Welcome to your game thread. Please use it and subscribe to it. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125341), where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) page on August 5, midnight, server local time.

Thanks go to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

The variant is Hydrophobic Conquest. You are America, your goal is to conquer your archipelago world, and you are afraid of water.

The rules are simple:

1. You will build no boats. Seaborne units are all disabled for America.
3. You must win by Conquest. America must be the only civ standing at the end of your game.
4. Red and Gold Laurels will be awarded respectively to the members of the C3C and Classic teams achieving the fastest conquests.
5. PTW and Vanilla teams are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders before 1000 BC in this game

Here's the start:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm8.jpg

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/sgotm8mini.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - America
Opponents - Six, preselected
World size - 80 wide by 80 high. (Small)
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Archipelago
Barbarians - Raging

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
- America can't build boats. The AI can.
- All victory conditions are available except Diplomatic and Spaceship.
- Settlers, workers, scouts, explorers, leaders, cruise missiles and tactical nukes can be loaded into helicopters.
- A side effect is AIs can load tactical nukes into any boat with transport capacity ... so beware :nuke:
- Bombers have lethal sea bombard only (lethal land bombard removed)
- Cruise missiles, stealth bombers and F-15 have both lethal sea and land bombard.

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included in this game. If you have played SGOTM 7 then you will be ready. If not you may need to download and unzip a small graphics mod pack. Vanilla/Mac players need to install the GOTM mods. The best way to achieve this is to use the relevant All-in-one GOTM Installer for your OS, linked in my signature.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game. Vanilla players in particular should understand the late-game equalisation modifications that we don't often have to worry about.

The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112722)

Notes:

A. The Classic (Play the World and vanilla 1.29) versions of Civ3 AND Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) are all supported in this game. Because of the different game play, Classic and C3C teams will play for separate awards.
B. All teams must play the sponsored variant.
C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Allright, lets talk strategy.

First, it seems our first attack will be with only paratroops and planes. This means we MUST have a huge tech lead, so the AI won't have planes when we attack. This makes bombing just like artillery. I would suggest cxxc spacing with occasional cxxxc. The republic slingshot seems ideal. We don't start with alpha, but our opponents will be isolated. After we get to a republic as soon as we can, we need lit for libraries. Then beeline to education for unis, and then cops observe. The Collosus would be nice but we have to concentrate on the rep sling.

I guess we then drop paras off and then bomb then :hammer:

Anyone want to agree, disagree, add on, etc?

I'm not so sure a Republic Slingshot will work, depending on who our opponents are and how the map is configured, since it's a custom job. If there are a decent number of SEA opponents and the map looks like SGOTM7's did (I followed that loosely from the sidelines) then it seems likely that the AIs could establish some decent trade. It'll really be a decision we have to muse over more though, as we'll have to commit to it. I also like the Colossus, though we as of yet don't seem to have a good site for it.

Regarding our primary form of attack, I agree with Bombers, but don't agree with Paratroopers. Paratroopers (90 Shields, 4.9.1) are, quite frankly, trash. The real trick is to use Helicopters (100 Shields) now that they have a Transport Capacity of 3. I would rather have a Helicopter dropping 3 TOW Infantry (120 Shields, 12.14.1) than 5 Paratroopers or 4 Modern Paratroopers, who can pretty much only defend.

So I think our invasion strategy is mostly going to be based around Bombers, Helicopters, and TOW Infantry (or maybe Cavalry if we have sufficient Bombers, though I can't remember if they can load into helicopters). After establishing a beachhead with these forces and either burning an enemy city or capturing a worker (likely both) we can then install airfields and bring in Tanks or Modern Armor to mop up.

Considering that the game will, at the very minimum, run on until the late Industrial Age, I submit that we should go with primarily CXXXC spacing, as CXXC is going to be overly restrictive for the large-shield units that the IA requires and that will ultimately wind up slowing us down at the most critical stage of the game for little benefit in AA and MA, as our units won't be able to really go anywhere unless there's another AI on our starting landmass.

I think stockpiling Spears to upgrade into Infantry might be crucial, and will also help defend our land in the two ages until we can advance. Having Leonardo's Workshop could also be a huge boon. In fact, given this is supposed to be an aggressive conquest, and it'd better to have a bunch of cheap units sitting around waiting to be upgraded rather than trying to crank them all out right before an invasion (remember: time is the most valuable resource of all) I think it might be prudent to ignore Republic entirely and go for Monarchy and eventually Communism, as if we go with a loose city spacing Republic will afford us virtually nil in terms of unit support.

Then again if we go with Monarchy and amass units for later upgrade, we can perhaps afford CXXC.

Regarding opening moves, I think the very first thing we should do is move our Scout onto that mountain to the west and see if there's anything better than our poor start location.

OK, before we talk about what units in particular we're going to use to invade, it's important to decide how we're going to prep for the invasion.

Are we going to amass units (after killing any resident AIs of our island) throughout the MA and early IA, and then go for a massive upgrade of units? If that is the case, then Republic would not be ideal, the low unit support would crush our economy.

I think mass-upgrading would be the fastest method of going about our invasion--once the technology is available, we already have our army. This plan would stipulate primarily CXXC city placement, as that would provide a boost to our economy, and much needed unit support.

CXXC would also allow us a bit more flexibility in terms of specialists, which we should be able to use extensively to cut down research by a turn on most techs.

I honestly don't think going for Republic is the way to go. It seems contrary to any aims of mass-upgrading units, doesn't allow for MP (we can keep entertainment at 0 if we have 3 MP in all our cities, most likely), and I have a hunch the that AIs will be talking to each other, and could possibly beat us to the slingshot, especially given our lame starting spot.

Anyways, as for opening moves, I agree the scout should probably move west to the mountain. I'm thinking moving the settler SE looks like it may be an acceptable spot for the capitol. (what are the bonuses given by that food tile?)

Oh, and I don't particularly like the idea of the collosus, at least based not right now. Maybe in a different city. But right now I just can't see us wasting the time on it in our capitol.

Edit: Blah, Symphony D. beat me to some of my points... Darn you and your editing of posts!!

The real trick is to use Helicopters

Oh yeah, forgot those.

we can then install airfields and bring in Tanks or Modern Armor to mop up.

Nope. We can never fight with tanks or modern armors. Only units flagged with "foot unit" can be tranported by airlift or heli. That includes cavalry.

Having Leonardo's Workshop could also be a huge boon.

Amen.

I think it might be prudent to ignore Republic entirely and go for Monarchy and eventually Communism, as if we go with a loose city spacing Republic will afford us virtually nil in terms of unit support.

I don't agree. We need to research lightning speed, for when we initially invade all we'll have is ToW and bombers, and if we don't beat the AI to flight, we'll have a big intercepting problem. Free unit support is ugly in rep but the commerce bonus and lower corruption greatly make up for it. I think we need to build warriors, swords, etc. for eventually ToW upgrade. That costs a lot of money, and we may only be able to upgrade 20, so we don't need to frantically build them for upgrades. We need to worry about infrastructure.

Another thing, Sistine Chapel could be a big boon, even bigger than Leo's. A cathedral in each city with a market and 4 lux regardless of govt requies no lux tax. We have till late industrial to build infra, so don't be afraid of all those shields, and 4 lux will be easy. If we get 6 (not at all impossible) we won't even need cathedrals. Lux are easy on smaller maps, cause they're more crammed everywhere, and since we won't be warring till late industrial, we can trade withou planning a war against a civ.

Nope. We can never fight with tanks or modern armors. Only units flagged with "foot unit" can be tranported by airlift or heli. That includes cavalry.
A quick check of the C3C Editor shows Cavalry, Tanks, Mech. Infantry, and Modern Armor all have the Airlift Tag checked for Airports and Airfields. I'm not seeing anything in game mods about this changing.

With that in mind, I'd say the role of TOW is decreased to just the initial invasion force to secure a beachhead for bringing in Tanks, Mech Infs, or Modern Armor from Airfields and Airports. For that to work it may be prudent to set up an Airfield farm somewhere within our territory later.

Considering Modern Armor takes awhile to get to, it may just be best to use Mech Infantry offensively. This has an added benefit in that whatever Spearmen we make, ever, will ultimately become Mech Infantry if they survive that long, giving us a ready-made army that can attack and defend pretty well as soon as we hit the Modern Age. TOW Infantry coupled with Helicopters will essentially serve as Aerial Marines to give them bases to deploy to and attack from.

This works for the early game because it gives us a large defensive force (Spearmen) to keep the AI off our island with (which later becomes the offensive force) and a moderate sized attack force (Warriors, Swords, Archers, Longbows) to kill stragglers with (that eventually becomes our shock force).

If we pursue this method of stockpiling troops to eventually upgrade we're going to have to have lots of cities (CXXC) for troop cap in either Republic or Monarchy. As a result we're going to have high rank corruption, and a lot of specialists as IstariAsuka points out. Those can be either scientists or taxmen. I personally think that if we go CXXC and utilize specialists we can get troops, happiness (MPs) and research (specialists) all at once, while with Republic we will at most likely only bet getting happiness (which will require luxuries or [for this game] mostly useless culture buildings) and research.

Checking in - this looks like fun
Some quick thoughts
1) Research speed is essential for quick conquest - we need to get to adv flight ASAP
2) Need to have invasion force ready when helis avail (my understanding is we can airlift tanks via airports, therefore we need helis to land settler and defence units, then dow -> build city and rush airport, next turn lifting tank from each home city ready for attack next turn. Repeat this for each island.
Therefore I argue we do need republic - ASAP. Also we only need enough military to take / secure our island before we get to tanks, therefore little support costs until we are big enough to support it (I would not disagree with communism prior to invasion if that would not delay production too many turns)
All this is well into future - initially we need to decide on settle ? desert tile on lake or the plains between lake and sea if we seriously think we can snag collossus with it. Any other suggestions?

while with Republic we will at most likely only bet getting happiness (which will require luxuries or [for this game] mostly useless culture buildings) and research.

We don't need island defense. This isn't always war. Republic can support second most (democracy is most) units when all infra is in place, which we will have plenty of time to do. With 6 easy to get luxuries, and markets that's all we need for happiness. I don't know if we can get the slingshot, but at least we can still get republic eventually. The slingshot saves us maybe 20 turns? If there are any locals we can easily finish them off before we get republic. I think it would be safe to assume there's nobody on our island. Republic will probably cut our research time in 4. I think CXXXC with occasional CXXC is fine. That will give each city about 15 tiles, so low wastage pre-hosps and good production once we get hospitals.

re large defensive force - this appears to go against advice of most good players - the AI recognises attackers as stronger than defenders and is less likely to attack if this results in our military appearing stronger - in addition these can get rid of pesky landings whilst defenders can only watch on helplessly as valuable improvements are pillaged. I would expect us to need some force to deal with raging barbs and likely company on our island - we may want to keep them around a little while to speed up research pace until we have other contacts - depends who they are.
I think we need to balance a rapid expansion of our island with enough units to handle barbs - any co-habitants of our island may have to wait until barbs suppressed.

I'm going to try and break my thoughts down a bit better because I feel I'm doing a poor job explaining myself. Here are the two options as I see them:

Option 1: Go for Republic, climb the tech tree as fast as possible, get to Advanced Flight, use Helicopters to land Infantry / TOW to secure landing sites, then use Tanks / Mech Infantry to invade. Until just prior to invasion, keep a minimal defense force and run for tech.

Option 2: Go for Monarchy, also climb the trech tree as fast as possible, get to Advanced Flight, use Helicopters to land Infantry / TOW to secure landing sites, then use Tanks / Mech Infantry to invade. Keep a large army prior to the invasion with the intent to upgrade it at the critical time and be ready to go.

Here's why I support Option 2:

If we go with Option 1, we likely will move through tech slightly faster, especially if the Republic Slingshot works. However, once we get into the Industrial Age, we have to mad-dash for our units to be ready in time for when Helicopters show up. If we go CXXC for this, our cities will be fairly resource poor and it will take them a long time to crank out 100+ Shield units. Even if we go CXXXC mostly and can produce them at a good clip, it still takes a long time to build up a force of 100 or so units.

The other problem is that Motorized Transport is just before Advanced Flight, meaning unless we gave up, say, ToE to snag Hoover's, or Flight to stockpile Bombers, we would have 4 - 8 turns to build tanks before getting Advanced Flight. This means we would have a relatively puny strike force to follow up any aerial invasion with if we choose Tanks.

If we had a large standing body of Spearmen (up through Infantry) sitting around, and then went one tech farther to Computers, we could upgrade them all to Mech Infantry and have a large standing army only slightly worse than Tanks on the offense, and way more defensively capable. Plus we wouldn't have to build them, we could buy them. Of course if we have no defensive force sitting around, then using Mech Infantry instead of Tanks saves us nothing.

The fact that we could buy our main strike force means that we could instead focus our industry on getting stuff that has to be handbuilt, namely Bombers and Helicopters. We could also keep some older Infantry around for use as the Aerial Strike Force rather than using TOW Infantry, since we'd have them on hand, saving even more time. Basically we would need to only build Bombers and Helicopters to invade at that stage, rather than build Bombers, Helicopters, Tanks, and TOW Infantry.

It's an issue of saving time earlier (researching as fast as possible but winding up at the critical moment with a skeleton military) or saving time later (taking longer to get to the critical techs to launch an invasion but having the units on hand to upgrade into the army we need to actually invade).

If the concensus is to go Republic and keep troop levels low, I'll bow to the majority on that one, but we are going to be seriously conflicted regarding what to build when all those IA techs come at once and we need 3 to 5 different units in large numbers and our best cities are pumping out maybe 50 - 75 shields at most.

A thought re wonders

If all goes well we will have a considerable part of this game alone on our island in builders mode - we may get the opportunity to build wonders
I would argue that libraries, markets, courts and unis should come first, later banks and factories to support and build our invasion force, but if we do build wonders what will benefit us most

Collossus, Copernicus, Newtons for obvious science boost (ToE)
Pyramids are always great but on emporer will cost too much in sacrificed REX
Sun Tzu's so all our later tanks are vets
? Leo's if we get to modern armour upgrades
Adam Smith's - less money spent = more research
Hoover Dam - IMHOP the most important to build those 100spt units
Universal Suffrage (so we can stay Rep during war phase) - I rarely build this even when at war in rep - just make them short and sweet (ie decisive)
I may have missed some, but if not I would suggest considering collossus in AA, Sun Tzu's & Copernicus +/- Adam Smiths MA and Hoover & ToE IA

re upgrading infantry / mech infantry strike force v build tanks
upgrading option will cost much money -> less research so no quick modern armour but also delay getting to mech infantry
If use ToE to get atomic / electronics after researching refining (so know where oil is), can then research tanks with enough techs still to research to start building tanks in our newly Hoover boosted cities until adv flight when switch to half a doz helis (sorry also need airports in there) then going for bombers.
Both methods have pros and cons - if going via infantry pathway I would still see no need to build up too early (and pay for units that wont be used till much later) and I worry our attack may stall without overwhelming bomber support if our enemies build mech inf or TOWs - I guess we'll need decent bomber support anyway unless we catch them still with refilemen (wishful thinking on my part - but the earlier we get there the better our chances).
We dont know how many cities we will be able to build - we must make use of every shield producing tile by this stage of the game (a good reason not to settle in place)

I'd say Pyramids and Sun Tzu's are virtually worthless on an Archipelago when they only work on your starting landmass. I'd rather build Granaries and Barracks individually than sink massive shields and time into a wonder that's fairly pointless considering the land form. Sun Tzu's would also detract from getting Leonardo's done.

To sum up all my thoughts, I'll put it this way: I am heavily set against playing a pure or even semi-pure builder mode for the first two ages, because once we become warmongers it will be an absolute nightmare trying to get all the units we need. I used to do it before when I was Warlord / Regent level and preparing a full offensive force from scratch will set us back anywhere from 25 to 50 turns depending how thorough we want to be if we have no real military to begin with. Unless we're going to go full-bore Communism with Mobilization and do some heavy Conscription, the time required to get all the units we'll need will really come back to bite us in the arse.

I have to agree with your point re pyramids and Sun Tzu's on small achipelago

Collossus, Copernicus, Newtons for obvious science boost (ToE)
Pyramids are always great but on emporer will cost too much in sacrificed REX
Sun Tzu's so all our later tanks are vets
? Leo's if we get to modern armour upgrades
Adam Smith's - less money spent = more research
Hoover Dam - IMHOP the most important to build those 100spt units
Universal Suffrage (so we can stay Rep during war phase) - I rarely build this even when at war in rep - just make them short and sweet (ie decisive)
I may have missed some, but if not I would suggest considering collossus in AA, Sun Tzu's & Copernicus +/- Adam Smiths MA and Hoover & ToE IA

I'm not entirely sure Collossus will be worth the time involved... I can't see building it in our capitol, and by the time we have a city well-suited for it, it is likely that the computer will have built it.

Pyramids just aren't that important. We aren't going to have a ton of cities--this is archipelago. Furthermore, by the time we could actually finish building it most of our non-corruption-crippled cities will probably already be a decent size, making the pyramids not very useful anyways.

Sun Tzu is just dumb. We're not going to have a ton of cities. The shield and time investment involved is waaaay to high to save like 10gpt. Especially given that getting it would probably severely undercut our ability to get much more imprtant wonders such as Leonardo's Workshop, and maybe even Bach or Sistine.

Adam Smith's I could see, but it'd need to be in a different city than Copernicus and Newton's. At that point we could probably spare an inner-core city to produce Smith.



Anyways, as a monarchy we will be making somewhat less commerce than as a republic. However, I feel that we will make up for this fact by not having to WAIT for an army, but rather by having one right away. Tech may go slightly slower, but we'll then save turns once we HAVE the tech.

Also, the slower tech pace will be mitigated by the face that we'd likely do CXXC, meaning more specialists.

The less money problem is also somewhat mitigated by MP. It's DOUBTFUL that we'll have more than 3 luxuries, it really is. Unless our land-mass is really strange. MP would allow us to keep luxury slider set to 0, which would otherwise probably not be possible until a Happiness Wonder in the middle ages.

I think monarchy is the way to go.

If we go with Option 1, we likely will move through tech slightly faster,

Not just slightly faster, MUCH faster. The commerce bonus is huge.

In the modern age with factories, plants, railroads, mobilization, and golden age (F-15s) each city should be pumping out units in average 2 turns. On an average small arch with CXXC spacing we'll probably have 10 cities. 5 units a turn is 100 in 20. If we can upgrade 100 units by building them early, that saves us 20 turns of unit building. But republic will save us at least 50-75 turns of researching. All that upgrading will also cost us a hefty sum, and even in monarchy is still a lot of units to support. That will add extra time to research.

I stand with republic. Most great players agree republic is the best in almost every situation. This happens to not be one of the few situations that which monarchy is better.

I think we should think about a switch to a non-representative govt before invasion, as casualties are really high in modern wars. Probably monarchy, as we won't be big enough for commie to give benefits, the forced resettlement is ugly in facism, we all know what's going on with feudalism, and since most towns will be metros, monarchy will have more free units.

It's DOUBTFUL that we'll have more than 3 luxuries, it really is.

Not really, on small maps, lux are crammed everywhere, and trades will be easy. I wouldn't be surprised if we got 7 or 8.

[EDIT] Alright, whatever, I'm not going to turn this into a slugfest over which way is superior. If folks wanna go Republic, fine. I think it's a mistake being builders for two to three ages when the ultimate objective is to take over the world, but my objections have been noted, and I'll be quiet about it.

When we have to hammer out 100 to 200+ units in about 30 - 40 turns though,if anybody complains I am totally saying "I told you so." :p

if anybody complains I am totally saying "I told you so." :P

Deal. If we turn out to be wrong, we all have to type "Listen to Symphony D. from now on" 10 times :p .

Sweet. ;)

So, onto opening moves: Scout goes West to the Mountain. Do we found on site and live with irrigated FP for food and mined plains for shields, or look elsewhere for the capitol?

re settlement
I think in a limitted area we will be needing all shields
We start in food rich region - lots of FPs, I think it would be consigning our capital to low shields to settle in place. Because of the lake, both S to desert or SE to plains would benefit from sheep on plains, 3 FPs, 5 forests and still keeps hill usable. The desert tile has disadvantage that it cannot build harbour (for its only 1 sea tile) nor collossus, but potentially more shields from plains tiles instead of sea. Overall I am swayed towards the desert tile (which probably means we give collossus the flick).
Another thought for consideration - do we build another scout ( I think 1 enough on small achipelego) or go for early granary with forest chop and quick 2nd worker. Having more industrious workers allows for quicker set up of settler factory and roads to new cities Other choice is when to build warriors for baiting barbs or MP, but do we need them immediately?

Deal. If we turn out to be wrong, we all have to type "Listen to Symphony D. from now on" 10 times :p .

