Possibly incomplete form of the Constitution. Will retain the majority seen here, but may have several edits or additions.

We, the people of , in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Article A. Governing Rules
Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, such amendments that shall follow and lower forms of law that may be implemented. No rule shall be valid that contradicts these Articles, excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so.

[I]Section 1. CivFanatics Forums
The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatica can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto/correct any such items.

Article B. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Fanatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

Section 1. Political Parties and Slate Voting
Political parties and slate voting are banned from the democracy game.

Section 2. Citizen Groups
A group of citizens, that unite for a single cause, excluding elections is known as a citizen group. Citizen groups are encouraged and follow the spirit of the game.

Article C. The Government
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. These branches are responsible for the management of the game.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive Branch is headed by the President, the overall Leader of the land, and shall include a Council of Leaders, each of whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of the country. Any duties that are not given to a Leader is automatically assumed to be part of the Presidents duties, this includes management of the National Budget.

Section 1. Generals Office
The Generals Office is charged with management of all offensive and defensive units. They are also given the duty of tatical planning during war and the strategic planning of war. During times of both peace and war, the Generals Office is tasked with the management of the Nations Defense.

Section 2. Council of Culture
The Counselor of culture is charged with the movement and placement of settlers. They are also charged with the formation of boundaries and the monitoring of our culture levels. The building of wonders is also given to Council of Culture.

Section 3. Department of Foreign Affairs
Foreign Affairs is charged with the negotiation of treaties and all espionage related activities. They are also given the duty of exploration, and are given management over scouts and explorers. They are also charged with the management of all trade related activities.


Section 4. Office of Research and Development
The Office of Research and Development is given control over all worker related activities. They are also charged with our nations research and the domestic slider. The building of spaceship parts are also given to Research and Development.

Article E. The Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be made up of The House and the Mayors.

Section 1. The Mayors
A mayor is charged with the management and affairs of a single city. They are also charged with the defense and protection of there city. There duties include, but are not limited to: The rushing of improvements or units, the drafting of citizens, setting of build queues, and the allocation of special citizens (tax collectors, entertainers, etc.).

Section 2. The House
The house is formed by the citizenry, and is charged with the formation and passing of laws.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will be formed of three Leaders and is tasked with verifying legality of legislation, interpreting rules, and determining when violations occur. Each also has a specific area of additional responsibility.

Section 1. The Chief Justice
The Chief Justice is the overall head of the Judiciary and can fill in for either lower position. The Chief Justice is responsible for maintaining the legal books of the country and the mechanics of Judicial Procedure.

Section 2. The Judge Advocate
The Judge Advocate functions in a role of prosecution and attorney to the state when allegations of rulebreaking have been made.

Section 3. The Public Defender
The Public Defendant functions in the roll of defense for any and all accused citizens.

Article G. The Census and amending the Constitution
The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A simple majority of congress or 2/3 majority of Yes votes must be achieved for an amendment to pass. An amendment must pass a Judicial Review and be open for discussion for 72 hours before a poll may be posted. The poll must remain open for 48 hours.

Article H. Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

Article I. Turnchats
All irreversible game actions must progress during a scheduled chat (AKA a turnchat), which is played by the Designated Player. The Designated Player of a turnchat is decided upon by the President. The Designated Player is responsible for scheduling his/her turnchat.

Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
The next turnchat instruction thread must be stickied inside of the citizens forum. It will contain all instructions from the President and Council of leaders for the play of the save.

Section 2. Chat Logs and forbidden play of the save
Any game actions taken by the DP must be documented in a game play log (examples: Notes or chat log) and a summary at the end of the turnchat. Both must be made publicly available in a timely manner. A recent save of the game should be posted immediantly following the turnchat. The play of any turns, by any other person than the specified Designated player is strictly forbidden. However, a leader or mayor may carry out actions, that do not require the passing of a turn, with the Presidents pre-approval. These actions may include, but are not limited to: The setting of city queues, slider movements, initiation of trades, declarations of war, and research queues. Citizens may not initiate in any non-reversible actions.

Article J. The Election process
Elections shall decide who among the citizenry are trusted to manage the game. The President, Council of Leaders, Judiciary, and Mayors are all elected. Each of these poistions, excepting the Judiciary, shall have a deputy chosen by the winning citizen. The Election process shall be made up of Nominations, Debates, and the Elections themselves.

Section 1. The Election Office
The Election Office is appointed by the President and charged with the posting and carrying out of the election process (Nominations, Debates, and Election Polls).

Section 2. Nominations and Debates
Nominations shall be posted approximately 8 days before the end of the term, debates will last through the duration of the nominations. Nominations will be closed when the election polls start.

Section 3. Election Polls
Election Polls shall be posted approximately 4 days before the end of the term, and will be set to run for 3 days (72 hours). The candidate with the highest number of votes at the end of the 3 days is considered the winner. If two candidates tie, then a run-off poll, lasting 2 days (48 hours) is posted with just those two canidates.

Article K. Vacant Poistions
An official or Justice may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 week. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. If this period exceeds one week, then the deputy or pro-term may keep the power and duties of the office, unless they decide to gie it up. Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3 days in a thread related to their area without prior notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

Section 1. Judicial Absence's
If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for 3 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a new Chief Justice.

