6.5 Turn Reporting

Every time a team completes a turn, the team should notify that the save has been sent to the next team in line in the "Turn Tracker". This rule should be considered as important as the 24 hour rule, in order to sustain same rule.

Provo, can you explain why you think the bureaucratic element should be considered as important as the "play quickly" rule? (Please try to be short in your answer... :P )

There is a big difference in "not being able to play because the save was not send in time" and "Not being able to play because the previous team hasn't updated the turntracker yet". Yes, it can be annoying if you have the save and don't know it; but that's no reason to make posting in the turntracker as important as actually playing it.

The only importance the turntracker has (besides being informative on "where is the save") that I see is that the receiving team know -without checking their email- that they have the save. I, as outsider, think we can be lenient with your proposed rule. It's not that life-threatening if a turn-tracker update is not done the same second the save is send out. Of course it would be preferable; but a failure in this once in a while should be acceptable. We're humans...

I'm sure this is because of me. :D As Rik has said, I am only human. Enough said. The play got played twice after I forgot to post in that thread. So far there has been no problem WRT the playing of the save once that has happened, so it seems that this rule you propose is not neccessary.

I don't see the need... Because everyone DP will have a few times that he/she misses posting and then gets warned or worse....

Yes, this was done in order to balance out the 24 hour fascism.
It is equally important to post in the turn tracker.

The reason it is important, is for CoC reasons, so the rest of the team know the game is played and sent, so there is no need to play it. I hope people understand this more than they condemn me for "bureaucracy". It has to be this way.

The reason it is important, is for CoC reasons, so the rest of the team know the game is played and sent, so there is no need to play it. I hope people understand this more than they condemn me for "bureaucracy". It has to be this way.

There are two reasons the tracker is needed, the "sent it" reason to one's own team that you mention and to prompt a team to look at their mail. Most of us are probably conditioned to check the mail automatically whether the tracker is posted or not. The "sent it" mechanism could be policed by the team(s) which need it, so it wouldn't need to be a rule.

The above comment is my opinion and doesn't necessarily reflect the team's view.

I think the turn tracker is essential in meting out evidence for emails sent and so on in order to prove officially a save was sent to the recipient at a given time. It is not too much to remember, to write one line. It should be a rule, as we are supposed to post there.

Regardless of what the opinion in this thread is, Provolution requested an amendment to the rules, and it will be voted on.

The amendment has been changed to include a time restriction!

Current rules:
6.0 - Turn Progression


6.1 - Time allowed for a turn

Every team has a maximum of 24 real world hours to play its move and to send the save. This does not mean, that every team must use all 24 hours.


6.2 - Extensions to time limits

6.2.1 - Limitations

In some cases a team is allowed to take more time for a move:
a. If the request is announced in time, which means before the requesting teams turn limit has expired, and if the game staff deem it reasonable.

or...
b. Technical problems, like a downed forum (verified by the game staff).

6.2.2 - Authority

The Game Staff will determine how much extra time is appropriate for the situation, if any.

6.3 - Sending the Save Game

Each team turnplayer is required to send the save to the citizens on his team via email, unless they do not want it. A thread entitled "Save Game Mailing List" will be put up in each forum. Each citizen who posts his/her email in that shall receive the save game upon its arrival in the mailbox of the team turnplayer.

A copy of sent save games will also be sent to the admins via email to the following addresses:
ale.of.ginger AT gmail DOT com (Ginger_Ale)
TitanicWhiz18 AT comcast DOT net (RegentMan)

6.4 - Passwords

Do not give out your passwords! The only time the password should be given out is via email along with the save game (to the citizens on the save game mailing list). The password for the save given out by the admins is confidential and random, and should stay that way.

Proposed amendment (changes are in bold italics):
6.0 - Turn Progression


6.1 - Time allowed for a turn

Every team has a maximum of 24 real world hours to play its move and to send the save. This does not mean, that every team must use all 24 hours.


6.2 - Extensions to time limits

6.2.1 - Limitations

In some cases a team is allowed to take more time for a move:
a. If the request is announced in time, which means before the requesting teams turn limit has expired, and if the game staff deem it reasonable.

or...
b. Technical problems, like a downed forum (verified by the game staff).

