Playing vanilla CivIII v1.29f, I have often wondered about the effectiveness of libraries, universities and scientists in improving research times. Other than the cultural points, that is.

Let us assume that my tech slider is at and remains at 50% for the sake of this discussion. And yes, I know about the 0% Research strategy and I do apply it at times, but at other times, it does not fit the game I am playing.

Often, when I "discover the secret of" or purchase Education, I will start nearly all of my cities on the task of building Universities almost immediately. Most of them will be completed within 10 turns of each other. However, as they are completed (even up into the 14th or 15th one) it does not seem to effect the amount of time it takes to research the tech I am CURRENTLY working on. Do the bonuses get applied to the next tech?

Other times, as an experiment, I have gone in and placed a scientist in every possible city and waited to notice any difference in research times. Again, nothing negligible.

It seems the only way to truly improve the research time of my techs (without using the tech slider) is to have a large number of cities (20-30+), regardless of whether they have libraries, universities or scientists. Am I just not applying them properly?

A library increases the science output for that city by 50% a university for another 50% for a 100% increase in that cities science output. It's a no brainer that they are useful. Income is allocated at the end of turn unless it changes during the AIs turn so they don't provide a benefit until the next turn. (turn changes after the builds.)

Scientists only add 1 or 2 beakers (i forget how many for vanilla). Not really enough to make an impact but it can help if you have enough of them. Tax collectors are more useful in vanilla/ptw.

Adding a couple universities on the same turn might not be enough to impact the current research. By that time, the techs are starting to get expensive. If you don't believe they are useful, try a game without them and see how long it takes you.

Really, does someone know exactly how much tech\money are added with tax collectors and scientists in vanilla?

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(10 characters)

@Pentium
U mean 1 for every 10 citizens? Because if they only generate one the whole game what is the use? A single piece of gold is a waste :(

Each specialist produces 1 beaker/gold/happy face.

Each specialist produces 1 beaker/gold/happy face.
Per turn ;)

Your entire civ has an inviseble "TechBox", that works the same way as a production box in a single city.
Each time you press "next turn" all the beakers that all your citys produce will be added to your TechBox untill it is full, then you produced a new tech, like a city would have produced a unit when its production box is full with shields.
Adding a library to all your city's (not counting corruption) does the same to your tech building as a factory does to a city's unit building.

Remember that no matter what you do, it will never take less than 4 turns to produce a tech, even when your civ produces more beakers each turn than what a tech costs.
If such is the case, then you do not need more library's other than for culture.

But you must make such decisions based on what you plan to do in the future, not on what you need right now. Like all things in civ, or any strategy game, if you need something right now, you SHOULD have thought about it in the past.

well if you're making more beakers than needed you can adjust the amount of research to optimize that, allowing you more gold per turn in the process and that allows you to have more improvements as well as a larger military.

i love having a library and university in as many cities as possible so i can slide research back and make more gold. and the internet is great, a research facility in every city on the same continent and since i play on pangea maps...just about every city i have gets one and its a big boost in research.


thought i wish the slider were more incremental, like every 5% instead of 10%.

Librarys and Universities are a must. Lots of culture 3 & 4 each per turn as well as a massive 100% combined research bonus. An absoulte must.

Remember that no matter what you do, it will never take less than 4 turns to produce a tech, even when your civ produces more beakers each turn than what a tech costs.
If such is the case, then you do not need more library's other than for culture.

Is it an absolute cap then?! Never ever will you be able to research in 3?

Is it true then as well that you can do a single scientist research and research a future tech in 50? Geez.... Thats strange. If you are big enough to get techs in 1 turn, you should get them in 1 turn.... Geepers....

Librarys and Universities are a must. Lots of culture 3 & 4 each per turn as well as a massive 100% combined research bonus. An absoulte must.

An absolute must for your core cities, anyways (if you want to be tech leader.)

Outside the core area(s), the effects are reduced and/or are minimal. Do you really want a university and library in a city that would only produce 3 (doubled to 6) research coins? The maintenance for those 2 buildings equals that amount - meaning that it is a wash.

