I have a few questions about the GOM rule, if you don't mind.

#1. Are we allowed to rush units or buildings while the city in civil disorder?
#2. Are we allowed to rush units or buildings while the city is riotting?
#3. Are we allowed to borrow gold or trading gpt/tech/whatever then provoke the AI into declaring war? Note: our reputation would still remain spotless because it was them that started the war, not us!
#4. Are we allowed to sabotage our trade route or to intensionally end the trade agreement before its expiration without going to war?
#5. Are we allowed to teleporting our troops across a great distance? For example, gifting a city full of troop to the AI for the purpose of teleporting all our troops instantly to our capital. We could also intentionally move our troops into AI territory for the purpose of automatic move over to the opposite site of the world.
#6. Are we allowed to use DaveMcW free tech trick? Since it involves breaking into the production cycle (sometimes, that mean adjusting the luxury slider in order to gain enough gpt to make the trade).
#7. Are we allowed to rush units, buildings, SS parts, or Wonder during the production cycle (in between turn or after the AI turn but before our turn)? For example, you could get your nuclear power plant up running on the same turn that you discover the nuclear tech.

Just wondering! I'd like to know where you stand on these issues so that I can avoid any resentment down the road. And yes, I may be playing the GOTM.

Thanks in advance for your answer!:)

High moonsinger - it would be great to have you back playing!

We are debating (with a view to updating) the list of exploits at the moment, but I'll try to answer your question as I can (from teh current rule-set).

I have a few questions about the GOM rule, if you don't mind.

#1. Are we allowed to rush units or buildings while the city in civil disorder?
#2. Are we allowed to rush units or buildings while the city is riotting?
Do you mean resisting for part two? Presumably this is by disbanding other uints. Yes - this is allowed (if there is some other dodgy way of rushing in disorder / resistance, then please tell me!)


#3. Are we allowed to borrow gold or trading gpt/tech/whatever then provoke the AI into declaring war? Note: our reputation would still remain spotless because it was them that started the war, not us! Yes. If you can't goad them into war, then you're stuck.

#4. Are we allowed to sabotage our trade route or to intensionally end the trade agreement before its expiration without going to war?Yes. You WILL geta rep hit for this.


#5. Are we allowed to teleporting our troops across a great distance? For example, gifting a city full of troop to the AI for the purpose of teleporting all our troops instantly to our capital. We could also intentionally move our troops into AI territory for the purpose of automatic move over to the opposite site of the world.No. We've ruled this one out.

#6. Are we allowed to use DaveMcW free tech trick? Since it involves breaking into the production cycle (sometimes, that mean adjusting the luxury slider in order to gain enough gpt to make the trade). Can you be more specific on this? In general, you aren't allowed to do anything that allows the same gold to be used twice inter-turn.


#7. Are we allowed to rush units, buildings, SS parts, or Wonder during the production cycle (in between turn or after the AI turn but before our turn)? For example, you could get your nuclear power plant up running on the same turn that you discover the nuclear tech.Yes, provided you don't use production / specialists etc twice in the inter-turn.

#5. Are we allowed to teleporting our troops across a great distance? For example, gifting a city full of troop to the AI for the purpose of teleporting all our troops instantly to our capital. We could also intentionally move our troops into AI territory for the purpose of automatic move over to the opposite site of the world.I almost used this one. It's not listed on the banned exploits list. I vaguely remembered a discussion on it though, so I didn't.

Do you mean resisting for part two? Presumably this is by disbanding other uints. Yes - this is allowed (if there is some other dodgy way of rushing in disorder / resistance, then please tell me!)

Planting and chopping forests


Yes. You WILL geta rep hit for this.

Not nessesarly always...


No. We've ruled this one out.
Can you be more specific on this? In general, you aren't allowed to do anything that allows the same gold to be used twice inter-turn.

This involves trading techs to the AIs in the interturn before you get your own free tech if you are a scientific civ. (or using philosophy to trade for eg. CoL in the interturn so you can get Republic as free tech)

This involves trading techs to the AIs in the interturn before you get your own free tech if you are a scientific civ. (or using philosophy to trade for eg. CoL in the interturn so you can get Republic as free tech)

Very interesting and something I had never considered. Thanks!

