For military decisions....

I'm not sure how many are subscribed to this but here is the first discussion in this thread.....

Since Dunderhead is slated to be a military machine what should the build order be?? My suggestion is warrior, warrior, rax, warrior/archer (if we have WC by then), etc.

Dag also suggested using the newly trained warriors for scouting instead of MP. I'm fine with a 3:2 ratio of scouting vs MP/escorting.

Dag also suggested using the newly trained warriors for scouting instead of MP Not all of them obviously but we should not exeed the minimum MP reqired. I would feel more confident if we saw the MW's coming in the distance than having them on our precious doorstep. If we feel bold enough we can counter some of the happiness problems with popping a settler every now and then insted of using much MP's?

What are the thoughts about building a barracks? I like the idea of rushing veteran GS rather than simply regular. I know it would disrupt production but...

Oh wait, is 'rax' barracks? Oh, you kids with the lingo. Don't mind me, you rush on ahead, I'll just sit here and feed the squirls for awhile.

rax = abbreviation for barracks :)
Enjoy feeding the squirrels. ;)

What are the thoughts about building a barracks? I like the idea of rushing veteran GS rather than simply regular. I know it would disrupt production but...

Oh wait, is 'rax' barracks? Oh, you kids with the lingo. Don't mind me, you rush on ahead, I'll just sit here and feed the squirls for awhile.
Okiedoo, you'll be in charge of the Granny instead :D .

I would like one of warriors to head west. If we have not made contact down south then someone is to our west. Unless they find us first. Tubby's orders makes sense to me.
Booti you crack me up.

Okiedoo, you'll be in charge of the Granny instead :D .Nothing against Booti but Gma stands for grandma Harriet so I think she should be in charge of the granny. :D

Maybe we let him be in charge of ad(ding) libs.

I think Tubby's idea is good. First warrior for MP duty, second for exploring, then a barracks.

Maybe we could build one curragh. It's only 10shields i think and it could help find the neighboring civ.

cheers


Tomasz

Curraphs require Alpha which we don't have yet and also require 15 shields. If we get it by the time City # 3 is founded (9 turns from now) then a couple curraphs would be a supreme idea. But I don't think that is going to happen unless the Greeks (MIA) or Persians (TNT) are on our continent and we meet them soon.

Curraghs would be nice (sigh wistfully), but I think we are going to be land-locked for a bit.

I agree with the sentry/westward scout military scheme for the short term.

Hmmm. Maybe we could name the westward scout Joseph Smith?

check out the west-side... booya...! (or whatever)
and i think Tubby should be in charge of the Tubs (boats) ;)
i can take care of the Soul of idiots (happy faces)

we want rax built in atleast Dunderhead asap, for those pointed sticks (both incoming and outgoing)

Let's not name him Joseph Smith. The guy didn't make it past Illinois. If you want a Morman name which I prefer we didn't do, at least use a real explorer like Brigham Young. How about Lewis or Clark?

Random question......

Since SoZ doesn't require ivory, should we make a pre-build in 3rd or 4th city? It will give us free "gallic swordsmen" (3.2.2).

I think we're the only one who can even consider SoZ at this point. We should discuss our dotmap again. I'd like to have a coastal for when we get alpha.

once upon a time there was :beer:

a strange little man named igor appropriated some of the :beer:

after putting on his beer goggles, Igor went to see the department of geeks and numbers. it was all too technical for igor so he had more :beer: then he went to the naming department and it was all too literate and erudite for him so he had more beer
then Igor came here and heard the chorus sing something about the rax and the pointy stick. Igor was confused, so he had more beer (BTW, Igor doesn't have to work tomorrow). Igor sat on the keg and it got warm. In a heartbeat, stormclouds appeared and told him, "Igor thou have been a good and faithful (if somewhat confused) servant, go forth and find more beer." So Igor forthwith looking for more beer but found instead books. Igor, rendered illiterate by the beer could only make monkey noises of awe at the pretty pictures in the books. However, the books and the beer inspired Igor to dream per chance (or is it per se?) of rock throwing devices that decreased the forces of the evil incarnate opponents. he also dreamt of little tiny sticks with strings to shoot pointy little sticks at the evil incarnate opponents. Having had too much :beer: Igor retired to the dungeon.

BTW-this post was much more amusing without this message:
You have included too many images in your signature or in your previous post. Please go back and correct the problem and then continue again.

Ah, Igor as Chief of Command, beautiful confusion awaits the noble Kissers. I share his enthusiasm for the arty stuff and Archers are fine while waiting on GS's. I would suggest we have a stack of warriors to up when iron is connected 'thou. What we must decide on is wheter we should connect immediatly or wait untli cash is in. We're not stacking a pile o cash now but rather burning the lot so getting iron online direct might be the way to go. Dunderhead + second rax must be pretty productive id that be the case. I guess the second rax be built as close to the core as possible.

FWIW, warrior -> GS upgrade costs 90G each.

Sorry A-K. I didn't mean to drive Igor to drink. but he is funnier that way ;)

@ TR Sorry A-K. I didn't mean to drive Igor to drink. but he is funnier that way
not you, more the BTW, Igor doesn't have to work tomorrow

If my turn comes up before monday, auto skip me.

and i think Tubby should be in charge of the Tubs (boats) ;)
I think the Admiral should be in charge of our navy. I nominate him for Chief of Naval Anarchic Operations
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Civ3_galley.gif
This is the plans for ADM Kutzov's flagship.

Chief of Naval Anarchic Operations


I'll start a thread. :bounce: Our new goals are AEGIS cruisers, nuclear subs and carriers. We can sneak those subs into range of the enemy capitals and raise havok. The marines follow with amphibious invasions and we can control the coasts of the world. Sorry, I'm getting carried away :crazyeye:

BTW - the one resource we must control is hops :)

BTW2 - Igor doesn't have to work for 3 days

BTW3 - Jimmy Johnson had helmet hair (watching ESPN classic - Florida v. Miami in the 80's)

I think we need to get you some sail training first Admiral :D

igor seems a very lucky person, not working all that much ;)
and we DEFINITELY MUST control the world supply of hops.

but maybe start with a tiny babystep and start traing in the pond? maybe a paddle or two, then add a sail? :D

Due to the high lux tax..... I propose holding off the Barracks in Dunderhead until we can churn out some MPs for Ignoramus, Dunderhead & maybe even Simpleton.

We have a few turns before a decision needs to be made. But I thought that we should discuss it.

I think we can accept a few regulars and MP's are indeed needed so, good call Tubs.

I understand why we need to build some MP's, but I'm always confused by the conflicting advice I read about building regulars that I see in the general discussion forums. I'm fine with it, but maybe I'll post something in the "Strategy Forum" (not mentioning this game, of course) to get more info on when it's a good idea and when it's not. I don't want to threadjack here by asking all the broad questions I have on the subject.

No I'd rather try to answer this internally if possible because others might have the same question.

Here is my reasoning.... We will need some MP's until we get a higher form of government. Those MP's are probably not going to get upgraded or see battle. The cost saved by lowering the lux slider will be well worth the cost of disbanding these few guys later.

with that being said. Vets are indeed more valuable than regs making the barracks usually a good bet after 1 or 2 scouts. The problem that I have is that we preliminarily agreed with MIA to supply writing in 15 turns in exchange for a piece of their hide (I mean Masonry & Myst) and if the lux tax has to stay at 30 the whole time, I just don't see that happening.

With veterans you get 1 hitpoint extra for the same shields and they have 1 step less on the ladder to elite-->mgl's. A one time investment (barracks) pays of in the long run. Only reason to build regulars is that you need some units right away and that might be the case here*. Otherwise build rax asap in cities that are assigned to military production.
*as stated by TR in previous post

Thanks to both of you for explaining your reasoning. I almost never build regulars after the 1st 2 or 3 in my SP games and feel almost guilty if I even consider doing so. I wasn't questioning Tubs' reasoning in this case so much as trying to apply it more broadly to other situations. You've helped a lot. :goodjob:

The world is getting much smaller.

What should our military build priorities be?

In a game like this are Peapants and his kin enough for defense? The GS are great, but at 40 sheilds they are the most expensive UU in the game. Spearmen are nice but lack any sort of tactical flexibility.

What should our military build priorities be?

Now that we are getting to where everyone will know everyone, and mapmaking is in spitting distance, as a learner in this game, I'm interested in what everyone's thoughts are.

GS are the next best thing to knights and we now know for a fact that we can build as many as we want, ever. They are expensive, but considering we haven't seen anything remotely close-by, in terms of borders, 2 move is going to be a very very serious asset.

Of course we'll need some kind of defense, but are 2 spears really worth a gallic? are 6 spears worth 3 gallics - talking defense here. Zone defense is less expensive and, to the best of my knowledge, more efficient - given a proper intel. We only need to station a few spears in some key towns and have 8-10 gallics (talking about a much larger empire here of course, over 12 towns) on main roads, ready to jump out and pre-strike attackers. Plus, it'll be easy to swap defense/offense and make the most out of every GS.

who or whom are we planning to attack?

I'm afraid if you attack anyone you'll get dogpiled. If you're near cultural victory you'll get dogpiled. Diplo's impossible, close to space and you're dogpiled, seems histo is the only option :lol: . We've got some good players here, but we can't handle 3 other human teams all against us.

