I am working on a piece of alternate history (the bane of the serious historian, I'm told) and would like to share some of my thoughts and ideas, as well as receive some feedback from those in the know.

I will dedicate the next few posts to the geo-political construction of my new world; feel free to chip in with what you see as inconsistencies or if you think you have a better idea.

Ideally, I would like a complete picture of life in this "New World"; as of now, it is mostly centered on North America, but ...

Fo any items not seem to follow from previous items? What's the first time you went "as if, is that guy high or something"?
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1776 - The thirteen American colonies (Massachusets, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia) declare their independence from Britain, and form the United States of America.
1783 - The United States' War of Independence ends with the Treaty of Paris. England cedes Florida to Spain, the southern part of its northern colonies (which will become part of Ohio and Missouri) and recognizes the Mississipi River as the US' western boundary.
1803 - Spain cedes Louisiana back to France, which promptly sells the territory to the USA.
1818 - The USA acquire Florida, Cuba and Hispaniola from Spain.
1820 - The Missouri Compromise sees Missouri and Maine admitted to the Union as free states.
1836 - Texas declares its independence from Mexico.
1845 - California declares its independence from Mexico.
1845 - Efforts by the USA to annex Texas fail.
1860 - The Election of Abraham Lincoln and the Slavery Issue sends the United States into Civil War. The South (Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Jefferson, Louisiana, Cuba and Hispaniola) secedes. Arkansas, Tennessee and Vandalia remain with the Union. The 38 western counties of Virginia join the North and form the state of Blue Ridge. England and France join the conflict on the side of the Confederate States of America.
1861 - The Mormons establish the nation of Deseret near the Great Salt Lake.
1862 - The war goes badly for the USA. Lincoln is assassinated. Attacked from all sides, the USA is forced to sue for peace. It recognizes the CSA, cedes the Oregon country and Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island and Connecticut to England, which places them under martial law. England then sells the land south of the Columbia River to California. After plebiscites, Arkansas and the eastern parts of Tennesse and Vandalia join the CSA. Blue Ridge remains a state of the Union.
1880 - Martial law is lifted over a pacified New England.
1883 - England divides its American colonies into the British States of America (Vancouver, Columbia, Emerson, New Glasgow, Manitoba, Northern Territories), Canada (King, Ontario, Wisconsin, Michigan, Québec), New England (Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusets, Rhode Island, Connecticut) to facilitate administration.
1885 - The USA partitions the Northwest Territories into 8 new states.
1910-1915 - The Great War rages on in Europe. Allies of England and France send troops overseas. The USA remain officially neutral, but secretly sell weapons to the Entente powers. England and its allies fight the Entente to a standstill, but France is thrown to the wolves. French exodus to the Province of Québec begins.
1917 - Pressured by England, California and Texas abolish slavery. England encourages freed slaves to travel north to the BSA, where they are promised a plot of land to work.
1922 - The CSA government, under pressure to end slavery but unwilling to do so, works out a deal with England. It will free its slaves if England provides the plantations with technology that will facilitate cotton farming. The freedmen who are not needed to work the plantations are deported to Cuba, Hispaniola and Africa.
1924 - Women get the vote in the British Possessions and California.
1931 - Women get the vote in the USA.
1947 - The Province of Québec leaves Canada. The Canadian government turns over control of the St. Laurent Seaway in exchange for free passage and mining rights in the north of the new republic.
1955 - Women and blacks get the vote in the CSA. Segregation still exists in the CSA.
1977 - Segregation is abolished in the CSA.
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I wanted to make Québec séparatisme a viable option earlier than in real life so that's why I assumed a French exodus, but it seems forced. Also, I can't really imagine how Britain and France could have backed the CSA during the Civil War (Harrison's notion doesn't cut it for me...) Finally, even without California, Texas and the South, it's clear that the US are top dog in this Balkanized North America... if my memory serves me right, New Englanders were some of the most rabid patriots during the War of Independence. Can anyone think of a way for New England to become an independent nation without desires to re-join the US as soon as the British forces leave?

