Since there will be some discussion about city placement I felt this thread would be appropriate unless it's preferred we discuss it in the turnplayer thread.

Kickbooti and I have discussed some city placements and we need to discuss where our 2nd city should be placed.

I have found that CxxC has more benefits than CxxxC since military moves in 1 vs. 2 turns and all developed tiles are worked early in the game. Yes there's overlap but I see MMing benefits here too. Obviously it's not my decision so I think we should discuss our plan.

Does anyone have the most recent screenshot? That would be most helpful in planning our cities.

Edit - OK, I just found a screenshot in the turnlog. Sorry for being a dope.

I like the regular grassland 1SE of the GH for our next city. That will also allow one up around the bend in the river. Settling these first cities on the river will be most beneficial.

Here are a few of the dots discussed.

Gotta go with Bugs on this one and vote the red dot. In general stay on the riverbanks for food and commerce. And popping the hut by founding a city will get you something "less interesting, but more valuable, than barbarians" as TR says.

Our GS is a fast mover so CxxC spacing is less critical than it might be otherwise.

Our GS is a fast mover so CxxC spacing is less critical than it might be otherwise.

I agree.

With the info we have now (which I still think we should update by letting two warriors scout), I am going for the red dot as well.

Red dot for me too. Then 1 E of pale green.

Red or Blue works for me. Though if spacing is an issue, one north of blue (NE of red) would still give the goodyhut/wheat/fill benefit that I think is important.

one north of blue (NE of red) From what I can see that is not by the river, i.e. no 6pop+ before duct and that is bad unless we use it for settlers/workers only, but it steals space from possible river cities, so no. I'd prefer blue dot to get that 2:d wheat into action pronto. Many cities soon is good for intalling some frowns on the foreheads of opponents. Pale green could then be placed on opposite side of the river Styx.

I think red because blue would cover a useful BG and the city (Dunderhead or Dunder Head?) would be a shield powerhouse.

I agree with the red dot for the same reasons posted by others and because it will be CxxC from the green dot for the third city...might be important prior to getting our UU.

I like blue, and move green dot NE probably. There seems to be enough bg's to go around and that wheat on floodplain looks nice.

Edit: If red dot, I would consider chopping forest for temple.

The state of our nation after turn 11 plus some in-pic comments.
Edit: Well it would be if the darn thing actually attached :mad:

Here we go again...

Here's my latest take on a dot map:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1918/singingintherain9lm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

red & blue are @ 5 distance from Simpleton and yellow and empty purpple circle are 4.5 . I realize ring placement doesn't work in [c3c] but I still think that it's a good idea if you can fit it in with the terrain.

Bugsys plan is fine too but obviously a bit looser.I guess one thing to take into consideration is do we want monster metros for SS builds or not. A tighter build is a habit of mine and I guess it gives a higher number of cities early on. I do believe that is good to have at the negotiations table. I also appreciate the ability to share goodies btw cities.
My dotting is not grounded on exact calculation on future shiels/food, mind you. That's for the geeks :lol: .

I think that it's important to grab as much area as possible early on. I've never played against humans, but I'd imagine that they would expand better than AI. If so then we are going to have success by expanding faster. We have the inital lead in growth but I suspect that that will even out if we don't expand well.

@Tubby
Agree 100%, but there is also the difference between expanding fast regarding # of cities and expanding "big" in # of tiles. Many cities early on will look more scary to opponents than fewer, even if the fewer will grow more monsterous later on. My line of reasoning is we will go for an attack with GS's i late AA/early MA and that will be augmented with a lot of mid sized cities. If the trick pulls of and we want to go for SS we can disband some of them to make room for mega metros later on.
Please note how I've left the 80K dream behind, ha,ha.

Yeah that's fine. I've never been good at planning city locations. I usually leave that to someone else in the SG. I'm more learning than offering "sage advice". PLus I had to come into work this morning and I'm bored.

About that whale just out of reach, it almost looks like there's coast to the N and NW of it. Although I'm not that great at fog-gazing, especially with just a screenshot.

That looks like ocean to me. It seems to get darker as you go to the fog to the N & NW. I've been wrong before, you know.

Here's another map...

I have never made a dotmap... I've seen many of course. What's the easiest way to make one?

Bugsy's attempt is definitely the esthetically more pleasing, but I agree with Daghdha that we will probably benefit most from early small + mid-sized cities as opposed to future powerhouses. I think we should be able to squeeze in one more city along that river (with respect to Bugsy's map), but not wasting that BG (in Daghdha's map). For this, settling on that FP south of the wines may be necessary. Also note the river that merges near the FP-wheat with 'ours'... we should check that area out.

@ Crakie - I use the paint program for dot mapping. Just save as a jpeg file. It is simple for an old guy like me, you can draw dots, straight lines, curves lines and put text (ugly text, but text just the same.)

@ Team - I think we need to plan on having 12+ good tiles per city. Anything less than 12 and we'll be shooting bullets into our feet. Being able to swap tiles between cities can really give you a boost.

Okay, I'm old too - how do you save a screen shot as a jpeg? Dot maps would be fun to make.

As for city placement, here are my thoughts...

1) I still think we should look south of GoodyHut Hill for our next city, I'm open to the precise tile. This will give us something closer to the interior with good growth potential, good production potential and it will pop the GH in a benefitial way. That makes it a good candidate for a military producer.

2) If the Simpleton is going to be a settler factory I think we may want to consider puting our third city on the coast, N of the hill/SE of the coastal grapes. This would still put in in range of the FP for pop growth, but it would free up a city for naval units (or coastal wonders should they be necessary) without diverting Simpleton from producing settlers. Also it would be within three of Simpleton.

Or course all of this is subject to change as new info comes in (I like to hedge) but that's my read for now...

Okay, I'm old too - how do you save a screen shot as a jpeg? Dot maps would be fun to make.
After you've copied the image to paint (or whatever), save it and click "Save as type:", then select JPEG.

After you've copied the image to paint (or whatever), save it and click "Save as type:", then select JPEG.
I know how to make a jpeg, but I don't know how to make those nice, neat colored circles (mine look more like a child's crayon-drawn circle, and any printed words look like those of a 3-year-old.) I've noticed some in SG's look like fonts. I've never tried one of those expanded-borders cities outlines in different colors either.

Is there any chance of setting up a "Department of Technically-Challenged Assistance" for those of us who would like to learn more about the programs and utilities used for graphically showing what we want to describe? or is this info available in a thread elsewhere? I always hate to interrupt the flow of communication by asking "How did you do that?" :blush:

gmaharriet,
Bede sent me a website that make "Bede quality" pics if you want it. I use it on my other PC but this one I use "paint". The spray paint can makes the nice dots. Where you see the "A" is where you can make a box and add text.

Thanks, Whomp! I'll give that a try. :)

After you've copied the image to paint (or whatever), save it and click "Save as type:", then select JPEG.

Thanks IP; but let me back up one more step, how do you copy the screen to paint (or whatever)? Is there a hot key or something? Since Civ doesn't really work as a full Windows program I have never figured out how to use different copy utilities with it (though I have not tried very hard either).

Thanks IP; but let me back up one more step, how do you copy the screen to paint (or whatever)? Is there a hot key or something? Since Civ doesn't really work as a full Windows program I have never figured out how to use different copy utilities with it (though I have not tried very hard either).
Oh. On my keyboard there's a key called Prt Scr/SysRq next to F12. That basically copies the entire screen. Then Alt+Tab to Paint and Ctrl+V or click Paste. If you don't have that key...well, I don't know how to help you.

but I don't know how to make those nice, neat colored circles
In Whomp's screen you can click the oval on the left to make perfect circles. After you click on it, select the box right under it to make circles with a see-through center. The other two options fill in the circle.

You can also change the width of the circle by first selecting the line and choosing a thicker line.

