Here's a teaser:

http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Rik Meleet/2005726191341_--TNT.JPG

Is this our official start position ?

yes ;)

I would assume so, since Rik has finished the map and i guess he's posting the start locations in all the team's forums.

ok good, we are Persians, and we got an excellent start site. Designed or random map ?

ok good, we are Persians, and we got an excellent start site. Designed or random map ?

Rik Meleet designed the map so it was fair to everyone.

I'm no good at these Wheat/Flood Plain starts. :\ So I'm unsure at what we should do... But damn that is some good food bonuses. I'm going to mimic this start in the editor and play it out, so I can get a feel for it.

Here is what I did:
This assumes that we reaserch Pottery at 100%.

Turn 0: Settle on Spot, Move worker to cow, Start Settler, City working Cow
Turn 1: Mine the Cow
Turn 5: Finish Mining, Start Roading
Turn 7: Finish Roading, Move to Wheat, City grows to size 2, New citizen works wheat, grows in 4 finished settler in 5, Rasie Lux to 10%
Turn 8: Worker Irragates
Turn 10: Culture expands
Turn 11: Settler Finishes, Start Granary(20), Irragation Finishes, Start road
Turn 13: Road Finishes, moves into city
Turn 14: Move to Ivory
Turn 15: Road Ivory
Turn 17: Irragate Ivory
Turn 18: City grows, New citizen to Wheat, Grows in 4, Granary in 13
Turn 20: Finish Irragation

I'll continue playing later.

So far it seems as if we should Mine the Cow and then road the Ivory because Irragating the Wheat did not help get the first settler out any faster. We would then have the Ivory connected at Turn 8, which means we only have to raise Lux for 1 turn. We would then go Irragate the Wheat.

I don't know what to do long termish, but i suggest moving 1 square SW, so we can get some more of the grass and FP down south.

I think we should settle where we are. We could chop that forest to the SW for ten shields down the road. Refresh my memory: Persians are scientific and industrious?

Refresh my memory: Persians are scientific and industrious?

Yep, the manual confirms it.

I say we move our worker one tile southwest (move it BEFORE we move the settler). See what's inside of that black tile, if it looks like more grassland, then we should then move out settler one tile southwest and settle there (that way the gold might actually be useful to us).

If there's really nothing there, then we plant our ass on the hill.

You don't lose the commerce bonus by settling on the gold. I don't see any reason to move; you can't irrigate the hill so that basically gives us a high-gold tile with 2 food from the beginning of the game.

One disagreement with the irrigation of the wheat - there's no way it will help us at all for now, I say we should go after roading the Ivory before trying to do anything with the wheat, and even after that, we'd be better off going after a BG.

Persia starts with BW and Masonry, right? We should go for Iron Working first thing out so we can secure a source as early as possible. With the extra gold, it should be doable in under 50 turns.

Since settling on the spot seems all but decided, all we really need to work out for the first turn is what to research, and at what rate. We could go at min research and save up for mass warrior->immortal upgrades. Or we could go all out and attempt to grab some useful techs for trading.

You don't lose the commerce bonus by settling on the gold. I don't see any reason to move; you can't irrigate the hill so that basically gives us a high-gold tile with 2 food from the beginning of the game.

uh.. actually. Yes you do lose the commerce bonus. Not only that, but you lose about 2 shields later on inside of the game (next to a bonus of only one extra food).

I agree to move 1 SW, we can lose the forest and gain all the bonus around the area. This is a very good start but keep in mind that others might have the same bonus. So lets move to take advantage of the extra gold.

You do not lose the commerce bonus from settling on a hill. The only loss would be 1 gold, because we are in depositism. The only things that are lost if you settle on a resorce are food, and possibly sheilds (I have to check).

Also if we move we would probably be a turn short from everybody else, becasue if their start is as good as ours, they will most likely settle on spot. Plus I see no reason what-so-ever to move.

Also the tile 2 SW from our capital is going to be a grassland, bonus or not is immposible to tell. If we settle on spot we will have a total of 7 grassland (3 bonus), 4 plains, 2 forests on plains, 5 costal tiles, and 1 flood plain.

Apparently it's only food bonus from resources that is wasted. I made Ivory give +25food +25sheilds +25gold. Here is the city window:

Here is what the terrain around our capital will most likely be:

Lightgreen = grassland
Darkgreen = Forest
Blue = Coast
Lightbrown = Floodplain
Mediumbrown = Plains
DarkBrown = Mountain/Hill

Wait a second, we could be right next to Iron!

