From this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=124671) we've decided which ruleset to use. We've only got a few things left to do. Here, let's review the ruleset, and make sure there aren't any obvious errors or issues.

There is still a poll outstanding for the 5BC variant, and where we'll put it. That poll close on 7/30, we'll update the ruleset based on that.

This post will contain the changelog for the ruleset. The 2nd post will contain the Constitution. The 3rd post will contain the Code of Laws.

We're in the homestretch!

Changelog
0.1 Posted.
0.2 – Update
Con C – language on foreign civs clarified
Con E – gramatical change
Con G – Clarified duties of Judiciary
Con G – Noted Use of PD is optional
Con K – Removed “at any time”
CoL C.1 renamed to D.1
CoL G.1 creared – judicial procedures
CoL H.1 reorganized to a more logical format
CoL H.1 use of “regular” made consistent
CoL H.1 length of nomination period extended to 4 days
CoL H.3 language about directed duties clarified
CoL H.4 language about automatically vacating office inserted
CoL J.1 clarified official vs unofficial
CoL K.1 requirement to state a reason added.
CoL K.1. Quorum for Recall changed to ½
CoL N changed to N.1

0.3 – Update
Con/CoL renamed House to Assembly, change references to People to Assembly
Con F – added reference to local civic government by Governors
Con I – clarified wording to include deputies and use simpler language
CoL H.4 – clarified wording about deputies and vacancies – offer is required
CoL H.2 – changed requirement for DP to greater than ½, not just ½

0.9 – Update, posted for final review
Con – Preamble expanded (thanks Bertie, Greekguy)
CoL H.1 – allowed first term elections to start at any time
CoL H.1 – explicitly state that terms start on the 1st, end on the last day of the month
CoL L.1 – significant rewrite – added clauses about absent instructions, length of game sessions, CoC, end of session actions (post summary/save) and more details on instruction thread, max. time between sessions and requirement for detailed log.
CoL H.2 – added clause for if there are more game sessions than DP’s

0.91- Update, posted for review
Con B – changed title (removed “the”)
Con C – Clarified final sentence
Con E – Clarified Minister of Defense duties (added first clause)
Con F – Changed “... made up of the 6 ...” to “... made up of 6 ...”
Con G – Rewrote for clarity, declare concepts of Judicial Review/Investigation and require them to be “fair, impartial, public and speedy” (whew!)
CoL H.1 – replaced “turn” with “term” in second paragraph
CoL H.2 – added clause for an empty DP pool, allow pool members to switch places
CoL H.5 – clarified wording
CoL K.1 – clarified how to handle recall of the Chief Justice
CoL L.1 – cleaned up language

0.92 – Update, posted for review
Con F – Added clause to Senate to handle case of no citizen elected as Pres.
Con H – changed to “fixed term not to exceed one month.”
CoL F.1 – Added to support the Senatorial election of a President
CoL H.2 – Clarified that DP Pool is not an office

0.93– Update, posted for final review
GLOBAL – Replaced CIV_NAME with Fanatikos
Con F – Added clause on declaration of War and Mobilization
Con F – Edited for clarity
CoL F.2 – Added clause supporting the DoW process
CoL F.3 – Added clause supporting the Mobilization process
CoL K.1 – Clarified repeat section – count is for same official


Thanks!
-- Ravensfire

We, the people of Fanatikos, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship, cooperation, and pride, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have an equal voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of all citizens and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Here, there are many people involved with making the decisions on how the game is played. Instead of all sitting at the same computer, we use the forums to discuss the game with each other. To manage many people playing the game, a government has been formed to provide a structured way for everyone to be involved in the decision making process. We encourage all citizens to take an active part, and to act as a citizen would, to role play their views and actions.

This government is much like real life. It has a Constitution, a Code of Laws, and elections to select Leaders that are responsible for managing certain aspects of the game. Continue reading and you will find all you need to know to participate in the DemoGame.

