This thead can be a discussion thread for mm'ing. I don't have time to run a spreadsheet on the start till Thursday so anyone who can give it a go in the meantime would be fantastic.

Here is a thread with Offa and Sir Pleb's spreadsheets. Personally, in typical Sir Pleb fashion, Sir Pleb's seems more user friendly.

Planning the start (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=111195)

This is so ...... not for me. :crazyeye:

No probs Pentium. I know this topic is not K.I.S.S. style but the less waste at the start the better.
I will do it Thursday night but if someone else can it today or tomorrow it will help us to get off to a good start.

Oh, I just saw we have Research lab as well. I'll be more active there. :)

I'd like to get my brother Bede's take on the MM end. Bede is the MM Champ.

Won't be able to contribute details 'till the save is actually in hand. In general I would road first, then mine or irrigate, sticking to riverside fields.

Since we have Pottery in hand I would concentrate on shields to get the granary up then switch to getting +5 food.

The feedlot gives us a jump on both.

I"m a decent MMer, I do things as tedious as check cities to see if I could turn a citizen into a specialist and not alter the growth rate and get more commerce, let a city slightly closer to the capital work a river tile of the same food and shields instead of a farther city working it so it won't be corrupted, and yet forget things as simple as raising the lux tax to save my capital from rioting in the early game.

forget things as simple as raising the lux tax to save my capital from rioting in the early game. Go load MapStat for regular games. Here I've understood it's prohibited :rolleyes:

I've tried MapStat, and can't get it to work. Is CrpSuite just as good or better?

But my forgetting to raise lux won't matter, as I can't play. Do I need multiplayer accessability to view saves?

...CrpSuite IS MapStat, I thought. :confused:

Get CivAssist II, then. I prefer MapStat because it's easier to use, but CA II gives more info.

I'm not sure about your second question...

MapStat is part of the Suite (only part I know how to use)

I got CrpSuite and got CivAssistII a long time ago. MapStat is an awesome toy! :thx: It pops up when a city is going to riot. The Viewer is cool, but can I post the little video here?

The save is in so I will grab it plant in place and move the worker to the cow. Research max on BW.

Here's the save for anyone who wants to take a peak.

sounds like a plan.

Here are some pics for your viewing pleasure. We are northern Simpletons. I wasn't sure how to upload the picture so I made it an attachment.

We don't want to upload pics into the server so other teams could see right?

I have a concern about making the gran first. If we make the gran and someone walks up we are screwed. We can get a warrior out without any waste in 4 by switching to the wheat FP on the last turn.
Bede suggested roading vs. irrigating.
Is that for the commerce?

I don't think any team will do dirty tricks like that, because it could result in a dogpile. I think 2 warriors would be the answer. If Greece tries to attack us, we can tattle on them and they'll be seeing a dogpile.

I uploaded through the "manage attachments" rather than the "Upload10". I think "manage attachments" can't be seen. Right?

I agree with Own 2 warriors make the most sense to me. One for exploration and the other for homeland security.

That would work for a warrior. On the 5th turn, select the bg which will grow the city to size 2 and gain the cow.

We need someone who knows how to use those spreadsheets (I don't have excel). warriors aren't a bad build because we can upgrade them, so I don't think a few could hurt.

I uploaded through the "manage attachments" rather than the "Upload10". I think "manage attachments" can't be seen. Right?

yeah. we should always use that or an off-site server.

I will try messing around with the spreadsheet to figure it out.

After seeing so much talk of MapStat and Civ Assist II, I'll post this here:

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Automatic Expulsion

The Rules (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=124096)

I have a concern about making the gran first. If we make the gran and someone walks up we are screwed. We can get a warrior out without any waste in 4 by switching to the wheat FP on the last turn.
Bede suggested roading vs. irrigating.
Is that for the commerce?

That is for the commerce. Makes a huge difference in research times and with the cattle and wheat avanilable doesn't hurt the growth. Even if we plan on an early settler, we still want to concentrate on shields and commerce first. But always finish a field before leaving it. (teaching grandmas how to suck eggs I am. it's all those training games ;) )

Edit:

May not even have to irrigate anything. At pop2 we are kicking out 3 from the city center 3 from the feedlot and 4 from the wheat making it +6. At pop3 working the BG we'd still be +6.

