Im curious, RBFXT, CivArmy, Kinboat, Anglo, CamJH and all the others who have put their part into making graphics for Civ 3, how many of you will countinue to make units/leaderheads for Civ 3, how many will change to Civ 4 when it comes out, and how many will do it for both?

Personally I belive I will stick with Civ 3(atleast until everyone else leaves for Civ4) , because I dont know if I have the resources to make heads for Civ 4.

That'll most probably be my case. I'll keep working on Civ3 stuff until I can get a CivIV copy of my own, to start playing it and see if it's really worth (and possible) to create graphic improvements for it. Most probably, all I'll do (as I am now) are leaderheads, and I'm sure that won't be too different from what it is now (I haven't checked the video previews yet, just a couple of screenshots, so I'm not sure on that). I keep all of my current leaderheads files archived on CDs/DVDs, so when the moment comes, if everything's as easy at it seems it'll be, all I'll have to do is to change the animations as needed, and then just re-render them to be released as CivIV LHs

I've never tried my hand at creating graphics, and as such haven't really contributed to Civ3 modding (in the slightest). However, I know my way around Python so I'll be waiting eagerly to get my hands on a copy of Civ4 :)

There's been a couple of similar threads to this. Basically, some people will try to convert their existing mods to Civ IV, others will see what Civ IV is like first. Aaglo won't be able to create graphics using his favoured Povray system, as it's incompatible with Civ IV :sad: . Some people have decided that once Civ IV is out, Civ III will be history - but Civ II still has a thriving community!!
Personally, I think it'll be interesting (at least at first) to have the slate wiped clean, so to speak, and to start creating new graphics for the new game. I want to see what the requirements are for leaderheads and give it a go. It would seem that if I were, for example, to create a Henry VIII leaderhead for England, I could also create a Tony Blair leaderhead and give him different traits. It seems like it's the leaders rather than the civs who carry the traits from what I've seen.

I'll continue to convert units for CivIII (oops, I'v revealed a secret info :blush: ), and then convert them again for SSS.
But this part is very easy, as I just have to do "load FLC" and then "save gfx_unit", and possibly change a few things like speed, centering or zoom if needed.

I hope you guys don't completely stop making graphics for Civ3, cuz I'm not going to stop modding Civ3 until I'm done with my mod. It never fails, just as things start to come together, a newer civ comes out. Happened the last time, too! And, not until I can afford a supercomputer. Because my computer at the moment can barely handle Civ3. There ain't no way this side of hang that I'm going to be able to run Civ4 anyway, suits me just fine.

Screw Civ Four. Screw it in the eye, I say.

Amen to that!

Civ 4 is just an improved version of Civ 3. Why screw it in the Eye?

Actually Civ 4 isn't much like Civ3 really except in the concept of the game. I think it's an improved version of both Civ2 and Civ3. Maximum modding flexibility and superior graphics. I am sticking with modding Civ3 till Civ4 is finished patching after release. I'm sure there will be at least 1 patch. I'll probably toy with it while working on the Mystara mod and see what it can do so I can plan my Mystara conversion to Civ4. The problem will be units. I don't think Civ4 will use the flc system, it's too 2-D.

Seeing as how I *just* upgraded to a pentium III, I will be playing Civ III (and helping where I can) for some time. I'm always about three years or so behind all the new games.

I'm stickin with Civ 3. I'll probably buy Civ 4, but won't make graphics for it,

I'm not making anything for civ4.

If I like Civ4, I'll make the switch and probably just create scenarios, as I don't have & won't likely buy the programs necessary to create units & leaderheads for it. If I don't like Civ4, I'm considering taking the next step into 3D rendering (I can do everything else now) and start creating completely custom mods, similar to what R8XFT does now.

I have many, many ideas that I never had the time for, so right now I'm leaning towards sticking with Civ3. I'm kind of on a 'customization vacation' until then. ;)

I expect mod for Civ4 as soon as possible :) and I've made some tests yet.

Emperor Pedro II of Brazil
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Civ4-Brazil011.jpg

Initially I will only make stuff for Civ3. I will wait and see how much I love/loath the game before I make any long term plans.
I am concerned about unit creation for Civ4. From the early reports it seems to require some insanely expensive software. But since I haven't seen it yet nor what provisions (if any) they will make for including units made with software costing less then a mortgage payment.

The game engine for Civ3 is a mess. But the ease with which all the graphics can be created is a real boon.
Which seems better to you:
(A) a game where it is easy to replace everything but the engine is limited and requires little if any special tools.
(B)a game where the engine (from early reports) will be modifiable and fairly flexible, but adding stuff to it will require extremely high-end (expensive) and complex software?
For now, I vote "A". But since I haven't seen "B" yet, I might at some point change my mind... but I'd be unhappy if I couldn't make units with Bryce for it. Simply put, I do not plan to buy 3d studio max. If I can make units with Lightwave, Poser, Bryce or a free program, then I am more likely to seriously consider Civ4.

I'll make this prediction:
If civ4 is as nasty to add units to as it sounds, it will be in trouble with this community. There are lots of cool add-ons. I've made 170+ addons. Roughly 95% are non-unit, 5% are units. The units get ~12% of the total DL's, or for every non-unit DL there are 4.5+ unit Dls. So, almost everyone likes buildings, wonders, techs, and so on... but they care much much more about units. And for now it sounds as if Civ4 fixed the engine issues but broke everything else in the process.

