enjoyed playing GOTM43. It's really more fun to play when you don't know the outcome of the game right from the beginning.

In all fairness, there haven't been that many deity games lately. So :goodjob:. Now we even get one presumably without early food bonuses - I doubt many people will have the guts to leave that hill. If you do, how long will it be until you can work it - heck with no food bonus to compensate for the food shortage you get when you work it?

I'll have a closer look at the fog once the saves are out, but I doubt that I'll move even for a deer.

Republic slingshot could be tough, and these words will probably leave an echo in that respect:
It plays like a dream ... on Monarch.

I for one will not research pottery unless no AI has it. I'll hope for food bonuses in the fog for 2nd and 3rd towns and then granaries will still be delayed. Settler production in capitals has been getting too automatic for me anyway. It shouldn't be too bad to let the capital grow. We can give it a little luxury tax that the smaller towns won't even be affected by.

In the long run, I will probably focus on taking control of the home continent and then improvise for some kind of late victory - unless the game proves easier than it looks.

Well this could be a quick one. Settle on the spot, later find cows just out of sight, fail the republic slingshot, and decide to get Half-Life 2 after all.

I surrender!

Wow, 2 deity games in a row. Hopefully Ihave time enough to play them both. I will most probably settle on the hill (unless some of our experienced fog gazers see a cow somewhere).
The commerce bonus will make research feasible. I f no other civ has alphabeth, I think a republic slingshot is possible.

As it pointed out by DaveMcW, there are several research strategies and at least two of them can be combined in the beginning.
We could go to writing first and then depending on AI research pace go directly to philosophy or try a slingshot (for Monarchy or Republic).
I will not research pottery to increase chances of a slingshot.

Since it is COTM and deity, earlier contacts will be important particularly if map is curvy, so I will start producing warriors and my worker will road southern bg according to a DaveMcW tip. It is also very likely that I will produce a settler before granary (but it depends on the map).
First two warriors will go east and north. South is pointless and west is too rocky.

I also expect this game to be the longest among those that I ever played, but there is a good chance that I will have enough time in June even if GOTM43 will eat a part of June. So I am :drool: ing.

Where! Is! The! Food!! :mad:

Move north ...? :scan:

Oh well, Warrior-Granary-Settler will go in 21 turns.

There's food on the map, I promise. Of course, I might've given it all to the AIs. (They're so stupid; they need all the help they can get. Don't they? ;) )

Renata

Major bummer. Well, Conquest-class for me again. Any idea what the Conquest-class bonus will be?

Probably a settler and tech(s), but I'm not sure. I'll add it to the initial post once I've decided.

Renata

An extra settler for conquest class (and possibly techs)? This one must be really hard. What are you going to do for predator? Take away the worker? Come on Great Library!!

Do you get extra commerce in the city by settling on gold?

Predator "penalties" are a challenge for this game -- no barbs to manipulate, AI bonuses are already stratospheric, and to take away such expensive techs as alphabet or masonry would be pretty nasty. I'm still cogitating on that one, too. :)

You will get some extra commerce if you settle on the gold hill -- see Dave McW's first post.

Renata

An extra settler for conquest class (and possibly techs)? This one must be really hard. What are you going to do for predator? Take away the worker? Come on Great Library!!
Or the settler :lol: Automatic game over :D

Is the gold on a hill or on a mountain?

I think I'll make a test game...

@ Renata: I was unsure what DaveMcW meant by "5-trade gold hill". I know we get one extra gold in the city center for being commercial, so does that mean 2 for the gold hill? Sorry for being an idiot...

The penalty for Predator could be that you have to skip the first 5 turns.

I belong to the group of guys who thinks it's pretty nasty to play on Diety. I'd appreciate if anyone
could give me some hints on how to proceed. I'm starting to build my cities closer together and that
has helped a lot, but it doesn't always help.

I suppose this one is going to be about how many points I can gather before I get annihilited :(

To start with. I guess settling on the hill is the only thing that makes sense for now, unless
something fantastic is revealed by either my worker or anyone here.

Cheers guys ;)

The penalty for Predator could be that you have to skip the first 5 turns.

No, it is not good as it clearly gives a penalty without an opportunity to overcome it.
I think predators could start with zerro gold, this shouldn't be too bad. But I do not like it either as it is unlikely gives any opportunity to turn it into predators advantage. :hmm: How about giving AI an extra worker or better extra gold at the start?

I also have a radical suggestion for the conquest class, although not sure that this is possible. How about Conquest players will start with their capital on the hill with Great Walls in it?
This way Conquest players will not have a chance to spoil their game by wondering around with their settler and also will have walls to protect their cities.

Just dandy... I come back to Civ III after a year and this is what you guys repay me with? :eek:

Come on, ever here of the story of the prodigal son? :D

Time to go through all the Diety SG threads I can -- hopefully it'll rub off on me.

No, it is not good as it clearly gives a penalty without an opportunity to overcome it.How's that?
Where is the difference with starting without a Worker, except that that would be too harsh in a food-poor location?