...Reading back over that, that seems very confusing, but hopefully you'll understand it. :blush:

Kickbooti-On my laptop it has a blue "fn" key that I press with the blue "print Scrn" key. Then I paste in the "Paint" program, adjust the attributes to size 800 to 900 width x 700 length. The only ones I generally have over 1000 width are screens like the F11 screen where I need the whole width. I try to trim most down so they fit better in the post and change them to jpg. Once I'm finished I move the picture to the desktop then I come to this page
hit "go advanced" then "manage attachments" then browse, upload and voila' the picture will post in your reply. I think you can only post one pic at a time this way but it's the safer than putting it in the "upload file" at the bottom of the screen which can be viewed by anyone.
Make sense?

IP and Whomp, thanks for the tutorial. I do have the 'PrtScrn/SysRq' key on my keyboard but I've had no occassion to play with that bank of buttons.

I will have to play with this in the future.

Thanks again.

In Whomp's screen you can click the oval on the left to make perfect circles. After you click on it, select the box right under it to make circles with a see-through center. The other two options fill in the circle.

You can also change the width of the circle by first selecting the line and choosing a thicker line.

...Reading back over that, that seems very confusing, but hopefully you'll understand it. :blush:
Seems like I had trouble making it round, rather than oval, but it's been awhile since I tried it. I'll give it a try. Thanks. :)

Round is just oval, only you need to aim rather well to get it a nice circle :)

Dots are dots. Who cares if they are round.

We have three rivers to work with. As an agricultural civ, we shouldn't even think about not settling on a river for quite a while.

This is my first foray into technological literacy...

I have included the latest map sent up by Crakie and marked what I think the position for our next two cities should be.

The red dot (Dunderhead) south of GoodyHut Hill should be first - it will produce well for military, grow well due to wheat, and pop the GH for possible tech.

Second would be the blue. This would have access to FP for growth, the hill for production, wine for trade, the coast for navy and it would be three moves from Simpleton for (eventual) ease of transporting units back and forth.

My two cents worth.

KB

Blue isn't on the river. So that means an aqueduct is in it's future. Waste of shields just to be on the coast. Planting on the wines (or 1 SW of wines) to the west would be a better option for a coastal city if that is our goal for city #2

EDIT:: also the wheat won't be in Dunderhead's radius until cultural expansion or a city is planted 1 S of your blue dot

Agree with the first dot.

Don't forget, we won't need to be 3 squares away with Gallic Swords. We could have cities up to 6 squares away and still defend like it's CxxC. :D

Thanks for the satelite view Kickbooti.
Red dot works. Blue dot needs to move inside. As Bugs said rivers, rivers, rivers.

If we plant our 1st coastal on top of the wines wouldn't we get the extra commerce (2 commerce 0 food)? As well that river runs a long way(all the way to Peapants). What I wonder about placement is it seems there's a ring of rivers around the capital. Does it make sense to be just inside the rivers for defense?

I'd say try to stay inside if possible.. Also being AGR, we get an extra food out of the city tile if we plant on a river. I think.

Since enemies will be coming mostly from the south, try to settle to the north of rivers.

Since enemies will be coming mostly from the south, try to settle to the north of rivers.

Actually, our continent could stretch east-west in the northern hemisphere, with the other continent in the southern hemisphere. Still, settling north of the river is preferable of course.

Tubby you are correct extra food on the river. That's what makes it so huge to focus on river tiles. IP I agree we should settle north (inside) of the rivers.

Should blue go 1SW, 1S on the fp tile so it can get the wheat,forest and grass tiles? It could be a nice worker pump.

4th city coastal on the wines? It would set up a pretty nice ring.

I confess I'm not used to playing Agricultural, so I forgot about the river thing. The second city was placed on the assumption that it was desirable to get boats going without disrupting the Settler Factor at Simpleton. But the river, both for food and defense is important - that's why I'm learning from the masters... :worship:

I would say we needn't worry too much about the third city since I'm sure more will be explored before we are ready to settle, but if it is desirable to build 'inside the river, I think the second city will have to be moved east, down-river. It would loose the wheat, but it may gain more production in the long run.

The city center food bonus on the river will make up for the early wheat (unirrigated) and won't require worker turns.

The AGRI trait is a double edged sword without luxuries, however, and we run the risk of getting the science budget cut by the rapid pop growth.

By settling along rivers you also get the benefit of riverside commerce bonuses on two sides of the city center. The added commerce mitigates the effect of rapid population growth as well.

OK here is an updated map with some proposed cities on it.
- City 1 has a BG to the SW that is covered up.
- City 2 is on a grassland FP
- City 3 is on plains with wines.


EDIT: moved city #2 1 SW

EDITEDIT:: moved to a later post

City 1 has awesome potential, 6 BG's in radius + FP wheat + 7 forests on grassland (33% of grasslands are BG - so after chop could have more bg's)

The only one I'd consider adjusting is city 2 and move it the the SW FP square inside the river.

With the wheat, forest, bgs that city has worker pump potential.
It would give cxxc spacing to city 1 without crossing a river. Pretty important IMO.
It looks like it will gain another commerce tile that's in the darkness. We'll know soon enough.
It may lose the 3rd bg for a bit but that particular bg (non river) would be
developed much later anyhow.

Alright, I am coming to agree with both Tubby and Whomp on city placement. Besides, I believe I like the 'ring' that the river provides, is is becoming precious to me...

KB

subsribed/

updated map to move city #2 1 SW to the FP.

Sites as planned look good to me......:D

we run the risk of getting the science budget cut by the rapid pop growth. In despot our people is our gold so I don't see any problems with that :whipped:

City placement looks good :goodjob:

In despot our people is our gold so I don't see any problems with that :whipped:

City placement looks good :goodjob:
:lol:

Is that guy saying "pop" for pop rushing? :D

Cities look fine to me...

I didn't notice this in Daghdha's screenshot of Peapants in the the Turn log thread but there is incense down by the jungle to the south. So that is 2 native luxes that we can go after.

City #1 is correct. I think the original City 2 location is better (1NE of present location)(2E-2SE of capitol).

Gotta go with Bugs on the location for C2. Inside the river is nice but the extra bonus grass will make up for the defense bonus. Use the shields to build a wall if it's a problem :D

I'm with Bede and Bugsy on this one. City 2 on the grass 1NE. The rest looks fine to me, although I cannot see a straightforward way to fill the east without not using some tiles. But we will worry about that later :)

I defer to the brains of this outfit. Back to the old spot.

I defer to the brains of this outfit. Back to the old spotDitto. Here is the revised (original) map

Read in deep, rumbling, dramatic voice...

"In a world of happy anarchists, one man rises above the throng to apply his specific, useless talent.

Read in frantic, frightened voice...

What should we call the next citiy?

Deep voice again...

In a realm where wisdom, skill and talent are desperately needed - elsewhere, one man answers the need to address the banal.

Read in frustrated voice...

I'm trying to develop Iron Working here, I don't give a #@!& what you call the city!

Deep voice again...

When nobody else was willing to create a false crisis and then ride to the rescue, HE heard the call and donned his spurs...

Only HE has time to waste on things like this...

That man is Kickbooti!

Never fear good citizens, the muse has descended and I have the list for you...

City 1 - Dunderhead
City 2 - Lumbergh
City 3 - well, the muse had to use the WC, so I'm not sure about that yet. In keeping with the stupid theme it was wavering between Screendoor (for a naval city) and Lickspittle, but time will tell.

There, your city list to date.

Humbly submitted (with tounge firmly in cheeck)

Kickbooti

I love Dunderhead.

What about Harryville, Lloydton, or Rat Poison? Dumb and Dumber, anyone?

Dumb and Dumber would be two separate sister cities.... Then we could have a 3rd city called Dumberer

I thought the third city was Dumb a l'Ouest

How about a simple "Knucklehead" for city number three?

Why are all of them "heads"?

Bighead
Smallhead
Meanhead
Meathead
Angryhead
The Great Hill ( I mean Head )

What about something more celtic?
It could be something french too you know.

Le Moule
Saint Pierre
Morton
Lamentin

Although I like Meathead the most :P.