Attacking means dogpiling, unless you make it a 2v1, which probably will turn 2v2 (or, in a misfortunate case for the attackee, 3v1). That's why we have a diplo dpt.

2v2 sounds fun, but not reliable.

That's why we have military headquarters :p

In a game like this are Peapants and his kin enough for defense? The GS are great, but at 40 sheilds they are the most expensive UU in the game. Spearmen are nice but lack any sort of tactical flexibility.Let me see if I have this correct. A sword is 30 shields. It is 3/2/1. A GS is 40 shields and is 3/2/2. I take it you don't think the extra movement point is worth 10 shields. I will take speed any day. Think about getting somewhere twice as fast, think about retreats, think about striking a 9-tile city from outside its boarders. I'll take a GS over an immortal any day. The GS was one of the reasons we asked for the Celts.

I'd also take a GS over a Mountie for the extra defense.

Think about how MIA is treating us right now. It is all because of the GS. They fear the GS. We should build a few and parade them up and down just outside the Greek boarders. Just to instill more fear.

like bugsy said, speed kills.

i used to rely on defensive troops, but have come a way from that.
im all for keeping our army composed of offending,smelly, hairy GSs'.

we have no immediate threat, and with the GS we can keep it up for quite a while more.

The best defense IS a good offense, and I like the GS. My only thought for posting this was to see if we had a schemata for making/placing the units.

I didn't know if we were putting wariors in all cities with clusters of GS for quick reaction. I didn't know if we were putting spearmen in coastal cities. I didn't know what size stacks of GS people were planning on for RDF or offensive action.

I'm not planning on attacking anyone right now, I'm just planning.

I'm for GS. Especially good for multiplayer.

If we land an SoD of 10 near their territory and constantly build it up, they'd start mobilizing for war.

The question may be , should we connect iron asap and build them for 40 shields or should we train cheap warriors and save gold for a mass upping?

We are doing 0% research, and will have the cash, so why not?

I think the research question has to be discussed a bit further before we decide to save that (possibly huge) amount of gold for military rather than research. It will depend on a lot of factors, including wether or not we want to be very agressive in the late AA, and wether or not we want to try and get commercial/scientifical edge over them.

If we are going to save gold for the upgrade, we had better redouble our efforts to get our lux connected. Lux and brawn would be the only thing we could trade for needed techs.

I'm a noob, but playing against humans seems to make the GS rush a dangerous ploy. To get the gold you have to sacrifice the tech, and if your gambit fails, you are in the stone-ages while they are discovering the world is round.

It seems that it could be a viable strategy, we just need more info about the world we are on.

I look forward to the discussion.

I suggest we build 1 warrior in Dunder before the rax. I would hate to lose Ignoramus to barbie and the worker might need protection.
"them" is of course MIA :p

I think we need to plan on not having a lot of cash for upgrades. I think we should hook up the iron as soon as possible and start investing in GS.

Short term, a few more warriors for MP/barb suppression/settler guiding would be good.

Another thing we need to think about in the 0% research process, post republic, is that MIA might feel undermined in our mutual sharing traty if we don't do any research. We could, however, do low research (50-60% of our actually possible output) and hide the SoC with one city that has connected iron and does the odd upgrades to keep our cash floating low.

But that solution isn't as good, on a diplomatically correct front, as building GS's straight up. They cost 90 gold each for an upgrade anyways, so we wouldn't gain THAT much.

upgrades will be horrendously expensive.
im all for hooking the iron and starting a military build up.

regarding unit placements -
border towns to have an MP (warrior or spear)
key points - more troops.
GS piles - every 2 towns and along the front. keep them a couple of tiles from the border so they are not seen.
i think for now 3 GS every few towns would suffice as first reaction troops.

build the GS straight up. what soul said

.
GS piles - every 2 towns and along the front. keep them a couple of tiles from the border so they are not seen.


Would GS be seen if had a veteran Spearman fortified in a town? It may be a good way to get them a little closer to where we would need them.

I agree on building rather than upgrading. 90 gold isn't a piece of cake in AA.

Kickbooti is right, one vet Sperman per stack will hide them well in a city.

If I noticed correctly, it piles up
1- greatest def*HP
2- if equals, greatest %HP (3/4 will go after 3/3)
3- if equals, lowest attack value

But they would see the GS entering the cities. Counting them would have to be done manually and would take some willpower, but if I allow myself to believe the way we have geeked the pointy stuff out here, I can easily imagine they'd do the same.

So I guess we'd have to make it purposefully not threatening, if we put GS at some places in border towns, or make sure they don't have a visual to it when we do.

They won't see them coming into a city if we don't let them. :mischief:

You mean hopefully there'll be a road outside the borders which we can add on to and then attack without being seen?

I mean that if they have a clean line of sight to the city tile, like from a hill or from sea for instance, they can spot the GS *entering* the city when we position him there.

But...we'll be moving them during our turns...and they won't be able to see them...right? :confused:

they see the IBT moves like you would in reg games. The only touchy part is that if they can see the city on the IBT we want to SOD-garrisson it, they'll know we mean business.

If we move a GS SoD to border city the turn before we strike I'm not sure it matters if they see us. Anyway I think the deal says we will give a warning before we end the peace (with MIA that is).

I hate to tell you guys "I told you so" ;) but nobody would back me up when I said waaaaaay back we should be building them from scratch instead of counting on being able to upgrade. Idiots! :D

Anyway, we should focus on getting 10 shields (after corruption) per core city, This would get us 1 GS/4 turns/city. It's going to be challenging to get this up asap so I volunteered for it ;)

I hate to tell you guys "I told you so" but nobody would back me up when I said waaaaaay back we should be building them from scratch instead of counting on being able to upgrade. Idiots! We hate you too!
Anyway, we should focus on getting 10 shields (after corruption) per core city, This would get us 1 GS/4 turns/city. It's going to be challenging to get this up asap so I volunteered for it We love you too!

@ crakie - build the GS straight up

@ crakie -

I know, Sir... I was talking waaaaaay back..... I don't think you were honouring us with your presence yet.

Just so everyone is clear on the warrior's names
name current assignment
Hairy Ignoramus
Grunt Dunderhead
Peapants South exploration
Tommy Boy Jesterton (escorting settler clan)
Ave. Joe west exploration
Igor Wild Rower escort

This is how I see is the best way to handle the new barbs. The southern barb is probably headed to Dunderhead. We need to head him off since the worker N of Dunderhead will be headed to the bg SW of Dunderhead next turn.

The eastern barb is probably headed for our workers. So if we pull the MP out of Ignoramus then we can head him off whichever way he goes.

If we play defensive, we'll probably lose something. If we attack the little buggers, then we can take them out without having to shuffle warriors around a lot.

I would hate to lose the gran at Dunderhead. Wouldn't it be smarter to send our warrior into Dunderhead and fortify since the barb will be attacking across the river?

I was just concerned about the worker that is scheduled to move to the BG SW of Dunderhead next turn.

I guess that that worker (1N of Dunderhead) could move to the bg W of it's current position. then it would be safe and the warrior can return to Dunderhead.

Hairy in Ignoramus does need to move though. Or we will lose that worker (since that is more than likely what the barb in the east is going for)

:bump:

We need a consensus of at least 3 people here before we proceed. Dag & Whomp suggested moving Grunt back to Dunderhead. And I agree with them.

I think that Hairy definately needs to move south to cover our worker that is currently mining. Any other thoughts on this one?

Am I uber-safe if I suggest to change worker in Igno to warrior? Igno will grow next turn so the worker should be out in 5. Then we could have one of the warriors to go clear that camp once and for all....

it's too late to change the build to a warrior. At the beginning of the turn the worker will come forth from the dust.

Maybe the granary in Ignoramus should hold off until after another warrior is built. but we do need workers.....:hmm: decisions decisions.

If we tried attacking the barb by Dunderhead and lost...that would not be good. I'm not sure what the odds are of a reg warrior killing a barb on Emperor level is, but I don't think it's that great.

However, if we fortified him in the city, the barb could just head to our worker to the NE, and we'd be forced to attack across a river, then. What's that NE worker doing, and would it finish before the barb got there?

What's that NE worker doing, and would it finish before the barb got there? Mining, 5 turns.

The Granary in D-head is due in 11 turns and city grows in 5. I'm a bit worried about the lack of military so I set Igno on warrior. That can be changed but if we spit out workers w/o defenders they will be barbie food anyway. After moving Hairy S I realized how dangerous that was but luckily he won the fight. Igno would have been sacked had he lost :eek:.

After moving Hairy S I realized how dangerous that was but luckily he won the fight. Igno would have been sacked had he lost.
I kinda sense a drop of confusion here. Sacking the cities is the second best thing from our point of view that the barbs can do (first would be dying, obviously :-P ). All you stand to lose is the accumulated production or a little gold. Possibly a citizen, I forgot if that could happen. But in general it's not harmful at all, and especially so in this case when we wouldn't have had more than 1 turn's production accumulated and practically no gold. Had we not moved out, it could've chased the workers down or go and pillage improvements.. that's much more dangerous.

Here's what I've found on barbs. I've done a little testing, and it looks like barbs will pillage production first if there are more than 10 shields in the box, then citizens, then gold.

