We start with CB and Pottery. Let's discuss our next research.

I think with the start we have we have the potential to run alpha which would help us with early exploration and a potential run at philo. However, my concern is if we build say warrior/warrior/gran/settler there isn't a lot of room for curraghs.

My top pick would be WC. I think it's a necessary tech to protect ourselves early.

WC is a very valuable tech, it gives us the power to attack. But, if we rush towards IW, we might not need it at all. I believe our continent will be large enough to keep expanding at least until we get IW.

However, I don't think we shoulg go for Alpha. 2 civs start with it, and Philo slingshot will proably go to one of them.

My usual policy is to start a 2nd-tier tech. We only have one available, Mysticism. In this case, no one has WC, so we could go for this one too. So WC -> Myst and beee-line to Monarhcy.

We have another option: If we start by Greece or Persia, we should research Myst and trade it for BW+some gold. If we start by Iroquois, we should research it. Either way, we'll go for IW after that.

I lean towards the last option.

Research will be somewhat fast starting on that gold hill. I'd go Bronze Working->Iron Working. That might be all we need to start taking over.

EDIT: with Pottery to start, there are no other essential AA techs, other than government.

I also say BW and IW, if we are stuck on an island with someone else, we do not want to be week.

BW -> IW sounds mighty nice here as well, but do we have any idea what gov will we go for first?

My preference on governments is republic especially with the religious trait. If a war breaks out we can switch to monarchy when we want.
Since other teams will lose a considerable amount of turns in anarchy switching they won't have that flexibility. I think they expect to fight a lot and will chose Monarchy.

Another advantage of going the WC route is no one knows it.
If the Iroquois go alpha-->writing we could be the first to the tech which makes it very tradeable and ?SGL? (I hate the SGL thing) How are they determined?

We only get 3 in 100 chance of getting a SGL.

It's actually weird that there are no militaristic civ in this game.

It would be good to know who will be on our continent. I still think BW -> IW is the best, then towards Rep.

Short version:

I favour WC to start with

Long version:

I'm probably going into too much detail here (I am not talking to n00bs, I know :D ), but it helps organizing my mind.

Warrior code: no-one starts with it, so has a decent chance of having some trade value. Good for protection against barbs and/or early attacks. Opens possibilities for an early attack on our opponent. Dead end tech unless we favour monarchy because with our UU, HBR is not of much use (assuming we find iron).

Mysticism: almost guaranteed to be of trade value, but only useful for beelining to monarchy.

Alphabet: We can forget about the slingshot or even philo first, but the earlier we send out a curragh to the other continent, the better. The opponents there will likely be more willing to trade! Should be a high research priority.

Bronze working: two opponents start with it, so one will be on the other continent. We might want to hold off until after alphabet while reseaching other techs that give us good trade value.

One problem is that if we start with alphabet, and contact the other continent, we will probably want to have something decent to trade with first (CB will not get us a tech I fear). So there is some time, which we should use for researching higher value techs. Alphabet is a priority, but not the highest priority.

Since we are bound to find one opponent on the other continent with BW eventually, I am reluctant to go for it.

This leaves WC or Myst. Since we are forced into the lower part of the tech tree, I say we go for monarchy. Combined with the short anarchy, we might really profit from an early escape out of despotism. Hence, we will probably research both WC and Myst anyway. WC is to be preferred as the first choice for it will enable us to protect ourselves.

So my basic scheme would be to start with WC, then beeline to monarchy except for researching alphabet somewhere along the way.

We want to know where the iron is as soon as possible. Anyone close to us will want to keep us from getting iron. That resource is the key to early success for us.

BW=>IW

We want to know where the iron is as soon as possible Second that!

We want to know where the iron is as soon as possible. Anyone close to us will want to keep us from getting iron. That resource is the key to early success for us.

BW=>IW

I'm operating under the assumption the mapmaker would not be so cruel as to deny us iron. It's a gamble, I know.

Given the generous start, it's a possibility that the Iron is on the hill right next to the capital...no way of knowing though, of course

So, to make it short, we have 2 basic options:

BW => IW [MP, barbu, Melhisedek, Pentium, Bugs, Dagdha]

WC [Whomp, Crackie]

It's 6 vs. 2 currently.

So, to make it short, we have 2 basic options:

BW => IW [MP, barbu, Melhisedek, Pentium, Bugs, Dagdha]

WC [Whomp, Crackie]

It's 6 vs. 2 currently.

Apart from our pick at the start, how does everyone feel about alphabet being a high priority as well?

Apart from our pick at the start, how does everyone feel about alphabet being a high priority as well?

I agree, After BW, we could consider doing Alpha before IW depending of the situation.

It depends. 2 civs have Alpha as starting tech, so at least on of them will probably (hopefuly) find us quickly. If no-one does, we should go for it.

Given the generous start, it's a possibility that the Iron is on the hill right next to the capital Or far away like the Iro horses from Salamanca and iron from Persepolis :eek: .

I'm thinking that with this start, everyone else's will probably be good too. Because of this, I expect our UU's resource to be far away. This will lead to a lot of trading (or warring ;) ) which is what a lot of people wanted.

I'm leaning towards BW -> IW (or alpha second). Although our second tech we research will depend a lot on who our neighbor is. We won't be researching alpha if our neighbor started with it.

OK we seem to have a consensus on BW so vote now or forever hold your peace.