I agree, Bjornlo, I think they decided to move on to Civ4 a little too quickly. Yes, gameplay should be top priority, but to put custom creators out of hobbywork due to a technological breach is downright foolish - especially after they applauded the community's efforts (and in some cases, even used them in the expansions).

sourboy: more so, I for one don't really like that Civ4 will be 3d... Seems every game nowadays HAS to be 3d, sad but true.

On subject: I really wish they would make it so that free programs could be used making stuff for the game at least, supporting gmax would be very nice.

As far as leaderheads go, I still havent been able to reach the same level as the civ 3 heads, most people here haven, that is not to say they arent good heads, but that they dont fit in with civ 3. And civ 4 heads look more difficult, with a sometimes very complex and detailed head, going to a small child like body... I do not know any think like that for poser.
I probably wont mod civ 4 until a year or 2 after it comes out, by that time anyone who can make graphics for it should come out by that time.

I think, once we figure out some of the finer points, re-skinning to make new units will not be too hard. But that will be only reskinning, not building new character models...

The game engine for Civ3 is a mess. But the ease with which all the graphics can be created is a real boon.
Which seems better to you:
(A) a game where it is easy to replace everything but the engine is limited and requires little if any special tools.
(B)a game where the engine (from early reports) will be modifiable and fairly flexible, but adding stuff to it will require extremely high-end (expensive) and complex software?
For now, I vote "A". But since I haven't seen "B" yet, I might at some point change my mind... but I'd be unhappy if I couldn't make units with Bryce for it. Simply put, I do not plan to buy 3d studio max. If I can make units with Lightwave, Poser, Bryce or a free program, then I am more likely to seriously consider Civ4.

I'll add to your "A": although there is a severly limited engine,there are many workarounds to it.
-
Civ4 is a mistake waiting to happen. I am just going into unit creation, and I have created and am creating quite a few non-unit graphics. I am going to wait awhile before I taint my hard drive with it (a few patches and a reduction in price, as it is sure to expensive), until someone has figured out a way to easily MOD Civ4. I am willing to change my mind about it, though, once I see how it looks and acts.

Call me cynical, but based on some of the stuff I've seen whilst lurking the Civ IV forums, you can sum my opinion of Civ IV with this simple equation: Civ IV~MoO III. Therefore, I'll stick to Civ III until it dies, then jump over to SSS, which combines flexibility of engine with ease of modification.

Besides, I still have gotta get the Final Fantasy mod done, and I'll be danged if I'm going to scrap a year's worth of work and start over with Civ IV. Even if Civ IV turns out half decent, I'll wait about 4 years so that all the expansion packs and patches are out then buy it, so I don't end up wasting about $80 on expansions like I did with Civ III.

I am buying civ IV the day it comes out.

I am currently working on understanding game model designs.

I know civ IV =/= MoO3. MoO3 just had a staff that listened to whining fans too much, and missed why the games the fans were whining about also happened to be the games they were playing the most.

Down with Civ4.. down with Civ4.. burn it burn it!

I'm sticking with Civ3 until they make an effort to make Civ4 more like Civ3.. then I'll see. I heard they are including Civ3 graphics, so you can use them while you play Civ4. That's only a rumor, if that is true, I might check Civ4 out.

They had declared Civ4 more modder friendly but if they really looked at the mods and scenarios on these forums, then they would atleast have some evidence in the screenshots, however, I don't see any.

It seems like most of the modders and artists aren't willing to abandon civ3 and I'm with them. I never had much interest for the original game and I used both civ2 and civ3 for the mods. Why should you try an improved civilization experience when you can play exceptional mods that outclass the original game, based on fantasy and literature concepts? I won't bother buying civ4 unless good expansion packs are released AND good modding and modifying tools. Which, as most have pointed, looks rather difficult.

@Yorgos
because its an improved civilization experience

:lol: Have any of you bothered to read the modding section of the Pre-release info page? Have you bothered to listen to the parts of the interviews that address modding? CivIV is going to be more moddable than CivIII. I am confidant that the mods people will churn out for CivIV will blow the CivIII mods out of the water and into orbit. Why (and how) do you guys already hate CivIV? Last time I checked, nobody even has a final version of it yet.

All that aside, I plan to pre-order CivIV and get it as soon as humanly possible. Then I plan to test it out and begin "fixing" the weak points through modding (like I attempted to do with CivIII and 90% finished).

CivIV is likely going to put us MS Paint modders out of business. ;) I'm trying my hand at gMax and Poser, but I'm a total dunce at 3D modelling. I haven't found any good step-by-step tutorials for both yet...

Ogedei,
There is a brilliant tutorial for Poser (By UtahJazz7), check the tutorial section.
The problem is, that so far, modding Civ4 "sounds like" it may require 3d studio max (a $2000.00 software package) to make units. While some on here use that software, 90-95% of the units were created with far cheaper software. And even those of us with expensive software (Lightwave, in my case) might be out of luck since even though this is as fancy as 3d studio, it is not the same.
And those that make units with POV-Ray (like Aaglo) or Bryce (Wyrmshadow, Hikiro, and myself) are going to be completely out of luck.
How cool would civ3 be if it had 95% fewer units to add to our mods?

I heard they are including Civ3 graphics, so you can use them while you play Civ4. That's only a rumor, if that is true, I might check Civ4 out.


If this is true, this is just fantastic. Would be great if we were able to use all the amazing stuff that has been made for CIV3!