North America - Pre 1947
http://math.treebeard.ca/na.jpg
North America - States and Provinces
http://math.treebeard.ca/namap2.gif


United States of America
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-usa.gif

British North America
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-bna.gif
Republic of California
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-california.gif
Dominion of Canada
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-canada.gif
Confederate States of America
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-csa.gif
Deseret
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-deseret.gif
Atlantic Union of New England and the Maritimes
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-newengland.gif
Newfoundland
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-newfoundland.gif
République du Québec
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-quebec.gif
Russian North America
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-rna.gif
Republic of Texas
http://math.treebeard.ca/Flags-texas.gif

I for the most part dislike alternate history.

I for the most part dislike alternate history. No doubt about it. However, I need some help making it all consistent so I'm asking the serious (*cough* boring *cough*) crowd... ;)

Fo any items not seem to follow from previous items? What's the first time you went "as if, is that guy high or something"?
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1820 - The Missouri Compromise sees Missouri and Maine admitted to the Union as free states.

The Missouri Compromise was specifically set up to admit Missouri into the Union as a slave state (Maine was a free state).

The Missouri Compromise was specifically set up to admit Missouri into the Union as a slave state (Maine was a free state).

Sorry, I should have been clearer. In this timeline, the acquisition of the former spanish colonies means that the slave states were outnumbering the free states before Maine and Missouri joined the Union. With their admission as free states, the numbers would now be even. I imagine that there was some desire amongs native Missourians to have their state be a slave state, but it had to go the other way to preserve equality, hence the term compromise...

That's the main problem, I guess. I've done the math and the consequences are clear in my mind, but I can't write everything in an outline...

thanks for actually reading through, though.

if the USA never went to war with Mexico and aquired new territory, one could assume that the Civil War would never happen since there would be no issue about slavery expanding in the territories...

ALso, california didn't have the same number of Americans as Texas and most of the inhabitants were Mexicans.

England wouldn't have joined on the Confederacy's side since they were importing more cotton from Egypt and India and didn't really need the southern cotton as well as their citizen's extreme anti-slavery issues.

France wouldn't have helped the south either since Mexico would have been a much easier nut to crack and conquer and the Emperor Napoleon III would have looked bad in Europe helping a slavery nation.

In other words, this alternate history lacks any concrete foundation to make the alternate history.

Also, Spain wouldn't have given up Cuba and Hispanolia like Florida since there wasn't much need for those offshore territory in the eyes of the American populace and that defending it was a challenge with the small american fleet.

if the USA never went to war with Mexico and aquired new territory, one could assume that the Civil War would never happen since there would be no issue about slavery expanding in the territories... Hit right on the nail... so what other kind of scenario could involve a North/South Civil War?

ALso, california didn't have the same number of Americans as Texas and most of the inhabitants were Mexicans. It didn't stop California from seceding, though (that part is actual history, not allo).

England wouldn't have joined on the Confederacy's side since they were importing more cotton from Egypt and India and didn't really need the southern cotton as well as their citizen's extreme anti-slavery issues.
How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?
In other words, this alternate history lacks any concrete foundation to make the alternate history. :cry: can no one see a way to save it?

Hit right on the nail... so what other kind of scenario could involve a North/South Civil War?

Not sure, probably one about states right.

It didn't stop California from seceding, though (that part is actual history, not allo).

The "sucession" from Mexico were led by John C Fremont and his soldiers under the employ of the American Army as an officer and an explorer. Also, there were a very small population of americans that he drew support from and the majority of inhabitants of California ignored his declaration of independence.

How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?

Prior to the Civil War, most Europeans knew nothing about America aside from Mrs. Trollope, Martin Chuzzlewit, and Uncle Tom's Cabin. Most upper class Englishmen tended to side with the South while the British Middle Classes composed of shippers, and manufacturers, friends of democracy and republicanism saw the US as a model to be cherished.