My view of the mapmaker's decision on resources is that it will be either
1. Readily accessable (I think more likely this will be the case)
2. Tradeable with the civ on our continent. IE if the Iroquois are on our continent we would have horses and they would have iron so dealmaking comes into play.

I think we shouldn't go for the philo free tech. As long as any other team starts with alphabet we pretty much have no way to get it.

Is there no AI involved at all in this game?

No there is not.

f we go BW then head straight for IW, no detour.

That said I like the notion of starting down the Monarchy road early, becoming a Celtic kngdom early and using Republic only when we have our position solidified. That means 12-16 towns, most of them at pop7.

So to me that suggests Warrior Code, then Mysticism, figuring we can trade for BW.

Looking at it that way leads me to the BW->IW conclusion.

That said I like the notion of starting down the Monarchy road early, becoming a Celtic kngdom early and using Republic only when we have our position solidified. That means 12-16 towns, most of them at pop7.

So to me that suggests Warrior Code, then Mysticism, figuring we can trade for BW.

Sounds good.

My Vote: BW -> IW.

I'm with Bede. I think we should attack another continents civ's core on a sea invastion. Would be the last thing they'd suspect.

Oh my, how will I ever get the required number of characters

More pics.......

Gotta love the name of our capitol. We need to have XTC's "Mayor of Simpleton" as our national anthem.

Gotta love the name of our capitol. We need to have XTC's "Mayor of Simpleton" as our national anthem.
:worship:
it also adds up to my demented mind to add "Mothership Connection" as our battle hymn.
voted late, but totally agree on BW > IW.

voted late, but totally agree on BW > IW. Brother Soul will say Aye to anything that makes for a good :hammer:

Brother Soul will say Aye to anything that makes for a good :hammer:
especially :beer: ;)

Since I'm always happy to jump onto a consensus band-wagon late in the game, my vote would also be BW - IW.

OK team, Bw will become known in two turns, then we'll research IW. Where should we go from there? I could make a case for continuing research up the top level of the research tree. Everyone else is probably going for one of the goverment techs or philosophy. If we continue on the top tier we'll have a better chance at a SGL. Plus if we have a monopoly on a few techs, we might be able to trade with the others.

I think we might want to head towards construction and/or currency.

10-4 on that one. Republic is going to be hard to pry from people's hands in my opinion. People know how valuable it can be and would grant that to a neighboring civ cheaply.

I vote to shoot for Monarchy. It's our best bet to get out of despotism asap:

- We already start with a monopoly on CB. I doubt the others will go for that early on, which will give us the headstart needed to keep getting monopolies (and SGLs).
- We will not be able to trade for republic easily
- We have to research 1 tech less, although I don't know how that compares in terms of beakers
- It fits perfectly with a GS rush... I suspect we won't need to research at 100 % so we can save some money
- Fighting human opponents will probably translate into more losses compared to fighting the AI. WW will be more of a problem, monarchy will solve that.

To add one thing to Crakie's good list:

Celts are REL so government chnages are cheap.

Head for Monarchy.

Does our Department of Intelligence have any input on the research choices of the PBEM Demogame crowd?

The total beaker cost of Monarchy is just a little more costly than Republic with the Philosophy gambit for a nation that starts with Alphabet. And about the same otherwise.

It is almost a lock (in my little brain at least) that the other teams will go for monarchy. They can't afford to change governments so my thinking is they anticipate war through a good part of the MA's and the only other government they would consider is commie (and that's a big maybe). They won't want to deal with 5 or so turns of anarchy. With that being said I think we can really be at an advantage if we monopolize that tech. I agree with Crakie. Wouldn't we still have a chance of a SGL if we go this path?

So...many...question... :twitch:

Okay, as a registered noob, these may be neophyte, but I have to ask...

IF it is a foregone conclusion that everone else will be rushing toward Monarcy
AND given that as a religous civ we can switch government's more easily

Would it make sense to go for Philosophy/Republic and rely on trades with our chosen ally to fill in the Monarchy route?

That assumes that anything along the Republic route would be worth trading the Monarchy techs.

Also, which route would give us a better shot at a SGL; the Monarchy route where we have the CB advantage (that may be lost becuase we are going for IW) or the Republic route that may be less traveled?

Another question, on the chance we are blessed with a SGL, is there a consensus as to what we should use him for? Scientific golden age or is there a Great Wonder that would be worthy of his sacrifice? (If I understand the rules correctly, GML can't be used for Wonders, but SGL can.

As of yet, I don't have an opinion, I just had to ask so...many...questions...

KB

Well, one thing I DO know is that Scientific Golden Ages are bugged and don't work. ;)

It is almost a lock (in my little brain at least) that the other teams will go for monarchy.
But what if the other teams are figuring the same thing, so one or more head for Republic in a hope to trade? Or maybe they are planning on being peaceful or not having many wars too early (Greece may be thinking this because of their Hoplites).

SGL=Pyramids. They would be overpowering for us as an ag civ.

Remember some teams (I'd guess Iroquois and Greeks) are going for the philo sling. My guess is they won't go for a republic sling because to research CoL and not philo would be a huge gamble. They will likely take mapmaking (or pottery if they don't have it) so they can get some galleys up and running.

Teams also must research pottery (my guess that's where Persia went unless they went straight to IW as well). Personally pottery is next to alpha as to importance in this game. I think the F11 analysis will prove this out soon enough whether teams have pottery or not.

One other thing for consideration. The cost of some techs by following the others will be cheaper hence could allow us to save some cash for our GS.