There is a couple of things I really hate about Civ4: animal barbarians, religion (the way it is implemented), 3D, smaller maps and some other stuff. But appearently it shall be easy to mod... So all in all it may be a good game, if I can make it the way I like it, a mix between all civ-versions to date somehow..

I don't really care about the 3d world, moving resources etc - no point as I see it. Civilization isn't a game about graphics in my opinion, at least it shoulden't be. But the 3D world is a real turnoff...

No one remembers populus3. Lets hope civ4 isnt the populus3 of the civ series

Well,if you want my opinion,I'm staying because my comp can run CIV3 mediocrely,but when you 3D,it's KABOOM!But perhaps I try to do my own little scenario,if I get a better computer

I heard a rumour,that in CIV 4 you can do even your menus,but alas It's not really worth it if the units can't be made easily...

Other than unit making, I'm completely confindent in Civ4. I think that there will be some way worked out to do units though. Think about it. You can make a thousand units out of 1 model. You just need someone to make the models then add skins and you have units. I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, but I remember modding Freedom Force and there were thousands of models and skins to mix and match. If that lame game could have that much available then why wouldn't Civ4? So really even the units aren't worrying me too much except the Mystara mods needs some really strange ones to make it right.

If your not willing to take so effort to learn a programing language then you will never like modding in Civ4.

So if you guys want everything easy I hope you stay here. I don't want to deal with the whining when things get tuff.

I am excited for Civ4 and will buy it as soon as I can. Heck I'm even using the time that I don't have Civ4 to learn Python so I will be able to mod the day it comes out.

Also if you are planning to mod civ4, I would reccomend learning Python today instead of waiting.

Edit: I've done some reaserch, Civ3 was realeased October 30th, 2001 where in order to install a mod you had to edit the original game files. Not such a good thing. Also in order to add units you had to use a cracked editor. Strike 2. The Flicster thread is dated November 25th 2001, which was the first way inorder to make units. Almost a whole month.

Now onto a diffrant game: Pirates!. Pirates! was realesed in November 22th, 2004. Pirates featured a 3d world running off of the Gamebro engine. From day 1, you were able to customize the flags/sails. They even had instructions in the readme! Now this game is not like Civ at all. But since the realese people have made flags, sails, ships, and characters. And guess what all that changes are in 2d. Don't believe me? Go to one of the various fansites and look at the mods, they are all 2d images. (Here is a good example: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122539) Now that said you only have the ability to change the textures not the actual 3d-model.

Now Civ4 is running the same engine and all of the game files are written in Python and XML, two very popular languages. (Microsoft is going to be using xml to store stuff in the next version of MS Office). Both of them are easy to learn. Also since Civ4 will be running the same 3d engine as Pirates! you will be able to change textures galor. (It is 43576476x10^453 times easier then playing with palletes)

Your probably thinking: "Changing textures? Big deal, thats how we made the African Warrior for Civ3, you surely can't really do anything with this..."
Changing textures is a very very very big deal. For this I would recommend looking at Rome: Total War. The fans have probably made millions of diffrant type of things based off of the same model. Here is another "far" annalogy. Pretend Civ3 was actually using a 3d engine where every unit was layed out onto a plane, each unit we hace made have just been a diffrant texture of that same plane. I know it's not a very good example but hey it kind of works.

Now lets compare Civ3 as it shipped to Civ4 as it shipped in terms of moddability:
Civ3:
Negatives:
Editor absolutly sucked, nearly useless.
Palletes are the hugest pain in the @$$.
Everything was hardcodded.

Positives:
Graphics were fairly easy to change.

Civ4:
Negatives:
We do not know how to add 3d models.
You will have to learn how to program.

Positives:
Graphics will be fairly easy to change.
Python makes anything possible
XML is easy to change (Nothing Hardcodded)
No Palletes!

Why would anyone want to stay with Civ3? :eek:

This will probably be the first time I will not buy Civ on the day it comes out.

I will be waiting and lurking at this site. I am not convinced that they are improving the game at all.

I'm interested in learning how to program. I just can't find a good tutorial on how to. :)

I'm interested in learning how to program. I just can't find a good tutorial on how to. :)
Heres one on our very own forums: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97183

How dificult could be for Firaxis to sell a package of software that can be used to edit and mod Civ 4? It can be a little bit expensive, but not out the reach of much of the people. I think that is a good solution.

what is MoO3? is it free??
can someone send me a link to the info?

MoO3 is "Master of Orion III," the third installment of the "Master of Orion" series. It's not free, but it shouldn't be too expensive now as it's been out for quite a while.

oh so its not something for civ3?

what is MoO3? is it free??
can someone send me a link to the info?
No it is not free, but it is very very cheap. It is a perfect example of what people fear most with Civ4.

Moo2 was one of the highest rated, best selling games of all time. I played as much or more then Civ2.

Moo3 was supposed to be a upgrade to this line by adding new fancy graphics and so on. In most peoples mind they ruined the franchise.

At Fry's (the largest local computer shop) Moo2 is still out selling Moo3, and Moo3 even with it's fancier graphics is now a 10.00 title, while crusty old Moo2 is going for 15.00.

If I was to go on and describe just how unhappy I am with Moo3 and how I really feel about what they did to this GREAT game I'd be looking at as long a BAN as the moderators would be willing to hand out for potty language.
Suffice it to say that I still play moo2, while moo3 stills on the shelf never to be installed again. I could take it to a used book store and trade it in for some books... but I'm not sure I'm willing to inflict this garbage on someone else.