I think predators could start with zerro gold, this shouldn't be too bad.10 gold, on the other hand, is nothing.

I also have a radical suggestion for the conquest class, although not sure that this is possible. How about Conquest players will start with their capital on the hill with Great Walls in it?Now that's more like it. :)

No, it is not good as it clearly gives a penalty without an opportunity to overcome it. I actually agree. This will lead to a pure loss in score, 10 points per turn and upwards.

Where is the difference with starting without a Worker, except that that would be too harsh in a food-poor location? Not that I like the no-worker penalty, but with a town and a citizen the first 5 turns you would get normal score during the first 5 turns and your capital would still expand after 10 turns, giving a normal increase in score/turn because of the added territory.

No worker is horrible. Not only does it cost shields and a citizen to build one, but you also have to go many turns without one. And with the scarce food? Big no-no.

How about giving AI an extra worker or better extra gold at the start? Extra worker(s) for AI is good, a typical example of what can be both an obstacle and an advantage. (Better roads in conquered land but harder to conquer them in the first place.) More gold, on the other hand is too good for the human. The AI doesn't have any use for the money except building embassies (=advantage for human) and buying techs (=usually from humans). Often the AI only offer 10 gold for your early techs, but if they had 100 gold they would offer, say, 80 or even the whole lot.

I'd rather see that extra worker(s) was accompanied by the usual change in AI support cost than by added gold.

Does the lack of a worker or techs not reduce score, then? Any handicap does. And is that not the entire idea of the predator class, that you have to overcome a handicap?

If you give extra's to the AI instead that may in fact increase score for players who know how to prey on the AI.

I'd like to have your problem's!!! :eek: :wow:

This will be my first deity game ever, so it will for sure be conquest class for me! Nevertheless I'm pretty sure I'm going to suck like hell! Hunting tips, here I come!

@ Caldazar and other deity-newbies: Try reading the spoiler threads and the "hunting tips/hunt continues" threads for GOTM43. That one's also deity.

@ Zelda's man -- I can never remember the exact numbers,either. :) I do know that a gold hill is one of the very few resources you can settle on and still get something extra out of it -- in this case, gold. You'll get 2 or 3 more gpt from the city center by settling there than elsewhere.

Renata

Why not lose the commercial trait for predators, or something similar. I think it is daft for Predators to have an advantage other than their skill.

I will of course play Open, if at all :) .

I hope you do play, Offa. But at any rate, taking away a trait doesn't work, because that would allow a golden age to be triggered with just an industrious wonder. At least that's how I understand it; I've never tested it out.

I have a few ideas. Still cogitating. :p

Renata

I hope you do play, Offa. But at any rate, taking away a trait doesn't work, because that would allow a golden age to be triggered with just an industrious wonder. At least that's how I understand it; I've never tested it out.

I have a few ideas. Still cogitating. :p

Renata

You could change Commercial to Expansionist and remove the ability to build scouts for predator.

Changing traits for predator class is not a good idea IMHO.
It will change dynamic of the game too much.

Yeah, I agree.

Renata

Just dandy... I come back to Civ III after a year and this is what you guys repay me with? :eek:

Come on, ever here of the story of the prodigal son? :D

Time to go through all the Diety SG threads I can -- hopefully it'll rub off on me.


:wavey: Welcome back pindicator. Haven't seen you around since SGOTM02.

About Predator - I know I already made a lame joke about this, but what about a self imposed variant that limits your ability to wage war.

I am thinking about the 'we surrender' variant. Whenever in war, which you are free to declare as you see fit, you must always negotiate peace at the first avaialble opportunity whether you are able to achieve favorable terms through negotiations or not. A possible exception could be during the GA (napoleon) you do not need to make peace asap.

I'm not a diety player so I dont know if thios would kill you, but I can see it working for me at lower levels.

As another shot about predators "handicaps": when Cracker started this he specified a victory condition for predators. Clearly this may not be popular, and could devalue the other victory medals. However, it would be fun to read lots of different accounts from top players as they breeze to diplo wins, or conquest wins.

As another shot about predators "handicaps": when Cracker started this he specified a victory condition for predators. Clearly this may not be popular, and could devalue the other victory medals. However, it would be fun to read lots of different accounts from top players as they breeze to diplo wins, or conquest wins.

Very interesting idea! But it may be not suitable for eptathlon's players.

I was of course joking about getting rid of the worker for the predator class. It would be extremely cruel to remove a worker from an industrious civ in the early game. The only reason I mentioned it is because I often here players adding the worker to the capital to start with 2 citizens so they can grow faster. I figured removing the worker would block that avenue. Another reason not to add the worker to the capital is because we are commercial too which means gold is supposed to be our friend, thus we need roads.

My favorite suggestion so far is the Great Wall in the capital for conquest players. Not having to build walls in the outer cities would save time and protect less experienced players (myself included) from an early sneak-attack....somewhat.