Article A. Citizenship
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of our country, and members of the Assembly. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to request an investigation into possible violations of law and the right to vote. Political parties are not permitted.

Article B. Laws of Fanatikos
Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, such amendments that shall follow and lower forms of law that may be implemented. No rule shall be valid that contradicts these Articles.

These rules may not contradict the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics Forums. Moderators may veto any such rules.

Article C. Game Structure
No more than 5 cities built by Fanatikos may exist at any time. In addition, only one city from each foreign civilization may be taken by any means. All other cities that we gain must be razed immediately.

Article D. Government Structure
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch and the Judicial Branch. All leaders must determine and implement the will of the Assembly.

Article E. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for tasks and projects that affect the Nation and is headed by the President.

The President is responsible for control of the slider, worker allocation and resolving disputes between leaders, such as over use of gold. The President is also responsible for all tasks not assigned to another leader.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs is responsible for all matters involving treaties with foreign nations and all espionage activities. This includes Trade Embargoes, Military Alliances and the use of Spies to acquire technologies.

The Minister of Defense is responsible the defense of Fanatikos and military planning. The Minister also controls the actions of all Military units.

The Minister of Trade and Technology is responsible for all trade initiatives and research goals. The
Minister also coordinates any plans for spaceship construction.

Article F. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch is formed of the Assembly and a Senate of Governors.

The Assembly is made up of all citizens, and is responsible for the creation of new laws and Amendments. The Assembly will present all such proposals to the Judiciary for review.

The Senate is made up of 6 Governors, and is responsible for the well-being of the cities of Fanatikos. Each of the 5 native cities will have its own Governor, and all captured cities will be controlled by the Expatriate Governor. Each Governor is responsible for the care, management, and use of cities they control.

Each Governor may also setup a civic government for the cities they control in any manner they see fit that does not conflict with Fanatikos laws.

The Senate is also responsible for choosing a President should an election cycle complete with no citizen elected as President, and for placing Fanatikos in a state of Mobilization.

The power to declare War is given to the Assembly and the Senate.

Article G. Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will consist of one Chief Justice, one Public Defender and a Judge Advocate. These three justices are tasked with upholding, clarifying and reviewing all changes to the Constitution and its supporting laws through Judicial Reviews, and upholding the rights of all citizens through Investigations. The Judiciary will carry out all its tasks in a fair, impartial, public and speedy manner.

The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility to organize and conduct the affairs of the Judicial Branch. The Public Defender will act as council to an accused citizen, if the accused citizen wishes. The Judge Advocate will act as the prosecution.

Article H. Elections
The Executive Branch positions, Governorships and the Judiciary positions are all elected positions with a fixed term not to exceed one month.

Article I. Multiple Offices
Citizens may hold only one elected office at any given time, or be a deputy to only one elected office. Citizens may not have more than one accepted nomination at the commencement of the general election.

Article J. Will of the Assembly
Elected Officials must plan and act according to the Will of the Assembly. The Will of the Assembly is the aggregate wish of the citizens of our Fanatikos. It is determined by unanimity in a completed discussion, or by the majority vote in an official poll.

Article K. Recall of Elected Officials
Citizens may request a Recall of an elected official.

Article L. Game Sessions
All irreversible game actions must be made by a Designated Player during a game session using instructions posted in a game session instruction thread.

A special session to accomplish a specific, short goal may be held by the President if there is significant public support. These special sessions do not count as a regular game session.

Article M. Playing the Save
Commission of any game action, by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties, which is not instantly reversible without reloading the save, is strictly forbidden.

Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately closed without saving.

Article N. Census, and Amending the Constitution
The Census is defined as the average number of votes cast, dropped fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent general election

Amendments to the Constitution must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 4 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a 67% majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain, and have a total number of votes greater than 1/2 of the census.

Section D.1 Freedom of Information
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

Section E.1 City Placement and Naming
Discussions on city placement and names will be lead by the Governor of that city.