6.2.2 - Authority

The Game Staff will determine how much extra time is appropriate for the situation, if any.

6.3 - Sending the Save Game

6.3.1 - Mailing

Each team turnplayer is required to send the save to the citizens on his team via email, unless they do not want it. A thread entitled "Save Game Mailing List" will be put up in each forum. Each citizen who posts his/her email in that shall receive the save game upon its arrival in the mailbox of the team turnplayer.

A copy of sent save games will also be sent to the admins via email to the following addresses:
ale.of.ginger AT gmail DOT com (Ginger_Ale)
TitanicWhiz18 AT comcast DOT net (RegentMan)

6.3.2 - Notification of Playing
Immediately after the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread.

6.4 - Passwords

Do not give out your passwords! The only time the password should be given out is via email along with the save game (to the citizens on the save game mailing list). The password for the save given out by the admins is confidential and random, and should stay that way.

UN reps - Please set up a poll in your team's private forum and report the results in this thread. Your team has 72 hours to discuss the amendment and vote.

These are the voting options:

Option 1 - Yes, my team approves this amendment.

Option 2 - No, my team does not approve of this amendment.

Abstain

I think the turn tracker is essential in meting out evidence for emails sent and so on in order to prove officially a save was sent to the recipient at a given time. It is not too much to remember, to write one line. It should be a rule, as we are supposed to post there.Don't misunderstand me; I do agree that posting on the turn-tracker should be done.

As I've pointed out that failure to play a save within 24 hours hinders the speed of the game, always.
Failure to post a message in the turn-tracker does not neccesarily. We've seen this happening in this game.

What I don't understand is why the "post in the turntracker" rule should get the same importance as "play within 24 hours" rule.

-------------------

6.3.2 - Notification of Playing
After the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread. -> A team can never fail this. Theoretically a team can post a "Save send to TEAM-XXX" 7 years after it was done and thus not fail to follow the rules.

Perhaps I should just keep quiet and don't interfere with game mechanics

6.3.2 - Notification of Playing
After the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread.
-> A team can never fail this. Theoretically a team can post a "Save send to TEAM-XXX" 7 years after it was done and thus not fail to follow the rules.

Yes, that's true. However, it would violate the spirit of the rule. Everyone knows what the rule implies - post that you've played it when you've played it. I hope that no team would abuse this by posting seven years later.

After the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread. I assume even if the team played the save, say within an hour, they still are allowed to post the "turntracker" within thier 24 hour time limit. Correct?

I'm inclined to say yes, but that might result in M.I.A posting they've played, then Doughnut, then K.I.S.S., then Doughnut, with TNT saying they've played the first turn...

Should I add in something about posting right after sending the save?

I guess so RegentMan.
Would it be possible to post penalty as well. It seems to me that some leniency should be allowed on this rule versus the actual play of the save but that's just my .02. I think that may determine how some vote on Team K.I.S.S.

Due to recent circumstances, the amendment now looks as this. I'm terrible sorry for any inconvience this causes. The 72 hour deadline will be determined from this post.

6.3.2 - Notification of Playing
Immediately after the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread.

Can I just say as an individual (as I am not the UN rep) and not representing MIA in anyway ... an individual who enjoys pbem games ... and have been frustrated by non-posting on some game's thread and the stalling and confusion this has led to ...

It is standard protocol in 'good' pbems to notify a save being sent in the game's thread ... in addition to informing all players the status of the save ... it also can alert a team that an e-mail has not arrived and consequently has to be resent ... these things do occasionally happen ...

Yes fe3333au, it is a common PBEM standard to post when you've played the turn, didn't receive a sent turn, etc.

Would it be possible to post penalty as well. It seems to me that some leniency should be allowed on this rule versus the actual play of the save but that's just my .02. I think that may determine how some vote on Team K.I.S.S.
It will be decided the same way as the save: depends on the circumstances. If you forget to post once or twice, okay. But multiple times can result in skipping a turn.

Been there and done that Fe3333au and I am in full agreement that it should be posted.