Of course a second settler is a huge advantage. It negates what I believe to be the AI's biggest early advantage.

Perhaps for predator class you could change the number of starting units for the AI to Sid level.

:wavey: Welcome back pindicator. Haven't seen you around since SGOTM02.


Hey, good to be back. I remember that SGOTM -- we did pretty well, didn't we? Or am I thinking of SGOTM1? Anyway...

I intentionally left Civ III behind when I went on my northern foray, so I would do something besides play it all the time. And what happens as soon as I get back? I go and pick it up again! :crazyeye:

I have no hope, do I?

Back on topic...

What is a good research strat on Diety? I know that later on (and especially since we're commercial) you want to do coin-operated research with the lone scientist along for a 50-turn gambit. (I do miss the 40-turn max.) I remember seeing people use that even as early as the beginning stages... but if one was to settle on the gold mine my guess is that you'd want to churn out the research while you have it.

This may be more modding than goes into the typical xOTM, but one option for a predator penalty would be to make two kinds of settlers -- one that only France can build and one that only the AI can build. Then boost the food cost of the Frence settler to three (or if that's too harsh, boost the shield cost by whatever seems appropriate).

I think i'll play predator like i did in gotm43 whatever the 'bonuses' will be, even though i don't actually feel confident playing on deity from a starting position with no cows. That's simply more fun.

I didn't hear many suggestions about the opening moves, seems like everybody was busy thinking about the starting bonuses :). How about moving on the mountain 2W to have a look at the land there? There are 2 rivers in that direction and maybe some cows...who knows?

You mean east? Go ahead and tell us what you find. ;)

How about moving on the mountain 2W to have a look at the land there?

I think you meant 2E. I'll send my first warrior there.
I think there is no much discussion of the starting sequence, because there are not that many possibilities.
I simply do not see anything better than to settle on the hill and start roading southern bg.

Why not lose the commercial trait for predators, or something similar. I think it is daft for Predators to have an advantage other than their skill.A bit oversimplified perhaps. Recall how many people have given up their attempts to climb Mount Everest with just 1-2% left. Myself I like to risk losing and may well do so in GOTM43.

I think there is no much discussion of the starting sequence, because there are not that many possibilities.
I simply do not see anything better than to settle on the hill and start roading southern bg.
Well, I will not do it. I will mine sw, then move w/o roading and mine and road south. By that I will be at five sh on the growth turn to size 2 (after two warriors by turn 9) and have still the option to either make a granary on turn 19 ( with one chop) or continue with military before the first settler comes out.

The granary is my prefered option, if there isn't a multi cow heaven right around the corner.

Everyone is hoping for food...I'm hoping for Ivory just out of site. Fat chance, I know, but mathmatics for first research tech plus the Statue of Zeus sure would be nice.

Of course...based on Renata's demon smiley face, I'll assume we are hemmed in by Greece, Celts and Carthage with no iron, horses, or luxuries of our own. :)

cas

I 'almost' absolutely will settle in place. At this level no sense in moving (then again, I didn't move last COTM either while most did, so look to others who are more likely to do that). I will highly likely do the following worker moves: mine,mine,road,road(the two BG's), then chop which will yield warrior(5),warrrior(9),granary(19),settler(23-25 depending upon another chop and what is found under the forest); this has some waste on the warriors, but gets the granary on turn 19 so you don't have to delay size 3 timing. At this level I can't imagine not running into someone with Pottery quickly enough to research Writing directly, which I consider critical for a chance at the Republic slingshot, which I consider to be the difference between a good and average game.

Decision point at turn 10 to decide to go for another military or not. If not, another one at turn 12 where I could switch to city walls and another 1-2 military before a settler if I don't think I'll meet anyone to get Pottery.

However, my plans could completely change based upon what other civ's I see before I start. If lots of people have Alphabet I will either 1) forgo trying for slingshot and build Pottery first or 2) forgo trying for granary before settler which will change my worker moves to road,mine,road,mine for the extra research to still hope for the slingshot.

My first few cities will take advantage of early research potential, which is the only chance for a slingshot, one turn could be the difference. Don't rule out scientists toward the end of a research cycle to get you there one quicker. The first 4 cities will most likely be distance 2.5-4 (and on a river). (Just wish that gold to the SW was on hills, because I would put city 2 on it.) Of course I need to see what is there, but based upon what I see 2W, 2N?, 3NE,2E+1? (avoid the volcano for all) are potential city sites that look like they are on rivers and can be roaded very, very quickly to reduce corruption.

Conjecture on long term. Knowing Renata, I fully expect the first resourse I will find is saltpeter. :cool: This would truely mess with those of us who like conquest and domination. Of course, then I would absolutely have to make that my victory condition and not consider the more logical ones. :crazyeye: If we actually get horses/iron, not sure what I will go for (conquest or space race).

I just had a great/bad idea. :beer: Conquest gets horses and iron within the first capital city radius. Open gets iron and 'no' chance of horses. Predator gets no horses or iron within reach while also having the AI with sid level units to start (which can be exploited).