So what are we planning to get from other cities? Set Factories? Rexes? Worker factories? Or just city imrpovements?


cheers

Tomasz

Simpleton is settler pump.
Dunderhead is a military pump.
Ignoramus is a worker pump.
#4 we haven't decided what the site will be but my guess is we will want worker/military cranked out from there.
#5 If it's the coastal city hopefully we will have alpha by then and 2 curraghs headed in each direction to start.

I'm beginning to have 2d thoughts about city planning. If we expand faster then others, they will prolly infer that we don't have a strong military to watch our back, i.e. many small, weakly defended cities. What would you do if that was the case? I'd say big chance you reason better hit now than later. I suggest we assign Ignorasmus to also focus on rax-->units for this reason and then go for a worker pump. City placement may have to be altered.

I beg to differ. In a couple of turns we'll have 3 cities and 1 worker. Workers will get more production out of the cities that we have. After Ignoramus I'd agree with getting some military pumps up. But we really need workers. Once Dunderhead grows to 3 we'll have happiness issues unless it's roaded to the wines. And we have the long road to incense and dye ville

:hmm: I'm a bit curious about opponents early settling. What causes such an awkward approach? A bit worried about them trying a quick whacking, but probably your tactic is the proper one. Indeed, we need workers to improve the land.

Well one thing is for sure. With two 2pop towns and possibly a 1pop town, not much military is coming our way right now. ;)

I think Ignoramus should stick to worker pump for the reasons given above.

Do we have a hard and fast place for city 4 (Jesterton?)?

Also, what are the calculations to roading to the dyes? How many workers, how many turns?

And for scouting, I would be interested in seeing what surrounds that mountain to the NW of Mt. Dye. If it is surrounde by luxuries like Mt. Dye, we wouldn't have spotted those yet...

Sorry. My Beautiful Mind is probably seeing patterns where there are none...WHAT?! Oh, the voices are calling. Gotta go.

I'm with Tubby.
3 hp warriors can damage some roads maybe kill a worker but with our capability to rush a spear or two the odds are stacked against them even if they attacked with 4 warriors. I find even more unlikely that
a. they have 4 warriors. They wouldn't have 2 cities.
b. they would bunch together warriors without intel as to where we are.
I find this an unlikely scenario since they realize it's suicidal tactic that can't work.
Our bigger risk is when we settle further out towards the luxs.

Workers in Ignoramus.

@ booti, Jesterton is currently slated where New City 2 is on this map. Ave. Joe is scouting over that way now. If something better is revealed then great if not, it will be there.

From the Scouting Forum

There are some differences but Rik created a balanced map and the other civ would have 4 turn settler type terrain just like us. We are approaching that type of landmass.

The other thing is, with my simple mind, with the four dyes surrounding that mountain Rik looked for a land grab with the two civs on the continent. It kind of tells me that each of us are equidistant to the dyes. There are four dyes (not one like incense) and in my view the only dyes. That type placement was for a reason. It doesn't seem to be coincidence to me.

Alright, city five. Do we develop the ring or do we head for the dyes? Do we head straight for the dyes or do we 'leapfrog' to the insence and then into the deep, dark jungle.

If we go for the dyes, what resources do we send? My thoughts are at least two spearmen and two workers along with the settler. They will be out there on their own for awhile, unable to build anything until the jungle is cleared away.

I'm generally pretty conservative without much finesse, but a luxury grab may just give us the edge when diplomacy starts. I think it may be worth it.

I'm up for the lux grab. After Dag plays I'll post an extended dot map for such an event....

more stuff here later

Call me crazy but I think we have a few cities before we settle the dyes.
A. We are the only ones with a 4 turn settler factory.
B. The logistics to the dyes make for a long track to get there, link up and defend. Even gallic swords will be slowed by unroaded jungles. MIA is the only one who can road fast. IMO they can't afford to throw a settler out there right now.

So while I would like a settler to get there I think we need to focus on our core 5 and the incense first. Maybe settler 7 or 8? I also don't think we should be spending a lot of worker resources to get them at this point until our core is more developed. I think just militarizing it and staking claim should be enough.

Tell me if I am completely out of my mind.

Ok Crazy listen up ;).

This is my arguement for the early lux grab and it's basically the same as yours. the other teams can't get to it right now so we are guaranteed it. My plan would be to secure the incense with settler #4 and secure the dyes with settler #5. Then get settler #6 to finish off the first ring of cities. Settler 6 would plant before (or around the time) settler #4 gets to the incense.

I think that incense & dye cities should build their own workers and start roading back. Send a warrior or two down there for protection and that's it. The workers from Ignoramus will stay in the core and improve the tiles there.

Does that make sense?? I'm not trying to impose this on everyone, but I think that luxes are going to be key justa a bit later.

Looks like daghada found some ivory, a GH and THE COAST (western shore)

Here are my suggested lux grab cities, both are on the luxury

I'm undecided about the timing, but I think that a city will be essential to claim the dyes.

I'm afraid that if our neighbors discover a warior sitting there it may motivate them to move faster than they otherwise would have to claim the luxury. After all, unless we're willing to start an early war with (most likely) a warior or two, they would call our bluff.

IF, on the other hand, they discover a city already established, hopefully with a spearman or two, the resources necessary to dislodge us would be daunting - especially if that city can produce a temple and expand its radius.

And at present I would recomend settling on the SWmost dye tile.

There, discuss...

OK makes more sense. Those bananas are just a little too far for a worker to be pumped but how about temple, worker?

How about the SE one booti? It seems now that that is where our neighbor should be. Then they would have to settle on "our" side of the mountain in order to claim the 4th dye.

It does suck that the nanners are too far but if it is relatively symettrical then there should be a nanna on that side too.

So Whomper, are you on board with the lux grab now? or does more discussion need to ensue? How about everyone else? any concerns??......

No I'm on board and we can afford to use 30 shields for this purpose unlike any other team. Should we start a temple so we can capture the 'nanas and all the dyes?

SE, SW either is good at this point. As information comes in, we'll adjust.

I do think that at Temple would be good. If Ignoramus is as effective a worker pump as Simpleton is settler, I would definately send at least one worker to start development, and maybe on or two to pop rush the temple(?). I seldom do that in my games so I don't know the effect.

I think that more discussion on this is wise, I would like to know the Grumpy Old men's thoughts. But I do think that if we are going to do it, do it all the way.

Besides, I bet gmaharriet can make some mean bananna bread :D

I don't know if this is obvious, but I guess a warrior should be there first. Im all for the temple.


Tomasz

no on the pop-rush deal. Maybe pop-rush using citizens but don't join a worker just to pop-rush. Then you waste more than you gain.

Bugs already suggested planting near the dyes last night.
I think a warrior can be cranked out of Dunderhead to cover the dyes city.

I guess he got lost in the spam. That processed meat can be be very cumbersome once entwined in it. http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/uploaded/Mistfit/2005517183725_MeliAnime6.gif

If we go for the luxury here is my recomendation...

Send a settler and a warior.
Send a worker.
Follow on with a spearman (or two) ASAP.

Pop the goodyhut.

If we get wasted by barbs, send the dye warrior after the spearman gets there.

I know its risk, but there are enough sane voices that I can act crazy once in awhile :crazyeye:

I agree with everything except the worker. I think that we can wait on getting them hooked up.. We just want to secure them at the moment. I also don't think that the spearman is a necessity, but it would be nice.

When are maps tradeable?

Why not a worker? The sooner we get them the better.

Spearman would be nice, but we don't have them :(. Maybe a GS will come earlier.

true but improving the core's tiles are much more important (IMO) than getting those luxes connected.

Once those cities get a worker out. That will be their first task is to road back to the core. Also after most of the core has been improved then 1 to 3 workers could peel off and road to the luxes.

This will also allow time for a settler to get a city on one of those hills between the core & the luxes to get a free roaded tile.

Why not a worker? The sooner we get them the better.
I'm not sure those jungles will give enough food for a worker build that's why I said a temple. Plus the early culture influence and border expansion onto more dyes and 'nanas.

I'm with Tubby the key is getting squatter's rights on those dyes and that's about it for awhile.

I like the idea of the 'free' roaded tile in the hills. Very tricky.