Want a great space game? Check Moo2.
Want a horrible, but moderately attractive one, get Moo3.
Galactic Civilizations isn't bad either.

Hm, but each civ3 unit isnt one texture, unless you mean that the unit itself in civ4 will be the entire sceleton of it, and so if you just use one image (as in a civ2 unit graphic) the sceleton, which is programmed to make its moves, will do the rest of the work for you.
But is it really THAT straightforward? :hmm:

I have a HUGE problem with Civ4 being 3d, since I just don't like it, and stayed out of games categories that are 3d. From the looks so far, the units are good looking, but I don't like the perspectives. Currently, 3d still looks quite ugly in my opinion and the best 3d turmed to 2d(in games like Civ3, or Fallout Tactics-judge as you like, but the graphics on that game rocked!-) is much better on the eye compared to 3d that's still 3d in the final version.

I see no point in going 3d, they could have stayed in 2d for another 10 years or so for units, till 3d and machines to run high polygon models will be available for the masses. Perhaps it has to do with the companies that produce 3d-grafix cards, don't know.

As for if it will be more moddable, I believe it will be. Anything would though, coming after civ3, you gain from your mistakes and try to improve them. That does not explain for a moment why they had to go 3d for it. I'm sure XML, python scriptin etc., could be done while they retained 2d in units and other basic graphics.

A good thing for those that'll use it, will be that it will be more accesible to other online communities that have a clue of how to include .3ds series of files(eg. animations) in games as it is said it will require. Also will be available for Gmax probably(and it better!).

However this doesn't change the fact it's less good looking than 2d, in my opinion. Anyway, fans should press for monthly 3d unit updates for free and then more on expansions through polls(which unit the fans want us to do next) like we have now with Kinboat and aaglo, but official this time--if it will not be possible for the masses to mod it.

Also, since textures seem to be the crucial think, they'll better provide a tool to convert Poser(at least since version 4 and above), since many of us know how to create these(and many are available).

I also expect many innovations since they go 3d, like being able to have new attacks for units(eg, if you want to do a Trek mod, flyby or ramming attacks), else the few advantages of 3d will not be utilised.

Personally, I have many mods I want to do for civ3(about 20), so I'll stick to it for the moment.

I agree with flamescreen in regards to 3D. I wish they would have waited until Civ5 for 3D. As I said in a similar thread, in five years machines should be able to handle multiple, higher polygon models.

Regarding texturing, here's the deal with 3D models and textures. If you have a 3D model of a Spraunce class destroyer, there is no amount of texturing that will make it look like, say, the battleship Bismark. Changing textures work just fine for human models, but when it comes to machines, you need different models. I sure hope Civ4 unit modding isn't restricted to textures only.

Now I have no problem working with 3D units, because that's what I do right now to make the Flic animations. My beef is that models will have to have alot less polygons, to work in the game, thus making them blocky and losing nice smooth, rounded edges. Textures can improve a model's appearance to an extent.

I am given a little hope with the 3D change, though. Forgive me for plugging another game, which I am not trying to do, but check out the link I provided below for the "Cold War Crisis" mod for Command and Conquer Generals. The textures are fabulous, and make those low poly models look awesome. I'm not sure of the polygon limit of models for the game, but I know it can't be too high, as you can crank out alot of units.

http://www.cold-war-crisis.de/wbboard/portal.php

The more I see CivIV, the more I fear they're taking the wrong direction with it. First of all, the fact it's 3D now means that no matter how much effort they put into avoiding the game lag at the latter ages, it'll be slow as hell. There's no way a computer can handle animating so many 3D stuff and run the game quickly. Anyway, they're already announcing the Epic game will be a tad slower than that of CivIII :(
Speaking of computers and 3D, I know for sure my cumputer won't be able to handle the game. It meets the basic requirements, but it's a bit far from the recommended ones. And if this turns out to be at least a bit similar to SimCity4, then this game is ruined: I used to be able to play SC3 with no problems, but as soon as the last one came out, it ran very, very slowly on my computer, even though I surpassed the recommended requirements.
However, the graphics do not convince me at all: it seems they are trying to imitate that cartoonish look which seems to be so attractive in games nowadays, similar to the ones in Warcraft III. I don't need any fancy graphics to enjoy the game, just some good ideas. It seems the focus now is on the former, though
And who said making units will be as simple as changing textures? As vingrjoe said, there's no way you could make a destroyer look like the Bismark Battleship with some texture change. And the same would go to many units as well, not only mechanical. You can't make a musketman look like a warrior, an archer or a spearman just changing textures on it, unless you want a less than perfect result.

That said, I still think the game is adding some interesting and needed concepts, like the flexible tech tree and governments, but from what I've been reading so far, they are not original at all: you had similar posibilities in Alpha Centauri. Nevertheless, that could make me want to try this game at least once :mischief:

Have any of you bothered to read the modding section of the Pre-release info page? Have you bothered to listen to the parts of the interviews that address modding? CivIV is going to be more moddable than CivIII.

All right, it's true I missed this part, but it is only a paragraph among dozens that promise better gameplay. However good modding tools are also about graphic and animation editing, and this, already difficult in civ3, is becoming almost impossible. I don't want to imagine what a fantasy or futuristic mod will look like with marines...

By the way I have an additional (slight) criticism about the lack of realism. It seems that in civ4 you will be able to combine different governments, economical systems, religions etc. But society, politics, economy are not independent, no matter if you use a conservative theory, like sociological structuralism, or a marxist theory. Thus in the game you will be able to have a monarchy with communistic ("socialist" is more precise) economy, or a modern representative government with feudalism system, possibilities which are truly impossible, since they refer to completely different historical situations. In addition the available choices are not always valid.