@A'AbarachAmadan: Hey, don't take things away from us Open players too! :)

I like Megalou's idea for open to give the AI an extra worker, and extra gold or zero gold for humans. It's not too drastic.

What's so cruel about taking away the Worker? We'll build 2 Warriors first anyway, thus can complete a Worker after that with growth.
Considering we start on gold, and have lots of BG, that will be by no means worse than a typical Deity start - when Flood Plains kill your pop.
Taking away the COM trait OTOH is a killer, compared to conquest/open. That translates to 'Demi-Sid' in that context. Same with removing one of the expensive starting techs.

But, taking away the IND trait would work. That one doesn't really affect the game difficulty - but the score, and that's why I have my doubts we'll see it.

Wow, Diety again. I am a poor loser! All I can do in GOTM43 is hang on to my miserable existance. See my post in Hunting tips.
I think I will have to pass on this one Renata.
I bow before all those who can actually win at this level.
Its getting warmer outside these days, maybe its time for golf and yard work. I'll be thinking of you guys while I sit on my deck tipping back a cold one. Looking forward to the next Monarch game.

What's so cruel about taking away the Worker? We'll build 2 Warriors first anyway, thus can complete a Worker after that with growth.
Considering we start on gold, and have lots of BG, that will be by no means worse than a typical Deity start - when Flood Plains kill your pop.
Taking away the COM trait OTOH is a killer, compared to conquest/open. That translates to 'Demi-Sid' in that context. Same with removing one of the expensive starting techs.

But, taking away the IND trait would work. That one doesn't really affect the game difficulty - but the score, and that's why I have my doubts we'll see it.It's the loss of 10 turns of population growth I find murderous. Just recall how often you build a second worker before your first settler. It's probably not very often and there is a reason. Your suggestions are good although I'd prefer to lose starting techs rather than a trait. That would be repairable but require just the extra skill that a worthy predator player should have. (Not sure I'm one of those.)

It's the loss of 10 turns of population growth I find murderous. Just recall how often you build a second worker before your first settler.
A second Worker is my usual build if the capital grows in 6 or 5 turns @2spt ;). And somehow it's not a rare circumstance to either loose a pop-point to disease, or your Worker to a Barb very early (if the next AI is 'nice' enough to pop a hut right next to him :mad: ).
Taking away a trait may be too harsh, agreed.
In fact, I don't know what is best. Another Worker/ free units for the AI could either mean game over very soon (imagine Otto starts next to us...), or won't have any noticable effect. A free Settler for the AI is almost Sid. Removing COM is really not feasable; removing IND still ugly.
Removing a starting tech...no Pottery in CotM12 was not a big deal. But, that was Monarch and a cheap tech...
France really has to be played with that starting techs; either to research math for a sure monopoly, or to immediately start a GLib prebuild. If that isn't possible, it's not France...more like a SEA Civ without Curraghs.

A second Worker is my usual build if the capital grows in 6 or 5 turns @2spt ;).Interesting, I'll have to try that then. There's time for one warrior first too.

It's a good thing we don't need to decide the handicap anyway.

Interesting indeed on the second worker...

With all the forests we have, it looks like you can even go Warrior -> Worker -> Granary and get the Granary out on turn 18 with 4 chops wasting only 1 shield on the final chop. You can even get a second warrior out three turns later, but this only works if you can trade for pottery before turn 10 -- very unlikely, i know.

Even if this can be pulled off, I'm not so sure it's desireable. Without any bonus food (that we can see) in the radius of a gold-hill Paris, the difference in one population is a little more important. The +1 or +2 Shields and Commerce per turn can add up. Plus you lose out on an extra scout early on.

Actually, the first settler would come out two turns earlier with Warrior -> Warrior -> Granary than Warrior -> Worker -> Granary due to waiting for Paris to hit size three.

Now... does having that extra worker early on outweigh having that extra warrior to scout with and a settler two turns earlier?

I build a worker many times as the first build of cities, but not the capital.

Paris for me will make at least 2 warriors for exploring the terrain, then a settler as soon as I can for a food location.

Now... does having that extra worker early on outweigh having that extra warrior to scout with and a settler two turns earlier?

Hardly. This is not a start were I normally would build a second Worker early. But, starting without the Worker wouldn't be that ugly.

The usual situation I start a Worker before anything else is the standard '1 Grassland Cow at a River with an AGR Civ'.
Here, food isn't that problematic; irrigate the Cow, finish Worker with growth to 2. This delays growth to size 3 for a mere 5 turns...but, at that time you have at least one more tile improved - so, the Granary/Settler will copmplete at about the same time, while you benefit from 2 more roads (which translates to several turns you get a tech faster).

Building worker first might be interesting. I've never tried that before, and i admit that in some situations that may help. I'll do some calculations now each time i start to see if worker first is better that usual settler or granary with some warriors.

I usually start by building a second worker (or after a warrior, or two).