The Leaders of the British labor movement were also on the North's side as they saw the south as the aristocrats and bosses they detested.

Not sure, probably one about states right.
Prior to the Civil War, most Europeans knew nothing about America aside from Mrs. Trollope, Martin Chuzzlewit, and Uncle Tom's Cabin. Most upper class Englishmen tended to side with the South while the British Middle Classes composed of shippers, and manufacturers, friends of democracy and republicanism saw the US as a model to be cherished.

The Leaders of the British labor movement were also on the North's side as they saw the south as the aristocrats and bosses they detested.
Good for the world but not so great for my alternate history...

How strong was Anti-American sentiment amongst the Brits? What would it have taken to overcome their distaste of slavery and throw in with the Rebels?

Well a group of british cotton workers who suffered because of the civil war wrote a letter to Abe telling him to carry on the war, Gladstone was so impressed by this action that he strived to allow them to vote ie the 1867 Reform Act. So personally I don't think the Brits would of joined with the CSA especially thanks to the British Ambassador Lord Lyons (i think).

Like Alt. history...:) But too much of it is only about WW2, Hitler and American Civil War...and this one seems no different.

if you want alt hist, just go to the nes forum then the alt history thread

if you want alt hist, just go to the nes forum then the alt history thread
actually, what I want is historians input, not allo-historians'...

Like Alt. history...:) But too much of it is only about WW2, Hitler and American Civil War...and this one seems no different.

But I'm also interested in how the rest of the world would react/ could have caused this situation... basically, how could we have gotten to the freakin' map in the second post.

But I'm also interested in how the rest of the world would react/ could have caused this situation... basically, how could we have gotten to the freakin' map in the second post.

neigh impossible due to MANY factors involving Californian revolt from Mexico, European interests, economic interests of the states and etc. You should have thought about that before you wrote a bad alternate history that is completely unrealistic....

neigh impossible due to MANY factors involving Californian revolt from Mexico, European interests, economic interests of the states and etc. You should have thought about that before you wrote a bad alternate history that is completely unrealistic....

It`s not like my life depends on the success and or failure of the experiment...

In your opinion, this allo-history is not realistic; you`ve even provided me with specific instances where you feel it failed. While you could learn a thing or five about tact, your responses are exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Now I look to fill the holes, starting with a new Civil War scenario and Californian secession.

(And I won`t lose too much sleep in the process ;) )

you sounded like you were desperate <_<

you sounded like you were desperate <_<

My bad. Your points were valid nonetheless.

Hit right on the nail... so what other kind of scenario could involve a North/South Civil War?

Large scale slave revolt (John Brown on steroids) instigated, funded and supported by the Federal Goverment and northern abolitionists?

Well I suppose you could always invent a ficticious incident whereby a gung ho Union ship fired on a British ship in bad light thinking it was a confederate ship and killed some very important people such as Queen Victoria on a visit.

Not impossible (apart from the Queen Victoria bit). During the civil war there was a fair bit of sabre rattling going on between the Union and Britian.

And if Britian entered the war this would have made it easier for the French to do so as well.

alternate history.Anyting can be happened.But brainstorm is nice thinking about something is nice too.so thinh about it.what did ı said

Well I suppose you could always invent a ficticious incident whereby a gung ho Union ship fired on a British ship in bad light thinking it was a confederate ship and killed some very important people such as Queen Victoria on a visit.
Or you could go closer to actual history and have the Trent Affair be a causus belli between the U.S. and U.K. If Prince Albert had died of typhoid just a month or two earlier than he actually did, he would not have been alive to convince the Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, to accept Lincoln's apology.