Those aspects are very annoying to someone with knowledge of sociology or history, even though they could be interesting in gameplay. Previous civilization versions didn't claim that much realism. Governments were still there, but they looked more stereotypical and all could see that. But the new system tries to mimic reality in a fictional way.

You know one of the biggest reason's they went to 3d, is to make it easier for them to make stuff. So they don't have to turn a 3d model down to 8 2d sides. In fact it's easier for them to add stuff to the game.

Also some people are gripping about how gameplay is better then graphics and would prefer Civ3 graphics but then we have people complaing about how they won't be able to make units. Seems like graphics matter now.

I like their move to 3d and whole-heratly support it.

Personally, I find the graphics shown in the Civ4 screenshots hideously ugly. The first thing I'd like to do if I get Civ4 is to get rid of those graphics and replace them with something better. ;)

Do you know of any good gMax tutorials, vbraun? I have gMax, but still can't figure it out. :crazyeye:

Do you know of any good gMax tutorials, vbraun? I have gMax, but still can't figure it out. :crazyeye:
No, you should search around for some though.

If I was to go on and describe just how unhappy I am with Moo3 and how I really feel about what they did to this GREAT game I'd be looking at as long a BAN as the moderators would be willing to hand out for potty language.
Suffice it to say that I still play moo2, while moo3 stills on the shelf never to be installed again. I could take it to a used book store and trade it in for some books... but I'm not sure I'm willing to inflict this garbage on someone else.
As I've said before. The latest fan patch for Moo3 made it far better than any space game I ever played. Including Moo2. If you really didn't want the game you could mail to Shiro or somebody.

As far as texturing the models or creating new ones, you guys are worrying way too much. Like I said, if a lame game like Freedom Forces could have thousands of models and even more textures designed for it by fans, not professionals only, and that was quite some time ago, then Civ4 should have no problem either, especially with the immense amount of fans who are willing of mod it. Relax guys. If you're worried about the modding, just stop. If you don't care for 3-d for some other reason then that's your choice. The more I read this thread, the more I want to buy it right away.

Civ3 vs Civ4, a modding analogy:

Say Civ3 is an old-school muscle car. It's got a turbo v8, a ton of horsepower, does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds, whatever.

Civ3's design is common, just improved from previous models. The good thing about this is, learn how to crank here, wedge there - bada boom, bada bing - you just added 10 more horsepower. Don't like the shape of the nose? Want to add a spoiler? No problem, some simple metal shaping and a quick spot weld & paint job - sleeker looking body. Excellent.

Now there's Civ4. It's got a hybrid engine, it's half computerized, the body basically plastic. Sure, the engine is more efficient, the computer can be tweaked by some reprogramming, and the plastic cuts weight down, but...wtf? No gear head knows about electric motors, computer programming, and plastic molding - not with out schooling anyway. Their knowledge came from gut & grime in the garage. And they don't have the special tools (ie- programs) that can only do one job. The days of making huge mods via a simple wrench & a couple beers are over.

Maybe Civ4 has more to offer in the long run, but most players are those from the days of Civ's 1 & 2, where standard programs were all you needed to make your own mods. We're not saying Civ4 doesn't have more to offer - we're saying that it's no longer a viably moddable game. That's why you will see many people save their hard earned cash to stick with a game they already love, but can actually still improve. And I, for one, have thought of many mod ideas that I've yet to see done - and I don't mean scenario-settings, but ways of using the editor. So don't tell me that Civ3 has a horrible editor. It's leaps & bounds above most other games. It may not compete with Civ4's - but it's universally friendly to the average computer gamer.

they're already announcing the Epic game will be a tad slower than that of CivIII Just what I like to hear.

@sourboy - your analogy makes no sense whatso ever.

In terms of modding Civ3 is no where near a muscle-car. It more closely resembels a VW bug then anything.

Have you ever wanted the AI to use land transports? Have you ever wanted to add canals? Have you ever wanted more then 31 civs? Have you ever wanted to add a new unit ability? Have you ever wanted to have more then 1 Golden-age? Have you ever wanted to get rid of infinite movment from rail? Have you really ever wanted to walk out of the restrictive framework that Civ3 is?

Civ3 is more like a jail then a muscle car. BTW, probably half of those ideas you have for scenarios will not be possible becasue of the restrictive Civ3 editor.

Programming is only hard for those who make it hard.

Well, I wouldn't dare to say CivIV will be more moddable in those aspects than CivIII at this moment.

Will it be more possible that those options will be taken into account in the new editor? Yes. Do you know for sure those options will be actually available now? No. So I think it's not a good time to start giving arguments using those "facts"

I think Shiro created this thread to be a place for a discussion like this one, rather as a place to discuss what people would mod for; Civ3 or Civ4. However, I do agree with Sourboy on this one.

Programming is hard for those who do not understand it, or just don't care.

Some people, like you, want to make the jump from Civ3. Others, myself included, want to stay with Civ3 and mod easily, rather than learn to program. To each his own.

Will it be more possible that those options will be taken into account in the new editor? Yes. Do you know for sure those options will be actually available now? No. So I think it's not a good time to start giving arguments using those "facts"
You have access to the game files. Everything is moddable from the start.