In my thinking any worker we sent to the dyes would be 'lost' to us. I would have him start to try and develop down there. Hopefully allowing for greater food in the jungle or sheilds on the mountain so we could build that temple.

I'm not sure what effect our agricultural has on food production in Jungle, otherwise it's pretty grim.

Once the city is up and running I'd have it send its worker back to connect with roads, but until then - they are on their own.

Remember, I am a schizophrenically foolish non-MMer. I'm an IDEAS guy. I can't be bound by the pedestrian considerations of something actuall working.

KB

PS Tubby, are you getting any work done today? I know I'm not :goodjob:

Settlers are the best roadmakers in the game. ;)
Jungles are 1 fpt, 0 spt and best chopped in teams (IIRC 24 turns on a solo chop).
The only reason I can see sending an worker to the dyes is to rush a temple. Even that is somewhat suspect.

Settle the dyes and use workers to improve core. A strong core radiates power and if the frontline is undr pressure, the core can pump out fresh blood. That is IMO better than trying to build even strength all over. Us having that 4 turn set fac means, as stated before, we have the luxury of using an odd settler just to sit on a remote but valuable spot.
Good notes on the, non existing, military threat. I'll back the worker city as #3 completely.

I've come to agree withe everything Dagh just posted.

I would add that I would feel better if we could put a spearman in the dye city ASAP. Aside from its defensive prowess, if that is the first city they come across, our opponents may think we are wasting our resources. Maybe.

Besides, I bet gmaharriet can make some mean bananna bread :D
Only if it's banana-nut bread, but I think we have more than enough nuts around here for me to manage that. :p

everything is better with nuts, gma :crazyeye:

Since Ave. Joe uncovered a GH, I propose that the Western city of Jesterton be moved 1 SW to the position that is shown in the screenie below

I think moving Jesterton is a good idea.

Is the 'dye grab' slated for settler 5?

I also think that Jesterton may need to be a military city as well, at least until we get alphabet.

No settler #4, I thought....

Here's the order that I'm going by (yell if its wrong)
Settler #3 (the next settler) goes west to settle Jesterton on New City 2 in above pic
Settler #4 goes to the dyes
Settler #5 goes to incense
Settler #6 goes to hills south of Dunderhead
Settler #7 another core town
Settler #8 ivory

Other stuff might come up like iron. So this is a pretty liquid list right now.

Good plan Tubs. There looks to be a potenitally nice river spot in the darkness south of Jesterton too. Hopefully there's iron in dem dere hills!
Gotta love having all these rivers with our ag trait! :thumbsup:

Boy, I hadn't thought that far out Tubs. Looks good. I think I just had the number on my settlers wrong. Remember, I'm an IDEAS guy, making them work is up to the rest of you :D

I agree that city number four needs to go to the dyes. We might want to reserve city five for any out of the way iron we might locate.

I agree with Whomp that we can have several nice core cities along the Jesterton River valley.

We also need to explore the east branch of the Simpleton River. There are probably some nice locations down that way as well.

Settling order seems ok. Bugs point on iron is important. we went BW-IW for a reason. I still think iron is prio 1. That underscores the need for scouting our immediate surroundings. Iron might not be the only useful thing caught in the fog. Another scouting priority is finding that gap between continents and settle each side to control it and to get a foothold for future invasion (dom/conquest, right?).

I'm onboard... settling according to Tubby's proposal seems the way to go. How about that spot with the fishes in the east, do we want (a) town(s) there (not as a priority of course)

I'm thinking in light of recent developments to send the settler generated next turn to the dyes. Jesterton can wait another 4 turns IMO.

My thinking exactly Tubbs. Those dyes become very important, especially if they are the world's only source. I wonder how many other sole source resources there are?

Most likely the other continent has a lux we don't have, probably set up the same way (4 of them around a mountain). This was a good idea, Rik, if it's true. It will encourage trading.

I agree that the dyes city is the most important at this point. We don't know how close MIA is to grabbing the dyes, so we have to make sure we get there ASAP.

If we met them in the south, they don't know about the dyes yet. *crosses fingers*

True, but they saw us come from the north, so they'll probably head in that direction, now, and it's only a matter of time until they find the Dyes. They'd still have to build a settler and send it there, though. :hmm:

Maybe we would have time for Jesterton before the Dyes city.

I think the dyes are important too BUT

1) If they are south I am betting they haven't found the dyes yet.
2) We have a settler pump - they don't.
3) Popping that goody hut may be important - if it gives us another tech it could change our position in negotiations.

It's a 55/45 split in my mind - but I think we should plant Jesterton on the coast.

Actually in a PBEM, I don't think they know where we came from. Given that there is a coast, we may very well have come from the west.

Jesterton will be platned in the current location before the dye settle gets there but we need to get him on his way soon.

It is a very long trip. It will be even longer to get it hooked up. Longer still until we have a trade route to Greece. We'll need to get a set of workers heading in that direction.

Peapants should move east. We want to make them think we came from the west.

Oh very sneaky! Excellent idea!

Yeah, send the dye-guy next.

Does anyone know the math on how goodyhut techs are decided? Does it fill out one level before it goes to the next or what?

I think that the GH gives you a random one with the cheapest being the highest percentage

The first thing that is taken into consideration is the difficulty level. Usually anything Emperor or above won't give you a tech. Deity or above won't give anything but yokels. I think Rik et al. have set the difficulty level low. I propose going for all those goody huts as soon as possible.

Difficulty is Emperor.

If the city is planted 1 tile from it then it won't spawn barbs. We got WC from the one by Dunderhead.

Wow! I didn't know you could get techs at Emperor level. Could they have messed around with the editor?

No that's normal... I think that Diety and I know Sid don't give techs. If a city isn't founded within 1 tile radius of the GH there is a 65% chance on Emp. that barbs will spew.

Should we go for the Ivory?

First, I think we need to start the 'Clown Rivierra' with Jesterton, but maybe we should send the next settler down and grab the ivory.

I know its something of a gamble, but MIA seems pretty unwieldy at this point. They are slow to trade, they are worried about warriors in neutral territory. I think long-term relations with them could be problomatic.

With that in mind having a domestic source for as many lux as possible allows us to work from a postion of strength.

I know its a ways away. I know that eventually it would require respectable military forces to defend. But it is also a lux close to their territory - it might be an inviting military target that could distract them from a flanking attack at another point.

I just throw it out for discussion.

I will repeat, I think once the rax is up we need to send spearmen down to these southern posts.

But a southern port of call for the navy may be a real, long-term asset.

But a southern port of call for the navy may be a real, long-term asset.I haven't thought of that. That's a great idea. Rush a harbor in the south and forego the road back to civilization for now.

Although the road to the south might be beneficial to get our troops down there quicker since it looks like we might need it.

IMO it's impossible to defend. Our workers have to develop our core and roads to the south, through jungles, will take considerable effort. My guess is there is some ivory (or another lux) nearby our western or eastern edge that will be more easily defended. This map is balanced.

IMO it's impossible to defend.

I don't disagree, but go with me on this for a minute.

Based on their generally unimpressive preformance, their nervesnouss about Peapants in neautral territory :rolleyes: , their desire for AA detente, I think that a city near the ivory will drive them CRAZY!!!

They won't do anything about it during AA (it's outside the river after all), but it may be a very inviting military target in the MA. If we can make the sourthern ivory port a red flag to their bull, we could bleed them by defending it well.

IF, that happened it would be a tie-down for their military that would, perchance, allow us to strike elsewhere while their main force is focused on the ivory.

OR, if they ignore it, make it strong enough to be a raiding center.

I'm just playing devil's advocate for now.

This ISN'T worth it if it is going to slow down core development at an unacceptable rate. And aside from a portthe road would be necessary; that would be a long-term commitment.

But MIA seems unwilling to trade and slow to hesitant to expand. It would be POOR MANAGEMENT of our continent to let them have more than necessary.

Just trying to find ways to be a good steward of our recources (including ivory).

New proposed western empire

I think we may want to adjust our dye city to one of the northern dyes. With a temple we can get ALL of the dyes AND the banannas.