What you are giving up is time, a number of turns ranging from 5 to 10.

Because of what a Worker does, you will gain these turns back by building faster, by laying a road to the next city location, by improving the next city location, and by connecting luxuries. If you are industrial, the gain of an extra worker is larger, except when your workers are getting so far ahead that you cannot profit from their work, but that is rarely the case.

There are four main reasons NOT to start with building a second worker:
- there are food surpluses nearby for a second city;
- there is very little work to do;
- you want to raid your neighbours asap;
- the AI might claim your land.

So, what is wise depends highly on the circumstances. On average, I find that I have gained back the invested turns around 2550BC. On this map it will take more time, because the capital has no food bonus. And it's deity, so the AI will get to our land sooner.
Therefore, I'm inclined to build Warrior-Granary-Settler first, and take another look then. But I haven't decided yet.

Another good reason to start with a Worker is a Goody Hut you'll pop with culture expansion on turn 10...

That's more of a reason NOT to build a warrior. ;)

(Goody huts won't pop barbarians if you have no military.)

(But there are no huts in this game.)

That's more of a reason NOT to build a warrior. ;)

(Goody huts won't pop barbarians if you have no military.)

(But there are no huts in this game.)

And that is exactly why a slingshot is possible. No unlucky GH pops to Philosophy after the AI gets Writing.

Conquest/Predator adjustments have been added to the first post. The predator change is a bit unusual. I hope that potential predator players will enjoy the challenge, but feel free to vote with your feet if you don't; I won't be (too) offended. :D

Renata

Sounds fine.

Let's go hunting the Pyramids :evil:!

Predators becoming wonder addicted :goodjob:

sounds fun.

capturing pyramides before building lighthouse (always a good choice for Renata's maps?)?

Can't wait to read those spoilers. :p

Does no barbs = no GHs? I took no barbs to mean "No barbs except for those popped by GHs"

Renata -- if you could say "yes", "no", or "that's for me to know and you to find out :evil: ", I'd appreciate it.

No goody huts, that's correct. Can't get them unless barbs are set to at least sedentary.

Renata

...but feel free to vote with your feet if you don't; I won't be (too) offended. :D
Renata

I will not play predator. I still haven't win any deity and I do not see any potential advantage of playing predator this time.
But conquest bonuses are awesome, I wish I were eligible.
BTW, this is the first COTM on deity and its number is 13 :evil:

I will be playing conquest on this one... Only started monarch and havent even finished a Monarch game yet (win or lose)

I will probably be looking for some "Hunting tips" ;)

I will probably move 1 scout NW-W onto the mountain
the other S-S or S-SW

Do scouts use 1 or 2 turns for forest? If 1 then I am tempted to use the 2nd scout E-E.

Greetz,

See you all in the AA.

The scouts waste 2 movement points landing on unroaded forest (or roaded forest entered from a road going across a river.)

As thsi game seems very hard, I want to play Conquest Class, but I guess I was in Top 50% once.
May we relax this criteria for Deity games, s.t. more players can play Conquest class?
(I guess ainwood could best answer this.)

I oculd be less hard than it looks. The AI might have ugly terrain.

maybe a dumb question, but what level do I start since I am planning to take part for the first time. the standard setting, not predator I guess.

Re: socralynnek

I second this request.

While I myself have no intention of playing Conquest, IMO people should the right to do so if they choose especially in this game which seems close to real Diety - as opposed to the typical xOTM version where the player gets lots of bonus food.

What exactly is the rationale for forbidding people to choose anyway? The score penalty is already enough to encourage playing Open.

Just my $.02

@ThERat

Since you've never played before, you can choose whatever level you want. Go for the extra settler :D :mischief: :lol:

Since my attempts at the diety in gotm aren't doing well, I'm considering going for the conquest. I don't think I've ever gotten in the top 50%, so I should be good. Maybe if I feel inspired or courageous I'll take another go at regular diety, but probably not...

What exactly is the rationale for forbidding people to choose anyway? The score penalty is already enough to encourage playing Open.
I'm guessing the thinking was that it may discourage genuine newbies if experienced players are competing with them on an equal basis.

The intention of Conquest class is to reduce the chances of an early demise for inexperienced players. Players in the top 50%, who probably know their capabilities and know how to survive better, ought be able to handle the challenge, and to live with or even relish the danger of defeat.

While neither of us can know what was going on in his mind, I suspect that Cracker's intention was to force to people to move on to "real" games when they got good enough, which is valid enough. I doubt that noobs really care who they are competing with. Their main objective is to survive and to learn.Players in the top 50%, who probably know their capabilities and know how to survive better, ought be able to handle the challenge, and to live with or even relish the danger of defeat.Fair point. I know I am quite capable of losing to a Deity AI. There are those for whom there is no doubt. Is it fair to force them to go into battle knowing that they will lose?

Anyway... 'sup to you guys. As for me, the predator handicap sounds like fun and I'm going to go for it, even if I do get :whipped: for my audacity.