Some people, like you, want to make the jump from Civ3. Others, myself included, want to stay with Civ3 and mod easily, rather than learn to program. To each his own.
Your missing out on your chance to learn a skill that you can get a job on, and what better way to learn it, but with Civ?

Just remeber, you get what you work for.

No, I think it is pointless learning a skill like that for an overglorified board game. If I want to learn to program, I will find something more important to learn it for. A job with programming does not appeal to me, so that doesn't change my opinions at all. On top of all that, back to the subject, I don't like the looks of Civ4 anyway.

Yes actually from the screen shots I have seen I dislike the way civ 4 looks, the leaderheads, sure the "do" more, but I do not like the way the models look. Nor do I like the way the units look. Or the feel. It could change, its not final yet. But I doubt it will. The more I think about it, the more I like civ 3. But I cannot decide which is better until I play it for myself
I wish they came out with one more expansion pack for c3....

No, I think it is pointless learning a skill like that for an overglorified board game. If I want to learn to program, I will find something more important to learn it for. A job with programming does not appeal to me, so that doesn't change my opinions at all. On top of all that, back to the subject, I don't like the looks of Civ4 anyway.
"Overglorified board game". May I use that against you in the future? afterall this is a forum dedicated to this "Board Game".

I'm probably not going into programing either. But I like it, and will program my entire life, mainly for fun.

No, I think it is pointless learning a skill like that for an overglorified board game. If I want to learn to program, I will find something more important to learn it for. A job with programming does not appeal to me, so that doesn't change my opinions at all. On top of all that, back to the subject, I don't like the looks of Civ4 anyway.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

VBraun: Unlike you, I Effin' HATE programming with a passion that mere words can't even begin to describe. The only programming language I ever learned anything for was Visual BASIC, only (surprise, surprise) to have it become totally obsolete in a few years, and none of the other languages (C++, Python, etc) were anywhere near it. Besides, it took three weeks to do in BASIC what I could do in 1 minute with the Civ III editor. As for your earlier argument about more modability, I have three words: Steph's Strategic Simulation. When it is finished it will have all the pros of Civ III AND Civ IV without any of the cons, and guess what? I can use all the graphics I made for Civ III and I don't have to learn about snake programming either.

VBraun: Unlike you, I Effin' HATE programming with a passion that mere words can't even begin to describe. The only programming language I ever learned anything for was Visual BASIC, only (surprise, surprise) to have it become totally obsolete in a few years, and none of the other languages (C++, Python, etc) were anywhere near it. Besides, it took three weeks to do in BASIC what I could do in 1 minute with the Civ III editor.
Fair enough. You work for what you get.
As for your earlier argument about more modability, I have three words: Steph's Strategic Simulation. When it is finished it will have all the pros of Civ III AND Civ IV without any of the cons, and guess what? I can use all the graphics I made for Civ III and I don't have to learn about snake programming either.
But it won't be a civ game and will probably never live to up to the quality that Firaxis produces, by the time SSS is done we will probably hit civ5. (No offense to Steph what so ever, infact I will probably play SSS and will try and follow its development)

I'm sorry to have triggered some kind of fierce reaction from you. I meant no offesnse whatso ever. :)

By now I'm probably hated by all pro-Civ3ers.

Quite frankly, I think it's still too early to pass any final judgment on Civ4. Though I won't buy it right away, I'm quite intrigued by Civ4. I'll admit that I'm a bit skeptical of some of its "features" (such as its "religions" features). But from what I gather from the information that is released, Civ4 will offer a lot of possiblities.

Of course, there's still the matter of exactly what "extra" one would need to actually modify anything in Civ4. I have absolutely no skill in any (even the most basic) 3D modelling programs and programming language might as well be written in heiroglyphics. Mayan heiroglyphics. One thing for sure - it's going to put MS Paint modders like me out of business. :crazyeye:

What if Civ4 came with a Civ3 type editor? Would you guys be more intreseted?

What if Civ4 came with a Civ3 type editor? Would you guys be more intreseted?

Possibly, if (A) the game doesn't suck, (B) I can import my Civ III units (Or somehow import stuff directly from Bryce 5 or Poser 5), and (C) ALL of the expansion packs have been released. No point in spending ~$180 when you can just spend $60, IMO. That said, I probably won't even buy Civ IV until 2008 (if at all) and won't start modding until then.

But it won't be a civ game and will probably never live to up to the quality that Firaxis produces, by the time SSS is done we will probably hit civ5.
Well, I work on it alone during my limited free time, among other projects, and I'm not a professional game developper.

They have a time, they have money, they have time, they are professionals... I sincerely hope they can work faster and better than me, or they really need to rethink their carrier!

This being said, if one of you is a wealthy man with a fortune he wants to invest, I will be very happy to take the money to work full time on SSS, and even try to build a small team to help.

Steph, have you put any feelers out ? I'm sure there has to be others in the community with programming skills and a desire to make a project such as yours. I mean, that's how several excellent mods are born with many games out there. I know what you're working on is more than just a mod, but I used it for lack of a better term.

As for the 2D paint artists out there: #1. Stick around #2. Find a copy of Adobe Photoshop and learn it. Those of us that will build and animate 3D models for the game (if possible with Civ4), will need you 2D artists for making textures to make our low-poly models look good.

The only way I can imagine being able to use Civ3 graphics in Civ4 will be through programming. You will not be able to just plug a Flicster animation into a game engine that uses the actual 3D model. With Civ3, it uses animations (flics) of the model. In Civ4, the game will use the actual model and not the flics of it.