Here is a still incomplete Code of Laws:


Amendment A. Judicial Matters
Section 1. Judicial Review

Any citizen may call judicial review whenever a question of rule interpretation or clarification arises over a proposed or existing law.
Judicial Review is binding if 2 of 3 Judiciary members agree with the review.

Section 2. Public Investigations

No Member of the Judiciary may initiate or sponsor a Public Investigation.
A citizen may only be Investigated once per charge, per particular event and is innocent until proven guilty.
The Verdict of the Public Investigation is final and may not be appealed.
If a Member of the Judiciary is the Accused in a Public Investigation, they are immediately suspended for that case.
If a member of the judiciary is determined to be absent, or is the Accused in a Public Investigation, they may be replaced on a case-by-case basis by the Chief Justice. This replacement is for that case only. If the Chief Justice is under investigation, the President shall determine the replacement. This appointment may be subjected to a confirmation poll.
Section 3. Accusation

Any citizen may bring a charge against another citizen whom they believe has violated our body of law. The Accusation must contain the following: Names of the Accused and Accuser, Law(s) believed to have been violated, Time and location of violation, and a description of the violation.
An Accusation may be submitted to the Chief Justice VIA PM, or posted inside of the Judiciary thread.

Section 4. Investigation

The Judge Advocate shall investigate all charges brought to the Judiciary to determine their validity. This process shall be done in an expedious manner.
The Chief Justice shall post in the Judicial Thread that an investigation has commenced against the Accused. The first post of the investigation must contain the following: The name Accused and Accuser, the specifics of the charge, encourage citizens to PM any evidence to the Judge Advocate.
If the accused confirms the charges, and wishes to plead guilty at this point, the trial phase is skipped and the sentencing phase begins.
Once the investigation has concluded, the Judge Advocate shall present the Chief Justice and the Public Defender with the results of the investigation. If the Judiciary finds that the charge is valid, the case shall move to the Trial phase
If the Judge Advocate finds that the charge is not valid, the Accused and the Accuser are both notified by PM.
The Judge Advocate shall post in the Judicial Thread the results of their investigation, naming both the Accused and the Accuser. If the charge is considered not valid, this post shall include the evidence used to make that conclusion. If the charge is considered valid, this post shall include a link to the trial thread.
Section 5. Trial

The Chief Justice is in charge of all phases of the trial, and will make procedural rulings as needed. The Chief Justice shall create a thread in the Citizens Forum for the Trial The initial post shall contain the specific charge from the Judge Advocate and is titled "The People vs X", where X is the name of the Accused. The first post is reserved for the Judge Advocate to expand upon the charge and provide evidence. The second post is reserved for the Public Defender. The third post is reserved for the Accused. The Judge Advocate, Public Defender, and Accused also make the lasts posts to wrap up the trial.
Once 24 hours have passed after the thread was created, or after all three parties have posted or indicated they do not wish to post, the Chief Justice shall open the thread. All citizens may produce evidence or ask questions of all parties. All posts must be on topic, and show respect to all parties. The Accused may change their plea to Guilty at any point by posting this in the thread.
48 hours after the general discussion started, the Chief Justice shall create a Judgement poll for each law the accused is charged with violating.
Section 6. Judgement

The Chief Justice shall create a poll requesting the citizens to determine the Guilt or Innocence of the Accused. The poll shall have three options: Guilty, Innocent or Abstain. The post shall include the formal charge and a link to the discussion. Guilt is determined by a majority of the non-abstain votes. No discussion is permitted inside of the poll.
The poll shall be open for 2 days (48 hours). If, at the end of this time, the vote is tied, the Judiciary shall meet, examine the evidence, and determine Guilt or Innocence. If the accused is found Guilty, the case shall move to the Sentencing Phase.
Section 7. Sentencing

The Chief Justice shall create a poll to determine the sentence handed down to the guilty party. If there are multiple Guilty verdicts, the Chief Justice shall determine if multiple polls (one per charge) or a single, combined sentence poll shall be used.
The poll shall include options determined by the Chief Justice. The options shall be ranked in the order of most severe to the least severe. Tshe sentencing options the Chief Justice may use are: Impeachment, Final Warning, Public Apology, Warning, and No Punishment. The poll may not omit weaker sentences that currently present in the poll.
Once the poll has been closed, the Chief Justice shall determine the sentence for the accused. Each vote shall be determined as a vote for the option selected, and all less-severe options. The sentence selected shall be the most severe sentence that a majority of the citizens supported.
Section 8. Conclusion
The Chief Justice shall post a summary in the Judicial Log. The post shall include the formal charge(s), verdict(s) and sentence(s). The post shall include a link to the discussion thread and the sentencing poll(s).

Amendment B. Code of Laws Amendments
Amendments to the Code of Laws must receive the vote of a
plurality of the citizenry that choose to vote. The quorum for a citizen poll is
1/3 of the congress or simple majority of the house.
A Code of Laws amendment may also pass by receiving superplurality (double the votes for Yes than in any other option) support by the citizenry.
A CoL amendment citizen poll must be open for at least 48
hours for the amendment to take effect.