Can you show one where a city built on bonus food resource and see if it gets wasted?

He did, the ivory was +25 food, and the city's only getting 2 in that picture.

Oh, thanks for the correction. Guess settling on the hill sounds good, only we don't get to mine it...

In a game vs the AI, I'd do this:

Settle in spot, work FPW, Move Worker to cow.
Irrigate cow. Then road and move to irrigate FPW.
Provided it's a "normal" cow (not on BG), first settler pops turn 14 or 15, depending on what tiles get worked on growth.
Move settler S SW SW and work FP, throw in 2 warriors then build two granaries for a 4-turn settler factory and a 6-turn factory (in despo in the capital, working the cow).

If we've got human civs nearby, they may opt for a military approach, which leaves this opening very vulnerable.

To get an edge, we should settle on the spot to leverage our Science advantage.
As this is pangea, it is critical that we develop a firm industrial base and churn out as many immortals as possible, with a relatively dense city build.

We should irrigate and road the cattle as our first move, I know this from the other intersite demogames we actually lost as CFC. Then, we need to irrigate the foodplains with grain. In this process, we should build a worker in place of a warrior, which will let us quickride our industrial base. We should time the conclusion of our first warrior, with the chopping of the trees SW, this will give us a quick extra warrior.

Our buildqueue should be:
Worker
Warrior
Warrior (Chopped), concluded the turn directly after the first warrior is complete.

If we mine the cow we get a settler out on turn 11. We sould mine the cow instead of irragate the cow because if we Irragate the wheat we will be getting 5 food off that one square. That right there is enough for the 4-turn settler factory, at least I'm pretty sure it will be enough. I will have to test it. If we do Irragate both the cow and wheat we might be able to produce a Worker/Settler factory in the same city, if this is the case that would be the better idea.

Also we should not waste a forest on a warrior but should instead use it for a granary.

i agree with vbraun, we should mine the cow. basically, we have 2 bonus resources: cow on BG and wheat on FP. since the wheat can only be irrigated and not mined, it makes sense to mine the cow, to get that extra shield.

As this is pangea,...
The map is a continents map.

Even better, a worker out more would make sense, since we are industrious and work faster.

Actually it would make sense to make less workers becasue our workers work twice as fast. ;)

Cows are always on "normal" grassland, I've never encountered one on a BG before. Same goes with all resources that are on Grassland. Cows get +1 shield, however.

Actually it would make sense to make less workers becasue our workers work twice as fast. ;)

Not at the start, having two workers early will help our economy gain strength much faster than others. This is critical at the first few turns.

Cows are always on "normal" grassland, I've never encountered one on a BG before. That's because you've never seen one of my maps before ;)
Same goes with all resources that are on Grassland. Cows get +1 shield, however.Putting resources on grassland is just as easy as putting them on Bonus grassland. The Civ 3 random maps don't do it for some reason, but it is possible. Human mapmakers do it sometimes.
See the parallel with fish on marshes? That is something the Civ 3 random maps never do, but fish can be placed on marsh. It must be because of internal codes. A human mapmaker doesn't have those internal code-barriers. Don't rely on your experience with random maps to know what is possible in a human made map. ;)

Don't rely on your experience with random maps to know what is possible in a human made map. ;)

That goes without about everything in this game. Remember, were playing humans... not an AI. Humans are much smarter, and much more capable. Most strategies that work inside of a normal Epic game would just fail horribly here.

We've got to be 'out of the box' if we want to win this. Oh sure, a stack of immortals is awesome, but you can send in 8 stacks of warriors (in the same amount of time) and just overwhelm them. Pillage everything in sight, capture workers.. while our main forces (and most upgraded.. like immortals) go after the cities themselves.

Remember, humans can be angered, humbled, overwhelmed, and surprised. Let's use that to our advantage.

To put it simply, none of your strategies, tatics, or knowledge from a regular game means **** here.

We should really get a spearman over to enemy territroy to pillage them, scare their workers and force them to make archers and waste lots of warriors. Infact this was a common tactic back in my Multiplayer Days.

It would be even better if our spearman had 2 movement. Impi's were known as Settler killers also.

We also need to set up away to see at least 3 squares out side our borders, as strange as this sounds I reccomend Outpost's on mountains as we will be able to see not just 2 squares but 3 squares around it! Also this would be an oddball tactic that no one on anyother teams would think about, meaning they probably won't look for the outposts and will not see them.