Is it an absolute cap then?! Never ever will you be able to research in 3?

Is it true then as well that you can do a single scientist research and research a future tech in 50? Geez.... Thats strange. If you are big enough to get techs in 1 turn, you should get them in 1 turn.... Geepers....

Yes it is- I've had times when I cut my spend back from normal to 70-80% back to 20 or even 10% because it still wouldn't finish in less then 4 turns.

Note, senerios are not bound by this limit, as i discovered playing RAR and found I could finish techs in 1 turn.

A library increases the science output for that city by 50% a university for another 50% for a 100% increase in that cities science output.

A 50% increase twice is equal to times is .5^2 not an 100% increase or a doubling. It is still worth doing though.

City A produces 100 science, so:

100x 1.5 (Library)=150 Science
100x 1.5 (Library)x 1.5 (Univ)=225 science produced.
100x1.5 (Library)x 1.5 (Univ)x 1.5 (Research Lib)=337.5 Science

A university only adds another 50% of the base science, not including the bonus from a library.

Note, senerios are not bound by this limit, as i discovered playing RAR and found I could finish techs in 1 turn.


Seems a shame i feel the normal game should allow one turn research. I certainly miss it at times.

A 50% increase twice is equal to times is .5^2 not an 100% increase or a doubling. It is still worth doing though.

City A produces 100 science, so:

100x 1.5 (Library)=150 Science
100x 1.5 (Library)x 1.5 (Univ)=225 science produced.
100x1.5 (Library)x 1.5 (Univ)x 1.5 (Research Lib)=337.5 Science

Your scenario is more than doubled.

100x library=150
100x library+univ=200
100x lib+univ+research lab=250

k-a-bob has it right, the benefits of all improvements is on the base production, so science is done as described, but so is the marketplace, bank, stock exchange combo. 100 income, goes to 150, then 200, then 250.

In terms of long term strategy, I find the benefits of libraries both a) logarythmic and b) more hidden by the mechanics of the management screens.

With money and happiness, the effects of temples and marketplaces (and the subsequent improvements) take place immediately. With Science, there's an additional layer which you can fool yourself into thinking it's not helping when it is. You have all your science, you build some libraries, and then you find at best you'll be able to learn your next advance 1 turn sooner and you were hoping for a bigger improvement. This is simply because you are looking at the final number and not the equation and thinking that after all that work you should be getting more benefit than that. In Civ4 I hope they have a better display of total research and a better display of how the science works for power gamers.

The effects of science improvements are noticable and needed, but they are hidden by the interface of the game. I personally find that while it's not a huge improvement immediately, over time it is a tremendous improvement. You just have to trust the numbers and the game and don't let the turns to complete the advance get you down :)

Also remember Copernicus, Newtons, and SETI. ;)

Also remember Copernicus, Newtons, and SETI. ;)

A good way to decide which city to put them in is to go to the F1 screen, set luxuries to 100% then sort by commerce. Of course, shield output my not make the highest commerce city the best choice but if you have a spare leader, it doesn't matter. Oh... don't forget to put the sliders back the way they were ;)

The effects of science improvements are noticable and needed, but they are hidden by the interface of the game. I personally find that while it's not a huge improvement immediately, over time it is a tremendous improvement. You just have to trust the numbers and the game and don't let the turns to complete the advance get you down :)
One way to test this would be to sell off all of your libs, unis and research labs...then take a look at how many turns the research has increased. Of course, you'd want to shut down and reload afterward or you might be stuck with 50-turn research in the modern age. :p

well, if you have a main city producing say, 15 shields, then that gets a library, no doubt

if you're scientific, then most cities will get a library. you can afford your 10 best cities getting a university even

non scientific...universities...i only build them if the city is producing 20-25+ beakers after a library. very rare, capital not withstanding

over time they do add up

however, selective researching is also very beneficial

e.g don't research bronze working, don't research map making, don't research democracy or navigation, don't research nationalism or communism etc

alphabet, the wheel and masonry are the strongest at the start etc