Amendment C. Polling Standards
Types of Polls

Polls fall into four categories: Official, Unofficial, Informational, and Misc.
Official Polls: A poll posted by the President or the Leader/Deputy. Are considered to be legally binding, and contain all the information to met the Code of Law requirements.
Unofficial Polls: A poll posted by any other citizen or a leader that duties do not include the topic of the poll. Are not legally binding, and may or may not contain all the information to meet the Code of Law requirements.
Informational: A poll posted by any citizen, that is not included inside of the duty of any certain official. May include, but is not limited to the following: Game Victory Type, Naming of Landmarks, etc. May or may not contain all the the information needed to meet the Code of Law requirements.
Misc.: Any poll that does not fall into one of the other three categories. It's legality is decided upon by the Chief Justice. May or may not contain all the the information needed to meet the Code of Law requirements.
A official poll may only be posted by the President or the Leader/Deputy of the respective department, as long as the topic of said poll falls under the Leader/Deputy's jurisdiction.
There are two types of Official Polls, Strategic and Tatical. A Tatical Poll, after two weeks of closure or meeting the census, will be deemed unofficial. A Strategic poll, after one term of closure or meeting the census, will be deemed unofficial.
In the case of the absence of an Official Poll, an Unofficial poll may be used to may gameplay decisions. However, Informational polls can not be used to make gameplay decisions.

Contents of a Poll
A Poll should contain all of the following:
A Link to the discussion thread
A link to the respective departments official thread.
A link to all other information effecting the topic of the poll
Must contain and Abstain option
An Official Poll must also contain wether it is Strategic Planning or Tatical Planning.
The topic of a poll should not be discussed inside of the thread, but rather discussed inside of it's respective discussion thread.

Amendment D. Information and Acquiring Information
Information relating to the saved game may be legally acquired by the following ways:
Loading up the save
A Information related thread (official department thread, or Power to the People related activites)
Chatlogs, Turnchats, or a DP summary
Discussion threads and Polls
You may not retire from the game inorder to obtain information.

The Power to the People Council
The Power to the People Council is a group of citizens, appointed by the President, that are charged with informing citizens of game related activities and happenings. These may include, but are not limited to:
An Official Information thread, that supplies game save information.
A thread detailing constitutional amendments, and how they effect the game.
Informing citizens of important polls or discussions

Amendment E. City and Unit Naming
City naming shall be handled by the elected Mayor of the city, a city name may not be changed after decided upon by a Mayor. Unit naming is handled by the Deputy General (Deputy to the Generals Office).

Amendment F. The National Budget
The National Budgets consists of our national treasury (lump sum of gold), but does not include our additional gold per turn. It should be compiled and posted by the President each turnchat. It must include a list of the funds required for rushes, upgrades, trades, and espionage. Any instruction that is not listed inside of the national budget is to be considered void. If the President decides to give certain elected officials a base sum of gold to use, then this must also be included within the national budget, with the maximum amount that can be used by that leader.

Amendment G. Play of the Save
All play of the save, inwhich a turn is passed is strictly forbidden. However, elected officials may initiate instructions, as long as a turn is not passed. After an elected officials actions are completed, they are to post the save inside of the most recent Turnchat Instruction Thread, with a list of all that was done.

The Glossery of Terms will contain all terms, abbrevations, and defintions used within the Constitution or Code of Laws. This is to aid in Judicial Reviews, and to lessen confusion on what certain amentments mean.



Congress: The most current active census. Taken by averaging the number of votes in the most recent elections.

Will of The People: The 'wants' of the registered citizens of the demogame. Usually confirmed by polls and discussions.

Simple Majority: 50.01% of the vote. Used in amending the constitution.

Slate Voting: A pre-arranged agreement among citizens to vote for a set of canidates in the recent elections.

Designated Player (DP): The citizen who is charged with the responsibility of playing a turnchat.

Census: A count of the active citizens inside of the game. Used when amending the constitution or Code of Laws.

Chat Logs: A log (or history) of a scheduled turnchat posted by the designated player.

Public Investigations: An investigation into a 'breaking' of a law.

Play of the Save: A term used to mean the action of passing a turn inside of the saved game.

Gameplay: All elements that are contained inside of the save. Does not include the elements that are DG oriented only.


This may also include examples of correct Polling Pratices and how the Census shall be determined.

Edited in the Code of Laws, with Polling Standards, Unit Naming, and Information related things. Please look above for the full Code.

I have mixed opinions on this proposal. Will the President be the defacto DP? The part about the winning citizen choisng a deputy is my main disagreement on this proposal since I still beleve that a deputy should be given to the runner up canidate.

I have mixed opinions on this proposal. Will the President be the defacto DP? The part about the winning citizen choisng a deputy is my main disagreement on this proposal since I still beleve that a deputy should be given to the runner up canidate.

The President will be the DP, unless he/she chooses someone else to be it. I've also attempted to lessen the length of turnchats (and chatlogs) by allowing leaders to load up the save and implement instructions that do not require the passing of a turn themself.

As for the part of the winning citizen choosing a deputy, it will remain that way. I am going to give deputies more power (first off by allowing them to post official polls). While this should increase the usefullness of the deputy poistions alittle, it also gives a deputy a chance to disobey and not coorporate with the leader. This can turn out to be diasterious, and as such I want a leader and deputy that will and can work together.. not apart.