High moonsinger - it would be great to have you back playing!

Thanks!:) I was playing the last two GOTMs, but I didn't have time to fininsh them.:( May be I will have enough time to finish one in the near future.

Do you mean resisting for part two? Presumably this is by disbanding other uints. Yes - this is allowed (if there is some other dodgy way of rushing in disorder / resistance, then please tell me!)

Yes, you can plant and chop the forest like Gyathaar said! That actually the best way to remove the resistance. For more info, check out my little post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2527270&postcount=3)

Yes. If you can't goad them into war, then you're stuck.
That may happen to the average players, but not to a pro.;)

Yes. You WILL geta rep hit for this.
More detail via PM.

No. We've ruled this one out.
Can you be more specific on this? In general, you aren't allowed to do anything that allows the same gold to be used twice inter-turn.

Actually, I don't think adjusting the slider will cause gold to be used twice during the inter-turn. Don't worry about this! If you have ruled this one out, then it's out!

Actually, I don't think adjusting the slider will cause gold to be used twice during the inter-turn. Don't worry about this! If you have ruled this one out, then it's out!
It can first be used for tax and/or sci, and then lux..

We haven't ruled that one out. Interturn trades upon learning a new tech are allowed, even with lux slider adjustment.

I'm a bit concerned about Gyathaar's 'not always' and your comment on the same thing; I assume someone's found a way around getting a rep hit from pillaging a resource you're trading away. We'll have to decide on that one once more is known.

@ MeteorPunch -- yes, we decided to rule that out as an exploit during/after COTM9, but it hasn't made its way into the list yet. As ainwood mentioned, the staff is currently discussing changes and updates to the list.

Renata

It can first be used for tax and/or sci, and then lux..

That would be disallowed, yes. But I think Moonsinger was talking about decreasing science to allow paying for tech with gpt, then increasing the slider again afterwards. As long as the lux tax remains the same before and after the trade, nothing is used twice.

Renata

I've accidentally jumped units before, but only to uninhabited coast-accessible islands, only because I was attempting to get units home, and they kicked me out, and those were the nearest open land tiles.

Yes, you can plant and chop the forest like Gyathaar said! That actually the best way to remove the resistance. For more info, check out my little post. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2527270&postcount=3) I see! Very clever, and also very allowable. From the C/GOTM perspective, its fine. The settlers will be from the other civ, and therefore any city founded will be (slightly) more likely to revolt, but I presume you just avoid settling until they are wiped-out?

I'm glad to see all this cleared up.

How about one more issue. Are there any limits to what we can do when it comes to drafting/disbanding? That is:
1. Can we purchase workers for the sole purpose of joining/drafting/disbanding?
2. Can we draft conscripts for the sole purpose of disbanding them to build other units?

I think these are allowed, but I've watched in vain for a confirmation of that.

I hope not, I do both of those all the time. The conscription thing I use to rush improvements in very corrupt outlying cities when I desperately need my cash for other things. But it's not constant drafting/disbanding, I just do it when my cities stop growing and I don't need any more workers, and there is of course an unhappiness penalty associated with it as well.

I buy workers from allies (usually I decide that they're gonna be allies for the whole game) and join them into core cities in the early middle ages usually - as long as I don't go to war with them, my cities get up to full size quickly(after building aqueducts) and there isn't much of a penalty to that, but this is the earlier game.

They're both allowed. Just don't join a worker to a city that can't support it in terms of either happiness or food, and I think you're fine.

Renata

That would be disallowed, yes. But I think Moonsinger was talking about decreasing science to allow paying for tech with gpt, then increasing the slider again afterwards. As long as the lux tax remains the same before and after the trade, nothing is used twice.

Renata

Thanks Renata! You read my mind.:) First lower the lux and science slider to gain enough gpt to buy the AI's free tech, then of course, we sell them our free tech to get those gpt back,then we readjust the slider back to its original position.

I have a few questions regarding reloading, just to clarify whether those are considered exploits or 'legal'.

1. Save game before IT and later reloading to replay the IT to check on things missed during the IT (such as how many units were lost, what was exactly attacked).

2. Save game, change MM for a city and reload to check on the actual difference that MM has done (such as more science beakers, gold etc.).