Unfortunately if the pro-Republic forces are wrong it will be too late by then

I do concede some merit to monarchy, but my overall feeling is building units early we pay for upkeep not needed till later whilst sacrificing speed. There are 2 reasons I would like to get to advanced flight early.
1) our enemies will hopefully be less advanced
2) this is a compitition measured only by win date - the earlier the better

Having said all that I believe we have other team members yet to come on line - I would be keen to hear their opinions before committing one way or the other :)

Let's get a roster order first.

Andronicus- You're up first when the saves are available.
IstariAsuka
Symphony D.
Own
stagnate
Abeqweit
voe

Hi all. :wavey:

Abegweit checking in for duty. Sorry but to be late but I was away for the weekend (it was a long one here) and just got back.

Some comments about the early game (e.g. pre-helis):

1. The plan has to be to research like mad. That means a beeline for Republic and plenty of libs. We seem to agree on this. :) Libs before markets?

2. I think we should try for the slingshot. In my experience, I almost always get it on Emperor. This is even more likely on an archipelago map. I'm not sure what difference the contact trading mod may have on this though. One thing: this decision doesn't have to be made immediately though. I suggest that we beeline for writing. At that point we decide - as a team - about whether to go for CoL or Philosophy next. If we go the latter route, we should take the most expensive tech available although, because of the AIs research priorities, currency is probably better than construction.

3. I agree about the CxxxC spacing. This game will enter its critical phase well after hospitals and we want big powerful cities. We will ICS outside the core, natch. A final decision on spacing should await exploration. It is possible, for example, that we have some friends :ar15: on our little island.

4. I disagree strongly with the notion of stockpiling units. That costs gpt, which should go into research. Upgrading is expensive in C3C as well, even with Leo's. Our big industrial age cities should be able to crank out the units when the time comes.

5. Re Wonders: the only essential ones are the ToE/Hoover pair. Although this does bring up another question: how do we plan on getting our GA? Anybody know what wonders are exp/ind?

6. Re start position. I tend to favour the plains square (it's close between the plains and desert) but the plains has two advantages. First, as Andronicus noted, it's on the ocean. Secondly, and I think more important, it gets immediate access to the lamb. With that - and an early forest chop - we can get a granary up real quick. The advantage of the desert is obvious enough, but it doesn't come into play until sometime into the Middle Ages and will be largely obviated by railroads. Cranking out early settlers and workers is more important IMO.

Libs before markets?

I think that's a good idea.

1. The plan has to be to research like mad. That means a beeline for Republic and plenty of libs. We seem to agree on this. :) Libs before markets?

Libraries before markets would be smart, I'm thinking.


2. I think we should try for the slingshot. In my experience, I almost always get it on Emperor. This is even more likely on an archipelago map. I'm not sure what difference the contact trading mod may have on this though. One thing: this decision doesn't have to be made immediately though. I suggest that we beeline for writing. At that point we decide - as a team - about whether to go for CoL or Philosophy next. If we go the latter route, we should take the most expensive tech available although, because of the AIs research priorities, currency is probably better than construction.

Agreed--we should definately make towards writing. Then, if we don't think we can make the slingshot in time, we should just get philosophy before CoL. In fact, if we can't make the slingshot but really really want republic a little faster (which would be good), we could at the worst pop CoL with philosophy.


4. I disagree strongly with the notion of stockpiling units. That costs gpt, which should go into research. Upgrading is expensive in C3C as well, even with Leo's. Our big industrial age cities should be able to crank out the units when the time comes.

Well, it's not really feasible to stockpile units as a republic, but as a monarchy it would have worked. But I guess we're going the republic route, so it's a moot point.


5. Re Wonders: the only essential ones are the ToE/Hoover pair. Although this does bring up another question: how do we plan on getting our GA? Anybody know what wonders are exp/ind?

GA will be tricky, especially if we succeed in getting there before they hit flight. However, if we can pull that off, I'm not sure a GA would be overly important to our success. By the time we could use an F-15 to initiate it we should already have an entire army busily invading their continents. As for wonders, seti is expansionist, hanging gardens is industrious, hoover dam is industrious, copernicus is expansionist... Do wonders trigger a GA if they only have ONE trait associated with them? Since there are no wonders that are both industrious and expansionist, but those are one OR the other (with no other traits, just that 1). If they do trigger a GA, then copernicus or hoover dam are possibilities for when the time comes.


6. Re start position. I tend to favour the plains square (it's close between the plains and desert) but the plains has two advantages. First, as Andronicus noted, it's on the ocean. Secondly, and I think more important, it gets immediate access to the lamb. With that - and an early forest chop - we can get a granary up real quick. The advantage of the desert is obvious enough, but it doesn't come into play until sometime into the Middle Ages and will be largely obviated by railroads. Cranking out early settlers and workers is more important IMO.
I similarly like the plains square the best. What bonuses does the lamb give? Anyways, we need to get out some cities as fast as possible.

Lambs: +2 food

As for wonders, the rule is that if you own wonders with your civ's traits when you build any wonder you will trigger your GA. You can conquer wonders to satisfy one or both of the traits requirement. We could, for example, conquer the Gardens and then build Copernicus. Or conquer both and then build something else. Or build them both. We are not likely to conquer any wonders in this variant so, if we want a GA, we will have to build them.

Here is the complete list (I looked it up):

Expansionist: SETI, Lighthouse, Colossus, Copernicus, Magellan's
Industrious: Great Wall, Gardens, Pyramids, Hoover, Manhattan

The choices appear to be:

Colossus-Gardens. Well-timed and both wonders are useful. I am reluctant to devote early shields to a wonder (Colossus) though. Furthermore Monarchy is a useless tech, although we could certainly trade for it. If we try this route, the plains square is clearly the best.

Gardens-Copernicus. A bit late but not tooo much and both wonders are useful.

Copernicus-Hoover. Clearly late but we should have no trouble achieving it and it will be useful for that last burst of speed towards flight and ... :mischief: .

A final choice would be to build the Colossus, hoping to get the Gardens. If we fail on the Gardens, that makes just one more reason to make sure we get Hoover's.

I suggest trying an attempt at HG-Nic if the opportunity arises to build the Gardens. If we don't manage this, we should absolutely make sure to get Nic-Hoover.

Edit: in either the Colossus-Gardens or Gardens-Nic variants, the GW is a decent backup if we fail to get the Gardens. It is even more useless than ever in this variant but that's beside the point.

I want a late GA from internet or the F-15. More fun that way.

Checking in.

One thought that I had, that might not be viable, is to allow the AI to settle on our island, and then attack them, hoping to get a remote city and foothold to make some earlier conquest. If the AI doesn't settle quick enough we also have the option of gifting them a couple of cities and then conquering them (probably need 2-3 to be able to get a city in return).

If we are in republic we can rush military even in an unproductive location, and make good progress.

The downside is that before maps we won't be able to tell what cities we want to get (bigger islands better, 1 hop islands worthless).

Also, even if we don't use the remote locations to start pressing war, we can have them ready as footholds when we go to war. Being able to have an airport and drop in 6-10 tanks when we get flight will be great, and no need to research advanced flight per se.

Viable? I'll be reading back about other strategy options and taking a look at the save tonight.

Stagnate:

I have thought of something similar to this idea. The problem is that the AI sucks at archipelago, and probably won't settle in our lands at all if they didn't start there. We may never even see one of their boats until we're prepping to invade them. Therefore, making contact with them may be very difficult, unless one or two of them prove to be seafaring (I would judge this to be fairly likely). If we DO make contact with them early, then yes, I rather like your idea (though we'd want to build some cities for the express purpose of gifting... we wouldn't want to give any good cities to the AI!).

We could also possibly leave any AI on our island with one city, in the hopes we can buy communications with other AIs from them come the end of the MA (presuming we've seen them build a boat or two). This, however, seems like a dumb idea.

It seems this would be rather much easier to do in PTW, where we could (fairly likely) garner contact with all of the other AIs easily enough before finishing off the one(s) near us. But such is life.

That's a great idea, but the only problem is that the only units we'll have to invade will be 1 or 2 that the corrupted town we get can produce. Maybe if we had enough cash we could rush as army in there...

OK some more thoughts for initial progress

Research - do I conclude we have maj consensus we go for writing aiming for rep slingshot, but being prepared for phil -> something else (? libs) if appears unlikely. ? at max research. What effect do we assume early contact trading may have on AI research (ie trading contacts will be avail with writing)?

Settle option - the advice for settling on plains appears sound as it allows earlier usage of our most valuable square

Build orders - ? early granary -> farmer's gambit / ? 2nd worker / ? warrior for MP / ? 2nd scout - any thoughts?


re GA - I believe we should aim for wonder generated GA - Gardens and Copernicus or Hoover and Copern. appear reasonable options.
I dont hold absolute confidence in getting Gardens @ emporer level.
A Hoover induced GA could be great for kick starting tank production if research MT after atomic / electronics (hopefully from ToE), then rapid research through to flight when switch to airports / bombers, completing our GA research with adv flight and ready to invade - this also means no need to research monarchy.

Note early contact trading and map trading
as per game thread notice - Alan H:

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.

Note early contact trading and map trading
as per game thread notice - Alan H:

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that in my earlier post.

If we are able to make contact with foreign AIs relatively early in the game, it seems that it would be a good idea to try for a city gifting gambit to get ourselves positioned on their island(s). This would, at worst, save a little time later in the game, and at best provide a base for early military conquest of at least some of the AIs. If we got some decent footholds, it could be worthwhile to slow research somewhat in order to amass money for unit-rushing, to take over their lands early (Middle Ages). If/when these wars stall, we could at worst purchase any techs we've missed, and throttle back up to full research capacity.

I think we could conquer the world like this. We need a TON of cash, though, but I think it's feasible. Hopefully we can get 2-3 cities on their island for faster cash rushing. We still will need relatively superior military, as we will be greatly outnumbered.


Let's give this a shot. I don't think we can beat Team Obormot or Team klarius if we try the way most everyone else will try, who knows, it may work.

I think we don't want to try this until we have Knights, so I think the initial turns will be pretty straightforward. When we hit MA we can evaluate based on contacts, probably put down 2-3 small cities for trade purposes, and go.

The biggest concern will be getting good position with a city or two. I think it'll be hard to get more than 1 city, but with enough cash and on-par or ahead tech we can fight small wars (possibly try to get placed on 2-3 islands, then wait for calvary to push.

Initial turns (IMO of course :-)
Settle 1 south. We need production, so split the FP between the capital and another city.
Build Scout, Worker, Warrior, Granary

We want 2 scouts to explore. If we are alone on the island we only barely need to worry about military against barbs. We want to irrigate the plains in order to get decent food/production rates, so I think that extra worker early is important.

Research towards slingshot (I think we can make repub, but evaluate when the time comes).

hi, reporting for duty. I will start reading your ideas and hopefully will have something usefull to add after that.

If research towards rep 100% is 40-50 turns, switch to minimal research to help our cash buildup. If we had the GL :mischeif: we could build up a ton of cash for unit buying on the other continent.

Doing well in this game will be all about getting to Republic as fast as possible and then achieving 4-turn research throughout the MA and IA.

Assuming that everyone is in close contact like they were in SGOTM7 (it's hard to see how a helicopter-conquest could be possible if they weren't), the contact-trading mod will speed up the tech pace once writing is learned anywhere. This is not necessarily a bad thing and may actually make it easier to achieve goal #1. It will definitely make goal #2 easier.

There is a second Republic Slingshot which is trickier to manage but even more rewarding if we can pull it off. It works this way: Research Philosophy immediately after Writing. Next enter the Big Picture and trade by hook or by crook for Code of Laws. THEN take Republic as your free tech. We can even delay getting Philo until CoL is known. All this is dangerous, of course, but the rewards are great.

This trick can also is used to get Monarchy. Trade for Polytheism instead of CoL. Even though we don't want to use be Monarchs, we should definitely take the tech if the opportunity arises It's great for trading and gets us closer to Gardens too. Of course, Republic is to be preferred if both are available.

WRT goal #2, there are two ways to speed this up.

First we need a GA and we need it early. We have to get those Lib, Unis, Markets and Banks up ASAP. That's what a GA is for. Since we can't get it from our UU, we will have to get it from wonders. Colossus-Gardens would be best, but it's doubtful that we can afford to devote our energies to building the Big Statue. However, it is a decision which can be put off for a couple of turn sets and we should build on the plains square in order to retain the option. Secondary choices are Gardens-Cop, Colossus-GW and GW-Cop in roughly that order of desirability.

Secondly, we need the AI to help us research. This means that our Rep is golden. Do not break it. Avoid wars as far as possible. We want the AI to be paying us GPT for tech.

I think Stagnate's idea of allowing the AI to build on our lands is interesting. However I don't see how beating it up for garbage cities, which we then have to pay gold to defend, is in our interest. Beating it up for tech is a different story. That's worthwhile. OTOH, it's probably better to be friends with everyone and keep them happy giving us their GPT. This also is a decision which can wait.

We should not cash-rush units. Cash is for research and building maintenance, not units.

In a way, this game is a bit like 100K. In a 100K, you ignore culture at the beginning completely, going hell-bent for conquest. It's only after you conquer the world that you fill it up with temples and libraries and other stuff.

This game is like that. The initial objective is not conquest but research. We should not think about conquest at all (unless we share this island) until we get to flight. After that, we rip through one AI after another.

In view of this, we have no need for knights (or even cavs), except to defend our own lands. Each coastal town should get one up-to-date defender to prevent the AI from getting ideas. Add in a few mobile troops to take out any landers and that's enough.

For the same reason, we should definitely not research either Chivalry or Military Tradition. Those are optional techs and we need to make a beeline straight to Flight. The only optional techs we want are Republic (for the government) and Monarchy (for the Gardens). At some point we will want to trade for these techs in order to get the units, but there certainly is no rush to do it.

I think it's the consensus to try this gambit:
Build up a military. Gift most of our cities to an AI. We then take them back, and get a couple cities on their island for peace. That's our foothold, and we can cash-rush units there. This may be a great idea, it might not, but we aren't gonna take the laurel from Team klarius or Team Obormot if we go the way they do. It's a crazy idea, just crazy enough to work.

So we do need cash to rush units, those cities on the other continent will be making 1 shield and one gold. I'm going to run a test game of this variant right now.

That's a completely different game from the one we have been talking about so far. You'll want markets instead of libs. Leo's would also be useful (disconnect resources and upgrade). T'would be better to be playing vanilla too.

Go for it and let us know what happens... You might try it on SGOTM7. I think this map will be similar to that one. The concept is heli-conquest after all.

Edit: I suspect you'll get bogged down after the first AI or two but I'm certainly willing to be proved wrong. It would be a neat coup if it can be pulled off. The contact and map-trading rule changes will help you. I'm sure know this but... make sure you get those little island cities.

I couldn't try a test game, because-
A) Map was hand-built.
B) Always had an opponent on my island
C) Very boring

And, a test game is sorta cheating isn't it?

Re gaining cities on other islands in peace deal
I doubt we are the only team discussing this. The main benefit would be a ready made launching pad for invasion.
There are a number of obstacles which require thought before committing valuable commerce resources
Any city obtained in peace treaty which is on 1 or 2 tile isle is a gain as this is 1 less site to have to search for later and can likely be defended by 1 or 2 warriors blocking access
If on a countries main isle, then we will be at risk of attack after 20 turns (will we commit to cash rushing 2 defenders, also ? harbour, ? barracks) or even flipping. It is unlikely we could afford cash rushing an army to take the main isle of any civ unless they were very weak (eg 4 cavs v spears). This would all be very expensive and slow our progress to advanced flight and D-Day. Perhaps a more beneficial strat would be to gift that city to the strongest AI -> they will be happier with us -> more trade options so we can bleed them dry and they will likely be attacked -> counter attack on weaker civs isle - not usually sccessful by AI. It is in our interests for the AIs to war between themselves whilst trading with us.

First of all, it is fairly doubtful that we'd get a 1-2 tile island city. Most of their cities will be on their mainland. The probability that we get such a useless city is very low.

In fact,I think you're incorrect that getting such a city would be a good thing, since we'd easily get that city for peace before killing the AI during our flight invasion. Anyways, the chances are low, so it's not something I think we need to worry about.

Also, Andronicus, it seems that most of us, if we are able to get some footholds on enemy lands, are willing to slow down our tech pace in order to build up cash and rush an army. If we can get just 1 city we can rush units every other turn for a fairly cheap price. Rushing every other turn easily allows us to still research at a decent clip. If we can manage 2 cities on an island, then we could rush a unit every turn for a decent price--quite quickly building up an army capable of smashing the AI.

Furthermore, if there happen to be 2 AIs on an island, that works very much to our advantage. We can have one smack the other, and then after some damage has been done come in with our armies to clean up one of them, and then proceed to the other in its weakened state. This allows to kill AIs with a much smaller unit base than would otherwise be required (and it slows down their tech pace!).

Anyways, even if such wars stall after a time, if we can manage to kill some AIs it will still be well worth it in the amount of time we'll save later. It'll cost us our tech pace some, sure, but we should still have the entire IA, most-or-less, to ramp back up and beat them to flight by a goodly margin, especially since they'll have been warring the entire time (and we'll keep it that way)! I think it's definately worth a shot if we manage early enough contact with the other civs.

Build up a military. Gift most of our cities to an AI. We then take them back, and get a couple cities on their island for peace. That's our foothold, and we can cash-rush units there. This may be a great idea, it might not, but we aren't gonna take the laurel from Team klarius or Team Obormot if we go the way they do. It's a crazy idea, just crazy enough to work.
The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace, as will the unit capacity if we're going to be cash-rushing units on enemy islands. We'll be bulking up the military (with cash) using a goverment that severely punishes having a military (by decreasing cash flow). Rather a Catch-22 situation, and it will delay our progress towards Flight rather significantly. Simultaneously, due to RNG, there's a good probability some facilities in the gifted towns will be destroyed upon recapture, further slowing us down.

That said, it is, as you say, so crazy it might just work. A side benefit will be any captured lands will essentially become specialist farms to jack up unit capacity, gold, and science. I rather like this idea as it also won't make the game a snooze-fest for 3 ages. :goodjob: I'm in favor of at least trying it.

Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...

The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace, as will the unit capacity if we're going to be cash-rushing units on enemy islands. We'll be bulking up the military (with cash) using a goverment that severely punishes having a military (by decreasing cash flow). Rather a Catch-22 situation, and it will delay our progress towards Flight rather significantly.

If we can take out some AIs, though, it'll be worth it. Furthermore, we won't need that big of an army if we do it right... certainly not enough to really severely hurt our economy. By then our cities will be reasonably sized, affording sufficient free units, especially given that we'll likely have few workers.


Simultaneously, due to RNG, there's a good probability some facilities in the gifted towns will be destroyed upon recapture, further slowing us down.

It is my view that this would best be done by gifting cities built expressively built for gifting to the AI, built in an ICS formation. This allows easy reconquest, blockading of the cities if we need to prolong to the war in order to harass them enough to get some cities, and also means that we don't lose anything valuable. It is my opinion that we shouldn't be gifting most of our nation, just cities we build for the purpose...


That said, it is, as you say, so crazy it might just work. A side benefit will be any captured lands will essentially become specialist farms to jack up unit capacity, gold, and science. I rather like this idea as it also won't make the game a snooze-fest for 3 ages. :goodjob: I'm in favor of at least trying it.

Indeed, it is well worth the effort if it has a good chance of paying off.


Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...

This whole plan works basically on that assumption, yes. We're unlikely to get contact with any other AIs early enough for this plan to work if one of them doesn't start on our island. They simply wouldn't send any boats over in time, most likely.

The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace,

If we do this, I think we won't even need flight, we'll kill every AI like this. Even in republic, we won't have a big unit support bill.

I've got the save
Opened file and moved scout - have saved to give others input
2 BGs revealed accessable from desert tile -> poss 4 turn settler factory
Do I go ahead with this or settle as intended on plains so can immed access sheep - I vote former.
Its late here in Oz so I'm going to bed - will play my turns in approx 10 hours
? how many turns should I do
I await any replies

I'm with you. The BG is too valuable to give up.

Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...
This rule was introduced in the last GOTM to try to stop random leader generation giving some teams a Wonder in the early game that could skew the results by pure luck. A similar reason led to the removal of SGLs in the C3C saves for all GOTM games. It isn't specific to this game, and shouldn't be interpreted to mean anything about this game's setup.

4 turn settler factory isn't possible, but we can get a 5,6 and 7 turn factory.

I say go to the dessert. 2 BGs, a hill, lose a dessert, fresh water.

A four-turn factory is possible at sizes 5-6 by working 2 FPs, the lambs and the two BGs. Add a plains at size 6. Shields:

Turn 1: 6 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP)
Turn 2: 8 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 2 (forest)
Turn 3: 7 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 1 (plains)
Turn 4: 9 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 1 (plains) + 2 (forest)

There's a lot of work to do in order to set this up so we will probably require a second worker after the granary is finished.

Is anyone up to making a spreadsheet to figure out how to get the factory up as fast as possible? I could make a stab at it, but it won't be until I get home from work this evening (Eastern Time). If you are willing to wait for that, please open the GH immediately in case you get a worker. The worker should move to the plains this turn, I suppose.