Still have many updates to go.. here's what can be expected either later tonight or tommorow:


Vacant Poistions (Con.)
National Budget (COL)
Rules of Leader Turn Play (COL)
Chain of Command (Con.)
Turnchat/Turnchat Instruction Guidelines (COL)
Efficiency System (Con.)
Will of the People (COL)
Edit of Polling Standards (COL)
Possible Edit of The Election Process/Election Office (Con.)

No one except CG has any comments or suggestions? Come on guys, I know I couldn't have made this thing perfect.

Constitution:

1. Where does control of the "acquired" cities lie?

2. R&D says "domestic slider" -- which one is that? Or is it both?

3. Good work adding the language about allowing actions which don't "pass a turn".

4. As in Ravensfire's version, I most strongly disagree with requiring 2/3 majority to pass an amendment. This is particularily true in your version which doesn't even soften the blow by lowering the quorum requirement -- as written, this one requires 100% of the census to vote, or a higher winning percentage the fewer people vote. If that is not your intent, then please add the quorum provision.

Constitution:

1. Where does control of the "acquired" cities lie?

2. R&D says "domestic slider" -- which one is that? Or is it both?

3. Good work adding the language about allowing actions which don't "pass a turn".

4. As in Ravensfire's version, I most strongly disagree with requiring 2/3 majority to pass an amendment. This is particularily true in your version which doesn't even soften the blow by lowering the quorum requirement -- as written, this one requires 100% of the census to vote, or a higher winning percentage the fewer people vote. If that is not your intent, then please add the quorum provision.

1. Should be the President.. I believe I mentioned that the President gets all of the duties not mentioned. Think I should actually mention it as a Presidential duty though?

2. I meant it as both, both the Sci and Lux slider.

3. Thanks, but I'm not completely done with that. Going to go into more detail inside of the COL. I'm hoping it does it's intended purpose of giving leaders the feeling that there actually "doing something" and also lessen the length of turnchats.

4. My plan is to make the constitution hard to change, because it should contain the things we shouldn't change often. I want to make the COL the "changeable" document. If you notice, I'm putting alot of things inside of the COL that I put inside of the Constitution before. Although this may be a bit to wishful, so I'll consider lessening the blow.

CoL:

CoL A should not be there at all. The judicial procedures idea from DG6 worked to perfection, no reason to monkey with it.

On the types of polls, only two kinds are needed, official or unofficial. If a leader or deputy fails to post an official poll when it is reasonable that one is required, then a citizen should be allowed to post it. Furthermore I disagree that citizen polls must by their nature be unofficial. Instead I would like to say that a poll which follow the correct procedure (discussion, proper format, public, non-biased, open 2 days) must be considered official unless it is competing with an official poll placed by the leader/deputy. Even that is suspect, because if a citizen is polling the same thing a leader is posting, the leader's poll is immediately suspect and should be reviewed for legitimacy.

I agree with the sunset provision though we might not want a definite length. in particular we can't very well be at war and have the poll which put us at war get sunset, and just willy-nilly make peace. The reputation, trade, gpt, etc. ramifications of such an action need to be taken into account. I would say something like the in-game situation the poll relates to must have expired before the poll can expire.

On the information section, I disagree with saying anything against using utilities. That's so completely out of left field that I can't even think of what it could be aimed at.

On city naming, I disagree with mayors getting to name cities. That means exactly 5 people will name a city with absolutely no input from anyone else. We would be better off just taking the default names from the game. Put the names up for a vote by all citizens, or don't have naming at all.

CoL A should not be there at all. The judicial procedures idea from DG6 worked to perfection, no reason to monkey with it.

Actually, this is basically just the same thing.. just easier to fine. It also requires that the Judiciary actually look to the citizens and not just decide themselves how to interpret our laws.

It's not very democratic, if the ones who interpret our laws, also decides on how they do so. Anyway, it's not like it would be that hard to change 1/3 is barely anything.

On the types of polls, only two kinds are needed, official or unofficial. If a leader or deputy fails to post an official poll when it is reasonable that one is required, then a citizen should be allowed to post it. Furthermore I disagree that citizen polls must by their nature be unofficial. Instead I would like to say that a poll which follow the correct procedure (discussion, proper format, public, non-biased, open 2 days) must be considered official unless it is competing with an official poll placed by the leader/deputy. Even that is suspect, because if a citizen is polling the same thing a leader is posting, the leader's poll is immediately suspect and should be reviewed for legitimacy.

I added the following to the COL, you must have missed it:

In the case of the absence of an Official Poll, an Unofficial poll may be used to may gameplay decisions. However, Informational polls can not be used to make gameplay decisions.

I added the other two "types of polls," because they were needed to atleast be explained. Anyway, it would be like the Culture fiasco we had at the end of last game. Would you have been happy if Culture Victory won, yet they used that to make a gameplay decision to justify disbanding a city? With these polling standards, a "What type of victory should we go for?" type poll will fall under the Informational area... and as such can not be used to make gameplay decisions.

I also actually planned on giving the Chief Justice the power to "make" Unofficial polls Official. Just incase.