We could always put a fortified unit on the mountain and later a fortification. It would be a great place for artilery in the future.

I like the Clown Riveria plan. well done.

Here's something for future city placement discussion:

I think we should adjust the city que as indicated on the last city placement graphic.

We should keep city one as is. I think that 'city 3' should be moved to city 2. I think that would put the iron in our borders and we could start producing GS.

Assuming that placement, I wish I could see the looks on their faces when the stats reveal three cities in the next sixteen truns :eek:

SETTLER PUMP!! :woohoo:

With the save going on again, I think it's time for a renewed dotmap with all known land into it. I'll try to post something that way today.

So here's a blank dotmap (http://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/BlankDot.jpg) for you to toy with.
And an attempt at mapping the situation from my part:

http://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/KissDot1.gif

Dots that are white-centered are built, yellow-centered are recollected from this thread and blue-centered are new additions by yours truly. Of course this is an attempt, and I put the link to a blank one so that we might have another brave soul try his own.

If we are going to jump the palace, it would probably be best to do so at the Blue(Yellow) spot, and rebuild 2 towns to replace our old capital: 1 W-SW, 1 NE from its original spot.

[Edit] Sorry double post

Btw, I see no reason why not to make our 3rd city into a 4-turner as well: we've got land to settle. Once we have enough tiles and approach dom limit, we can build a few workers ;)

On a serious not though, I'd really make it a settler factory. It's just got so much pootential, why make it pump workers? other cities can do that, and if we really need workers, we can swap it back for a few rounds of 2T workers.

Or, for that matter, make our 1st and 2nd city a 4-turners with the wheat FPs and our 3rd city a worker pump working 2 FP and 3 BG. That would be almost gross, and with the crazy amount of other cities we'll have we probably will be able to sustain a large enough number of warriors to hold it, militarily.

One thing Beorn.... The dye city needs to be ON one of the dyes in order to claim them all. MIA is very serious about tit for tat. If we have all four dyes, it will give us more 'tits' to trade for 'tats'.

The preceding statement has no sexual conotation whatsoever and any seen has been purely placed there by the reader.

Here's the updated map. Thing of interest is we're the winos of this world.

I must disagree on the claiming things city positionning tit: one way or the other, all dyes are claimed.

However, while your method claims 3 in the 9 and 1 in the expanded radius vs 2-2 for mine, mine only needs 2 jungle tiles roaded, thus the way I put it.

The preceding statement has no sexual conotation whatsoever and any seen has been purely placed there by the reader.
I didn't even pick up on it until you wrote that sentence. :lol:

I think I'm the only female here, and please don't feel constrained by my presence. I realize that some restrictions are simply CFC policy, but I was a grown woman before I ever heard of PC, am much too old to feign innocence, and I don't offend easily. :p

You sound just like my own grandmother :D
- a compliment of course

I must disagree on the claiming things city positionning tit: one way or the other, all dyes are claimed.

However, while your method claims 3 in the 9 and 1 in the expanded radius vs 2-2 for mine, mine only needs 2 jungle tiles roaded, thus the way I put it.

Well, you need two jungles roaded to reach the city, but if you actually want to use a dye you have to road a third jungle anyway. So we could just as well get 3 in the 9 so that they're a little more difficult steal with aggressive settling, should it come to that at some point.

True, even with considering the fact we'll need to fully work the dyes tiles, we can get a 2-jungles road to the bananas and work 3 dyes and a banana correctly. Good observation :hatsoff:

I'll correct the decisions thread

On another note, since we have a signed, rock-hard peace going on in our friendly side of the world, I see no reason not to turn Dunderhead into a 4-turn settler factory (wheat FP for growth, all other tiles worked are BG's) and Ignoramus into a 2-turn worker farm (2 FP 3 BG's). That would mean building granaries in each of them ASAP, and would require us to pull a worker or 2 fast, but it could be hugely rewarding.

Objections ?

Very tempting idea B, but it's a gambit. If Nutters and TNT are having a go at eachother and the deal with MIA being what it is, then we may do this. I just don't like to have a weak, regular, military and pbem's (I have been told) usually results in early wars. Then again, I'm a rather (uber) careful player so...
2 4-turners would be the awesomest :D .

Ignoramus is meant to be a worker farm btw.

Side note: The Giant Robots of perfection is hillarious. Even more funny is that someone can takes it seriously. 16 000 posts and still coocking... :crazyeye:

I think that we need one military city. I think that the original plain (before disease hit) was to turn Jesterton into a settler factory of some sort. I was still going on this assumption. Since the rax isn't built yet we can swap the original roles of Dunderhead and Jesterton.

So change Dunderhead build from rax to a warrior for protection (8 shields accumulated next turn + growth shields so it might be 10). Then start on a granary. And get Jesterton started on a rax as soon as it's settled.

With Dunderhead working the wheat. we could as Beorn said, work the bgs to get it up to the correct shield count. I like this idea.

Jesterton will need to be worked too. mainly because our defense sucks right now. Jesterton's settler is coming out this next turn. It will be planted at the turn before the next settler comes out.

We'll have a LOT of military cities once we manage to pull 2 4-turners ;)

Could we knock out another worker instead of a warrior from Dunderhead? We could really use one.

not any more. The warrior will finish at the beginning of next turn. The reason I picked warrior instead of worker is due to the barb that was by Wild rower & Igor which has mysteriously disappeared.

The barb will likely show up @ beginning of nxt turn. Our settler party left him behind :D

if you look in CA2 with the sve that we sent to the Nuts. The barbs have already moved. So he didn't follow us. I don't know the barb engine very well. But I expect that either he is going after the Greek warrior or Dunderhead (undefended at the moment)

He only has 1 movement point too so he can't catch us until we plant the city.

not any more. The warrior will finish at the beginning of next turn. The reason I picked warrior instead of worker is due to the barb that was by Wild rower & Igor which has mysteriously disappeared.
Riiight. Bear with me today I'm a little slow (per my post in "musings")

if you look in CA2 with the sve that we sent to the Nuts. The barbs have already moved. So he didn't follow us. I don't know the barb engine very well. But I expect that either he is going after the Greek warrior or Dunderhead (undefended at the moment)

He only has 1 movement point too so he can't catch us until we plant the city.
OK, I don't have the CA2 so I can't see those kind of things post save :( .

Ok guys, this convo has been going back and forth, but if we want to do something we better agree to it:

YES or NO (and perhaps a few words)
Should we put up 3 food plants, so that we have a settler and a worker every 2 turns ?
That way we'd seriously overwhelm everyone and, anyways, by the time those workers (focused properly 1 city at a time) are out and have done their job, we'll have 3-4 very able core military cities at 7-8+ spt that can cope with our relative lack of military.

MIA is a passive sheep atm and I don't expect serious naval invasions THIS darn early.

My vote is YES

my vote is yes ....

I 've been steering the to-dos that way. Also how many workers do we want before Ignoramus gets a granary? I think that after this one it should start.

I vote YES with some trepidation. (Idiot in Chief should use big words every so often)

I don't think, as Ginger Ale told Tubby in his PBEM vs. GRS, that he should discount military. Let's be prepared to transititon one of these settler pumps into military if we see too much strength happening around us.

I vote yes, but I think we should take the next two or three plants and dedicate them to gettting the military up to speed.

Indeed, spices are even farther up of MIA than are dyes, they can wait. And there's just no way they'll get to the furs.

I'd take that risk that they won't get to the spices anytime soon too. Let's focus on the core for a little bit here.

So where were we: finishing a first circle (3 settlers), then going for spices and ivory (2), and finally going for a second circle ?

I think that we are working on the second circle now..... We can peel one off to head for the spices. Since we are planning on being at peace with MIA for a while, I'm not sure that we want to go for that ivory or will be able to get it.

IIRC, MIA's last city was ~ 8-10 tiles away from the ivory. Doesn't make sense to "steal" that away from them since we probably have one to the east. Also might foster good will if we point it out to them.

It's looking like we're going to have to go beat down TNT on the other continent since D'nuts are playing stoopidly

I'm hoping that once the 2nd circle settlers are running out we can get one of the 1st ringers on the pyramids.

