This should be about some sort of analysis. Just for kicks I'll start it off with something that I've already done.

EDIT:::This is all of the information out of the F11 screen. It seems that whoever is Persia (or the Hittites) has pulled an early worker out on turn 8. That means that they probably have less military. You can also gather from the populations of the towns & the military service that Greece has at least one military scout.

The yellow is where we are in second, orange is third and red is 4th. The white sections we are in 1st place. I don't know how civ handles a tie but I'm assuming that it'll will give us 1st if we are tied. In the greatest cities screen we have been at the top since the beginning.

I think it would be easiest to keep track if people would gather this info when they are playing the save.

It doesn't matter. It took me about 10 minutes to go through the saves. All I did was open them up and hit f11 then I just exited and repeated with the next save.

I'll post my detailed anaylsis later today and how I came to some of these conclusions.

Approval rating: This one's easy. The percentage of your people that are happy. If every single person is happy, you have 100%. If everyone is content it is 50%. Edit: This can be misleading when you get specialists, because the specialists count as only content people. So even if everyone is happy or an entertainer, you won't have 100% approval rating if you have any specialists.

Population: Add up all the population you get from the city view from all your cities. Not population points, like size 1, 2 or 3, etc. but the 10,000 or 100,000 you see under the city name.

GNP: Total gold in all your cities before corruption takes a bite out of it.
1 gold= 1 million

Mfg. Goods: Total unwasted shields in all your cities.
1 shield = 1 megaton.

Land Area: # of tiles in your territory * 100.
1 Tile =100 square miles
Sea is included in this, but does not help in the territory part of your game score.

Literacy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a library, university, AND research lab. If every city has just a library you will have 33%, because they are missing the other 2 science buildings.

Or live in a city with 1 or more scientific Great Wonders (Great Library, Newtons, SETI, Theory of Evolution, Cure for Cancer, and Internet) Copernicus's does not count because despite it helps science, it isn't given the scientific flag. Having 1 of those wonders counts the same as if they had all the other improvements in the city. Two small wonders (apollo and Intelligence Agency) give you credit for having 50% science in that city. You also get 3% added to your literacy rate when you get the literature tech. No bonus when you get education. Great Library still helps your literacy rate even after it is obsolete.

Disease: % of the tiles in your territory that is floodplains or jungle.

Pollution: # of tiles that are currently polluted.

Life expectancy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a granary, aqueduct, AND hospital. Minimum is 20, maximum is 99.

Family Size: The average amount of excess food that each city is producing/2. If you have 1 city that is producing 4 extra food, that 4 food would feed 2 people, so your family size would be 2 children. Minimum is 1, hard to say exactly what the max would be. In most cases you won't see this above 2, maybe 3 or 4 if all your cities are extremely rich in food, experiencing a very fast growth period or just put down a alot of railroads on irrigated tiles.

Military Service: 10 years * # of military units / # of citizens. Military units are units with an attack and defense value, so workers, scouts and princesses don't count. Kings do. So at the start of a mass regicide game you will have a military service of 70 years because of the 7 military units *10 years divided by just your 1 citizen. 0 years if you have no army or you have just a few units, but thousands of population points.

Annual Income: The number of connected strategic/luxury resource types in your territory. The minimum value is 1 and you get a +1 bonus for your first trade route with another civ. Thanks DaveMcW

Productivity: The total amount of uncorrupted gold, unwasted shields, and excess food you are producing in all your cities.
Deductions from spreadsheet in post 1.
It seems that whoever is Persia (or the Hittites) has pulled an early worker out on turn 8. That means that they probably have less military. The population went up to 2 in turn 7 then the next turn the population went back to 1. Since it is way to early to get a settler, the only pop-reducing unit is a worker
The above can also mean that they were hit with disease. or a barb attack that killed citizens
Greece (MIA) and Dancing Banana (TNT)has at least one military scout since turn 6In turn 5 we were #1 in military service @ 1 pop & 1 military scout. In turn 6, Simpleton went to pop 2 decreasing our military service to 5. Springfield experienced the population increase and if they were tied in turn 5 then they should have been tied in turn 6 too. That leaves teams MIA & TNT with higher military service with 1 military & 1 pop than our 1 military & 2pop. In turn 7, TNT grew to 2 decreasing their military service moving us up to 2nd place. In turn 8, Athens grew to 2 decreasing their military service and we produced our second military unit so we moved back into 1st place for either of the reasons just mentioned.
We can't tell is what units Doughnut is producing due to the same pop growth.
In turn 8, someone had a lux connected or TNT forgot to lower their lux slider after pop loss.we had 75% approval (1 happy, 1 content). Currently the only possible number higher is 100% (all citizens are happy).

I guess I'm the only geek in this team. :blush: Oh well. it pays well. I'll update the attachment in post 1 when I get home in about 3-4 hours.

Tubby are you telling me I'm not exhibiting geek tendencies? I'm offended.
My goal is to one day gain full geek/idiot/dork status.

I just noticed something. I guess we can forget about the approval rating giving us any useful info since I'm getting the info at the beginning of the turn. We are the only team in the position to get much usefulness out of this info as the other teams are in mid-turn and can't get our information for city size and such.

Anyway, more deductions out of turn 10,

we have the best growth since we are obviously the only civ with a 3 pop city. Our family size is at 1 but if you look at the productivity we have 3 extra food. This was before IroP played too. So this could have changed after the MM. Either TNT or Doughnut have 2 military because we are 3rd in military service. That means that one of the other teams have either 5 (1 military for 2 pop) or 0 (no military). If TNT & Doughnut have 2 military then MIA have 0

I'm going to be very curious about the next turn since all cities should expand if the teams didn't move on their first turn. Also it might give us a feel for any other food bonuses or luxes that might have been in the starting 21 (not in the starting 9) that the teams might have connected waiting for culture.

updated the pic in post 1 for turn 11. someone has 3 tiles that are either jungle or FP. -> We are in 2nd and only have 2. Everyone should have expanded so the percentages should match. If we jump back into the lead next turn then someone moved on their first turn. two of the teams either have trade route (not probable yet) or have 1 lux connected since last turn (which explains why we have been at the bottom since last turn in approval ratings) -> Annual income's minimum is 1 (ours). If you have a trade route open to a civ you get +1 (again not probable yet). You also get an increase if you have a strategic or lux resource connected.
that's all for now. I have to get ready for work :(

So here's the demograph for the geeks to figure

Edit: demograph removed

FYI: if anyone takes a screenshot of the F11 screen please do so @ the beginning to keep everything from the same time frame.

BTW, thanks for the screenie Dag. You can delete it as I have the data I need & the pic is updated

two of the teams either have trade route (not probable yet) or have 1 lux connected since last turn (which explains why we have been at the bottom since last turn in approval ratings) -> Annual income's minimum is 1 (ours). If you have a trade route open to a civ you get +1 (again not probable yet). You also get an increase if you have a strategic or lux resource connected.
Actually, we're in last place in that category, so all 3 teams have a lux hooked up, right? Once we get the wines hooked up, if we're still in last place, then we know they they probably have two luxes (at this point, like you said, it's highly unlikely that any two teams will have a trade route together yet).

Actually, we're in last place in that categoryAre you sure? I'm at work & can't open civ right now so I can't check. I thought that we were in 3rd place (implying that another team didn't have hooked up lux). If we are indeed in last place then yes your deduction would be correct.

Are you sure? I'm at work & can't open civ right now so I can't check. I thought that we were in 3rd place (implying that another team didn't have hooked up lux). If we are indeed in last place then yes your deduction would be correct.
Is that red or orange in turns 10 and 11 of Annual Income? I'm slightly color-blind, so maybe it really is orange. You said red means we're in last, orange for 3rd.