It looks like I have been made a General in the Stupid Decisions thread. I hope that is at least a Marine General. An Army or Air Force General would clash with my background (Navy.)

Has the team considered which cities should be miltary builders?

Millie is worried

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/MTDG44_MilitaryTNT.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/MTDG44_MilitaryMIA.jpg

TNT has few tiles but high pop and a connected iron scource. Looks like they're going for immortals and clearing continent before Nuts can grow strong. How can we take advantage of that? Start settling their continent since they won't grow much?

As I would expect, our military is weak against our warring neighbors and average against our continental peace-loving neighbor.

TNT has few tiles but high pop and a connected iron scource. Looks like they're going for immortals and clearing continent before Nuts can grow strong. How can we take advantage of that? Start settling their continent since they won't grow much? They have shown their warring credo and would like nothing more than for us to try to gain an early foothold. Perhaps once we have settled what we need to settle we can head over there. I would think after 45 turns that war is still in it's infancy and that the tiles they have to traverse makes it even a longer affair. I don't think that war will amount to anything.

What about just one city on each side of the gap? I would like us to have control over that.....please...:cry:

The city on the other side of the gap will get dismantled by Immortals.

'slinger is right. The city over there will be defenseless for a while and not worth having if it changes hands.

Do you really think they would risk starting a two front war with the fastest growing civ just because we settle on neutral territory, even if they realize they can raze that city? They are stoopid, but that would definetly be beyond comprehension.

I've learned to "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS"

or there is another motto... "None of us are dumber than all of us together". Maybe that's TNT's motto with some of their actions :crazyeye:

sorry, I'm trying to digest a lot of info so I may be a little confused :) However, it looks like, based on the dotmap, that the expansion phase is pretty open ended right now, and military is not thought of as too necessary near-term (sorry if this is completely off). 6 warriors for 5 towns at turn 45 or so seems light. Not even an archer? :hmm:

imho, keep building settlers till we get to the FP limit (8 or 10 towns on a tiny map, iirc), then switch the settler pump to a worker pump. spam workers like crazy, getting the 2nd worker pump w/ granary up and running, build-up the military towns to 6, 8 10, or 14spt after corruption (going for the lowest corruption towns 1st) for GS builds. After about 20-25 workers, switch the settler pump back on. Excess workers can then be joined into towns to get the pop up for production, with the idea of maintaining ~20 workers, exact number isn't important, as long as we have the military factories setup and running as well as enough workers to do all the other stuff they need to do.

regarding the dotmap: Celts are REL and AGR. Corruption on a tiny map can be a real killer, especially without the COM trait. I would recommend that the settlers that secure the iron be the furthest out of the initial settler build, then fill in closer or at the same distances. Watch out for that town just NE of the capitol, it may mess up the rank corruption for the other towns. Maybe build the FP up towards the iron or are there plans to move the palace to a more central location?

sorry if this is completely off, as it's very hard to get a complete picture in a few hours of review (yeah, me and my big fingers :lol: ). I also apologize if I've repeated or contridicted plans already in the works :)

put a city accross the channel. If immortals approach we give it away or disband

Gram the map is small not tiny but the point is well taken and I garee.

whoops, haha. probably got a lot of other crap wrong, too :)

Well there is a lot of discussion on whether Dunderhead should finish the gran or rax. We'd have two pumps with the gran. I still lean towards military but that's because I'm a little paranoid. It can still be changed.

the granary will make for a lot of cities that can just simply go rax-spear-gallic³²³³² and BAM, no more military problems :whipped:

But with Gram's plan we will reach the FP limit soon enough with only one granny. If I understand him correctly we should then focus on improving the core and build military for some time, then start settling again....

But with Gram's plan we will reach the FP limit soon enough with only one granny. If I understand him correctly we should then focus on improving the core and build military for some time, then start settling again....
that's the idea. we need to shut off the settler valve for a bit and concentrate on the core. don't go wild on the settlers again till the core is well established. if the Persians learn MM, we need to be ready for a landing.

edit: plus, if we're strong vs our neighbors, maybe we get more favorable deals :mischief:

edit2: and the granary in Dunderhead should fit it with the "improve the core" scheme, that is, if everyone agrees with the proposal.

Welcome aboard G-man!

IF YOU HAVE AN IQ ABOVE SEA LEVEL, YOU CAN SAFELY SCROLL PAST THIS.......not you Captain.
and the granary in Dunderhead should fit it with the "improve the core" scheme, that is, if everyone agrees with the proposal. Is that "fit it" or "fit in"? Maybe it makes no diff. but I'm not 100% on the nuances in english so just to make sure. The granny can still be switched to a rax, which was our initial plan. With a granny in D-head we'll have 1.5 4-turners and that seems too much to fit in your plan. We are doing a granny in Ignoramus too. Can someone who actually knows math do the figures on this?
All this Blind Idiot Rat wanna say is he would like to have some cold steel to offer if the (Dyna)Mites comes uninvited to us.

All this Blind Idiot Rat wanna say is he would like to have some cold steel to offer if the (Dyna)Mites comes uninvited to us.
I don't know exactly what maths you're requesting here, but didn't you just yesterday point out that it'd be pretty stupid for them to start a two front war? :)

I don't really see much of a reason to be concerned about an overseas invasion. They are half an eternity away from getting MM (they don't even have writing yet), and then they'd need some time to build a fleet. It even takes 10 turns for them to travel to our core. I'd start planning to set up a net of early scouts now, and start worrying about military when someone actually has MM.

Meanwhile we have spots for at least some 20 cities on the currently visible area north of the jungle, quite likely another 10 in the darkness. That's over 100 turns with a single 4-turner. :)

I don't know exactly what maths you're requesting here, but didn't you just yesterday point out that it'd be pretty stupid for them to start a two front war? Yup, I did indeed, and I still think it would but what I think isn't always the same as how things turn out:lol: .
I would like to go on with our mass-settling idea, yes, but I'm also very concerned (right or wrong) about our weak military. If someone as experienced as Gram makes a point about it, and I am concerned, I'm inclined to take that seriously. You have a good point of course in TNT not being able to do any harm for some time.

we are expanding against humans, not ai's. if someone sees us up to 20 cities, but weak militarily, then will make the conclusion that they must strike us immediately or they will lose the game.

besides, why is it necessary to have 20 cities so early? most of them will be small and hard to defend. we'd be better off with 10 medium to large cities, improved land, and a decent military before expanding to 20 cities. With the Celts and this setup, that should occur very quickly.

As I said before, I may be wrong. Nothings for sure in these games. However, I have had situations where I expanded too fast, only to be forced to abandon towns because the opponent dropped a single unit next to an open or weakly defended city. I just think it can be avoided if we expand intelligently, instead of quickly. Also, I did not realize that the worker pump in Ignoramous (that's me :) ) was already up. So, the granary in Dunderhead may be overkill, but it may also allow us to build improvements in the capitol instead of workers and settlers.

Sorry, can't finish my thought, have to go to a meeting.

Dunderhead is 8 turns away from it's granary and Ignoramus is 27 turns from it's granary.

Bearing what Gray Ham has said, I think that it might be a little longer before we need the extra cities that 1.5 settler pumps can put out.

If we switch Dunderhead to a barracks, it'll be done in 4 turns. Dunderhead right now is generating 5 shields per turn (warrior every 2 turns). With the min run on Republic, we could save up some cash for some upgrades. With all of those warriors running around the fog can be burned off and escorts & lookouts aplenty

Trying to make my concern a bit clearer, TNT is not the biggest threat...yet. There will come a day, sooner or later, when MIA realize they either end the co-op or they'll have no way of winning. They will certainly be approached by others on that matter. If MIA are allright with being cornered with 30% of our cont. area then I see no problem with the Farming Gambit, thing is I'm not sure they will when the lightbulb finally goes on....vote on this?

Since we are undermanned with workers and military I vote to make one of the cities 100% worker pump and the other a military pump . As Gram said they last thing we need is to over expand and not be able to cover those cities. We've discussed how difficult it would be for TNT or Donut if they take the whole continent and why it's good to have a continental neighbor for the same reason. A min run on republic benefits us as well for the GS upgrades.

If MIA are allright with being cornered with 30% of our cont. area then I see no problem with the Farming Gambit, thing is I'm not sure they will when the lightbulb finally goes on....vote on this? A farmers gambit works to a point, but if we take 70% of the land and can't defend it, then it's worthless. MIA will figure it out, and are probably already discussing our expansion internally.

We will be the 1st civ to double-digit cities, so there will be a period were they need to catch-up to us. While they try to expand as fast as they can, we improve our core. Then, once they catch up in size, we begin expanding again. It'll be rough, psycologically, for the other teams to see that.

I'm still not sure that Dunderdam can't be a worker pump. I think the sooner we have a worker pump online, the better it will be for the other cities and the faster we will have a strong military. edit: actually, thinking some more, and seeing the shape that Ignoramous is in, I'd recommend that Dunderdam becomes a worker pump now and the workers go to Ignoramous to make it our 1st military city. 3 mined bg's, a forest, and an irrigated plane will get that city up to 10spt before corruption at size 5 (probably 8spt after corruption). Pretty good and can be done quickly if Dunderdam is spitting out workers

Dunderhead can be a worker pump. But with the need for military I thought that we might want to go to the initial initial plan of making it a military pump. It has 4 bgs and seems to be the best place for squirting out military.