On the subject of scouts, I see no reason to build another. We will just have this one island to survey and the one we have should finish quite quickly.

Andronicus, I'm sure you know this but just to be sure... next turn, build the city, set research to CB, open the GH and switch to Alpha. That way we make sure that, if we get a tech, it won't be the cheapest one.

Oh, without looking at your math I know you're right. I remembered trying to get a 4-turn settler factory in one of my previous games, and there were three tiles with 3 food and no shields. A 4-turn wasn't possible, and I thought this was the same situation, but I forgot about the lamb.

Yep. The lambs makes all the difference. It would not be possible with three FPs. I assume that there is no discussion left on the issue. We are going to the desert square.

A couple of thoughts:

The existence of the settler factory makes it a lot more likely that we will get the Slingshot (more cities = more research).

It also makes it less costly to go after the Colossus. If it turns out that we are alone on this island and if we can find a decent location to build it, I say we should go for it... perhaps even in New York. We have a pre-build.

I pm'd AlanH and asked him if it would be OK for me to play the game through to the point where the goody hut is opened in order to see what kind of spreadsheet to calculate. He said that it would be fine. If there are no objections, I will make the opening moves I suggested above.

To reiterate:
worker to plains
settler to desert
build city
set research to CB
open hut

Assuming there are no objections, I will do this a little more than 3 hours from the time of this post and then put together a spreadsheet based on the result.

CB? What use do we have for temples?

None. The objective is get another tech when opening the GH. Switch to Alpha afterwards.

Ok, good thinking. I'm not smart enough to have thought of that.

Well, I founded the city and opened the GH.

[party] :band: :banana: We have a worker :banana: :band: [party]

There's another goody hut in view. I'll post the save and the spreadsheet in a couple of hours.

OK. Here's the save and my attempt at a spreadsheet. There is zero overrun anywhere. Although it takes a fair amount of time to reach size 3, size 5 comes just four rounds later. The granary is done in 3150BC and the first settler is built in 2710BC. In between, we could either make two warriors or, if we learn the tech, an archer.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/OWN8start.JPG

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Own_SG0008_3950_BC.SAV)

Edit: I left the research on CB @50% science. This, of course, is nonsensical. I suggest that it be left on CB until the second GH is opened (at 0%). Then 100% on Alpha. We will eat through the cash reserve once the granary is built.

@abegweit: When I repiled to your query I said you should upload the file after you had made your moves in order to hand off to the next player. It should be uploaded using the SGOTM procedure, not just attached to your thread. Sorry if this was not clear from my PM.

@ Abegweit - well done :goodjob:

When I logged on this morning I saw your spreadsheet first and wonderred how you could mistake worker 2 starting from 3950 - I had done one building worker first and utilising irrigated FP in first 10 turns resulting in growth and worker on turn 9 - then I read your wonderful discovery of volunteer worker from the hut deciding to give our little project a head start.

BTW - I didnt know that researching a tech alterred what you can pop from huts (I did know about settler / workers and building / having a settler though) - learnt something useful already, thanks.
Re your spreadsheet - did I interpret it correctly that granary will be built the same turn we grow - wont that mean an empty granary - or am I misreading.

Presume I'm to complete my turns - note other teams are playing first player through to 3000BC - if OK I will do same.

I've PMed Alan H to ascertain whether I can play on fron Abegweit's save above or whether it has to first be uploaded to submissions page and I then download it back - sorry about the delay, still hope to complete my turns later today

Things looking good with extra worker and prospect of 4 turn settler factory :D - am I suspicious of lurking traps? - definitely.

OK I have uploaded Abegweit's save as advised by Alan H and will play remainder of my turns shortly - should be able to post in about 3 hours

sorry about the delay - made silly mistake misclicking and are awaiting ruling whether allowed to reload autosave and replay my worker move (recall a staffer advising someone in a GOTM that this is OK as not trying to test player's ability to click / type). The 4 turn settler factory is progressing well but if cant replay worker move it will be a set back.

Well the ruling was I had to go with my mismove - that stuffs up the schedule for 4 turn settler factory and particuarly my plan for granary before expansion to size 3.

However that plan would not have worked as we have the first presence of raging barbs :eek: . As appears below a barb will prevent the worker roading this place and will likely sack Washington which may lose our shields to granary. The best outcome I can see is to rush the granary (which we can do with 1 pop loss. I'm taking a break for 60 min - have to get dinner - any thoughts appreciated. I have only a few more moves before uploading to submissions @ 3000BC

- not sure how much I should take decisions as I go or seek other's input - guess I'm going with the way I would prefer other's to play - that is give other team members a chance to have their say if they are online.

You probably should have chopped a forest to speed up the granary, but no biggie.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC3000_01.SAV

3000BC reached. I stuffed up a worker move :blush: , then rushed the granary in case barb sacked Washington. We have to live with some turns of whip unhappiness. Barb is sitting just outside our area - I have built an archer with intention of clearing barbs. I think we will need further warriors for MP and clearing fog in advance of workers and future settlers - I would really hate us to lose workers or settlers.

Question for next player - do we get out settler soon or wait for 4 turn factory to be ready (still req work 1 remaining BG (mine and road) and complete current FP - irr req. Make sure to leave remaining forest intact! We need it or mined plain for factory. I was also planning W1 to road and irr river plain as more commerce using that than current avail irr plain. We grow to size 3 next turn.

Scout has continued exploring north where we have a lot of room - also our only lux so far on island - so we need a look to our east ? archer or should he remain for MP duty? I suspect scout will succumb to barbs at some stage - otherwise not worth paying thew support cost once has explored all to our north (long hike to get back and I suspect there is not much else to our east.

Demographics reveals there are Roman, Greek, Chinese, English and Viking towns in top 5 - dont know who 6th oponent is yet.

Turn log
4000BC
Sc -> S,S to look for BGs, find the magical 2 req for 4 turn settler factory. Settling desert now appears best option.
Settler -> S
W -> SE to plains
3950BC
Washington built on desert
Research set to CB @ 0%
Sc -> SW, S - pops worker (W2) from GH :)
W1 - irr; W2 -> N
3900BC
Sc ->W, NW
W2 ->NW to BG
3850BC
W2 - mine
Sc pops WC from GH - science switched to alphabet @100%
3800NC
Sc -> N,N
W1 - road
3750BC
Sc -> N,N
3700BC
W1 -> NE to lambs
Sc ->E,N
3650BC
Sc ->NE,N
W1 - irr; W2 - road
3600BC
Sc -> NW pops CB from GH
3550BC
Sc -> N
W2 -> N - thought I was moving scout - planned to move E to chop forest :sad:
3500BC
W2 -> E; W1 - road
Sc -> E
IT expand
3450BC
lux slider to 20%
W2 -> S
Sc -> NW - pops local map from GH - sees jungle and dyes to north
3400BC
W2 - chop
W1 -> SW, W to FP
Sc -> N
3350BC
W1 - irr
Sc -> N
3300BC
Sc -> N,N
3200BC
Barb appears near W2 :eek:
- fearful Washington may be sacked losing 40 shields -> rush granary
W2 retreats N to Washington
Sc -> W,N
3200BC
W2 -> NE,E to forest
W1 - road
Sc -> W,N
granary -> archer
3150BC
W2 - chop
Sc -> N
IT grow size 2
3100BC
lux to 40%
Sc -> E
W1 -> NW to 2nd FP
3050BC
W1 - road
Sc -> N,E
3000BC
Archer built
- no unit moves or MM done this turn

You probably should have chopped a forest to speed up the granary, but no biggie.

I did 1 chop - considerred 2nd, but my spreadsheet showed just as quick to mine 2nd BG first later chopping forest for archer - well I ended up chopping forest for archer - but we are down 1 pop with unhappiness issue and still need a little work to get 4-turn factory. Should be do-able if barbs not too bad - I worry about them though

Allright good choice in rushing the granary.

No SGOTM would be complete without at least one screw-up :( This one's down to me.

The Bug

Those who played SGOTM7 may recall that the C3C Differential Naval Movement implementation was faulty. Ships still had the strange C3C default of ignoring movement cost on Sea tiles, so they treated sea as ocean, and were able to surf around the offshore waters at speed. Well, guess who forgot to get this fixed before SGOTM8 :blush:

The Impact

"Why would Hydrophobic Americans with no boats care?", I hear someone ask. Well the AI will probably have a point of view about your plans for world conquest, and their fast-moving ships could be a source of later-game problems for you.

The Cure

I therefore propose to edit the C3C team saves to correct this potential problem and restore the Sea movement cost to 2 instead of 1. To do this I need you to pause your play after you upload your next file, and PM to let me know it is available for editing. I'll endeavour to fix it, and let you know, within 24 hours so that you can continue your game. If your current save on the server has not been downloaded and played then let me know and I can, of course, fix it immediately.

II apologise for this oversight and any resulting inconvenience.

In SGOTM7 that was a bug? I thought that was designed to slow the AIs boat moving thru the channels.

Differential Naval Movement slows boats down in Coast and speeds them up in Ocean. There's an article on Differential Naval Movement linked from the SGOTM Reference Thread.

The bug gave boats the same higher speed in Sea as they have in Ocean.

I haven't downloaded the file yet--I just got home today--so it can be edited before I download it... PM sent.

I've uploaded the fixed file. Play on, Own :thumbsup:

I've had a chance to think about our current situation

We could have a 4 turn settler factory up in about 8 turns depending on barbs - I think we need our capital churning out settlers ASAP and continuing until our local plains area is filled with our core towns.
These towns will need to provide the military to keep barbs off the towns, improvements as well as settlers / workers

We appear to have not much other than mountains to our east - this needs to be explored to confirm, then with warriors stationed as lookouts barbs should not appear. To our north the island is quite large for archipelago small map, but beyond the mountains there is mainly jungle. (incl dyes)
My thoughts are we should station warriors on these mountains to prevent barbs appearing (they will still occur in jungle though), when plains fully settled we need a road over the mountains to dyes. We could plop settlers down on jungle in ICS pattern - these will be totally corrupt so can build workers (to clear jungle, then irrigate), then support scientists to boost our science+++ (eg first 8-10 cities in core, next 10-15 hire 1 scientist each -> extra 30-45 science per turn) Our capital will be able to crank out 20 settlers in 80 turns once our factory is running. Also more cities will allow us to support much bigger military.

Given the size of our island we can expect quite a bit of AI settlement - they will also need to battle the jungle and barbs. Once their cities are sufficiently established we should be able to take the battle to them on our island with the goal of getting cities on other islands in peace deals - I think it is worth waiting until these cities are big enough that taking them hurts the IA enough to give us more in peace deal.

Overall, it seems we will not have a long peaceful builders game - although I think we need to be careful whom we ally and whom we fight. So far no contacts.

If we're doing to capture our own cities gambit, then we should use horses, because I remembered, the AI don't get free garrison like they do in culture flips. If we ICS, we can get bigger rewards. Our core only needs to be productive cash wise.

Do I play from Andronicus's save?

If we're doing to capture our own cities gambit, then we should use horses, because I remembered, the AI don't get free garrison like they do in culture flips. If we ICS, we can get bigger rewards. Our core only needs to be productive cash wise.

Do I play from Andronicus's save?

:confused: I thought IstariAsuka up next on roster

I thought next up player downloads save from submission page dont they? (but since this is my 1st SGOTM I may have misunderstood)

Do I play from Andronicus's save?

The next player plays from the link in Andonicus' turn log. That points to the save on the server. He correclty followed the procedure I listed in the Maintenance Thread (Please Read It!).

You MUST downlad the latest save from the server to play forward at each handover. This is a rule of the SGOTM, and it's even more important this time as that's the save I've applied the bug fix to. Your server saves all have URLs beginning http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_ then a date like BC3000, and they end in .SAV

If we're doing to capture our own cities gambit, then we should use horses, because I remembered, the AI don't get free garrison like they do in culture flips. If we ICS, we can get bigger rewards. Our core only needs to be productive cash wise.

Do I play from Andronicus's save?
No, I thought I was going to play from the save.

I have the save, I'll take a look at it in a few hours and report back here that all is well, as well as some thoughts as to what I will be doing.

Ok, I can't play right now, so skip me.

Let's get a roster order first.

Andronicus- You're up first when the saves are available.
IstariAsuka
Symphony D.
Own
stagnate
Abeqweit
voe

I thought this was the roster. Obviously subject to next player avail.
I've played, IstatiAsuka has save and Symphony D. was due to be next

AlanH told me to go, and I didn't check the roster until I started playing. Big oops on my part.

Oops! When I said "Play on, Own", I meant "Play on, Team Own". I have no desire or intention to mess up your roster. That's your job :mischief:

No biggie.

Alright, sorry it's taken me a while, yesterday was a bad day.

Anyways, I'm thinking move W2 S, then SW to BG in order to work it, as that is the last tile we need to have our factory up and running.

In the meantime I'm building a warrior rather than another archer, to provide cheaper MP.

I'm moving the archer next turn to protect the worker from possible barb encroachment.

How many turns should I play, 20?

Alright, I'm on my 3rd turn, and I've met China up north.

China has Alphabet, as well as Bronze Working and The Wheel. They have neither pottery nor Ceremonial Burial.

They will give me Alphabet + all their money (39gp) for Ceremonial Burial. They are not interested in Pottery, and so I can't maneuver into getting us a 2 tech for 2 tech trade.

I think I should take this deal. What do you guys thing? I assume we should take it and still make for writing, then discuss the situation further at that point.

I will save the game here and await discussion about what to do next.

BTW, China appears to have but one city, and that with only 1 population, as there % population is 6, while ours is 20 with 3 pop. This means that they just built their first settler.

Edit: Oh, and about 5 squares east of our city on a mountain there is a Goody Hut. I haven't had a chance to get that yet, however, as the archer is busy ensuring that the barb neither attacks our worker nor our capitol.

@IstariAsuka
I would be wary of popping the goody hut with archer - with raging barbs I think the odds of popping 3 barb warriors is high - maybe wait until our defences are a little stronger?
I agree with another warrior next and until size 5 (if use lambs and 2 FPs will grow every 2nd turn)
we need SE BG mined as you propose - I intended roading to that BG as it allows our units faster access that direction (and back to city if barbs appear from other direction), once BG mined and Washington to size 5 it should be all out settler factory in the capital.
I cant see any option for better trade than you propose, but then my trading skills suck - we may be able to use the pottery trade later if civ assist shows the Chinese have a worker - depriving them (they are industrious) would be huge.

Turns are progressing nicely.

It is time to decide where to place City #2.

This is what it currently looks like. W1 on the plains can move somewhere to road in time for the settler, but the question is where to found the 2nd city (and future) cities. Anyone have suggestions, or perhaps a dot map?

[EDIT] I kind of like this:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Citplcmap.jpg

Green Dot can be moved 1NE to gain a forest at the cost of building on one. Maximum costal and water usage, shouldn't be any wasted tiles. I rather like Pink Dot as a next city location myself. FPs and some plains to mine.

EDIT: I'm going with what I originally thought up for the first 4 cities, I'll leave the NW area to the next players.

After finding out Red Dot has no water, here we go:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Cityplcmap.jpg

I'm kinda blah about Teal Dot not being on the river but it's probably smarter than ICSing it.

So... with two AIs on our continent, still want to be a Republic with minimal units?! :p

The save is located here:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC2110_01.SAV

Sorry for saving in 2110 instead of 2150, but there were a couple things I felt it important to do that turn before passing the game on. I hope it's OK with everybody that I played ~20 turns? I never got an answer to that.

Anyways, on to a turn log. I'll only post the most salient points here, as I don't think boring you with every worker move is necessary.



3000:
Moved archer and worker towards BG to get it mined just in time for growth to size 5 Settler Factory.

2900:
Met China.
Traded Ceremonial Burial and 1gpt to China for Alphabet and 39gp. Saved 9 turns on Alphabet. The 1gpt, though unnecessary, was to make them not want to war with me (which is a good thing, because lately a warrior of theirs has been kinda wandering around, seemingly trying to get to undefended cities. If not for the 1gpt he may have just simply attacked fortified cities). I felt that 20gp was a small price to pay for a more peaceful, fast expansion.

2850:
China sends out their first settler.
Met Greeks.

2710:
Settler Factory comes online.
China obtains Pottery, so I sell it to the Greeks for 31gp befoe China can. (I hadn't sold Pottery to China before, because they only had like 4 gp.)

2590:
Archer attacks the barbarian who has been camping out this entire time to the south. Archer wins and promotes to veteran.

2250:
New barbarian threatens a worker. I send both MP from Capitol to protect worker.

2150:
Barbarian attacks, killing one of the warriors without taking any damage. It's a good thing I sent both warriors as defense.
The worker they were defending finishes his road, and I retreat both the worker and the warrior to the capitol.
City 04 is built, popping the NE hut, which contained 25gp.

2110:
Game handed off.
Settler will be produced next turn.
Archer is heading towards 03 to protect it from the approaching barbarian.
NW worker is to build a road in the square he is currently standing on, so that the future city to be built NW of the mountain will be connected right away once built.

Sorry for saving in 2110 instead of 2150, but there were a couple things I felt it important to do that turn before passing the game on. I hope it's OK with everybody that I played ~20 turns? I never got an answer to that.


See SGOTM Maintenance Reference Thread post of Alan H
Quote:
Several team players seem to be wondering about the lengths of turn sets.

It's entirely up to the teams to agree this, and the submission system will accept any save file, at any date. As guidance, however, the typical Succession Game uses 20 turns for the first set, then 10 turns per set. When you reach the later stages of the game, when turns get longer, you may choose to reduce this or give your players more flexible guidance about how long they play before handing off.

For reference, if you use the above guidline, the turnsets will end at:

4000 BC (turn 0, start)
3000 BC (turn 20)
2550 BC (turn 30)
2150 BC (turn 40)
1750 BC (turn 50)
1500 BC (turn 60)
1250 BC (turn 70)
1000 BC (turn 80)
750 BC (turn 90)
... then 5 turn sets of 200 years until 250 AD (turn 140)
... then 5 turn sets of 100 years until 1250 AD (turn 240)
... then 10 turn sets of 50 years until 1750 AD (turn 340)
... then 10 turn sets of 20 years until 1950 AD (turn 440) -
... then 10 turn sets of 10 years until 2050 AD (turn 540, and the bitter end)
End quote

I dont have a problem with what you've done but perhaps we should have some agreement as a team on protocol ;)

So... with two AIs on our continent, still want to be a Republic with minimal units?! :p

Who says we have to have minimal units?
When our cities grow in size and number we will be able to support a good sized army :D .

This finding has surprised me - I thought we would be isolated on our own island. Claiming the dyes is important. Also deciding how to use the AI presence on "our" island. I believe war must wait until we have REXed sufficiently to switch to an offensive. All that jungle will make it slow, hence my liking for ICSing jungle with reduced amount of roading req to get to China and Greece. I wonder if the AI will beat us to it and settle the jungle for us. I suspect they will be poor at roading it.

Some thoughts re city placement

How about blocking the choke point to the north?
Alt placement would be 1 tile SW.

NE city could be worker factory - city (+2F, +1S),4irrFPs (+4F),mined thingume to north(+2S),irr desert(-1F,+1S) giving +10F,+8S every 2 turns with extra 2S from forest on growth

Who says we have to have minimal units?
When our cities grow in size and number we will be able to support a good sized army :D .

This finding has surprised me - I thought we would be isolated on our own island. Claiming the dyes is important. Also deciding how to use the AI presence on "our" island. I believe war must wait until we have REXed sufficiently to switch to an offensive. All that jungle will make it slow, hence my liking for ICSing jungle with reduced amount of roading req to get to China and Greece. I wonder if the AI will beat us to it and settle the jungle for us. I suspect they will be poor at roading it.

I agree entirely. I didn't expect AIs on our island either. I still believe that contact off island will be obtained easily though. We need to station some units need the lands to the west.

We also need to claim the wine too :devil:

There is lots of good land for ICSing. Our capital needs to spitting out settlers for a long long time. Plenty of workers are needed too.

One thing which needs to be decided quickly is the question of whether we make a run at the Colossus. If we do, O2 looks like the best site for it. Unfortunately, no place looks very good. In view of that I personally would abandon the idea.

Andronicus:
What you posted for city placement is actually almost exactly what I was working from. It's the best we can do, anyways.

Oh, and by the time I saw that post in the Maintainance thread I had already almost finished my turns. Sorry.

Oh, and I doubt the NE city can be a settler factory due to corruption. You say it will have 2 extra shields, but that's without corruption, yes? It'd be down 2 shields with corruption. It could do it every 6 turns, however.

Expansionistic civs will never pop barbs from huts.

City placement looks good to me, question is when do we want to look towards conquest? It'd be nice to avoid chinese riders, but depends on our progress.

If we can place a unit on the chokepoint, and fortify there, we may be able to get a war going between greece and china that will slow both of them down without risking much on our side.