But what if the other teams are figuring the same thing, so one or more head for Republic in a hope to trade? Or maybe they are planning on being peaceful or not having many wars too early (Greece may be thinking this because of their Hoplites). My answer to that would be "attack them like there's no tomorrow" in fact I think we should warn the other teams that they better not use republic or they will pay a hefty price and we may consider it a declaration of war. :p There will be much greater losses in war with humans and the WW will be unbearable in republic for everyone but us. Think about the times when you've had 50% lux after a long war with the AI. It will be much faster with humans.

My answer to that would be "attack them like there's no tomorrow" in fact I think we should warn the other teams that they better not use republic or they will pay a hefty price and we may consider it a declaration of war. :p There will be much greater losses in war with humans and the WW will be unbearable in republic for everyone but us. Think about the times when you've had 50% lux after a long war with the AI. It will be much faster with humans.
Actually, I usually use Monarchy the whole game in SP games, so I wouldn't know how that feels. ;)

If anyone DOES research Republic before us we could make the following deal:

Give us Republic and we won't attack you for 100 turns. ;)

I'll get to work noodling on the granary bit. I have to think a while on how that affects things. It might just go directly to Life expectancy but not sure though. One thing is for sure the Iroquois (Team Doug H. Nuts) doesn't have one. There is no way that they could have gotten a settler & a granary in there.

Oh and my vote is head to Monarchy & use any SGL for a big pointy thing with 4 sides.

If we have iron, we don't need any of the horse techs. We will have a 3.2 2 movement giddyup man :D ....yee haw. only drawback is that they are 50 shields. :(

Actually, I usually use Monarchy the whole game in SP games, so I wouldn't know how that feels. ;)

If anyone DOES research Republic before us we could make the following deal:

Give us Republic and we won't attack you for 100 turns. ;)
I like you're thinking. You must be some sort of Idiot Civant or something. :D
I'm sure Bede can think of a good way to let them know they really should be kings since republics should only be used by a bunch of religious anarchic loser idiots who are grumpy old farmers and know some redheaded sword guys who may get a little nutty if they try becoming a republic.

only drawback is that they are 50 shields. :(
In [c3c] , the cost has been reduced to 40 shields.

Well, one thing I DO know is that Scientific Golden Ages are bugged and don't work. ;)


But what if the other teams are figuring the same thing, so one or more head for Republic in a hope to trade? Or maybe they are planning on being peaceful or not having many wars too early (Greece may be thinking this because of their Hoplites).
now were starting to double guess everybody, which will end up with us overly confused.
i would go for what WE think is our most needed tech route.
i agree with a run at monarchy, and just hope we get a SGL.
the chance is rather slim (5% right?)
i would use it for the GARDENS?

so my tech advace route would be IW > up to MONARCHY

I am not so sure the other teams will go for monarchy, but even if they do, we have a decent chance of staying ahead of them. If the free philo tech proved not too tempting for the Iro, they will still want to know where the horsies are and research the wheel first. The Persians will go for IW early on. The Greeks do not need a resource for their UU unfortunately.

Also, I really think we should be researching towards a government tech and not count on being able to trade easily, although striking a deal with a civ on another continent seems viable. We WILL need monarchy, it's too much of a gamble not to go for it.

I can see the argument for a government tech. If we are going for a government, I think we need republic.

SGL=pyramids

Let me preface by saying that I am radically undecided, but I have been studying/thinking :coffee:

I might be leaning toward a run on the Republic road. My thoughts are as follows...

The Monarchy path is a lot of techs with no benefit to us. We would have to research warior code, but our offensive unit will already be secure with IW. Mysticism/Plytheism don't do a thing for us except get us to Monarcy.

If we head for Republic, Alphabet will give us teh Curragh to start exploring. We move to writing, though I don't know what an embassy will do in a multi-team PBEM. Anyway, at that point, depending on the terrain or our contact with others, we could split off and head to Map Making if that seemed prudent (If we get a SGL I would even consider going to Literature to get the Great Library - keeping up with two of three opponents techs in this small game would be nice - pump up the gold!)

At any rate, once we are close to having writing we can make a judgment, Philosophy or Courthouses first (I'm assuming depending on what we think people are working toward).

As the only Religous civ, Republic is a viable option for us, and I think that we could have Monarchy in our back pocket via trade.

This is my thinking currently, though I am used to AI opponents and not human.

As I say, I am radically undecided at this point, but the course of my thinking heads down this road...

Kickbooti does have a point about the techs leading to Republic have a "side" purpose where as the ones to Monarchy really just get you to the MA.

There is something in the rules about staying at war "just for war-weariness". Which takes all of the fun out of threatening the non-REL civs with war if they become a republic.

I can make a pretty strong case that no one went for the Philo sling.

These are the 4 most important things in this game.
1. REXing--Requires Persians and Greeks research pottery first. My guess is they both started down this path.
2. Military--Iroquois have none so going philo doesn't seem to be in their best interest. It would leave them extremely vulnerable. So they'd have to research BW, WC or go for their UU wheel and HBR the way I see it. The other two are probably set in this area starting with spears and hoplites. Persians may go IW after Pottery and I think Greeks may have gone writing after pottery since they are less concerned about attackers.
3. Contacts--Greeks and Iroquois have the edge with early curraghs possibly going out right now. Let's hope they are on different continents.
4. Governments--I don't see anyone wanting to research CB so it's our monopoly. However it is still required by everyone along with the other two to get out of the AA so it's more valuable than we may think.
Also our edge because we can change governments anytime we want and they can't. The other teams must research the bottom half of the path at some point but I don't think it's a priority right now. Maybe after they have filled in some of the other requirements they will so maybe we can wait on the myst research until we make contacts.

Alpha makes more sense right now unless we make contact during our IW research. We will know a lot based on F11.

Well put Whomp.

BW=>IW=>Alpha seems to be our best course right now.

whomp, youi sold me on the Alpha path.
IW > ALPHA it is then,
and well see later

If curraghs are out already, which is possible, they will find us way before we're done with alpha. My guess is we're better of spending beakers on something we're likely not to be able to trade, thus, I'd like to stick to original plan. Having said that, I'm all for anything that helps early contacts I just don't think researching alpha will make that bif a difference.

I agree with Daghda, sending out curraghs is a waste. We have to a) research alphabet and b) make a coastal city, because our capitol will be busy pumping settlers and c) wait until production finishes and d) travel along the coastlines. By that time we can anticipate contact.

Although Whomp makes some good points, it's based on assumptions and no more than that. I'd rather go for something we will need no matter what, while having a decent chance of getting trade value.

EDIT: you know, curraghs have one thing going for them. If we send one out and stay near our continent at first, we might be able to trick our neighbours into thinking we're actually on the other continent :D

:confused: I'm torn on which way to go. So I'll leave it to you guys to decide.

BW=>IW=>Alpha seems to be our best course right now.I agree with Bugs.

Soul Warior is right, we don't want to second guessing of the competition to be our ultimate guiding prinicple, but I think Whomp may prove to be our Delphic Oracle regarding the paths our opponents take (any of the mind-readers who are mapping our opponents are welcome to chime in).

I am coming around to thinking that Alphabet may be best for the tech after IW with a 'Republic Run' as the long-range goal. Assuming we can trade for Monarchy Techs, having Republic will give us pious religous types a lot of strategic flexibility.

I'll throw this in here as well, while it is not a guarantee, I would argue form placing a city near GoddyHut Hill as our next settling move - who knows, we may get a tech that changes our approach a bit.

So, BW-IW-Alphabet

KB

Alpha makes more sense right now unless we make contact during our IW research. W's analysis is a good one all the way but I'll persisit in thinking alpha will be wasted beakers. Anyway, that's based on assumptions and like the quote says, we will be able to decide better based on what comes up during IW research.

Well it seems, for the first time, we have come to an impasse'. I like it in a weird kind of way. :D

So let's research IW and continue to discuss the next path. As we approach the end of IW we can vote. Most important, let's hope for a mutual research agreement.

I will add some benefits to alpha.
1. Though others may have curraghs and find us they won't give us their contacts. We want contact with all 3.
2. If not writing, it would allow research to math. A likely monopoly and cats.

The benefit of working the bottom half is WC could be our first researched tech towards Monarchy. Another solid tech in a PBEM.

IMO both will be beneficial long term.

IMO both will be beneficial long termThe same would apply to the short term as well. That is why I'm torn. Hopefully before we finish researching IW we can form an tech alliance with our continental neighbor.

Good idea, Whomp. Let's postpone the research discussion for a while, we might even pop something from that hut that will affect our priorities.

If we can cook up some kind of deal with the Greeks for the republic slingshot, I will change my vote to researching whatever required to honour that deal. If we have to self-research I am still inclined to go for monarchy.

I think our future research will depend on what happens at the negotiating table.

I've played Tubs pbem-save to the point where it's time to do the slingshot. We're Americans, MIA are Russians. Please play with it and learn about the mechanics. I figure if we're one turn ahead with CoL, they can sling it getting CoL from us and finishing Philo in 1 turn. pretty straight forward.

They'll have to give us Alpha and Writing, we give them CoL, they give us Republic. It's 3 for 1. I don't think they'll take it, even if we give IW as well.

IW, Pots, & CoL for Alpha, Writing, & Republic? It would be a fair trade. because they couldn't get to Republic that fast with out us. Also we could throw in CB & WC if they are hesitant

Perhaps we should look at all the AA techs, their research costs, their trade values and map out a research plan for the two civs. We research X, Y, and Z they research A,B, and C and we don't worry and J, K and L.

Exactly, Bugs. We must do that. Nothing worse than both ressearching the same tech.

I forgot we have Pot and CB as well, so it's a fair deal.

But we need a Plan B if they don't get Philo first. Let them research Republic and we do something else?

For plan B, one thought that might work in our favor is we run at Republic. Then we can run at min. science (or low) so we can cash rush our Gallic Swords. Win, win. They think we're cool because we offered to do it, they give all the techs they researched in the process and we get to our swords.

For plan B, one thought that might work in our favor is we run at Republic. Then we can run at min. science (or low) so we can cash rush our Gallic Swords. Win, win. They think we're cool because we offered to do it, they give all the techs they researched in the process and we get to our swords. Sound almost even beter :D . I'm in favour of a big, well hidden, SoC (stack of cash) for upping warriors. The research plan Bugs is proposing is what a mutual research deal is about I guess. We both save money by only working on half the techs, research 1 get 2.

research 1 get 2.
Isn't that what the AI do? Oh, I never though I'd see the day I might actually WANT to immitate the AI. :crazyeye:

What are the odds of getting MIA to research twice as many techs as we do? Not good I think.

What are the odds of getting MIA to research twice as many techs as we do? Not good I think. What I meant was we research tech 1,3,5,7,9 while MIA do 2,4,6,8,10 and we both get 1-10 by swapping. I included our own researched tech in "get". In any case a plan like you suggested earlier would be very useful.

Sounds great, Dagh! Let's hope MIA is smart enough to agree. It's a good deal for them too.

that combo research deal is sweet.
also, i very much like our SoC idea.
we win either way.

So, we're supposed to take on Writing now? I really don't know why the MIA haven't reserach it yet.
Just hope D'nuts haven't. :)

The D'nuts have a good UU in Mounted Warior. I think that they, like us are going to rush and make sure its available.

We should be good.

I hope...

I was stunned that MIA hadn't started on writing. Wheel? Would've never guessed.

Making us the writing researcher was brillant Whomp. :goodjob:

We now need to map out a proposal for who is going to research what. They are big on the reseach costs so let's factor that into the plan.

Any volunteers to do that? I can do it Thursday, but I think that may be too late.

Ok, this thread has been passive for too long :)

It appears that D'nuts (or TNT, which is unlikely) got Literature, probably via Philo-slingshot.

Shouldn't we go the Monarchy way now? Or maybe Currency/Constrution?

Not necessarily.... They could have just researched Literature instead of Philo. It wouldn't make sense but does anything the other teams have done so far made sense.

Is anyone else thinking that we are the only ones that aren't idiots?

Philo is half the cost ... And D'nuts have some big minds too.

@Tubs: wish I could help you there

Few ideas reg. research:
The sling is off and do we really need Rep when Monarchy is closer? The techs I see us and MIA doing asap is Poly, Monarchy, Maps. I'd like galleys soon so we can get a landing point overseas and block the gap. Then we could maybe do some :hammer: on one side in the war (if that is still on). When those techs are in we can slow down research and pile some cash.
This way me can trigger our GA in monarchy, extort some techs (maybe) and in general benefit from being bullies.

Until the turn we involve military we, and MIA, will of course do our best to even out the odds btw tnt/nuts and help them in keeping the war going.

I'm thinking that with our growth we could probably support a monarchy, especially with pyramids getting us to city size sooner. We can play the bully role easier and switch back to republic after GAge and a comfortable lead.

Well, if we already go for Monarchy, we can do some heavy warring, and we should grab some lands overseas. If we're only going to be the warkeepers (wow, what a word :woohoo: ), sending a small amount of troops for razing a couple of cities, then maybe Republic might be better from the start.

Of course, we're Religious, so we can change anytime, but both techs are expensive.

OK well I will pm Fe to send us Myst.

There are a number of scenarios that could play out. A lot hinges on whether we can play off of TNT and Donuts desperation with MIA's help.

Let's look at what MIA and we are up on Donut.
Up WC, wheel, CB, Myst.
Donut has
Writing (not so valuable), philo and another tech. They have run a peaceful tech path and that needs to change quickly.
With war afoot it is highly likely that TNT has IW and other stuff.

If we can get Donut to agree to a deal where they get cb, myst, wc and wheel. They are now free to research HBR and their UU. Happiness reigns in Donutia.

TNT-- if they have value to trade we can send them down the cb, myst, monarchy path. That could be very beneficial for us especially since we have zero anarchy issues.

In the meantime MIA finishes masonry while we finish CoL(SGL?). From there we can dictate course of action (map making? or slow burn on republic for the GS upgrade?)With CoL we also can see capital others can not.

Oh, the tangled webs we weave when we practice to deceive. :evil:

The free tech that D'nut got is more than likely Lit. Since our literacy reat is not 1st anymore.

Writing allows looking into other's cities, but only by establishing the embassy. Any other time there is a "investigating cost" associated with it.

The free tech that D'nut got is more than likely Lit. Since our literacy reat is not 1st anymore.

That makes sense based on the data, but why would they do that and not Code of Laws? If they are going for Republic it doesn't make sense.

Unless they love the Great Library and got or are hoping for a SGL...

Ah well, as Sherlock Holms says, "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable (or stupid) must be the truth."

I can't wait to meet TNT...

Bede has scheduled a meeting tonight with Fe at 9pm EST ish. Let's get everything we have to say out in the open for some salient talking points.

@Tubs chainchu for correcting me on embassies.

Why is MIA going to send us Myst? I don't think that they are going to hand it over unless something is given in return

Why is MIA going to send us Myst? I don't think that they are going to hand it over unless something is given in return
They said they sent it. Tubs did you see this? I will ask Fe to send it next turn. This could be valuable in dealing with TNT.

no diplo at the beginning..:hmm: are they pulling a d'nut?

no diplo at the beginning..:hmm: are they pulling a d'nut?
I doubt since we hold writing over them. I will let Fe know we didn't get it.

BTW does anyone have a page we can use that has all of the tech beaker costs? It would be useful for our negotiators when making deals.

Here ya go.... Becker costs will decrease once we meet someone with that tech.... I'd suggest someone on the negotiation team download CA2 and have the most current save (currently turn 43 that we sent to d'nuts) open when we talk.

The most recent save will always be the last save that we sent to the nuts. Although if they wait until we get our save again. The save that we sent to the nuts will be in the sent saves label in the gmail.

As promised

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/MTDG44_Mysticism.jpg

And the CAII screen from T44

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/MTDG44_Tech.jpg

What are we going to research after Writing? We have to decide in 4 turn :)

I'd say Monarchy, we might get a monopoly there. Of course, if we can get it fast enough.

I'd say maps. Nuts and tnt are busy whacking and won't expand much so we have a nice opportunity for some settlements if we hurry up a wee bit

Oh, I kinda forgot MM. Sure, we could settle the other continent with it. I vote for it.

I'm for MM.. Let MIA research towards Monarchy or Republic

I like MM, but is it a given that we aren't working a three-way for Republic with MIA and Nuts?

And if we get MM before Republic (which I think is a good idea), do we share it with MIA? Is our research co-op done after Republic or is it all AA techs?

I'm not sure about the original deal... and too lazy to go look it up. I don't mind sharing MM with MIA, but they'll have to give us something for it. They are the one's that wanted "a lot of little pieces" instead of the whole puzzle. We'll get republic one way or the other.....

I think bridging that gap and getting those cities defended will be #1 priority to getting a foothold over there before they know what hit them.

I don't see the priority over MM right now. I away from the forum a little while and haven't quite caught up with current affairs, but I'd say we get out of despotism asap. Monarchy is still quite a viable option for us (REL trade), we might find, through good diplomacy, a decent way to republic as well.

MM will allow us to send settlers over to the other continent, to help either TNT or D'nuts, in order to prolong their war. We can take control over the crossing point, also.

3 movement ships are always better than 2 movement ones.

Also, does MM allow us to trade maps in this game? I seem to remember the ability to trade maps was earlier in this game, but forget which tech it was changed to.

In my opinion getting out of despotism should definitely be our first research priority. If we went and settled the gap, we'd have to be ready to defend it, and we're nowhere near even starting to produce any real units even for homeland def. Plenty of time to grab some other government first.

I agree with getting to Repub. this also enhances our food to accelerate growth. Our expansion and growth is our ace in the hole. This game goes slow so it is hard to keep on track. Repub and 150% more cities than our closest rival will have this game in the bag in no time at all. Expansion and we will soon be able to overpower with science from beakers too.

Republic needs to be first. Then MM. We couldn't defend a beachhead against immortals right now any way.

Alright, the collected wisdom of our renown wariors has convinced me. Go for Republic.

But if we can't take it to TNT, I'll feel better when we have some GS roaming around and some more workers to connect the iron and luxuries to keep our (future) Republic of Idiots strong and happy.

I wasn't thinking MM for aggressive settling but just one city on each side of the gap (could of course be considered "aggressive", heh). I agree that we have way too weak military to risk any conflict. What I do think could be beneficial with MM is we can prevent anyone to take battles to our ground. A little fleet of galleys would do that for us. Then we don't have to worry that much about our lack of land units. At least I worry since I'm afraid our expansion will possibly be a paper castle if we we don't have the power to defend those cities. We rely solely on our friendship w MIA and that is a gamble that I'm not 100% comfortable with. If they decive us and hook up with others that can land units then we're in trouble, right? If they decive us but we only have to handle their units we could manage. I agree republic is wanted asap but I figure Nuts (prolly researching it right now) will have to wait some time before they revolt and make use of it. Things will clear up when we start talking to them and the possibility of getting rep with their help are on/off. Therefore, I maintain we should go for MM first.
Did this make any sense at all.....:crazyeye:

Well, AFAIK (as far as idiot knows) we are the fastest-researching nation, simply because of our sheer size. So we could carry our Republic or Monarchy, while MIA (or D'nut, if they're researching at all) starts on MM.

Our size over the next 20-30 turns will take care of the military too. Once a couple 2nd ringers start knocking out vet warriors for future upgrade we will be sitting pretty.

Our size over the next 20-30 turns will take care of the military too. Once a couple 2nd ringers start knocking out vet warriors for future upgrade we will be sitting pretty. Then I'll take a much skilled warmongers word for it. I'm just a nervous lil builder anyway :coffee:

OK. Writing is ours! The problem is what's next?

Zero research until the deal is done with D'nut?

EDIT::: One other thing of note is that Persia has Masonry here is a screenshot from the pre-turn save.

Zero research for a turn is probably all we can do. Then, Republic at full speed.

No way on 0 research, we need to put something forward by ourselves. Anyways, at worst, we'll have to exert a strong arm's pressure over the other nations - which is arguably good even.

Had to do 0 research this turn do to impending deal with the Nuts.

Now I have a question....next turn we'll get Philo & CoL. Our current 80% (max because of happiness) science output is 18 beakers. Divide that into 840 (Republic tech cost) and you get 46 turns plus tax). I realize that the beaker output will grow in that time span, but how much. Is it worth it to burn to Republic or just make a min run? At 10% we'll be gaining 15 gold per turn. Nice for GS upgrading and/or embassies (~50 per).

My feeling is that we do a min run on it. Don't know what the neighbors will think but I think that we could get ALL of their techs when we get it.... maybe have a deal where we get their techs as they research them. We could call it a security deposit.
Ave rate Turns
18 46.6
19 44.2
20 42
21 40
22 38.2
23 36.5
24 35
25 33.6

I garee w Tubs. We'll be first to rep. anyway.

Great job Tubs. This fits right into our plans. :evil: We can always notch up the research speed later in the cycle.

Definetely minimal science on republic.

Forgive my ignorance, but why haven't the Doughnuts started on republic?

Definetely minimal science on republic.

Forgive my ignorance, but why haven't the Doughnuts started on republic?
I think they realized, with TNT on the warpath, they needed to beeline to their UU after taking a peaceful path. Hence, the wheel research.

Hard to imagine how all this could have turned out any better for us hehehe

Could we maybe have the AA tech tree with the latest CA2 on techs superimposed on it. It would then be easier (at least for me) to see the big plan in research and how we could make the most out of it.

UPDATED: here you go.. I couldn't wait :)

:woohoo: It's always good to hear good news from Sid ...

Rough draft KISSMIA Master Plan
The background:
--MIA had researched writing per their discussions with Donuts.
--MIA is writing to Doughnut that they are extremely upset with Doughnut for backing out of a deal for writing, CoL and Philo for WC, CB and IW.
--We got wheel from a hut. It fits.

While we research republic the other teams will do this.
--MIA will have masonry and will research map making, lit then poly (though I’d prefer TNT goes this path).
We would like Doughnut to research HBR, maths and currency and we give wheel now and republic when finished. They will give techs as they finish since they are at war. We can explain the math path by telling them about the TNT iron hill.

The aftermath.
So we are up CoL and Philo on MIA and they are up masonry.

We can say we traded for masonry and alleged gpt (transparent on the diplo screen) for CoL.
Then when Doughnut gives us HBR we can trade philo and HBR for map making and future considerations (harbors will be up so lux is an alleged option). This is when we show our relationship has warmed up to MIA.
Finally, currency and republic for lit and MIA's free tech in the MA.

Maybe MIA can go construction to finish the tree while we go poly? Doughnut self researches lit and map making?

Do we sell map making and lit to Doughnut and split the profit? Where does TNT fit in?
How to explain giving republic to MIA? Gold, lux, Mil. alliance vs. TNT, free tech ? Help me fill in the puzzle.

Now that MIA will meet TNT hopefully they can convince TNT to head down the monarchy path!! :dance:

They should give them the knowledge of myst explaining they may need to be a monarchy like TNT needs the knowledge and have TNT research Poly.

Where does TNT fit in?
:ar15: :help: <-- Here. :crazyeye:

I just hope we can manage to get MIA's free tech for Republic. Isn't the current deal that we sell it for a couple of AA techs? Our diplo team has some work to do then. :)

Regarding our Master Plan: It could as well lead to D'nuts not trading with us. I'd be very careful about this.

They are getting republic and wheel for hbr, maths and currency. I think that's a very fair deal.

Nice draft Whomp :goodjob:. I won't dabble with this, you do it much better.

Looking pretty good, and any dealings with MIA can be hidden in the "Free Tech" ploy, considering that any of the MA techs are worth Republic and then some.

TNT is the odd man out. They have made their bed of nails and someone will make them lie in it. If they make it much past the opening window of the Middle Ages I would be surprised. And the only way they will get that far is if we help them out.

Whomp, your scheme seems fine, let's hope we can make it fly.

On another note, I usually like to hire a scientist instead of researching at 10 %.; it saves quite a bit of money. Do we have a city at the moment that could do that?

No city right now can be wasted.... @ 10% we are only contributing 1 G to the beakerheads.

So a scientist would actually waste more money. Once Effing Whomping Rower gets to size 2 after it's worker build, that second citizen can be swithced over to a scientist. Between the 90% corruption and the temple build it would be a great location for that.


Thanks Crakie :thumbsup:

If we pay 1g for researching, a scientist would be a waste, because a taxman gives 2gpt.

But when we grow (and so does our income), a scientist will probably a better choice. But not now.

Agreed. Effning Whomping Rower is an excellent city for hiring a scientist when it's big enough. Until then, we might want to evaluate from time to time when we are wasting money (i.e. more than 2 gpt difference in 0 and 10 % research) and see if we can remedy it.

I had to dig deep to find this thread....

Since MIA sent MAsonry last turn, we are wway behind in techs.

MIA has HBR, Maps, & MAth ahead of us.
D'nut has MAth and HBR
TNT has Math over us but don't have Writing, Myst, Philo, or CoL.

Should we trade with TNT just to keep us up to speed and keep the war going on over accross the chunnel?

Do we really need math at the moment? If that is what we can get from TNT I say no to trading w them. I don't see how Writing, Myst, Philo, or CoL would help the either. I suggest we stay cool dudes and wait for rep. and then update our tech status.

ok... just throwing out ideas... however bad they might be.

Keep throwing Tubby, and I'll keep questioning.....however wrong I might be :lol: .

I thought MIA was giving us their techs as they come in, in exchange for republic when we finish it? Anyway, republic will be very valuable, no problem to catch up I feel.

We'll get everything with Republic. The problem is, somebody can have Currency or Construction by then, and doesn't tell us.

I'd wait until we get Rep (or do it a turn or 2 before, so we can negotiate the deal), then buy Maths from TNT, and only then sell Rep to D'Nuts and MIA.

Maybe my post was too long...it was autorazed :lol: . MIA asks if we want to do Construction or Poly. I'd say Poly even if we can trade it with Nuts. MIA wants to sign a non-trading overseas agreement after swap for Rep. They're afraid of Nuts. Fine, let's sign it and keep Battle Island behind. Good thing is, id we choose Poly we get first to MA because research pace will speed up once we get luxes hooked up. then we get to do Feudalism and MIA goes Mono-->Theo-->Education. they end up with nice techs while we have the nasty ones. they want to swap those when Edu is in...fine. let's agree to that and hit 'em just before that trade. We have pikes, MI + knights, they can build cathedrals, go figure :D . If they're first (because we're not finished with construction) into MA they can get Feud as free tech and we don't want that because then they want us to do the edu-path which would be a bummer. I'm not sure though about the mechanics on the free tech. Maybe they can get feud. even if we've done some turns on it? If they get Engineering, no probs. they can plant trees. However the deal is phrased about the goings after entering MA I think it's a good thing if we get there first and therefore chose to actually do Poly. I don't think they would sign an agreement without being assured Rep won't go to Nuts. Maybe TNT, but not Nuts. I see such an agreement as a loss on short term but a huge advantage in long term. If we can only accept the downside on not getting to trade rep we will set up a nice scenario for an unexpected whack of MIA and then straight to Cavs and an invasion of the backward Battle Island.