I know I am quite capable of losing to a Deity AI. There are those for whom there is no doubt. Is it fair to force them to go into battle knowing that they will lose?
One of the attractions of Civ3 is the uncertainty. No one should assume they are going to lose this game just because it has a Deity sticker on it. No one is forced to do anything, and as Renata said, players can vote with their feet. If we see a reduction in participation in this game then we'll take note.

However, GOTM ought to be the "Blue Riband" event for CivIII players. It would be a poorer competition if we didn't offer games at the top of the difficulty spectrum, both to stretch the strongest players and to encourage others to try to raise their game.

None of my remarks should be taken to mean this game is any harder, or easier, than previous deity C/GOTMs, by the way. I have no idea how this game will play.

I'm going to play the Conquest version as I said before. I don't think my game skill is quite good enough to go open. I like to think I'm getting better. Still, I'm starting to warm up to this game. At first, I was just not in the mood for a challenge that was likely to lead to frustration. I play for fun first and challenge second. When challenge tips over to frustration I balk. I look at the Conquest version as the 10k fun-run at a marathon.

Anyway, I think I'll have plenty of fun and challenge. I'll send the bonus scouts E and N, I think, to look for food. The bonus settler will head to the food, if any. The capital will build warrior, warrior, granery, settler (or something similar). I'll road then mine the BGs, then chop. The bonus tech is nice, so I don't have to worry about Pottery. I plan to research to Code O Laws, then Philo for Republic slingshot. Hopefully, I can become a tech trader to help keep up on tech research. The final bonus is the reduced trade level between AIs.

I won't have lots of time for this game, so there will be lots of instinct and rule-of-thumb moves. Still, I need to give due diligence to check everything and pay attention to CivAssist-II, too.

None of my remarks should be taken to mean this game is any harder, or easier, than previous deity C/GOTMs, by the way. I have no idea how this game will play.It'll be my first Diety game where I didn't start with a food bonus. IMO, that's a bit scary (and harder than the Predator penalty, which just adds a bit of spice). I'm looking forward to it. :cool: Can't wait for tomorrow.

I always win at Monarch, rarely on Emperor. Probably I am too pesimistic but, what are my chances of arriving to 1000 AD alive? Anyway, I want to play, in my personal experience on videogames I have learned more from my defeats than from my victories so... give me Deity!!

I could be less hard than it looks. The AI might have ugly terrain.

might... :D

I the game out soon?
Tried to download it from the GOTM page, but no files...only icons.

The saves won't be linked until the game is officially released, which is on the first of the month. Exact timing is dependent on AlanH's state of insomnia. Although I do need to post the Saves Available thread somewhere for him to grab when the time comes. Guess I'd better get on that ...

Renata

As thsi game seems very hard, I want to play Conquest Class, but I guess I was in Top 50% once.
May we relax this criteria for Deity games, s.t. more players can play Conquest class?
(I guess ainwood could best answer this.)
Well, I've looked at your scores, and I think you're just as capable as any other open player at tackling Deity (eg. your COTM 12 victory was comfortably in the top 1/2!)

Conquest class is really about giving inexperienced players a step-up - you really can't class yourself as an inexperienced player - give 'open' a go! :D

The saves won't be linked until the game is officially released, which is on the first of the month. Exact timing is dependent on AlanH's state of insomnia.

And now that the cast is off he is probably out driving around the countryside at all hours of the day and night.

People: Regarding playing conquest class:

If you have made the top 50% in the past, then we really, really encourage you to play open.

It will be much more satisfying for you to play a tougher game, and it is not really fair on the genuine conquest-class players if you do this. At the moment, they can compare their relative scores against other conquest-class players first, and against the rest of the community second. If experienced players start playing conquest class, then any benefits in this comparison are gone.

Also, most of you know that there are smaller competitions in the main competition - people size themselves up against others who they see as having similar skill levels; they don't feel they can compete with the players who consistently win the medals, but they can compare their progress directly with those that they regularly finish 'close' to. Again - open players playing conquest can destroy that aspect as well.

Please just stick to the guidelines.

OK. Now, I might feel a little bit guilty playing Conquest class. Not much, but a little bit. Maybe I can talk myself into Open class even though I've always been in the bottom half.

@Ainwood
I feel i am an experienced player, have been playing civ (on and off) for years. But at regent and lower levels. Just started my first monarch game.

COTM was regent IIRC and I dont know how I did. I did play open and did get a (for me) earliest ever Domination win. I would feel great if i did not finish in the last 25%, but Diety?! Geez... /@Ainwood

@All who care to read:
Tried a test game (just French Diety, same land, Same barbs etc, random oponents. I didnt get 3 "normal" city's in before I could cram in just one or 2 more (not real city's tho). Other civs were allready in the MA, while I was stuck with 5 citys (no research) lot of cash and 40 or so units I choose to attack Carthage as they look smallest. Take 2 city's then in the end a stack of 10 Swords and 20 Numerians arrives. That is where I quit :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Joan_d::Arc_of_the_French_history_minimap.gif

Also I quit partially due to the fact that its sleepy time ;)

If you've never finished in the top 50% or if you're brand-new to the GOTM, you have every right to play Conquest, don't worry.