A worker pump would be nice but we'll have to get this granary built (8 turns) then getting workers out. Later we'll need some military so we'll have to build a rax too. I'd prefer to leave it as one or the other. My vote is to make it a military pump and just get workers out of the other cities.

ok, a good case can be made either way, so I'm fine with whatever is decided :)

There is a discussion about this in the Dept. of MM. Whatever is decided will be put in the Dept. of Stupid Decisions for the world to see. It looks like Dunderhead might be a worker pump and everything else be a military pump

I have a hypothetical.

We can gift units to other teams right?

What happens to them? Do they go to the teams capitol like traded workers? Do they stay where we put them?

If they stay put, it would be fun to sell the Donughts some GS that have been offloaded on the other continent.

Just thinking ahead and curious.

you can only gift workers. other units are not tradable. worker must be in the capitol, and the civ must have a city on the same landmass in order to trade them.

Do we have a basic military plan? GS and kill MIA's, or do we need their help in tech parity?

IMO we should become sworn (temporarily ;) ) allies and invade TNT's continent.

@Own
Your plan is our plan ;)

Sounds good. But with what form of boatie? Galley?

Nothing is written in stone about the whacking of TNT. I guess it will be when the military dudes say GO. Depends partially on how the current war turns out of course. It could a number of attacks or one Mama Hit. We'll see. It may not even be TNT that is the target when it's time to move. For now we're all about growing BIG!

Edit: For turn 47 MAd says:
There's barbies near Effing
Weak vs. Nuts, weak vs. TNT, average vs. MIA

I thought we had a deal with our Greek buddies they we wouldn't approach their boarders and we won't approach their. They have an elite warrior very close. Are they looking to have us send Barbslinger on a rampage through their lands?

I think that they cleared out the barb camp up there. no biggie. It would be fun if they bit the hands that feed them now :devil:

I think we should wait to invade the other continent. Yes, we have good firepower in GS, but they have immortals and MW's. Right now I think it would be best to road/military consolidate our belongings, keep expanding thereafter and possibly launch a caravel/knight invasion later on.

I think we have too nice of an expansion position to let it go for military considerations this early.

B-e-F - I concur with your accessment. We do need to start building a military though, if only as a deterent.

I think this is a good time to heed the advice of Speak softly and carry a big stick. Unfortunately at the moment we do not have a stick at all.

I concur with the Teddy Roosevelt, Bugsy and BeF. Except isn't it a big SOD in our case? Anyhow, I wouldn't mind throwing a couple warriors onto the other continent to explore a bit.

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind throwing a couple warriors onto the other continent to explore a bit. Of course, we'll send a few UN observers lurking.

I wouldn't mind throwing a couple warriors onto the other continent to explore a bit.

Let's wait for Horseback riding and send some horsemen. Speed is life. Plus seeing a few horsies would cause TNT to have a mass parastalsis in their pants.

horses are a waste of shields right now.

GS, will be 2 movement too. a couple of warriors dropped off at different locations could make relatively quick work of the scouting job

Gareed. We don't really need horses till knights and they're an odd build at 70 shields.

We also don't want GS on the other continent until we are in a government. The last thing we want is to kick off a GA because someone attacks them while we are researching republic.

Aside from the GS we hand build with barracks, should we use some of the excess cash we will be generating every 6 or so turns for upgrading some reg. warriors to Gallic swords? They could go barb hunting popping everthing in sight and there's a possibility of some nice promotions there. The barbs horses will be online I'd suspect in less than 15 turns.

also, we are not fat enough to waste too many shields. 10 or 20 for 2 warriors is probably it, the rest needs to go into infra or units. Personally, I don't see much point in scouting right now as our core isn't even setup properly.

the next worker will start roading towards the iron. The worker near ignoramus is getting ready to chop the forests over there for a rax.

After the iron is hooked up upgrades won't be a big deal at all.

Sir Bugsy, thanks for the recomendation. They could attack now and I know I would win this. This is a romp. The pyramids makes it a beating because I think if this game contnues it gets worse for them. Once we have 9 cities up I would like GS built. 20 of hose bad boys ultral-neutlalizes TNT and then we win by whatever means dictate.


PS - Watch for ships on the coast. I said place a sentinel on the mountain. If they drop 2 immortals next to our capital, it hurts. We HAVE to have recon on ships passing that way. This is PBM. Place a warrior.

Do we want to connect the iron asap or postpone a while to keep building warriors for upgrading? Right now we aren't generating alot of cash but once we cranked out a few warriors and changed to republic that will change.

IIRC the consensus was to build them straight up due to high upgrade cost.

I know, but things do not have to be black-and-white... we can upgrade a few and build a few. It will take us quite a while (read: many worker turns) before we build those suckers at a decent rate.

right now we have 6 warriors. I think that that is about the right amount to upgrade. At the end of our min Republic run, we'll have ~ 700G and we'll need 540 G. We could build a couple more warriors in the time that we are connecting the iron.

btw, we'll have two workers (new one near Jesterton and the one that just finished near Dunderhead) that have just started working on the iron road this past turn. The one near Jesterton (named Sir Bugsy) is roading 1 SE of Jesterton and will climb the hill and road it next. The one coming from Dunderhead will start roading from the existing road network to that area. That worker can also stay over there or even start roading to the south.

Alrighty, you convinced me. We should try to get a few promotions before upgrading the regs though.

They would stand a better chance against barbs as a 3.2 GS than a 1.1 warrior. specially since horses are going to be running around in ~ 4-6 turns. They really don't need promotions before being upgraded IMO.

Ack! I am caught! I rarely play with barbs on :)

I submit to your idiot wisdom, tubby:goodjob:

Thought I might re-open this question: Should we save one warrior to send with galley to observe the goings overseas?

why not send a GS? We'll be pumping them out of two cities soon. Ignoramus has one due in a couple of turns. SKWTD has a ton of forests to chop around it to get a few out.

@Tubby
So we don't get attacked in despot and trigger GA, but if we're in rep by then...

Our GS can run away from an impending battle...

Well, Daghie has a point. TNT is just about as nasty as they get. I can imagine them attacking a GS just to trigger our GA.

I think as soon as we get a galley we should ship over several warriors for some recon.

How soon to MM?

MIA will have MM any turn now.

do we have horses? maybe a chariot would be faster for recon?

horses were hooked up just recently

Chariots can't enter jungles, though. And if they're continent really is close to ours...there will be a LOT of jungle.

Do we have HBR yet? If so, send a horseman.

We're no longer the weakest. We're average to MIA...WooOooT. Worth noting is that a Barbie Horseman rode up to Bootsy W of Polecat. We should have the Igno GS walk down there and whack him asap.

Gareed Daghie. These are the kind of promotions we need.

Behold fellow Celts, our first victorious Swordsman
That's Bootsy in the background, working and whistling, being a cool dude.

Without a scratch! Can you say elite? :smug:

there is a barb camp over there that we need to bust up for some cash

Yes, that's the Allemanni tribe that our MAd keeps telling us about. Fe said MIA too is having trouble with Barbs. With another GS as back up I agree we should scout the area and go Barbie hunting. Don't know if this that sort of game where you can face a barb horse stack of 15...?

yes it is so those barb camps need to be gone by the time ANYONE is in the MA.

Once a stack shows up we need to burn that money quick. also the workers need to be guarded better. Right now a stack of 4 barb horses could cripple us beyond recongition by wiping our workers off the map!!!

Now the threat from Alemannis is no more. One camp left I think and that's near EWR.

Ok, however cuddly I seem to be with MIA, I think they should be our main/first target. Question is how and when to hit. Talking to fe I get the impression that he's delighted at the possibility of KISS going along with our initial plan on an invasion of battle island, I also sense that MIA will not send much military on such a mission and we can only guess why :lol: . I think it would be spiffing if we could convince MIA that such a campaign is actually decided upon by us. We can do so by fishing for different kinds of support from them, here we can be creative. The whole pupous of that would be to lure them into building infra instead of military because it looks like they are aiming at making the most of their sci trait and leave us behind in middle MA. they want education for universities and then...zooom...gone. I'd say we hit them just before they get to build those Univ's. If we can be convincing enough we might even be able to park outside their door with a massive (Nut-invation, heh)-force and then strike from within. If we get to do the military MA techs and hit before we trade them to MIA they will have no chance. It will mean we have to delay the onslaught of the GS's a bit and that's bad, but in the end I think we will profit. Such a war could be over very quickly and we'd be heading straight to Military tradition boosted by a golden age. If we don't trade rep overseas I cannot see Nuts or TNT being a threat techwise especially if they keep fighting for a while. I think a dog pile comprised of Nuts and TNT would be the weakest one anyway.

Ok, however cuddly I seem to be with MIA....You have been questionable at times
....I think they should be our main/first targetAtta boy :thumbsup:

You have been questionable at times :lol: , well...the point in being cuddly is to get close enough to give them a really nice hug...and I mean a Big One ;) . If they start getting suspicious we will need a lot more firepower to whack 'em.

I think someone in military dept should PM Peter Grimes about this. It could be seen as leading them to believe we wanna co-op
Greetings, neighbors!