@stagnate

The choke will be useful for defence but we will want to build north of it before the attack. We should claim as much of the jungle between us and the Chinese as possible especially, as Andronicus said, the dyes.

Towards the end of our REX, we should move to the attack. Before deciding how to do it (and exactly when), we need know where the iron and horses are.

I'm not really worried about Riders; the AI doesn't know how to use them.

A war between the Chinese and Greeks would be a good idea but not until we know some off-island civs. One thing we do not want to do is to slow down the research rate.

Hey guys, check it out.

Even 9 turns behind we're still ahead of every team but Wacken and Obormot (Though Chunky looks to be overtaking us). :goodjob:

Hopefully we can keep this pace up... :king:

http://narya.lenharth.org/~philipl/Civ/SGOTM/SGOTM8_Score_1750BC.jpg

Andronicus:

Oh, and I doubt the NE city can be a settler factory due to corruption. You say it will have 2 extra shields, but that's without corruption, yes? It'd be down 2 shields with corruption. It could do it every 6 turns, however.

Your right - I neglected corruption; there is an alt - use forest in place of irr desert for extra 1 shield per turn whilst mining desert to get extra shields on growth - I'm not certain whether corruption would then leave us with 10 shields or not.

Edit -City 04 at same distance has 25% corruption so this probably wont work out :blush: - may have to go for 3 turn workers

Expansionistic civs will never pop barbs from huts.

If we can place a unit on the chokepoint, and fortify there, we may be able to get a war going between greece and china that will slow both of them down without risking much on our side.

I agree with placing a unit (and later a defended city) on choke point, but I'm uncertain there will be much benefit to war now when we are still so far away (all that jungle and mountains between us)

Re GH popping - I thought it was just if you used a scout you didnt pop a barb, but if you popped with a military unit then a barb is just as likely with expansionist civ. Please correct me if I'm wrong :confused:

Hey guys, check it out.

Even 9 turns behind we're still ahead of every team but Wacken and Obormot (Though Chunky looks to be overtaking us). :goodjob:

Hopefully we can keep this pace up... :king:


Looking good - wonder where we'd be if I hadnt rushed the granary, looking back I think this was a mistake as city may not have been in barbs view

@stagnate

Towards the end of our REX, we should move to the attack. Before deciding how to do it (and exactly when), we need know where the iron and horses are.

I'm not really worried about Riders; the AI doesn't know how to use them.

A war between the Chinese and Greeks would be a good idea but not until we know some off-island civs. One thing we do not want to do is to slow down the research rate.

I agree - there may yet be a question of if we get iron and/or horses

I'm not worried about riders either, we'll attack them before they get them I hope. We should trade territory maps and if they have island cities, we should get them for peace then redeclare war.

Looking good - wonder where we'd be if I hadnt rushed the granary, looking back I think this was a mistake as city may not have been in barbs view
Whether it was a mistake or not it didn't set us that far back.

Besides, we're all gonna make mistakes, so let's all be nice to each other and to ourselves when they happen. :)

Oh, and I'm pretty sure expansionist NEVER gets barbs from huts, even if they pop it with a non-scout unit.

BTW, something to ponder: is it worth building a temple in 02 in order to pop the goody hut? I think I'll look up probabilites of popping various things on emperor. Too bad settler popping is disabled...

Edit:

Emperor - Expansionist
City - 8.3
Tech - 25
Gold - 16.7
Settler - 16.7
Map - 16.7
Warrior - 16.7

With a 25% chance of tech it may be worth doing it in a bit. Do goody huts disappear? Or do they stay until the MA?

I actually think a settler wouldn't help at all, considering the rate we'll be producing settlers.

I actually think a settler wouldn't help at all, considering the rate we'll be producing settlers.
Well, see, if settler popping was turned on, and we got one, we'd have a city on a DIFFERENT continent. Which would be very very useful indeed. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Anyways, I updated my post with probabilities. 25% chance of a tech ain't bad.

Do goody huts disappear?

Only if an AI pops one. How would we get a city on a different continent?

Only if an AI pops one. How would we get a city on a different continent?
Well, with settler popping turned off we can't, unless we happen to get very lucky and the hut contains a city (8.3% chance). So, while possible still, it's unlikely.

Anyways, Symphony D. is up next, yes?

Are we moving to 10 turn sets, or what? We should finalize this now.

Yes, 10 turnsets sounds good. I've always thought the city you pop is in the square you pop it in from, but if not I guess it could go to the other continent.

Got it, will try and play tonight - if not, then definitely tomorrow (figures I come up in this and another SG at the same time).

I've always thought the city you pop is in the square you pop it in from, but if not I guess it could go to the other continent.

It is in the square you pop it from but... If your cultural boundaries expand to include a goody hut on another continent, that will pop it. You can get a city on the other continent that way. Or a unit which could be used to explore. I don't have the game with me right now so I forget the exact configuration. As I recall, there is a GH on the island to the SW. Can we pop it this way?

Edit: I see I should have read the whole thread before jumping in. This comment is mostly redundant. Anyway, IMO, building the temple is well worth it. If we get real lucky, we get a city but anything would be worthwhile. There's no rush to do so though.

Goody huts stay around until popped. You can't get a tech unless you are in the Ancient Era.

TURNLOG:
Turn 01 / 2110 BC - First dilemna is the barb threatening 03. Doing some combat calc checks it seems to be a better option to attack. Do so, and the barb is felled with no damage to the Archer. IBT Washington completes a Settler, starts another.
Turn 02 / 2070 BC - Reviewing both my own dot map and Andronicus' and weighing our options, I decide to send the Settler to what was Blue Dot on mine (SE of Washington). My thinking is since the area beyond there is fairly mountainous and it's a choke, it will likely be a barb problem in the future and plugging it up now seems somewhat prudent. Plus the road network to there is already completed. I'm not very high on the idea of producing lots of Regular Warriors right now, especially with only Washington having high population, and no real threats close nearby. I think emphasizing Barracks might be better since if we're going to pay for troops they should at least be Veterans. Only 03 can do it in a decent time period for now though, so only it gets changed.
Turn 03 / 2030 BC - I realize we can turn Lux down to 30% while Washington is size 5. We break even on GPT costs. Some unit movement occurs.
Turn 04 / 1990 BC - 05 founded. Unit movement onto the mountain near 05 reveals the presence of Gems.
Turn 05 / 1950 BC - Writing down to 1 turn left. Adjust Research to 10%, make 8 GPT and still finish next turn. Check of tech progress amongst AIs via diplo shows both China and Greece have Writing. IBT learn Writing, Washington completes Settler, starts on Warrior for MP and so that we don't sink below Size 3 while making Settlers. Start Philosophy at 70% initially, due in 15. Spot a Barb horsemen in the mountains.
Turn 06 / 1910 BC - As Washington is size 4, recalibrate to 80% Research and 20% Lux, with Philo now due in 12 at -1 GPT. Change the spare citizen in 03 to a Scientist, making Philo due in 10 at -1 GPT. IBT another barb horseman appears, heading for 05.
Turn 07 / 1870 BC - Move Archer to block mountain pass. IBT kill 1x barb Horseman, Archer promotes to Elite. Washington completes Warrior, starts on Settler.
Turn 08 / 1830 BC - Adjust Lux to 10%, leave Research at 80%, break even at 0 GPT.
Turn 09 / 1790 BC - Adjust Lux to 20%, at -1 GPT. MM Washington a little to grow in 2 and complete Settler in 4, rather than complete Settler in 3 and grow in 4. Extra shields from the growth should yield same net effect without the commerce hit from dipping to a really low pop level. Gamble on killing the remaining barb Horseman, only lose 1 HP.
Turn 10 / 1750 BC - We're at Turn 50. Some unit movment. Workers are making a mine near Washington to serve as a forest equivilent for more shields in the future. Worker up north is making a road for the remaining two sites south of the mountains. China has Math, otherwise status quo. Save and upload.

NOTES:
Firaxis Score is 169 as of 1750 BC, and our graph is starting to parallel that of Wacken some, which is good considering how insanely far ahead they are. Hopefully my builds haven't made a mess of things, and we seem on a good track to start going North.

SCREEN:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Mapala.JPG

Should probably decide where to put 07 since we've got some slightly different positions, though I don't think it really matters. 08 will obviously be at the choke. Gems can be seen in the bottom-right.

SAVE GAME LINK (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC1750_01.SAV)

Well, I suppose we have been slowed by a couple turns, since the Settler Factory got messed up, but it looks like it can be brought up running again at this point, since Washington is at 5 pop again.

Own are you still unable to play? If I don't hear from you in the next ~10 hours I'll play through.

What are our plans for the philo tech? My rankings:
1) Trade for CoL and get Repub
2) Trade up to poly and get Monarchy
3) Trade for Math and get Currency

If those aren't available or I can't trade for them .... math? Poly?

Things are looking good :goodjob:

I'm pleased to see you're building more workers. Am I right in seeing we currently have 3? With our 7th and 8th towns to be settled in the next turn set, I think we should give priority to those tiles which we need using soon and those that access us to useful places (ie luxes, the AI and future settlement)
Currently Washington has all the tiles worked it needs for its settler factory which I would envision lasting until we are out of despotism. I dont think we should chop its remaining forest until we need the shields for lib or market.
02 req 3 grass to be roaded and mined, 03, 04 & 05 similarly have unworked / partially worked grass.
Could one of those 2 mining workers chop 03's forest to speed barracks or its next archer?
A road to the gems and colony (but must protect it against barbs), would be high on my priorities.
06 req irr plains - I'd prioritise the plains on the river for extra commerce (for an archipelago map we seem to have a very generous amount of rivers near our starting location - we need to use them).
We ought to use that river soon with our next city to the NE which will req irr FPs and working the olives (mine, as plenty of food from irr FPs, but this city will be low on shields)
Any lazy workers after all that can be put on duty to road across the mountain to the jungle!
Yep, we need a lot of workers :D .

Regards research - if (and that's a big if) we get phil first the only real no-no IMO is MM (dont think we have HBR anyway). I wouldnt place high value on poly as I dont believe monarchy is the way to go (although if we want HG to help our GA we should consider a pre build, so my prefs would be 1) Rep if we can trade for CoL, 2) Currency (prefer constr but dont have IW? so would need 2 trades via big picture) 3) Lit ->earlier libs, some border expansion and not prioritised by AI so trade opportunity.

Another thought :p - with settlers spewing out rapidly our FP should be avail in not distant future ? prebuild at 04 or 05.

Edit
PS I have some concerns about potential barb build up to the north - I wonder if warrior in 02 might be more useful guarding the choke. Would hate to lose a settler. This would also be lookout for any wandering AI.

@Andronicus Agreed totally. We need workers.

I don't have access to the save. Do our friends have any contacts? I assume not.

About research: We need to think about trying to get the republic slingshot. Missing that would be a huge setback and it's still not impossible.

At the point we are right now, I suggest that we research Philosophy full out and then stop when we are one turn from it. When CoL appears, finish Philo and trade through the big picture. Then take Republic as our free tech. Ideally, of course, CoL would appear before we get Philo but if it doesn't we should take the risk and wait for it to do so. The potential gain of this course is far greater than the risk. Missing the free tech is no big deal if all we get out of it is Map making or some such thing. Getting Republic is a huge boon.

@Andronicus Agreed totally. We need workers.

I don't have access to the save. Do our friends have any contacts? I assume not.

About research: We need to think about trying to get the republic slingshot. Missing that would be a huge setback and it's still not impossible.

At the point we are right now, I suggest that we research Philosophy full out and then stop when we are one turn from it. When CoL appears, finish Philo and trade through the big picture. Then take Republic as our free tech. Ideally, of course, CoL would appear before we get Philo but if it doesn't we should take the risk and wait for it to do so. The potential gain of this course is far greater than the risk. Missing the free tech is no big deal if all we get out of it is Map making or some such thing. Getting Republic is a huge boon.

I disagree with this course of action. The AIs almost invariably go for philosophy before Code of Laws, in my experience. If we wait around for someone to get CoL, someone will finish philosophy first and we will not get a free tech out of it at all. I think that we should research CoL ourselves and then philosophy, in the hopes we'll make it, or just research philosohpy now and pop CoL (if no AIs manages to get it by then, which is very very likely). Sure, it's not ideal, but waiting around 1 turn from completing philosophy is, in my opinion, a very bad idea indeed.

Philosophy is about the last priority for the AI. Not quite as low as Literature, but close. I would have preferred to go for CoL followed by Philo too but, right or wrong, that's not what happened.

One free tech is small beer. Good trading can make up for the loss. Snagging one of the expensive government techs is a very different story.

I'm sorry about the settler factory guys, didn't pay enough attention to the thread and was sort of in a bit of a rush to get the turns done before heading out of town. Won't happen again. :blush:

I too have noticed the AI having somewhat of a propensity to pick Philosophy sometimes. Also, it's really not going to come much faster even if you jack research all the way up, so as is is about as fast as it goes. Waiting for CoL is a huge gamble in a lot of ways I think. But we're already rolling big so I see no real problems - we won't really be missing much anyway given our alternate choices are Polytheism (mostly worthless given our government track), Map Making (worthless), and Literature (only good for Libraries). If we lose out on the free tech it really isn't all that huge of a set back, so I'm not hugely opposed to gambling on it.

Obtaining Gems and Dyes would seem to be our second highest priority behind expansion right now so Luxury spending can be turned down for further Research.

Ok here's the run. Sorry I didn't get it to last night. Really misplayed it; got greedy and thought that I could make a run at CoL, missed it AND the free tech. Problem isn't so much whether AI would research Philo or CoL, but that there were so many other techs that they would research first (HBR, IW, MM) -- and we lost 20 turns of research.

We need to secure the horses, I think a short term war against China in ~50 turn might be a good idea.

To the next player: China is sending a settler down into our territory. I have a settler headed north to settle in the last available spot (at least last spot that won't crowd the AI). I want to lure the chinese settler so that they leave that spot open, but then cover up the choke point with a unit so they have to turn around. Let me know if you aren't sure what I'm refering to.

We can build the FP now; IIRC it doesn't matter very much where it is at (makes that city have less corruption, but for other cities it only matters that it exists, not where it is). Probably build it in O2 once the temple finishes, but it's flexible.

Link http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC1225_01.SAV

Turn 0 (1750 BC):

Cities look good, several workers due. Moved the warrior from O2 to cover the worker north.

Greece is up BW and The Wheel, China is up Math, BW and The Wheel.

Specialist scientist in O3 but not affecting the result? 5 turns for Philosophy, I'm concerned that with only two civs to trade with we might miss the window. Move science to 70% which gives us +4 and 7 turns. I'll wait to see what tech Greece is going for; if they don't get CoL I will probably go ahead and get Philosophy.

Turn 1 (1725 BC): Add taxman so Washington doesn't riot, Settler in 1.

Turn 2 (1700 BC): Washington builds Settler, starts settler. Workers by Washington finish, one moving to build road and colony on gems. Other heads to develop O3. O2 builds worker, starts temple. O2 worker heads north to road and clear jungle. Settler heads north to grab dyes (can backfill after). Luxury down to 10%.

Turn 3 (1675 BC): O4 builds worker, starts Barracks. Worker will chop forest to rush production. Scout in danger from some barbs.

Turn 4 (1650 BC): O5 builds worker, starts Temple. Worker helping road to Gems. Change O6 to a worker, 2x cities building barracks already, don't need regular troops.

Turn 5 (1625 BC): ZZZ

Turn 6 (1600 BC): Set Research to 0, +15/t.

Turn 7 (1575 BC): Washington builds Settler, starts Settler. Archer kills barbs in the SE mountains. Move warrior from O3 to go with Settler, set taxman to prevent unhappiness (barracks in 1).

Turn 8 (1550 BC): O2 riots; moving citizens and changing the lux slider but missed the effect.

Turn 9 (1525 BC): O6 builds worker, starts worker. Workers building road north have to retreat because barbs just appeared!

Turn 10 (1500 BC): Barbs growing, 2x warrior and horseman now. Dance dance :-/

Turn 11 (1475 BC): ZZZ

Turn 12 (1450 BC): O7 founded by dyes next to barb. Warrior loses to Barb, second warrior disperses the camp.

IBT lose 29g to barb, another barb appears.

Turn 13 (1425 BC): Move units north. Still stuck on Philo; nothing worth getting yet per se (could go currency but trade with China would be expensive). Nothing from Greece yet. I think we are still safe, though.

Turn 14 (1400 BC): Warrior loses to barb. Settlers moving into position. China discovered Map Making, dunno what the Greeks are up to. O3 finishes Archer starts on Archer.

Turn 15 (1350 BC): O4 finishes Barracks, starts on Archer. Scout is going to die, but acts as a good lure to let our unprotected Settler get into position. We only have a few more city spots left. Can build FP now.

Turn 16 (1325 BC): O9 founded, starts worker.

Turn 17 (1300 BC): ZZZ

Turn 18 (1275 BC): Washington builds settler, starts settler. O6 builds worker starts worker. Greece has MM, set research for Poly in 1. Math would require 290 and 10g/t which is way too much IMO. Given that, Philo freebie for CoL and rush to Republic seems like the best bet.

Turn 19 (1250 BC): Didn't get Philo tech. I really screwed up this set of turns. Trade Philo to Greece for 53g, BW, and The Wheel. Philo and 27g to China for IW. Shanghai has the only horses on the island. Greece has the only Iron, far to the north.

IBT Japan finishes the Oracle.

Turn 20 (1225 BC): ZZZ

Things are moving along
I opened the file to have a look and I have come up with some suggestions

Settler factory
Washington currently size 4 - needs to be size 5 with no food or shields in box at beginning of turn 1 of factory
This can occur next turn if switch build to archer, and work irr lambs, 2 mined BGs and mined plains - this gives 2 extra food to fill food box and 8 shields to the current 10 in box (plus 2 from forest on growth) giving 20 shield build next turn (alt to archer is wall or spear).
If anyone unsure how to use 4 turn settler factory I will spell it out (sorry for those to whom this is obvious but I think it important we all know what to do to get the max bonus from our factory - this is what allows us rapid expansion)
Work irr lambs, 2 mined BGs (sorry but 04 has to give one up), and 2 irr FPs -> 5 extra food + 6 shields every turn
At growth on turns 2 and 4 next tile is automatically allocated to max production, hence working forest (may work mined plains - dont know as this same production). After growing this has to be manually changed to the irr plains tile on turn 3
Thus
Turn 1 size 5 : work iL,mBG,mBG,iFP,iFP ->5F,6S
Turn 2 size 5 : work iL,mBG,mBG,iFP,iFP ->5F,6S+2S from forest on growth (total 10F,14S)
* switch forest tile to iPl
Turn 3 size 6 : work iL,mBG,mBG,iFP,iFP,iPl ->5F,7S (total 15F,21S)
Turn 4 size 6 : work iL,mBG,mBG,iFP,iFP,iPl -> 5F,7S +2S from forest on growth (total 10F, 30S) -> settler :)

We need at least 6 more settlers for jungle region and 1 for choke point. Archer near 06 and archer about to be produced could block Chinese spear/settler.

I have put in a dot map - southern yellow is choke city, other yellow my thoughts for remaining cities ICSed into area south of AI - once Chinese settler blocked, I believe they will likely settle purple dot - there are other potential sites, but IMO this placement maximises coast / river avoiding too close to Chinese (and provoking war before we are ready).
On this layout we only need to road 2 jungle tiles (red dots) to connect up our road network, clearing remaining jungle can wait as can extra roading as these cities will be largely corrupt. The pressing need is to connect the dyes(NW red dot)

Diplomacy
We can currently buy MM, but not maths (as China has monop)
I recommend
1) est embassies with both China and Greece
2) buy MM - from Greeks since they have little money (and we want them to have some so they can give it back to us - see below)
3) sell world map - and repeat every turn
4) renogotiate peace - we are much more powerful than Greeks and slightly more so than Chinese on power graph - hence it is likely they will pay us to continue peace(I dont see us likely to attack in the next 20 turns, but perhaps others see it differently) - unless we are ready for war in the following 20 turns we should get the AI to pay us in peace deals every 20 turns. I believe it is important that we maintain our reputation by honoring these deals (for as long as it is our interests ;) ).

Hiring taxmen and scientists
I avoid using these in the early game and in core cities as it stunts growth (all important) and limits production. I prefer to use the lux slider. This is esp important in the settler factory. Once we have a few more workers our corrupt northern cities can hire scientists.

20turn sets?
I thought the decision was 10 turns? - see post 113

Forbidden Palace
I think we should be building it now - if switch 02 from temple it will be built in 51 turns (should get quicker as grows)

Edit: Oops - I left out city between 07 and choke point.

There is one settler headed north. My goal is to sucker the chinese settler pair down to the chokepoint, but block it off at the last minute, and send our settler to settle on or near the purple dot. The AI won't build a city within 2 tiles of another city, so then our ICS build is safe and they'll start expanding overseas.

We need to be sure that we have enough military once we start the ICS, because it'll start to piss the AI off. Got washington mixed up, I was doing a 6 turn factory and didn't pay enough attention.