3. Save game, load another different game and go back to initial save.

I do not know how all these actions affect reload count, but I would like to know whether the above are ok. These reloads would, of course, not alter the game such that a 'better' outcome was ensured.

We would recommend that you don't do any of these during the game. Every "unnecessary" reload makes your game entry more suspicious and our job of adjudication more difficult. I'm sure you can understand that detailed investigations to confirm that high reload levels have had no impact on a game are tedious, time consuming, and may ultimately be less than conclusive, leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

High reload rates are not the only indicator we watch, but they are never ignored when they occur. We have a lot of statistics accumulated over the years the competition has run, and we know pretty well what the bell curve looks like.

Of course, you are going to play other games between C/GOTM sessions, but SG turn sets are not so frequent that they should have a drastic effect on your session lengths, and surely they, and private games, can wait for natural breaks in your competition game? Or there may be another option ...

At one time when I was tracking two SGs and a GOTM, and testing the GOTM installers, I was running multiple simultaneous instances of Civ3 on my computer. This meant I could leave the GOTM running, uninterrupted in the background, while I dealt with the other tasks in another copy of Civ3. I don't know whether this is an option for Windows players, but it was no problem to run two or three copies on my Mac.

By all means, save as often as you like, or use CivAssist to create an automatic archive of all your autosaves, and then go back and do post mortems later ... after you've finished and submitted. But don't reload your saves unless you have to quit the game or you suffer a crash. If you are suffering multiple crashes then you should seek technical help rather than submit a game with a high reload count.

It doesn't work under XP, at least, but there is a workaround - make an additional user profile, log out of one(leaving the process running - this is equivalant to "hibernating" the comptuer) and log into the other, and run Civ3 again. Just don't screw with any files that might've been open in the other session, otherwise you may end up with some REALLY wierd errors.

I haven't tried this, but it SHOULD work.

I don't know whether this is an option for Windows players, but it was no problem to run two or three copies on my Mac.

On windows you can run only a single copy at the same time.. however you can run Vanilla civ, and either ptw or c3c at same time (cant run ptw if c3c is running or other way around)

Wow! Finally, something I can do with Civ3 on my Mac that can't be done on Windows :) I'm so proud!

By all means, save as often as you like, or use CivAssist to create an automatic archive of all your autosaves, and then go back and do post mortems later ... after you've finished and submitted. the archive of autosaves must be huge in size, every autosave is 1.5MB I think, with let's say 300 turns...wow

Anyway, I fully understand your reservations and if I take part in another COTM, I will try and keep the reload as low as possible. I just did not think of it when doing all my usual behaviour patterns as described above. I also do not want an entry which smells of foul play. :sad:
By the way, if one loads the initial 4000BC save, has a look, then stops to read the pre-game discussions, the reload count starts ticking I guess.
Have to really adjust my style :crazyeye:

the archive of autosaves must be huge in size, every autosave is 1.5MB I think, with let's say 300 turns...wowNo. Thanks to Dianthus, autosaves are now compressed before being archived (so they're about 200-300 kB). And Dianthus' CRPMapstat will also archive them as compressed saves (as an alternative).

BTW - opening a save and checking info only, then closing it is fine. Reloading is only a problem when the outcome is changed.

BTW - opening a save and checking info only, then closing it is fine. Reloading is only a problem when the outcome is changedso, the above written actions would be ok, except that they might raise the reload count to levels that raise suspicions that you might have cheated to get a better result.

BTW - opening a save and checking info only, then closing it is fine. Reloading is only a problem when the outcome is changed This is true except that, in order to open an earlier save you have to save your current state in the game and then reload after having looked at the earlier save. That increases your live game reload count.

so, the above written actions would be ok, except that they might raise the reload count to levels that raise suspicions that you might have cheated to get a better result.Correct. Note that this applies to SGOTMs as well, and I believe the HoF team also does similar checking, so competitive Civ is generally not a good place to practice these habits.

I see! Very clever, and also very allowable. From the C/GOTM perspective, its fine. The settlers will be from the other civ, and therefore any city founded will be (slightly) more likely to revolt, but I presume you just avoid settling until they are wiped-out?