So think the right sequence is road the cattle, road the wheat, then mine and road the BG. Then chop the forest for the granary NE and after that connect and irrigate the wines.

If a spreadsheet monger wants to check the sequence I would welcome their results.

I am running Sir Pleb's spreadsheet and I get a little confused by the IT (adding food and shields I presume) but I will post something tomorrow on a couple different build scenarios. It's good to exorcise( ;) ) my brain every so often.

What exactly is this spreadsheet? Is it like MapStat or Civ Assist II?

No, its a start planner.This (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2697744#post2697744) is it.

It looks like it gives you information that Civ Assist II does. You can figure out the information yourself. I hate to do it, but please don't use any utilities with this game, such as this spreadsheet.

It doesn't give any information like civ assist or mapstat. It's an excel spreadsheet to plan your start. It could be done with pencil and paper, but is an excel file for ease of use. I wouldn't personally put it in anywhere near the same category as civ assist.

I'm just a lurker though so...I won't fight for it to be in.

It looks like it gives you information that Civ Assist II does. You can figure out the information yourself. I hate to do it, but please don't use any utilities with this game, such as this spreadsheet.As Meteor Punch said this is nothing close to Civassist or Mapstat. It is a faster way to come up with the most effiicient use of our 21 tile radius rather than writing it down with pencil and paper as he said. I'm struggling to get the spreadsheets to do what I want as is. The formulas are pretty complex and honestly if I was at work I'd have an intern explaining them to me. :D

Please advise on this.

like the monk said:
So think the right sequence is road the cattle, road the wheat, then mine and road the BG. Then chop the forest for the granary NE and after that connect and irrigate the wines.
and i have to agree to disagree on the CivAssist - Spreadsheet dilema.
im not a fan of spreadsheets AT ALL. and since CivAssist is a :nono: we can handle the one turn MM stuff.

also agree, only using file attachments (not uploads10)

It seems like we can keep the citizen on the BG turn 9 and then focus on the high commerce tiles from turn 10 till we finish the gran in 3150 turn 18.

It will be exactly 60 shields so I see no benefit to move off the commerce from the wheat fp. I can't see any way to get it in 3100 without slowing growth which doesn't seem worthwhile.

After seeing so much talk of MapStat and Civ Assist II, I'll post this here:

2.2 - Save Manipulation

Description: No team or individual is permitted to use the PBEM save games or other files to obtain information or alter any in-game element. This includes monitoring or altering memory while the game is loaded. Using MapStat or CivAssist II or such utilities is also prohibited.

Definition: An individual scanning or monitoring loaded files into memory or altering a file can obtain location information and more, they can even alter in game data.

Purpose: To prevent the use of outside game elements to break the spirit of the game by allowing someone to outright cheat.

Verdict: Using these or any other methods that allows altering the in-game content through any means is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once - Automatic Expulsion

The Rules (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=124096)
Sorry, I'm confused. Does that mean we cannot save the file on our own PC? (not sure about scanning, as I don't own a scanner) I DO understand about not using Mapstat.

The 3 or 4 times I've ever looked at someone else's .sav file from this board, I saved it to a folder on my HD, then copied it to my Conquests/Save file to open with the game. I don't know any other way to do it, so maybe I need an explanation if I'd be doing something wrong. If I have it on my HD, I guess there would be the potential for playing it and cheating...not my intention.

A few minutes ago I downloaded a .sav file that (I think) Whomp posted of the start???? I haven't looked at it yet, and will erase it immediately if that's a problem.

Wow! I knew I was still pretty green (Regent level), but maybe I know even less than I thought I did...which wasn't much.

Edited for grammer. :blush:

You can look at "played" saves but can't move any of the military or workers etc. That would give spoiler info.

I think that's the primary reason for the rule is once the "turnplayer" does something in game it's permanent.

That's okay, gmh. I'm confused too. But here's my interpretation: you are free to look at the saves, but unless you are the turn player you may not make any moves of units or in any way alter the state of the game.

And welcome to this happy band o' bandits.