I misread the post about turn length.

Anything else that I can mess up? :-)

Anything else that I can mess up? :-)


I'm sure we'll all take our turns to "mess up" in some way - I thought I could have done my turnset better, but for me its a learning experience and going by the progressive scores we're not doing too bad at all.
I'm sorry if I sounded critical

Who's up next?
If Own not avail suggest we skip again making Abegweit next then voe

Whoever goes next, please remember to submit a save at 1000BC, even if you continue playing after that.

No news from Own or Abegweit - suggest voe plays if avail - whoever takes it make sure to post a "got it" so we dont have 2 people playing.

I'm back....

ALL C3C TEAMS PLEASE NOTE:

The SGOTM framework for C3C has the following changes from the out-of-the-box rules:

- aluminium will appear when you research fission instead of rocketry
- uranium will appear when you research computers instead of fission

These mods were also in SGOTM 6 and 7 as well, but didn't really affect anyone. This game could be different :D

This game could be different :D

Not for us :lol: . What are these changes supposed to do? I don't care, just curious :) .

Not for us :lol: . What are these changes supposed to do? I don't care, just curious :) .
Most likely they were not deliberate, but a sideeffect of importing sgotm resources into c3c, and the required techs got shewed due to facism, ironclads and radio tech differences.

Own - if you're avail I suggest you post a got it and play - 3 players yet to have a turn, also Abegweit and voe, but they havn't posted for a while. First of you 3 to post a got it plays, I suggest. Now over 4 days since stagnate posted last turn set. Anyone unavail for a while should post a skip me.

ALL C3C TEAMS PLEASE NOTE:

The SGOTM framework for C3C has the following changes from the out-of-the-box rules:

- aluminium will appear when you research fission instead of rocketry
- uranium will appear when you research computers instead of fission

These mods were also in SGOTM 6 and 7 as well, but didn't really affect anyone. This game could be different :D

These changes do have 1 important effect. It will not be enough to research rocketry to build F15 but require fission also to show where the aluminium is (also for modern armour, stealth planes, cruise missiles).
Unlikely we will req uranium unless we want to buuild nukes (may speed up final conquest) or uranium plants - in which case we have to research computers to find the uranium.

All this seems a long way away at the moment.

Allright, got it, but we need four, not two units to make that choke point.

Preturn- Move units in 007 and 009 around to make a choke. When the worker is complete, he can assist too until we get another warrior. On the trading subject, China is up Map Making and mathe. Greece is only up Map making. We just need to trade CoL once we're done to China for mathe, then trade math to Greece for maps.
1. Choke is underway, and moving settler to CXC away from a chinese city, and culture bombing it.
2. zzz
3. :mad: MapStat didn't alert me that Washington was gonna riot for some reason, and Washington did riot [pissed] .
9. Goody hut is 50 gold. Meh.
10. Finish CoL. Trade China CoL and 120 gold for Mysticism and mathematics.

Will have save and screenie soon.

A trick with the settler factory:
We need to irrigate the other Flood plains. We can work a forest instead of a plains when the food box is empty for 4 fpt and extra shields. Next turn, we switch the forest to a FP, making 6 fpt which makes up for initially working the forest, but we get extra shields anyway from the forest on growth. I think we get 1 extra shied from this gambit.

I didn't know what to research, so I went to republic, but someone can change that without wasting research turns.

Some notes.

1) Make sure we have good military to the north. Encroaching the chinese lands will make them hate us, and we need to make sure that we can handle an assault.

2) Start building and planning for a small scale war to take the horses. We need to secure that resource.

3) If possible try to settle the hill to the NW of our northern most city; it is the only space left that the AI will settle (they won't get within two spaces of another city) and it'd be good to grab as a jumping point to attack the horses.

Most important is the military, both to handle any inbound attacks, and to be ready to take Shanghai to secure the horses.

Sorry. I had been without internet over the weekend and I didn't think I could be up so soon. I can pick this up tomorrow morning EDT.

Encroaching the chinese lands will make them hate us

If encroaching means what I think it means, that's not true. And we do have a strong military up there.

Start building and planning for a small scale war to take the horses.

Why not totally wipe them out? Our goal is conquest.

Pressuring borders increases the likeliness that they will declare war on us, but as long as we have a strong military and watch for sneak attacks it should not be a problem.

I would like to have two phases of war against them, to get some techs/cities out of it. I was thinking of attacking and taking 2-3 cities (more if we can, depends on their military presence), then getting some tech for peace. Use the horses to build a horse army, and push back greece; we'll need horsemen to even dent the hoplites.

We could optionally try to slice into the center of the Greek lands to take their iron.

I don't have a significant preference about how to fight, but I want to make sure we start focusing on a military buildup. I often build infrastructure and expansion while neglecting military, and I just want to keep military in the forground. How we actually proceed is open to discussion.

A trick with the settler factory:
We need to irrigate the other Flood plains. We can work a forest instead of a plains when the food box is empty for 4 fpt and extra shields. Next turn, we switch the forest to a FP, making 6 fpt which makes up for initially working the forest, but we get extra shields anyway from the forest on growth. I think we get 1 extra shied from this gambit.

I'm not sure I understand you - 4 turn settler factory will work well if implemented as I described above. Are you suggesting we work a forest one turn then irr FP alt turns instead of plains? In despotism this gives same outcome (FP then forest -> no surplus food, 2S - plains 2 turns -> no surplus food, 2S) Unless I misunderstood, it sounds like a lot of extra work for no benefit and even if it did give an extra shield - what would we do with it (settler only req 30S and we're already getting that).

I think either I screwed up, or your calculations are incorrect, as IIRC we are not getting a settler every 4 turns. And the problem is shields. Because we go from irrigated plains to forest, we get an extra shield. Then we have to work a 3 food zero shield FP, but we grow that turn and no harm done. It's 4 food then 6 food.

Here's a discussion about it (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114880&highlight=Tweaking+Settler+Factory)

I had a low shield settler factory once. I didn't try this and I didn't get enough shields, then I did and it worked.

I think either I screwed up, or your calculations are incorrect, as IIRC we are not getting a settler every 4 turns. And the problem is shields. Because we go from irrigated plains to forest, we get an extra shield. Then we have to work a 3 food zero shield FP, but we grow that turn and no harm done. It's 4 food then 6 food.

Here's a discussion about it (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114880&highlight=Tweaking+Settler+Factory)

I had a low shield settler factory once. I didn't try this and I didn't get enough shields, then I did and it worked.

See post 125 - I described in detail how it works for this site. We are not low on shields as we get 6 shields first 2 turns, 7 shields next 2 turns plus 2 shields on growth from forest (twice) giving 30 shields. The disconcerting thing is at the end of turn 3 it shows growth in 1, but settler build in 2. This is because the program does not calculate the extra shields gained on growth.

Believe me it does work. I suspect it is the reason team Wackem shot out so far ahead in score early.

Edit : Washington is currently out of synch
Next settler due in 1, but growth in 2
Suggest move BG tile to lake to delay settler 1 turn - this delay will be made up for by settler factory now being go (need to use both mined BGs - have to take one back from 04 - could be why own found it coming up shields short) Should then find settlers at turns 2, 6 and 10 next player and turns 4 and 8 following player.

Any thoughts on forbidden palace. Corruption is making its mark

Currently of our core cities (the ones on the starting plain)

Buffalo wasting 2/3 commerce and 0/1 shield
08 wasting 1/2 comm, 1/3 shield
06 wasting 1/4 comm. 1/2 shield
02 wasting 1/3 comm, 2/5 shield
03 wasting 2/5 comm, 2/6 shield
05 wasting 1/3 comm, 1/6 shield
04 wasting 1/4 comm, 1/5 shield
total wastage 9/24 commerce, 8/28 shields for core towns not incl capital

05 could build FP in 37 turns or sooner - I'm not sure what the reduction in waste and corruption would be, but I think it even more necessary once we reach Rep with potentially more commerce to gain. (Rep due in 32)

Embassies - any thoughts for timing of these?

Jungle cities
These are totally corrupt - I do not see much gain in building infrastructure - a rax takes 40 turns to build, then pay for it whilst building archer every 20 turns -> extra 20g cost for each archer. Similarly temples not worthwhile unless we decide we are not going to push any further north and want to culture protect our current border. I thought we would want to tackle China to gain horses - once we have Shanghai and closer cities a temple in the middle of the jungle area will be of little use but continuing expense.
My suggestion is to keep building workers every 10 turns which can first provide roads for our military, second clear and irrigate jungle for growth in republic when these corrupt cities will be able to support scientists.

Resources
- horses - appears should be our first goal unless there is a consensus for peaceful coexistence with Chinese :rolleyes:
- iron - 2 options a) fight Greeks for Corinth (hard work with archers (or horses) v hoplites, probably have to wait for longbows) or b) send a well defended settler / worker up to far north (N of Pharsolos) and build road / iron colony with city on northernmost tundra - this option requires peaceful coexistence with Greeks or our supply route gets disrupted. Option 3 is wait for Greeks to hook it up (if ever) then trade for it (hoping they dont trade to Chinese) :crazyeye: I'm undecided on this one - we will need iron for railroads and if want decent fighting units for next few ages
- wines - would be nice - either fight for them (see Corinth above) or trade

Military matters. If we agree to punish Chinese for boldly aquiring our horses.
Need
1) Army of archers.
2) 2 new cities - one 2NW of ECB and 2nd further 1NE, 1N
3) Roads between these cities and towards Shanghai
Currently have 6 archers (5v, 1e)
In10 turns we could have further 4 (2 from 04, 2 from 03) +1 from 05 if no FP
In 20 turns we could have above plus 6 (2 from 04, 03 and 02) + 3 from 05
giving total of 16 (or 20 if no FP) archers - option for some to be spears to minimise losses.
How mant do we need?
Probably next turn set will set up China war, following one should commence it
? ally Greeks as Chinese are the strongest of us 3.

Use CivAssistII after the Destruction of China to find which FP location is the best. We need more than just a core to conquer the world quickly.

Use CivAssistII after the Destruction of China to find which FP location is the best. We need more than just a core to conquer the world quickly.

In C3C the position of the FP has no role in corruption other than for the city in which it is built. The important thing is just to build it. It cannot help to make a second core unlike in PTW. Building it in a totally corrupt city will take a long time unless leader rushed, it is generally better to build it in a city with good production so it gets built quickly - hence my choice of 05. It would not make sense to build it in a rax city as now we are paying rax upkeep we should use these cities for military production. That leaves 05 with 5S, 02 with 3S and the rest with 1S production.

I used to think that too, but it does reduce corruption by a small amount in surrounding cities. That doesn't give you a "core," but it is signifigant. But, sometimes the FP can actually increase corruption if the city has very low corruption, and we don't want that.

I used to think that too, but it does reduce corruption by a small amount in surrounding cities. That doesn't give you a "core," but it is signifigant. But, sometimes the FP can actually increase corruption if the city has very low corruption, and we don't want that.

There is some reduction in corruption for cites near the FP as this does improve distance corruption, however it does not reduce rank corruption other than by increasing the optimal city number which it does wherever it is built. The benefits I believe to be quite small. OTOH, by building the FP in a corrupt location it will not be avail for a lot longer resulting in increased corruption for our core in that time. I was unaware vof the FP increasing corruption in a city - I would be interested in reading any articles on that.
I have found Axeman's article in the War Academy very insightful (I struggle with understanding all the calculations though :blush: )

OK - Ive gone into some details with civassist re FP location

I have considered 4 locations - 05 for its productive capacity will produce FP soonest, 06 and Buffalo will give more corruption benefit to northern towns on starting plain plus some extra benefit to jungle towns, 07 maxes the benefit in jungle towns. The wild card in the stack is waiting and seeing if we get a leader in the Chinese war (and if we successfully attack Beijing - size 7 on hill) using Beijing for FP as I agree this is a great city site and may make for semi productive cities around it. A lot of ifs, but potentially the best outcome.

I have used civassist to asssign corruption in Rep for each of above cities as that is what we will most likely spend most of the game in - this gives the following table

City % corruption
Desp Rep FP05 FP06 FPBu FP07
04 19 14 10 13 13 13
05 23 18 08 15 15 15
06 27 22 18 10 18 18
08 30 25 21 21 18 21
02 37 32 26 23 26 26
03 41 36 26 28 28 28
Buf 52 44 36 28 20 36
07 78 63 54 49 39 20
09 90 75 64 61 49 36
ECB 90 83 71 69 56 34
(edit - sorry I couldnt make the colomns line up - hopefully its readable)

The earliest we could build the FP in each of these cities (switching straight away, assigning workers to max productive potential and growth to size 6, assuming research rep in 33 turns and anarchy for 5 turns) is.....

05 - 32 turns - nicely timed for just before rep
06 - 59 turns
Buf - 79 turns
07 - 83 turns

Of course a successful war against China spawning a GML (or 2) whilst capturing Beijing in approx 30 turns would out perform all of the above if used for rushing FP. Is this strat being too greedy? Hand building FP in Beijing (or native city rebuilt on site) likely to take 200 turns from capture.

What do others think?
.
.
.
or should I just shut up and let everyone get on with the fun bit of blatting our enemies :mischief:

I found it in the list of bugs in C3C. Apparently it sets corruption to certain percent, and if the percent is lower, it incresses it.

We should research Literature before Republic. It could be done in 10 turns and we need something to build besides barracks.

I see mapmaking is out there. We should not go to war until the AI has some off-island contacts. It would be a shame for China to get them and then not trade to us.

My vote is for the FP in the city which can build it fastest.

Am I up?

We should research Literature before Republic. It could be done in 10 turns and we need something to build besides barracks.

I see mapmaking is out there. We should not go to war until the AI has some off-island contacts. It would be a shame for China to get them and then not trade to us.

My vote is for the FP in the city which can build it fastest.

Am I up?

Yep - roster is...

Abegweit - next to go
voe - completes everyone one turn
Andronicus
IstariAsuka
Symphony D
stagnate
Own

As a shot from left field.
Abegweit suggested researching Lit before Rep - my initial thought was we have already delayed Rep too much allowing other teams to potentially out research us (I believe this is likly to be a tech race - the promise of graphs comparing tech rates with results suggests others feel likewise). I then wondered what might happen if we built the GLib in 05 (using prebuild) - would complete in approx 55 - 60 turns. Could then stop research after Rep allowing build up cash resources until education discovered then switch back on. The early maps and contact trading should ensure a rapid rate of tech aquisitions which we can take advantage of by selling for gpt. Might this allow us to catch up with where we might have been if we had reached Rep earlier and were researching faster? Of course it would mean putting up with despotic penalties a little longer.

Upon reflection, I think you're right. Literature is yet another optional tech, one we should trade for instead of researching. Every optional tech we research is that much more time to flight. We should be able to get Republic within about 24 turns or so. With a bit of luck, we can use it to trade our way into the MA perhaps getting one or both of the other optional techs on the way.

As for ways to catch back up, it seems to me that the right way to do it is to get a GA, not a GL. In either case, we need wonders so I'll start a couple of pre-builds, one for the FP and the other for something else. My preference would be the Gardens with the GW as a fallback.

In my experience, the Library slows down tech instead of speeding it up. This is especially true here. The Gods have blessed us with a big fertile land to the north. We need to cover it with scientists whose work we can sell to the AI.

I'll also get out more archers so that we can get the space for the scientists to go to work. We still have too many barracks under construction. I'll look into the possibility of building workers instead. There's a lot of jungle out there.

I'll be starting my turns about 4 hours from this post and have it up a couple of hours later.

Pre-flight check: per Andronicus’ suggestion, Washington is delayed one turn. I cannot find any way to squeeze in a build instead. Troops will be moved to this for MPs, enabling us to reduce the lux rate. O2 and O5 are switched to wonder builds. One will get the FP and the other, hopefully, the Colossus. A couple of other barracks builds are switched to workers and ‘pults. O8 will be allowed to complete its build, giving us three decent unit builders. Warriors are moved on their way to main towns for garrison duty.

Turn 1 (975 BC) Reduce lux rate to 20%. Republic now due in 25. A barb galley is spotted.
Turn 2 (950 BC) Washington settler -> settler. O4 archer -> spearman. O7 worker->worker Reduce lux rate to 0%. Republic due in 20.
Turn 3 (925 BC) Blah
Turn 4 (900 BC) Lux rate 10%
Turn 5 (875 BC) O3 archer->archer
Turn 6 (850 BC) Washington settler->settler. Worker merged into O2. Lux rate 0%
Turn 7 (825 BC) O4 spearman->worker O9 worker->worker; O10 founded->worker
Turn 8 (800 BC) O3 worker->archer
Turn 9 (775 BC) Buffalo worker->worker O6 catapult->catapult; barb camp appears to south east; move archer in to defend
Turn 10 (750 BC) Washington settler->settler. O4 worker->archer; Beijing builds Pyramids :D 0% lux

Post-flight:

Republic due in 11. FP in 29 and Colossus 27. The wonder builds can still be vetoed if desired. I doubt we’ll get the Colossus, but capturing it in Shanghai and building the Gardens or Great Wall would be nice.

There is a settler with movement left. I’m not sure what to do with it. I think it should probably go n-n but that’s a spot with no growth until more of the jungle is cleared. The Chinese like to buy our maps.

We are now up to eight archers, a spear and a pult for the attack on China. About twice as many archers and a few more cats are needed before we make our move. We should be about ready right about the time we revolt to Republic.

Nice turn Abegweit :goodjob:

I would suggest prioritising next 2 cities to jungle 2N of 07 and then 1N,1NE of that with roading hill between and jungle N of 2nd city. This would give our force a quick route to Shanghei. We need to keep producing a few more settlers to fill up the jungle.

Any thoughts on when to attack? Already our forces strong enough to take Chengdu (it has reached culture expansion so wont autoraze) and possibly also Shanghei. If we have designs on Beijing probably need 4-6 cats as size 7 on hill. Currently both China and Greece mil ave to us. In 5 turns we could have 2 more archers (04 gets shields on growth) who could join with 2 mp archers in 02 and 06 and cat to be completed in 6 from 06 plus current 5 archers up north and spear and cat on way - is this enough? - is this leaving us too weak if our attack falls flat. I believe we need to invest in embassy and inspect Chengdu and Shanghai before committing to attack to assess likelihood of success. Allying Greece may prevent China sending as many reinforcements. ? Sell Rep to China for tech +/- gold turn after we emerge from anarchy into Rep, then await their descent into anarchy to declare?

I noticed that the Chinese settled near northern iron (? obtain in peace deal)

Re barb in SE - my thinking is it is better to defend on mountain (2defence v 1attack) than attack with archer (2attack v 2defence) so long as barb doesnt move towards gems. ? move mp warrior out of 04 to help out? - just need to remember happiness if do this. The other place we may have barb problems is the mountains north of our core - ? leave a warrior on fog dispelling duties.

I wonder about building a rax in 08. This will be one of our core towns, but with low shoilds and high commerce I doubt we will get value for rax here - perhaps a swap to courthouse so not to waste shields and then cats or workers until need for infrastructure.
Also for ECB - temple here of little value as once built will presumably have taken Chengdu. As Chengdu already has its temple we will be well behind in any culture race if we elect peaceful route - current flip risk approx 1/200 per turn (? leave waiting force in ECB to prevent flip). The 15 shields could be swapped to a cat in 5 turns.

@Andronicus: I agree with you about the temple and barracks builds. I thought about changing them myself but didn't... It's not too late to switch the temple to a cat. Maybe the barracks might better become a granary or a harbour?

To the next player: there were two barbs in the camp and now there only is one. The other has probably headed to the east and may soon threaten our gems colony. The archer needs to move to protect it.

About war: I had not planned on it this soon so three archers are still in the south on garrison and barb-clearing duties. If they are to move north, the lux rate will have to be raised to 20%, slowing our research rate. I still think it's a good idea to wait for contacts before declaring war. For one thing, the Chinese are out exploring but the Greeks are not.

Edit: WRT investigation of Chengdu and Shanghai, it would be really good to find out whether the latter is likely to get the Colossus.

[QUOTE=Abegweit]
About war: I had not planned on it this soon so three archers are still in the south on garrison and barb-clearing duties. If they are to move north, the lux rate will have to be raised to 20%, slowing our research rate. I still think it's a good idea to wait for contacts before declaring war. For one thing, the Chinese are out exploring but the Greeks are not.QUOTE]

If we wait until a) we become Rep and encourage China to revolt and b) we have built 2 cities and 2 roads to Shanghai we will have a stronger force and those mp units ewont have to leave just yet.
PS. advisor says China has more units than us but their army strength is ave to us.

voe up on roster?

We should not go to war before getting Republic and encouraging China into anarchy. Agreed. I would also like to get contacts with the outside world first, especially as China is exploring better than Greece.

However, expansion is the number one priority so let's plan on attacking as soon as we learn Republic and trade China into anarchy. A secondary, but important, issue is whether to attack Shanghai before it has completed the wonder.