The coolest alternate history I've ever heard. :) Except for the fact of how Canada seems so small and how the "nation" of Texas wasn't annexed by the Americans. >:(

Or you could go closer to actual history and have the Trent Affair be a causus belli between the U.S. and U.K. If Prince Albert had died of typhoid just a month or two earlier than he actually did, he would not have been alive to convince the Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, to accept Lincoln's apology.

That was the initial timeline divergence in Harry Harrisons Stars and Stripes series, it started with a great premise then got really bad really fast due to diabolically poor research that ignored such minor details as the fact it was the British that were providing not only much of the armament used in the American Civil War but were also supplying the Saltpetre needed to make gunpowder for them.

The Naval dimension of the books is particularly comical given how strong and high-tech the Royal Navy was in the early 1860's and also how small the US Industrial base was compared with Great Britain at the time.



One alternate history I've never seen is if relations between Germany and Britain hadn't badly deteriorated in the 1890's. The two powers were traditionally allies and their monarchs cousins so it is perfectly feasible that if history had run a slightly different course they would have been allies in 1914 instead of enemies.

France and Russia really wouldn't have stood a chance against the German-British Alliance and would have known it which leaves the geo-political situation of the 20th Century very different. You're probably looking at no Communist Revolution in Russia and no Fascism/National Socialism developing either.

Brittania Rules the Waves and Germany Rules the Land... Anglo-Deutschland über alles ;)

.

I'm not impressed by Harry Harrison as an author, so I've never read his "Stars and Stripes" series.

Right now I'm waiting for the next installment of Harry Turtledove's "Settling Accounts" series. Yes, I know a lot of it is soap opera, but it's such good soap opera.

Yeah I thought the Brits and French helping the confederates was a bit odd.

Also I think you need to include Canada a lot more in this scenerio. At one point you mention it being part of British North America, but by then it had become it's own nation.

As well, you didn't mention Riel and the Metis wars against the Canadian Government in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, those could be impleneted quite well into some of your story.

A lot of the time I was b it confused and wasn't sure where/why you were going a certain direction with your story/alt history. What were your intentions? and what events or results did you want to have a different outcome?

Also I don't like how the story started after the War of Independence, where many alternative stories could have been branched off of. Depending on your intentions etc, maybe tweaking the event of the early 1770s, could yield more logical/plausible results.

No way would have the British/French joined the Rebels in 1860. Like in the American revolution, they'd need to prove they could win. I could understand in 1862 if you included that they won at Antietam, but...

Also, I highly doubt Britian would gain New England. The people wouldn't allow it and probably Britian wouldn't want it.

No way would have the British/French joined the Rebels in 1860. Like in the American revolution, they'd need to prove they could win. I could understand in 1862 if you included that they won at Antietam, but...
If the South had played the King Cotton strategem more carefully, there was a slightly better chance that Britain might have come into the war.

If the South had played the King Cotton strategem more carefully, there was a slightly better chance that Britain might have come into the war.

Britian would have just gotten more cotton from Egypt and India. And Britian wouldn't have gotten much for siding with the Confederacy.

I agree. I'm just giving a "maybe, perhaps, if things were different" suggestion.

I agree. I'm just giving a "maybe, perhaps, if things were different" suggestion.

And perhaps that would have happened!

Some person posted your TL without giving you any credit on a different forum, so anyway, I might as well move my comments here.


1818 - The USA acquire Florida, Cuba and Hispaniola from Spain.

Florida - believable. Hispaniola - tentatively... Cuba?! Nope, sorry. More likely is Spain refusing to sell Florida and starting a war over it, though I'm not sure if the American fleet is strong enough to seize Cuba.

1845 - California declares its independence from Mexico.

Why should it? I mean, most of those in California who wanted independance from Mexico by that point were also those who wanted to join USA. A decade earlier, ofcourse, a Spanish-majority free California is much more likely.

1845 - Efforts by the USA to annex Texas fail.

Again - any reason in particular?

Incidentally, Texas-less USA is likely to get an earlier Civil War, which is an overwhelming northern victory barring unforeseen circumstances.