If we build enough theory here, do we increase the risk of this thread flipping to the Strategies & Tips forum? ;)

My tuppence worth is that foreign population can exist in two states in your empire. (1) as citizens, where they act the same as the native population, but are liable to resist, sulk or defect. (2) as slaves, where they do what you tell them, when you tell them, and they do it for free. Don't rush settlers from captured towns, rush slaves. Besides, they cost less shields per pop point.

In fact you do not even need to wait until they will be wiped out, when you settle with a foreign settler you get a town with one pop. If you have enough luxes and you do not have huge WW, the guy in this city will be just fine, while those with >10 pop are pain.

I do have one question about reloading as well. During one turn the game crashed right after I took an AI city. So when I reloaded, I guess I did things in a different order and I was unable to take the city. Since I felt like this was a big discrepancy, I reloaded again and switched the order and this time I was able to take the city again, so I kept playing. This will not disqualify my game will it?

Also, I used the gift a city method (which sent my troops home), but it was not for the sole purpose of getting a free ride home. I did it because there was no way the city wouldn't flip back to them if I tried to keep control of it. Thus I gifted the city to a civ with a greater culture than my enemy's. This also really hurt my enemy's production capabilities. I thought this was a good strategy, but my troops did get a ride home, although it was not the reason for the gift. Does it matter what the intent is?

Since I felt like this was a big discrepancy, I reloaded again and switched the order and this time I was able to take the city again, so I kept playing.
Well, they do say confession is good for the soul :rolleyes:

Reloading to change an outcome is *always* dangerous. Presumably the second attempt to take the city was no more or less valid than the first, it just rubbed the RNGenie a different way, and you might equally have played it that way first time around. You feel a reload is valid in this situation, simply because you *know* that there's a way to get the RNG to perform for you if you play it right? Why is that more reasonable than just replaying the turn anyway, hoping for a better outcome.

Suppose you had *failed* to take that city before your computer crashed, and the next time you succeeded. I'm going to hazard a guess that you would not have reloaded to get the same, worse, outcome as your crashed attempt?

This will not disqualify my game will it?
Reloading to change an outcome? What do you think?

I thought this was a good strategy, but my troops did get a ride home, although it was not the reason for the gift.Nice little extra bonus, though. You could have avoided the issue by moving them out before gifting the city.

Does it matter what the intent is? Not really. The community can only judge your games by their visible outcomes. Your professed intentions are inside your head and can't be assessed objectively.

Reloading to change an outcome is *always* dangerous. Presumably the second attempt to take the city was no more or less valid than the first, it just rubbed the RNGenie a different way, and you might equally have played it that way first time around. You feel a reload is valid in this situation, simply because you *know* that there's a way to get the RNG to perform for you if you play it right? Why is that more reasonable than just replaying the turn anyway, hoping for a better outcome.

Suppose you had *failed* to take that city before your computer crashed, and the next time you succeeded. I'm going to hazard a guess that you would not have reloaded to get the same, worse, outcome as your crashed attempt?

Honestly, I probably wouldn't have reloaded if the outcome were different for the better. However, I was comfortable with my decision that the game that more resembled the original because of the second reload. The RNG was kind the first time (and I was lucky). I was unlucky that the computer crashed and then the RNG decided to be unkind. I felt like I should have some sort of insurance policy that protected me against losses caused by crashing. Oh well...

Reloading to change an outcome? What do you think?

Well if it doesn't count, I can just view it as a learning experience. I still haven't finished so I might not even win. I do appreciate the explanations. No hard feelings.

Nice little extra bonus, though. You could have avoided the issue by moving them out before gifting the city.

Very true. At the time I was unaware it was a banned exploit. I truly prefer to play/win by the rules and that is why I brought it up in the first place. Next time I will just move the units.

Not really. The community can only judge your games by their visible outcomes. Your professed intentions are inside your head and can't be assessed objectively.

No argument here.

Correct. Note that this applies to SGOTMs as well, and I believe the HoF team also does similar checking, so competitive Civ is generally not a good place to practice these habits.very true, I agree that my habits aren't good if I want to take part in those competitions. Next time, will try and play without any reload except once I finish a session.

Just want to thank Renata for the rules confirmation :thanx: