Welcome to the Foreign Ministry, I am your Foreign Minister Black_Hole ;)
Chances are this term will be quite boring in this department...
If you need anything please post.

Opposing Teams
Iroquois - Team Doughnut
Persia - Team TNT
Celts - Team K.I.S.S.

Diplomats
Will be appointed upon meeting a civ

Black_Hole is walking home after celebrating at the Prez's modest abode ... truth be told ... a little bit, teenie weenie drunk ... and being the closet Stalone fan that he is ... he is trying desparately to whistle the theme from Rocky ...

Concentration interupted by a Shadow - "Psssst ! ... Psssst ! ... Minister ! ... I have just picked up some disturbing information that could be of interest to the Team"

Looks around cautiously - "A foolish Nobody from the Donutters has slipped up and publically boasted that a poll was taken discussing whether or not to invade MIA ... this speaks quite loudly about the psychology of this team ... and their style and intent ..."

Looks around again - "I have confirmed that this Nobody is in fact a member of the Doughnut Team"

Here is Evidence (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2947338&postcount=15)

Melts back into the Shadows

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Feaurius.JPG

Fe3333au has spoken

"No need to worry yet, there is a 66% chance that they are on the other continent and it will take ages to get over here... We haven't even *hiccup* met tem yet"

:blush: Would you believe a Crystal Ball ?? or ... ummm ... the Gift of Reading Chicken Entrails :cringe: ...

Oh and next you'll be tellin' us you don't like Rambo ;)

Team 1 revealed their start, are we expected ot reveal ours? Should we? my first insticnt is no- unless we're forced to, no need to give people a free look.

The iroqoius-who are agricultural- got a bunch of desert and frsh water. as a commercial civ, might we expect high food bonuses (to create pop givining our cities extra commerece), and river bonuses to provide plenty of gold?

and the persians? possibly some hilly land to provide shields related to their industrious trait? Or the Celts to also get some desert and frsh water?

I agree unless we are instructed by a mod then there is no need to post our info ... we can put it down to the crystal ball or chicken entrails i mentioned before ;)

Guys, those are fakes!!!

Look at the screenshot url : "http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/fooliroq1.jpg"
They are simply tricking us into thinking they got a bad start
Plus I strongly doubt Rik gave us an enormous advantage

Guys, those are fakes!!!

Look at the screenshot url : "http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/fooliroq1.jpg"
They are simply tricking us into thinking they got a bad start
hmmmm... should we do the same? or double reverse psych? by naming them something that makes them look like they're real, and making sure they notice (put in an extra http:// at the begining, so people have to look at the adress to find the real picture, thinking its fake. Or maybe they did that to us...

Plus I strongly doubt Rik gave us an enormous advantage

we could still be resource poor, and they're land filled with iron, uranium, oil saltpeter, etc.


Oh Foreign Minister, if we reveal the treachory of those from the donut shop; we could gain much trust from TNT and K.I.S.S. As we're not allowed to contact the teams before we meat them in-game- we have two options. 1) post in the thread shouting "they're fake they're fake! -This announcement brought to you by your friendly Team MIA" but we should ask the admins first to make sure it's alright. Or we could talk to the first team we meat and tell them- gaining a lot of trust. I would choose the later (after all we don't want to publicaly claim the iroquis are liars qand have them as neighbors

I think that we should keep this to ourselves. Once contact is made, we can revisit the question.

After all - I'm sure there are people on the other teams just as clever and inquisitive as Black_Hole. They will figure it out soon enough.

After all - I'm sure there are people on the other teams just as clever and inquisitive as Black_Hole. They will figure it out soon enough.

which does nothing to gain their trust.

Let's look at from another angle.

We suspect the screenies are fakes. If we saw the Persians posting that the images are fakes, will we be more likely to trust them because of it?

Or, if, once contact has been made, the Celts inform us of their suspicions that these are forgeries, will we instantly think better of them for it?

I doubt it. We would be suspicious of their motives. In other words, I really don't think we will gain anything by outting the Iroquios.

why not PM the others? This way it won't directly anger Dougnut, something like:

"Hi Guys, I just wanted to warn you that the screenshots posted by doughnut are fake. etc....."

This way we can gain their trust and discredit dougnut, without dougnut knowing

Let's look at from another angle.

We suspect the screenies are fakes. If we saw the Persians posting that the images are fakes, will we be more likely to trust them because of it?

Or, if, once contact has been made, the Celts inform us of their suspicions that these are forgeries, will we instantly think better of them for it?

I doubt it. We would be suspicious of their motives. In other words, I really don't think we will gain anything by outting the Iroquios.

I'd certianly trust them a bit more; but more importantly i would certainly not trust the irouois. That's the real gain here, distrustof the iroquois.

what do we have to gain by keeping quiet?

I'd actually like to discuss further the Kiech Gambit

1. Although titled *OFFICIAL* Team Doughnut turnlog ... It seems almost certain that the entire posting is fake ... and therefore intended to confuse :mad:
2. This is the second time this team has spammed the thread ... the other is the post I humourously ( :blush: it made me laugh at least) refered to near the top of this thread. :nono:

:hammer: I am wondering if the actions of Team Doughnut goes against the spirit of Article 4.3 of the Game's Ruleset ... which is the Fairness Pledge ...



Every team must agree to the fairness pledge before the game starts:

“I pledge to compete fairly and within the rules of the game. I pledge to adhere not only to the written rules, but also to the unwritten, spirit of the rules. I understand that failure to live up to this pledge may result in penalties for me and my team.”

... or if they are guilty of cluttering up the public thread with spam ...

Should the mods be asked to warn or indeed punish this team ... :nospam:

I personally think that at the very least
>That particular thread should be removed
>Team Doughnut are forced to publically apologize to the other teams for Spamming :clap:

:evil: If it is discussed at the UN level ... we should perhaps request that Doughnuts post their true starting position as a punishment ... :spank:

why not PM the others? This way it won't directly anger Dougnut, something like:

"Hi Guys, I just wanted to warn you that the screenshots posted by doughnut are fake. etc....."

This way we can gain their trust and discredit dougnut, without dougnut knowing

because we aren't allowed to talk to them until we meet them in-game.

:evil: If it is discussed at the UN level ... we should perhaps request that Doughnuts post their true starting position as a punishment ... :spank:

no. we don't want to give them punishment. because then they can say "we've seen the error of our ways and now pledge to never lie to you guys again" I'd rather have everyone think "those jerks! they tricked us" It's all politics, why give them a chance to redeem themselves?

To be honest, I think what the Iroquios did was pretty clever. As far as I can tell, posting the [misleading] images is not actually in violation of the fairness pledge. If another team believes the images (as I did until Black_Hole alerted) then their ruse will have worked.

I kind of hope that we'll be able to successfully (and legally) pull of something like that. Disinformation can be a very powerful tool.

As for the 'invade team MIA' thread I have not yet read it, so I cannot speak to a pattern of behavior on the part of the Iroquios.

To be honest, I think what the Iroquios did was pretty clever. As far as I can tell, posting the [misleading] images is not actually in violation of the fairness pledge. If another team believes the images (as I did until Black_Hole alerted) then their ruse will have worked.

I kind of hope that we'll be able to successfully (and legally) pull of something like that. Disinformation can be a very powerful tool.

As for the 'invade team MIA' thread I have not yet read it, so I cannot speak to a pattern of behavior on the part of the Iroquios.

I believed it too. and i don't think its against the fairness pledge either (although using the words 'official' might be going a bit far)-they lied, it's not like we're going to lie. besides if it was a true screenshot they'd have broken the rule forbidding the trading of maps until navigation. RM & GA's silence will prove they are fake.

I don't want to post something fake. we can't be the only team who realized this, and them seeing ours...no. maybe later, but not the first turn

i find it strange they offered no explination; i would expect whether fake or not they would say "just to be nice" or something.

This had to be planned beforehand, and the mods read their forum; so it wouldn't be against the rules, the mods would have stopped them.

okay, members from team 2&4 have noth posted in the thread, neither revealing they know anything (not saying they do or don't)

also, regent man has been active since the thread was posted, and didn't do anything, like claiming its in violation of rule 1.6; so either they know and its okay, or he's PM'd RM to delete it. I'd expect him to say something if something was wrong, so I feel almost certain the the shots are fake. Congratualtions to BH for pointing this out :goodjob:

I feel like an idiot.
I just PMed regent man asking if it was OK to look at that thread. :wallbash:

My point is that we shouldn't even know that there is an iroquois in the world ... so their posting should be concidered spam ...

Doesn't matter if they are slapped on the wrist or not ... cos we (and any thinking team) now know that the Donuts play at (i must say) a very amateur and unsubtle mind game ... I know that we can do a lot better :evil: ... so team, we have won round one ... (and the donuts don't even know it) ... well done :beer:

they could be real Rik could have given them a bad start but a great finish (like surrounding areas are loaded) that could be the way it was supose to be... they could have double reverse physcologied us (did i spell that right?) well anyway them just posting their starting postition does seem a bit strange

all im saying is that we shouldn't make a hasty decision who knows that could really be where they are and then again it might not be (never assume)

have you seen riks comments in the thread?
Sounds like his joking - I dont think that the start is real

RM: I'm as serious as the thread-starter.

He is certainly joking. Did you notice some of the othe comments? Sounds like there were some hasty posts - loose lips sink ships!

Congratulations to all of us for thinking first, and not opening up our darn fool mouths.

have we decidded whether to tell the other teams?

I'm not sure. I guess our Foreign Minister should make the ultimate decision.

We can't contact the other teams without using the UN forum... Which would anger Team Dougnut but please the other teams...
If we find that team dougnut is on our starting island, we will wish we didn't do that, if we find one of the other teams we will wish that we did...

Chances are 2/3 to 1/3 that it is not Team Dougnut, but that is not a large marigin...

So do we want to risk that we are not on the same continent as Team Dougnut(most likely there will be 2 continents with 2 teams each)?

I wonder if the Persians and Celts are having this same conversation: To warn of clever tricks or to keep silent?

I say we just alert whoever we meet on our island; we don't take risk, and we gain the trust of the most important ally- our neighbors.

Are we certain of the map being two continents? I was just looking for the thread that would tells us the map parameters, but I couldn't find it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/halt1.JPG

I Strongly Urge Caution !!

>This information should be unknown !!!
>We should not have communication until we have met in game ... this certainly is in the rules !!!

I strongly recomment that either Team Captain or a Minister seek clarification in this ... I would send a PM to the 3 mods and request a Ruling !!! ... ask them to visit this thread should surfice :thumbsup:

The Doughnut team should not have done this ... I can see the humour ... ha ha :rolleyes: ... However there is nothing to gain by sending PM's to other teams ...

I suspect that the other teams already know ... the title of the saves should be shouting loud enough to tell anyone that the start map thread was a prank ...

I am totally against contact with the other teams until the mods have ruled whether the Donuts prank is legal or not ...

<breath> <giggle> <another drink>

That was pretty cooool :clap: ... as well as Jester ... can i be Doom Merchant :p

I agree with the tell our neighbor's idea, though Rik made a leading post in the thread which might've given them away.

I don't think anyone was seriously proposing precontact messaging. Obviously that's not permitted. I thought the question was more about whether or not to inform AFTER we have made contact with another civ.

And I restate: I think it's ultimately up to our Foreign Minister how to handle the contact (if we even make contact this term!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/halt1.JPG

I Strongly Urge Caution !!

>This information should be unknown !!!
>We should not have communication until we have met in game ... this certainly is in the rules !!!

correct on the last point, but not the first. we have nothing to gain by keeping it to ourselves

I strongly recomment that either Team Captain or a Minister seek clarification in this ... I would send a PM to the 3 mods and request a Ruling !!! ... ask them to visit this thread should surfice :thumbsup:

their silence speeks volumes

The Doughnut team should not have done this ... I can see the humour ... ha ha :rolleyes: ... However there is nothing to gain by sending PM's to other teams ...

sure they can, they lied, lieing isn't against the rules

I suspect that the other teams already know ... the title of the saves should be shouting loud enough to tell anyone that the start map thread was a prank ...

how many do you think looked at the title? and were able to see the word "fool"?

I don't understand then ... explain why it is ok to have contact through a fake map when the rules state that no contact to be made unless you meet in game?

Because it was a fake map, and because Rik let it go through (which tells everyone the images are fakes) they didn't break the rules, imho:

1.6 - Invalid Map Trading

Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade any sort of map, whether it be a screen shot, minimap, hand drawing, or any other 'picture' of the in-game map, mini-map, or embassy screenshot before the requisite tech is discovered. Verbal/text descriptions are allowed, but coordinates are not.

[boldness mine.]

plus itwas in the U.N. forum, which may be underr different rules

EDIT: I have just PM'd GA, RM, and R_M as to what options would be legal; and judging by Rik's profile, I should be recieveing a response any minute now.

This is the message I sent

MIA has strong feelings that the screenshots posted by donut are fake, considering the adress listed in the screenshots has the word"fool" in it. We are talking about revealing this information with the other teams, may I get some clarification as to which of the following are allowed:

directly PM'ing the other teams and telling them what we know posting in The UN forum thread the information we know
telling the other teams we meet in-game the information we know

we just want to follow the rules; you can see more of our discussion about the screenshots in the foreign minister thread in the MIA forum; thank you in adance for your clarification

:thanx:

So far these are the reponses I have recieved:

Hi Ybbor,
cc:Regentman, Ginger_Ale

I'm not a game-admin; Ginger and Regentman are. Personally I say: don't spoil the joke for the other teams. They'll notice soon enough that it is a joke. When they check F11 and see the Iro capital they realise the Iro's did NOT move their settler as the joke-thread suggested.

But: ask Regent or Ginger.

Regards,
Rik

It's just a joke and all replies hav shown that. Lets just not make a big deal about this thread and it's contents.

Lets just not make a big deal about this thread and it's contents.

The calm voice of reason.

Okay ;) ... and then if the joke is still active ... we can then share with the teams we meet :thumbsup:

Chances are this term will be quite boring in this department...
Most popular thread here. ;)

If you want to tell the other teams your findings, then posting in that thread would be the best way.

Most popular thread here. ;)

If you want to tell the other teams your findings, then posting in that thread would be the best way.
I don't think we will be incase we get stuck with Team Dougnut on the same continent...

Coolvonhelio told everyone it was fake....

Just goes to show that our team were well on the way in the diagnosis of motive and character flaws by the time the rest of the world made his discovery ... ;) ... hmmmm very Grecian :D

I was just reading the Constitution and I noticed that the document is silent on the issue of recalling and replacing Diplomats. As these are appointed positions, I guess that Foreign can replace and appoint at will. I have no problem with this, just wanted everyone to be aware.

i think that infomation like this should be exchanged once the teams meet ingame


Not sure if this is the correct thread, but we should talk about the above. It comes from this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125204

I will of course defer to the wise cousel of our Foreign minister and Team Captain, but I think we should not agree ab origem to the exchange. We should withhold the right to exchange so that we can use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations. I expect other teams to feel the same way... Unless they are irrational anarchists ;)

I will of course defer to the wise cousel of our Foreign minister and Team Captain, but I think we should not agree ab origem to the exchange. We should withhold the right to exchange so that we can use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations.

I think you're taking this too seriously. what does it matter whether another team knows we have a domestic minister or not? I certianly could care less. I can't see us getting even 1 gold for the information; I certianly would never pay for such useless information. If the other team wants it, i would rather give it to them in the spirit of good will; then be known as cheapskates who keep everything secret.

I think you're taking this too seriously....... I certianly would never pay for such useless information

This is exactly why I'm glad I'm on a team with experienced players. Also why I will always defer to wise counsel! But I must say, I found it fun to read the responses from the other teams' members in the UN thread.

Not sure if this is the correct thread to speculate about our rivals?

However until this is clarified or I am instructed by Foreign Minister ... I will post here ...

Fact: we know that team Doughnut has the first city to reach population 2

What does this tell us about closer tiles around the D-Nut's capital?

> Wheat + River + Grassland ?
> any others?

... perhaps our model makers can answer this ??

Not sure if this is the correct thread to speculate about our rivals?

However until this is clarified ...

Fact: we know that team Doughnut is the first city to reach population 2

What does this tell us about closer tiles around the D-Nut's capital?

this is definatly the thread.

but it certianly tells us they're probably working a wheat on a floodplain; i don't think they could get to 2 any other way.

Since they are agricultural, they could also grow in 5 turns with a city on a river working a cow or wheat on grass.

So what do these gleamings also tell us about their commerce base?

On a first glance, since they are commercial they will certainly have a powerful slider. Ancient gold (i've found) is more valuable than Modern gold.

On a second glance, since they are already a 2, a settler factory is possible for them in the very near future....unless they go for a granary....?

We will be able to monitor the population drop the turn it occurs ... and with that create a model that fits that which is observed ... a model constructed with the assumption that the working tile is constantly worked throughout the period ...

This is why I think that we have to be the team that establishes all embassies ... because which each embasy we get a picture of their capital which can then be modeled and if we are lucky it is the city with the strongest production and used to build units/wonders/etc.

fe3333au:
This is why I think that we have to be the team that establishes all embassies

This may be something towards which to strive. The establishment of embassies will cost (ballpark) 400 gold. If we are the first to gain embassies in all three other capitals, and leverage that into brokering contact and scientific trade, we can become very powerful in the Middle Ages.