Its over 24 hours and no recent sign in from voe. I'm not sure what the protocol is. I assume if I dont hear otherwise that its OK for me to play through - I can play tomorrow morning - 11 hours time. If voe is up before then please post a got it so we dont both play

Roster
voe (allow another 11 hours to post a got it)
Andronicus - will play through if dont hear otherwise
IstariAsuka - waiting
Symphony D.
stagnate
Own
Abegweit

if anyone thinks this is wrong please post

He hasn't been on the forum since he signed into this thread so he should be put on skip until we hear from him. IMO, you're up.

I think we need to check shanghai and determine whether we can get China to build the wonder, or if we should give up. If they have a decent shot at completing it we need to make sure they don't change builds due to a declaration of war.

Although expansion is important, we need contacts and we should hope to have a couple of Chinese cities on other lands that we can get in a peace negotation. I do not think there is any way that they would trade the iron city for peace.

Hopefully we won't have to face off against chinese swords.

I don't believe I have ever seen the AI abandon a wonder build because of something as trivial as a war.

We do need to check the city to see whether we should hold off with the attack until it is completed as well as to judge what kind of attack force is needed.

Edit: I agree that overseas cities would be easier to get. IMO, they would be more useful too.

No so sure that an overseas city would be more useful than an iron city (unless it was an iron city OS) but you're right - the AI doesnt like to give up cities with resources.

I'll go ahead and play - this is my "got it"

Pre-flight
- settler 2N
- emb with Greeks - Athens will build collosus in 3 turns, they have not hooked up iron yet, 5spt, 80% science, 3 hoplites, they have spare wine, 6 cities
- emb with Chinese - Beijing has Pyramids, MoM starting - will take 20 turns @ 8spt, no lux, science 90% (2 entertainers), have horses hooked up (no HBR yet), 2 spears
- investigate Shanghei - only 1 spear defending! Coll due in 27 @ 4spt - I guess they would switch to lighthouse.
- investigate Chengdu 2 spears
- move archers to ECB to prevent flip risk, ECB switched to cat, I also switch our collosus build to FP (can be pre-build for HG if we can get mnarchy in trade) and FP build to court (will need eventually and am worried that 2 core cities building wonders prior to / during war may be unwise)

Turn 1 730BC
One barb warrior heads to gems (I send warrior there to defend) - lux 20%
011 built en route to Shanghai

IT archer wins v barb

Turn 2 710BC
Archer clears barb camp
ROP with Greece (get 34 gold) - I dont figure we will be attacking Greece within 20 turns and may wish to ally them - no rop with China as want to maintain rep

IT Athens completes collossus, building MoM. China research const (maybe they will build Great Wall - 1/2 of our golden age wonders?)

Turn 3 690BC
Move workers towards Shanghai for roading

IT
Wash settler -> settler, 02 court -> cat (this is our most productive city - needs 'duct ASAP - consider changing this for prebuild)
Chinese building GW in Beijing - if still 8spt this will be 30 turns from 750BC

Turn 4 670BC
Barbs in mountains S of jungle - send archers

IT 03 arch -> arch, 04 arch -> arch, 06 cat-> cat, ECB cat -> worker

Turn 5 650BC
Moving forces up and archers to barbs

Turn 6 630BC
Barb camp disbursed
012 en route to Shanghai
I mine one of the deserts near 08 - it has lots of food - needs shields

IT china demands we remove our worker stack from outside Chengdu - we agree but only after roading to connect Chengdu to our network
02 cat -> rax (we need to be able to build other infrastructure soon so this may be changed, but with war imminent a quick producer of vet units would be handy) 09 and 010 worker -> worker (if we have too many workers to support when we become rep they can be joined to form size 7 cities which triple unit support) Greece discovers currency.

Turn 7 610BC
MM

IT Wash settler -> settler

Turn 8 590BC zzzz

IT 04 arch -> arch, 06 cat -> court

Turn 9 570BC (Edit 550BC)
013 SE of Chengdu
Rep in 1 so turn down science to 50%

IT we learn Rep, 03 Arch -> arch 011 work -> work

Turn 10 550 BC (Edit 530BC)

I have not moved military units nor traded Rep - we need to decide timing as our large army will be expensive in repub until we get size 7 cities, also timing giving rep to catch china in anarchy (but us in rep ) would be neat. Settler is destined to go 1 E next move to settle, next city (settler will be built next turn) planned for 1W of our spear - not sure if anyone wants to build any after this.

Edit - cant find my save to upload and have to go to work like 20 min ago so will upload it later
Edit 2 - discovered I played an extra round - dates dont coincide from 570BC onwards - I should have stopped playing as was running late for work so rushed my write up and last 2 rounds - only found one mistake in my play so far - forgot to switch forest to plains for settler factory - fortunately saw this MMing next turn so could switch to iFP for same effect (ie settler will still be due next turn)

Good turns Andy. Mind if I call you Andy :p ?

Good turns Andy. Mind if I call you Andy :p ?
Um yes ... I really really do :p

OK save uploaded
First apologies - somehow I have skipped a turn in my log and hence played an extra turn to 530BC :blush:

War readiness
We have an army in place with roads ready to transport our troops
We are average in strength to China and strong to Greece - but our strength is focused for battle
There are 5 archers and 3 cats in 012, 2 archers on hill S of 012 and spear 1N of 012 all not yet moved and all able to threaten both Shanghai and Chengdu this turn (but dow b4 entering their territory) Also 2 archers inc elite in ECB which can threaten Chengdu. It is likely we could take these 2 towns next turn. They were not heavily defended when last I checked - you may want to investigate first (only cost me 12 gold for Chengdu last time).
We also have 2 cats on their way north and 3 archers in our core cities - in case of galley landing troops near our core.
Edit - may be worth thinking about leaving 1 or 2 archers near 07 (cant reach from ECB because of river) as Chinese galley in reach of 07.

Govt
I have not revolted yet - I think we should revolt ASAP. The question then becomes - do we attack straight away and fight in anarchy with limitted ability to resupply or do we wait until we are a republic and then trade rep to China for all their gold then dow as soon as they revolt catching them in anarchy.
I favour the latter although every wait strengthens them and our troop support will be high at beginning of rep
China has 20 turns(sorry 19) till it builds Great Wall - poss less if Beijing either expands or is using less entertainers.
Other option is trade now, dow when China revolts and wait our revolt until we are sure of war outcome and peace is near. Greece will give all 3 techs it knows for rep. If we ally them (? with Rep) we will need to fight China 20 turns. I think our first goal must be to swiftly take Shanghei and Chengdu, then regroup all forces (perhaps 1 or 2 left to guard jungle area) and assault Beijing - the pyramids would be a big prize. Alternatively we could fight a limitted war and take the 2 small towns, get peace, then attack Beijing after it builds the Wall (being size 7 means the wall has no effect on this city).

Research
I chose lit, but this can be changed as no research done yet. Although this is optional, maps, curr and const can be tradeed for and AI more likely to research poly and HBR, si lib more tradable. Other option is poly -> monarchy for HG switching 05 from FP to palace as prebuild, but that seems like an unecessary research delaying our flight goal.

Edit - screenie of future war zone attached - yellow dots are planned future cities

Before playing my last turns I did an analysis of our core cities and which tiles they could work when up to size 12. I believe once we are in rep we need to quickly get ducts in place in all except Wash on lake and 08 on river, then we can add workers to get up to size 12
I have done a dot map of sorts giving suggested tile usage which results in all land tiles exc a few mountains north and south being used. Those using coast tiles would need a harbour exc 08 which has excess food.
The coloured crosses correspond to the colour of dots that city would work
(analysing the outcome of this shows us to be shield short but commerce rich with only 4 towns likely to have 10spt after corruption until rails and factories).
I did this so we could think about which tiles to mine and which to irrigate. By no means do I think this is necessarily the best use, that after all will vary from time to time.
I would leave the mountains (other than goat already done) until after the rest. I have already commenced Washington's hill ready for rep.

Looking good, Andronicus :D ;)

Agreed that ducts are high priority.

WRT war, I suggest another third option: Trade away Republic immediately. Then revolt. Dow when China goes into anarchy whether we are out of it or not. This is not as dangerous as your first choice and saves a few turns over the second.

I think it important to let the GW finish in Beijing before taking the town. That plus the Colossus in Athens plus any another wonder equals our GA. Given this, we might as well ally the Greeks to our cause, planning to take Beijing right near the end of the war. I can't see the map from here. Is there any possibility of stealing the horses without taking the city? Possibly using a combat settler?

BTW, according to CAII our net income in Republic will be slightly better than it is now despite the unit costs.

I suppose our next research choice should be Polytheism, relying on the AI to get Horseback Riding.

Edit: Just to be clear, Polytheism is to get out of the Age, not to get Monarchy. If we get the GW, we do not need the Gardens. The FP should complete unless we get an opportunity to rush it. Literature is an optional tech and we should try to trade for it, not research. If we have to, we can come back to it later; there are plenty of things to build in the meantime.

Looking good, Andronicus :D ;)

Agreed that ducts are high priority.

WRT war, I suggest another third option: Trade away Republic immediately. Then revolt. Dow when China goes into anarchy whether we are out of it or not. This is not as dangerous as your first choice and saves a few turns over the second.

I think it important to let the GW finish in Beijing before taking the town. That plus the Colossus in Athens plus any another wonder equals our GA. Given this, we might as well ally the Greeks to our cause, planning to take Beijing right near the end of the war. I can't see the map from here. Is there any possibility of stealing the horses without taking the city? Possibly using a combat settler?

BTW, according to CAII our net income in Republic will be slightly better than it is now despite the unit costs.

I suppose our next research choice should be Polytheism, relying on the AI to get Horseback Riding.

Edit: Just to be clear, Polytheism is to get out of the Age, not to get Monarchy. If we get the GW, we do not need the Gardens. The FP should complete unless we get an opportunity to rush it. Literature is an optional tech and we should try to trade for it, not research. If we have to, we can come back to it later; there are plenty of things to build in the meantime.

Wont argue with poly - just thought lit less likely to be researched by AI, but with generally slow AI research pace we will probably have to research poly ourselves and will get lit later in trade anyway.

Regards war timing - 2 Chinese cities are busy building wonders - if they dont stop it will severely hamper their ability to counter attack. I considered getting Shanghai and Chengdu at the beginning of my turn - I think this is what a very good player would have done - I'm just too cautious and tend to wait too long to take advantage of an opportunity - also I didnt like taking the risk of poor RNG backfiring on me and having to reort that my 5 archers not only couldnt defeat the 3 spears in those 2 cities and then the city losses on counter attack - maybe if I was playing just for me I might risk more.

Horses are just the other side of Shanghai - we need to take it to get horses. I would prefer to attack China before they have too many horses.

Regards war timing - 2 Chinese cities are busy building wonders - if they dont stop it will severely hamper their ability to counter attack. I considered getting Shanghai and Chengdu at the beginning of my turn - I think this is what a very good player would have done - I'm just too cautious and tend to wait too long to take advantage of an opportunity - also I didnt like taking the risk of poor RNG backfiring on me and having to reort that my 5 archers not only couldnt defeat the 3 spears in those 2 cities and then the city losses on counter attack - maybe if I was playing just for me I might risk more.I won't argue with that logic. I tend to want to wait for overwhelming force before attacking too. Maybe it is too conservative but I hate attacking and failing to take an enemy town.

Horses are just the other side of Shanghai - we need to take it to get horses. I would prefer to attack China before they have too many horses.They don't know HBR, but I see your point. It's just another reason to go to war now. With horses, we have the capabilty of taking on the Greeks. Which reminds me of another reason to bring them onside in the war: to provoke their GA now instead of later. Maybe even while they are in anarchy :crazyeye: The Greek issue seems to me to be a good argument in favour of starting the war immediately.

Woken up @ 12.15am with scary thought :eek:
Great Wall is militaristic + industrial
China are militaristic + industrial
We dont want China to build Great Wall do we??? :mischief:

If we capture Pyramids (industrial) and Collossus (expansionist) we only need build one (any) great wonder for our GA :)

OK, I'm back to sleep and dreams of civ conquoring :crazyeye:

Wow, good call. I don't dream about civ (I wish I would) but I think about it for hours while lying in bed (you'd think I'd have a civ dream now and then, wouldn't ya?).

Woken up @ 12.15am with scary thought :eek:
Great Wall is militaristic + industrial
China are militaristic + industrial
We dont want China to build Great Wall do we??? :mischief:

If we capture Pyramids (industrial) and Collossus (expansionist) we only need build one (any) great wonder for our GA :)

OK, I'm back to sleep and dreams of civ conquoring :crazyeye:Great point. We don't need the wall and we don't want them to have it. Beijing, here we come.

No takers for next turn? - should be IstariAsuka by my reckoning

Roster
Andronicus - done his dash
IstariAsuka - go for it
Symphony D. - ready if IstariAsuka doesnt log soon
stagnate
Own
Abegweit
voe - if your still game let us know and you can be slotted in

The next few turns should be fun with Chinese war imminent
- we have at max 19 turns (could be as few as 15) before China builds Great Wall - it would be nice to get Beijing by then
- goals of Chinese war - Shanghei for horses, Beijing for pyramids and Chengdu to relieve cultural pressure on jungle cities. Poss cities on another island in peace treaty ?? iron.
Rep ready to go - suggest waiting 1 turn to complete current (? last from settler factory) settler then keep Wash to 5fpt during anarchy so grows to size 7 increasing unit support (08 should also be able to grow -may req a worker join to reach size 7 by time emerge from anarchy.
Dont forget to move an archer or 2 into range to defend 07 if Chinese galley drops off a unit - maybe move one up from core cities.

Don't forget to bring the Greeks in. We them to squander their GA on the war.

The AI will cancel a wonder to build a defender in a city depending on the offensive force and defensive presence. I am not sure if they would do it if the wonder city wasn't directly threatened.

Moot point anyway.

I'm just going to let it be known in advance before IstariAsuka completes his turns that I'm going to need a skip as I'm in the middle of a move to another apartment right now. Sorry guys. :(

Whoaaa guys, sorry for the delay, it's been really really hectic here with school starting and things.

But I haven't abandoned you!

I'll play my turns tomorrow afternoon.

Whoaaa guys, sorry for the delay, it's been really really hectic here with school starting and things.

But I haven't abandoned you!

I'll play my turns tomorrow afternoon.

Good luck - have fun - looking forward to your report of China's demise :D

Roster
Andronicus - just played
IstariAsuka - on deck
Symphony D. - skip till further notice
stagnate - waiting
Own
Abegweit
voe - if checks in?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC0350_01.SAV

Well, some things went well, some things went unfortunately. Overall I think I was slightly too ambitious, as you will see below.

I did make fairly extensive use of scientists to research polytheism 2 (3?) turns more quickly than otherwise possible (quite an increase!)



530 BC
Set research to Polytheism.
Trade for techs and money.
Move forces into preparation to attack Shanghai.
Move forces into preparation to attack Chengde

510 BC
War begins.
Take Shanghai with minimal damage.
Take Chengde with minimal damage.
Greece enters into the war on our side for free.

490 BC
Nothing of interest.

470 BC
Nothing of interest.

450 BC
Learn Polytheism (I believe it was this turn, at least.

430 BC
Barely fail to take Beijing due to really really terrible luck.
Conquer and raze that SW Chinese city, I cannot recall the name.

410 BC
Nothing of interest.

370 BC
Forbidden Palace built.
Barely fail to take Xinjian due to really, really terrible luck.

350 BC
Horse Back Riding learned, Middle Ages have begun.


As you can see, I was a little less conservative than I should have be, and the RNG punished me for it. Other than that, however, the war went well, and reinforcements archers are ariving up north, now.

Note that I did NOT begin a revolt to Republic, since I felt that I'd need a few more troops than were already built or the war would stall too badly. This probably was a bad decision. I was going to revolt this turn, but I leave that up to the player who plays next.

I gotta go now, but I'll post a screen cap later tonight. :goodjob:

Again, sorry about the delay in my turns. :sad:

China War
2 out of 3 objectives achieved so far - 1 left - capture Beijing and pyramids

We are running out of time before Great Wall built. When I checked in 750BC it wuld take 20 turns to build MoM (2/3 shields as GW) making their GW build 10 more turns at max, perhaps less if production has increased.
Could anyone comment on whether there is a bug with GW such that cats wont work against it - I recall reading they cause a crash but I'm not sure whether this refers to PTW or all versions? If this is the case I doubt we could take Beijing without a mass of longbows.

How many spears in Beijing? - if only the one elite we should hit it with cats to get it down to 1HP then attack with all avail units. We are currently average in military compared to China and weak against Greece.

We currently have little mil in position to threaten Beijing, but there are 5 cats nearby which could be brought to bear with a spear for protection and any archers avail.

I think the trick will be to get a strong enough attack force in place in the next 5 or 6 moves. This could be assisted by using the settler S of 12 to build 1SW, 1W of Beijing in the 5th turn thus shortening the trip. 5 archers (damaged one - healing meanwhile, one accompanying settler, one in 10, one near 07 and one on mountains b4 07) could all be in place to attack beijing on turn 6
2 horses could be rushed next turn in 02 and 03 which could also reach Beijing for turn 6 attack - hopefully 5 cats, 5 archers and 2 horse would be adequate (could get one other cat by rushing one in ECB).

Sev archers could be brought from core to jungle in case of unit drop off near 07 although I think any aggresson from China is unlikely as they will likely be building defensive units with 2 front war.

Given all this we could probably stop unit production after this and maybe revolt turn 2 or 3 - this has been delayed already - quite rightly I think until the war has an inevitable conclusion.

Once Beijing secure we will need to starve resistors. Do we keep cats and a archer retake force outside in case of flip, or stack units inside to decrease flip probability? On subject of flips we should starve down Chengdu and Shanghei which both have resistor present.
Edit : Shanghei flip probability 1.8-3.7% per turn.
Do we continue on to Nanking, Canton and Xinjiang - guess it depends how much miliary we have left and whether we are hit with war weariness. I recommend concentrating our army on one city at a time.

If we are unable to take Beijing before Great Wall built we will be facing China in its GA and able to hurry spears in Beijing - not a pretty prospect.

We still have 2 turns rop left with Greece (I recommend renew unless we want to take Athens with cats and archer/horse v hoplites) as I think we need some time to build a bit of neglected infrastructure. Also 12 turns left on alliance v Chinese so no peace treaty before then unless Greece signs first.

Not convinced about reg warrior builds in 14 and 15 - I think all jungle cities should max food (non-corrupted) and build workers which can be added to core cities to speed their growth (or build cats which dont benefit from vet status)

China War
2 out of 3 objectives achieved so far - 1 left - capture Beijing and pyramids

Yeah, sorry about the whole Beijing thing. I had like 3 archers die without doing ANY damage to their guys. Eventually they one with only the elite spearman left, and him with only ONE hp remaining. It was really frusterating. So I apologize for that.


We are running out of time before Great Wall built. When I checked in 750BC it wuld take 20 turns to build MoM (2/3 shields as GW) making their GW build 10 more turns at max, perhaps less if production has increased.
Could anyone comment on whether there is a bug with GW such that cats wont work against it - I recall reading they cause a crash but I'm not sure whether this refers to PTW or all versions? If this is the case I doubt we could take Beijing without a mass of longbows.

I was actually thinking that if we failed to take Beijing in time, we should make peace, obtaining their iron city in the process. (They're willing to give 1-2 cities for peace, depending upon the cities.) Then, when the iron is attached through some harbors (probably switch to republic and cash rush the harbors), we could build swords and attack. Swords would be just as effective against walled-spears as archers have been against non-walled-spears, so it wouldn't be that big a setback.


How many spears in Beijing? - if only the one elite we should hit it with cats to get it down to 1HP then attack with all avail units. We are currently average in military compared to China and weak against Greece.

When I attacked it it was left with just that one elite spearmen, yes. That was a few turns ago though, so they have probably buffed it up a little since then.


We currently have little mil in position to threaten Beijing, but there are 5 cats nearby which could be brought to bear with a spear for protection and any archers avail.

Yeah, even though both our attack forces were destroyed, I was able to retreat the cats. I was really lucky to be able to retreat the cats in the SW at all, but RNG pittied me. :)


Once Beijing secure we will need to starve resistors. Do we keep cats and a archer retake force outside in case of flip, or stack units inside to decrease flip probability? On subject of flips we should starve down Chengdu and Shanghei which both have resistor present.
Edit : Shanghei flip probability 1.8-3.7% per turn.

I say we leave units stationed outside the cities.

Oh, and the reason that I didn't starve Chengdu and Shanghai much was because I didn't think the flip chance was high enough to make it worthwhile.


Do we continue on to Nanking, Canton and Xinjiang - guess it depends how much miliary we have left and whether we are hit with war weariness. I recommend concentrating our army on one city at a time.