Could the Hut Idiot post the latest dotmap please.

Could the Hut Idiot post the latest dotmap please.
Yes, very good idea. Just a regular map would be nice. With grids :D

The hut idiot will try and see to it, but his secretary is keeping him busy and you might want to consider him dead for a week, as he might not be that active. Lotsa shizzle acting in my family and well, I gotta say I didn't help it.

Here's my attempt. I've only added one city from BeF's old dotmap. I can zoom it in a little if anyone wants it.

What are the odds there are four luxes around that mountain to the northwest of the dyes city?

I saw that too.... It just so happens that the two spots where the luxes should be are still in the fog. :hmm:

Is Bernardo the settler going to steal the forest chop from Ignoramus?

it could. new town should be set to a wonder or palace to make it 100% sure that the chop goes to Ig.

Phew...I'm glad you're on this team Gman. I like the idea of a wonder just to freak teams out and make sure they're watching the ball. We should do ToA just cuz.

Sounds good to me

I'm against before we can consolidate a little. Just for a little bit, boys. Right now we could make another settler or 2, then set the food pumps to all make workers and really push our land a notch above theirs. Once that is underway we can start one or 2 wonders up front in their faces.

We've had discussions about how we needed to make sure our land was solid enough militarily before expanding further, and it applies here too IMO. As much as it might scare them for us to dual wonder, it might also push them to league against us - that's my RTS FFA PvP point of view.

What I propose is get to ~2.5 workers per city before we start wonders, so that we're all set with roads and our second ring cities start having life in them. That way, they can come with all they have and it won't seem much - we're just not sure how much trouble we can magnet our way with the wonders right now.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What I was suggesting is using it as a placeholder like Grahamiam suggested. However instead of a palace placeholder which is transparent we put up a wonder placeholder that will be gone once the chops are done.

i posted similar sentiments in the Mil Thread, so I totally agree with BeF. Too much expansion too fast is just asking for trouble.

edit: sorry, now I get it. BeF, it's just for 1 turn, to direct a forest chop or 2 towards Ignoramous, for the rax.

I'm not a good enough game strategist to have an opinion on we should be building, but BEF has a good point. The other teams are going to be jealous enough with our score now being #1 as it is. If we do decide to reset a build to a wonder during the forest chop, might it be a good idea to let at least MIA and Dnuts know what we're up to through the diplo channels??? TNT can just be confused, since they seem like like that state of mind so much. :p

It'll only be for one or two turns!!! after that it'll switch to a rax or a worker build prolly. We aren't building wonders.

Say it with me now.... We..... aren't...... building...... wonders.

I doubt that these guys are checking the wonder builds. They are definately not checking F11.

Having a pop-up saying we started building something would be hard to miss ;)

Sorry, I got carried away :p

So we settle our 2nd ring, the 3 other ressources, and go for the big bang o' consolidation ?

Having a pop-up saying we started building something would be hard to miss ;)Just think of the reaction we might get from the other teams though. :mischief:

BTW - I still think we need to build the Pyramids.

In two more turns we will have founded Polecat (City 7). Where to next?

According to the dot-map we have a city scheduled to be settled SE of SKWTD/ SW of Dunderhead. I would vote for that location for Notthefullshilling (city 8) in order to increase our holdings closer to the continental center.

OR

Perhaps settle on the wine two tiles west of Ignoramus (or 1 tile SE of that wine). It would give us a 'coastal warning system' to the east before anyone could reach Simpleton via boat. Something we know lack.

Actually, I might be leaning toward the coastal settlement...

OK, so we need clean cut periods for
1- Establishment: Found a few good cities and a few "colonies"
2- Consolidation: Build barracks, climb to around 20-25 workers
3- Fear induction: GS, Wonders, settle the whole fkin map and road that stuff up

Links to maps: dotted (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=125996&page=9) and not (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=128998&page=2)

1. What to settle ?
I'd like NE of Simpleton next.
S-S-E and S-S-W from SKWTD look good next, but I agree we need a coastal, and NE 1st ring looks good.

With Polecat, that's 4 additionnal cities. With Furs (pretty safe), Spices (might have a race) and Ivory (Can we ?) to settle, it's 7. Perhaps too many. My .02 we found Polecat, then NE for a coastal, then S-S-E from SKWTD. After that we send 3 to the ressources and stop that phase. That's 3/4 3/3.

Out of the 4 near and 3 luxes, perhaps we should just build 2/4 3/3 or 3/4 2/3. Or even 2/4 2/3. Opinions?

2. Just how many?
Barracks and workers for a while thereafter sound like no-brainers. Once those are built we can really push our core up and sustain whatever size our empire will get. At over 1.5 worker/turn, 10 turns and we're good to go until the later MA. I think we're better off with more over less; I definitely support the idea of building 15 workers straight up and then go settler/settler/worker back again.

3. Wreak Idiotic Havoc
GS, Colossus, Pyramids? Well, there's a pair of threads for that.

One of the coastals should build a harbour as soon as MM is in (prebuild?). Vet. galleys for defence (if they dare try) will be 1 unit killing 4 which is good economics. Also, we can trade luxes before jungle is roaded if MIA builds one too (old point recycled).

I think that Jesterton should be able to knock a harbor out by the time MM is discovered. If we get enough advanced notice we can pre-build for it.

I'd like the next settler to Down by the moutains on one of those hills. Then the one after that should (IMO) go for the spices. Then the ivory? by the eastern coast. I'm not sure if it's over there but I'm guessing.

We will have a settler next turn. We need to decide where this one is going. I think that there are barbs near the southern mountains so it'll need to be escorted if going there.

Hairy is busting some fog over to the east 1 or two more good cities can be placed over there.

Next to NE and after that the spices IMIO

Coast NE would be fine but could we get a comment on the rank corruption part, IIRC G-man had something to add to that. Is it too close to S-ton so that rest of core gets corrupted? We could send settler to mountains but hold him in D-head a few turns so he gets escort. Don't know what shields D-head is making ATM but it wouldn't take more than 2 turns, right?
If the NE of Simpleton is a GO, then my vote goes to
1.Coastal NE-don't need escort
2.Spices-get on the way asap
3. Mountains- escort ready by then

I was taking NE to mean N of Ignoramus. On the little pennisula up there.

Well then no probs with corruption :thumbsup: and it doesn't change my vote.

i'll see if I can drag my lazy ass to my 'puter tonight to get the save and take a look at the corruption effect of that proposed town just NE of the capitol (not the one NE of Ignoramous, but the one closer to the capitol). Or does civassist already do that?

Civ Assist will pre-calculate the corruption for a proposed city. Although I don't think that it will re-calculate the corruption for existing cities.

ok, i can do that http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/nerdplus.gif

Man, I love you engineers. :cry:

ok, here's the layout. not exactly sure what the settlement plan is yet, so I assumed the following:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/grahamiam/MTDG_cities.jpg

and the despot corruption calcs (note, rounding errors will occur so this is not exact, and it usually errs on the conservative side) but shows the detrimental effect of the black dot:

Town Despot Despot Republic Republic
Simplet 3.68% 3.68% 3.27% 3.27%
Black N/A 18.60% N/A 14.04%
Jestert 22.35% 26.03% 16.54% 19.80%
Dunder 29.78% 33.46% 22.30% 25.57%
Ignor 33.46% 37.13% 25.57% 28.84%
Effing 37.13% 40.81% 28.84% 32.11%
SKWTD 40.81% 44.49% 32.11% 35.38%
blue 51.99% 55.66% 40.38% 43.64%
purple 55.66% 59.34% 43.64% 46.91%
red 59.34% 63.01% 46.91% 50.18%
pink 66.76% 70.44% 52.68% 55.95%
yellow 74.19% 77.87% 58.45% 61.72%

note: calcs assume the following: all towns connected to palace by roads, no FP, no courts, founding order is blue, purple, red, pink, yellow.