The gold won't be a problem. It's the exploration that will determine our success.

i stumbled across a pic of doughnuts start loc. Daveshack accidently posted it in the Civ3 - Multi-Team Demogame forum. would it be fair if i told our team about it?

I also opened the thread but didn't read it after I realised what it was. I have pmed regent man about it.

I did not see it ... :mischief: these are my thoughts ...

1.Well I think that it constitutes accidental espionage ...

2. Saddly you and any other team member who glimsed the map, suffered amnesia after a very big scare ... seeing our prezident's first thing in the morning ... and can therefore not join in any Doughnut musings

3. Not sure if this should be mentioned in UN ... thought that something was mentioned in the rules somewhere

I never saw the map. But fortunately I dont think their will be any major doughnut musings for a while.
Unfortunately, that means that I cant reveal what I know.
Fortunately, that means that I wont accedently reveal any information and get expelled from the game
Unfortunately, that means you have to put up with me a while longer :D
Wait... dont i mean Fortunately, oh bother...

0.4.1 - Inadvertent or Accidental Espionage

Description/Procedures: An accidental viewing of a private or secure area due to a security hole or other bug/glitch in any software should not be considered a deliberate act of espionage provided the following conditions are met:
a. The members must have exited the private area immediately upon such discovery (it is up to each forum to clearly label its private areas.)
b. The member must privately inform his team leader of the inccident, the team leader must put the member in contact with one of the game staff and the member must give the game staff details about the incident (how it happened, how much was seen, etc.) The game staff will then inform the violated team of its security problem and which team violated their security and then determine what action if any should be taken against the member. Action to be taken should not exceed a 50-turn exclusion of the member from the game.

Seems the course of action is quite clear. Both Meleager and Azzaman333 must tell Ybbor, who will put both in touch with game staff. I would expect punishement (if any) to be very light. After all, DaveShack made a mistake, and sooner or later somebody was bound to stumble on it. Just happened to be you guys. Also, other teams may have come across it first.

Seems the course of action is quite clear. Both Meleager and Azzaman333 must tell Ybbor, who will put both in touch with game staff. I would expect punishement (if any) to be very light. After all, DaveShack made a mistake, and sooner or later somebody was bound to stumble on it. Just happened to be you guys. Also, other teams may have come across it first.
I do think that it would be wise for you guys to tell what you accidently looked at.

So, i need to tell ybbor to tell the game staff what i accidentaly saw. Is that correct?

Yep ... and then tell the staff what you saw and more importantly the hows and whys of you and Mel viewing this ... perhaps the title may have indicated that it was something not to open ...

I'll take this as my notification. I will PM RM notifying him of the incident, with basic details. Azzaman, you need to PM Regentman (GA is on vacation). Meleager I would strongly recomend that you PM RM, considering you did not see any classified information.

I've received a PM from Meleager, but not one from azzaman333. I would like for him to PM me teling me exactly what he saw. From the looks of it, it was accidental and no punishments will be issued. I will inform DaveShack of the incident, and hopefully the game won't be ruined.

What was the name of the thread? Surely if it was "Turn x - xxxxBC" that would raise some eyebrows that a mistake has been made? I'm going to encourage everyone not to read such threads. If it looks suspicious, PM me, and I'll let you know whether if it's a mistake, or if it is public information.

I will inform DaveShack of the incident, and hopefully the game won't be ruined.

Perhaps our foeign minister should issue an apology to Daveshack?

I like the idea, but it dances around the "no communication between teams before contact" rule.

What was the name of the thread? Surely if it was "Turn x - xxxxBC" that would raise some eyebrows that a mistake has been made?

It wouldn't be the first time someone has put something like that in the UN forum. I thought it was going to be something about the game successfully reaching turn 10 or something like that. Next time I will check with you.

The UN forum is a dangerous place.

I hope our team wont make a similar mistake.

I don't think it warrants an appology ... it was posted in an open section ... DaveShack should actually thank our fairplay ...

If you need a diplomat, I was an ambassador in the ISDG for 5 terms *hint* :p

We have not met anyone yet.

Welcome back Emp.Napoleon :salute:

If you need a diplomat, I was an ambassador in the ISDG for 5 terms *hint* :p
chances are we will have elections before we find another civ...