Section F.1 Senatorial Election of a President
The Senate is responsible for choosing a citizen to serve as President if an election cycle completes with nobody elected to the office of President. A Senator will create a thread for interested citizens to post in, and be questioned by the Senate. 3 days after the creation of this thread, the Senate will vote amongst all interested Candidates via Private Message to the Chief Justice or a Moderator. The citizen receiving the most votes is elected President. If more than one citizen ties, a run-off election will be held between only those citizens.

Section F.2 Declaration of War
To declare a war, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will create a normal poll for the House, and a thread poll for the Senate. If more than 50% of the voters, not counting abstain, in both polls support the declaration, war can be declared. If either poll gains a 67% majority in support of war, war may be declared regardless of the other poll.

Section F.3 Declaration of Mobilization
To declare Fanatikos in a state of Mobilization, any Senator may create a discussion about it. After at least 48 hours, a vote may be called for by a Senator. If seconded by another Senator, each Senator must post within 48 hours of the second if they support or oppose the Mobilization. If there are more votes in support than oppose at the end of the 48 hours, Fanatikos is to be placed in a state of Mobilization.

Section G.1 Judicial Procedures
The Chief Justice must post the Judicial Procedures by which they plan to run the Judiciary. These procedures are not binding until 2/3 of the Judiciary accepts the procedures. They may not be changed except through a unanimous decision by all members of the Judiciary. These procedures may not contradict the Constitution or the Code of Laws, but are considered law.

Section H.1 Elections
The Election Office, a citizen’s office supervised by the President, will perform all actions needed for each election cycle.

Each Governor position will be a separate election, and all will be held each term, even if the city does not exist. In the event the city does not exist, the order of priority will be clearly stated in the election description (i.e. Gov. 1, Gov. 2).

The regular election cycle starts at the posting of the nomination threads, and concludes when the last poll, including runoff polls, closes. Nomination threads will be posted 8 days before the end of the current term. Election polls will be posted 4 days later, and will list all accepted candidates for each election. Election polls will be marked private, and last for 3 days.

Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more front runners, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie.

Except for the first term, all terms will start on the 1st of the month, and end on the last day of that month.

Section H.2 Designated Player Pool
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for DP Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than ½ of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The Election Office will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used. All DP’s that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DP’s will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions that DP’s, start again from the top of the list.

Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of Fanatikos to serve as DP.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

Section H.3 Deputies
All Executive and Governor positions will have a deputy. The Deputy is permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed by the elected official, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Game Session, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office.

The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent.

If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval.

Section H.4 Vacancies
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must offer the appointment to that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

If an elected official does not post in the DG forums in 7 days without prior notice, any citizen may request the Judiciary to investigate. The Judiciary, by a majority vote, may declare the office Vacant at the conclusion of the investigation.

Section H.5 Confirmation Polls
A confirmation poll is used, where permitted by law, to give citizens the opportunity to challenge certain actions. If a challenge poll does not exist for such an action, any citizen may create such a poll. This poll must be created within 24 hours of the action, should ask “Do you approve of <description of action”>, contain Yes, No and Abstain options, and run for 2 days. If the action concerns a citizen, the poll must be marked private. Otherwise, it must be marked public. When the poll closes, if the majority of citizens, not including abstain, voted No, the action is overturned. Any other result confirms the action.

Section J.1 Polling Standards
Polls posted by an elected official on an area they control are considered official and binding unless specifically stated otherwise. Polls posted by citizens, by officials outside their area or by officials in their area explicitly noted as such are considered unofficial, and do not bind officials in any way. Officials should, however, take such polls into account during planning.

The description and initial post for all official polls should be stated in a clear and neutral manner.

The initial post should contain a link to all relevant discussion threads. Each option should be explained if not immediately clear. The time frame for the poll, and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post.

All official polls must be open for a minimum of 24 hours to be binding. They are strongly encouraged to be open for at least 3 days.

Official polls should be flagged as “Public” unless directly concerning another Citizen.