G-man - prehaps another grab at the eastern lux mountain should be in order.

since that's further out, the corruption will only be higher. my dots just represent a guess of what I think the team will do for the 1st 10 cities, not beyond, and the effect of the black dot on them :) if the team wants one of the 1st 10 cities goes for that spot, then it's corruption will be higher than yellow, which is pretty corrupt already.

Being AGR we can grow faster than the rest, but what good is the extra population if we cannot keep them happy? So my vote is to capture the spices with the next settler, finish settling the core and grabbing the furs next.

I agree with Crakie & Bugs. Although the red dot would be nice to get with the next settler. We're going to need those luxes. It would have been nice to get an ivory too, but that's looking like a TNT/ MIA duolpoly. The next settler is due next turn so we need to have some direction before the next turn is played. The todo list is geared toward him going to the red dot.


note: blue dot will be settled next turn

Being AGR we can grow faster than the rest, but what good is the extra population if we cannot keep them happy? So my vote is to capture the spices with the next settler, finish settling the core and grabbing the furs next.
my map was not a recommendation on what cities to settle, just an analysis of the effect of the black dot (for info only).

edit: btw, how far away are these spices, and how do we intend on defending and supporting that turf?

spice city is exactly 7 tiles south of Dunderhead. That's if we settle on the NW spice. Ave. Joe is headed east and should be there in enough time to escort the settler and act as MP. Similar to Igor and Effing Whomping Rower

EDIT:: another point to consider.... Simpleton's borders will expand in 11 turns to cover that land

First, I say go for the red-coastal city.
Second, I'd say send a settler to Spice Mnt.
Thrid/Fourth, I'd go for the pink and yellow dots south of SKWTD.

I think that the furs are relatively safe, besides, we need workers to build up the core and road to get the lux anyway.

I can't do math so the Rainmen have obvious veto power, I'm just looking at the map and thinking of future conflicts.

Oh, and don't worry about Ivory. I think we will get some from the other continent's northern shore in good time :viking:

my map was not a recommendation on what cities to settle, just an analysis of the effect of the black dot (for info only).

edit: btw, how far away are these spices, and how do we intend on defending and supporting that turf?

I know, I know... It looks about right though, on first glance.

The black dot doesn't seem right to me, especially after Grahamian's analysis.

The red dot might be ok, but I'd rather settle on the hills in the east first (pink dot).

The blue dot should be 1 SE IMO, to give more tiles to be worked for core cities.

My order would be: spices, 2 more cities along our river (pink and yellow for example), furs, finish setlling the river.

Blue dot 1 SE would put it on a BG

black dot is now a :nono: IMO too

red dot does seem to be a little wrong for right now too. No one is planning on settling that area except us. There's no river there and would grow very slow.

Crakie once again has convinced me... but I'd like to go pink, spices, yellow, furs, finish up

why yellow over purple? purple has less corruption, better land, and secures iron. at 50% corruption, it could be up to 5spt after corruption at size 5 or 6. yellow will be stuck somewhere around 2 and 3spt till Republic and/or a court. if we're going to stretch for the furs, we better have decent towns to back it up.

aah ha!!! I'm an idiot.


Back on topic now.... I guess that purple is better. I was just looking for a city to road to from the dyes. I'm sure that can wait an additional 4 turns. So puple has replaced yellow.

Blue dot 1 SE would put it on a BG

black dot is now a :nono: IMO too



Oops... how about 1 S then? I would really like Dunderhead and Ignoramus to have a decent number of tiles to work on. I must admit I am too lazy to do the math... what we want is dunderhead and ignoramus (our best cities) to be able to work 12 tiles, because with that kind of land they will easily grow to pop 12. Upon re-inspection of the current position of the blue dot, they will probably make that and otherwise we can always keep the blue dot city at pop 7 (preferably not lower due to unit support, higher if possible).

Purple instead of yellow is fine, hadn't considered corruption :blush:

1 S is also a BG... there are actually a load of bgs around that river....2SE or 1 SE-1S is just a grassland. but I'm not too worried with the 12 pop Dunderhead being encroached upon. Anyways for a while Dunderhead will be squirting out workers quicker than the jack-rabbits in New Mexico.

@crakie: there's so much room in our core, those towns (dunderhead, Ig, blue, red, Jesterton, Simpleton, SKWTD, etc) will have no problem getting up to size 12 and all working 12 tiles.

I will still argue for the Red first. I know it won't be a monster producer, but I think that it would be good for stratigic reasons. It will serve as an early warning system on the east coast. Right now anybody could sail up to Simpleton and we wouldn't be able to respond.

Yes, yes. We could accomplish the early warning system with a warrior - but our cities are better at making settlers right now - and it would get us more wine.

The corruption has to be taken into account, but that is my rationale for red.

by delaying red till after blue (already done) and purple, you will insure that the shield heavy towns get the lower rank corruption. red will only be a fishing village (and not a bad one either with 2 fishes :) ) so it will be a good spot, but a lower corruption in the other 2 is important for unit production.

It will serve as an early warning system on the east coast. Right now anybody could sail up to Simpleton and we wouldn't be able to respond. Right now no one is sailing, at least not with troops aboard, and won't be for many moons. I think we can hold that one for the second wave of settlers.

Corruption trumps all at this point. I defer to the experts (and am learning a lot).

So what IS the next city to be settled?

Blue dot, then spices, then purple, then furs, then yellow. That's the path I'm going to take the todo unless someone posts other wise.

Well I'm the one with that mandate and I'm glad my questionning of last page led to a conclusion like that ;) Will be there and post in a sec.

B, when I said Purple I think that is your "blue" dot. It's a shame that guys don't have better color perception so that we can know what each other are talking about :lol:.

The Pink dot (one roughly in the center of the screenie) IMO should be after the yellow. The sole reason for that one is to get the spices hooked up quicker. I don't think that it will be necessary for a while yet. And at ~70% corruption it'll be just a territory expander mostly anyway.

The "blue" dot as gram has pointed out before would be sufficient to "back up" our fur city

When I understand properly I'll correct the main thread ;)

EDIT: done and done, as well as the heart-attack prevention measure.

I don't follow here :crazyeye: . Blue dot is already settled (Polecat) and the only blueish dot left is far W. The settler is going towards the red spot E of Ignoramus by the look of the save. Have I missed something? Is the settler taking a longer way to the spices just to intercept a warrior escort?
From latest post in Stupid Decisions:
1. What to settle ?
We'll settle
-blue dot
-spices
-blue-ish purple
-furs
-yellow.

@Dagh

Since we indeed settled the blue dot, the next settler should be going towards the spices now. I haven't checked the save, but that's what we agreed on.

Indeed it is for the spices, and I think the settler was waiting for a compagny too.

Oh crap guys.... When I played the save the settler looked as though it was headed to the read dot so it is headed that way now. I think that it would be quicker to wait 2 turns to get the next settler to move to the dyes.

Again, sorry. But the good news is that I saved a bunch on my insuruance with Gieko. I mean I have internet access here at the hotel all be it just dial up :( .

Hooray for having Geiko ;) and internet access! :dance:

not to jump too far ahead, but, sometime after furs, I'd like to get a city on the other side of the channel. Sometime being when we don't care about the corruption and after there are GS running amok

not to jump too far ahead, but, sometime after furs, I'd like to get a city on the other side of the channel. Sometime being when we don't care about the corruption and after there are GS running amok
I have to second the Admiral here. Establishing that beachhead will be critical to operations on the other continent.

I'd be up for the 1st settler after galleys goes across the chunnel. GS should be online then.

We need to be careful not having GS over there if there's not enough spears over the top. We don't want a despotic GA.

I agree with Whomp, no GS on the other continent at least until we're a republic and even then we might want to wait. Any chance we can snag a luxury over there?

Control over the channel
:woohoo: :band: :dance: :banana: :woohoo:
Then block it with state of the art naval units and make them, TNT/Nuts, go suicide if they try to invade. Then they have to come from the other side but we have a decent warning system there, right.

Gareed Daghie. "Naval blockade" even sounds cool. I think we control the channel with what 4 boat?