Thanks for the welcome. :)

I'm thinking that it's very much on the honor system then, right? Anyone on any team could just take their first warrior and march across the continent on their own and gather a great deal of information. Whether or not they discussed it with other team members, they might certainly influence many early key decisions.

I'm not of a suspicious nature, and will trust that no one would do this, but I find it curious that the possibility is there. It would seem that there would be less potential for abuse to just require that everyone use Mapstat or CivAssistII to abuse each other equally. ;)

BTW, I am NOT questioning the judgment of the people organizing the game. They have certainly put a great deal of hard work into getting this off the ground, and they have my admiration.

Actually once a turn is played you can't move anymore till the email comes back around for the next turn.
IE You can't move 2 unroaded squares say on one turn. Does that make sense?
I honestly don't know how you'd get spoiler info from CivassistII and Mapstat but it was rules they used during the Intersite Demogame so they adopted the same ruleset for this game.

For those of you who are visually oriented here's our Capital.

Here's the F1...

thanks whomp. me and the guide-dogs are thankful.

You said somewhere else that the forest chopped after you hit enter, and the granary is really only 8 turns left, right?

That is correct IP. On the IT when you finish chopping and the "10 shields announcement" pops up. I had to look quick because when it exited that was it.

I wonder if that was Team Doughnut's message.... We aren't industrious are we? if we are then I'm going to have to change some of the worker's actions. I don't think that it will hurt any thing else, just what is going on with the worker. I have a to-do list in the turnplay log that says to move the worker to the wines if the chop has completed.

I want to say that the worker won't be able to move this turn. I think I remember this happening on my PBEM so it may be one of those quirks on a PBEM. We may have to wait till the save comes in to confirm.

I had to scroll down to dig up this thread.

I think that we need to get a worker out of ignoramus before the granary. right now we are only generating 2 shields per turn. It's going to take another 27 turns before the granary finishes.

Right now we have 0.6 workers per city. That's not acceptable. So here is what I propose. All new cities get a worker out as the first build. Ignoramus switches back to a worker and starts pumping workers as fast as it can. There aren't any forests near Ignoramus for a chop so granary barring rushing IMO is out of the question.

We need to decide this turn so we don't waste shields by switching later.

Yes, that is what I always do. I love workers, every new city imediately builds one (if it can finish at growth of course) and I usually set up a 2 turn worker factory as well. What's great is that once they finish their jobs, they can join cities, making granaries unnecessary except in the cap.

I'll go with that. We really need to develop the core.

Is there another available +5 food spot? If so, that place should be a worker factory. If Dunderhead has 2 BG's and 2 FP, it can serve as the factory, and should build gran after worker.

The FP wheat can be switched from Dunderhead to Ignoramus and then it will have +5 food. Other than that, there aren't much opportunities for +5 food.

After some workers are out, the FP around Ignoramus can be irrigated and then it will have +5 food and the FP wheat can go back to Dunderhead.

All of this will take workers and time.

Here is my proposal:
Ignoramus just keeps chugging along building workers only for now
Ignoramus works wheat and bgs

Dunderhead works all bgs that it can (same shield count as now)
Dunderhead switches to rax and then starts pumping warriors with an occasional worker.

Are you saying Ignoramus become a 2 turn worker factory? If so, I concur.

It won't for a while. A granary will take quite a long time to complete. But if we can get a few workers out now, then those workers can start improving it a good bit.

I guess we need to decide if we want to wait ~25 turns f

IMO gran is a better idea, but that's just me.

Actually Dunderhead looks better, has some wood to chop to speed the granary up, and has plenty BG's and the FP wheat.

Ok. Dunderhead is a good spot for it.... I just thought that since there is no good military city currently available it would have been better as a military pump.

So should Ignoramus be switched to a military build (warrior)?

If it already has a worker, that's a good idea. Maybe even a rax...

Igno does have a worker... Dunderhead has two. That's all of our workers. I'd like to see Ignoramus get one more worker out before starting the rax.

Chop one of the forests that is just outside Ignoramus' cultural borders to speed up the granary. You still get the shields!

Also Jesterton might do a worker before that warrior, unless barbs are getting a nuisance.