Section K.1 Recalls
Any citizen may create a thread requesting the recall of a specific elected official. This post must include the reason the recall is requested.

Should two additional citizens post in that thread supporting the recall within 24 hours of the initial post, the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the recall is for the Chief Justice) must create a Recall poll. This is a private poll, asking in Yes/No/Abstain format if the elected official should be removed from office. This poll should run for 4 days.

If 2/3 of the citizens voting support the recall, ignoring abstain, and the total number of votes is greater than 1/2 of the census, the citizen is removed from office, and the office is declared Vacant.

A Recall may be requested no sooner than 7 days after a previous attempt in the same term on the same official.

Section L.1 Game Sessions
All irreversible game actions must progress during a game session, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline. During each session, the designated player must provide a log of their actions in sufficient detail to replicate their actions.

A Game Session Instruction Thread must be created at least 2 days before the chat by the Designated Player for that session. Should a thread not be created in a timely manner, the President may create one. Game Sessions must be at least 3 days apart, no more than 7 days apart. The initial post should contain the date and time of the game session, a link to the save to be used for that session, and if the game session will be on-line or off-line. If the game session is off-line, a citizen may post a confirmation poll for that session. If the confirmation poll fails, the DP must reschedule the game session as an on-line session.

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to hold the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

If the DP for a session does not show up, or is unable to continue, a substitute DP can be chosen for that session. This substitute is chosen from the President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Defense and the Minister of Trade and Technology, in that order.

Section N.1 Amending the Code of Laws
Amendments to the Code of Laws must be posted as a Proposed Poll in the discussion thread for at least 24 hours prior to submission to the Judiciary. The discussion on the amendment must have lasted at least 48 hours.

Amendments must pass Judicial Review. If accepted, the Judiciary will post the poll. This poll will be open for 3 days, state the new text and the current text. To pass, an amendment must have a majority of positive votes, ignoring Abstain.

Please, review and post comments, suggestions and errors. Look for the obvious errors, typo's, etc. Likewise, any sections that can be simplified (where the language gets in the way), please post.

The goal is to post a ratification poll on Tuesday, August 2nd.

-- Ravensfire

Separate polls for each section, right?

Separate polls for each section, right?
I'm planning on doing a single ratification poll for the whole thing. It's been out there for quite some time - I don't see the reason behind polling each, individual section.

-- Ravensfire

I'm planning on doing a single ratification poll for the whole thing. It's been out there for quite some time - I don't see the reason behind polling each, individual section.

-- Ravensfire

Hmm, ok. I just figured that since you didn't want me to do the same thing with DG5... :p

I was just hoping to let those people who object to individual sections to be allowed their objection to be heard.

Hmm, ok. I just figured that since you didn't want me to do the same thing with DG5... :p

I was just hoping to let those people who object to individual sections to be allowed their objection to be heard.
Qutie honestly - that approach didn't work. We went radically different here, with three ruleset developed seperate from each other. The only thing we really polled about the ruleset was 5BC restriction. Every other time there have been a lot of polls that often got ignored.

I didn't really care who's approach was chosen - the winner was going to be posted for everyone to review and get their objections out there. Tweaks are made, then the whole thing is tossed out to ratify.

One section at a time just doesn't work. Lots of reasons why, but the chaos we've had in the past 2 DGs speak loudly.

-- Ravensfire

Im still against the DP pool and wish to see the president be the one that does the DPing.

small mis- interpretation, sorry :(

Read before the edit, sorry!

-- Ravensfire

Nitpicking mode... beware!

On the bright side: this means I like the structure of this proposal. I especially like the DP pool idea and the recall.

Article C: what does 'from each foreign civ' mean? Originally built by that civ? Or in the possession of that civ right before we gain it?
Last line: please change "All other cities" to "All other cities that we gain", or similar.

Article E: maybe change the line on the minister of defense to "The Minister of Defense is responsible for the defense of the nation and for military planning. This Minister controls all military units."
Maybe "military unit" should be defined somewhere (like: every unit with nonzero attack or bombard value).