It is orange (3rd) and red is indeed 4th. What colors can you distinguish well & I'll update the colors. Color-blindness is why I didn't put green on 1st place.

Is there any red on the chart at all? If so, then the red and orange look exactly alike...On the chart, I see white squares, yellow squares, and orange (red to me) squares.

If you change either either red or orange to something completely different like blue or green, that should be fine.

Purple and blue I have trouble distinguishing sometimes, too.

I just noticed that the Annual income has been second since turn 4. So either of the two are true
1. Persia(TNT), who is IND, has a lux connected -> move, road, road
2. Someone else started on a lux and moved the settler while the worker started the road.

My bet is on 1.

I'm going to start moving the pic with the conversation, so here it is

EDIT::::
white = 1st place
yellow = 2nd
blue = 3rd
red = 4th

Ah, thanks Tubby, I can definitley see that. :D

That's some good reasoning. I'd bet on number 1, too. We have a lux right next to us, so I'm sure at least someone else does, too.

I'm waiting to see what happens when we connect our wines. If we go to first, that means at least 3 of us have a lux hooked up, but if we're still not in first, either some people started with 2 luxes, or 2 people have a trade route already.

2 people have a trade route alreadyvery doubtful because if so then they will merge into one civ fairly quickly.

Remember wines have been changed by Rik and are 0 food + 2 commerce instead of 1 food + 1 commerce.
I find it hard to believe any of the team have met. My guess is they've hooked up luxs and may not have some of the BG's or something. Great work Tubby.

Impressive work Tubbs.

Tubby is there any way I can use that spreadsheet? I am doing the Intersite Demogame at CDZ and that spreadsheet is awesome. I will put your name in my signature as the developer of said "great sheet". If I can could you send it to the team email.

It's just a plain excel spreadsheet. I put all of the headings to the left and just fill in the info from f11 screen. I then go back and use the fill button to colorize it (looks like a bucket of paint spilling). The hardest part is the info that you can come up with from looking at the data.

I'll make up a dummy one to send to you. But you'll have to enter the data & colorize it. That's not automatic.

Ok here it is. I added comments to the headings on the left side to aid in some analysis.

I'll leave it up for a few weeks then I'll take it down. Just to let you know, being last to play a turn makes this spreadsheet the most useful. Otherwise some teams will be on turn X and others will be on turn X-1. In this game we are in a good spot to get useful info out of this data.

How much this info matters for later in the game I don't know yet as this is the first time that I've done such an analysis.

Tubby - Great analysis. Great deductions.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

OK got it. Update spreadsheet below....
Doughnut spawned a settler, obviously. Not so obvious, they only have 1 military. -> due to the drop in our rank in Military Service, they will have a greater number down there when pop is lost. TNT & MIA are growing every 5th turn. same as us, but we're ahead in pop. all of the other teams now have a lux connected.

I can't open civ until I get home from work. If some one could provide the information out of the F11 screen from save 13, I could update the spreadsheet. If not, then I'll get it when I get home this afternoon.

I checked the city screen and the shields from the chop was already in there. So instead of 23 for the end of turn for turn 12 it was actually 33 shields accumulated. hmmmm....

Anyway here is the F11 from turn13. It was before the citizen was moved from the BG to the forest. After the move we should have been 1st but I'll leave it as it since the rest of the data was "untouched" from the beginning of the turn.

Not much to report this go round.

Doughnut spawned a settler, obviously. That is poor headwork on their part. Their production is going to be damaged long term. Much better to go 5=>3, or 6=>4. 3=>1 is crippling.

Apparently according to the turn tracker in the main forum they've already settled, Shelbyville (Simpsons theme if you don't know). That's 2 moves & then settle. If they had a road then they're settling CxxC. If the settler traveled 2 roads then CxxxC. I doubt that they are settling @ CxC which would require travelling in a direction with no roads.

Yeah, I 've tried an early settler before. It's hard to get the capital back up and running. Sure your military gets a better start but I don't know if it is worth it. With this being a small map and only 4 civs instead of 6 there should be plenty of space to fill and an early archer rush (or Mounted Warrior rush) isn't going to be effective.

They started with Pottery so they had the opportunity to build the granary, so they can't use that arguement. At least I wouldn't. Since the map was set up so that no one has an advantage, I'd assume that all teams have a potential 4 turn settler factory. If not, :evil: :D.

I just looked at the difference between when we get out our first settler and when doughnut got theirs out. It was 9 turns. 9 turns is exactly the length of time that it took for our granary to get up. This might sound scary due to the fact that they are going to have 9 extra turns for their second city to be building military & such but they are starting back over with 1 pop. Our granary started the turn before we were @ pop 3.

So looking into my crystal ball. Either our second settler will produced quicker or they will severely have hampered their production by producing a second settler without the benefit of a granary. I'm surprised that the other two teams hadn't got a settler out. Neither of them started with pottery so no granary for them unless they research it first.

TNT kicked a worker I'd think (or disease?). I think the settler could be a fatal mistake by Doughnuts. I'm kind of shocked actually. My assumption is Kuningas and Tomoyo are not contributing quite so much. They probably got lost in the bureaucracy...:D

My bet is on disease for TNT. Unless a worker was planned to delay enough to get Pottery for a granary build.

Yeah I was surprised Tomoyo wasn't in this bunch. I guess he joined at just the wrong time and was slated for a team that wasn't fun to be in ;) .

The only thing that I saw this time was that our family size is at the bottom. That is really not surprising since we are working 2 forests. But it turns out if we weren't we would waste 10 food by not building the granary before growth. The other thing is that our money is down to 2nd. Again. not working roaded squares. our productivity (all gold, shields, & food combined I also assume that Greece is building hoplites or a granary. Depending on how their growth track in the next 5-8 turns we can deduce which it was.

I'm interested to see how quick springfield grows to 2.

Well I didn't have to wait long for the Springfield growth....

It looks like MIA cut back on food this last turn before growth which is why we aren't in last place for family size. TNT jumped to 3-turn growth and are now @ pop 3. I wonder if they have a granary already... nah couldn't be.

You have no idea how amusing this is for someone with access to all 4 fora. Keep it up !!

With "amusing" I do not mean "completely wrong", nor do I mean "spot on". In fact, "amusing" has no correlation to "truth" at all.

Oh great. Thanks Rik. You guys get to see all the good stuff and we're like a bunch of 5 year olds waiting for Santa Claus to come down the chimney. :p

You have no idea how amusing this is for someone with access to all 4 fora. Keep it up !!Does that mean that TNT joined their worker back into their city to fight off the disease? :lol:

Hey Rik, Can you tell us if anyone else is doing such analysis or is that considered cross-contamination?

You have no idea how amusing this is for someone with access to all 4 fora. Keep it up !!
See! that's why I wanted to lurk all the threads!! :mad: ;)

That's ok, I like being stuck with this team. :D

On a serious note, it's always a great help to a SG team to have "calculators" - people that do the numbers. That's why Wacken/Offa always does so good in SGotM.

The most notable thing on this turn is that the Greeks just squeezed out a settler. We went back down in military service which was surprising that we weren't 4th last turn :confused:

Tubby isn't that a worker not a settler?

Wacken/Offa :rotfl: (sorry i've been :beer: )

@ whomp send me a pm to tell me where to go to educate myself so I can make useful, non-sophmoric comments thanks

Tubby isn't that a worker not a settler?
It certainly appears so.

And AK: :rolleyes: :lol:

In reference to the settler vs. worker Here is my thoughts on why it is a settler.