Well, with 400+ Units already added to my "old" Civ3, totally changed graphics and rewritten tech-tree it would be plain stupid to change to IV the day it hits the shelves. Let's wait a year or so...

Good to know you modders will still be around, then.

One comment on leaderheads - is it just me or do all the previews indicate that they're all single era? In Soren's interview, he showed Ghandi and the Egyptian Queen, who were ancient era and he tried to trade Alphabet, again indicating we were in the ancient era. He then showed Louis of France, who was in Medieval clothing. Perhaps the demo he was using was rigged to show what they wanted to show, or alternatively, they are single-era leaderheads....

I believe they are not single era leaderheads. I believe there will be other eras cause I've read that if you meet Roosevelt in the ancient ages, you'll listen to certain military song with arrangements which fit that era, and I think it would be worthless to work just on the music and not on making the leaderheads themselves.

Most probably they started working on one era for each leaderhead (based from the pics they can get), and start working on the other eras from there. Or perhaps there won't be any definite eras (they have already announced that), and only the music will change to reflect the state of development of a civilization. I dunno

I'm stickin with Civ 3. I'll probably buy Civ 4, but won't make graphics for it,

ya, ill do that exact samething. I heard that the main unit utility would be 3ds max. this costs a fortune but i might get at a better price considering that ill be a junior in highschool next year. But ya, until then i will play CIV 4 but only make units for CIV 3 unless Poser unit making is compatible.

ya, ill do that exact samething. I heard that the main unit utility would be 3ds max. this costs a fortune but i might get at a better price considering that ill be a junior in highschool next year. But ya, until then i will play CIV 4 but only make units for CIV 3 unless Poser unit making is compatible.
Even the educational version is $650.00 to $1000.00 depending on where you live, where you go to school and so on.
The full retail version s 3500.00 (not including plugins)
http://www.discreet.com/buy/
Maya Unlimited (which is still not all inclusive) is 7000.00, for example it does not include studio tools
http://store.alias.com/

Programming:
I'm not bothered by programming. I do it all the time in a variety of languages. I think it leaves the game out there where some very serious bugs can be introduced. Unless they include debugging features, which they won't, many mods will be nasty crash monsters. Way more then now. I've taken programming classes, taught programming classes, participated in programming contests and judged some... you'd be amazed at how many programmers make major mistakes. Now roll this down to the hobby level, and it does not get better. But over all this is a minor concern to me, as I think it can be worked around... with alot of frustration on the mod makers part.


Graphics
I will be deeply unhappy if it requires 3d studio or Maya to make units.
Game modding is a hobby. It should not require more then hobby-class tools. To my mind hobby class means less then 300.00 in tools... ideally less then 150.00 to get started. Bryce = 50. Paintshop = 80. all else civ3 needs is free. And even Bryce is not needed, just very handy. Replace with Poser for 189 if you want humans. (again not needed, just handy)
Now consider you can get poser, bryce, paintshop, DeepExploration (for mesh twiddles/converstions), Truespace 3.2 all full retail versions for around 1/2 the price for a barebones educational copy of 3d studio max, or more accurately 10% of the price (retail vs. retail)
And, with civ4, you will need the same paint programs, plugins, mesh converters, and so on and on and on. It will be more money then most of us paid for our first several cars just for the privelege of being allowed to have a unit making hobby.
As for 3d vs 2d... I don't care. I've got a very beefy computer, so they are all the same speed. And, I enjoy some 3d games (Age of Emprires, etc)..
To me this is THE issue with civ4. I do not think that a modder should have to make this sort of investment nor even have to learn this level of complexity in their tools.

To me this is THE issue with civ4. I do not think that a modder should have to make this sort of investment nor even have to learn this level of complexity in their tools.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. That is the biggest problem I saw when I found out about the 3-d graphix. I think that Firaxis is aware of this and may attempt some alternate way to do units to save some change and keep modders around. They are still working with a lot of the modders in the production of the game. And I know this has been brought to their attention. I was one of them sending them messages about it last year. ;)

I agree with tjedge. I dont Firaxis would be that stupid. Most civers mod and alienating this part of the "civ experience" would drive hundreds away from CivIV. Even if they dont give a $hit about the gamers, they are still out to make as much money as possible and requiring this much to mod would cost them big.

I wouldnt be surprised if civ4 has something less than civ3 (eg only one era lh's), so as to keep civ3 unique. Its the same old trick they did with civ3-civ2, only for that they kicked away a vastly more important feature: the event-file.

(sorry for keeping on mentioning the event-files, but to me this really is what makes civ3 inferior to civ2, when it could have been really the best game in the series by far).
Personally i am stuck with making 2d graphics for the game, since i dont want to pay for Poser, and no one is making a human model for the freeware programs.

Don't apologize about it. That's a good point which I too felt Civ3 fell short, but I think Civ3 fell short far more than just the Event-files. I don't believe Firaxis will take another step down though. Since they are listening to modders ans fans alike, according to the interviews I've read and from my own experience, they are doing their best not to screw up Civ 4.

why do the always choose Cleopatra to be the leader of Egypt?
She is a Greek, with a Greek name, who symobizes the fall of Egypt, or the final fall.

Because she is the most famous. It's marketing, not reality. Sorry.

Isn't it Hatshepsut this time?

the final fall, perhaps, but Cleopatra is hardly asymbol of decadence; the ptolemaic egypt of her time was rather strong. Also if you think that the battle of Actium could have easily been won if it wasnt for the disastrous errors in planning then it wouldnt be hard to imagine ptolemaic egypt surviving for some time, and who knows how things might have evolved.
Egypt before the ptolemaioi had been reduced to a mere province of the persian empire, so it was in a far worse state before Cleopatra i trust.