I write this in hopes of starting a dialogue concerning KISSMIA's advancement into a new Age. Though it will be an exciting time for all of us, as Defense Minister I am troubled by the prospect of a Barbarian Uprising. Working together, we will be able to quash any signs of rebellion quickly.

I have put together a map (which I am not permitted to share, unfortunately) outlining the areas that are currently not being viewed by KISS or MIA towns. These areas must be patrolled by units prior to advancing. I am still in the process of working out how many units we will be able to devote to Operation Xray Vision.

I think it will be best if we each agree to police certain areas of the fog, making sure there are no existing camps, and then remaining vigilant in those districts until after the switch to the New Age.

Is there a preferred Idiot to address these concerns?

Your Friend and Neighbor,
Peter Grimes

They probably want us to get our military spread all about as to lessen the chance of an strike against them. I think we should respond that we saw the uprisings coming and are defensively prepared. We can't help it that idiots are more prepared than the scientific genius' over there.

Sounds like genius, although telling them that we are prepared might press them to build more hops. IMO the barbs are of very little concern because we indeed are prepared enough for an emperor barb uprising, if it's only a matter of increasing lux to pull MP's. So the real concern becomes: what would be the best way to make them build as little military as possible? Full co-operation?

Sounds like genius, although telling them that we are prepared might press them to build more hops. IMO the barbs are of very little concern because we indeed are prepared enough for an emperor barb uprising, if it's only a matter of increasing lux to pull MP's. So the real concern becomes: what would be the best way to make them build as little military as possible? Full co-operation? That was my thought. Co-op with very little commitments to ease their worried minds. Maybe we could assign one warrior to that.

I haven't downloaded a save in a long time, so I don't know the details of all the 'blackout' areas, but maybe we should respond eagerly and favorably to their request.

I WANT them to grow accostomed to large groups of GS wandering around the jungle border.

We could say something like...

"Dear MIA:
As an agrarian society we are deeply concerned about planning and order which lead to prosperity. We will immediatly dispatch our brave and noble military to secure the peace of our farms and the well-being of our children.

This threat will not be allowed to stand.

Sincerely,
KISS"

Something like that is vauge yet forceful, so when they see GS running around en-mass we can say that they are barb-hunting.

We'll justmake sure they end their expidition in a position to attack on D-Day.

But this request may be a God-send as a cover for our troop movements.

I like it Booti. It will be nice to get our GS' further south with less concern to why there in a particular location.

I would like them to believe a stack of 5 GS's is barb-hunting, but I don't think they will. Nice thought though and I maintain we respond quickly and friendly. Maybe it would be better to hide the number of GS's we have until D-Day, instead of putting them on display?

I wouln't propose laying out ALL of our GS, but a couple of stacks of 2-3 clearing out the black with 'target tiles' near the border that the war-mongers identify for launching points on D-Day might be possible. We could just 'wander' toward those points and be ready for action.

If nothing else, having these singleton or small stacks near the border could make for pilaging parties when the balloon goes up.

If they get suspicious, I would just say that there are some 'inexperienced multi-team players' (like me) heading the barb hunt for experience sake.

Pawn it off as over enthusiasim.

Pawn it off as over enthusiasim. No suggestions should be pawned off, especially not enthustiastic ones. My note was just what this equally inexperienced MTDG-player thought.

No suggestions should be pawned off, especially not enthustiastic ones. My note was just what this equally inexperienced MTDG-player thought.


Sorry Dag, I wasn't taking offense to your comment. I didn't think that you were saying that.

I meant that if MIA gets worried about the number of GS we send on our 'barb-hunting,' you tell THEM that there are simply over-enthusiasitc players on our team. Use over-enthusiasm as a diplomatic foil.

I didn't think you were giving short-shrif to my idea (no reasonable person would ever do that to MY ideas :D ); I just didn't express myself clearly.

They aren't so stupid to think that stack of 5 GS's is there only for barb-hunting, because 1-2 units are enough to kill few consctipt warriors ;)

They aren't so stupid indeed, but think about this opportunity:
We send a GS forward, it spots their scouts, ensures the 15 other GS's behind him are unseen, and we gain terrain like that. If it is possible to time this, it'd be great.
Also, I think I qualify as "the noob" in everyone's mind, after all the bugs with turn 72, so I'd probably be credible for the over-playing the barbs.

I didn't think you were giving short-shrif to my idea (no reasonable person would ever do that to MY ideas ); I just didn't express myself clearly.
A clear case of not understanding all the nuances of english, my bad. Case closed LOL

A clear case of not understanding all the nuances of english, my bad. Case closed LOL

Show off :lol: I don't understand any language OTHER than English, let alone nuances.

Remember:
You call someone who speaks three languages tri-lingual.
You call someone who speaks two language bi-lingual.
You call someone who speaks one language American.

Wait a minute! If we are going to be killing 10-20 count stacks of barb horses don't we need a large stack of GS?

slinger, I think that the idea was to rid ourselves of the the barb camps BEFORE the MA strikes. After the barb horses arrive, we need to hide our workers and let our cities absorb all of the attacks...IMO

slinger, I think that the idea was to rid ourselves of the the barb camps BEFORE the MA strikes. After the barb horses arrive, we need to hide our workers and let our cities absorb all of the attacks...IMO Sorry Tubs, I was refeerring to the prior entries speaking of how do we convince MIA that our large stacks are 'merely' barb hunting. We explain that the large stacks are due to the barb large stacks. Of course, we don't have to move them in SOD's. Packs of 3 spaced 3-4 tiles across moving towards MIA will suffice.

"Dear MIA:
As an agrarian society we are deeply concerned about planning and order which lead to prosperity. We will immediatly dispatch our brave and noble military to secure the peace of our farms and the well-being of our children.
I found it amusing how the emphasis could change the interpretation. :p

Harriet, have you SEEN thier kids? I 'aint protecting them...;)

Harriet, have you SEEN thier kids? I 'aint protecting them...;)
Um, come to think of it, I've never seen any kids in this game. :hmm:

It's a vauge idea right now, so I put it in General Military, but if we do send out stacks of 3-4 GS to 'barb-hunt,' I think that MIA's recent settling could help us.

If we 'happened' to have these stacks on the red dots on D-Day, we could take out Farga, Flaxon, Chuck Norris and Woodridge within a turn or two of each other.

If we put singletons or pairs somewhere around the yellow dots, we would have scouts/pillagers in decent position for flexibility.

And after our initial strike, I know that they would build Hops like crazy, but we could consilidate and march the SoD toward Gorin or Look Here as the situation dictates.

I know their second tier cities are not stratigically important, but a well coordinated, well executed first strike would be demoralizing for them and fun for us.

We could even justify this attack with the 'earth friendly' slogoan "Save the Rain Forest (for us)!"

Gen. Kick von Booti

PS - thanks everyone for the military tutorial. I feel like LBJ, I'm ready to pick my targets now...

Please take a look at the map and ask yourselves: What could we accomplish if we were free to wander with any troops all along the MIA borders? I have just talked with fe (see Diplo for MIA) and installed the idea of a combination of barb-hunting and sending Celt troops all the way down to Itacha on their SE flank. He was very positive it seemd. What they want is a more detailed plan on how we plan to attack Nutters using the close gap at Itacha. I think it's appropriate some well know warmonger make up such a plan and send it to them. Main goal is, of course, to have a Go on placing our troops in a fashion that facilitates a suprise attack on MIA.
I won't be too optimistic about this (live and learn), but it sounded like they will not include Poly in the rep. deal. That would mean we are soon free to attack them at will (no notice).

I won't be too optimistic about this (live and learn), but it sounded like they will not include Poly in the rep. deal. That would mean we are soon free to attack them at will (no notice).
If they send the techs over without Poly, we should request an extension immediately. We need to confirm in writing (whether IM chat, PM, or email) that they INTENDED to not send Poly. Once that is in our hands, our little warrior on the mountaintop is free to take that worker and (ahem) have his way with him.


Oh how great that would be if fe has talked them out of sending us Poly

Oh how great that would be if fe has talked them out of sending us Poly

I hear the war drums beating!

Get ready Slinger! You're turn to step up.

Time to pull up the boots and take out the swords!

... and thrust a knife in the back :devil:

CHARGE!!!!!!! http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/mobrun.gif

What I wonder is where MIA's third scource of iron is. We can see two in their eastern territory, both are ATM reachable in 1 turn for GS's wandering around chasing Barbs or heading towards Ithaca "waiting for Galleys to pic them up and ship them to Doughnutia". If we locate the third one we might be able to prevent them from building swords.

Out of curiosity; can someone post a link to the treaty, or a quote from the treaty the part that you think (hope) will be broken by MIA ??

Treaty (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3478248&postcount=36)

The part that will be broken (as confirmed by both admins) is item #6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status
This was written with the intention of getting the Republic slingshot, but still holds.

Ah, thanks Tubby.

This is why I hate Human-Human Diplomacy in PBEM's :sad:
You can read #6 as:

A: "Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, both teams should have the exact same techs." (quoted from Ginger_Ale),

but equally correct is:

B: "Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, each team gives the other team a (symbolic) gift of at least 1 tech.".