They have been growing every 5th turn. (sorry it was cut off. I'll post a more complete version tomorrow) Turn 11 was the last time they were at 2. This turn they should have been 4. But when the settler was produced at the same time as growth was supposed to happen, then only 1 pop point was trimmed out of Athens.

The same thing will happen to us when we are supposed to grow to 6 we will (should) be producing a settler and instead of going from 5 to 6 the settler's 2 will be subtracted and to the other teams it will appear as a loss of only 1 pop point.

Clear as mud???

OK, I understand. We'll be sure in a few turns. If we become 3rd in land area, we know it was a settler.

Here you go Tubs...

Ok thanks Whomp. It can be deleted now. TNT got a settler out and moved it via road and settled all this turn. They are apparently using CxxC spacing. I guess since Dynopolis is 5th, it surpassed Shelbyville do to being connected to the capital? all teams now have exactly 1 lux connected (annual income went to 1st palce after wines were connected) MIA still haven't settled their settler down since we are still 3rd in land area EDIT::: just saw that our life expectancy went up to 46. Since we are still in first and were last turn too, We can conclude that we are the only civ that has mastered the art of building a stockpile of food (granary)

nothing changed on turn 18 except our population went to 118 from 113. Other than that everything was exactly the same. Since we are still tied for 3rd in land area, I wonder what happened to the settler from MIA???

I wonder what happened to the settler from MIA??? Tripped on a barbed wire or maybe CXXXXXXXXXXXXLUX?

T19 Geeks and Numbers List

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/MTDG/T19_GeekNumbers.jpg

MIA finally found their city 3 turns after producing the settler. (D'Nuts settled 2 turns after production & TNT settled same turn) We are now in last place in GNP (gold before corruption). Not surprising, we only have one city and working only 2 tiles with a road on them Productivity went to last place presumably due to the fact that the other three teams have 2 city centers to pull from too.

If you'll notice that we still have the lead in pop. Even though the pop points lead go to Iroquois. That's probably the reason why they are last in Military Service.

I didn't log a population of the other 2 2nd cities due to the fact that we really don't know. From now on there won't be much that I'll be able to get out of this. But I'll continue to ramble on about things until it's time for Offa's city capture simulator ;)

It looks like D'nut pulled another settler out of Springfield. :shakehead . MIA has grown to 3. I'm wondering if they have Pots to build a granary or not. If not I'd expect them to drop to 2 next turn since more than likely they have built another settler. Our amount of extra food is #1 at 5 food. The other teams must not be using there food bonuses efficiently. Something else I hadn't noticed until now... Our disease is back in first. It happened when Shelbyville grew to 2. hmmm.....how could a growth to 2 pop correlate with more tiles? All that means is that we have more (or the same) percentage of FP/jungle than all of other teams. That could mean that somebody's borders have expanded or that a city has been taken??? That would be great :goodjob: I guess that's it

You don't have to be working the FP/Jungle tile for it to count towards Disease, right? You'd think it would have changed when cities were founded, but it doesn't seem to follow the same pattern.

Btw, GNP says 80. I think you mean 8. ;)

Well 2/21 = 9.5 % And we are only working 1 of our two. I believe that it is ALL FP/jungle tiles as a percentage of all tiles. Our disease changed from 11% to 9% when our borders expanded. We just took back 1st in disease on turn 20. I just checked it and on turn 19 we were 2nd and in 20 we were 1st. Nothing happened on that turn that could cause more tiles (except a border expansion somehow). Maybe someone chopped down a rain forest??? You can't get rid of a FP but you can a jungle... I dunno...

And yes it was 8 not 80. :)

Here's the F11. Get smacked on score but we're cranking settlers now!

Well all of the teams have another settler out and not a single one has a granary. Right now we are behind in military. Either one civ has 3 towns or someone settled so that the borders met up one tile apart and those extra tiles were gainedIn about 4 more turns our expansion is going to fly by the others.

EDIT::: I've updated the list and it should be correct. I went back and got the info at the beginning of the turn and since we didn't have Dunderhead settled at the beginning of this turn we didn't have the 31 tiles that are in Whomp's picture above

I also did up this. We have currently played through turn 24 after that only ours is the only ones there because I don't know what the other teams are thinking. There's no way I'd build two settlers especially if a granary could be built :shakehead:

This is where the action is :band:. Again, great work on the # Tubby. Your tables makes nerve tickling reading. I do feel confident that our patience in building a grany first will pay off big time.

Here's the F11.....

The other teams are renaming their first cities. Both MIA & TNT have done it. I wonder they are trying to confuse us by changing the name. I'm surprised we're still only 2nd in land area. I expect that we'll drop in the next 2 turns to 4th before Ignoramus is settled. After that we should be at the top of the ranks for the forseeable future Our annual income dropped to 2nd. Someone connected a second resource (duplicate lux, different lux or strategic) I think that it's funny that we have the only city that is over 2 pop :lol:

In the research department.... Whomp was asking about the research speed so, according to CAII we have 93 beakers to go. right now @ 80% we are dumping 12 beakers (8 turns overrun of 3 beakers) in the SCI bucket. It should go up as we settle cities. I say just burn it as much as we can, and the most that we will be in deficit is -1 (maintenance on the granary). The more we dump in the bucket now the less we'll have to do later. We can burn 7 turns at the current rate before we have to cut back. Cash right now is useless anyway.

Renaming cities is, IIRC, explicitly prohibited in rules. I'll check later.

Renaming cities is, IIRC, explicitly prohibited in rules. I'll check later.

SANTIONS!!! :aargh: SANTIONS!!! [pissed]

Sorry, :blush: I'm working on a PBEM stand-up routine with immitations. Guess who that was?

2.4 - Misleading through Renaming

Description: No team or individual is permitted to rename a unit or city with the intent of misleading or confusing opponents.

Definition: Cities can be renamed to names of tech or sums of gold or anything else in an effort to not trade what that opponent agreed to. Units can be renamed to other units and appear to be something else entirely.

Purpose: To prevent the misleading or confusion of another team through malicious use of in-game features.

Verdict: Using this 'feature' or any other feature or exploit that allows misleading or confusing another team is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Once – Red (5-Expulsion and forfeiture of double what was not legally traded)
well although I believe the intent is to confuse the other teams, the intent of the rule is like renaming a city to 1000 gpt and then trading it to another team without having to actually give the other team 1000 Gold per turn. OR to rename a modern armor to Warrior so that in a stack it will look like a warrior (except for the A/D stats)

Everything is fine. They might not have expected a city so soon and named them something and then renamed it to better describe a carpet bomb???

Yeah, looks ok and I definetly not wanna go provo(cative) on this. Maybe we should let our UN-rep post a general Q in main thread about it, like:
"Regarding rule 2.4 "Misleading through renaming" Team KISS suggests that all renaming of cities from now on be prohibited. That will prevent any possible disagreement on the matter of intent".

No. Then we can't rename all of the cities that we capture. Let them rename the cities. At most they'll confuse the other 2 teams ;)

@Tubs
Offensive thinking. I like it!

@ other teams have a second resource connected. My money would be on iron (TNT) & horses (D'nut). Which might explain why they are being stupid about produceing settlers before a granary Our military service rose to 3rd place... I wonder why? hmmm... D'nut & either TNT or MIA have 3 cities. The remaining has = or less than our territory.

Our military service rose to 3rd place... I wonder why? hmmm...
Well, someone else founded another city, so that extra citizen must've dropped their Military Service below ours.

Ok this one puzzles me. Our Annual Income is back in first. So does that mean that 2 teams. I'm going to have to research this.....

All three teams have their second settler planted. Donut could have even pulled a settler out of their 2nd city by now. We'll know more after Ignoramus is settled next turn....

Remember that population is power. Every citizen can generate food, gold and shields. We might have more citizens in our two cities then the rest of the world.