Yeah, I really should have only gone after one city at a time. It's just that their cities were ridiculously weak. They all had like 2 spears at most. Beijing I think only had 2 spears and an archer or something like that. The odds were that I'd win easily enough, much as happened in the first 2 cities I took. It just didn't turn out that way, though. :blush:


Not convinced about reg warrior builds in 14 and 15 - I think all jungle cities should max food (non-corrupted) and build workers which can be added to core cities to speed their growth (or build cats which dont benefit from vet status)

Yeah, those I forgot to mention. I was too lazy to actually change them to produce anything other than warriors since they weren't almost done yet, and I didn't know what people would want them to produce instead of warriors. Therefore, I just left them for the next player to change. I didn't intend for them to actually make warriors!!

A screenie of the jungle zone showing our forces - 5 archers, a spear and 5 cats (and 1 settler) for assaulting Beijing
Edit - my proposed city site is on the jungle NW,N of the wounded archer/cat stack

[QUOTE=IstariAsuka]Yeah, sorry about the whole Beijing thing. I had like 3 archers die without doing ANY damage to their guys. Eventually they one with only the elite spearman left, and him with only ONE hp remaining. It was really frusterating. So I apologize for that.

I was actually thinking that if we failed to take Beijing in time, we should make peace, obtaining their iron city in the process. (They're willing to give 1-2 cities for peace, depending upon the cities.) Then, when the iron is attached through some harbors (probably switch to republic and cash rush the harbors), we could build swords and attack. Swords would be just as effective against walled-spears as archers have been against non-walled-spears, so it wouldn't be that big a setback.

When I attacked it it was left with just that one elite spearmen, yes. That was a few turns ago though, so they have probably buffed it up a little since then.

Yeah, I really should have only gone after one city at a time. It's just that their cities were ridiculously weak. They all had like 2 spears at most. Beijing I think only had 2 spears and an archer or something like that. The odds were that I'd win easily enough, much as happened in the first 2 cities I took. It just didn't turn out that way, though. :blush:

QUOTE]

I agree that china had really weak defences - I think tactically the mistake was mine in not going for Chengdu and Shanghai earlier, then concentrating maximal assault on Beijing. I'm sure the reason you had more difficulty with Beijing was because it's size 7 on a hill - we really need some luck with those cats to get their spear to 1HP then have enough units to throw at them to take the city. Good point about getting iron city in any peace deal if unsuccessful taking Beijing. I suspect that by the time we could retry Beijing it would be with trebs and MIs or LBs. Unfortunately I doubt we will find it poorly defended after they have completed the GW - it will likely have pikes :(

Roster

Andronicus
IstariAsuka - just played
Symphony D. - skip
stagnate - you're up
Own - waiting
Abegweit
voe - if checks in?

What happens if we get a great leader? Rush FP?

@Own We already have our FP

Some comments:

We have an alliance with Alex which expires in 12 turns. Do not cut a peace deal. They won't give us their iron city for peace anyway.

We should be training horses, not archers.

Why didn't we revolt as agreed?

Horse army? Or build an empty army and save it for swords? That's what I'd do.

@Own We already have our FP

Some comments:

We have an alliance with Alex which expires in 12 turns. Do not cut a peace deal. They won't give us their iron city for peace anyway.

We should be training horses, not archers.

Why didn't we revolt as agreed?

Agree 100% - 1) archers built in core next turn will not make it to Beijing before GW built, but horses probably will 2) horse upgradde more useful in taking over our island if we get iron - we must.

Horse army? Or build an empty army and save it for swords? That's what I'd do.

The time of swords has passed us by - we are now researching feudalism
The point is moot anyway since we lack elite units

I predict this map is like pangaea, with chokes between islands, and the challenge is having to take a longer route to get to your enemies. I'll bet 50 posts of my post account on that.

Ok got it. Won't look at peace for 12 turns unless really juicy or dire :-)

Turn 0:

Switch Archer builds to Horseman, may change some of those to infrastructure before they complete. Change O8 from Courthouse to Marketplace. It would gain 1 science from a courthouse and 1 maint, marketplace gives us +2 and 1 maint.

Warrior builds switched to cats. Not enough pop for workers yet.

Starve Shanghai and Chengu.

Switch research to 60% goes from 39 turns to 19 turns.

Hurry production of horse in O2 and O3.

Two workers outside 15 are working territory not in our borders. They'll finish soon so I let them be, but pay attention to borders.

IBT: Chinese archer comes from Xinjian.

Turn 1 (330 BC):

Horsemen built. Switch builds to aqueducts (won't complete until after revolution anyway). Move 2x archers and spear to take out the chinese archer. Retreat Cats to Shanghai with archer.

IBT China and Greece sign a peace treaty.

Turn 2 (310 BC):

How is there a worker of ours (captured chinese) outside beijing building a road???

Greece got Feudalism by entering the MA (probably what they got for peace). We are several turns into research on the same, so I let it be.

IBT turns resign RoP with Greece; don't want them to backstab us and don't think we'll be attacking them in 20 turns. Scandanavia shows up with a ship.

Turn 3 (290 BC):

Scandanavia doesn't know anyone, is down Currency, Construction, Philo, Poly, CoL. They have 120 gold and WM to trade, give them Philo in return. Establish embassy, working on Temple, have a boat and 2 spear in their city. No strategic resources hooked up. They can see orange borders on another island.

Turn 4 (270 BC):

China captures our worker, two archers are outside cities but not yet exposed. Move most of the stack forward with settler. Vikings still haven't 'met' the orange, and greece has red (babs?) outside on of their cities also with no contact.

Turn 5 (250 BC):

Horse takes elite archer and 1 damage, horse takes reg archer and is redlined. Move two archers into place to cover (1 reg archer threatens). Cats can't move onto jungle, fortify with the rest of the troops, move spear and horse and settler to city spot.

Turn 6 (230 BC): Archer loses to our units, we have 2/4 archer and 1/4 horse will wait for them to recover before attack (hope we beat GW).

Move archer to 15 to keep Greece honest (archer moving through via RoP).

Move 4/4 archers, cats and spear next to Beijing to start bombing them next turn, which will give us an idea of their strength.

Turn 7 (210 BC):

Cats take spear down to 3/5 and don't reveal any other units, so I send horse in. Doesn't retreat, doesn't deal any damage. Another archer takes out a chinese archer threatening our new city.

Turn 8 (190 BC):

Cats take beijing down to 2/5 and don't reveal anything else, bring archer into battle and it takes the city with 1HP loss.

I'm ending my turn early, because there are two decisions awaiting. The first issue is that we still will only get 1-2 cities from China for peace, and we have enough of a force to take Nanking or Canton in 3 turns (I prefer canton, so that their capital is as far from their other cities as possible.

We could get Macao (on its own little island), and Tatung (same island as their iron). We can't get lit in that deal. If we take canton we should also be able to get ayung or whatever.

I haven't revolted because I can't remember if that will affect a peace deal. Check Greece and Vikings every turn to try to trade contacts.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_BC0190_01.SAV

I haven't revolted because I can't remember if that will affect a peace deal. Check Greece and Vikings every turn to try to trade contacts.

No, definately not. Where did you get that idea? Anyway, I'm up, and will have this tomorrow night probably.

@AlanH

:confused: I don't receive any emails indicating that there have been new posts on the thread. :sad:

You can just check your user CP periodically.

We have Beijing :band:
We have the Pyramids [party]
China doesnt have GW nor GA :dance:

Well done stagnate - seems you had much better RNG than IstariAsuka

Recommend we revolt ASAP - we have enough units to damage China's northern remains.

2 archers with movement left can be moved N of Dallas, then adjacent Canton next turn - these can be joined by horse moving this turn up from 11 and horse in Dallas after it has healed next turn - with good RNG 4 units should be sufficient. Next turn cats and remaining archers can go get Nanking 1 turn later. Decision then whether to accept peace or go for Xianjing as well depending on how affected by war weariness when emerge into Rep.
China wont give up an iron city - looks like we will need to get iron from Greeks with longbows when we go for Athens and its Collosus. Note no further Chinese cities nor any Greek cities built on hills. We should be able to get lit from Chinese in peace deal.

Re ex junglr cities - I note we have mined 4 grass tiles and are mining 2 more - not sure that we will see much use for this as shields are all currently lost on waste (07 currently using hill sacrificing non corruptible food). Irrigating in rep will allow us to support sev scientists in each corrupt city - mining will give very few shields, most likely requiring courts before we see sig benefit.
Build orders in these cites - workers are useful and can be added to core cites to get them up to size, settlers can build more cities in ex chinese territory (red dots on dot map) I think we have enough cats (later upgrade to trebs for Greek war) and I doubt benefit of rax in corrupt city. I would also question building reg spear in Shanghai (? settler), but I admit I have an aversion to defensive units.
Some MM will increase growth (eg 13 can work grass instead of coast allowing growth and worker build next turn)

Re diplo - should we consider gifting / trading contacts and techs to speed up world research rate?

@Stagnate Woo Hoo! :goodjob:

@Andronicus

I agree totally about how the rest of the war should play out. Go for it, Own.

And definitely we should speed up the global research rate. This should wait for the peace treaty, though. Literature + contact with the Viking + research to date might get feudalism from the Greeks. Dunno. The AI wants a fortune for that tech.

However, I think we should plan on attacking the Greeks sooner. Waiting for Invention is too long. Horses and cats can take out hoplites. An alternate route to would be to take Tatung in the treaty. The second the treaty expires we move on Tientsin to get iron. In fact, this should be part of our plan however we move on the Greeks.

We also need to think about which wonder we want to build and where. The best are probably Smith's and Bach but they both come from optional techs. I'm leaning towards Sistine. Cops is another possibility. What about the Mausoleum? It's cheap.

I think I was getting mixed up between reasons for AI attacking (anarchy increases the chance) and peace deals (based on losses to each side).

The spearmen was simply because I couldn't think of what to change it to and it was slow enough the next player could decide. Note that I didn't change any builds or look at cities, so check things out before your next turn.

We definately need to get tatung in a peace deal, with plans to take tientsin later for iron.

I want to wait for the Vikings to make contact with that other civ, to get whatever we can from them before trading contact. Don't trade at Monopoly rates, so don't bother trying to get Feudalism from Greece.

We can sell our granaries also for a little extra cash.

@stagnate

With some exceptions, cities outside the core should generally be building workers. Since we have the Pyramids, our scientist towns will grow even if we peel workers off them. The workers then proceed to irrigate everything in sight. Once done, they head home to be merged into our core cities. About the only other thing we will need out in the boonies is harbours.

While I understand the point about monopoly trading, it doesn't apply here. Get feudalism as soon as we can. The sooner we get it, the sooner we can start on something else. Our research rate has been horrible so far and it is going to kill us. The one thing which can get us back into this game is a GA, and it needs to come Real Soon Now.

As for the orange civ, I don't trust the AI to make contact and would not plan anything based on how soon they meet. We do have plenty of stuff to trade to the Vikings anyhoo so there will be no problem. Certainly we should make contact as soon as we can.

Our research rate has been horrible so far and it is going to kill us. The one thing which can get us back into this game is a GA, and it needs to come Real Soon Now.

Though I messed up in failing to take Beijing, that is one thing I did do right: I made extensive use of scientists, cutting Polytheism from 7 turns to 4! It takes work, but we're only playing 10 turns each, so it's not too tedious.

Just fiddle around with the happiness slider--if people are a little unhappy, it's OK, we make them scientists. This allows us to have the science slider up higher than it could otherwise be, and gets us scientists. This does slow down production somewhat, since ~1 tile/city is not being worked when it otherwise would be, but the speed-up in research is tremendous. :D

Noticed 01 - formerly Washington - is working the hill. This gives 3 extra fpt and growth in 4 turns with 2 food wastage. If 5fpt growth was maintained (by working iFP) it would grow in 2 until size 7, then grow in 4 once granary full - this city should be able to get up to size 12 rapidly and probably will not require adding in workers (neither I suspect will 08) -other core cities req duct then add workers to get up to size. Once in Rep, with removal of despotic penalty, we should be able to work the hill.
My suggestion would be to build market in 01 as prebuild for lib instead of temple.

I agree with IstariAsuka that we need judicous use of scientists to boost science. In Rep the corrupt jungle cities will support sev scientists each working a couple of irr grasslands.
Libraries in core ASAP will also help.

BTW the orange to the north of Vikings would be English and red to west of Greeks would be Romans. I assume Japanese (they who built oracle) are south of Romans.

Interesting point re Greeks - they are currently building 3 wonders (leaving only Knossos - shield poor and Sparta able to respond to war with units). I suspect Athens is close to completing MoM. Corinth will take a long time on the Lighthouse likewise Thermopylae on ToA. We are however weak militarily compared to them.

I agree with Abegweit and stagnate re getting Tatung in peace treaty then rushing archers to take Tientsin to secure iron (? take 6 archers - all rushed after 1 shield -> 114g - cheap price for iron). This assumes Tientsin doesnt become capital with units in gifted cities going to it nor that China hooks up its iron and upgrades to pikes.

re wonder to spark off GA

First we need to capture Athens (for most of these)

Sistine's - expensive ? useless - I cant see us building cathedrals
Sun Tzu's - expensive, some use as we will have lots of cities - means we can rush vets in corrupt cities late in game.
Leo's - expensive, not sure how useful as helis, bombers and tanks will not come from upgrades
MoM - Athens will get it first
GLib - ? little use
HG - req research optional tech - probably most useful of those no more than 2 techs away
GW - along with ToA & GLight I expect someone will build soon - useless
Knights Templar - optional tech, would be useful in taking Greek cities but defeats the purpose as we need wonder build after capturing Athens.

Copernicus - my choice - only 400 shields, 5 techs away, (not that long once in Rep), is expansionist thus giving us our GA irrespective of whether we own the collosus in Athens and useful to boost our science. I would suggest building it in 01 which can be 20spt once at size 12. Can start prebuild after lib?
Edit - why build in 01? - only really good shield producer, no corruptable science bonus, doesnt need court so less other infrastructure to build.

Sorry guys, I need an extension to tomorrow night, was much busier than expected.

@stagnate

With some exceptions, cities outside the core should generally be building workers. Since we have the Pyramids, our scientist towns will grow even if we peel workers off them. The workers then proceed to irrigate everything in sight. Once done, they head home to be merged into our core cities. About the only other thing we will need out in the boonies is harbours.

Can also do with more settlers - we have room for 7 more in former Chinese lands (less 2 settlers we have at present) see dot map for suggested placement, and will later want many more for (soon to be) former Greek lands. :D
Harbours are not required just yet - irr grass is preferable due to extra growth (non corruptable) v extra commerce (corruptable). Once all grass tiles are irrigated and used then we will need harbours - we currently have about 6 unused grass tiles in the former jungle region with more to come with jungle clearing (2 should be used immed switching from hills for 07 and coast for 13).

Oh, I guess I never really told you guys why I started the whole 01, 02... 11, 12... etc. naming scheme. What it does is put all your cities in alphabetical order. This is convenient because when you go to your culture advisor screen where you can see happiness and production, etc. your core cities are all at the top of the screen. Instead of having to hunt down your major cities, they're all nicely lumped together. This makes life much easier, especially when deciding upon lux slider/scientists and the type of thing.

Oh, I guess I never really told you guys why I started the whole 01, 02... 11, 12... etc. naming scheme. What it does is put all your cities in alphabetical order. This is convenient because when you go to your culture advisor screen where you can see happiness and production, etc. your core cities are all at the top of the screen. Instead of having to hunt down your major cities, they're all nicely lumped together. This makes life much easier, especially when deciding upon lux slider/scientists and the type of thing.

Alternately in the advisor screen you can click on the gold, science, production etc bow at top of screen to see cities in order of commerce, science, production etc, alos click again gives reverse order.

Personally I like to rename cities on another island or in a different region with a prefix eg W for western island NE for NE island so I know where I'm dealing with if I've got tons of cities - this also puts cities in same region lumped together alphabetically on advisor screen (at least if use sev letters in prefix).

I'm sure there are many other ways - who's to say what is best ;)

Allright, GOT IT!!

I'm sorry, I need a skip. Sorry I waited so long to tell you that, it's annoying, but I'm really busy tonight.

I'll try to pick it up tomorrow morning.

Consider this a got it.

Pre-flight. We should have revolted 20 turns ago. It’s time now.

Several cities are whipped in preparation for the move. All of the mine builds are changed to irrigation. China does not seem ready to give up and will have to be beaten up more.

OK. Push the button. Eight turns. Ugh! It serves us right for growing before revolting.

170 Take out Chinese archer [1-0]
150 Take out barb camp with two horses [3-0]
130 4/4 archer takes 2/3 spear [4-0]
4/4 archer loses to 2/3 spear [4-1]
4/4 archer takes 2/3 spear [5-1]
4/4 archer takes 2/4 spear [6-1]
Nanking is ours
110 Greeks have met the Romans
90 Romans buy contact. They know Limeys and Japs and Literature
70 Movement
50 Assault on Canton
4/4 archer takes 2/3 spear [7-1]
4/4 archer takes 1/3 spear [8-1]
4/4 archer takes 1/3 spear [9-1] and Canton is ours
30 Republic established
10 Assault on Xinjiang
4/4 horse takes 3/3 spear and promotes [10-1]
4/4 horse takes 2/3 spear [11-1]
4/4 horse takes 2/3 spear [12-1] and the city is ours

The Chinese are driven off the mainland so it’s time for peace. Unfortunately we cannot get either Tientsin or Hangchow in the peace deal. They will give us Anyang, Macao, Shantung and Literature and Territory Map so I take that.

I’m stopping now. There’s a lot of trading left to do, but I’ll leave that up to the next player. Also, the cities need to be micro-managed as the war ended. Andronicus… over to you.

In sum, we have taken six more cities and are finally in Republic. Feudalism is due in 2. I haven't checked about whether that can be mm'd down to 1 or whether getting more contacts will help.

The Chinese are driven off the mainland so it’s time for peace. Unfortunately we cannot get either Tientsin or Hangchow in the peace deal. They will give us Anyang, Macao, Shantung and Literature and Territory Map so I take that.

Shoot, we really wanted tatung so we could take tientsin by military force from that jumping point. Our battle against Greece will probably require longbows, unless we can manage to steal an iron via culture bomb or something.

Hangchow was "close". I would have taken it instead of all the other stuff if I could have gotten it instead. But once the Chinese were gone, there was nothing else to do but make peace.

It might be worth investigating Athens to see if we have a decent shot at it. I think we should. We have 8 archers, 6 horses, 7 cats and 1 spearman left over from the China war. That should be more than enough. We are currently rated "weak" against Alex, however.

Great work - 12-1 is excellent win loss ratio

@ Own - are you avail now (ie do swap with Abegweit) or do you want skip?

I'm unable to play at present - my main computer seized up in power surge (in middle of GOTM) and now I cant even turn it on to get the civ disk out - I'm off to the store to get it repaired. I'm hopeful they can retrieve my disk today.

I'm up in another SG, if you can get it by tomorrow no need for a swap.

Got it -the save and my civ CD. will play soon

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_AD0190_01.SAV

Preflight - switch a few core builds to libs
Greece are the cultural leaders - a few libs should help reduce flip risk as well as boost science
Trade Romans contact Eng & Jap for Dyes 1gpt + 6g
Trade English WM + 35g for Contact Vikings & Lit
Trade Jap WM + 2g for contact Vikings
Trade Greece Feud for contact England & Vikings, WM & 286g
Trade Rome furs, WM, 240g for Feud
Greece, Romans and us are now tech leaders - only us and Greeks have money
Research set to Mono with aim to get Astronomy & Cop ASAP

Turn 1 - 10AD - Greece commences HG in Sparta (they have gone wonder mad with current projects including Sun Tzu's in Athens, ToA in Therm., GLib in Knossos and GLH in Corinth)
I investigate Athens (see screenie below) - 3 hoplites defending. 30 turns at current rate for Sun Tzu's. We have 4 turns left on ROP. We have the choice of attacking Athens soon with our current force or waiting until just after Sun Tzu's built and take it as a bonus. The risk of waiting doesnt seem large as Greece will not be building its military whilst its building wonders. I've decided not to attack now - but if consensus is for early attack then we will not be losing much. Whenever we attack Corinth must be no 2 in our sights to gain iron. I elect not to trade for their wines so we can honorably dow in the next 20 turns.

Turn 2 - 30AD - barb camp appears in central mountains

Turn 3 - 50AD - 01 lib -> market, barb camp dispersed

Turn 4 - 70AD - Vikings found Alesund on isle SW of 02 and 03, 3 viking galleys are in our waters - I fear they will go for our undefended ex-Chinese cities - we cannot afford rushing spears there

Turn 5 - 90AD - Vikings land 3 archers and 2 warriors next to Anyang :( . I try putting off the inevitable by buying all their gold and WM for horses. Decide its a battle we cannot win (at the moment) so gift them Anyang :blush: . We have several other island towns they can just waltz into so we will not benefit from fighting, further we have almost no defences on our core - sorry guys seems like I'm the first to lose a city.