Article F, 3rd paragraph: "The Senate is made up of the 6 governors...". Should there be a "the" before "6"? (first time the number of governors is mentioned).
Maybe we should think of a good name for the Expatriate Governor. Did the Greeks have a special name for the rulers of their colonies in Asia Minor?

G.1: Judicial Review is mentioned a few times in the Constitution and CoL, and article G speaks of an "accused citizen", but apart from that it's not quite clear what the Judiciary does. Maybe we can put something here like:
"The Judiciary is tasked with:
1. Explaining or clarifying the law upon citizen request (Judicial Review).
2. Checking proposed new law for consistency with existing law (Judicial Review).
3. Dealing with violations of the law by citizens or officials (Citizen Complaint).
4. Determining Vacancies."
(any more?)
For number 3, I would also like to see some golden standards mentioned, like "innocent until proven guilty", "equality of arms", "public accusation" and "public evidence only".

H.1, second paragraph: I truly hope "turn" should be "term" :D.

H.2: please add something like: if the pool is empty (i.e., no-one was voted in), then the President appoints one or more DP's.
Also please add: "DP's may trade places by mutual consent." (This is to avoid trouble if potential DP's are only available second half of the month or so).

H.5: does this mean explicitly permitted by the law, or implicitly (i.e., where not forbidden)? I assume the first.
One but last line: "majority" ignoring abstain or not? pleaes make explicit.

J.1: [is in the wrong place, should be before K.1]
what if an official is not very active? Maybe a citizen poll could be official then?
Perhaps like this: "A citizen may ask an official to post an official poll concerning [part of] his TC instructions, if such a poll does not exist. If the request is supported by at least N other citizens, then the official must post the poll. If he fails to do so, a citizen may post the poll, which is then considered binding [if it adheres to polling standards]." Here N should be low, maybe N=2. The bit about "TC instructions" is not quite good yet, because there may not be enough time to poll (TC instructions go up one hour before game session). Maybe someone has a better idea....

K.1: is this going to be messy if the Chief Justice is subject to recall?

L.1, last paragraph: "session not" should be "session does not".
"be unable" -> "is unable".

H.2: please add something like: if the pool is empty (i.e., no-one was voted in), then the President appoints one or more DP's.
Also please add: "DP's may trade places by mutual consent." (This is to avoid trouble if potential DP's are only available second half of the month or so).

Would these appointed DP's be picked from all citizens or are they forced to be from within the nominations who were not elected? I'm assuming that if no one nominates themselves then it's from all citizens.

Nitpicking mode... beware!

Article F, 3rd paragraph: "The Senate is made up of the 6 governors...". Should there be a "the" before "6"? (first time the number of governors is mentioned).
Maybe we should think of a good name for the Expatriate Governor. Did the Greeks have a special name for the rulers of their colonies in Asia Minor?


Not really. Anyone who wasn't a Greek was considered a barbarian. Granted, 'Governor of the Barbarians' doesn't sound any good. Maybe 'Governor General,' 'High Governor,' 'Proconsul Governor' (to follow a Roman model), or'Lieutenant Governor' (a British mode) could work.

I still hold, however, that we should eliminate the useless Senate and move the governors to the executive branch, unless we finally decide to give the Senate some sort of power. Power to declare war? A body to which a person can appeal a judicial decision (like the English House of Lords)? Ability to grant ceremonial recognition? Duty to elect the State Dogcatcher?

Maybe the senate of governors could control big, nationwide decisions, such, revolutions and mobilization. these are usually 1 or 2 time things, so it would help justify calling the set of governors a "Senate".

Not really. Anyone who wasn't a Greek was considered a barbarian. Granted, 'Governor of the Barbarians' doesn't sound any good. Maybe 'Governor General,' 'High Governor,' 'Proconsul Governor' (to follow a Roman model), or'Lieutenant Governor' (a British mode) could work.