SANTIONS!!! SANTIONS!!!

you're missing some c's or crying for portapotties. :)

Follow the noble Bugs. Pop = power.

Dont sweat the early numbers too much, we'll catch up.

Attached are F11 screens in the beginning of turn 28 and in the end, after founding our third city and a little MMing (including dropping lux by 10%).

Interestingly in the beginning of our turn we're #1 in annual income, but at the end we've dropped to third. I'd be tempted to conclude that number of cities plays some kind of a role there. Maybe with the same amount of resources the civ with least amount of cities has the highest rank?

Another interesting point is that even after tripling (from 2 to 6) our FP count, we still only drop to second place in disease category.

you're missing some c's or crying for portapotties. :)



I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is...

If I'm on the diplo team, would bad spelling be recognized for what it is or would it be considerd subterfuge, trying to cover up the real alacrity and subtlety in our thinking? After all, we don't want sanCtions leveled against us :D

Bd spllng s no prblm. Y cn lve out mst f it anwy. I suggest Bede, if online, formulates the proposal if we make one. A lot of celts should have their say on this matter before we do anything so we will have time to sharpen our (pencil)sticks. They might be the pointiest ones after all.

Here's the F11....

And histo.....

I'll write down some of the speculation I brew up in my head during the meeting today.

F8 screen tells us that our 6 people are 24% of the world population. The Greeks have 20% which translates to 5 citizens, while the other continent has a whopping 14. Since the demographics have us at the second place in population I'm tempted to think that they're divided 8-6, perhaps with Persia having more. Their IND worker pair could have covered quite a bit of land by now, making up for the lack of granary. The populations between the continents would be more even if we hadn't just popped a settler though.

Our economy is only second largest and we just dropped out of the first place in shields for the first time in a while, but that's hopefully just temporary. And more workers are on their way to help that situation.

Hmm, I thought I had more on my mind, but I must've forgotten what it was.

What that tells me is that the other three teams are thinking of spawning settlers out of their 2nd and/or 3rd cities. I couldn't fathom how D'nuts will out grow us.

That's the main reason why I suggested pulling settlers out of Jesterton.

Greece was the 3rd to settle that 3rd city (we were last). We might even be beat to the 4th but after that we'll should be the first unless they are going a crazy farmer's gambit

I think that Niko is a little off on pop size..... probably stacks up like this
D'nuts - 7 pop (one 3 pop & one 2 pop city & two 1 pop cities) <- couldn't have a second 3 pop since Carpetbomb (TNT) <2 pop> was listed as the 5th best city in the world
TNT - 7 pop (one 3 pop & two 2 pop cities)
us - 6 pop (one 4 pop & two 1 pop cities)
MIA - 5 pop (confirmed in diplomacy) (two 2 pop & one 1 pop)

Other stuff of note we are growing the fastest over all our disease is now 2nd but went up??? maybe someone on the other continent settled on their dyes or whatever other lux develops in the jungle? How in the world are we 3rd in annual income again?? something is screwy with this stat... It doesn't make sense that we were once at 2 and now are only at 1 only 1 other civ has more land than we do...I'd guess the nuts since they have had they're 1st settler out a long time ago we are 3rd in shields produced, probably due to the pop drop b/c of the settler and the fact that we are working a FP wheat with Ignoramus

I think they were a bit surprised to find out we knew how many citizens they had. Great job to the geek department. You guys gave us an edge in the negotiations. :thumbsup:

Don't know if anyone has mentioned that we should be careful about what we name our threads here. Anyone perusing 'who's online' can see the title of the thread someone is viewing

mutually exclusive with MIA gives away info

no not really. If you look at someone who is viewing their private forum it'll say "Viewing thread @ such and such time" instead of "Viewing thread Dept. Of G& N @ such and such time". I've been "Stalking" people. not for any good reason, just to see if people are getting ready to play their turn or not. ;)

Maybe cause I was "stalking" one of our team members, it let me see the title?

I'm sorry I hadn't updated the F11 spreadsheet. I feel slightly responsible for the disease. I know that it is a "random" event but since it cam eon my turns I just feel bad about it. But as I was updating the spreadsheet, I realized that if this would have happened to another team, they more than likely would not have been able to recover as quick as we could and can.

What really surprises me is that our productivity just now decreased in rank. last turn it was still first. That tells me that we are not THAT far behind. That granary that we have invested in is paying dividends as we recover from this horrible black plague. Luckily our primitive Center for Disease Control has stemmed the tide and we should be growing from here on out.


Due to Shelbyville never coming back to the surface in the rankings that tells me that D'nuts have been either pulling workers or settlers out of there. I'm not quite sure which since the other continent has more pop than ours. workers will immediately account for the greater number but settlers will grow very quick.

Well TNT is still pulling settlers out of the capital. I expect MIA & D'nuts to follow suit in the next turn or two.

I noticed when playing the game that TNT's score is significantly higher than the other teams
D'nut - 132
TNT - 151
Mia - 129
Us - 126

I feel slightly responsible for the disease. I know that it is a "random" event but since it cam eon my turns I just feel bad about it.
Well, if you're going to take the blame for the disease, then you MUST take the credit both for finding beavers and the MIA border. :D

Maybe we should check the trend on the scores. That is more important. The Russian PBEM we were initially behind and are now exploding past them in score with all 3 players of our players beating their Russian comparable.

Maybe we should check the trend on the scores. That is more important. I'll work on that over the next day or so.

I noticed when playing the game that TNT's score is significantly higher than the other teams
D'nut - 132
TNT - 151
Mia - 129
Us - 126

Question 1 - On the spread sheed, is the 57 per cent approval rating our rating or the rating for all participants?

Q2 - Is everything below the approval rating our numbers?

If you have covered this eval before please direct me to the the place to find it. Thanks
BB :crazyeye:

Approval rating is specific to our citizens. However it's really not an important stat.

The key is to check the F1 screen. We can adjust the smiley face slider (aka lux slider) to make sure the citizens are happy enough. As many happy as sad is the minimum.

IE you need (at least) as many happy citizens as sad citizens where content citizens are neutral to avoid civil disorder in that city.
2 happy/1 content/ 2 sad is fine
but 1 happy/2 content/2 sad is not ( 1 happy and 2 sad will create civil disorder). This would be the time where you use the lux slider to make the citizens in that city happier. The higher you move it the happier they become.

I believe Simpleton requires that slider to be somewhere between 20-30% at the moment depending on city size.

This explains the demographics page...
Check this out for the demographics (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/demographics.php)

Maybe we should check the trend on the scores. That is more importantAsk and you shall receive. My assumption is that D'nuts are ahead in territory and TNT is ahead in pop

That is sweet Tubs!

If we placed our dyes settler our numbers would be even better. I like the trend and once that factory is up and running we'll be in great shape!


err...I must lead the league in new nicknames. Whompus Maximus :D Nice. I've used "cattawhomp" in some sg's if any one needs to use it. :p

If we placed our dyes settler our numbers would be even better. I like the trend and once that factory is up and running we'll be in great shape!If you'll notice that we've been closing in on both MIA & D'Nuts. The fact that TNT is so big compared to D'nut we might want to side with them on the the other continent. Our partner CANNOT (empasis added ;) )lose the war over there. If they do then it'll be 2 on 1 in the late Middle Ages.

Well we're getting back on track. Here are the numbers from turn 34

Here comes #'s 4 the geeks ;)

I'll have to ask the obvious question: How did we move up to first place in land area without settling anything? Is there any other way than someone else losing a town?

I'm new to that spreadsheet thing, tubs; care to brief me about the colors?

White should be 1st, yellow 2nd, blue 3rd and red 4th. They're in the first post except orange was replaced by blue.