Whichever A or B is the way it should be interpreted is not my problem, but KISS' and MIA's.

item #6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status

Ah, thanks Tubby.

This is why I hate Human-Human Diplomacy in PBEM's :sad:
You can read #6 as
A: "Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, both teams should have the exact same techs." (quoted from Ginger_Ale),

but equally correct is:
B: "Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, each team gives the other team a (symbolic) gift of at least 1 tech.".

Whichever A or B is the way it should be interpreted is not my problem, but KISS' and MIA's.

Rik--Here is the PM from Ginger Ale responding to RegentMan's interpretation of the treaty. My opinion (I've CCed Ginger_Ale):

Number six states that after writing and the republic are discovered, both teams share techs. So if M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. don't start giving each other known techs after the republic has been discovered, then I believe it has been broken.
The way I read this: KISS and MIA must share all known techs between them once Republic is known (as Writing will already be known), at that instant. It doesn't relate to future tech discoveries. Once Republic is known by MIA or KISS, both teams should have the exact same techs. I think that is what RM was saying.

Number seven states that M.I.A. and K.I.S.S. are at peace indefinately. If needed, either team can cancel this peace ten turns after the discovery of the republic. However, they must give a ten turn warning before doing so. So if the republic is discovered on turn 85:
*M.I.A.'s at peace with K.I.S.S. until turn 85.
*M.I.A. cannot announce a cancellation of the peace until turn 95.
*M.I.A. must wait ten turns after they announce a cancellation of the peace.
Right. The earliest peace can be 'officially' cancelled will be 20 turns after the discovery of the Republic. Before war is declared, there must be a notice 10 turns beforehand. Therefore, it's basically what RM said. ;)

Nitpick: Technically, there is no in-game technology "republic." Thus, one could interpret the discovery of republic as a nation entering that government, or that since one can't discover the republic, neither nation must share techs and must stay at peace forever. ;)
Yeah yeah yeah. :p Good luck, let us know if you need any more clarifications. I would forward a copy of this to MIA too.

I hope this helps. :)

Ginger Ale and RegentMan,
Would it be possible to disseminate this agreement? We are all for binding to any agreement but need your interpretation of this contract. Our view is they have broken the agreement if they do not send all techs upon discovery of republic (6ish turns).
Here's the transcript from the pic's that are the actual agreement. I copied them word-for-word. IMO, if they break #6 by not giving us everything then they break the treaty. No admins needed.

But what we do need clarification on is the bit about what #7 means. It's in writing and intent is not an issue. We need an interpretation of the actual wording by an independent party.

1. VOID

2. MIA and KISS land units stay outside of each other's actual borders, during peace.

3. MIA and KISS sea units don't stay on the same tile in each other's territory for 2 consecutive turns, during the peace

4. MIA and KISS will offer each other "Most Favoured Nation status". Most Favoured Nation simply means that we will offer what we learn at the monoploy beaker cost less the Emperor trade rate discount of 20% if, and only if, MIA will reciprocate. Other nations will pay monopoly beaker cost. No shared research, no sweet heart deals, just cold number crunching.

4a. Deals with other nations which go beyond simple technology trade at the monopoly beaker cost for, must be agreed to by the other party

5. KISS will get Writing while MIA gets Masonry and Mysticism. As soon as KISS gets Writing, the team with the best research capability starts on Code of Laws, while the other team starts on Philosophy. Code of Laws will be discovered first and given to the other party before Philosophy is discovered, so that Republic comes as a free tech.

6. Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status.

7. MIA and KISS are at peace. Since both of us can't really know what new developments will be in the future, our peace deal is basically unlimited, and can only be terminated at least ten turns beforehand. This shall not be done, before at least 10 turns have passed after the discovery of Republic.

8. On first contact with an unknown team, either KISS or MIA will share, automatically when their game save is sent, this fact with their continental neighbor in written form.

Techs are shared between both teams when Writing and Republic are discovered. We believe this balances out under "Most Favoured Nation" status

Right - when Republic is discovered, techs are shared. This means when Republic is discovered, if Polytheism is known to one team, the other shall receive it. As I've said, the turn after one team discovers Republic, both teams should have the exact same techs. The earliest war can come is 20 turns from the completed research of Republic.

The question here seems to be whether or not MIA should send KISS Poly.

BTW: You can copy and paste that response and send it to MIA if you want. Let them know they can contact me too.

edit: Crosspost with Whomp.

While reading some other posts - are there any other deals/agreements between KISS-MIA that I should know of?

The above treaty was our last one for the foreseeable future. there was one early on, but that was very limited to a tech trade.

I think we have (almost) located the barb camp on the W coast. Our brave warrior was killed at the red spot and the horse came from up N. The pic is old so pay less attention to it. I only added for clarity about location.

The camp is 1 S of the wines. The tile with the wines is visible as is the tile to the SE of the wines.

So the tile that Dag's arrow starts on is where the camp is.

There is a GS in Cyprus Creek that can go and assist on this camp if the warrior can't do it.

Here's the situation at the barb camp. GS Tommy Boy will reach Weezer the next turn. On the IBT, the barbs didn't attack so next turn Tommy can join Weezer (who will fortifie) and then they move up next to the camp. The following turn they can hit together so in 3 it could be ours. I don't think MIA will hit with 1 warrior for as long as there is 2 units in the camp :crazyeye: .

not with us next to it. I would have rathered that warrior stay next to it to keep MIA honest.

The reason why they didn't hit it was to let us knock one of them off then they get the 25 G

Make sure while hitting the camp we don't leave only one barb remaining. Wait a minute, MIA plays before us so we can leave only one because the camp will spawn another barb on the IT. We should be griping to MIA that they are not attacking the camp.

The camp won't necessarily spawn a barb on the IBT, I don't know the odds but it's not 100%. We're better off waiting.

1. If we want Nuts as allies, but still want to control the sea traffic, I suggest we start focusing on some naval units.
2. I know I've mentioned this before and maybe it was so stupid that it didn't earn any response, but I'll give it another go. When we attack MIA they will cuddle up under a load of Hoppies, right? How about leaving the Hoppies be and just pillage for a while. If we can whack a MIA warrior we get GA, but they don't, then we can use that to squirt GS's and keep pillageing. When it's time to actually attack we will surely trigger their GA at some point, but they will get it with a lot of un-improved tiles meaning they will get less out of it than we. On the whole we should gain more than them...I think. That would take a lot of patience for, say, 15 turns but when the hammer falls we will have plenty of units and MIA will have a not so steep production curve due to their GA.

1. If we want Nuts as allies, but still want to control the sea traffic, I suggest we start focusing on some naval units.
2. I know I've mentioned this before and maybe it was so stupid that it didn't earn any response, but I'll give it another go. When we attack MIA they will cuddle up under a load of Hoppies, right? How about leaving the Hoppies be and just pillage for a while. If we can whack a MIA warrior we get GA, but they don't, then we can use that to squirt GS's and keep pillageing. When it's time to actually attack we will surely trigger their GA at some point, but they will get it with a lot of un-improved tiles meaning they will get less out of it than we. On the whole we should gain more than them...I think. That would take a lot of patience for, say, 15 turns but when the hammer falls we will have plenty of units and MIA will have a not so steep production curve due to their GA.

Both of these notions have much merit. We have but the two boats in the water now, hardly enough to control the sea lane between the continents.

The pillaging idea is also pretty sound as we are going to need the GA production to get enough troops to finish the job, yet we don't want to trigger theirs too early. Cutting their productivity will be a huge advantage and will make good use of the GS's speed.

ad 1) Boats would be nice, but I don't like to sacrifice GS production for it right now. Perhaps a semi-corrupt town or two, and we cash rush them?

ad 2) Yes, I suggested something to that effect as well. I think it could be quite effective in overcoming the cheap hoplite vs expensive-but-fast GS problem.

I like the pillaging idea.

If we do that, remember that two can play at that game and horses are just as effective as the much more expensive GS.

I would recomend a 'minimalist' approach in the amount of troops we send south, just enough to do the pilaging and grab some workers. Since a pilaging strategy presumes we wait for a larger build up, I recomend that we station the rest of our GS in blocking positions to keep MIA from pilaging us and/or respond to amphibious invasion from the Battle Isle.

I'd do this until we can gather the size SoD that the warmongers recomend, THEN roll south.

I think the 'every other' scheme of military deployment is the way to go; one unit for home defense for every unit we send to TNT. Whatever the outcome of this skirmish wtih TNT, MIA will be the main event and having the troops to make it fun will be important.

I am thinking that a road running horozontal to the 'Green Line' might be wise. Put a few watchtowers up, per Bugsy, but it would seem to allow us to respond rapidly to any MIA incursions. Also, it would allow us to quickly get any strike forces into position when the balloon does go up.

how bout this:
we get a medium sized, enough to put out some lights, but not close to our real might (say 1/4-1/3 of our attack force) to use as a pillaging force.
horses and GS's would be nice.
that would keep the bogies busy on thier land, responding, in force, to these troops.
admittedly, these troops would probably become the Judean Peoples Front, but wait a bit...

the other 2/3 rds of our troop build up will move against our strategic aims, and not nessesarily deep into enemy territory.
this we would guard more, and make it more painful to counter.

so basically im proposing a 2 prong attack.
a large enough decoy to draw the bogies to defend where we dont really want to be (and pick up some intel enroute),
and a main thrust to take and keep those places we do want.

if we decide to have the smaller force considered as suicide squads, a 1/4 would do, with a mix of cheap horses and big burly men in tights.

or we could go for option 2 - 1 huge SoD.
which would lose us the speed bonous, unless its all GSs and ponies.

and regarding the HOME DEFENCE grid, i think that a 1 in 2 is adequate.
1 defender per 2 attackers.
we can block any traffic, atleast till some serious reinforcements arrive, with a weaker force,
especially considering we have a steady stream of fresh troops coming on-line.

the coastal road is a GREAT IDEA.