I still hold, however, that we should eliminate the useless Senate and move the governors to the executive branch, unless we finally decide to give the Senate some sort of power. Power to declare war? A body to which a person can appeal a judicial decision (like the English House of Lords)? Ability to grant ceremonial recognition? Duty to elect the State Dogcatcher?
But using a Lt. Governor would be confusing since the deputy governors oftenly use Lt. Governors.

Whew - thanks for the comments!

Let's see, xyzy - many thanks for being nitpicky. Great catches. Comments on a few things I didn't put in, and why.

Defining Military units - it's a "I'll know it if I see it" thing. Workers and settlers aren't - everything else is.

Judiciary - I've put in there that things must be done fairly, impartially, openly and speedily. The CJ (with the blessing of the PD/JA) creates the actual procedures. We did this last DG, and seemed to work quite well. Those procedures have to follow the law, so the protections your looking for are there.

Inactive officials - That's what the recall process is there for, plus the nebulous Will of the People. Rather than try to figure out when citizen polls are good, and when they aren't, allow those to handle it. A leader blatently ignoring calls from citizens to discuss X or poll Y without good cause is going to get recalled or investigated - take your pick. Allow those to control behavior, rather than a third process.

Octavian - the "Expatriate Governor" was a quick, spur of the moment thing. CG's got a good point, plus they are at the same level as the others, so toss LT Governor. Proconsul Gov sounds okay. Anyone else have an idea?

As for the Senate - well, it works and I didn't see a reason to change it. Also, the Governors SHOULD be closer to the people than the executive branch. They represent directly part of the nation. Also, we don't have anything in there, yet. You never know (although I will remind everyone of the disaster when we tried giving the Senate slider/gold duties).

Greekguy - see above. Basically, we tried giving the Senate control of the Slider and gold rushes. Neither happened. It was a bad idea, and was rightly scrapped.

First three threads updated with the updated ruleset!

-- Ravensfire

Oh well. It won't harm anything, but it still is completely useless to keep the Senate it - we can amend the constitution later when we find a use for it.

Just a question, though - why are the CoL sections lettered the way they are? How about a simple A-B-C, instread of the apparently random use of the letters? :D

Just a question, though - why are the CoL sections lettered the way they are? How about a simple A-B-C, instread of the apparently random use of the letters? :D

I can't remember who came up with this (Strider, last DG maybe), but the letters correspond to the article in the Constitution they detail. So, the H sections of the CoL are putting more detail into the concepts from Article H of the Constitution.

-- Ravensfire

Greekguy - see above. Basically, we tried giving the Senate control of the Slider and gold rushes. Neither happened. It was a bad idea, and was rightly scrapped.
-- Ravensfire

yes, i understand that you tried giving the governors slider duties before and it failed, but i'm suggesting something different. sliders issues come up every turnchat. a revolution or moblization come up very rarely, and since there would be 6 of them and not 3, there would be better chances of it working out.

btw, great job with your constitution and organizing a lot of stuff.

Con. H still says fixed term of one month, where CoL H. says the term starts on the 1st except for possibly the 1st month. This would be a guaranteed JR because of the language that the CoL cannot contradict the Con. I suggest the Con should be changed to say "a predetermined term not to exceed one month."

I'll call "got it" on posting nominations, let me know asap if anyone else has already stepped forward. :)

Maybe the Senate could appoint a President to a Vacant Presidency....

In any case, somebody (or some body :) ) has to do this.

From the nomination thread - make clear that DP poll does not count as a nomination for election purposes.

-- Ravensfire

unless we finally decide to give the Senate some sort of power. Power to declare war?
That would be great! A 2/3 majority vote by the Senate is required to declare war upon another nation. Now we could know how the Civ II Senate felt... Make treaties require Senate approval too?

That would be great! A 2/3 majority vote by the Senate is required to declare war upon another nation. Now we could know how the Civ II Senate felt... Make treaties require Senate approval too?

Won't this marginalize the decisions by the citizens? Would this be in addition to the citizens poll, or in place of?