Edit: I'll just add that they mean our position in the ranks :)

haha I guess that someone has lost a town. That can only mean in-fighting in the other continent. unless someone decided to abandon a city :hmm:

haha I guess that someone has lost a town. That can only mean in-fighting in the other continent. unless someone decided to abandon a city :hmm: Should we alert MIA to this information to ask Donut how this could be possible?

Volcano's another (really unlikely) possibility. Why they would bother settling next to a volcano, I don't know...

I think it's most likely that there be wars a brewin' on the other continent.

Should we let MIA know? I don't see any reason too, but I don't think it could hurt anything.

Should we have them question Donuts? I don't think so. We probably shouldn't let them know how much info we have. The important thing is that they lost the city.

Should we alert MIA to this information to ask Donut how this could be possible?

Do this. It proves we are wizards and therefore useful allies.

Should we let MIA know? I don't see any reason too, but I don't think it could hurt anything.

Should we have them question Donuts? I don't think so. We probably shouldn't let them know how much info we have. The important thing is that they lost the city. If Donut doesn't have any military techs it could very possibily be Donuts who lost a city.

I think it makes an even stronger case to trade for writing with Donut so they can get some military techs(their UU for sure). If it was TNT wouldn't it reflect in their team score too? As well, if Donut doesn't want to trade writing then it tells us it wasn't them that lost a city.

After giving this a little more thought it occurred to me that it would be possible that we've been tied for the lead all along, but there's a secondary tie-breaker rule that has kept us on the second place. Could be something to do with population or explored area for example. We appear to have gotten from 4th place to 2nd earlier between turns 22 and 23 without expanding our territory. Just another possibility.

I like the idea of asking MIA what is happening on the other continent and letting them know what we can deduce (just not how) as the possibilities: warfare, volcano, encroachment. Strengthens our hand more than just a little and it lets them know we have the strength.

Homer will need an extension of up to 24 hours beyond the normal time.Does Donut have their hands full? :hmm:

I have no idea how you guys pull these numbers out and I'm a numbers geek (6 sigma green belt at work) Well done. :thumbsup:

I didn't notice this until I was updating the spreadsheet. Team D'nut joined a settler into their capital!!!! Impending doom, or sheer stupidity? :hmm:

RE: Bug's confusion. Look at the land area. We just jumped to first and their is no way to do that other than either us gaining tiles or whoever was first losing tiles. The former didn't happen, so it must have been the latter.

I pulled the score out of the save and no significant changes. I don't think that the scores are updated until after our turn anyway. So next turn whoever's slope decreases then that's who lost the city ;)

I didn't notice this until I was updating the spreadsheet. Team D'nut joined a settler into their capital!!!! Impending doom, or sheer stupidity? :hmm:I'm not a number geek, but from the sheet, I'd say it was TNT who did it. :)

So they're definately at war with Donuts, and are either focusing on research/cash or production. The latter would be my guess.

Edit: Or they just joined some workers. :crazyeye:. Again, reasons are probably same as above.

So if we happen to meet TNT with our dinghy, then do we make nice or express our displeasure?

Or do we continue to play them against each other?

I see no reason why we would not greet TNT with cautious optimism. We have no capability physically to take a stand on either side.

Expressing displeasure doesn't make sense to me at this point - we can't do anything directly. Mapmaking is still a-ways away.

I'm all for supporting the Nuts, tech and cash are the only thing we could funnel to them at this point.

Bleed TNT if they are making war already. Let's face it, one Immortal would wreck havoc on our little empire, if they found the nuts it wouldn't take much to knock them off and have a continent all to your lonesome. Until the Great Grape Fleet gets up and running that is.

I'm not so sure about helping Nuts. They could be very dangerous in later game.

Maybe we can let TNT capture them, and keep Nuts as a pet civ. :D

Well actually we are in the best position here. MIA will actually "help" the nutters. We have plausible deniability later when this comes out.

Someone just pointed out to me that it was TNT not the D'nuts that joined the settler (or a few workers) into their capital. :hmm: veery interesting

EDIT:: just saw pentium's comments above too.

Someone It was me :)just6 posts ago... ;)pointed out to me that it was TNT not the D'nuts that joined the settler (or a few workers) into their capital. :hmm: veery interesting Interesting indeed. Can this mean TNT are losing the war?

Great catch Idiot Processor!:thumbsup:

My wild guess is TNT merged their workers to crank up the production in the capital. They are industrious so their workers likely developed the land quickly and may not be necessary right at this moment.

We need to start getting a sense of the F3 situation. It will also give us good information. I've read a F3 analysis by Rik Meleet from the ISDG and it will give us some very useful strengths numbers. If TNT is cranking immortals it will be apparent here and their GA may be underway.

F3 the military advisor. I saw something on that but we need to have contact with the other 2 in order for it to work.

F3 the military advisor. I saw something on that but we need to have contact with the other 2 in order for it to work.

Where is the spoiler line? Can MIA pass along F3 info? Or are there questions we could ask them relating to their position vis a vis D'nuts that would give us an idea?

(PS I feel smart having just used vis a vis in a sentence, and in context I think. Not bad for a guy in the northern woods :D )

Where is the spoiler line? Can MIA pass along F3 info? Or are there questions we could ask them relating to their position vis a vis D'nuts that would give us an idea?

(PS I feel smart having just used vis a vis in a sentence, and in context I think. Not bad for a guy in the northern woods :D )
Nice 'Licious. I have posed the question to the admins.

So if we happen to meet TNT with our dinghy, then do we make nice or express our displeasure?
Or do we continue to play them against each other?
Well actually we are in the best position here. MIA will actually "help" the nutters. We have plausible deniability later when this comes out.
play that funky music, white boy.
lets sit back and enjoy the show.
Expressing displeasure doesn't make sense to me at this point - we can't do anything directly. Mapmaking is still a-ways away.

I'm all for supporting the Nuts, tech and cash are the only thing we could funnel to them at this point.

Bleed TNT if they are making war already. Let's face it, one Immortal would wreck havoc on our little empire, if they found the nuts it wouldn't take much to knock them off and have a continent all to your lonesome. Until the Great Grape Fleet gets up and running that is.
agreed.
helping DONUTs now is in our interest.

by remaing a rear supplier allows us to keep expanding while MIA will be the one stuck with the 'tater when push comes to shove.
if the A.R.S.E. will meet TNT, we could always do a double deal, with MIAs blessing ofcourse.
sell the rebels the machineguns, while selling the goverment the heavier arms.
this is what makes a NICE, PROFITABLE WAR.
the basics they teach at Arms Trading 101

great idea soul. I think that next time we chat with fe we should propose such tactics. I think that they would be up for it.

Someone just pointed out to me that it was TNT not the D'nuts that joined the settler (or a few workers) into their capital. veery interesting I see a possible explanation for the cockieness Nuts showed in the contact with MIA. They may have TNT hanging on the rope there.

Dagh is right. We should find the weakest party and arrange to send lawyers guns and money, they're in an awful jam...

so basically, we need to get some info out of the jam into the pot roast.
now, GIT will ya, ya slow sub?

We need to hope we can get contact with TNT by sailing west across the passage we just found. Without contact it is all hypothetical.

Let's play nice to everyone and prop up whoever is losing.

Edit - Hey I just had a thought. MIA can tell if Donuts just lost a city by looking at the power curve.

I made another chart for those who have trouble with numbers..... It is of the amount of increase in each turns score from the previous turn. I've included next turns scores, since they are available when you select save & exit.

Let the speculation begin......


EDIT::: btw, I HATE 3-d graphs but it was the best way to diplay the info. I tried to limit the 3-dness of it.