What I am concerned about is the level of penalty. Nothing will create more animosity inside a team if one player forgets and the team loses a turn. I don't think that is in the spirit of this game either.

Just like a turn's instructions of "move the worker to tile X," it should be engraved in a DP's head to post that their team has played and sent the save. If a member can't remember to do that, then I suggest that person not play the save.

I know it might sound harsh, and I apologize if it does, as that is not my intention. If a member forgets once, it's okay. I'm sure that he/she won't forget again. I won't bust out the whip on poor Johnny if it's his first time playing.

I agree that we should have a target time for sending the turn and posting, but like others I have some reservations about possible penalties.

Do you skip people's turns in individual PBEMs because they are slower than the others? I can see this if someone disappears without warning, but not on a regular basis. The real place a penalty would be used is when a team is maliciously holding up the game, for example when in a losing position.

K.I.S.S. abstains.

Yes, this was done in order to balance out the 24 hour fascism. Fascism? :eek: ! My God you're going fast.

WE do not have to punish the entire team for not posting in the turn tracker. This could very well be an individual punishment for repeated offenses, a personal warning initially done in public and private mail (we need this rule for the moderators to enforce it), however, we may put in place a personal quarantine for playing the save if it seems it is an individual problem, yet, if a team abuse ths rule by conssciously omitting the turn tracker posting in order to gain time and obfuscate the game, a slight team punishment may even be in place.

A first mistake/offense could be a slight hint, warning, advise and so on to the individual and team (personal warning, team advise).
Several could lead to a personal quarantine and where it severely messes up the game for other teams, a potential punishment could be considered for the team (maximum one skipped turn). This is a small rule, with small punishments, but critical to enforce for the accountability, documentation and public information of the game.

I think we need the penalty system in place before the votes passes. Remember, this is still a discussion, where we all need to work out a better ruleset.

I wonder if there are any valuable inputs on how to secure the turn tracker verification that most team members need in order to be certain who is holding the game.
If no one wants a rule here, we can as well remove the turntracker altogether.

The problem with this rule is that it is making posting in the turn tracker as important as playing the save, and thus any punishments as harsh. While it is good to post in the turn tracker, the most important thing is that you have played the save and sent it on. That is where each team should be mainy worried about. The turn tracker is needed by it is not vital to playing the game. It is best that the DP post in the turn tracker, so we can see the progress of the game.

Often people agree to do something without making it formal. Sometimes a formal agreement is required. There is no question that posting in the turn tracker should be required, so what we seem to be struggling with is how formal this needs to be.

I agree it should be second nature to post GPS on the thread ... some of us rely on the thread's posting report to inform of a save being received ...

I'd also suggest that saves can sometimes be sent and not turn up ... a GPS message can alert teams of this ...

and just to add another bent on the discussion, I would suggest that to make it important to post on the Tracker Thread, you could set the timing from notification on the thread ... this way all teams have access to this information

I think K.I.S.S is all for posting to the tracker. What we are concerned about is the degree of the penalty. Taking a turn away is mighty harsh. I have not discussed this with the team but taking some gold away after a few warnings would be less harsh but still enough to make sure it's done.

I am talking taking a turn away if someone fails to use the tracker 5-10 times.
If it gets messy in the tracker, the entire game will take a major dive.
Repeat negligence in the tracker definately deserves a lost turn, no doubt about it.
Yet, one or two mistakes is easily forgivable, please do not try to distort my message.

There are ten hours left in the voting period. The deadline is at 10:50am on Aug 14, 2005 PDT (GMT -7).

So far, here is how the voting stands:

Team Doughnut -
Team TNT -
Team M.I.A. -
Team K.I.S.S. - Abstain

Doughnut's poll doesn't close until 3:15 PM forum time Sunday.

TEAM TNT support this rule and vote yes, according to our poll.

So far, our poll shows us abstaining, but this is not final yet. The opoll is not finished yet on our forum.

MIA abstains.

With two teams abstaining, this amendment cannot get the 2/3 majority required to pass.

The teams are highly, highly encouraged to post in the turn tracker thread when they play the save, but there won't be any admin-given consequences if they fail to do so (other teams may lose respect for you, sometimes an even worse punishment).