If we found on the other continent, there is a tiole exactly 4 tiles due W of "Polar Bear Club" or whatever booti MM'd my town to sound like ;)

Post with the big picture of the map over the channel (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3138155&postcount=19)

That implies that it's exactly a galley+GLH run over from a direct ferry with no movement lost for units, or a galley run with a unit move lost w/o. Or even, a caravel's direct move. Once we get to the MA, caravel+knights could make a very nice mix; before that GLH would have a reason to be conisdered.

As for the blockade, we need 6 fortified boaties on our side of the channel to make it impossible to cross with a galley, without GLH: from 2NW PBC to S-SW. With GLH for them it makes our job virtually impossible, with it for us it doesn't lower the amount of boats needed - but it does imply we can surround boats that would survive in the open.

We shouldn't exclude the possibility of a southern connection of the landmasses, which would make it impossible to blockade attacks.

We shouldn't exclude the possibility of a southern connection of the landmasses, which would make it impossible to blockade attacks. If I've got it right there is only this one plus the one down SE in MIA-land. An agreement could be made w MIA on blocking both those gaps.
About stray enemy ships surviving a suicide run I don't see that as such a big problem. The main point in blocking the gap is, IMIO, that we can prevent an enemy fleet from passing, thus making it difficult for them to do move troops in general be it for an invasion or just re-grouping.

I agree with Whomp, no GS on the other continent at least until we're a republic and even then we might want to wait. Any chance we can snag a luxury over there?I don't understand this logic at all. Why don't we just paint a target on our chest and give our cities over there away. If we go to the other continent, we go in force. Period. End of story. You think TNT and their immortals are going to throw a tea party for us? We need to land at least three GS with our first settler.

If we're going across, a despot GA is the least of our worries.

I think TNT will not attack one city built on their side of the gap. They would have a 2 front war with the fastest growing civ :nono:.
If we are concerned about not getting despot GA, but still have GS's around, we could wait settling until rep. is about 15 turns away. That is my estimate on how long it will take for them to notice and gather a force to attack. I even think we could settle w/o being noticed for some time because they are sending all their troops S and if they don't have a lookout...
We should be able to time the settlement with our change of government and still be first on that spot.
We're not forced to go slow burn on rep, right?

@Daghda: if we lose the city, + the units defending, we will have serious WW problems. I have to agree with Bugs: we are in no position atm to seriously consider holding on to an overseas city. Heck, what could we do if they land 5 Immortals in the next 10 turns? We mostly have warriors, so we'll be screwed. If they have knowledge of that area of the map, they will see the city once it's settled.

This port city can be a long term goal, but we need to do it seriously (and I'm thinking more like 15-20 GS's, not 3).

I agree with Grahamiam and Bugs. If they initiate war we will bring it to them. Right now lets get our cities (core) up and running, some workers working and our power developing. With our growth we will be able to outproduce them easily. I would hope for a scenario where we are twice as big as they are and they attack us. We cremate them during our GA in Repub and then land 20-30 GS on thier capital doorstep with a fleet.

@Dag, no we are not forced to do a slow burn on Republic, ut if we keep up the min run for too long, there's no way we could make it up.

@everyone, I think that the city across the gap is long-term goal. I agree that we should be over there in force and 3 isn't enough. 15-20 might be overkill but that's better than underkill right? Remember if the fireworks don't go off don't pick them up. Just run over them with another GS ;).

I think a Grahamiam level SoD(15-20) is required on the other continent before we ever consider aggressive settlement there.

To me if we are looking to control the gap then galleys will cost us considerably less than building a city that needs protection from out best unit. Let's remember TNT is ages behind in tech and could be a good 20-30+ turns or more from Map making. We're there soon.

Let's make this a long term goal once our military has filled in and hopefully avoid a despotic GA.

I totally garee that settling Our second continent is a long term goal. My only concern is we lose that strategic poit if we wait too long.
If TNT are using Immo's vs. Nuts they will soon trigger their GA and that will last for 20 turns. How much do have left on a mini run for Rep.? Isn't it so that they will be out of their GA at about the same time we have changed government? If they are some techs behind and have been at war for ages wouldn't that be a good time to move forward, assuming our GS's plants are up and running at that time?
I also suggest this will be a co-op with MIA. That would have the benefit of greater firepower as well as MIA have to move some troops off our continent. I think it would be unwise to ship the bulk of our military overseas w/o MIA doing the same. It could put naughty ideas in their heads.

I was just saying that IF the team wants to settle fairly quickly on the other continent, I think we should hold off the GS before reaching republic. Whether settling there soon is actually worthwhile is another question; I haven't quite made up my mind on it to be honest.

Fact of the matter remains that those cities won't be easy to defend - bringing a sufficiently large stack of GS or defenders will stretch our resources too much. Our core is more important than a couple of far away cities. So IF we settle over there, we take for granted that they won't be defended that well, gambling on the fact they have other interests to pursue than attacking us.

Here is a view of how our cross channel operations should work:
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9892/englishchannel8ht.jpg

After playing Turn 58 I think we are in need of a new dotmap. The only two left are yellow dot, furs and black dot(which I don't like that much anyhow). I think we need to look at a map for our FP and it's cities. Somewhere in the middle and that can grow because it may be the palace someday with a leader.

imho, if we are out of dots, then stop building settlers for a little while. turn the capitol into a worker factory and get ~30 built. get the core up to snuff by improving tiles and joining workers to the cities (we need as many size 7+'s able to produce 10 or 13/13/14spt (or 20 :D) as possible. get the luxes connected to drive down the lux tax, and build military (GS's). after we get the core set or get up to 30 or so workers, then turn the pump back on so we can support our burgening troops.

Totally agree Grahamium. We need that lux and workers are the only way. I think after the next 2 settlers (8 turns) I even like going for the Pyramids. Once the road to lux is complete we can backfill using the roads.

BTW - We have 10 workers. While looking at the unit screen I see that TNT started the war by capturing a worker.

IIRC our mid-term plan on that side was to turn the settler pumps into worker pumps at right about this point, make an obtuse mass of workers (10 or more, more) and after that, go wild with wonders. By that point we'll have several top shape cities around and the odd settlers we'll put on the field will walk roads. Of course, the pyramids sound like the natural wonder to build first.

Also, has anyone heard of an ETA for litterature?

There are a couple of cities left to go to the east..... Cutting off the settlers and going for workers sounds fine to me. That means that we will have 2 2-turn worker pumps going.

I think that Simpleton's workers should be added to other cities and Dunderhead's be used to improve the land. We already have most of the tiles that are currently being worked improved.

We are now due to go on that plan of re-opening the settler valves, turning Simpleton, Dunderhead and Ignoramus into settler pumps, the rest of the empire making military units.

Brand new dotmap attempts - feel very free to rebuff and criticize, that's the whole point.

Western empire, w/o radiihttp://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/DotW.jpg

Eastern Empire, w/o radiihttp://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/DotE.jpg

Western empire, w/ radiihttp://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/RadW.jpg

Eastern Empire, w/ radiihttp://archimede.mat.ulaval.ca/~fbolduc/B/RadE.jpg

"Western Empire," "Easter Empire." I like that :D

I Think that this sounds like the route to take. Just a few questions...

1) Do we need to build the Forbiden Palace now?
2) Are we building GS without rax?
3) Should we be throwing spearmen into the mix (cheaper defense)
4) Is there a city building priority or just throw one settler west, then east, then west, then east?

imho, 3 settler pumps is too much. at least 1 of those (probably the capitol) should be a GS pump. I suggest that the capital be a GS pump because, being the lowest corrupt city, it can easily have the most spt and bpt. Having a large capitol (as large as our happiness allows) will benifit the empire more than having another city get large.

here's the plan for our new settler. 2 workers are assigned to start improving the area. Those 2 can of course be separated to prevent loss of worker turns.

From the war planning thread:

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The following screenshot is saved in my personal webspace, so as to avoid the risk of getting compromised by loading it on CFC. I apologize for the size and bytecount.

Discussion to follow.

http://members.atlantic.net/~briant/C3screencaps/MTDG_KISS_Plan.jpg

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