Isn't it Hatshepsut this time?

Yes it is Queen Hatshepsut this time. I was also rather intrigued that they got rid of Joan of Arc and that they also have Qin Shi Huang Di this time. I suppose Firaxis has finally decided to make somewhat of a step forward. ;)

I despise the look of the leaderheads though. If possible, I'd replace them all with customized leaderheads.

One thing that does have me baffled, though, is their decision on using Hinduism as representative of Polytheism, while totally ignoring Sun Cults or animistic religions. And why's "Confucianism" there? It's not even a "religion". :rolleyes: Quite frankly, I find the way they apply the whole "religion" aspect kind of insulting, but it doesn't bother me too much. If modding's easy in Civ4, I'll change all of that too. ;)

I agree with Tjedge1 about Cleopatra; IMHO, the creators went with "best known to the average person" than "best person to represent Egypt." They were probably struggling for well known female leaders of the ancient era, hence get Cleopatra in ahead of Rameses.

In terms of what Bjornlo said, I agree totally with him. Civ III has a vibrant community (particularly at Civfanatics) because of its "moddability" for want of a better word. Civ III is not just one game, it's several different games - I can play a WarHammer mod, then a Star Trek one, followed by a game based around WW2, then one centred around Native America before 1492. Once you lose that variety, you lose something of the lifespan of the game. Four years after the initial release, there's still always something new being released for Civ III every day, which helps keep it fresh. In fact, people like me enjoy modding for Civ III at least as much (if not more) than actually playing!!

I share Bjornlo's concern about programming; though I'm not at all versed on programming myself.

For me, perhaps an "improved Civ III" would have been much better rather than a complete revamp, but I will be amongst those buying the game asap - if only to have a race with CivArmy to be the first to bring out a new leaderhead for CivIV - software permitting ;) .

I am happy with Civ3, I think the Conquests expansion really made it the ultimate game. Honestly, if it weren't for the mods, and the fact that thanks to you R8XFT, and of coarse Unexisted, I mod myself, I would never had played Civ3 this long. The easy modding of Civ3 Conquests is what made the fan community this large. Honestly, I've seen 3-D games, and all of them have small fanbases and almost no fan content thats worth talking about. I know what skinning is, and trust me, it aint that impressive. Unless Civ4 has the easy modding of Civ3 Conquests, I won't be making the jump, and I'd encourage everyone else here to do the same.

Yes it is Queen Hatshepsut this time. I was also rather intrigued that they got rid of Joan of Arc and that they also have Qin Shi Huang Di this time. I suppose Firaxis has finally decided to make somewhat of a step forward. ;)

I despise the look of the leaderheads though. If possible, I'd replace them all with customized leaderheads.

One thing that does have me baffled, though, is their decision on using Hinduism as representative of Polytheism, while totally ignoring Sun Cults or animistic religions. And why's "Confucianism" there? It's not even a "religion". :rolleyes: Quite frankly, I find the way they apply the whole "religion" aspect kind of insulting, but it doesn't bother me too much. If modding's easy in Civ4, I'll change all of that too. ;)

I agree about the leaderheads. I liked them much better the way they are in CIV III. Those leaderheads don't give the perspective of real people like CIV III leaderheads did which is why i like them.

@varwnos: sure it was a Persian colony, but it didnt win independence. It just got conquered by someone else. And then was ruled by Greeks who didnt really know anything about Egyptian culture. And werent considered Egyptian by Egyptians, which is why durring her time the Ptolemaiois were on the list of the rulers of Egpyt. And I dont see her time as ruler as any sort of golden age for Egypt. Ramesses II in my opinion is a faaaarrr better choice than the Greek ruler Cleo.
I think the reason they chose Hatshepsut, over another Pharoh is because they want more female leaders, so they will dig around history for them.
Atleast I thought that was the case in Civ 3. Joan of Arc should have been an army leader not a leaderhead. She never ruled France. And I forget who they had for Russia, but if you want to go on name recognition, I say Stalin is more recognizable, even Peter the Great of Ivan the terrible. oh it is Catherine isnt it?

As for the heads in Civ 4 I dislike them. Big heads on child like bodies?? all with a cartoonish look. So far Hatshepsut looks the more cartoonish and worst in my opinion

I also dislike the cartoonish look of the leaderheads, as well as that of the game as a whole. But I thought I've already mentioned it quite a lot, so I'll stop now ;)

Personally i am stuck with making 2d graphics for the game, since i dont want to pay for Poser, and no one is making a human model for the freeware programs.

You are using Blender right? In the model repository, there is a free 1000 tri human model, and it is very good.


As for the 3d models, I am hoping they will only be required to be of a certain format... (probably .3ds, maybe .obj). This would mean any program that could convert to .3ds or .obj files would be a legitimate tool.

Really, exporters, I don't think, are incredibly hard to write in python, because Blender has tons of them. I will further keep my fingers crossed for someone to write an exporter for Blender.... Or perhaps pony up a good sum of cash as an incentive. ;)

Well, I my Windows machine will not run CivIV; it runs CivIII just adequately. If there's a mac version of CivIV, I may buy it. But, I really don't like to look of it at all. If I didn't trust the Civilization name, I won't even concider buying it.

If I do end up buying it, I'd only create for it if I could use the tools I have now.