Tubs if it's not too much trouble a different color for TNT would help me.

fixed it .

tnt down and homer up means, i think, that homer has given provo a bloody nose.
i wouldnt venture as afar as losing a city, but a few units...

units aren't in that formula. just territory, pop, & specialists (maybe happy citizens too)

From the new data, I think that d'nut is occupying a persian city.

That means, before the capture, TNT were bigger than Donuts. They're not agri, while the Donuts are. Why were they bigger then?

correct. If you look at the score graph, TNT surpassed the nutters in turn 23 (12 turns ago)

settler spawning instead of military production. That's one more piece of data that points to nutters attacking TNT. we have at least 5 turns, I'd say, before we meet the northern civ in the other continent

I did some approximations to calculate how much of score drop could you expect after losing a town at this point. The assumptions I made are that losing a city would drop the per turn score by some 20% and that the displayed score is really just an average over the per turn scores. This would result in the total score change to be lowered by some 1.5 points per turn. So really, the effect this far in the game would be hardly noticeable.

but the fact that TNT has dropped their acceleration by 1 point per turn for the past two turns, that means that it is probably them.....

Why is MIA dropping then?

Why is MIA dropping then? Lack of 4 turn settling knowledge? :lol:

For that reason, I almost like the way we got diseased. it'll take more time before they realize the 4 turn settling and start having (deserved) concerns.

Btw, was the map hand or cpu built? If it was hand-built, I'd expect them too to have very good starting positions, which might throw odds back a bit.

Map is hand built and MIA already knows we have a 4 turner. we told them when arguing about the value of pottery.

Here is the updated score difference chart. for through turn 36

oh my. we're winning? :lol: the simple people?

only in points per turn and that can change any time

Score isn't something we should ever be worrying about, except for intel purposes. We're like the Raiders... Just Win Baby!

OK here is the new F11 stats. I guess TNT's strategy has worked for now.... We were bumped from 2nd to 3rd in the turn they did the deed in Mfg goods (total unwasted shields).

I also found out (by comparing stats with MIA) that in disease the lower the percentage the higher the rank...... MIA has 15% and is ranked 3rd. So that means that TNT probably has less FP in his borders now.

Here's the score graph for the past 12-13 turns.

Rates of change
Us - 4
D'nut - 3
Mia - 3
TNT - 2

Score isn't something we should ever be worrying about, except for intel purposes. We're like the Raiders Steelers... Just Win Baby!

wasn't worried about the score, just amused :)

That's nice considering we've had some disease and have sent a settler half way round the world. The Celts are moving on up.

Score:
Pre turn
TNT-162
Nuts-143
KISS-142
MIA-140
Post turn
TNT-164
Nuts-146
KISS-145
MIA-142

world pop: KISS 25%, MIA 16%

I still can't believe that we are STILL first in land area. once we start getting settlers out (1st one is due next turn) I don't think that anyone can catch us in that area. I'll update the Monday probably. unless something jumps out at me.

Hmm, we only went up 3 points this turn (it's been 4, hasn't it?).

Also, Springfield isn't growing this turn. Don't know if it matters at all, just found it interesting.

D'nuts are in war, so they probably MM'ed it for max production. Good news for us :)

RE: point difference - It could mean that the "per turn" scores are starting to average out. we haven't been gaining territory in a long while so that could explain the "slight" leveling off that our score graph is showing now. Like Bugs said. Score isn't that important right now.... just a stat.

Nice catch about Springfield not growing. I didn't even notice the color difference. I wonder if they are ramping up for war or just using specialists.

Using specialists ?! That would be nonsense. Working several forest tiles for higher prod would be much more sensible though.

Capitol Switching.

Okay, this discussion is somewhat new for me. Obviously I have changed my capitol during SG game to minimize corruptio/maximize commerce once my growing is basically done; but what is the deal with abandoning your capitol this early?

I figured there is a Geek/Numbers rationale behind it, so I thought I would pose the question here.

I mean, you're looking at a max of four cities at this point, right? What's up with dumping one of them now?

Using specialists ?! That would be nonsense.yeah and so would jumping your palace at a critical point in your expansion ;)

Here is the spreadsheet as promised.... Our total producivity jumped a rank. I wonder if that is due to D'nut's capital not growing.

Greek capital grew one turn after a settler was produced. Ever heard of settler factory? :lol:

I always forget: What is Productivity and what is Mfg?

Athen's last turn of growth was 3 turns ago. So they still don't have the concept yet.

Productivity = uncorrupted gold + unwasted shields+ excess food

Mfg Goods = total shields after waste

At least they have a Granary (or +7 food, which I doubt).

We rose from 3rd to 2nd in both Production and Mfg any of them changing. My guess would be someone built a settler in non-capital city. Ask MIA about it.

It also appears that the d'nuts have a granary. or they've joined workers.... I'm not putting anything past these other teams :crazyeye:

Here's the demograph + stuff, all in the spirit of the game

I now know why the D'nuts aren't talking to MIA. They are trying to build the GL or may have already.

D'nuts might be going for a culture vicotory. Building the GL might be construed as a DoW. I think that we ought to go after that ASAP. We also need to be conscious of how we trade techs. Don't let just one of our opponents have a tech. Give it to both in order to not allow D'nuts to trade it around.

I opened the save and hit end turn, and d'nuts only increased by 1 VP.


38 39
D'nut 146 147
TNT 164 166
MIA 142 144
Kiss 145 149

38 39
D'nut 3 (0) 1 (-2)
TNT 2 (0) 2 (0)
MIA 2 (-1) 2 (0)
Kiss 3 (-1) 4 (+1)


Also, talking with Dag, I suspect that D'nuts got a SGL on Writing and decided to go toward Lit and the GL. Their (presumably) Literacy rate went up so they either have a Lib. or the GL. I suspect the latter since the former is mainly useless with the latter.

With this in mind, I suggest that we move Ave. Joe away from the coast and make them find us. Also we need to be smart when trading techs around. I'm slightly concerned that TNT & D'nut could keep gifting each other the GL and make us do all of the research.

Is this information that should be relayed to MIA? We may need to trade with each other only when absolutely necessary.

After doing some checking (Wonders of the World screen) there is no wonder listed. So the GL is not even being built.

I relayed the info to fe just before he went to bed @ 3am. He also notified me that he appreciates us not popping the GH. and that their curraph is heading up the coast of the other continent.

We both agreed that D'nut's 2 5pop cities and a drop in score acceleration makes it plausible that they are preparing to be on a war footing. fe also said that the D'nuts have strengthened their military. :hmm:

Learning the Literature tech increases literature rate by 3% according to war academy, so that would be enough to put them ahead of us. My guess would be that they just completed philo and chose literature as the free tech.

post a screenie of the f7, please

F7 wouldn't show them since it only shows building wonders from civs we know, and built wonders.

In single player games the F7 does also show civs you don't have contact with, but I wouldn't know if it's different in PBEM. It's completely empty now though.

guess that's why I always get beat to the ToA

It shows COMPLETED wonders from everyone, and CONSTRUCTING wonders from the ones you have contact with - I'm at least 90% sure.

I think Beorn's right. I've never seen a pop up saying an unknown civ has started a wonder. Only unknown civs finishing wonders.

Screenshots of the victory screen and demographics. Power graph had absolutely no change so I didn't take one of that.

RE: the wonders..... You don't get the pop-up but you will see them in the Wonders of the world screen.....99% sure.

Also of note is that we have completed 9 turns of writing.... @ the end of 15 turns we were supposed to trade writing for masonry and Myst. Of which MIA has neither. Should we question the speed of their research?

On to the data...... D'nuts are still building settlers, so I still don't think that war is going on yet.