I agree with the sunset provision though we might not want a definite length. in particular we can't very well be at war and have the poll which put us at war get sunset, and just willy-nilly make peace. The reputation, trade, gpt, etc. ramifications of such an action need to be taken into account. I would say something like the in-game situation the poll relates to must have expired before the poll can expire.

Didn't think of that, I'll try to remember to make the needed changes.

On the information section, I disagree with saying anything against using utilities. That's so completely out of left field that I can't even think of what it could be aimed at.

Number Crunching ring a bell? Also, we wouldn't have had that culture crap at the end of last game, if it wasn't for utilities.

On city naming, I disagree with mayors getting to name cities. That means exactly 5 people will name a city with absolutely no input from anyone else. We would be better off just taking the default names from the game. Put the names up for a vote by all citizens, or don't have naming at all.

My reasoning behind this, is that the mayors poistion is utter bullcrap. It's boring, there is almost nothing to do, almost no real power. I was hoping to just add alittle spice to the piece of crap poistion. If it wasn't for making this 5BC friendly, it wouldn't be in here. I will think about changing it though.

make sure you state exactly who controls city placement because people will complain about this

make sure you state exactly who controls city placement because people will complain about this

Looks like Culture owns this (movement of settlers implies city placement).

make sure you state exactly who controls city placement because people will complain about this

I have it fixed ;).

Okay I updated the constitution with the following:


Added Article L. dealing with Vacant Poistions
Did some minor tweaks to the Election Process
Added that the DP is responsible for the scheduling of there turnchat
Did a tweak to the amending the Constitution (Article G.)


I also updated the COL:


Added Amendment F. dealing with the National Budget
Added Amendment G. dealing with the Play of the Save
Made an Edit to Amendment D.
Made some changes to Amendment C. giving the Chief Justice the ability to lengthen the time (by one week) before an Official Poll is deemed Unofficial.


What these changes attempt to do:

Make Deputy poistions more powerful
Make leader poistions more powerful
Increase the information avaible to citizens on the forums
Shorten the length of Turnchats
Makes it possible for a CC to be handled privately, instead of publicly
Makes the Judiciary more answerable to the people, however gives the Chief Justice more power.


I'm hoping to do the Glossery of Terms soon.

I must be really good at this... usually everything I propose is so littered with problems that the thread hits page 2 within a few hours.

I'm working on the Glossery of Terms right now.

I agree giving deputies more power than just "a person stashed away in a cubical in the corner".

Okay.. Glossery of Terms is up! It's *very* far from being finished however. That's all of the terms I could think of right now.

Also, yes I know it's not inside of an certain type of order.

I agree giving deputies more power than just "a person stashed away in a cubical in the corner".

That's part of my plan with this constitution. Make the elected (and even some of the non-elected) offices interesting. Hopefully that will increase people's commitment to the game (there hold an office, so they will have a commitment) and as such stay longer.

Anyway, what's the point of having a deputy, if they are hardly ever needed?

How do you plan on impleamenting a 'more interesting deputy?' It's a great idea to get people more involved, but this seems like it's treading further into the domain of elected leaders - trying to legislate a certain style of play. If a leader wants his deputy to work at some interesting jobs, that's his prerogative. If, though, a leader would rather his deputy take a back seat, that's also his decision (and, perhaps, his loss).

I must be really good at this... usually everything I propose is so littered with problems that the thread hits page 2 within a few hours.

It is somewhat better than previous efforts, however I think we're seeing more a general disinterest with the whole process than sweeping agreement that the proposals are good. I'm seeing the same lack of comments in all 3 threads. Actually I mentioned this effect in the beginning poll for Nobody's draft, and got called to task about that proposal having only been around for 2 days -- but your first thread sat there for weeks without comment, a point that nobody other than Nobody and I had acknowledged. (there I go again :lol: )

How do you plan on impleamenting a 'more interesting deputy?' It's a great idea to get people more involved, but this seems like it's treading further into the domain of elected leaders - trying to legislate a certain style of play. If a leader wants his deputy to work at some interesting jobs, that's his prerogative. If, though, a leader would rather his deputy take a back seat, that's also his decision (and, perhaps, his loss).

Strider, before you come unglued, this is NOT a dig -- just an amusing turn of events. ;)

The irony is that the Tactical branch in DG6 was a stealth way to give the deputies half the power by making them separately elected officials. Now we have an opponent of that system suggesting another system to give deputies power. :p

How do you plan on impleamenting a 'more interesting deputy?' It's a great idea to get people more involved, but this seems like it's treading further into the domain of elected leaders - trying to legislate a certain style of play. If a leader wants his deputy to work at some interesting jobs, that's his prerogative. If, though, a leader would rather his deputy take a back seat, that's also his decision (and, perhaps, his loss).

Take a look at the polling standards in the Code Of Laws. Basically, I've implemented a system of 'official polls.' While part of this is to stop people from undermining a leaders authority, I've also given the deputy of the department the ability to post official polls. I also plan on giving the deputies of differant offices other jobs. IE: I plan on switching the control of the National Budget from the President, to the Deputy of Development. If you also notice unit naming is already under control of the Deputy General (or the Generals Office Deputy).

I may also put the 'information' office in control of a deputy also. I haven't decided if I should though, and if I do who should I put it under? (Possibly the Vice President?)