Renata

What's the 'Top 50'? If that means the top 50% of CotM Highscores, then I for sure can play Conquest :lol:...the only CotM I ended not in the bottom third was the Demigod Sumerian one.

'High Score' and 'can beat Sid' are not necessarily related. Both require pretty different skills...

DocT, I'm sure you could get a top-25 finish playing with one hand tied behind your back and your eyes closed, if you so chose. You just choose not to go for the land grab, from what I've seen.

Long story short, if you play Conquest, I might have to hurt you. :)

But seriously, that's why no one is forced to play Conquest. People should play the version they think they'd be happiest playing, with the sole exception that people who have already placed in the top 50% of scores in any game are presumed to have what it takes to at least give it a go at all levels, even up.

Renata

maybe a dumb question, but what level do I start since I am planning to take part for the first time. the standard setting, not predator I guess.

I say it depends upon how well you play. When I started I did OPEN and haven't changed. If you can handle Emperor without much problem or already play at Diety level then I suggest OPEN. If you have problems on Monarchy then I suggest Conquest.

I've released the saves here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/index.php?month=30013).

maybe a dumb question, but what level do I start since I am planning to take part for the first time. the standard setting, not predator I guess.


With some of the SGs I have seen you play it - Open at least.

With some of the SGs I have seen you play it - Open at least actually if there is a bonus in the scoring system, I would play predator...having no GA would make things more difficult obviously. Or does Renata actually expect us to pull wonders at deity level to trigger the GA.

actually if there is a bonus in the scoring system, I would play predator...having no GA would make things more difficult obviously. Or does Renata actually expect us to pull wonders at deity level to trigger the GA.
You can always capture them.

You can always capture them.

Capture 2 that satisfy the trait requirements and then build any Wonder.

Bonus scoring is only a penalty to the Conquest class. Open and Pred games score the same.

Well, I've looked at your scores, and I think you're just as capable as any other open player at tackling Deity (eg. your COTM 12 victory was comfortably in the top 1/2!)

Conquest class is really about giving inexperienced players a step-up - you really can't class yourself as an inexperienced player - give 'open' a go! :D


COTM12 went really smooth...
Thanks for the encouragement, I will go for open...
The game start seems very hard, but let's take it as an adventure...
The positive side might be, that I am losing fast, so I can concentrate on other things then ;-)

The predator handicaps have really gotten ingenious, and this one sounds simply brilliant. A slight help in choosing tactics, too - usually a problem for me.

I wouldn't mind if the predator handicaps were really beefed up on the lower level xOTMs so as to offer big challenges. But I realize the scoring issue might be a problem if you are forced to keep a small territory longer than Open players, for example.

Great job!

And that is exactly why a slingshot is possible. No unlucky GH pops to Philosophy after the AI gets Writing.

Hi,
I am not sure I understand the "slingshot" here. What do you mean by that? :confused:

Thanks

It means researching (alphabet)-writing-code of laws-philosophy (while managing to get to Philosophy before anyone else), then choosing Republic as your free tech -- typically as early as the 1200s BC. A very unlikely accomplishment on Deity, even starting with alphabet, but we'll see.

Renata

my first real COTM, and it looks really hard. ive never won above regent, and havent tried above emperor. oh well... ill just die a very painful death.

I'd say settle on the hill, you'll get the gold, plus it is mountanous terrain and you'll want all the food you can get, don't waste a plains.

"Go with throttle-up."
"Roger that, go with throttle-up."

*scratches head* Wasn't that the last transmission from Challenger?

Renata

Got it in one.

I have been away for some time. Life and work get in the way. This CGOM has my interest and if I get the chance will play it for score. If not I will just play it later in the summer. I tend to struggle at Diety level, but hey this is lucky 13. And France is one of the nations I play well.

I wonder if there are bonus terrain just out of sight to keep the pregame discussions on opening plays down. Could our GM be that cunning?

Kevin.

Do you think it is even possible to play peacefully in the Deity game? I mean to build military just for defence and to not aquire a single city by force? I like this style of play, but I am not sure it can be played on Deity, I have never try that.

It's possible, if you can expand fast enough peacefully to get a decent number of cities, but it's often harder. If you're open to phony wars -- signing up several civs to take on a big civ, then just sitting back and getting on with your own building -- that makes it easier. Anything to hobble the AIs a bit.