1861 - The Mormons establish the nation of Deseret near the Great Salt Lake.

Again - why? Maybe if USA is facing military defeat...

1862 - The war goes badly for the USA. Lincoln is assassinated. Attacked from all sides, the USA is forced to sue for peace. It recognizes the CSA, cedes the Oregon country and Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island and Connecticut to England, which places them under martial law. England then sells the land south of the Columbia River to California. After plebiscites, Arkansas and the eastern parts of Tennesse and Vandalia join the CSA. Blue Ridge remains a state of the Union.

Why would Britain join the war (I assume it did)? Also, Lincoln being assassinated is more likely to happen in 1860, where he nearly was. Also, New Englander separatism was by then rather dead.

England divides its American colonies into the British States of America (Vancouver, Columbia, Emerson, New Glasgow, Manitoba, Northern Territories), Canada (King, Ontario, Wisconsin, Michigan, Québec), New England (Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusets, Rhode Island, Connecticut) to facilitate administration.

BSA strikes me as a silly name... Dominion of Columbia, perhaps?

1910-1915 - The Great War rages on in Europe. Allies of England and France send troops overseas. The USA remain officially neutral, but secretly sell weapons to the Entente powers. England and its allies fight the Entente to a standstill, but France is thrown to the wolves.

Details! Details!

French exodus to the Province of Québec begins.

I wanted to make Québec séparatisme a viable option earlier than in real life so that's why I assumed a French exodus, but it seems forced.

Well, we can go for something like this. I assume France lost that war? Start a civil war. Communists (syndicalists? separatists? judeo-masons? penguinists?) win, a huge emigre community that happens to be filled with French nationalists sprouts up in Quebec. That said, Quebec separatist rebellions were already on in early 19th century, so...

California
abolish slavery

They had slaves?

Finally, even without California, Texas and the South, it's clear that the US are top dog in this Balkanized North America...

And without New England, too. Which leaves them with... not much.

if my memory serves me right, New Englanders were some of the most rabid patriots during the War of Independence.

And on the brink of secession in the first decade of 19th century. Not sure how to do it given your original idea, though. Technically, the best way to do it is the Decades of Darkness approach (btw - someone MUST start a NES in that setting, damnit! MUST!!!), but how to make CSA separate after THAT? Unless, ofcourse, we can have Douglas win the elections and antagonize both the North and the South into seceding, but somehow keeping the Great Lakes region.

Hmm.

I agree with das. More details!

Whilst we wait for pboily...

Problem with Britain and France being involved is that that will start a World War. Russia was very vocal in its support for USA, if I recall correctly Alexander II even sent a fleet on goodwill visit during the Civil War. Prussia, however, will probably be on the British and French side, as will Italy - intending to get future French and British support for a war with Austria. Austria is likely to wind up on the Russia side if it gets to that, mostly to spite Prussia.

IMHO that war will be very nasty indeed. Russia and Austria will have pretty decent chances at knocking out Prussia, but it will be a hard fight and if France and Britain prop up Prussia efficiently then Germany will probably be once more The Battlefield like in the Thirty Years War. Italy doesn't stand a chance by itself - with French help, however, there will be opportunities. Not sure about Turkey, but if it DOES get involved then it will be on the British side.

So...

World War 1 around 50 years before the actual one? Considering how far ahead Britain was with industrilistaion at the time it would proved to have been an interesting affair.

Napoleon manage to flee to NA (he did have such plans; to create an empire in the Americas) and lead the French-speaking lands there against the British with the support of anto-royalist colonists :D .

LOL. From St. Helene? He was a senile ill old man by then, he wouldn't have stood a chance.

No, not from St: Helene ;) From Elba, instead marching to paris he goes to Quebec.

Hmm. Well, I still don't think its so easy to smuggle an Emperor into British North America...

Not to mention smuggling an army as well.