Chop one of the forests that is just outside Ignoramus' cultural borders to speed up the granary. You still get the shields!Really? I didn't realize that. Well the worker that's getting ready to come out of Ignoramus will head right over there.

iirc the chop will benefit the town that is working the tile and if no one does, the town closest to the chop. This may be my only contribution to this thread through the whole game and on top of that I'm not even 100% sure. See you in the more spam-ish threads :lol:

Chop one of the forests that is just outside Ignoramus' cultural borders to speed up the granary. You still get the shields!

as long as it's within the "expanded" city border (ie, the town's 18 tiles), it will count, even if the border has not expanded yet. i believe crakie is refering to the 2 forests SE of Ignoramus? No other towns in range, so it should be a straight ahead chop-chop :)

Yep, it's straightforward in this case :)

Just a small reminder. The fog E of Igno is where the barb camp is. If workers go there to chop they better be escorted.

iirc the chop will benefit the town that is working the tile and if no one does, the town closest to the chop. This may be my only contribution to this thread through the whole game and on top of that I'm not even 100% sure. See you in the more spam-ish threads :lol:

And now for some really boring detail. T-hawk some time ago did an analysis of forest chops on shared fields and found that lumber gets shipped in a certain order and direction depending on the location of the towns, regardless of who is actually working the field.

IIRC it starts at the NW corner of the borders and works clockwise and is shipped to the closest town. But if you are concerned about directing the shipment to a particular town just start a wonder (great or small) elsewhere. And as long as the field is inside the 21 field expanded border you get the lumber even if the border has not expanded.

Or, we could switch one of the cities to a palace or wonder for one turn.

Dunderhead gets two chops, Ignoramus just one.

I don't think that we can't fit two chops for Dunderhead into 8 turns.

Ignoramus is the one that needs shields.

We definately can sneak in 2 chops.

All of the workers are currently busy. Don't see it happening unless we stop mining around Dunderhead and leave a tile without fully improving it... which others have said is a :nono:

Ok, I should have asked where the workers are.

Worker management. What are our plans?
There's some discussion on teaming or not teaming workers.

The way I see it we have two priorities.
One is continuing to develop our city tiles. Ignoramus, SWKTD, Jesterton and Polecat all have tiles that need to be developed. IE Polecat has 3 river BG's that are undeveloped. If Ignoramus had the potential to share the wheat with Dunderhead it could really help this city be a powerhouse. IE If Dunderhead could shrink to 4 pop it would help the lux slider a lot. It would be cheaper to run 4 to 5 pop (instead of 5 to 6) with workers in two if it's possible to temporarily let Ignoramus take the wheat. Just a thought and I may be way off base so tell me if so..

Second is roading to the incense then dyes and spices. We are currently running 20-30% lux so these will become important to crank science to 100%.

As it stands now we only have two workers towards the luxes. One on a grass and another on a mountain. They will start roading next turn. How many more (and should we start stacking these workers?) should be allocated to the luxs? Should Dunderhead workers be focused here and Simpleton's to the city development?

Also some people prefer stacking and others who do not. Though stacking 3's isn't the most efficient at times it does get the luxs hooked up faster which can help the economy.

Thoughts?

Also some people prefer stacking and others who do not My take is that it is a matter of math and that preferences have not much to do with it. Having said that, I'm not the one to do the numbers cause I know a lot of you out there is way above me in that. "Brothers (Tubby, Bede, Crackie and G-man) gonna work it out" and I'll be happy to follow your instructions when I'm up.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads10/finalsig.gif

I think that stacking towards the luxes is ok. In the core I'd rather try to keep them seperate as long as we can. Stacking does waste a worker turn if there is no road there, and according to that article, they should only be stacked if wasted worker turns are less important than speed.

I agree that more should go toward the luxes.

Below is from before our turn 66. the colors correspond to what city is using that tile. The ones with a dotted red square around it are not improved fully.

I think that Dunderhead can be MMed down to 4 pop and keep up the worker production. I think that whoever plays turn 67 (next turn) should only work enough tiles to get 4 shields. All other citezins should be scientists. We'll run negative food during that next turn. Then the next turn one should work the wheat again and the others should work the bgs.

Here's a pic of our current worker situation. Go wild mm'ers :D. Side note, I :lol: at the fact that Whomper has the love of his life running around irrigating and he just tells her where to..