Renata

I think I will give it a try - builder and cultural game on Deity. Let's see what happens.
BTW - starting location does not look bad at all. No resources, but 2 BGs on the river, starting on gold hill with a lot of commerce, we can get a lot of money out of that.
Axl

I have some questions if anyone wants to chime in. Since about 95% of the games I play if not more have good food starts, I'm a little unsure about how to manage a low food start. I assume there will be no granary and you will explore your immediate area for a high food source for your 2nd city. But when do you produce the first settler out of your capital? Do you do it right away as soon as the capital is size 3? Or do you wait longer? Does it depend if you find food bonuses nearby? Does it depend on other factors? For instance if you're going for the republic slingshot you might want to keep your research rate high and dropping your capital to size 1 could hurt that. Then again the gold hill will always be worked and will be your best commerce tile anyway so size 1 might not hurt your research too much.

If you find no food bonuses anywhere close will you build a granary in your capital? Will you devote more production towards military and try to use pointy stick expansion instead? Or just keep building settlers when you can and hope there's room to expand before the AI gobbles it all up?

Have there been deity GOTM's with no food bonus at the start location before? I'd like to read the QSC's from those games if so.

edit: I guess this post is assuming there isn't a food bonus just under the fog. There's a decent chance there will be one.

@Shillen

Build a few warriors for scouting and MP duty. Time a settler to come out of the capital just as it reaches size 3. Your single worker should be enough to develop the tiles around both the capital and your second city, since Paris will fall back to size 1 and will not need further improvements for a while.

It depends a little on what you find, but normally it's best to build granaries in both cities at this point. Paris will have one built long before it gets back to size 3 again. It will definitely pay for itself very quickly. Same thing goes for the second city.

Paris should next build a barracks at some point and churn out workers and military. At size 2, it can reach 5 SPT, building a 1 1/2 vet warriors (or the equivalent in other units) plus a worker every 5 turns. That works out nicely.

Hopefully your next city will be a settler factory. If not, work it like the capital. Build a barracks there too. Both cities can then build a settler and some military every ten turns. Your worker force comes from the new cities they found.

Question - What is the rule on restarting? I had a good game going, but got 50% of my cities captured in one turn because some idiot I had an MPP with declared on a military superpower :(. I either restart or I'm out... am I allowed to?

Please read the instructions and rules if you wish to participate in this competition. As indicated by other posters:

1. Replaying any turns is expressly forbidden by the GOTM rules. Restarting is an extreme form or replay. I suggest you submit a defeat, as others will do.

2. Posting here is not permitted after you have started the game.

AlanH

Praesidian: Aside from the fact the rules would forbid you to restart even from turn 2 - just ask yourself:

You are already in the Industrial Age, thus know where Iron, Horses, Saltpetre, possible Coal is located, plus the entire map...don't you think that spoiler knowledge is completely disqualifying? ;)

Actually I dont (I got owned without ever knowing the techs required for those resources, except iron and horses), but of course the idea behind what you said is true.

Question - What is the rule on restarting? I had a good game going, but got 50% of my cities captured in one turn because some idiot I had an MPP with declared on a military superpower :(. I either restart or I'm out... am I allowed to?

Please read the GOTM rules.

First: A replay of any type is expressly forbidden, with the single exception of a computer crash, in which case replaying from the last autosave is allowed provided you duplicate all moves during that turn accurately to the best of your abilities. You can continue your game to victory or defeat and submit it that way, or you can submit your game now as a retirement, but you may not go back and change things, then play on officially. (You can of course re-play the turns unofficially without submitting -- a Jason calculator will be released after the game is closed that will allow you to determine what your score would have been if you hadn't made the mistake.)

Second: Current games are not to be discussed outside of the designated spoiler threads, and the first of those for this game will not be released for two more days. Players are not to post in the pregame or game-release threads once they have opened the save.

Renata

Actually I dont (I got owned without ever knowing the techs required for those resources, except iron and horses), but of course the idea behind what you said is true.

No more discussion of ongoing games in this thread.

Renata

Hmm no doubt I'll get owned but I think its time to play, with the "guys", Bedes Emperor game gave me endless problems (still playing it, I think I hate him :D ) conquest here we come !

Oh, I so desperately want to DL the save and play... (Even if I haven't beaten a Diety level game before, I'm confident I can if I take my time, so i'll be doing open.) But i'm visiting my brother and won't be back to my trusty Civ until Saturday evening. I guess i'll have to spend my time devising tactics for various situations. haha, more like relaxing and visiting old friends. That whole RL stuff. :D

OK so where is the post-game thread for COT 13? I am done with this one already.

You guys are BAD! Another Deity game? I am good at Emperor level, but Deity is just too much. It's fun to lose though.

I wonder how long people who will actually win are going to play this one - 40 hours? :)

RULE: DO NOT POST HERE IF YOU HAVE STARTED THE GAME!

Off to start the game. I messed up and looked at the Hunt Thread for the current GOTM, so now I am going to have to try my first REAL Diety game with this one. I am going for the Conquest Class since I am not any where as good as I thought I was.

If I win by Space Race again on any GOTM or COTM, I am going to only play my regular Civ games as England. Oooh...now that is punishment...for a Vanilla Player. I will post in the Hunt Section as soon as I meet the requirements.

Looks like a freakin' quick loss for me.
But it is better to lose and learn, than to never have tried at all.