Turn 6 - 110AD - I dont renew rop with Greece - we are free to attack if thats the go

Turn 7 - 130AD - Vikings land 3 warriors and archers at Shantung - I gift this as well :mad:

Turn 8 - 150AD - Greece learns mono - we are due next turn - guess I should have researched Engineering. 05 lib -> harb

Turn 9 - 170AD - Vikings land 2 archers outside Macou - I had rushed a reg spear there - they will attack next turn so I cross my fingers. I also get ROP so their rep really stinks (they even pay me for it)

Turn 10 190AD - Spear holds flawlessly against first archer, then loses flawlessly to second - Macou razed :mad: Kansas City founded (following red dot plan in post 201)

I have micromanaged workers and tiles for this turn. We are at risk of viking attack at our core. I brought 2 horses to northern part of core to control barbs - I suggest bringing all horses south and leave archers to defend northern parts. I think we need to get peace from Vikings before attacking Greece. Several suggestions - ? ally English by giving them mono - down side of this is it locks us into 20 turns of war. Alt ? give vikings mono as soon as they will talk peace.

Note Japan weak - falling to Romans - only 4 cities left. Rome look to be becoming a superpower. Vikings 2nd biggest overseas threat, though they are backward. English have crap land and I dont see them becoming a major force. We are currently trading lux with Romans. We would not want Vikings allying Romans or we may be attacked from both east and west.

Any suggestions?

Roster
Andronicus - just played
IstariAsuka - up next
Symphony D - ? avail yet
stagnate
Own - skipped last round
Abegweit

PS. We are now eligible to read and post in the first spoiler.

Good giving away decision, it will probably flip back, cause IIRC we're culturally awesome?

Are we connected to the other islands?

I found that if you upload the pics or save to the index of uploads, other teams can look without being found out. Always use the attachment system.

Good giving away decision, it will probably flip back, cause IIRC we're culturally awesome?

Are we connected to the other islands?

I found that if you upload the pics or save to the index of uploads, other teams can look without being found out. Always use the attachment system.

We are well behind culturally - Greece is the cultural giant

How do you mean connected? - they are islands so no land bridge - you should be able to get an idea from the minimap in my attachment

Whats the index of uploads? - I have only uploaded screenies of Athens @ 10AD and our continent @ 190AD - the link at the top is a shortcut to our save submission for next player to download. Are you saying we shouldnt upload any screenies for our thread?

I mean land connected. I don't have my glasses, so I can't tell if that's land or water there :crazyeye: .

At the bottom of the screen, there's a button that says "upload file" and that's what you did for the save, not the screenies.

No there is no land connection. We are on the biggest isle with Greece and China (they only have one on this isle - on the northern iron). Next is the Roman . Jap isle only slightly smaller with Japs down to just 4 cities. English have next largest but it is crappy jungle almost everywhere and has 1 or 2 Viking cities in the south. When I est embassy with England London was producing 3spt and due to build ToA in over 40 turns already about 2/3 of the way there. Vikings have a decent sized island then there is a number of smaller isles including China's iron and capital on one and 2 isles which Vikings razed and were gifted our cities, Greece also has a few island cities

With the save, I submitted it to the submissions page and then followed the instructions to right click on the shortcut pasting it to the top of my post - I'm not sure what you are suggesting I ought to have done but this is the instructions on the submissions page - I admit I find it all rather confusing.

Got the save, expect me to finish today or tomorrow (weekend, woot!).

ARGH.

So I was playing and writing up my turn log here as I went when I lost power ~ 6 turns in. So, yeah, I had to reload from the autosave from the turn before (the autosave for that turn got corrupted). And I lost my turn log. Basically, though, not too much happened.

I bribed England and China into war with Vikings.

260 AD
Got Theology (took 4 turns), set to Education (will only take 4 turns due to massive scientists).
Start Sistine's chapel in 01 as a prebuild.

270 AD
MMing.

280 AD
MMing.

290 AD
MMing.

300 AD
Got Education (took 4 turns), set to Astronomy.
Greeks Got Theology.
Traded Theology + World Map to England for Engineering + 34GP

---Saved at this point so I can get feedback from you guys.---

Romans are willing to trade 128GP + 14GPT + Monarchy + Silks + World Map + Alliance vs Vikings for Education... and interesting idea. We really do need the money to continue our current research pace.

Astronomy is going to take 6 turns basically no matter what--we don't have enough money to get it down to 5. We can get rid of some of our scientists (or change them to tax collectors), lower tech slider a bit, and get it in 7 turns at a (small) positive income.

Losing one turn of research seems better than trading away Education. Especially since this will also allow us to eliminate a few of our scientists, who can go back to actually working tiles.

What do you guys think?

Oh, and BTW, Vikings are willing to trade away one city for peace--provided its one of their crappy cities. Though I don't see us doing that now and breaking our treaties, in ~12 turns this could be a nice way to get a foothold on another continent.

Romans are willing to trade 128GP + 14GPT + Monarchy + Silks + World Map + Alliance vs Vikings for Education... and interesting idea. We really do need the money to continue our current research pace

Take it :D .

The thing is that I'm not sure prolonging the war with the Vikings for another ~8 turns is a smart move at this point.

Romans are willing to trade 128GP + 14GPT + Monarchy + Silks + World Map + Alliance vs Vikings for Education... and interesting idea. We really do need the money to continue our current research pace.Excellent! Can we get the deal w/o alliance?

Excellent! Can we get the deal w/o alliance?
Yes, we can.

I'm just wary about trading away a monopoly tech for 408GP and silks--to the strongest AI, even.

However, that seems to be the consensus, so unless somebody else chimes in before I continue the game later tonight or tomorrow, I'll make the trade (with the alliance). Rome needs to expend themselves a little, they're getting really powerful, so if I do the trade I'm gonna get them involved. Slowing down their tech pace in this way may even make up for giving them a tech.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_AD0350_01.SAV

---------------------------------------------------

300 AD
Trade Education to Rome for stuff previously mentioned.

Could trade Education to get Greece involved as well, but I think it's prudent to leave them be. They won't be able to afford to buy Education from Rome for awhile, and I want them as far behind us tech-wise as possible when the time comes to destroy them.

Set tech to 100, make a fair number of scientists, will get Astronomy in 5. -28 GPT.

310 AD
Not much.

320 AD
Greece randomly gets a ton of gold. I can't resist, and we need it to research. So, I trade Education to them for wines, 44 GP, and 13 GPT. (If I didn't do this deal I'm sure they'd have bought it from Rome in a turn or two.)

The only city Vikings will give us for peace, if we ever make it, happens to be on England's continent. Very convenient. May be even worth breaking our treaty to get before they change their minds? I'll leave that for the next player to decide.

330 AD
Manage to get us to +8 GPT.

340 AD
Nothing out of the usual MMing.

350 AD
Got Astronomy (took 5 turns). Set to Banking (5 turns) because computers will be researching Invention. I figure this way we can get to the IA faster, by having them research something. If they can do it in less than 9 turns they'll save us a bit of time.

Copernicus due in 01 in 17 turns.

---------------------------------------------------

For the next player:

I have not changed any of the sliders or specialists around this turn at all. I doubt you'll want to leave them as-is now that we've started on a new tech, so make sure to take a look.

We have 8 turns left with England and China, 15 with Rome, and 17 with Greece in our treaties. All treatiest except the one with Greece involve war against the Vikings.

---------------------------------------------------

http://narya.lenharth.org/~philipl/Civ/SGOTM/Map_350AD.jpg

Just checking, is 001 are highest commerce city?

Another thing, we might want to switch to commie later on (or not, I don't know) so is it wise to be ICSing like that?

Just checking, is 001 are highest commerce city?

Another thing, we might want to switch to commie later on (or not, I don't know) so is it wise to be ICSing like that?

I have no experience with communism but I gather your comment is in relation to spreading the corruption. My feeling is this may make our core cities less productive - but again I have no experience here.
If we wish to switch to commmunism later we can abandon those extra ICS cities (they should not build any improvements except those with less than full production - eg the 2 south of ECB). Meanwhile these cities help reduce our unit support costs and provide quite a number of scientists. It should be possible to cram in an extra 20 or so cities supporting an extra 20 units and 40 scientists per turn with grass all irrigated.
Communism is a optional tech so going for it would slow research pace, although it may become avail in a trade - I feel we dont have to make a decision till then.

Yes, commie does hurt out core just a little, but it makes our entire empire just as productive as our core. The only question is, is it worth 8 anarchy turns? That I dont know.

Alright, move is mostly completed. I'll try and get it played through tomorrow. If not, then it will most definitely be up on Tuesday. No mistakes this time. :scan:

[EDIT] Life happens. :rolleyes: Make that Wednesday (today).

TURNLOG:
Turn 00 / 350 AD - Preflight check: cannot lower research time for Banking from 5 turns to 4 even through conversion of all specialists to scientists (excepting 01), and we're at 100% Research. Checking around, turning more citizens into specialists doesn't help if it's at all reasonable. Some research facilities coming online soon (libraries mostly) but it seems prudent to boost cash, rush libraries, and make the next tech faster. Changing some scientists to taxmen keeps Banking in 5, but improves GPT from +9 to +31. 5 turns of this will be 155 gold, some of which can be used to rush libraries in the interim. Micromanage 01's Copernicus down to 15 turns from 17. Cash rush a library in 04 for fish access (necessary due to MMing of 01).

On another note: Vikings are willing to give us any 2 of the following 3 cities for peace: Molde, Stavanger, and Bodo. Stavanger is on the Viking mainland. Not much good as it'd screw our reputation. Greece is willing to offer WM, 22 GPT, and 44 GP for Astronomy, but it's a Monopoly tech and war with them should be our next priority, so... into the breach. IBT 02 and 04 complete Libraries. Put both on Marketplaces. We need cash and Universities are hella expensive right now.
Turn 01 / 360 AD - Look at lowering Research time after Library construction - still not possible. Do some more micromanaging - lower Research to 90% and adjust some Scientists and Taxmen to get +43 GPT (100% with more taxmen would've been +39 GPT). Move workers around. Prioritize Settler builds - we have little room left and a whole lot of settlers processing. We'll need these for Greece for sure, but it seems premature. 10 or so would be enough to get a good chunk of Greece once needed, 1 is already produced and enroute, and 2 more can be squeezed in. 13 total. Tally shows we have 16 producing. Trim the slowest (Shanghai [20], 10 [24], Kansas City [16]), convert first two to workers, third to Library. Everything else looks OK. End turn.
Turn 02 / 370 AD - Rush Courthouse in 14 - only 12 GP, saves 3 turns. Move units here and there, not much interesting. Greeks have Chivalry. They offer Chivalry, WM, 23 GPT, and 111 GP for Astronomy. No point considering we have no iron. End turn. IBT 06 completes Library.
Turn 03 / 380 AD - Cash Rush Library in 03. More MMing - 55 GPT, same research time. 16 Founded. Further MMing - 63 GPT. Yet more MMing - 64 GPT. Stabilize some ICS cities in population. Shift 04, 06, and 14 to Archers - we're going to need a lot more units to kill Greece. Not much else occurs - workers beginning to run out of tasks. Start some on fortifying the coast. IBT 03 completes Library. Athens completes Sun Tzu's Art of War - excellent prize in an upcoming war.
Turn 04 / 390 AD - Not much happens. MM to get 74 GPT. Green light to next turn. IBT China offers to trade WM - they'll give us 10 Gold, but why bother? We learn Banking, go to Invention as a place holder until can check with the AIs.
Turn 05 / 400 AD - Check with AI - none have Invention. Rush University in 05. Go for Printing Press as a throw-away tech to buy stuff with. Due in 4 turns with +94 GPT.
Turn 06 / 410 AD - 17 founded. Don't think and miss an opportunity to found 18. Rush Aquaduct in Buffalo.
Turn 07 / 420 AD - 18 founded. MMing has us at 72 GPT.
Turn 08 / 430 AD - 19 and 20 founded. Rush a Library in Xinjian. MMing gets us to 97 GPT. Everything looks good. Next turn. IBT Vikings and English sign a peace treaty. Deal with Chinese against Vikings comes up for renewal - decline it.
Turn 09 / 440 AD - Nobody has Invention; the AI sucks. Research Invention. +43 GPT in 4 Turns MM'd. Most of the North on Libraries (Courthouses do little good right now, we have sufficient workers for now - more would just drain the economy and occupy troop slots). Middle on Settlers for post-invasion Settling (10 should be good - 4 currently). Core finishing up infrastructure before switching to Archers and Trebuchets. End turn. IBT Vikings offer peace - no deal. English offer Territory Map swap - add 2 Gold to their side and accept.
Turn 10 / 450 AD - Nobody has Invention; the AI really sucks. There has been absolutely no technological innovation except Chivalry. See no room for improvement right now - advise overview on preflight for next player.

NOTES:
Next objective should be war with Greece and domination of the continent. Our primary means of attack will basically be Trebuchets and Archers. Once 05 and 02 finish their Marketplaces should probably be put on Archers. Same for Buffalo and 08 after they finish their infrastructure. Advise a force of perhaps 30 Archers, 15 to 20 Trebuchets. Primary method of attack should be from Xinjian (fortress city) to Athens to secure Sun Tzu's and Wines, then north to Corinth to secure Iron. I would say 2/3 of the strike force (approx 20 Archers, 10 Trebuchets) should be dedicated to this, with 1/3 (10 Archers, 5 Trebuchets) going along the east coast (Sparta to Thermopylae). A small reserve force should also be used to take Delphi, though it seems fairly lightly defended. Buildup for this should take 1 - 2 more player rotations.

Regarding Scandinavia, it may be possible to wrangle Stavanger out of them once treaty with Rome ends, in which case we have a base in their homeland.

Invention will finish in 3 turns. Copernicus' will finish in 4 turns (maybe shorter once workers finish a forest - probably not). I suggest putting in a prebuild for Newton's and then going up the research chain for it. I think this turn set demonstrates the AI is fairly worthless for research at this point and shouldn't even be bothered with. Printing Press can be sold for little consequence.

Longer term, I suggest Communism - our core is tiny and making our entire empire productive is vastly more useful than having a handful of decent cities. Plus, if we secure Stavanger, that might make it a useful production city to begin harassment of the Vikings early. No units should be on automove, but there might be an archer or worker here or there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/SGOTM8-OWN-MM0450.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/SGOTM8-OWN-CM0450.JPG)
(Click to enlarge)

SAVE AT 450 AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm8/Own_SG008_AD0450_01.SAV)

ROSTER
Andronicus - n/a
IstariAsuka -n/a
Symphony D. - Just Played
stagnate - Up Next
Own - On Deck?
Abegweit - n/a

Interesting times - I think you did a great MM job with boosting of science

I note your approach of getting Stavanger in peace treaty then building force in there once in communism - communism will not be avail for a long time and my experience with the cities we got from China in peace treaty was to be attacked before had any chance to build a force

Do we really need 30 archers? The longer we delay attacking Greece the more vet hoplites they will have. The approach needs to be, I think, redlining them with trebs then using archers or horses to kill - horses have advantage of chance of retreating plus more usefullness if later upgraded to provide a mobile force to defend our shores

Re unis - we will soon be in our GA - a good time to build unis then banks? (although may have to finish war with Greece first)

Will get it tonight.

I agree that horses will be preferable to archers, and we'll need trebs to do some damage.

With repub we will be able to rush at least one defensive unit in a city on the viking mainland, and I think that will be ok as long as we don't get them really mad at us. A single defender (even a warrior) makes a big difference.

Regardless, we won't be launching an attack against the vikings for awhile; we don't want to go up against their UU until we get calvary.

Longer term, I suggest Communism

I agree, we should disband some cities in the ICS region, cause with that many cities, space will be cramped and corruption worse.

While I doubt that communism will pay, this is a long-term decision which does not have to be made now. At this point we need the scientists in the ISC region to help with our research while the core builds infrastructure. At this moment, we should be continuing to build more cities, not taking them down.

I agree for now, I'm saying we should disband some when we get to commie. Is everything over there irrigated? If not it should be for lots of scientists.

Copernicus's! :goodjob:

Interesting times - I think you did a great MM job with boosting of science
Thanks. :)

Do we really need 30 archers? The longer we delay attacking Greece the more vet hoplites they will have. The approach needs to be, I think, redlining them with trebs then using archers or horses to kill - horses have advantage of chance of retreating plus more usefullness if later upgraded to provide a mobile force to defend our shores
I initially thought of Horsemen over Archers too, but on further analysis, decided in favor of Archers for three reasons:

1.) They're cheaper (20 vs. 30 shields). We can crank out a lot more of them than we can Horsemen. Given Greece has Iron and therefore military superiority, we need as many units as we can get to take them down. Plus if our core goes back to Infrastructure and the North gets put on troops, those scientist farms can turn out Archers way easier than Horsemen.
2.) They're just as strong (2 Attack). Although they can't retreat, their defensive bombard will be useful on defense while advancing.
3.) Since we're going to need artillery (Trebuchets) to crack Greece, our movement is going to be limited to 1 Square/Turn inside their territory anyway, and Horsemen can't attack multiple times - their only strength is movement (negated by totting artillery) and retreating.

I think it's better to have 3x 2 Attack units for 60 shields than 2x 2 Attack units for 60 Shields when better movement will only be useful for getting to the front. Retreat is useful but it serves little purpose if we have too few units to win, and have to retreat only to be counterattacked by say, Knights, and annihilated.

I could go either way though depending on what the team thinks, but this was my logic at the time. When faced with a technologically (at least in units...) superior opponent, numbers is the way to go. Using cashflow to upgrade our existing Catapults to Trebuchets should likely be a high priority.

While I doubt that communism will pay, this is a long-term decision which does not have to be made now. At this point we need the scientists in the ISC region to help with our research while the core builds infrastructure. At this moment, we should be continuing to build more cities, not taking them down.
Considering Communism can make an entire continent productive as opposed to a mere region, I think it will pay for itself many, many times over. Having your whole empire be your "core" is terribly powerful if it's well developed. That said, it is a long term decision (but not that long - a direct bee-line toward it (with 4 turns per tech, somewhat unreasonable) is 35 turns. More realistically it'll perhaps be 45 - we could reach it before I come up again if we dedicate ourselves), and not important to reach a decision on now. I do agree that for right now we should continue ICS in the north (all possible positions are taken though - so we're stockpiling Settlers at the moment), but would like to note the core is the only thing capable of building troops with any speed right now.

If we're going to beat klarius and Wacken, we need to kill Greece, ASAP. And that takes troops. If we're going to keep the core on infrastructure, and start shifting the north to military, then Archers are definitely the way to go as the lower shields will definitely help given all the cities up there are irrigated.

I agree for now, I'm saying we should disband some when we get to commie. Is everything over there irrigated? If not it should be for lots of scientists.
Pretty much the entire north is irrigated. Our workers will run out of things to do in the next turn set unless they go south and mine the mountains that divide the country or start fortressing the whole coast or something. Some still need to grow, but a lot have good scientist cadres.

On another note, anybody interested in putting up an entry for the spoiler page?

[EDIT] Once we get Invention, Longbowmen will be our most powerful attack unit. Getting a bunch of Archers and using our economy to then upgrade them would seem prudent considering Archers are really cheap...

You know guys, I think I have to bow out. I really am not focused on the game and have become apathetic about civ games overall. I don't think I can put the necessary attention into MM and strategy.

Sorry to drop you, but I think that's better than playing a half-hearted turn.

Note this isn't because we are in a bad position; I actually like the look of things. If it were a personal game I'd probably set it down for a few months and then come back to it.

Goodbye stagnate :wavey:

AlanH, the fall of Team Own last SGOTM was losing players. Perhaps we could recruit someone else not involved in SGOTM?

Our workers will run out of things to do in the next turn set unless they go south and mine the mountains that divide the country or start fortressing the whole coast or something. Some still need to grow, but a lot have good scientist cadres.




Could we add workers to core cities to increase productivity there - esp slow growing cities? Ideally all these cities should be running at size 12.

Good idea, though in order for a lot of those cities to support 12 pop, local terrain will have to be reworked (for example, 03 IIRC is already starving at size 7). So sending the bulk of the worker force south may be prudent.

You know guys, I think I have to bow out. I really am not focused on the game and have become apathetic about civ games overall. I don't think I can put the necessary attention into MM and strategy.

Sorry to drop you, but I think that's better than playing a half-hearted turn.

Note this isn't because we are in a bad position; I actually like the look of things. If it were a personal game I'd probably set it down for a few months and then come back to it.

Thanks for your contribution to date and thanks for your consideration in not playing " a half-hearted turn". :beer:

Feel welcome to return if the civ bug bites

Good idea, though in order for a lot of those cities to support 12 pop, local terrain will have to be reworked (for example, 03 IIRC is already starving at size 7). So sending the bulk of the worker force south may be prudent.

Yes you're correct - I forgot when I worked out how the core cities could be supported at size 12 I was allowing for most to have
a) expanded and
2) built harbour

Aye, best of luck stagnate - there'll be a place for you if you want to return!

Also, we could probably shift some builds in the core to harbors - all the core cities have libraries and expanded radii now, IIRC.