Score differences post turn are D'nut increased 1 (148), TNT increased 2 (168), MIA increased 2 (146), and we increased 3 (152). These are the scores from the next turn that show up after you select save and exit but before you either save it or cancel.

What is the orange color for on the last two turns for Shelbyville?

orange = 5th place. I figure that since it might matter latter on, that we needed to know who was in what place. Before I had assumed that the capitals we're tied when they had the same pop.....but now we know different.

.....but now we know different.Explain to the idiot.... What do we know now?

We know that something happened to the TNT capital. There was a turn transition (34->35) that the TNT capital (Dancing Banana) went from pop 1 to pop 4. a couple of turns later the 4 pop TNT capital was one behind in the rankings to a 2 pop MIA capital (Athens).

If the culture was equivalent then the TNT capital would have been ahead of Athens in the rankings. But since Athens was ahead of the Dancing Banana then some sort of culture loss happened in TNT.

Two explanations could have caused this.....anarchy or loss (abandonment, or hostile takeover) of the original city and then the palace jumped to another city. The former case I hope for their sake didn't happen. The latter case, would have caused the palace to reset to 0 culture in the new city. And it is now only earning 1 culture per turn instead of 4 (2k years = 4x original culture). Once TNT is met, the culture graph will confirm this theory. We still don't know exactly what happened, but Provo has indicated to Daghie that it was a mistake.

We have so many active threads going on that I'm not sure which one to use. :)

Anyway, Tubs, with your superb spreadsheets, have you looked at how much, if at all, we should pop-rush the granary in Dunderhead? What about the upcoming granary in Ignoramus? It seems that with all the food around there it would be beneficial to turn some of the population into shields, but happiness issues might be hard to deal with.

No I hadn't thought of pop-rushing...to be honest I almost never pop-rush.

I'll look at it and see what the cost vs benefit will be.....I'll get back with youin the next couple of days.....Thanks for the idea :goodjob:

Here is my attempt at the Dunderhead project. I'm not sure about when the bg's will be mined. so we might have to adjust but it could be done.

Assumptions:
1. 21% waste as reported by CA2 rounds to the nearest number. (our second shield wasn't wasted but our 3rd was and this matches)
2. the bg's will be mined in time that they are needed. The 1st one won't be that big of a problem but the 2nd and 3rd one will need to be on time or earlier)

Same assumptions as before except that Ignoramus has 24% waste.

The worker that comes out of Ignoramus in 3 more turns will be needed to improve this area.

All praise the Rower :worship:

It wasn't my idea....Niko had the brilliance to think of pop-rushing. I just made a new column in a worksheet.

Now, I see a couple of possible issues.

Firstly, I think you didn't take corruption properly into account during the growth turns. Looking at the 4-turn cycle in Dunderhead, turns 62-65, you have 8 uncorrupted shields on the second turn of the cycle. But one of those shields that get added with growth goes to waste, so in reality I think we'll only produce 7 uncorrupted shields that turn. That would be a kind of a problem, because it would put the whole cycle at 6+7+7+9=29 shields. So it would seem that we need sizes 5 and 6 for the 4-turner in Dunderhead.

There's a similar issue with the 2-turn cycle in Ignoramus. On the second turn of the cycle one of the 2 extra shields would again go to waste, leaving the cycle at 4+5=9 shields. However, this we can simply fix by mining another bg, so that it'll be 5+6.

Then, it appears you've dropped 2 people out of Ignoramus when rushing, but at 42 shields it only costs 1 citizen. Also I'm not sure if I'm reading the chart correctly, but I think you're dropping Dunderhead's population on the chart a turn too late. We'd have only 2 citizens on turn 45, right?

Finally, there's the issue of happiness. How high do we need to have lux tax at to keep Dunderhead's people content? I'm afraid it's going to be so high that just because of that we can't afford to rush with more than 1 citizen at most. Note that it wouldn't necessarily have to be in the end. We could switch to settler at 10 shields, rush it with 1 citizen and switch back to granary. Or the same thing at 20 shields, except use barracks instead of settler.

Just one more thing. :) I tried to guesstimate what would happen in Dunderhead if we didn't rush the granary at all. The granary would surely complete around the same time as the first settler after the rush, and then we'd be ready for the 4-turn cycle right away instead of doing a couple of 5-turn settlers. So in practice rushing with 2 people only seems to save a couple of turns at most, with the cost of some extra unhappiness for a significant amount of time.

I'm afraid this became a little messy, hopefully you can make some sense out of it. :)

Niko you are correct on most of your points....Ignoramus only needs to drop 1 citizen. I've never planned for waste so the 2 shields from growth might be split in half. The pop drop due to rushing is not at the right time.

I haven't looked at the effect of not rushing yet. I was doing this right before I went home from work yesterday and didn't have enough time to check my work and research the waste bit.

Since we have a few turns before we need to have this down, I can research it a little more and play with the numbers more.

I checked and Ignoramus would be squirting workers out at the same time. We'd also have 1 "extra" shield in case something doesn't work exactly like we think.

Checking Dunderhead now

So it would seem that we need sizes 5 and 6 for the 4-turner in Dunderhead.

To reply to myself, I realized it should also work out of sync at sizes 4, 5, 5 and 6, producing 7+7+9+9= 32 shields (uncorrupted).. or with one less mine, or a mined grassland instead of a mined bg we could get 7+7+8+8=30.

It gets surprisingly complicated when you add corruption and unhappiness to the equation. :)

:goodjob: thanks Niko!

I checked Dunderhead and Niko was correct... it doesn't make sense to pop-rush either. Not much is gained and the unhappiness wouldn't be worth it.

Score turn 41 (same pre-post):
TNT-170
KISS-155
Nuts-149
MIA-148

We're only 3rd in land area? Weren't we leading for some time?

We haven't founded cities for some time either

I'm not sure about Turn 40, but we were 1st during Turn 39. MIA just got a new town, so that would explain 2nd. Ah, and looking at Tubby's spreadsheet in Post 179 shows that TNT must've gotten a settler during turn 38 and Doughnuts got one a turn later, so that would explain 3rd place.

Jesterton is settled so it will look nicer nxt turn and before you can say "4 turner" we'll be ahead..Oh, and before you can say "Double 4-turner" we'll be flying ;).

Edit: Here's the magic F11 for turn 42 (Ssssh....don't tell).

Here is the new updated F11 stats.... I find it odd that Shelbyville hasn't grown... but if they are on a war footing then they might be maximizing shields. but we are only 2nd in mfg goods (unwasted shields). :hmm: someone isn't producing

The blip in our standing in disease was basically MIA & D'nuts settling on non-FP or jungle tiles.

I suspect that our military service is 3rd just ahead or tied with MIA

This also is an interesting little graph....purple line (D'nut) is now on bottom.... Teal line (TNT) is quickly being caught up upon. :woohoo:

Here's the new data.... Just a little switching in positions

Looking at the score... it almost is as though TNT is trying to expand and d'nut got a few cities then stalled.... Whether that stalling is a reaction to TNT's aggression or if D'nut was the original aggressor :hmm:

Familiy size seems interesting.

In turn 41, we were second with 2, and in turn 42, we were leading with 1. :confused:

This mean somebody's FS dropped more than ours. My understanding would be it's TNT's expansion slowing down (prepairing for war with D'nuts?).

well the family size is total excess food divided by 2 then averaged over total # of cities. So if the 2nd-4th cities are only producing 2 food then that would bring the average down. (since we are the highest in disease that means that the other teams have >= percentage of FP/jungle)

right now we are producing 15 extra food. divide that by 2 then by our 4 cities and you get 1.875 ( I guess they round up to 2). Min is 1 regardless.