We also need to set up away to see at least 3 squares out side our borders, as strange as this sounds I reccomend Outpost's on mountains as we will be able to see not just 2 squares but 3 squares around it! Also this would be an oddball tactic that no one on anyother teams would think about, meaning they probably won't look for the outposts and will not see them.

Hm... that sounds good. I am surprised, but like the idea. Personaly I never was used outposts - but as you mention probably other teams will not use that tactic :) .

Just so you know: Wines do not give a food bonus. They give +2 gold instead.

Remember, that extra early worker brings new settlers quicker to the new city site, as well as heavily increasing production in the cityscape. I have this input from the very best of sources. You may of course ignore me, but then I will hound you guys when we fall behind the other guys. That extra early worker enables us to chop a forest quick for an extra warrior, without losing time and food, as well as faster scaling up tile production as well as imperial logistics. Remember, Immortals are heavily road dependent units.

The choice of Persians, require us to provide Immortals with the needed infrastructure to be transited effectively to the battlespace, as well as quicker reconstruction of terrain for increased production. I would claim my proposal is the only proposal with a sort of holistic strategy, long term thinking and leveraging joint synergies.

In starts with huge food production, early workers are imhso even more important, otherwise you'll be working unimproved tiles for a long time.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my post: I agree with Strider that the usual tactics that would trash the AI from a start like this, may not work against humans. We still need a settler factory, though.

After thinking about this start I'd suggest this: settle in place, move worker to FPW and irrigate then road, then move to cow and mine/road.
First build is settler which goes EE and builds warrior, warrior, barracks.

How does that sound?

I disagree, I agree with the initial tile improvements, but my pick would be worker, warrior, warrior (forest chop), settler (forest chop 2), which will enable the fastest expansion possible. We got enough shields from other places, so we can really chop the forests to gain an edge.

I recommend we save a forest for the granary when we get pottery.

Any comments on the use of outposts?

I learnt about the early worker strategy from the very programmer at Firaxis, Trip.
Mathemathically, that gives the biggest early gain.

Any comments on the use of outposts?

i like the idea, but remember that the worker dissapears after you build the outpost, so we want it to do other jobs first, before building the outpost.

Production and population growth early is key, let us not get fancy, and get an early worker to spearhead our industrial growth.

Production and population growth early is key, let us not get fancy, and get an early worker to spearhead our industrial growth.

agreed, 2 workers total in the early years.

This buildqueue should be in place:

Worker
Warrior (go out explore)
Warrior (provide capital security)
Granary (chopped 2 forests)
Settler (chopped 1 forest)

Tile Improvement

Cattle: Irrigation and Roads
Grain: Irrigation and Roads
Forests: Chopchopchop
Roads towards new city site to speed settling

This buildqueue should be in place:
Worker
Warrior (go out explore)
Warrior (provide capital security)
Granary (chopped 2 forests)
Settler (chopped 1 forest)


i would change that to this:
Warrior
Worker
Warrior
Granary
Settler

WE really gain more from an early worker than an early warrior. I have gametested this extensively. The earliest worker gives us a very swift expansion.

I, too build worker first in most instances.
I just think that in this case, there is so much food around that settler first will be very beneficial. Besides anything else, our capitol will not have to build a single military unit.

yes a worker should be our first unit. then the warriors.

Should we do a vote for first build? Settler, Warrior or Worker are the suggs so far.

I'm going to go against the worker idea. It looks like we got the best start in the game, and if you guys remember the game is even starts. The only other way for Rik to even up the starts is if he loaded us up with barbarians (or if were on an island).

I'm betting on the barbarians, and as such I think we need to get some defense up.

There is something we haven't seen yet, and I'd much rather see it.. and find out where and what the hell our early challange is.. then sit on our ass building roads.

I'm going to go against the worker idea. It looks like we got the best start in the game, and if you guys remember the game is even starts. The only other way for Rik to even up the starts is if he loaded us up with barbarians (or if were on an island).(..).I never claimed the starts to be identical or even even. I said that the map was balanced.

I never claimed the starts to be identical or even even. I said that the map was balanced.

Aye, but that still means there is something that we haven't seen yet. Something we would be much better off seeing and being able to plan for ;).

A Balanced Map is a map where no team has a clear advantage or disadvantage over other teams with regard to the lay of the land. This holds true on both Macro-level as well as Micro-level.