If the admins cannot handle this, I am sure the immortals will :D

Not that it matters (given the abstentions), but Doughnut votes yes.

TNT votes yes as well...

I would suggest that Teams MIA and KISS amend the proposal to their heart, and we rerun it, since we are so close to get 3/¤ or unanimity.

I say we rewrite this and include it.

KISS won't vote again. It's silly to re-run the vote. You've achieved > 66% that is needed to amend the rule. What you might not have is a quorum. Just because two teams abstained doesn't mean NO. It just means that we either don't care if it is changed or not or for some other reason we chose not to pick a side.

KISS had a unanimous vote to abstain.

5.2.2 - Procedure

An existing rule may be amended or removed after successfully receiving a two-thirds (2/3) majority vote of all remaining teams, which shall be defined as those teams still participating in the current games as well as those teams still eligible to compete in the final game.
There is nothing about a quorum. But I think that since everyone voted, we would have had a quorum.

All that it says is a 2/3 majority vote. Hypothetically, if TNT voted no and Doug H. Nuts voted yes then it would only be 50% and no rule change. But since both of you voted yes then that is 100%. Abstentions are just that "abstain from voting".

That rule states that a 2/3 vote of all remaining teams is required, so abstentions and failures to vote count the same as no votes.

edit: Maybe, however, you could repoll this in your forum, assuming that your team thought an abstention would not be counted as such.

All right, then it passes with 100 %, since there is no quorum in the rules.
As we pass this, I may suggest we introduce a 75 % quorum rule for reference.
That could be a separate proposal.

Additionally, Abstain should not be a camouflaged no, it is simply Abstain from voting.


The rule passes.

Additionally, Abstain should not be a camouflaged no, it is simply Abstain from voting.
OMG, I agree with Provo??? something must be wrong. I'm going to go get re-calibrated. :crazyeye:

Sorry Bootstoots, if that was MIA's understanding of abstain, then it's up to Regent to see if you can vote again. But it really wouldn't matter if MIA votes no it's still 2/3.

I agree that abstain shouldn't be a camoflauged no, but the way it's worded now, it unfortunately is. I think I'll make a rule proposal shortly to change that situation.

BTW, I'm with Doughnut, but would favor an MIA repoll if they want to.

Assuming this has passed, how many times can this happen before a penalty kicks in? I am against a rule that is subjective when there's a penalty attached.

In light of recent events, this rule amendment has passed with a 2 yes and 2 abstain vote. Abstain does indeed mean "abstaining from voting," and hope that this ruling establishes that.

Here's how the rule reads now:

6.0 - Turn Progression


6.1 - Time allowed for a turn

Every team has a maximum of 24 real world hours to play its move and to send the save. This does not mean, that every team must use all 24 hours.


6.2 - Extensions to time limits

6.2.1 - Limitations

In some cases a team is allowed to take more time for a move:
a. If the request is announced in time, which means before the requesting teams turn limit has expired, and if the game staff deem it reasonable.

or...
b. Technical problems, like a downed forum (verified by the game staff).

6.2.2 - Authority

The Game Staff will determine how much extra time is appropriate for the situation, if any.

6.3 - Sending the Save Game

6.3.1 - Mailing

Each team turnplayer is required to send the save to the citizens on his team via email, unless they do not want it. A thread entitled "Save Game Mailing List" will be put up in each forum. Each citizen who posts his/her email in that shall receive the save game upon its arrival in the mailbox of the team turnplayer.

A copy of sent save games will also be sent to the admins via email to the following addresses:
ale.of.ginger AT gmail DOT com (Ginger_Ale)
TitanicWhiz18 AT comcast DOT net (RegentMan)

6.3.2 - Notification of Playing
Immediately after the save has been played and e-mailed to the proper people, the team's designated player must notify the MTDG community by posting in the designated "Turn Tracker" thread.

6.4 - Passwords

Do not give out your passwords! The only time the password should be given out is via email along with the save game (to the citizens on the save game mailing list). The password for the save given out by the admins is confidential and random, and should stay that way.

@Whomp - You don't need to worry about punishments. A team will need to not post in the thread multiple times in order for one to be warranted. I understand that people make mistakes.