I think that it also depends on when you capture the data. I always do it at the end of the turn now. I think that some get it at the beginning (which is what I have to do if it's not supplied for spoilerish reasons.)

T44 F11 sent to TR for analysis

Scores were
182 TNT
172 Us
160 MIA
156 Donut

Donut seems to be collapsing.

D'nut's score went up from a +1 acceleration to a +3 acceleration.. This almost implies a new city. MIA & TNT stayed @ +3. We are @ +5 :D .

Shelbyville is most probably optimized to pump military. It hasn't grown for 6 turns. Also Springfield hasn't grown in 3 turns. I wonder if D'nut has stopped producing settlers right now.

I wonder where TNT has their pop hidden? According to F8 they have same population as we have.

Springfield might be just "out-of-cycle". Settler should have been produced in turn 38, but it was built in turn 39. 5-turn combo factory, or just bad management?

TNT probably also has a couple of 4-size military producing cities.

sounds reasonable to me... I hadn't seen the F8 screen in a while. Did someone post it?

EDIT:: our current pop count is 13.

I posted the Power graph and the F8 vitory screen in the Dept of Turnplay. According to F11, Shelbyville is not growing.

What's interesting is that we have 28% of the population of the world and TNT has 26. So MIA has a good bit less pop than us. But we've been 3rd in Military Service for a while now. Without any growth on our part we've dropped to last this turn. So Maybe MIA had fewer warriors than us until last turn.

Some thing else of note: Our Population is finally back in 1st since the disease ages ago. With the lead in Pop and Territory, our score will be #1 soon enough. Not that that matters until 2050AD. ;)

Can't understand a single thing that graph says, :D , I'm too stupid, but great work anyway :goodjob: !

Edit: Nevermind, I understand it now.

Own, white is first place, yellow- 2nd, blue - 3rd, red - 4th, & 5th is orange.

Are the numbers 31-45 turn's?

yes... I could put the turns from 2-45 up but it would be at least 2 screens wide. If you have a curiosity about earlier turns I could post it or send you the spreadsheet.

:dance: I fully understand it now!

yes... I could put the turns from 2-45 up but it would be at least 2 screens wide. If you have a curiosity about earlier turns I could post it or send you the spreadsheet.You could upload the file instead of the screenshot of it... :woohoo:

Aren't you supposed to be on holiday???

I have uploaded it earlier. Most people are fine with the pic of it. I could upload it too, I guess.

IIEC we have said NO to uploading for "security" reasons....at least for "classified" material :cool:

You could attach the file. Although people like me who don't have Excel couldn't see it.

Meh, it's fine the way it is. Does anything from Turn 2 really matter anymore, anyway?

You could attach the file. Although people like me who don't have Excel couldn't see it.
then you can get OpenOffice.
its a similar suite of programs to Microsoft Office, and FREE too :D
http://www.openoffice.org/

I must say that it's also got a pretty good compatibility, for a fereware, with word and excel. It sure as hell will screw your page alignment and overall look if you put images and such, but it will work.

Or you could name it something misleading, like imitating an SG file (like Double_Secret_Probation_IroquoisPlisken_1250AD)

next turn our score is only 5 behind TNT and gaining at a rate of +6 to their +3. D'nut is still increasing @ +2.

Our pop dropped to 2nd but we still have 27% of the world population and TNT is our closest rival @ 25%. So that must mean that everyone is fairly even in Pop points right now.

What about Literacy? It looks like you get some (3%) just by discorvering Writing, but we were 1st up until turn 38 so that must be the time when Iros got it, right?

I don't know.... According to the stuff I've read it's only Libraries, Unis, research labs, SCI small & great wonders that add to it.

I doesn't make sense that we are in 2nd. We have all of the same techs as D'nut and no one has literature. I'll check into it and get back later.

Somebody must have Litrature (or Internet ;). It's most likely D'nut, but I can't find a reason for hiding it, because we know it anyway.

Probably they don't have anyone near Tubby.

They don't have it... Check in CA2. No one currently has literature.

Victory screen says:
Area: we 4% TNT 3%
Pop: we 27% Nuts 27%

I love that power curve Dag. Thanks for posting that. It makes me get all choked up like PSU and Notre Dame on Saturday afternoon. :lol:

I find it very surprising that Dancing nana hasn't grown in 7 turns. We are definately setting ourselves up for being #1. We just have to start being careful about a backstab me thinks

That power curve is very encouraging. It gets back to Charis' rule number one: pop=power.

I think we will soon need to start developing real power - Gallic Swords!

Power curve is great, but I am very confused by Literacy. It seems like someone's Literacy has dropped. :confused:

You also get 3% added to your literacy rate when you get the literature tech It seems Writing get 3% too since we don't have Literature. Funny enough we're back at first on turn 47, still on 3% :crazyeye:.

Here's the F11 screen....

And the power graph with the new numbers for turn 49. We're #1, we're #1, we're #1!!! Goooo White Sox! :mischief:

Good news is that Dunderhead made the list for the first time. :dance: We're also ahead in all of the growth/production stats except for mfg goods (shields).

Bad news is that our military service really needs addressing. Ave. Joe and Peapants need to start coming home for a little D-fence.

Also notice that D'nut are starting to pull settlers or workers out of Shlebyville. If springfield doesn't produce a settler next turn they don't have a 4-turner and shouldn't be able to catch us.

I'm still pretty comfortable with the state of events except for the military.

The good news on that power curve is that the Donuts are maintaining and TNT is decreasing.

That tends to happen when someone attacks pre-maturely. I don't think that TNT is paying any attention to expansion at all. Just focusing on immortals. That will come back to hurt them later. I'm off to change my vote in the invasion poll :devil:

just shuffled a couple of the rankings. D'nut is spitting out 4 turn settlers out of Springfield.

Other info from miscellaneous places....
- Our granary will complete in Dunderhead in 3 turns and it will grow in 4.
- Our pop percentage is 28% vs TNT's 26%.
- Our territory is 4% to MIA's 3%

IP There is a free Excel Viewer that you can download here. (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&DisplayLang=en)

What happend to Shelby? From 6 to less than 4. Are they whipping...

Whipping or getting settlers out of both cities. (Springfield & Shelbyville)

Massive settling seems cocky being under attack...they're (a) overconfident, (b) very strong or (c) Nuts

Seeing that we are still ahead in mfg. goods must mean that either (i) TNT hadn't attacked with an immortal (ii) TNT-D'nut war is not a reality (iii) TNT is really bad a MMing.

point ii would fall in line with dual city settler production for D'nut

Tubs, let me just say you are incredible.

You can have different theories on what happened just by looking at the demographics, is just unbelievable.

Keep up the good work :goodjob: !

That we are first in mfg goods kindof surprises me anyways.

One thing that struck me here is that we've fallen dead last in disease, where we were first with 20% we're last at 17. This does mean that the other teams have stopped working FP, to an extent. Good news ;)

It also supports the no-GA hypothesis, given they would probably have an increase in productivity by working less FP, further that increase with a GA, but it didn't happen (to an extent) as we are still first. 16 3rd 17 2nd lately suggest we are against 15-18 shielders right now. If the GA DID happen, we're too strong for the league [pimp]

Seeing that we are still ahead in mfg. goods must mean that either (i) TNT hadn't attacked with an immortal (ii) TNT-D'nut war is not a reality (iii) TNT is really bad a MMing.

point ii would fall in line with dual city settler production for D'nut
I think this is very likely. It would not surprise me to find out that they are not at war and have been bluffing this whole time.

If this is true, why?

Why is TNT so far behind in tech then? I don't think they've made it to Doughnut land yet with their immortals. From what Doughnut said they've requested techs and cash from TNT, which can be taken with a grain of salt.