Wow - you guys don't ask much of your poor ol' turnplayer, do you? :rolleyes: :p

I don't think splitting our invasion force is a good idea. Figurig 1/4=>1/3 of our troops is 4=>5 units. That leaves 3=>4 units as the main invasion force. We just don't have that many troops yet. Remember that TNT is "weak to us." That means they have fewer than 16 units. They can't bring all their units to bear on us without opening up their other cities to invasion. We can use our speed and their roads to quickly hurt them.

Look what happens if they abandon Furball. We race down their roads to their next city.

Look what happens if they abandon Furball. We race down their roads to their next city.Exactly. Their best tactical option is their worst strategic one. If they abandon Furball ...we'll have 8 Gallic Swords standing on a road in neutral territory.

@Bugs: that "next city"... is their capitol. If they abandon Furball, I will torch that sucker and they will have no hope of getting back into this game.

That is why the 25 turn war strategy makes so much sense.

I just had a thought. How long would it take or MIA to get a settler into the area NNE of Furball?

If MIA was smart they would start settling those empty spaces.

That is why the 25 turn war strategy makes so much sense.

I just had a thought. How long would it take or MIA to get a settler into the area NNE of Furball?

If MIA was smart they would start settling those empty spaces.
thats assuming they are intellectually inclined :crazyeye:
can we send some dude with a hat that way?
(still need to see the current save)

and i stand corrected.:worship:
if we have 16 units and are strong, thanwe cant indeed split the task force.

i still think we can spare a few from home defence though :D

Boy am I glad that Scout and Bugs are on our side. I think that TNT is about to do a very good impression of a 2x4 running through a chop saw...:D

Troops, troops, and more troops. You guys sound an awful lot like... me! :D

Assuming MIA doesn't hit us immediately, we will soon have "enough troops to divide our forces".

Translation - I have only begun to "rush". ;)

Edit: Remember team, shields aren't the only thing we'll get in a GA...

Some ideas for the home front. We are nicely defended in our lux cities and along the coast.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/409/homefront0ck.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Suggest forts at the three yellow marks.

Suggest an outpost at light blue X.

Suggest the access road along the white lines. We have a really nice road network already.

We might want two defenders on the jungle mountains. With two new GS, we are in very good shape.

forts should have barracades, so we slow down any sort of advance. I would even suggest barracades along the roads in back of our front line cities to slow down any cav's or knights in the event of an attack.

I think that there is another city between the rubble at Furbomb and DAncing nana. I have no proof, but it doesn't make sense that they would stretch that far from their existing borders but hey, they have a city in the jungle that is 2 tiles away from wines.. so they might be :crazyeye:

In the screenie below... The orange dots are cities that can be deduced from the visible borders. The Green dots are cities that could be there and us no know about them yet

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5268/image24af.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

On turn 105 here were some borders that I posted. You can see an outline of a border south of x-Furbomb that's not there after they razed.
Also of note, Carpetbomb has not grown since turn 105. Workers? Grenade has grown from 3 to 4 but the capital has grown from 5 to 8.

How symetrical is the map? We may be able to see through the darkness by checking an overlay of our terrain to theirs.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/7283/tnt37vh.jpg

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2639/tnt44xb.jpg

It's not completely symmetrical. Dunderhead is essentially where their capital is. But they have FP right next to their capital. Our FP is closer to I'mus.

The Great Meleet has not unfolded the world from his back pocket in an exact manner as we perceive it. Not to say that it's not perfect. It's just that our feeble minds cannot comprehend the machinations that The Almighty Rik had to go through to create such a perfect world.

Edit: after pondering what Whomp has written... and re-reading it. And finally understanding it... The border that runs just north of the unclaimed Ivory was created because TNT owns the tile W of Furbomb and the one NW of the Ivory. The tile N of the ivory is not in any city's 9 tile radius. So that means that there is a city 1W-1NW of the ivory (1S of the southern green dot in my pic).

Or in the case it has culture it will be 1W-2NW of the Ivory (1 SW of my southern green dot)

Let's not worry about it. We'll march straight at their core and create more wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Plus with their already weak military, they have hurt themselves even more by placing that warrior on a mountain. Can't defend too many things up there. What good does knowing how many ships we're sending over do if you don't have any cities to defend.

@Bugs: I could really use your help drawing up a plan for "Zone Defense" of our core area in the north.

On the current campaign... should we torch Grenadopolis or Dancing Banana next?

I don't mean to interrupt your question to Bugs but I think this is an important discussion.
If we think about how many units we kept in our capital the answer would be zip. I'd think the majority of their forces are in the jungle cities. How long would it take them to cover that city? I know there's one road from the jungles but possibly not two. Worst case we can head north with the stack and terrain seems to be the most important part of this stacks invasion.
Though I like the idea of attacking the iron (plus it's a smaller city) I think that could be a job for the next load.

Resource denial is very important, but if their capitol is still wide open we need to take it. How about this idea - If Unabomb is razed, send one unit from your southern stack and scout the capitol. If the capitol is empty, send all forces in that direction. If it isn't, then send forces north towards another empty city.

I'll draw up a zone defense plan shortly. BTW - I really liked your dot map for a three city front.

Scout - given Tubby's intel, I think we might want to assemble a treb/pike/MDI force to deal with TNT's pikes when they finally arrive from the jungle.

Zone Defense

East Coast:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5383/zoneeastcoast2an.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Once we have roads at the two white lines we will be very strong here.

West Coast:
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8640/zonewestcoast6am.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Here we are blind and weak. We can't see anything south of the red line. We are ripe for a sneak attack here. I would send units per black arrows to the coast for look out duty. OK, maybe not the warrior on the mountain. Leave him be. We need a response force at red circle and we need some roads running along the coast.

The central jungle is in fine shape. Concentrate on the southwest.

@Bugs: Thanks for the zone defense notes, I reallly appreciate it.

I've got a few sites in mind for settling that west coast...and if you look at the save you'll see some workers in the general vicinity of Knucklhead and Paradise Hotel.

On th workers in the west: My plan at this point is to gradually work most of those workers towards the jungle, ideally moving twice before hitting an unimproved tile...then road, then move to another unimproved tile until they get to the jungle. I'll leave a couple of workers up there to continue improving the terrain in those cities.

The terrain is in pretty good shape around Knucklehead... which is one of the reasons I rushed a granary. We've actually got a few more tiles improved than we can work...which is a nice problem to have. Previous turnplayer(s) left us in good shape there.

My plan for the jungle is to have individual workers road, and then move them in gangs to chop the jungle. Bede had some forumula worked out for doing this most efficiently... and I'll prod him for that method as I get more workers down there.

Working jungle is a bit of a nightmare. If anyone has it figured out, it is the Venerable One.

The terrain is in pretty good shape around Knucklehead... which is one of the reasons I rushed a granary. We've actually got a few more tiles improved than we can work...which is a nice problem to have. Previous turnplayer(s) left us in good shape there.
This is a very gentlemanlike way to note that workerturns has been wasted :lol:. Defense plan looks solid. Are we in need of more workers?

Best Regards
A previous turnplayer

With all that jungle and swamp, we can always use more workers.

In our gmail:
Immortal #1 (3/3) attacked Morpheus (5/5 GS).
Immortal #1 lost 3 hp, Morpheus was killed.

Immortal #2 (4/4) attacked SupahFly (4/4 GS).
Immortal #2 lost 2 hp, Snooka was killed.

Immortal #3 (4/4) attacked another 4/4 GS.
Immortal #3 lost 1 hp and was promoted, the vet GS was killed.

This is a very gentlemanlike way to note that workerturns has been wasted.I disagree with that assesment. I have some nice tile-swapping opportunitites between SKWTD and Knucklehead, and if you take a look at Knucklehead and the surrounding terrain you can see that town will be powerful for us very soon. Perhaps some worker turns were premature... but now those workers can be pushed towards the jungle and I don't have to worry about new citizens in Knucklehead working unimproved tiles.

I see we finally have a battle log... looks like TNT whacked a couple of our GSs, and we're now down to six in our spearhead force.

Their capitol is not likely to be undefended now... perhaps we should go after their iron instead?

How far do we want to take this war?

Here's an email I just sent:


To: Team TNT <teamtnt@gmail.com>
CC: Ginger Ale <ale.of.ginger@gmail.com>, RegentMan <TitanicWhiz18@comcast.net>

Subject: Request Clarification (Was: Re: Turn 119 Battle log)

I am curious as to how a 3/3 Immortal can lose 3 hit points and still kill an elite Gallic Swordsman. Is there a typo there?

Moderators, please check the save against the information provided, and advise.