I don't see why we couldn't trade with the other continent.... They've been doing it while we COULDN'T. Now that we are about to be able to trade a commodity overseas, they want to stifle us. Something doesn't smell right.

Also no one will get to the MA first. I'm not sending a tech to MIA without something that has already been given or without them adding something to the trade. I think that they might be doing the same thing.

As far as the free tech, they can get any tech in the MA that they have access to. So that would be Mono, Eng, or Fued. I think that it is equal chances, but I'm not too sure about percentages.

I don't see why we couldn't trade with the other continent.... They've been doing it while we COULDN'T. Now that we are about to be able to trade a commodity overseas, they want to stifle us. Something doesn't smell right. Exactly what I told fe and I agree 100%. That is asking a lot! But then again there is nothing wrong with leaving Nuts and TNT behind is it...? If we have MIA as our first target I for one would like a possible gang up to backward.
Also no one will get to the MA first. I may be getting this wrong but if we finish Poly before they finish Construction wouldn't that mean we go first?

I see nothing wrong with leaving TNT & D'nut behind. We might even be able to "buy" D'nuts in on the war with MIA with some techs that they lack. And we could "help out" MIA by sending troops to their core :devil: It just seemed like they are getting us by the short hairs right when diplo is opened up for us. But if they abide by the strict no overseas trades then I'm fine with green isolationist strategy.

Well if we finish Poly before they finish Construction, that means that we will still lack Construction. So we aren't in the MA yet. That last trade will probably be a one-for-one trade. No early giving of that last AA tech.

I see nothing wrong with leaving TNT & D'nut behind. We might even be able to "buy" D'nuts in on the war with MIA with some techs that they lack. And we could "help out" MIA by sending troops to their core :devil: It just seemed like they are getting us by the short hairs right when diplo is opened up for us. But if they abide by the strict no overseas trades then I'm fine with green isolationist strategy.

Well if we finish Poly before they finish Construction, that means that we will still lack Construction. So we aren't in the MA yet. That last trade will probably be a one-for-one trade. No early giving of that last AA tech.

I think isolationist would serve us well until it's :hammer: -time. On the getting out of AA....:blush: . Don't know what I was thinking or if I was thinking at all.

EDIT: If we do poly and finish first we will sit on it when MIA sends Construction and be the first to choose MA tech...game mechanics someone?
Can someone familiar with the pbem mechanics confirm that if we finish poly before MIA construction (likely when luxes are hooked up) we can sit on zero research for some turns and then when MIA sends construction we go into MA first and can choose Feudalism.

How exactly would being the first to MA and choosing Feudalism help us?

If we go first we will start on Feud (military). If MIA go first they can get Feud as free tech (they might get it anyway, dunno 4 sure). If they get feud it is logical that they will go on the lower tire of the tree and we go mono --> education. I wouldn't like that. If the plan I have in mind is to work it is imperative that we do the military techs. If mia gets mono for free then it's all fine and they will head for edu but we don't know that. i think we can argue for completing feud on ourselves (if they do not want to sell it) even if mia gets it for free because we don't want to waste a turn of 100% research.

I think that you are thinking too much, Dag. If they are going the top route, it doesn't matter what they get. And they have to get fued regardless to get Theology. Basically we'll end up researching Feud or Eng and they'll end up researching Mono or Fued. Depending on what they get. Fued is a pre-req for both 2nd teir paths in the MA IIRC.

You're prolly right Tubs, but maybe we should discuss how to handle MIA's free tech anyway. Do we just let it happen, see what it will be and take it from there, or do we want to make a proposal about it in advance?

I think that if they want us to be a research partner they can't let us research something that they already have. best case is that they share the tech with us... worse case is that they get Fued or Eng and decide to take the military path, to which we say screw you and start back up in the war room.

We must get their free tech if we're helping them through to the MA. Otherwise we go down construction and let them research it too.

This has been posted in the MIA diplo thread, but is relevant here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=110700&stc=1&d=1136669332

For future consultation, thuis is turn 85, we've just received the save from MIA with no techs attached.

What are we researching next?

Also, I think MIA's free tech is a non-starter as well. That's their trait, they picked it and can enjoy it. We will know what they have and can always negotiate/threaten for it.

Incidentally, watching MIA fold on Polly makes me think that the money spent on GS might be the best use for future research dollars...

We can start researching Construction. @ ~-10 gpt we can research it in 7 (65 bpt) or @ ~+10gpt we can research it in 10 (45 gpt)

I need some input

I think we need to crank up since the markets will help the gpt and our lack of anarchy will help us to catch up a bit. Remember we have to potential for a trade on monarchy with Donut about the time we go to war.

How much do we have in our treasury, is it more than 70 gold?

yes we currently have 23G with 58 coming in before next turn. so a total of 81G next turn. I have the the todo stating to switch to 60% which is -18gpt with constr due in 6 turns. We can run 4 turns at that rate then back off as needed.