I must be really good at this... usually everything I propose is so littered with problems that the thread hits page 2 within a few hours.

I takes a while to read it all....
Anyway, here's a list of comments.

Main pro's:

generally solid judicial procedures. I agree they should not be decided by the court after their election. Having them in the CoL is both efficient and democratic.
good ideas on the scope of polls. Though I would like some changes: your setup gives too much power to the CJ (who may extend the "validity" of a poll). It is a good idea for short term decisions, like "what to research next". It is disastrous for any long term decision, like the 5BC variant rule, strategic planning for warfare, etc.
nice idea on letting officials play their part of turn 0.


Main con's/problems:

no solution to some of the main problems (IMO) of last game: overloaded presidency, inactive officials, offices have no power whatsoever, too many short term and detailed discussions, lack of coordination (should be Presidents job), no department of treasury.
too much power for appointed deputies, who should simply follow the guidelines of their boss, the elected official.
enormously long and detailed document. Needs shortening and spellchecking.


General comment: constructions like "...may include but is not limited too..." don't say anything. And now for the details:

Const

Article A: "No rule shall be valid..." conflicts with Article J. Besides, Article J grants a right to moderators that they already have. Perhaps merge these two articles?

Article D: The President controls the budget, but R&D has the slider, that's going to be a problem. Apart from that, the division of responsibilities is nice and gives everyone something to do.
Nitpicks: two Offices, one Department, one Council. A bit too fancy perhaps? The names of the culture department (most important task is settling) and R&D department (also does worker control) are somewhat confusing - the word "development" in R&D usually doesn't mean land development :).

Article E.1: how can a mayor be responsible for the "defense and protection of there (sic) city"? They have no control over troops...

Article I.2: I would prefer to have a summary as well.
Commitment of any nonreversible game actions (whether a turn passes or not) should be forbidden to anyone except the DP, except as provided by Am. G.

Article K: elections don't decide who is fit, but only who is elected.

Article L: what happens if the period does exceed one week?

CoL
General: should these really be called amendments??

Am. A.1: there is another type of JR (for amendment of Const), not mentioned here. The type mentioned here should be described as "a clarification of existing law, using only the law and/or common sense" (needs better wording). Otherwise this opens the door to justices inventing new law out of thin air.

Am. A.2 and following: please add somewhere the principles "innocent until proven guilty" and "equality of arms".

Am. A.2.e: why Mod confirmation?

Am. A.3: accusation should also contain the name(s) of the Accuser, and a clear description of the violation. Please no accusations by PM.

Am. A.5: no closing statements for JA and PD?

Am. A.5.b: this gives the defense less than 24 hrs to react to the evidence, provide counter evidence, etc. Way too short.

Am. A.6: who is the jury?

Am. A.7: "Some of the sentencing option the Chief Justice should consider are..." is too vague. It basically says: CJ can do whatever he wants.
I think it's better to leave expulsion and suspension to the mods. Alternatively, maximum punishment levels for each violation of law have to be stated to prevent gross abuse.

Am. B: no JR?

Am. C: polls represent the WotP and so they are always binding...
You are essentially ruling out decisions on overall strategy (because they are not "inside of the duty of any certain official."). That means we cannot work towards any goal, and I think it's a bad idea. A two week sunset provision is also clearly tailored for short term decisions. Giving the CJ the power to delay the sunset is a recipe for trouble.

Am. D: strange list. I suppose it is to exclude utilities, and I am against it. It also excludes information sources such as the game manual, non-DG threads at CFC or elsewhere, live sources, etc...
PttP council: do we need a law for this?

Am. F: you cannot run a budget without control of the slider. I don't understand this. We play 10 turns at a time, how can the President project the budget 10 turns forward if the slider is in the hands of R&D?

Glossary

please replace "50.01%" by "more than 50%".

Article A: "No rule shall be valid..." conflicts with Article J. Besides, Article J grants a right to moderators that they already have. Perhaps merge these two articles?

Good idea, and they are now merged together.

Article D: The President controls the budget, but R&D has the slider, that's going to be a problem. Apart from that, the division of responsibilities is nice and gives everyone something to do.
Nitpicks: two Offices, one Department, one Council. A bit too fancy perhaps? The names of the culture department (most important task is settling) and R&D department (also does worker control) are somewhat confusing - the word "development" in R&D usually doesn't mean land development :).

That is an example of me being indecisive. I was also thinking of giving the National Budget to the R&D department also, but I figured in the end to give it to the President. Think I should still give R&D control of the National Budget?

Article E.1: how can a mayor be responsible for the "defense and protection of there (sic) city"? They have no control over troops...

Informing the Generals Office of possible threats against there city.

Article I.2: I would prefer to have a summary as well.
Commitment of any nonreversible game actions (whether a turn passes or not) should be forbidden to anyone except the DP, except as provided by Am. G.

Added in a summary. Something I forgot about :(.

Article K: elections don't decide who is fit, but only who is elected.\

Fixed, change it to trusted. Elected doesn't fit to well :crazyeye:.

Article L: what happens if the period does exceed one week?

Fixed also.

General: should these really be called amendments??

I was trying to find a term to seperate the main bodies of the COL from the Con.