Best regards,
scoutsout

On 4/7/06, Team TNT <teamtnt@gmail.com> wrote:
Immortal #1 (3/3) attacked Morpheus (5/5 GS).
Immortal #1 lost 3 hp, Morpheus was killed.

Immortal #2 (4/4) attacked SupahFly (4/4 GS).
Immortal #2 lost 2 hp, Snooka was killed.

Immortal #3 (4/4) attacked another 4/4 GS.
Immortal #3 lost 1 hp and was promoted, the vet GS was killed.
(Sorry, I didn't check to see which one got axed. I hope it wasn't one of the Eastwood guys.)

I see two possibilities - either it was a misprint of HPs lost, or it was 4/4, not 3/3. I'm asking Team TNT now...

I see two possibilities - either it was a misprint of HPs lost, or it was 4/4, not 3/3. I'm asking Team TNT now...While you're at it... ask them if "Snooka" should be "Supahfly". Did they kill 3 Gallic Swordsmen?

Off this topic... dangit... NONE of them retreated?

Just so you know, it was a typo, it should be 1/3 HPs left. I tried the battle myself and got the same outcome...as for your question, you can ask them yourself.

Just so you know, it was a typo, it should be 1/3 HPs left. I tried the battle myself and got the same outcome...as for your question, you can ask them yourself....as sent in gmail: :mischief:

To: "TitanicWhiz18@comcast.net" <TitanicWhiz18@comcast.net>
CC: Ginger_Ale <ale.of.ginger@gmail.com>, teamtnt@gmail.com

That's what I thought... a basic typo. It doesn't matter now... that Immortal is no longer immortal. Battle log to follow.

Kindest regards,
scoutsout

On 4/8/06, TitanicWhiz18@comcast.net <TitanicWhiz18@comcast.net> wrote:
Ginger took a look at the save and after getting comfirmation from donsig, it appears that it was just a typo. Immortal #1 went from (3/3) to (1/3) after the attack.

I noticed that we're building archers in the turnlog. what the purpose? (sorry if already stated, couldn't find anything in a quick search).

@Grahamiam: they are to be upgraded once invention comes in.

We're not building mounted units at all, but beelining for MT. My guess is Nutters will have some MW's left and will up them as soon as chiv is in. Could these facts be turned into some sort of combined strat for us and Doughnutians? If we want to whack MIA with cav's we can't build them straight up and still hit before MIA has MT. At least my guess is that even if we beat them to it, it will take too long to train a respectable force of 90 shielders.

@G-man: Crakie got it right - I plan to upgrade the archers when Invention comes in.

@Daghda: You're right about the mounted units... but there is this small matter of a war going on, and we sorta need units capable of taking on pikes. If we can figure out a way to get Chivalry (must we self research?) then we can build some knights... but I don't know what we'd do with horsies in the interim...

Building knights (especially if they say "nee") makes sense. Building plain old horsies really doesn't right now. I like the archer upgrade plan.

If we can get donuts to go for chivalry and trade with them, that would be a nice plan.

Ah, the war...yes :lol:. My thinking was not that we should start building horsies ASAP. We will get chiv from Nut's as soon as they have it and I'm pretty sure they're going for it soon. What I proposed was a mutual strategy plan for us and Nut's, which allowed for us to focus on MDI/arty/Pikes (which is useful right now), and them to focus on mounted units. Then when the MIA rumble begins we could make use of these combo forces to whack the Greeks. Downside is we would have a lot of purple cavs on our territory, but that may be countered with us being superior at sea. We allow a certain amount of Nut units over here, then we "close" the gaps with our ships. I dunno...just that holding on to beating MIA with our own cavs doesn't rhyme with the current goings. Therefore we might want to revise that plan in some way.

I proposed to build knights a while back, but the old boys network didn't really take notice :mischief: Well, except Bede, IIRC, who thought that knights were a bit expensive... and he has a point. Perhaps we should stick with the cheaper slow units until we forced a breakthrough.

I proposed to build knights a while back, but the old boys network didn't really take notice :mischief: Well, except Bede, IIRC, who thought that knights were a bit expensive... and he has a point. Perhaps we should stick with the cheaper slow units until we forced a breakthrough.The problem is whether we want to research a optional tech at this point. Donuts has no interest in researching chivalry since they'd rather upgrade their MW's to cavs. So to me the quesiton is whether we want to get off the MT track and build a unit that I think is odd (70s) at this point in the game and would require a 17/18s or 14s city building it.

Would it make more sense to get chivalry from TNT (they've offered it) when we're done with them and let Donut finish the job? MIA has it but that means they're behind the curve on researching towards MT.
We could build horses and upgrade with cash?

In theory... yes, we could upgrade horses to Cavalry... but it wouldn't be cheap... at all.

We're going to need to make a decision pretty quickly on whether or not to detour to Chivalry. If TNT and MIA both have it, it'll be cheaper because it's "known". I'm not sure TNT has it... but if they do... we'll need a pretty stout stack when we start in on Dancing Banana.

I'm for starting in on Gunpowder.. as a stack covered by muskets can be formidable at this juncture.

Chivalry poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169634) is up

What is the window between the end of our peace with MIA and the possiblity of having Cavs? That would be our most vulnerable time-frame.

Assuming we can be done with TNT and repositioning things, our jungles with pikes/trebs should be enough to keep MIA at bay if they go continental, if they go naval we would need to keep our GS around for the speed.

I lean toward B-lining to Cavs, but then I'm an idiot.

Well Kick... By the time we end peace we'll have Guns even if we go for Chivalry. So we won't be vulnerable just not on the attack.

Btw, it looks like the like MIA had the top half of the tech tree and TNT drew the bottom, so we'll beat them to it.

I think muskets will be a good deterrent for MIA. They may have knights, but they would be foolish to attack trebs and muskets behind walls.

I think muskets will be a good deterrent for MIA. They may have knights, but they would be foolish to attack trebs and muskets behind walls.

Maybe we should send them the first half of "The Charge of the Ligth Brigade" - just to encourage them to try. "Half a leauge! Half a leauge! C'mon, you can do it :evil:

Donuts has no interest in researching chivalry since they'd rather upgrade their MW's to cavs Are we sure on this? Is Robi saying they don't want Chiv? I remember Nut's wanting to have chiv in the treaty as a given tech to research. If they wanna join vs. TNT to have a piece of those luxes, they might want some Knights after all.

Side note: How about whacking those pikes? I don't remember the odds, but even if they're fortified, they're still standing in the wide open without any defense bonus whatsoever...

But the Imortals are just at their backs, so I wonder it isnt a good ideia attack those pick at this moment.

Okay... I'm working on this longbow landing... worst case scenario ... it looks like 9 turns. I loaded the last turn to take a few screenshot so I can lay it out for the team.

Planning in reverse here... with "D" being the turn we land... here's the movement over water:

http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/637/land015uh.jpg

Here's the overland movement, which goes all the way back to the rearward-most Longbows... which will be completed next turn in Simpleton and Dunderhead. We presently have one each in Jesterton and SKWTD, and a pair in Knucklehead.

http://img422.imageshack.us/img422/552/land028zv.jpg

Now... I might be able to shave a turn off this... maybe (maybe) two...with some creative galley-rushing...and careful pre-positioning... but there is nothing I can do about the overland movement. It will take some time to move the troops across the land, and it will take what it takes.

Sorry to ask stupid questions.

Refresh my memory, was it six longbows and two pikes?

How long until peace is up with MIA?

Would it be possible/practical to take the amphibs and swing around the south end of Battle Isle to position them in a place to cry havoc on MIA when the time is right? Or would that be so far in the future that they would be obsolete?

If not that, will we be able to reposition them in time for the Main Event?

Sorry, I lost Civ Assist and have to reload Civ III on my box, I'm going from posts and memory.

Refresh my memory, was it six longbows and two pikes?Six to Eight Longbows... looks like six at the moment.How long until peace is up with MIA?another 36 turns or so...and I'm aware of the main event... and plan to gradually move troops southward...

Let's remember it's better for MIA to attack us because Donut has to join if they do. :mischief:

Well one cannot argue with basic facts. So nine turns until D-Day 2. I wouldn't mess with creative galley rushing unless you need it for something else.

In the meantime we need to do some demonstrating of our own to keep the main TNT force in the east. If the tile west of Spite is open next turn, perhaps move a small stack there just to give Dinsog a minor panic and move a bunch of troops into Unabomb.

thats the point Bugsy. To take some advantage from their 1 mov Imos, we may show the face of ours Dancing GSs close to them (but not close enough to be fired)... then a Counter Strike from then, in our D-Day2 stack will take a few turns, but enough to bring hell.

By the way, wil be interesting lead their troops for a non roaded region.
Like the forests south their Capital city

How many units do we want to designate to demonstrations? Maybe a pike and two GS?

How many units do we want to designate to demonstrations? Maybe a pike and two GS?I'd prefer to organize a somewhat larger demonstration in the town square of whatever that is SE of Dancing Banana.

I suspect that's where Semtex and the MoM are. I am anxious to see if TNT will pull their "anti-siege-auto-raze/self-destruct sequence" in their wonder city.

anti-siege-auto-raze/self-destruct sequence" in their wonder city.


i would almost pay real money to see this again