-- Ravensfire

It would almost definetly been in addition to a citizens poll - maybe a majority required in each poll, with a supermajority in one poll negating the negative vote of another. For example, if 3 senators and 51% of The Assembly approve, war is declared. If four senators and 40% of The Assembly approve, war is declared, while war is still declared if only two senators approve along with 67% of the Assembly. Governors, after all, have a huge stake in a 5BC game when a war is declared, as such an action will significantly alter plans they may have for their cities.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea.

Maybe this?

Constitution:
The power to declare war is given to the House and the Senate.

Code of Laws:
To declare a war, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will create a normal poll for the House, and a thread poll for the Senate. If more than 50% of the voters, not counting abstain, in both polls support the declaration, war can be declared. If either poll gains a 67% majority in support of war, war may be declared regardless of the other poll.

As with the rest, the concept is in the Constitution, details in the Code of Laws. This isn't a core part of the ruleset, so this is appropriate.

Thoughts?

-- Ravensfire

yes, i understand that you tried giving the governors slider duties before and it failed, but i'm suggesting something different. sliders issues come up every turnchat. a revolution or moblization come up very rarely, and since there would be 6 of them and not 3, there would be better chances of it working out. Call me a bit leery of putting too much into the Senate. We did, in fact, give the Senate a fair amount of power in DGII. The abject failure during DG IV though still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think putting part of the declaration of war is a good start. A revolution is, ultimately, about the people, and probably should stay there. The mobilization though, that might work.

Folks - thoughts on putting the Senate in control of Mobilization?

btw, great job with your constitution and organizing a lot of stuff.Thanks! Cannot wait to see this all started!

-- Ravensfire

I'm fine with the war format and mobilization proposal.

DS - Done, and thanks.

Updated first three posts.

-- Ravensfire

Little nitpick on Article F - the Senate is responsible FOR choosing a President... You might also consider removing the remaining language about 'the House' to conform to the 'Assembly' name, as that connection may not be clear.

...connection may not be clear.

Definitely wasn't for me. I'm ashamed to say it took me quite a bit of searching to realize that the name change had been proposed in a separate thread. But then things made sense.

Well, that's the point. In a few months when these threads are inactive, we may have a few confused new citizens. :D

Done, done, done and done. And done.

Consider this a warning post - I plan to poll this version for ratification tonight. Please look for nit-picks, etc!

Sorry for not getting the update up yesterday - something about baseball, bars and adult beverages.

EDIT: Clarified timeframe

-- Ravensfire

looking, wait for a crabengawhatchmacallit. :D

Col on the DP pool:


Should the DP pool be empty, the President is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen of Fanatikos to serve as DP.

But what if the citizens didn't vote for any of the people in the DP pool "election" because they want only the President to play? Probably need some kind of confirmation vote here.

Con Article J:

It is determined by unanimity in a completed discussion, or by the majority vote in an official poll.

Unanimity is a bit strong, I prefer the term "no serious opposition". Otherwise anyone wanting to throw down roadblocks can make a single negative post about everything and force a poll on everything.

Review complete.

Once comments have been disposed (you decide whether to accept or not) then it's Crabenga... how do you spell that again? :goodjob:

Ratification Poll is UP! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125496)

-- Ravensfire

Ratification Poll is UP! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125496)

-- Ravensfire

Why did I get this weird feeling of dread when I read that statement? On a completely unrelated note, is anyone else experience unstoppable bleeding?

Great Job, Ravensfire!...

Here is the Nit I found:

Section F.2 Declaration of War
To declare a war, the Minister of Foreign Affairs will create a normal poll for the House... should read Assembly

There were a couple other really small things that I won't comment on, unless either becomes an issue. Thanks for all your hard work.

i agree with grimy great job ravensfire (some might say this is a post simply to call him grimmy they would be correct)

Too bad you misspelled both ;)

For future reference, it's Mr. Grimey

Thanks, raven, for putting all of this together!