Am. A.1: there is another type of JR (for amendment of Const), not mentioned here. The type mentioned here should be described as "a clarification of existing law, using only the law and/or common sense" (needs better wording). Otherwise this opens the door to justices inventing new law out of thin air.

Fixed

Am. A.2 and following: please add somewhere the principles "innocent until proven guilty" and "equality of arms".

Fixed

Am. A.2.e: why Mod confirmation?

Why not? It's the most efficient way I can think of.

Am. A.3: accusation should also contain the name(s) of the Accuser, and a clear description of the violation. Please no accusations by PM.

Fixed

Am. A.5: no closing statements for JA and PD?

Should they have a closing statement? I see no real point behind having one.

Am. A.5.b: this gives the defense less than 24 hrs to react to the evidence, provide counter evidence, etc. Way too short.

There not suppose to react to the evidence, there suppose to supply evidence as to why the accused citizen is innocent, and not guily.

Am. A.6: who is the jury?

Fixed

Am. A.7: "Some of the sentencing option the Chief Justice should consider are..." is too vague. It basically says: CJ can do whatever he wants. I think it's better to leave expulsion and suspension to the mods. Alternatively, maximum punishment levels for each violation of law have to be stated to prevent gross abuse.

Fixed

Am. B: no JR?

So the Judiciary can say an amendment that changes the Judicial Procedures is unconstitutional because they don't like it? Nope.. were going to have to trust the citizens on this one.

Am. C: polls represent the WotP and so they are always binding... You are essentially ruling out decisions on overall strategy (because they are not "inside of the duty of any certain official."). That means we cannot work towards any goal, and I think it's a bad idea. A two week sunset provision is also clearly tailored for short term decisions. Giving the CJ the power to delay the sunset is a recipe for trouble.

Should a poll that is vague, lacks enough information to make an informed decision, and undermines a leaders attempt to plan be considered binding? Also, a poll that is a month old can not be considered the will of the people. The Will of the People change, and it's using those old polls to make gameplay decisions that cause half of our problems.

Am. D: strange list. I suppose it is to exclude utilities, and I am against it. It also excludes information sources such as the game manual, non-DG threads at CFC or elsewhere, live sources, etc...
PttP council: do we need a law for this?

It never says anywhere that it excludes the manual or anything else. Where'd you get that from?

Am. F: you cannot run a budget without control of the slider. I don't understand this. We play 10 turns at a time, how can the President project the budget 10 turns forward if the slider is in the hands of R&D?

You can very well run a budget without the slider, because your not suppose to add the additional gpt we might make into your budget. I don't see what your point is here, it's possible, and it's been done successfully before.

Thanks for the changes. It looks a lot better! (to me at least :) )


That is an example of me being indecisive. I was also thinking of giving the National Budget to the R&D department also, but I figured in the end to give it to the President. Think I should still give R&D control of the National Budget?


I guess it's a matter of taste. I like the budget and slider controls in one hand (R&D in this case). If you feel that this gives R&D too much to do, you could consider transferring worker actions to Culture (that department has not so much to do after the first 5 cities are settled). Of course, this is your document, and it's your choice whether to keep them separate or not :).


You can very well run a budget without the slider, because your not suppose to add the additional gpt we might make into your budget. I don't see what your point is here, it's possible, and it's been done successfully before.


Maybe separating the budget and slider control has worked well in previous games because nobody around here really cares for spending money? I lurked one of the previous games and there the guy in charge of the budget practically begged the officials to spend some :lol:. In the last game, our president in term 5 spend most of the budget in her own mysterious ways, because hardly anybody else wanted it.
Keeping the budget and slider controls in the hands of one person, who is not the DP, forces a bit more discussion on money. It also enables that person to roughly guess how much will be available for the next TC, and so how much there is to spend.

Art I.2: if I understand your definition of "playing the save" (I assume it is the same as "playing a turn" as used here) correctly, this still allows every citizen to open the save and commit game actions such as diplo and trade, or combat, as long as they don't end the turn. Is this intentional?

Art I.2: just thought of something else. The save should be made available to the citizenry at the end of the TC.


Why not? It's the most efficient way I can think of.


Maybe the citizens can request a confirmation poll? As soon as mods step in, you get the problem that questioning mod decisions is not allowed. Also, it forces the mods in an unnatural role.

Am. A.3.a: the reason I wanted the Accused mentioned is to avoid anonymous accusations. It seems that this is still possible if the accusation is PM-ed. Maybe you could add the name of the Accused to Am. A.4.b?

Am. A.5.a: I assume this has to be the same charge as in A.3.a, A.4.b and A.4.d?


Should they have a closing statement? I see no real point behind having one.


Final statements for prosecution and defense are a legal tradition and allow both parties to wrap up their case and draw conclusions. It also provides a clear marker when the discussion is closed.


There not suppose to react to the evidence, there suppose to supply evidence as to why the accused citizen is innocent, and not guily.


This is the first time that the Defense gets to see the evidence (or possibly even the charge, if it is allowed to change). Here the "equality of arms" principle would apply: the JA gets an unspecified amount of time to investigate the charge, so the defense should get that too.
The defense does not have to supply evidence. The accused is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. All the defense has to do is cast sufficient doubt on the evidence of the prosecution. This means the defense needs to know the evidence before it can do that.