Your not building settlers anymore ???

@ Rik, not for a little while maybe about 6 more turns. We can then have 2 settler pumps if we chose. Although Dunderhead will probably stay on workers for quite a while.

I didn't even know we have a worker carrying my name ... Happens if you move and don't have internet access :)

Edit: why are building a road over mountains? Straight S of Dunderhead looks like less time-consuming.

Edit2: nevermind, I saw Tubby's plan in Cartography Room. Quite sophisticated, I must say.

glad to have you back processor. we've been working your civ3 self quite a bit :)

We had a discussion on how many workers to have on a tile. If you intend to road, put three workers on a tile. They will complete the road in one turn. If you want to irrigate, put either two or four workers on a tile. For mining, three or six. You should always road first so that you can move your workers around for the secondary imrovement.

Bugsy - I thought I read an account that PBEM does not work the same way. You are entirely correct if this was SP. Who doesn't know that. I think we are learning too. If someone can remember the post where it spoke of worker turns needed in PBEM we should start a quick thread with no spam on how to accomplish it efficiently. BTW, this is being typed 7 shots and 5 beers after. Slinger mode has moved a notch. Can I TM Slinger mode? Typing requires 2 backspaces per every 20 characters typed. lol...

Bugsy - I thought I read an account that PBEM does not work the same way. You are entirely correct if this was SP. Who doesn't know that. I think we are learning too. If someone can remember the post where it spoke of worker turns needed in PBEM we should start a quick thread with no spam on how to accomplish it efficiently.
It was in a pdf file that (I think) Daghie linked in the turnplay thread. Here it is for quick reference, and it probably would be a good idea to start a sort of "how to" thread for any and all differences between SP and PBEM games.

The link: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/civ3_acad_worker_moves.pdf

As for TMing "Slinger Mode", I think you're generally known as a one-of-a-kind already and impossible to duplicate by anyone. :p

Totally Muckraked

We shouldn't overimprove cities while they are assigned a certain task, for example building GS, while other cities are in need of worker action. For building GS, 10 (blue) shields is perfect for the time being. From the looks of it, our worker force is dividing it's attention nicely, I have to say :)

Don't we almost have enough workers by now? I'd like the settlerpump back on, I think.

Don't we almost have enough workers by now? I'd like the settlerpump back on, I think. I think most of us agree on turning at least one settler pump back on line. There is no conensus on how this should be done. Gramham suggests one set.pump + one work.pump (fill up cities). I said we might have both squirt settlers until some luxes are hooked up, then we could have S-ton improved and garrisoned and do the P-mids. Lots of other options available, keep posting.

1.5 settler pumps is my vote. It's super easy to reset back to the 4 turn-ers. Although it would be fun to have 2 4-turners running. But alas our military is lacking right now and we need some workers to get those new cities (and our current ones) up to a decent pop.

@Tubby: I take it you want to produce workers just for joining them to military cities, when we have the magic 1.5 worker per city?

I think it is an excellent idea, but only if we go all out on the GS SoD from now on. We will need a lot to overpower MIA, or if we choose another opponent, even more because we cannot leave our homeland undefended.

This all-out war strategy has my preference. No wonders, just 1 settler factory for filling up the gaps, 1 worker factory for getting the core cities sufficiently big, and GS, GS, GS.

What about the FP by the way?

re: Forbidden Palace:

I ran some of the cities through CA2 and it appears that Polecat will give the lowest overall corruption. We can put it in another city is we want to but I thinnk that it might be best. Apparently the west is less corrupt than the east already.

So we're going to build it? ~4 GS's probably aren't much for our war machine, but I wonder if the game will last long enough to make it worthy :crazyeye::D

Yeah I know it goes against some people's views on the pyramids but I don't see this game going into IA. I also don't see us winning by domination but by conquest. My vote is to crank GS' big time. While taking on TNT I say we let MIA develop some roads along the way to their lux city which we can run on afterwards.

Have we started producing galleys yet? Because we need those more than GS to atttack TNT. If we kill them we can create scientists in their land for tech lead and the game.

MM hasn't showed up on our doorstep yet. so no galleys