From what I saw of team doughnuts starting location, they are really bad off. Yet we have a pretty good starting area. There has to be something that balances the map out.

There is another possibility:

3 - The Doughnut-team posted a fake screenshot as a joke ....

I advise you to check the F11 screen before you play. If a Doughnut city exists; the posted Doughnut settler move cannot have happened. And do check the properties of the screenshot in your "Teaser" thread (screenie located at CDZ) and compare that to the properties of the screenshots in the "*OFFICIAL* Team Doughnut turnlog " thread.

:lol: :rotfl:

There is another possibility:

3 - The Doughnut-team posted a fake screenshot as a joke ....

I advise you to check the F11 screen before you play. If a Doughnut city exists; the posted Doughnut settler move cannot have happened. And do check the properties of the screenshot in your "Teaser" thread (screenie located at CDZ) and compare that to the properties of the screenshots in the "*OFFICIAL* Team Doughnut turnlog " thread.

:lol: :rotfl:

Haven't opened the save.. so :rolleyes:. Also, you weren't suppose to say anything ;). I was trying to make us get a warrior out earlier for exploration purposes. :p

I think that is the main difference in outlook here. I want the early worker and strider the early warrior. Yet, the winning mentality in several ISDG's would involve the early worker in order to create the speed, growth and dynamism needed to get an edge on the other teams. Building a warrior first does not solve that, and since we are not an agro civ, we got to leverage our industrial advantage, and not act in a conventional/traditional manner.

I think that is the main difference in outlook here. I want the early worker and strider the early warrior. Yet, the winning mentality in several ISDG's would involve the early worker in order to create the speed, growth and dynamism needed to get an edge on the other teams. Building a warrior first does not solve that, and since we are not an agro civ, we got to leverage our industrial advantage, and not act in a conventional/traditional manner.

Actually, we can most likely build both a warrior and a worker (if we build a warrior first), before we can build a single worker (building the worker first).

Of course, that'll depend on what tile we work, and I don't feel like doing the math right now.

Again, food is more critical than shields, even for an industrial CIV.

Again, food is more critical than shields, even for an industrial CIV.

Whoa.. the first thing that popped into my mind after reading this was "It's better to be Chinese than American." Put those two statements side by side and I hope you'd get the humor.

Okay, I've decided to do the math:



Our city will expand to size two in 7 turns. Both a worker and a warrior cost 10 shields, our initial production will be 2 shields per turn. So we can build both of them in 5 turns.

If we build a Warrior:

Turn 2: We start mining the cow (it'll take 4 turns). Our warrior will be 4 turns from completetion. Our city is 6 turns from growing.

Turn 6: Our Warrior is completed, and our worker is finished with the mine. We set our production to Worker, which will take 4 turns to complete. Our city is 2 turns away from growing.

Turn 8: Our City grows to size two. If we have the extra citizen work a tile that has +1 to production the worker will be finished next turn.

Turn 9: Our worker is completed.

If we build a Worker:

Turn 2: Start mining the cow (it'll take 4 turns). Our city is 6 turns from growing.

Turn 4: Our worker is one turn from completion, but can't be completed because there is no citizen. Our city is 3 turns away from growing.

Turn 5: Our worker is 1 turn away from completion. Our city is 2 turns away from completion.

Turn 6: Our worker is done mining the cow.

Turn 7: Our worker is finally built, start production on Warrior (it'll take 5 turns). Our city is 5 turns from growing.

Turn 13: Our warrior is completed, our city grows.

------------

So I was pretty much right, if we build a warrior first, it will take us 11 turns to complete both a Warrior and a worker. If we build the worker first, then it will take 13 turns for both to be completed. Please note that I was mining/irrigating with our worker (or both workers, but the second one is out to late to aid in the production of the warrior).

So I say we go:

Warrior
Worker
Spearman
Settler

Or (worker first for the sake of the arguement, but could be done with settler as well):
Turn 0: Settle in place, move worker to cow, Pers works FPW.
Turn 1: Start mining.
End of turn 4: City expands pop and works readily mined cow.
End of turn 5: Worker is produced.

Noone said you have to work the cow from the start.

Pers works FPW.
:blush: The person is working the cow for the first turn.

Then we should do warrior first or else waste turns waiting for growth, as shown by Strider.

And BTW, since I didn't know what our Capitol was going to be named I went with the common abbr. for Persia's capitol, Persepolis ;)

Well, the case

Then we should do warrior first or else waste turns waiting for growth, as shown by Strider.


Absolutely