Am. A.7.b: maybe add that the poll may not omit weaker sentences than those present in the poll? I.e., if the poll contains Public Apology, then it should also contain Warning and No Punishment.


So the Judiciary can say an amendment that changes the Judicial Procedures is unconstitutional because they don't like it? Nope.. were going to have to trust the citizens on this one.


Good point. I didn't think of that :blush:


Should a poll that is vague, lacks enough information to make an informed decision, and undermines a leaders attempt to plan be considered binding? Also, a poll that is a month old can not be considered the will of the people. The Will of the People change, and it's using those old polls to make gameplay decisions that cause half of our problems.


If an unoffical poll (I mean: initiated by a citizen or unauthorized official) meets the CoL requirements then I think it should be binding. Btw, the Will of the People clause in the constitution probably needs some qualification to prevent "bad polls" from being binding as well.
I agree that it should be possible to repoll earlier decisions. I think however that a fixed timescale of two weeks is somewhat strange. This is more than long enough for most of the "click-the-mouse" decisions, but not long enough for long-term decisions. DS had an interesting suggestion, but it may be hard to code it into law.
In any case, I would not let the CJ decide on delaying the sunset. In case of heated disputes it puts him in the awkward position of having to decide whether to follow an old majority or a new one. This is worsened by the fact that everyone can see how the CJ voted on the disputed poll.
It would be interesting to know what mechanisms RL democracies have to deal with this. Maybe we can mimick those.


It never says anywhere that it excludes the manual or anything else. Where'd you get that from?


Maybe I misunderstood. When it says "Information relating to the save game may be legally acquired by the following ways" I assumed that all other ways would be illegal. The only ones mentioned are the save, and certain WWW sources. The printed game manual (for example) is not mentioned.

Art I.2: if I understand your definition of "playing the save" (I assume it is the same as "playing a turn" as used here) correctly, this still allows every citizen to open the save and commit game actions such as diplo and trade, or combat, as long as they don't end the turn. Is this intentional?

No it was not, and it's fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Art I.2: just thought of something else. The save should be made available to the citizenry at the end of the TC.

Fixed

Maybe the citizens can request a confirmation poll? As soon as mods step in, you get the problem that questioning mod decisions is not allowed. Also, it forces the mods in an unnatural role.

Ahh, it's starting to grow on me. Changed to a confirmation poll.

Am. A.3.a: the reason I wanted the Accused mentioned is to avoid anonymous accusations. It seems that this is still possible if the accusation is PM-ed. Maybe you could add the name of the Accused to Am.A.4.b?

Fixed

Am. A.5.a: I assume this has to be the same charge as in A.3.a, A.4.b and A.4.d?

Aye, yes it is.

Final statements for prosecution and defense are a legal tradition and allow both parties to wrap up their case and draw conclusions. It also provides a clear marker when the discussion is closed.

eh, oh well. Added.

This is the first time that the Defense gets to see the evidence (or possibly even the charge, if it is allowed to change). Here the "equality of arms" principle would apply: the JA gets an unspecified amount of time to investigate the charge, so the defense should get that too.
The defense does not have to supply evidence. The accused is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. All the defense has to do is cast sufficient doubt on the evidence of the prosecution. This means the defense needs to know the evidence before it can do that.

The Public Defender gets to see the evidence throughout the entire investigation progress. The JA's job is not to prove a citizen guilty, and you seem to think that is all they will be doing.

Am. A.7.b: maybe add that the poll may not omit weaker sentences than those present in the poll? I.e., if the poll contains Public Apology, then it should also contain Warning and No Punishment.

Good idea, added almost word for word (Couldn't think of wording it anyway else).


In any case, I would not let the CJ decide on delaying the sunset. In case of heated disputes it puts him in the awkward position of having to decide whether to follow an old majority or a new one. This is worsened by the fact that everyone can see how the CJ voted on the disputed poll. It would be interesting to know what mechanisms RL democracies have to deal with this. Maybe we can mimick those.

Made some edits to the polling standards... go check it out ;).

Section 2. Council of Culture
The Counselor of culture is charged with the movement and placement of settlers. They are also charged with the formation of boundaries and the monitoring of our culture levels. The building of wonders and spaceship parts are also given to Council of Culture.

Section 4. Office of Research and Development
The Office of Research and Development is given control over all worker related activities. They are also charged with our nations research and the domestic slider. The building of spaceship parts are also given to Research and Development.

is this a two department job or an error?

Section 2. Council of Culture
The Counselor of culture is charged with the movement and placement of settlers. They are also charged with the formation of boundaries and the monitoring of our culture levels. The building of wonders and spaceship parts are also given to Council of Culture.

Section 4. Office of Research and Development
The Office of Research and Development is given control over all worker related activities. They are also charged with our nations research and the domestic slider. The building of spaceship parts are also given to Research and Development.

is this a two department job or an error?

Whoops.. nope. That was a copy and paste error :). I orginally was going to give both wonders and spaceship parts to R&D, then I was going to give them to culture. I finally decided on giving spaceship to R&D and wonders to culture, but it looks like I didn't change it.

Thanks alot for pointing that out :goodjob: